Digital Trust Redefined: The Impact of DePIN on Global Connectivity



In this episode of Diving Into Crypto, AdLunam Inc. Co-Founder Jason Fernandes hosts Florent Stroppa, Chief Product Officer at Nodle, to explore the transformative impact of Decentralized Physical Infrastructure Networks (DePIN) on global connectivity. Discover how DePIN is redefining digital trust, enhancing security, and creating inclusive, decentralized networks that adapt to the evolving needs of communities. Whether you're curious about blockchain, decentralized infrastructure, or how DePIN is reshaping the future, this episode is packed with valuable insights. Tune in for an in-depth discussion on how decentralized systems are changing the landscape of digital connectivity.

DIVIC goes live every Thursday on the AdLunam Twitter page.

Digital Trust Redefined: The Impact of DePIN on Global Connectivity

SPEAKERS

Jason Fernandes, AdLunam Inc Co-Founder

Florent Stroppa, Chief Product Officer at Nodle

Hello, folks, just doing a quick sound check, if you can hear me, use the reaction buttons and maybe unmute and say hello, and then we'll give it a minute, we'll give it a minute for the Room to load up. All righty let's get started. Hey, hey, welcome to Diving into Crypto. This is your host, Jason Fernandes, co-founder at AdLunam. This program is about sharing insights, strategies and journeys of thought leaders, movers and shakers and candlestick watches. This program is brought to you by AdLunam, the all in one web3 investment ecosystem, empowering early stage startups. Before we begin hearing a few announcements, the viewers on this program are that of the speaker and the thoughts shared are meant for educational purposes only. Feel free to use the reaction buttons as you hear gems from our speakers. At the end of the program, we will open the room up for Q and A's from the audience. Your questions can be sent across to our Twitter account on AdLunam Inc., if you get cut off from the show, come back to AdLunam Inc. and you'll find a new link. They'll lead you back to the podcast. Okay, let's go. So today, we have a really interesting guest for us, Mr. Florent Stroppa, is a product executive with a background in software engineering, cryptography and mobile product development. He has held key leadership roles at companies such as Vodafone on mobile and black lane. Currently contributes his expertise to growing the nodal network. Nodal is a decentralized infrastructure network providing connectivity and computing, leveraging the infrastructure and infrastructure on smartphones. The Qlik app is a media authentication platform helping users to create deep reels. So Florent, why don't you unmute and maybe introduce yourself to our audience? Very excited to have you here. Thank you so much.

Awesome. I mean, I've never actually been to France, but It's on my to do list. I was in Italy last like a year ago, but it was really exciting, one of my first time in Europe. So, yeah, okay, can't wait. Can't wait to go there. But yeah, so like, let's jump in. Can you tell us a bit about, you know, how you got into crypto? Yeah, you know, what was the moment that the flip this switch flipped, and you sort of got into, you know, Blockchain.

yeah, Mediterranean is a Greek national, right? British Greek national. So in the Mediterranean, you can there are a lot of, yeah, there are a lot of islands where superb, yeah, I think still one of the best. I mean, today it's much bigger. Actually. Sometimes you never predict, right? You are early in something, then you don't really pay attention. Then if it gets bigger. Andrea, for me, still one of the best educator for Bitcoin and Ethereum, by the way, it's also a big issue on to just and his book is also pretty amazing about the serum, different.

I even recommend the Bitcoin standard.

Yeah, that is also a really good, good way to start. By the way you mentioned, sorry, decentralized messaging. I'm really curious about XMTP, and your thoughts on XMTP, open source protocol for web3 messaging. I know that it's supported by unstoppable domains. Unsolvable domains. It's actually something that I've been really looking into quite a bit. So your thoughts on that?

Yeah. I mean, this is one of the standard that we actually actively looking at. So the founder, the founder of Nodle, is Micha Benoliel. So he did a project called Firechat. Okay, so Firechat was an attempt to do decentralized messaging running on Bluetooth. And so it's been into this messaging space, and it's still completely crazy about it. And he always has this vision of adding a messaging feature into the noble app, which is a challenge, obviously, and actually looked actively into multiple standards. So when I was talking in the past of decentralized messaging, one of the things that I actually implemented a service for was x and PP, okay, not TP, PP, like Jabber, and it's been used by very successful, let's say centralized service X and TP. It's new. I love it. It's not fully decentralized, but it's supported by many wallets, like Coinbase wallet support it. It's also supported by the Lens protocol, which we partner with. So this is something that we are definitely looking at, because it could be quite revolutionary for communication between wallets. I mean, wallets for us is kind of the big thing is, like you can, you could request a USB C payment by just simply, simply sending an XM TP message to Wallet. And it's if it's big, if it becomes the standard that we want, then of course, it will be supported by so many wallets, and it will open up a number of new opportunities for the ecosystem. So yes, we are digging into it. We love it. We follow what the team is doing. They have also implemented support for open frames, which is super cool. So yes, they are, they are really killing it.

