On this episode we talk with Greg Neumayer about the need for adventure

and wonder. Greg leads groups of men on trips to the Tetons and talks

about why adventure and wonder is a necessity for humans.

Full notes at https://dudesanddads.com/s6e10

On this episode of the dudes and dads podcast,

we talk with Greg Neumayer about wonder and adventure.

You're listening to the dudes and dads podcast,

a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes and dads by building community

through meaningful conversation and storytelling.

Now here are your hosts Joel Demott and Andy Lehman.

Andrew, we are in, we're in studio again together. It's like beautiful.

It is the friendly confines as we like to call it.

We're so glad last time you were at a hotel in the, not even in the lobby,

you were in, I was in a hotel room in Dallas. You were not in the room though.

That's the thing. You were, you were not even in the room. No,

you were like outside the birds were chirping or trying to chirp, but, oh,

that's, that's right. Yeah. Oh no, no. You're saying yes. Last time.

No last time we recorded. Yes. I was in Toledo. That's where it was.

That just shows you what life has been handled. Handing me recently.

I can't remember what city I was in, but I, when I was speaking to you. Yes. Yes.

Well, Hey everybody, welcome to the dudes and dads podcast.

Glad to have each and every one of you along looking forward to a great

conversation. Yeah. Yeah. So we've had,

we've had our friend Greg on the show before.

I don't even remember what Greg talked about last time, but it was,

it was meaningful.

It was so meaningful that I forgot what it was about.

I think it was guarding your, your inner, your, your inner life.

Yeah. It was all about the inner life. Yes. I think it was, yeah.

Something like that. And in true fashion we were, you know,

talking about deep, the life. Okay. Right. It was checking the life of the mind.

No, there was season three, episode 21 Greg Neumayer. Oh,

had a spiffy picture at the blue background. So, okay. Okay.

It was winter. I think it was what I remember was it was dark outside by all.

Greg remembers is that he was depressed when he got here.

It was dark and yeah. Yeah. Hey, Hey Joel, before we get into it tonight,

yeah. I know that we're going to have people watching. Yes.

So I would love to have them comment,

but dudesanddads.com/ask is going to get you into the zoom

room. Ask. Ask. Okay. Like you're going to ask a question.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I gotcha. No, no, no. I just,

I wanted to make sure that I heard you correctly. I am the dude.

So that's what you call me. Thank you. Okay. Ask slash ask.

It's going to get you into the zoom room where you can physically be on camera

with us and answer or ask your question.

Is this the first time that we're allowing this level of access? We are, we are.

So we've done it with patron listeners before, but never with a general,

with the rest of the listeners, the other awesome people. So, so we,

I mean, we could get a weirdo or two on there and that's possible. We could,

but that keeps things interesting. It does. It does. But

more, more, more to the point though. I,

I just love the way you do it on screen. More to the more to the point. Again,

just another avenue for people to connect, engage in the conversation. All great.

That's wonderful. Yes. So, so there, so we,

we do the das.com/ask. We'll get you into that,

but ask ask, ask, ask. Greg,

Greg, how are you, man? Welcome back. I'm good. I'm yeah, I'm very good.

Glad to be back with you guys. And especially glad to hear of

Joel's recent travels and we connected with you and your wife. Yeah.

I had a great time last night too. So this is, yeah, this is a real treat. Yeah.

So, so we went out to see a movie. Yeah. My wife and Greg and his wife,

we went to see inside out too, which I actually think is nice. I'm going to say,

I'm just going to say it, it's a better than the first one. Would you agree,

Greg? I'm not there yet. I, I, I really love the first one.

And this one was good too. I just think that they're at different, you know,

the,

the first one was about childhood and this one's very much about adolescents and

they each have a great space. There's the introduction of anxiety, right?

This is part of the, yeah. It's very interesting. Interesting.

All I'm going to say is they did a great job. If you've not seen it, go see it.

10-4 every youth worker and parent will deeply connect with.

Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, yeah, they do an incredible job.

Visualizing very, uh, uh, very deep,

very specific kind of neuroscience, uh,

concepts and giving you a way of accessing them and saying, Oh wow, that's that,

that is exactly what that feels like. It's, it's great. Yeah. Yeah.

So today though, we are, we're going to be talking about, uh,

adventure and wonder and all of those things because Joel and I are

actually going to be joining you soon on an adventure, a wonder,

and we're going to go on an adventure and then I'm going to wonder why I agreed

to go. No, no, no. I'm really wondering why right now,

why did I sign up for this adventure? No. Uh, yeah,

I think, you know, Andy, you and I,

we have conversations all the time about trips that we go,

things that we do, things we do with our kids, things, you know, like, um,

experiences,

and we talk a lot about the formational power of experiences and the

intentionality behind that. And obviously we've shared, you know, uh,

I'm on this mission to do a, a significant special trip, one on one, you know,

one on one trip with each one of my kids after they turned 13. Uh,

so there's this trip coming up.

