Episode Summary: In this episode, hosts Jen and Leekei explore the mindset of climate change deniers alongside the fatalistic views of those convinced that mitigating climate change is beyond our control, uncovering surprising similarities and discussing potential pathways forward.  

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Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up! 

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang and Jenn Swanson. 

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France.  

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves.  

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater. 

Hi, I'm Christina.

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I'm from Prague.

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Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

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Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

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Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

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Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

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Welcome to Carbon Sessions.

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A podcast with Carbon Conversations

for every day with everyone

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from everywhere in the world.

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In our conversations, we share ideas,

perspectives, questions, and things we

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can actually do to make a difference.

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So don't be shy and join our Carbon

Sessions because it's not too late.

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Hi, I'm Leakey.

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Hi, I'm Jen.

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The subtitle of the Carbon Almanac is,

It's not too late it's not too late.

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and this is very, very important

because this week I read something

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that completely blew, my mind.

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The idea is that being doom and

gloom about the climate is as

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bad as being a climate denier.

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That completely blew my mind, this idea.

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A climate doom, doomsayer is the

same as being a climate denier.

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No, I'm not saying that it's the same as,

um, I say that it's just as bad as, it's

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just as bad as being a climate denier.

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So what did they say

the reason for that is?

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Why?

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The reason is that when you are

a climate obviously you don't

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believe in climate change.

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Therefore, you just keep on living your

life, keep, you know, keep living the

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life as it has been, and then keep on

consuming and, uh, as if it's endless,

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it's the whole thing will never end.

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But where's been a climate doomist?

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And gloomist.

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I think you just invented a new term.

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A doomist and gloomist.

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Is that the same thing?

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Yeah.

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Somehow make us being hopeless.

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That means that We have

no faith in the future.

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No matter what we do, we are

doomed and the future is gloom.

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So, so one of them is

there's no such thing, right?

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There's no such thing as climate change.

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There's seasons, everything shifts around.

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It's all going to be fine

because it always has been fine.

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Blah, blah, blah, that

sort of whole thing.

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And then the doom and gloom is

Where it's so bad you've given up.

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Yeah.

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We know that the climate is

changing, but it's so bad that

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there's nothing we can do about it.

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Yeah.

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Is the theory.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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And so when you think that there's nothing

we can do about it, what do you do?

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Nothing.

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Nothing.

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Hey.

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So you do nothing on

purpose in the first one.

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You do nothing because you don't think

there's anything that needs doing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And the second one is you do

nothing because you feel there

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is nothing you can do this.

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It's worth doing.

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Yeah.

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It's worth doing.

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Okay.

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That makes sense.

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I wonder what people think about that.

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And so, so there's all the in between.

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You know, all the, yes, there's

climate change and what can each

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of us do about it or what can, or

there's people who panic about it.

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I know it's a big, you know,

there's climate anxiety.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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There's, that's a real thing.

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And so then these are sort of

two ends of the spectrum, maybe.

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Uh, yes, these are the

two ends of the spectrum.

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And, uh, I think it's very important

to be in between those two and, uh,

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And plus, it's fun to be hopeful.

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Well, sure it is.

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Well, but what do you, what happens if

you have somebody in your life who is

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either a doomist and gloomist, I love

that term, or a denier, what do you do?

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How do you talk to them?

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I think deniers, they are, they are not,

There are not so many deniers anymore.

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I think that, um, it's, uh,

it has become a consensus, at

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least where I live in France.

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Uh, climate change is a real thing.

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I mean, people believe it's a real

thing because it's a real thing.

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So there are not so many climate deniers.

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Um, I don't know how it is

on your end of the world.

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Um, I'm not, I think, you know, it

seems to run in North America along

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political lines, which is kind of weird

and, and it seems to really, cause

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as if it has to do with who you vote

for, it has nothing to do with that.

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Um, you know, it's science.

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And reality, and it's really, but

it seems to run along those lines

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in some places, not everywhere.

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Oh, interesting.

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And it's, um, it's really, it's hard for

me to say, I am still seeing people with

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their ginormous trucks, huge vehicles.

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Um, running their vehicles in the parking

lot, waiting for someone to grocery shop

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and they keep their vehicle running cause

it's cold out or it's hot out or whatever.

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, and I just want to bang on the

window and say, what are you doing?

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Um, but so I still see that.

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And I also right now live in

a town where, you know, almost

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everybody has a massive truck.

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And, you know, we're, we're unusual with

our little dinky putt putt cars, one

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of them being an ancient electric one.

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I mean, there are other people who are

concerned definitely about the climate.

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Um, where I live, but it, it seems

like it's not a consensus here and

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it's less of a consensus even with

our neighbors to the south in the U.

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S.

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So it's, um, I don't know.

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I think it's a challenge.

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It's not, there are

more people, hopefully.

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Coming on on board in

the middle somewhere.

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Yeah, but you, you say that you keep

seeing people with the big, big, big,

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big car and having the engine on.

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And you just assume that those

might be climate deniers.

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But what about if they.

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understand what climate change

is about, but they believe they

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could be different options.

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Actually, they believe it's

this, the it's not their problem.

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I mean, in the sense that there's

nothing, it's not their problem.

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They didn't create the problem.

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Therefore they to bring the solution

or those people believe that the

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future is doom and gloom anyway.

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And so they are trying to live

the, what they call quote unquote,

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the best life by buying the most

biggest and most polluting car.

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You see what I mean?

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Is that, you know, when you, you

think that there's no future and

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you think it's, Oh, we might be

the last generation of humanity.

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Well, and I don't want to, I don't want

to say that I think that every single

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person who has a big truck is a, you

know, is at either end of the spectrum

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because there are lots of reasons why

you need a truck, especially if you're

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working in an industry where you need one.