That's something you guys are looking at. So I know the founder of XMPP was in Unstoppable domains, most inspiring woman who won that award. And my co-founder, Nadja, she also won that same award. So I would, we were going to, like, you know, just, just kind of see, that's when we started researching, sort of, what are the other companies that I involved in, and what are they doing? And I just thought this, this was just really, really fascinating. The one thing I thought was that was disappointing about XM TP is, like, there's not a, like, it's, it works for, it works for messaging and stuff. But like, yeah, if you were to try to replace something like, you know, Facebook Messenger, or something like that, like, there's, it's such a, there's such a lack of features. So for example, of course, to attach, attach files, right? Like, you would need something like lighthouse, or some sort of, you know, permanent file storage solution.

yeah, you need an IPFS Absolutely. I mean, you need an IPFS storage or something like this, so it doesn't work, but obviously, because it's related, I would believe, I would assume it's related to costs and things like that. So they would, I would assume that they are waiting for a full open standard so that other people can take over and those kind of stuff. Group messaging was also lacking. And it's they just, I mean, they implemented recently. It's not like telegram chat, though, but it's coming. I mean, yeah, yeah.

You know, it's crazy. I had a very close friend musician that we were friends for many years, and then unfortunately, passed away. And then a few years after he died, like Facebook just withdrew all his messages. So now, when I go to my messages, my chat, I don't have any of those messages blanks, and I don't know whether maybe his account. They kill this account because you're not wrong. They don't know why, obviously, but it's just, it's crazy that, like, you know, you can have all these memories that you think are yours, that your conversations, your memories, right? And you think that you have them forever because you have this conversation, you have it in your chat, and you don't go back and read it, and you go back and it's gone, right? That's the problem with centralized messaging in the first place, is you're so massively dependent on somebody else to either allow you to see a message or even your username, right, like your Twitter can get banned, for example, and then that's gone. So it's, I think the future is sort of coming around, being able to take that with you, regardless of what platform you're using, and not sort of decentralized messaging, that is, you know, not, not, not sensible, basically, I think that's one. But if you hear rich, can you tell us more about Nodle, sort of what?

Yeah, sure. So we work on three main things at Nodle. We work on the Nodle network, it's what we are most known for, the Nodle app and the click app. So the nodal network, as you presented, is a decentralized network focused on connecting IoT devices through mobile phones. So our vision is to create a robust, secure network that leverage the power of smartphones. And the wireless technology is being used is Bluetooth, low energy, so it's the same technology is behind Apple, fine, mine. So that's the nodal network. That's the deep in but besides this, we also have the nodal app, which is an edge node for the nodal network. And there are about 300,000 Mau on the nodal app. It's very active. Our community is really crazy about the app, and it's basically the supply side of the DP you know, like on DP, you usually have a supply side, demand side. So who provide the service? The nodal app, users, or the nodal SDK. But the nodal app is not limited to the nodal network. It's actually an open container that can support multiple deep in services. So for instance, recently, we have launched a mission inside the app. So we call it mission like a mission is a new deep in service. And we deployed a new mission with the massive network, which is a decentralized proxy service, and people are also earning, currently, their earning points for running the massive network mission within the nodal app, and soon we should have an accuracy. Accuracy is the DP they are focusing on GPU resources, and basically our users will be able to earn for letting service run on the GPU of their smartphone. So like long story short, the nodal app is multi network, still primarily focused on the nodal network, but its vision is even broader than this. And then we have the click app, which is our media authentication camera. And we can talk about it in another question. So in a nutshell, we do those three main things. We have businesses that use our service. So on the deep inside, we have companies like rule in France or what to in Africa. They use our IoT system to track vehicles. And on the media authentication size side, we have a company called Aiden AI and Vivendi, which is a very large conglomerate in Europe who is also using our technology for media authentication.