Josiah is coming along with us on this trip as he just turned 13 this past

spring. And, um, I, uh, we're,

we're really, really excited about it. Um, and yeah,

I know that there are, uh,

and this is part of the adventure piece. There's stuff about this, like,

like Greg is Greg is, uh, first of all, he's just going to share with us. I mean,

I just want him to like lay out what it is that he does and what he's been doing

and why he does it, why these, these sort of trips and all of this. Yeah.

But I think the, and then tying in the piece of,

there's an X factor to all of this stuff that like, you can explain it,

like you can tell us about the trip and we can talk about,

we can talk about the logistics and all this sort of stuff.

We can talk about being a crunchwrap Supreme for a bear, but whatever.

Yeah. Ooh. Yes. Uh,

but there's this other part that is really this adventure.

I think this adventure wonder piece that is, uh,

kind of like you just gotta do it. Right. So there is, yeah. Dive in with us.

Well, yeah. You're describing the ideal that, okay, so there's,

there's so much preparation you can,

you can have and you can feel very prepared and still not feel ready. Yeah.

And that I think everybody has that. I mean, I, this will be, I mean,

I've been, Oh man,

I don't even know how many nights I've spent out in Northwest Wyoming,

where we're going and it's not as many as others, but it's still like,

I'm preparing right now. And even until the day I get there,

I won't feel totally ready telling you just, you dive, you dive in and you say,

okay, I'm doing this. Um, and the whole idea with this, uh, the,

the man up retreats and that's what I kind of just called it eventually at some

point, uh, was,

so I worked in the Tetons on a missions kind of a missions internship during

college that was in 2009 had one of the greatest summers of my life,

but didn't get to experience the park very much. Uh,

I worked overnight shift security.

So, uh,

my schedule was way crazy and thrown off from the rest of the team that I was

there with. Um, uh, when I had the chance to, well,

we needed some in-between space,

kind of a an intermission time period where after, uh,

my wife and I had just gotten married,

we returned to the Tetons and worked there then together. Yes.

And, uh,

had a lot more of the park experience that time and just leaned in and was like,

wow, this is really,

I can't believe how much I missed out on the first time we were here and even

spending that another summer and into the fall. I mean,

we closed the place out, left, you know,

in late October didn't feel like I had never felt like I got enough.

Yeah. Um, then I had a good friend who, uh,

we were turning 30 and said, you know,

what we need to do is we need to do a road trip and we need to do an adventure.

We've got to do some of this thing. And I said,

do you want to go back to the Tetons with me? And he was like,

if you plan the thing, I'll go.

Was that the first time for him to go or what?

He was on that first, uh, that first year internship as well in 2009.

And, uh, but I had the same experience. It was just like went a hike, you know,

one or two hikes and otherwise was just feeling dog tired and completely like,

yeah, yeah. It was, it's a,

it's a hard thing to live and work and enjoy all at the same. Sure.

So, uh, we did that and planned out, you know,

the back country discovered the whole permit system, uh,

just dove in completely cold, had no, yeah, nobody.

I mean, we just, okay, I'm going to read a bunch of blogs. I'm gonna,

we're just going to show up. We're gonna hike in, we're gonna stay the night.

We're going to do the things.

And it was amazing and awesome and suddenly like felt like it awakened something

in me that was just like this, uh, you needed to do this.

Like you need to do this years ago. Yeah. And man, what,

this is what I've been missing this. Wow. There's something about this that,

and it's not this like, Oh, it's primal toxic masculinity or whatever. It's just like,

no, it was just like the stars were brighter. There was more of them. Yes.

And I was witnessing and seeing animals that I had,

you know, just, I mean, when a moose just walks by 10 feet,

15 feet away and doesn't care that you're there. Right. It was like,

I know I'm the biggest, baddest thing in this one right now. Right.

You guys just enjoy your, your little snack right there.

And I'm going to go down here. I mean, you just sit there and you just go like,

I am so small. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's a good experience.

I think that's one of the things that kind of the, uh, I mean,

it may be a masculine thing, a manly thing,

or it may just be a human thing in general,

but sometimes we just need to be reminded of our smallness. Yeah.

And that's part of the trip then that was like, I should do this again. Yeah.

So I started it right then was I started planning the next year and invited more

people. And, uh, that was 2019.

So since 2019, I've been doing this every year, uh, open invitation.

Um, first few years were very closed invitations.

Like had to know somebody who knew somebody the last two years now or three

years maybe have been, okay, I'm going to broadcast this, bring this out,

make this available. If this is, you know,

if you're in for kind of an adventurous retreat space,

cause it's not about an achievement. It's not about, Oh,

we're going to do the crest. We're going to do the, uh,

we're going to summit something now that we build some of that.

I build some of that in, but it's so much more about, okay.

Taking our cues from, uh,

kind of the biblical theme of wilderness being, uh, I mean,

you can have the chaos factor of wilderness,

but you can also have the rest factor of wilderness. Sure. Um, and so, uh,

what I kind of describe it as to say,

and the purpose of the man up retreat is to, uh, re inspire,

re inspire men for adventurous lives of faith and deep relationships. And so,

um, you know, so as you saw on the fire or whatever, we,

we enjoy the wild space yet tame restless hearts.