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No, I'm just, I, I, I just think

that, that there are, I mean,

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and there, the other thing to

note is that I have seen more.

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Well, I have seen more Teslas

than, you know, you go on

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the road and it's a game now.

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How many Teslas can I see on this drive?

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You know, which means there's a lot of

people with a lot of money for one thing,

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but there are a lot of, there is a lot

more electric infrastructure going in.

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Um, it's popping up at malls

almost everywhere you go.

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You can plug in a car, um, which is good.

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Um, and there are even gas

stations that are getting into it.

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There are gas stations that are

putting in charging stations

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and, uh, and things like that.

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So that, it, it is moving in that

direction, but I would not say

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we're at a consensus by any stretch

of the means in the North America.

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Yeah.

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So coming back to your question,

who do you say to people that are,

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um, on either end of the spectrum?

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So to me, climate deniers, I

haven't met so many lately.

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Um, those who believe that the future

is, there's no future, basically

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that we are doomed to, we might

be the last generation or that the

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future will be very, very bleak.

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Um, what did I say to them?

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I said, no, I tried to look at the,

at the right things because they are,

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they'll, I, yeah, I believe that if you

decide to look at the positive things in

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life, you will see the positive things.

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If you decide is to look at

the negative things, you'll see

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all the things that go wrong.

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So to those who believe that there

is nothing we can do, I just held

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them to, to move from the states of,

oh, there's nothing to, you know,

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to the state from the state of.

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been very negative about everything to

help them move to, to be in the positive

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mind and help them see things that are

positive and things that are happening.

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Like, I don't know, I keep seeing

all these good things happening.

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Okay.

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I think probably it's easier when

you live in Europe and particularly

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in the front in Paris, but, um, but

everywhere in the world, there are

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positive things about climate change.

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And, um, even though it's still It's,

um, yeah, we are currently, , we

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talking about this earlier that the,

the, the web is very strange lately,

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but yeah, even though we are currently

in a very, very weird weather, um, but

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climate change, we have not reached

the, um, , the tipping point yet.

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So, there's still things we can do.

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Still, there's still hope.

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And I think it's where, where your

attention goes, your energy flows, right?

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That, that statement.

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Um, and so what did it, what

is it you're focusing on?

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It's like the algorithm

of your life, right?

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Yeah.

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I like that.

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You focus on.

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Yes.

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And so if you're, if you're only thinking

in those two ways, um, and, and not

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to be Pollyanna about it, not to be.

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Um, you know, rainbows and unicorns,

but, um, there is a reality there,

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there are things that are suffering,

but here's a couple of interesting

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things I learned this week.

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One of them is that we actually in, uh, in

the Pacific ocean near, near our province,

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they have discovered a coral reef.

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Which they didn't know existed like a

coral reef, like you would see in, you

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know, in, in a warmer place that has all

the beauty and all the creatures and all

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the animals and the fish and the color.

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And they're just amazed.

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And they only just discovered

this like recently.

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And so there's a big flurry all

about that because what's that mean?

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So they're, they're looking at this.

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It's very, very far down in the ocean.

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Um, and so it doesn't have light to it.

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So it was accidentally found

when someone was with a

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submersible down there, I guess.

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But it looks exactly like some of the

ones we see elsewhere in the world.

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Just as beautiful.

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Only people can't go to it unless they're

in a submersible or they're doing it.

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remotely.

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So that was kind of neat.

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So there's things we're still

discovering, which I think is wonderful.

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And the other thing I heard about is,

and I only heard this briefly, um, in

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passing, but they are doing research now.

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They've discovered a whole bunch of other

mammals that go through menopause and

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they are researching whales and whales

do, and they're researching it and, and

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all the things that, and I thought, well,

that's maybe we'll learn from the animals.

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Like learn more, um, about how we're more

similar than dissimilar in many ways.

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And I think that's

always a positive thing.

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I think nature and, and creatures.

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Um, can teach us so much if we

are willing to listen, you know?

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Oh, I believe that we are just one

species, like any other animal, just

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that, yeah, we have our own set of rules,

our own, uh, communication, uh, rules

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and languages and, um, and pattern of,

of life, but we're just one species.

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This is what I believe.

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I, I do too.

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And I think this, you know, being in

charge of all the other species has

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put us into a really bad position.

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Uh, this whole.

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What makes you think, what

makes you think that we are in

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charge of all of the species?

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Exactly.

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I think we'll live in,

we'll live together.

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We are not, we, I mean, we

believe that we're in charge.

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And we have some responsibility, but

maybe they're in charge of us as well.

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Well, you know, and, and I think

our indigenous, uh, uh, siblings

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are, you know, have been well

aware and living in ways that were

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much more respectful and gentle.

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Yeah.

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And, uh, and yes, they hunted and ate and

they always gave thanks and used every

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single piece of the thing they hunted

and ate, you know, there was, there was.

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There was just a different level of

respect going on for the world around.

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And I think we have a lot to learn

from, um, the indigenous peoples

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of, of the lands that we live in.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah, I like, I like your point

of saying that there's still things

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that we are, we have discovered

recently and things we like to learn.

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learning.

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So yeah, maybe based on a few elements

that we know today that, um, we don't

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change the way we live, we consume

the future might not look so bright,

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but that a few things we can change.

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Uh, we can change, um,

individually, but also as a society.

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So those are the things that we

can change and then the discovery.

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Learnings.

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Yeah.

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I love it.

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I love that summary, Leaky.

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Yeah.

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So.

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I'm not.

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I, I, I also love your terminology,

so I'm not going to use that.

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Well, I don't know if you noticed, but

I keep inventing terminology on the fly.

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That's great.

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Why not?

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Yeah.

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Why not?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Well, thanks Leaky.

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Thank you.

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Sessions, a podcast with carbon

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