That's I want to talk about deepen in a second, but I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on long range radios and something like Meshtastic? Do you think that there's a place for like the Nodle network being essentially a sort of way to increase the security of like, a decentralized Meshtastic sort of network, by basically jumping on and off from the network to this, say, long range radios and then back onto the network by shifting these packets.

You mean like, by storing like, by storing packets locally and then, like, a store and forward kind of capabilities, that's what you're trying to Right,

right? Like, essentially, for messaging, right, decentralized, essentially decentralized worldwide messaging, enabled by long range radios and blockchain maybe, yeah.

I mean, yeah. So that's definitely, currently, unfortunately, never really worked in a mass scale. But that's basically the vision that the founder, Micha had always okay. So this is always what he wanted. Bluetooth was not long range enough. Now, BLE is constant. I mean, Bluetooth is constantly increasing its range. And there are other systems that will be long range, so eventually it will work. Uh, now maybe still too early, I would say that would be my perspective.

Because I really say I'm curious about, like, where something like that would come into, coming to play in a place where there's like, you know, let's say there's like, protests against the government. Mean, yeah, and the internet is off, you know, like, how do you stop exactly, how do you let people, you know, protest and so on.

And that's, I mean, you can, if you are really curious about what I mean, Firechat was born with some protests. So you can look at the Wikipedia page of fire chat, and you will see that was exactly the stuff, but it was in in places with very high density of population at the time of the protest, and it allowed people to communicate via like a story forward, kind of things with blue too. So yes, those things are definitely possible. The always, always, the problem with consumer service like that is that for service like this, it only works when you need it and you need it in, let's say, once every five years, right?

Okay, amazing,

yeah. And that's what I heard about Firechat. And that's when I actually started thinking about sort of this. I really started thinking about, hey, you know, how do you enable protests in places where, you know, and that's like, for a long time, and then maybe couple years later, I heard about missed a stick. And I was like, oh, maybe there's a way around exactly who's thinking I was in my head.

But besides process, I mean, there will be also times where we will need those kind of technologies. So we always discussed about this. Like, imagine, in 15 years, you want to deploy a colony 20 years, a colony on Mars. AdLunam wants to do this. We have like, 50,000 people, whatever, like something really crazy. You would not deploy a centralized service. You're probably more likely to deploy for payment between users, because you would have, like, some economy there. So you would have a cryptocurrency, and you would have a GP in to power the communication, because it's just simpler. It basically it's created with how you are deploying the people, instead of thinking in advance. It's a bit more organic way so deep in our very, very strong for community based organic growth where the infrastructure is deployed, where the community is instead of planning in advance. Yeah. So those are kind of use cases where DP would really shine.

So essentially, you have a node where you haven't really pre blended, but exactly, wow. So tell us about deep and I know a lot of people, you know that may be listening have heard the concept and don't really understand kind of you know what it's all about. Tell us a bit about that.

So a DePIN stands for decentralized physical infrastructure network. So most of them rely on the blockchain. Okay, so there is a blockchain behind and basically it's the concept is some kind of a marketplace. You have supply the supply side of the marketplace, you know, for Uber, the supply side are the drivers, like the chauffeurs, the one providing the service. In the case of DePIN it would be people with hardware or software running on resources to deploy the service. In the case of the novellap, those are the smartphones. But for instance, you have some very famous DePIN is helium. And what they do? They have, like, hotspots, okay? So you have a piece of hardware that you deploy, and they provide the connectivity service. So this is the supply side, and then you have demand people who want to use the connectivity or the service, or the GPU, whatever. So you have a marketplace, and to kick start the deep in, you need to reward the provider of the resources. And usually, though that's where blockchain is, is the core of the thing is, because the network rewards, yeah, exactly, micro payments in token to so usually it's token so you have it's not, it's not a stable coin. It's actually the network kick when he when the network kick starts, it has no value, and the more nodes, the more value the network. So theoretically, it's also accurate to the token. That's really the concept of deep in you have a you have a token which is used for paying the supply side of the marketplace, and then you have demand, who wants access to the network, and they are paying. And this is how the entire system works. So in a nutshell, that's always how deep in work.

Okay, so how do you think? How would you say it's transforming the landscape of digital connectivity and trust?

It almost behaves like in an extensible manner, because it sort of expands and contracts when and where it's needed, exactly,

Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, you nailed it here. It's like, it's a flexible breathing, like, ecosystem, you know, like it grows, it declines. It grows where it's needed. It's way more organic in nature, right?