We revel in the isolated expanse, but dig into deep conversation. Uh,

we embrace opportunity for challenging work yet lean into the gift of rest. Uh,

these days are meant to be healing,

encouraging and freeing in all good ways. And it's going to be awesome.

So I really, I'm so thrilled to have you guys coming along this year.

It's going to be, it's going to be awesome. I know I'm really super excited.

I was excited when you just said, or when Clinton frame came and said, Hey,

we want to do this. And then once we had that first like meeting where you're

like, Hey, here's what you need to know. Like I went home and I was like,

this is going to be awesome. Right? Like I was like, I'm, I'm ready for this.

In fact, I'm wanting, I want to, I mean, I'm not been yet,

but I want to go back next time.

The last time, uh, and Greg, I don't think I've said this, uh,

the last time I've,

I've been to the Yellowstone Reed, Yellowstone region, but I was, I was, yeah,

I was going into sixth grade and I remember seeing the Tetons off,

like in the far distance and my parents being like, this is like, just saying,

like, this is one of these amazing mountain rate or whatever. And that is,

that is the only exposure I've had. So it has been living in like a,

like you don't have to say like, I have this dark spot.

I need to go. This is just this like postcard picture I have of it and that's,

and that's it. And I think, Oh, we're going to get you all inside.

That's the beautiful part of it. And I, I think there is something,

um, you know, uh, earlier I was,

I was just thinking about like, what's a funny way that I could ask Greg,

you know, about this trip. Like, what can I, and it's just like, you know,

it's like, man, what, what, what is the deal, uh, with,

with people, uh, getting into the mountains? I mean, like what,

like what is so special, uh, about, uh,

can't they just be left alone? Can't they just,

can't the mountains just be off there in the distance and you just accept that,

uh, that they're there and you go, Oh, those that's nice.

Take a photo and be done. No, no. And why not?

Why not though? Seriously? I don't know. I think, and I, and I, I think it could,

I mean, there could be some personality things to it because some people feel

the same way about like the ocean, you know, and it's like, Oh,

I just want to be on the beach and just look at the vast expanse of the ocean.

And that's what makes them feel small and connected and stuff.

And I don't really love water. Sure. That's just not the thing for me.

But, but, uh, I see a mountain range, you know, like that. I just got,

I want to explore that. Like, I want to know like that right there. I can see that,

that line right there that, that I could tell that, you know,

it's a canyon of some kind. I want to know what's in there. Like how,

how do we get into that? And, and now, I mean, I've been going back. So, I mean,

my first summer was 15 years ago, you know, two summers later,

the whole summer again, and now I've been going back every year for, you know,

a week or two weeks, uh, since 2018. Yeah.

And I don't feel tired of it. Yeah. Um, uh,

I try to build in a different itinerary, a different route for each group.

Some, something that keeps me feeling a little, uh, um, like I'm,

I'm doing something new. Like it's not.

Well, that's amazing too, that you're saying you've been there for 15 years,

right? It's the same place. Like, you know, there are parks that I like, you know,

I've been to different parks, I've in different places, but I think that

like that one in particular is just so vast and there's so much that you can go

and see and do. And yeah.

And it feels like, so I don't have a lot of exposure to many other national

parks, but I have heard and know from experience with,

with Grand Teton that it's just very accessible. Yeah. I mean,

it's a drop fault range, so it's just, it's very dramatic. It's boom. There it is.

You can get right close to it on the lakes, you know, the glacier fed lakes and

these things, and you're right on the trails immediately.

You don't have to drive an hour and a half back in like a Zion or arches or

something. You're like, Oh,

now we're going to drive an hour and a half to get to this one trail.

And then we're going to drive an hour and a half back out or Yellowstone,

which is kind of like a, you know, this figure eight. And it's a,

it's essentially, it's a drive through museum, natural history,

kind of exhibit. Now the Tetons are very, very different,

which is what makes it so awesome for this kind of approach of the retreat and

the wilderness and adventure and wonder. And I think that's really the,

the thing. So what, when, when people come on the retreat, so like you guys,

and I hope that this is kind of just the kind of the anticipation that you're

feeling is this, you have this inner question in, in us.

I think all of us do when we look at something and we asked,

do I have what it takes to do that?

So like you both know that part of this particular trip with your, with the,

with the Clinton frame will include,

literally we're going to start on one side of the mountain range.

We're going to hike up a canyon pressed out at about 10,300 feet or so,

10,500 feet, maybe depends on what the,

if the trail particular trail is open there.

Depends if it's Joel or me, cause he's taller than I am.

And then we're going to hike down on the other side of the mountain range.

And so literally you'll look at a mountain range on a topographical map or on,

on Google maps or whatever. You can be like, I,

I walked my own two feet walked me up and over that. That's awesome. And you,

yeah, you instantly are just go like, I can do that. Oh, if I could do,

yeah, let's do that. Like I want to have done that. Yeah.

And just for context, gentlemen, as we sit here this evening, uh,

we're currently at 927 feet.

We're on the third level of this.

And that's just because we're in an upstairs studio

in Indiana. So, so it's, it's no, uh, it's no minor.