I mean, and would you say you mentioned the IoT? I'm curious about how, like, deep in an IoT sort of where they overlap.

So yeah, technically, Nodle is an IoT, DePIN I mean one, a part of it is IoT, DePIN network. And I think we will see DePIN, IoT deployment going hand in hand with other types of DePIN deployment. So for example, you have, if you deploy deep in infrastructure of solar panels or sensors, the technology you will deploy alongside those piece of hardware will be deep in IoT, because it would just make it even easier to deploy infrastructure.

Okay, so IoT with, with DePIN built in, like on a built on a Raspberry Pi or something.

Yeah. I mean, you definitely, you can so deep in can be deployed either with specific hardware or plain software. And that's exactly what we do with Nodle. It's a plain software solution. You just deploy a piece of code on your phone, and the phone does the work.

It's agnostic of platform, basically,

yeah, it works on Android and iOS. It's a smartphone based deep in, and you have all the kind, by the way, you have all the kind of deep in where it's more desktop focused. Okay, so you run a piece of software on your desktop, and your desktop will do some processing with the GPU. So that's more like the software DePIN and you also have hardware DePIN, where you buy, for instance, a camera. Okay, so buy a camera, you have a piece of software inside the camera that is connected with the GP network. And typically those sensors, they are like a DePIN IoT, right? It's IoT. You may use or not standards from the IoT industry like MQTT so it's they will go any then I think IoT was typically limited to deployment of much larger companies and deep in allows smaller scale entities to deploy very cheaply and effectively IoT infrastructure,

right? And so you mentioned, you know, trust is as being one of the benefits of building on deep in like, how does that work in a privacy focused decentralized network? How does it build, you know, a more secure digital infrastructure, yeah,

so deep in enhanced public safety by creating more resilient tamper proof networks, so you have key elements include, like strong encryption, privacy preserving protocols. But I would say, if we really are looking at the more secure digital infrastructure is more like decentralized networks are more secure digital infrastructure because they remove the single point of failure, or what we usually call the shock point, okay, the point of control. So messaging is a prime example. You have centralized messaging services are more likely to get pressure to give drops into personal communication. For instance. Is even if the owner of those platform don't really want to do that, the fact that they can allow other parties to exert control over them create the risk, while a decentralization system cannot even do that, right? It's just more secure and private by design, because there is just no point of attack. There is no point where you can actually exert pressure to somebody, right or so. That's where, when we think about more secure digital infrastructure, more private. This is really why decentralized infrastructure are far superior. Again, that's why Bitcoin was the first successful experiment of, let's say cryptocurrency. It was not the, I mean, it was not the first to try, right? There were a lot of different trial before. It was just the first, because you had the peer to peer thing, which was the revolution, right? So that's where I think decentralization plays a key role.

So in case, with the exception of messaging, which you mentioned, what do you think is the most exciting sort of possible use case, either now or in the future, for deep in, particularly in, you know, let's say media verification or things like that. Like, what are the best use cases that you see besides messaging?

So in terms of deep in I'm actually looking at multiple different projects. So I think there are, there are a lot of different projects that are super interesting. So for instance, there is a hive mapper. There is a, I love this project. They are trying to create a global map. Okay, so think of it like Google Maps and so on, but with more with more screenshots. So it's like Google Maps slash Google Street View. So you have many good things, and it's decentralized. It's in the area of decentralized data collection, and it actually works surprisingly well. In many cases. It actually works better than centralized system, because again, back to the organic part of it. Like where people are, it gets built. Decentralized clouds are also super interesting. Like we, you have fluence network that are working on this topic inaccuras, which we are, we are working with accuracy, and hopefully we'll be able to have or more than 200,000 node apps become nodes to their network. So I think this is some exciting use case for deep in. Now, if you talk about media authentication, which we do for click, we just you click, just use the capabilities of the deep in. It is not necessarily. It's not part of the DePIN. Just is a consumer of capabilities of the DePIN. And what do you what do we consume? We are trying to consume the proof of location. We are planning to use another network for that. It's not yet operational, but basically the nodal network will compute a wireless signature of various location, and the click app would have to provide, along with the content, a similar wireless signature embedded with with it. And there was also concept of digital witness, where you can send a signal of a Bluetooth and check that this encrypted signal was indeed well received by the by the click app to prove that the location is correct. Click is really focused on, let's say we had the idea of click because we saw last year the rise of LLM, and especially in video and photo creation, like image creation with mid journey DallE and so on, we saw the potential for anybody to easily create fake content. So click is there with as a solution to take photos and videos that embeds a proof of origin, proof of provenance, proof of time, proof of location and authenticity. So it's quite complex. We package a lot of things and we leverage the power of the DePIN, but it's not the DePIN in itself, right,

right now, but in terms of revenue models, I'm just curious, do you think that deep in and decentralized networks open up new revenue models, and let's say crypto rewards for users. What economic impact do you see?

You know, yeah, for sure. So, so deep in animal enables differently new revenue model by allowing users to encrypt the rewards for participating in the network so they provide connectivity, processing power, and it is really at the center what we do at node with the app. We have users everywhere. So it's quite amazing. If you actually we have a map on network.nolo.com, you see a map of h3 tiles. Those are some kind of like x Agon on on the map. And we are like, we are in Alaska, Argentina, Cuba, South Korea, Uganda, like you name it. We are there. And those people are tokens that they can then redeem for that. Dollars, and it can really help people in emerging markets. So eventually we happy those kind of service like novel will add many people on a daily basis, and it will also increase the side effect will be, will increase the importance of the data in those markets. Because usually those, I mean people in many countries, they love to have dollars to save and store their wealth, even if worse is not always the world, but whatever they have, they want to save it. They don't necessarily always like the local currency, and it's magic here, right? They just provide capabilities with the phone, and then they earn something they can convert in stable coins. So we believe it's going to be more and more, I mean, more and more impactful there. And yeah, go ahead.

35:49

No, no, go ahead. Please go ahead.

No. I mean, we will want to do some missions as well that people, where people would earn directly stable coins. I mean, they are maybe some issues with challenges with that. So we are investigating this, but we know there is demand for this. We have people in some countries like Argentina. We know they love this. We know we should provide more capabilities, more features linked to stable coins, especially the USDC or USDT. So those are things that we are investigating because we see demand, yeah,

no. In fact, I was at an, I was in an exchange many years ago, and essentially we had, we had one of our customers. She used to get, she used to, like, manufacture, like, these, these, these vehicles that would pick up, like, you know, large quantities of things, and, like, move them around. So, like, industrial eagles, right? And she still often have to take payment in just random things, like grain. Or one time she ended up payment in in, like, tons and tons of fish, and then the fish got stuck in the port, and it was bad by the time she managed to get it out. And so basically, she was able to make fish sauce out of it. She's, like, really enterprising person, but, like all really, because of lack of, you know, having something like the US dollar or USDT to trade, and sometimes, like having in these countries can be massively, massively useful. Yeah, absolutely, but yeah, how do you see the shift towards decentralized networks impacting traditional centralized infrastructures?

So good question. Well, I don't think there will necessarily be a shift. Again, back to what I said is like deep in is something new with its own set of opportunities and challenge challenges. So the more centralized service will continue to exist, but decentralized network can offer more resilient, efficient or cost effective alternative. So it's more like it's not it's a positive addition to the to the pool of things that are available. And I believe that DePIN allows communities to deploy their own infrastructure, which is really interesting and actually useful. So we will not necessarily see a shift. We'll see more like something complementary, where you would see also aliens between a centralized system with DePIN and Visser and DePIN are partnering with each other quite significantly. So we see something more organic and an ecosystem that grow bigger.

So maybe you have like these, these tribes that are often, you know, far off, deep in the jungle or something, and they're trying to build the infrastructure for roads, yeah, or bridge or something. And they essentially create their own little mini, mini-infrastructure,

absolutely, absolutely.

So how do you think it's going to impact things like deep in, and things like, you know, AI and blockchain, mostly AI, because AI is like the hot, the hot, new hot topic. So everybody wants to know how AI is going to interact with, with deep and basically anything,

that's a good question. So yeah, of course, the DePIN AI is very hot, as usual, and there are many areas where AI can play a role. So first of all, there are already some DePINs that are focused on AI application, like deploying a GPU infrastructure. So they are like, I think, three or four projects that are dedicated to deploying infrastructure for the sake of training, llms and also other capabilities for AI. So this is one area where actually DePIN is an enabler for AI, but they also, I also think that AI could play a role with what we call usually in deep in, we call it the Oracle problem. So deep in usually needs an Oracle for processing the rewards. So you have a it's the central that's kind of the centralized part of DePIN. It needs to calculate how much nodes can be rewarded for the work and AI and. AI algorithm could improve this process. And I mean, technically, we are actually looking at Nodle. So this is something that we take seriously for, and we will use AI for some of the Oracle work, because it's just more performant, it's more adaptive. But so those are, like two main areas, obviously, I'm not sure, I think about all the ways that deep in any I could intersect,