Um, like I know, I know for this, like this coming month, um,

I am trying to get out, by the way, I was going to send you,

I didn't send you the photo. We did, we were over at Warren dunes.

We did the big dude, the big dude and climb.

How did that go for you? How did you feel about that? So here's what,

oh, here's what we got up. Now mind you, it was a hot day.

And so the other thing to, uh,

to overcome was I wore my sandals up and still my feet were about ready to like,

uh, burn off. It was pretty, it was still pretty warm, but, um,

I did have that feeling. I'm like, once we got to the top, I'm like, okay,

I am. That was, that was tiring. Um,

and I'm breathing good and hard. Uh, but we did that.

And, and this is, and on top of that, dude, it's like,

it is climbing that dude. And that's a seven. I think it's a 700.

I think it's like 700 feet, something like that. I have no idea.

I think it's what it is. I really did. I remember,

I remember looking it up or whatever, but, um,

yeah, so it's really, ultimately it's a few,

it's a few hundred foot climb is what it is, what it is. And, but I just,

I remember going and thinking to myself, I'm like, I'm like in my brain,

I'm like, okay, well,

I'm just going to go ahead and say that climbing like,

like ladder climbing through sand is just going to be a little harder,

but like, I'm not at elevation because we're, we're doing, I mean, we're,

we started what? 7,000 feet.

We started at 7,000 feet. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Jackson Lake's about 7,000 feet.

So the next month I am,

what I'm dedicated to is intentional cardiovascular exercise. And,

um, and I, that was a piece that I wanted to talk about,

like in anticipation for the adventure, the preparation,

like the preparation leading and that you can't fully

prepare. Right. Preparing for altitude.

And so it's kind of been like, so I've just been like, well,

I'm just going to do my best to be able to hike as well as I can.

And then, and we've been out, I mean, again, we've, I've,

I just remember, and this is probably my worst, worst fear.

I remember the first time I went out to Denver to visit,

to visit friends and family. Okay. And Greg,

I don't know if I've ever told you this story. Uh,

we had a friend who was, who was, had moved out to Boulder,

year prior that was from this area.

Krista, if you're listening, I just want you to know, I love you dearly,

but this was hard for me.

So she had moved out a year, a year prior and she's, she was going to be like,

we were outside there just for my wife had a,

had a company trip she was out there for.

And so I had an opportunity to be out there for like a long weekend with them.

And so like, Hey, we're going to cram in a bunch of like the quintessential Denver,

range experiences. I get off. This is my first time.

I get off the airplane. We,

she picks us up at the airport and we go to Pike's peak and,

and like did the cog, did the car train thing. I was okay.

I felt okay to the top. Now what also ticks me off Pike's peak? It's a 14,000.

That's a 14,000 footer. Uh,

it was completely fogged over.

I couldn't see a dog on the thing when you get to the top. So it was like,

whoop dee doo. Um,

but it was my first time with altitude sickness that I had felt like you're up

there and you're like, my head feels swimming swimming and not in a good,

like not in a good way. Um, and then, and then got like,

by the time I got back into the tranx,

you're only up there for like 20 minutes and they come back down down the train.

And I just remember like resting my head on the cold window

of the train. And once it got back down to like 8,000,

I started feeling a little better, but man, but man, oh man,

that was my first experience. And what I will have said, what I've said is,

I never want to feel that way again ever, ever, ever in my life.

That is just kind of like the worst because it literally,

it's an interesting thing of it's your surroundings. It's the actual atmosphere,

the actual place that you are in, in that moment. Not just like, it's like,

the thing that's making you not do well is all around. It's all around you.

You are trapped.

Like there's not like a room you can go into that magically makes you feel

better. And, and I just remember this, like, uh,

I think this, I think this feeling of a lack of like how

when you were out of your normal surroundings, this part of adventure,

when you're out of your normal surroundings and there's this,

there's this thing that you cannot control and this thing that's kind of

overcoming you. And you're just like, you do, there's something within you that

goes,

I want to make sure I'm better at this next time where it

doesn't get me the same way. And what I will say, I call it what you will,

every time we've been out ever since I I've, I've had less negative experience,

you know, being out there and, you know,

my brother lived in Denver for a long time going to the range, uh, did, uh,

Mark men, uh, retreat at 9,500 feet, uh, in the range a few years ago,

acclimated, make sure I acclimated in Denver for two days before I went,

before I went up. Yeah. A lot of ibuprofen water. I was fine.

There is no training for, there's no preparation.

There's no training for altitude. There's just not,

your body is used to a certain oxygen saturation at this level.

You, it takes, and everybody's different. I mean,

literally every body is different in its acclimation time. I have found that,

you know, about 48 hours is, uh, will, will be the telltale,

you know, Mark of whether or not, you know, if somebody is, uh, can,

if they're continuing to feel lightheaded, uh, you know,

nauseous or nauseated, um,

any kind of persistent headache and they've been hydrating really,

really well because hydration is so crucial if they've been hydrating really,

really well. And we've only been at 7,000 feet or maybe only gone up, you know,

to a, one of our hikes will go up, you know, eight 82 or 8,400 or so,

um, that it might not be for them to go over the 10 Mark.

They may be, they might be one of those bodies that it's like, ah,

this was going to take you a week. But, um, I haven't had that happen yet.

Usually it's been right around two days.

And that's why you know the guys who are coming in, you guys coming in,

we're going to, we're going to stick around in the Valley, um,

for those couple of days. And some of you are driving in,

which is way better too. Cause you kind of just, yeah,

you're just continuously gradually gaining that oxygen or gaining that

acclimation. Now you drop in from fly in and then go up to

14,000 feet within hours. Yeah. That's a recipe for,

I look back and then I was like, what was, I was like, well,

what was she thinking? But inevitably, I don't know.

There was another conversation. Yeah. Where do we go do this stuff?

And it's like, Oh my gosh. So yeah. And I think, uh,

but the, the whole idea, and I think on any adventure,

any adventure thing that we go on the, I mean, we love,

we love the control. We love, we love the preparation. We spend so much time.

We've had these conversations as parents all the time, right.

Around to what,

like to what degree do we eliminate the unknown or the X factors from the lives

of ourselves, our children, our families,

is there an, is there a, is there a value,

is there a value of pursuing the unknown in those things?

I Greg, I just, I wonder from your perspective, like,

and maybe this is the fun part where he gets to tell us, like,

what's the worst thing that's ever happened to him.

What's the unexpected things that have happened to you. I mean,

I'm sure there have been things. And, and what were those,

you can share whatever you want to share, but like,

what were those things like or what did they maybe produce in you?

Cause I think there's value in that too. Yeah. I, I really,

I think the preparation side of things,

when we ask this question of do I have what it takes or is it, you know,

could I do that? Is that something I could do? I mean,

those are those questions that keep us, you know,

we're going to default one way or the other. We're going to say, well,

I need to lean into as much planning and control as I could possibly have until

I feel as prepared as I could be. And I minimize that sense of risk.

Or you have the, well, whatever it is, it will be, and let's just go for it.

And and, and I think we, you know,

the balance is somewhere in the middle of that with,

and that's where I think wonder comes in, like where we're,

we're open to wonder. We're open to saying, I, I don't have it all figured out.

There's going to be something of this that is going to surprise me.

And I'm actually expecting that. You know, when we think about,

okay, we're going to do, you know, the, the up and over will be about 20 miles,

you know, it'll be about a 20 mile hike up and over and come down Teton Canyon

and such. Your body is meant to do that. Like your,

your body's meant to put one foot in front of the other into, I mean,

your body's meant to do that. We're going to give it the energy.

We're going to give it the rest and, and some of that will be disc, you know,

uncomfortable. I think the real, you know,

the preparation there is actually more in mental side than it is.

Even when you said 20 miles, it's like, you know, for me,

I've hiked not nearly that many miles before.

And when you say 20 miles, it just sounds like a lot, even though in reality,

like you said, the 20 most beautiful miles of your life.

I'm looking forward to it, you know, a lot.

And that was one of the things when you said, okay,

if you want to do this overnight thing is where we go up in camp and then go

down or whatever. I was like, yes, like, even though it's a lot,

I want to do it because I want to experience that. And I want to,

I know I can do it even though it sounds like a big, a big task right now,

me being in Indiana and I, for crying out loud the other week,

I just walked around the block from, from my work. It's like, it's just over a mile.

And it was, it was kind of hot out,

but I was recording some audio for an audio journal and my wife listened to it

later and she said, I could barely listen to that. Cause you're panting so bad.

I'm like, I know, I know I got to, I got to,

but it's like I was trying to talk.

I know it's so well, yeah, that's going to boost the confidence for sure. No,

but I mean, but in all reality, like I knew,

like there was a difference because I was talking and trying to walk and,

and it was hot out and all of this stuff.

So I know that there's a difference there. So, yeah. And it'll, I mean, so I,

I have a, I have a bit of a, you know, we,

there's pretty well known hiking formulas out there or whatever, okay.

If you're under load, like we're going to carry backpacks and whatnot,

and it'll just be one night's worth. So really you're talking like, okay,

we're going to carry sleeping systems, shelter, and then, you know,

enough food for the two meals or whatever that we're going to miss or take in the

back country. So around that,

we're going to be hiking around two to two and a quarter miles an hour.

That means, okay, so 10 miles up and over into the,

into the wilderness, into Alaska basin, the wilderness. So that's,

you're expecting five hours there, but for every thousand feet of altitude,

you gain expected to add an hour. So for that,

you kind of just go like, okay, this is going to be an eight to nine hour hike.

And if you mentally tell yourself it's going to take that long, it's not a race.

It's not something to, I need to, it's not something to, to like to complete.

It's something to enjoy. Yeah.

And that's really where I think the mental side of it is like, oh, I'm,

I'm going to be in a intentionally physically uncomfortable,

but I'm going to be so much more spiritually refreshed.