But, but maybe, you know, a lot of people talk about sort of big data and how, with AI in general, and trading, it's like, how do you get these big data sets? And if blockchain is the answer, then it comes down to sort of DePIN. and sort of giving an equitable distribution of, you know, things like tokens and so on, absolutely in exchange for in as payment for data.

You know, it's a very good point and it is one of the thing that we are so now it's actually back to click. We are looking at deploying some click missions in the future, and basically people would be rewarded for taking photos of certain things and take so they will be rewarded, but they will provide the content. Okay? So then it will be fair, because users are rewarded for some content that they provide. And then LLM can be trained on top of this very large data set, it will be a reality when we have way more users on click. But technically, those are the things that can be done. And this is a very good point, so that's here is just an example from here. But of course, deep in are very good at taking data from the ecosystem. Deep in is physical, so they are in the world, detecting, sensing the environment. So they are huge source of data that can be put into off chain, but with Blockchain capabilities to pay for them. And then, of course, AI could be trained on them with actually the insurance that all the rights and everything has been done correctly. So yes, definitely, that's a very strong point. Maybe we asked it early there, but in a couple of months and years, this will be massive.

Yeah. So you know when you describe click, I remember when I was in college, they used to be reflecting this, like, total pond right at the University of Texas, and, like, a really cool place to go, like, hang out and just watch the totals. You know, very, very peaceful. And like, after I moved back, back to overseas and I left there. Like, I wanted to be able to, like, Hey, would it be great to be able to go check out what that total pod is just right then, and there's no cameras or anything. And I was like, You know what, like, x is, x, you set up a fiver gig where somebody just goes over there, like, stands there with a camera and shows me a live feed for a little while, till I'm more relaxed. But it's kind of funny, because, like, click a lot. Like, you know you were saying that they're getting, like, live life, live pictures and data from the environment and adding it. So it's almost like somebody has come up with that product.

Yeah, I mean, definitely this is the big idea. Yes, you could. So, you know, first it will start with a centralized entities asking for content, but then it could become peer to peer. So you could ask, Hey, I'm asking the tick network to take a photo of this stuff, or tell me what about this. And basically, if they accept your the price, then you would have, like it would be stored in a smart contract, and if you deliver the content, the funds would be sent to them. Definitely, the big idea beyond that, yeah,

that's such a cool use case, too. Because, you know, I, when I was at IBC, like, we had clients that would buy airtime on Times Square, and then they want to, they'd want to, then try to find somebody to go over there and, like, take a video off their ad when it was playing, and there was no real service to get that done, right? Like, even though, like, how is this particular place at this moment, if you want that data, there's no way to really,

yeah, you need to have someone, someone there, actually, they are company. We've been talking to some companies who actually do this work for ads. They want to make sure that, like, physical ads, you know like, the ads on papers, right? Like large billboards and stuff some I mean, when you are an advertiser, you want to make sure that actually your ads is properly displayed. And so there are companies that are getting paid to verify that this is the case. And of course, we click. You could make it much easier, like a non demand kind of solution, where it's much easier for for the common people to I'm just there. You just, I mean, I mean, you know, I'm just there. I And I'm being pushed a notification I take to do that. Of course, I do this, boom, and you get $2 by the way, we cost way more for the companies. We cost way more than $2.

You could also do it with like, drones, right? Like, for example, like, get drone footage of, like, live drone footage of a particular area, or, like a disaster area or something like that. Maybe, like, something happened and your house is destroyed. Or, like, let's say there's like a tornado or something and, like one of, like, a whole street is destroyed, and you want to go check your house, you can, like, pay somebody to, like, send a drone, as opposed to cameras, you know, like, just cameras you can even like, of course.

And there are some DePINs actually working on drones. I don't know the names, but I know that they are. So, yeah, it's fast. I mean, there are so many things going on so,

going sort of more broadly, what do you think the more exciting emerging trends and blockchain are in general, and what are the things that you're particularly excited about? Like, if you were this problem, what would you be working on?