And that's where the trade-off is, is like, okay,

I'm going to put my body through something far more uncomfortable than usual,

but my soul is going to just be giving me these deep, long sighs of,

looking for this. This is exactly what I was waiting for. Right. And I think for,

for me, this trip is going to be great. You know,

I know that Joel's going to be going on it, but quite honestly, for me,

like Joel and I are good friends and I'm hoping to spend some time alone and

with other people. So like for me, I've mentally prepared myself saying,

I'm not going to talk to Joel as much as I normally do just because I want to get

time with God and with other people too. So yeah,

I'm really looking forward, forward to the trip for, for those reasons. Yeah.

Yeah. I love the, what you see come out of people, um, with their different,

different personalities, you know,

different personalities when you get into this space. Cause that,

that's what just my observation over the last five years.

And I think now I've got guys who have come from California and Washington and

Iowa and Indiana and Michigan and Pennsylvania, uh,

and Nebraska. Uh, and I'm sure that I'm missing somebody.

When they get into the same space, no matter where they came from,

they get into that space,

something clicks and there's this camaraderie that instantly it forms.

It just like, Oh, we're in the mountains together guys.

Like this is, this is the hardcore cool stuff. And, uh,

we're going to sleep outside and we're gonna, you know,

and we're going to cook over the fire and we're gonna, Oh man. And the,

and at any given time, a grizzly bear could just show up and decide,

they want to be part of the adventure too. Crunchwrap supreme.

So like, I, I just think it's, uh, I mean, as far as like this,

whether you want to call it the, I think it's an existential thing. I mean,

there's just the adventure side of it. It's like, and, and for somebody listening,

it may not be about, okay,

you're connecting with the wilderness and the mountains.

It's really not about that adventure does not have to be the, I mean,

that's just a context. Yeah. The, the longing for adventure has much more to do

with this personally connecting with something outside of ourselves and having

something that feels out of reach and asking, do I have what it takes?

Could I do that? And then, and then do it. Yeah. Doing it. Well, it's,

it's the same time thing is, you know,

you mentioned people along the beach or people that are, you know,

swimming around Mackinac Island and you know, things like that,

just where it's like, it's, it's a big adventure. It's,

it's more than you think that you can do, but that's when you, I think see,

I mean, if we're talking Christian wise,

that's where you see that God helping you and showing up and like, yeah,

those are the times that you realize you can do more than you think you can do.

Yeah. And I think that if we can actually, if we can,

if we can embrace that, like that,

what that part of us that feels a little lost, like the,

the being on an adventure in our life, you know, uh,

then that can even be something we bring into, like, the real question is,

do you feel that, do you have to go somewhere else to grasp that?

And is that what then feels suddenly like, Oh, I'm finally alive.

Or is there something about that that connects with your actual daily life?

You know what I mean? You can,

you can have that in physics and engineering and mechanics and coding and, uh,

mean teaching, like all of those things can be adventure. Um,

if we have that perspective or that mental outlook. Right. And I think,

I think it helps though, you know, when you get away from your daily grind,

you know, whether or not, you know, we, the three of us have have jobs, right.

And so we have responsibilities for every day. And then we have,

we all have us have kids that are going to and from and all different places.

And so this,

something like this allows us to step away for a short amount of time and go,

okay, I'm gonna completely separate myself from the normal, you know,

you've said there's no, no cell phone signal up there really.

And they try to keep increasing the coverage and I keep going, why,

don't do that. Don't do that. And so, and so that allows you to get away.

And, but at the same time, what you said too,

you could be here as long as you plan that out. So you're saying, okay,

for the day I'm going to go to, I mean,

there's hundreds of things within 50 to a hundred miles of here

that we could go, maybe not near near as grand and adventurous,

but things that we can do that would allow us to get away for the day or the

afternoon too.

And that's where the concept of retreat comes in. I'm just going like, okay,

this is not retreat because you're surrendering. This is retreat to regroup.

And it's more like a regrouping than a retreat. I mean, it's, it's like, okay,

how do I take a step back, rally and breathe? I mean,

and then

estimate and somehow take a, take a look at what's coming ahead.

And I think that that's always been just one of the more,

that was something that I can almost count on every single year being out there

is that while I'm there, mentally speaking,

I disengage so much from the normal regular day to day.

And while I'm there engaging this other different kind of, you know,

task or problem or adventure or, or, you know, uh, journey,

somehow the things that I was more worried about and concerned about from the

normal things back here, they clarify, you know,

they end up clarifying in that space. I feel a little more rallied,

or at least they end up feeling like these things that feel insurmountable about

things back home or back in, in the, uh, on planet earth, you know,

cause you have that reentry experience.

It feels like you've been in a different place. Um, they feel less,

they feel more manageable. The problems feel smaller. Uh,

then you just have a different perspective.

You get up a little higher and you just like, Oh,

I can see a little bigger picture now. Um, so that's, that's,

I think that's part of the wonder component of it too. And what,

what it means to embrace the wilderness side of it.

I think that's a biblical theme. I mean, yeah. Speaking very, very Christianly,

like, uh, Luke says, Jesus often withdrew to lonely places to pray.

And that's a way of saying like, Oh,

Jesus often withdrew to lonely places to connect with his,

to connect with his mother and, uh,

grasp the gravity of the next step or,

or regroup from the work and the output of the,

of what had just been accomplished.

It, it seems to me that, uh,

there is a real power in

being, uh,

that letting these foreign places alarm,

alarm us as to our

constant noise constant. Um,

it had someone share about a trip that they just took and did a boundary waters

and the individuals said that they, uh, I, they had, they had to use it.

I think, what did he say? He said, he said at night that he had to use either.

It was some sort of like earplugs or something because it was so quiet.

Like the, the, the level of the level of the lack, yeah,

the lack of noise or whatever it is was, you know, alarming. And it's like,

it's like, we should be alarmed by that. Like,

you know, like that's a good, like, that's a good check in. Right. Like, Oh,

Oh wow. And you know, up there where he is, it is,

it is illegal to have more than nine people per square mile. So, um,

yeah, like it's real. And they, and they enforce the Rangers up there will enforce,

like literally if there's more, they,

they enforce that as a noise ordinance violation. Really?

So there's just too many people, too many people that right now,

and that's everything from there. The trees. Yeah. Like the canoe paddle noise.

I don't know. But like that's, I think that that's the,

gosh, it is just, it is really, really good. And I, I'm really,

I'm just really intrigued by just the idea of having certain places or

experiences alarm us as to, you know,

these things that are missing in our life and these, these,

these components that are, I mean,

namely silence and solitude and solitude is a, is a, is a big one.

Um, I, and I know, I know from personal experience and I'm,

I'm due for, I'm due for another, probably a small,

like to work up to my experience, but like,

Your time is running short. You gotta get that in quick. Yeah. Yeah.

We gotta, we're running out of times to, uh, the,

I, I,

I know folks who say they desire these sort of things and try to run headlong

into them. And you begin to realize like, uh,

even on the retreating side, it's like, yeah, that's actually, it's,

it's a little bit of a muscle that you have to strengthen.

If you just go in head, head first and be like, Hey,

I'm just going to remove myself from all, all things. And like,

I'll see you in two weeks or whatever they call it, the anechoic chamber.

Jump into one of those and it just drives you nuts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

I think you can kind of have that experience. Yeah. Yeah. And people are,

you know, we're just like, no, Hey, try a day. Try two,

then try three. Um, it's essentially like, like fasting, you know,

when you first start fasting, you don't want to go for a whole, you know,

30 days fast. That's a ridiculous thing to do.

Even two weeks for your very first time is ridiculous. Right.

Three days, three days fasting. You're going to feel like, why did I,

this is like, you'll be angry.

So you start that out by doing a couple hours or a day or half a day,

and then you, you extend that. And so the same thing,

I think you're worth retreat. And I appreciate the fact,

I think one of the things that I really am looking forward to is,

is the fact that you are leading us, like you've been here however many times,

right. You know this and you know what to expect. And so like for me,

that takes out the need for me to, I don't want to say prepare,

cause that's not the right word,

but like for me to go to start worrying about things and figuring out, well,

okay, how am I going to do this? Cause I know that you and Adam, Adam, right.

Yeah. Yeah. Are gonna, are gonna be able to help guide us in those things as,

and so like for me, that's, yeah, that's something.

The value of a guide in all of this there there's a,

that seems to be another good solid biblical theme for sure. Right.

But so can you tell us, so you,

we've talked a little bit about we're going to be doing hiking, right.

And we're going to be doing some,

some camping, like what else? Like w tell me,

essentially the quick pitch that you were telling us that night when we were

sitting in the coffee shop and we were all going, yes, this is awesome.

Let's do it. And some of us are going, I don't know that I can do this,

but I'm still gonna go like, what's, what's your pitch there. So really my,

my hope, my goal is it's putting, you know, it's, it's having a,

having a finger on the pulse of what Joel's describing.

They were saying like, we are too busy.

We are too future oriented and, and to

in our, in our day to day lives. I mean, you could,

you could go any different number of directions. You could have the Tyler Durden,

you know, feel from the, you know, from Fight Club. I mean,

like there's something about us that feels like we are alive, but,

but not living. And there's a, oh man,

I just heard this not, not just heard it.

There's a beautiful song that's John Foreman sings. He says,

don't let your spirit die before your body does. And it's like this,

wow. It feels very much like, okay, that on my arm,

what is it that we need to have that to keep that from happening? And for me,

it's, I feel like over the last few years, I've really put just kind of like,

the only way I know how to describe it is wonder is to say,

what we need is wonder. We can have adventure and lots of people can,

can look into adventure. And then if you only have adventure,

what you can end up with is like an adrenaline junkie experience of, ah,

I just want to have the next trip.

I just want to go and experience something I never had before.

Go somewhere I hadn't seen. And you just have this like next, next, next, next,

next. And so where wonder comes in is to say,

oh, what I need is to scale back, step back, slow down and feel small.

And I need to realize, oh, there's a bigger story happening around me.

And suddenly something I'm going to, I'm playing around with like a,

a kind of a principle I'm going to call the chaos ratio is like,

so in scripture, really biblically speaking, the wilderness represented chaos.

It represented like, there is no, like there's no,

there's nothing governing this space. It is wild.