I can, yeah, I can tell you what I'm excited about. So of course, I'm excited about DePIN and it's the core job. But I'm also excited about the rise of web3 social networks, live VLANs protocol or faux caster so we don't know if they're going to be successful in the long term, but right now, I think it's pretty exciting to see those platforms grow. It's, it's, it's really the first time personally that I see such traction on a web3, on a web infrastructure, so it looks like it's possible. I mean, before it was so difficult, you never saw any traction. But now there is the instruction. Of course, it's essentially, currently mainly the crypto community, so we need to find a way to expand it and show the value to the non crypto natives, but I think it's quite encouraging. So I'm super excited about this, actually excited about x and TP that you mentioned, so really following what they do. And last, I'm also excited about RWA, so real world asset tokenization. I believe everything that is currently digital in the trade. In the traditional world, everything is currently digital, such as a stock, yeah, stock is, is basically is digital. Of course, there are paper form of it, but in reality, it's digital. A currency is also digital. A bond is digital. And but they are. They have the wrong form of digital I believe they will be tokenized, and the tokenized form will be in a couple of years, and like in five to seven years, they will be the most common form of the asset. That's what I believe. So I think it's super exciting to see what's going on there. Crypto in general, it's such a fast paced environment, I think it's one of the fastest if you look at the entire tech industry. I mean, AI and crypto are the two fast, crazy spaces where you have everything every two weeks, there's something new. So it's super exciting to work there you see trends. You don't know which one is gonna work, but you can, you cannot get bored.

Yeah, in fact, you know we had last, last week, we had the founder of, was the CEO of Zoth that IO and they have, just recently, I think they put like, I want to say, was like $100 million in tokenized securities, on their, their SHA and they're just killing it on the whole RWA. Like, because people talk about a lot about RWA is but like, these guys are actually just killing it in terms of actual deployment. So, yeah, shout out to those guys. They were over here last, I think couple weeks ago, we had them on the show. Yeah, they're doing some interesting things. So I think it's amazing.

I mean, they are super smart. I mean, like working on this, you have way more chance to, you know, tokenize digital things, like tokenizing a house is like, this is 20 years from now, I think, like mainstream, but tokenizing a bond. It's much more. It's much clearer, right? It's so much smarter. I think the market is very large.

Yeah, yeah. And what do you think? So, just so, just sort of moving forward into sort of your, like, life advice type thing. What advice would you give entrepreneurs and developers, like looking to enter, like, deep in and decent?

Okay, good. I would have different advice depending on the audience. So my advice to developers would be to try, if you want to get into DePIN and the crypto just try to work with an existing project that you are passionate about. Contribute. Crypto is open source. You can contribute to the code, you can propose change. You can get close to the team. There's just no better way to prove your worth, and then you be you can become a permanent member of the core team like this. And it's my advice to. Developers also advise to if you are more in the community side. I mean, in our case, the lead of the community group is actually a next ambassadors, who we met because it was in the community. So, you know, like engaging with the team gets you inside the team. Entrepreneurs, I would give different advice. So either try to partner with an existing project that you love, and these things on to the table for them. So for instance, the case of a decentralized wireless infrastructure like normal, just create hardware software to make it simple to deploy the infrastructure. You basically you get embedded into the ecosystem. That's what I would say, or if you really want to be a DePIN creator, I would focus on an existing infrastructure that could benefit from decentralization. It's already super hard to deploy a DePIN. So solving and solving the kickstart problem is not an easy fit. So if you have to invest in something in your time, you should really looking at that instead of trying to build something with no existing demand, because you are just making your life twice harder. I would say,

yeah. And with reference to developers, like, what kind of technologies would you like if you were doing this, like, over or, let's say, right now, like, what's like the hottest technology around this area that somebody should sort of like, dig into.

Yeah, for me, it's just developed for an EVM. You learn solidity and you learn how to deploy on Ethereum to every EVM compatible blockchain. So, I mean, for me, would be a no brainer. I mean, this is where, yeah, it's a no brainer, because this is you have the largest footprint. Your skills will be in demand, huge demand for this. And even better, I mean, if you really want to get, like, becoming a super good there and then becoming an auditor of smart contract even it's even better. So yeah, but I would focus on solidity, everything related to the EVM,

yeah. I mean, I think if you're, if you're a new developer, and you figure out, like Ethereum being like one of the largest chains, you figure out so, and then a dimension all the other EVM compatible chains. So if you figure out, yeah, we can start deploying code, and like your there's already a such a massive dirt of good, good programmers in solidity. I think that's just going to be blow up. What advice? What are you where we started? Where would you see, you know, the blockchain industry evolving over the next 5 to 10 years?

Yeah. So a few major things, I would say, like mass adoption of Bitcoin, Ethereum and other corrupt crypto assets from the traditional financial world. So with the launch of the ETFs, in particular, the black back the Blackrock Bitcoin. ETF is a game changer. Crypto assets are becoming mainstream, and they will be more and more embedded into the existing financial system. So what has been what happened really this year? It's like now, this credibility, this liquidity, there is certainty to those assets, so those are massive, and this will continue to grow, and it will be really embedded into the entire financial world. I mean, today you see the BTC and Ethereum ticker on Bloomberg. I mean, it's like, you watch like, TVs of financial news, and they talk always about Bitcoin, which is not right, like five years ago. It's crazy, if you think, but it would be even bigger. It would be massive. Stable coins are going to dominate payment. That's also my view. Like, I think in 10 years, stable coin will be the way to pay Visa, MasterCard people, they are all working on this. I mean, they all, I mean, they are like you have seen, like you have a stable coin of USD with PayPal, they are all working on the topic. They will not be left behind, because it is just so revolutionary and it's so profitable, so that it's unavoidable that stablecoin are going to take over, and maybe people will not necessarily see that they are paying stable coins. That's the beauty of it. Like you can still have the same credit like card, credit, card, banking app, but the stable coin, I believe, would be the underlying infrastructure. So that's more like a bet, but I really believe in that open, public blockchain. Yeah, good, yeah.

No. I also think that another trend that I saw and that I was much more like I had doubts before, but now I have no doubts. I believe open and public blockchain will become the key technology for many industries, and private blockchains, to me are that it's a statement, but I think now that you have a. Are technologies such as FHE, like fully homomorphic encryption, ZKP zero knowledge proof that can provide an extra layer of privacy, and you can program access control with smart contracts and so on. I just don't see any value for building on private blockchain. Well, while public you offer so many other advantages so similar to at the beginning of the internet, they were all internet is no value. Intranet is very useful for companies the internet. Reality is Internet has one intranet are users, and for sure, I mean, for me, it's kind of sure that public blockchain are going to completely dominate. It doesn't mean that private blockchain will no longer exist, but I think it will. They will not be the in the white picture, and last, of course, deep in, they will be used for a wider range of use case. So it's hard to predict which one would be the most successful. But right now, the genie is out of the bottle. So deep in are going to be something quite, quite massive in the next five to 10 years.

You know, you mentioned stable coins earlier and how they're going to take over. You should really look into like my former colleagues at x Rex, they've they started this thing called Unit Trust protocol, and they saw Unit Trust dot foundation. So essentially, a really interesting sort of stablecoin is unitized. Stablecoin basically serve as unit so accounting representing emerging market economy. So for example, they've gone like Indian rupee, which is USD91, USD971, for UAE, and USD one for dollar. So the idea is to unitize the USD stablecoin into a local currency unit that that way, providing, you know, transactional ease and efficiency regardless of which country you are. So it's like value translated between USD and other currencies, guaranteeing that you can always transfer it back into USD. By the way, this company got invested by my tether. Tether invested 16 million in in this form of my in my former company, XREX and these are the founders, the same founders of XREX also found Unitas foundation. So really fantastic, really fast,

I'll contact you a fine on this. Super interested. Definitely awesome. This is great. Thank you.

Yeah, they're really building on the forefront of this, you know. But anyways, just to cap it up where we're, unfortunately coming to his end, this is really awesome conversation. But can you tell us a bit about your personal philosophy and what keeps you going and what you know, what powers you?

Yeah, my personal philosophy is to stay curious and be consistent with who you really are. So sometimes we try to portray ourselves and do something that we are not. But in my case, I love building products. I just love being at the edge of technology. So it's not really a surprise that I'm working as a CPU in this industry. If you love what you do, it's much easier to cope with stress and pressure. So, yeah, that's what that's about. Personal philosophy is trying to work on a topic that is intellectually stimulating, that I can learn always, and that I really deeply love, because it has tremendous opportunities.

Thank you so much, Jason, it was a pleasure. Have a great day.