You go into the chaos and suddenly the chaos that exists within ourselves,

well, there, if there's more out there,

then maybe I can actually suddenly get a handle on what's happening in me.

And the ratio is flipped.

There's more chaos in me than it feels like in the world most of the time,

because it's just such a governed space.

Like everything is like rule of law and someone's telling you where to be,

what to do and has expectations.

And so there's more chaos inside than outside. You get into this wilderness and

it's a, it's a bonafide designated wilderness. And you go,

oh, there's more chaos out there than in the inside right now.

Finally, the ratio flipped. And if I pay attention to this,

I slow down and it feels smaller

and suddenly there's this

rest happens, you know, where, where,

where rest happens because you have to go,

I can't possibly control all of this. And I, I have seen,

observed over, you know, these five, six years now that,

the more control I'm used to, the less comfortable I am in the wilderness.

And that has been a really profound, like thing to witness is that the people who

will have the hardest time with this with, with really,

I'm going to say leaning into wonder is the,

is we're the same people who are like used to calling the shots,

used to putting the I dotting the I's crossing the T's connecting the details

and, and putting the box together that we live in.

And suddenly we are not doing that anymore. And it's hard.

I remember, I remember a few years ago, again, doing a Northern,

doing a quadico trip up into Canada, you know, we're,

we're out in the wilderness there and we brought along a new,

my dad brought along a friend of his who though my father had done everything he

could to try to prepare him for this trip. The guy did not come prepared.

And my dad, my, who, my dad would call this guy close friend.

Was relationally sideways with him a good portion.

And I really analyzed,

I've really analyzed this over the years and several years back ago,

this happened, I really analyzed it. And it was part of it was like,

my dad was connected to this idea of like,

I told you what you needed to be able to do and you haven't done that.

And I am massively uncomfortable, like, like, you know, with,

with that, with that piece. And, and the part of me goes now, it's like, yeah,

it's like, right. A production engineer,

dad was experiencing somebody who was, yeah.

Who didn't get it. Right. Yeah.

And that's where you're kind of describing the difference between instructions

and guidance. And I'll tell you like the first, yeah,

the first time that I went out and so in 2018, just planning this,

like this personal retreat and I, and my, my,

one of my greatest friends ever Ray was with me and he was the one willing to

like, okay, we're going to jump in and let's do this. I trust you.

And man it was hard to not pack the day

and operate by an agenda of what needed to get done. And he was really good.

I was just of he was, God was teaching him a lot about Sabbath at the time.

It was just like, what if we, what if we just took at least one day?

Like what if we took a day and we didn't have a,

we weren't sure what was going to happen. Yeah. And there was this like,

prepare for the unexpected kind of thing or,

or be ready to be surprised kind of principle. And I,

that was really refreshing to me and ended up being one of the most important

takeaways from that, from that trip. Now,

I had just the greatest experience ever with him and I'm so happy for those core

memories. But he, there was, there was a principle that had to be learned,

especially for the masculine heart, our, our own, you know,

brotherhood in that experience of,

of leaning into wonder and realizing, oh,

there's something important about the world will move and work without my input.

No. Yeah. And, and I'm really small. Yeah.

And so sometimes you just need to, like,

I'll tell you another experience or another, you know,

way that that principle was kind of reaffirmed for me was one,

one year I was out there and so this was 2020,

so I couldn't take a whole bunch of people. The parks were all,

they weren't sure what was happening one day to the next, but one,

one guy was like, I'm still willing to go. Like, I'm, let's, let's make it happen.

I was really looking forward to this. If it's just you and me, that's okay.

Let's do it. And he was one day, he was like,

I am okay with you just deciding what to do any given

day. I trust you in this space. Let's just do it.

But I want you to do something for me, for you. And I was like, well, what is,

what does that mean? And he's like, I just, I want you to say,

I don't want you to worry about what I need. I want you to realize and lean into,

is there something here that you've never done that would be good for you?

And don't worry about if I have the capacity or the strength or if I'm going to

be up for it, like, I want that for you. Oh. And suddenly it was like,

okay, that's another new principle. Like that's another new thing of like,

of saying, what do I want for somebody else?

So for you guys coming on this group,

I want you to be able to have an experience there in this space of, of,

of having the adventure of accomplishing the adventure,

but also of being reintroduced to the importance of wonder,

because you can take that back home. Yeah. Like,

and when you have that as a value and you say, oh,

I can live with wonder and I can look at wonder and I can't,

and I don't have to just take it all at face value. Like,

I'll just tell you this today, this afternoon,

I wasn't sure what was going to happen. I've been as a, as a dude and a dad,

I've been really struggling recently trying to figure out what does it mean for

me as me to connect with my kids at

nine seven tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah.

Five and three. Yeah.

And know that I can't connect with them as my wife does.

And I can't connect with them as their uncle or as their grandparent or as,

you know, I have to connect with them as myself.

And what is it that I could do together? And we somehow ended up, I wanted them,

you know, it was great. Like we watched it,

we watched Peter Pan for the afternoons, like just kind of a down afternoon,

down Sunday thing. And then it was, okay, let's everybody go outside.

Beautiful day finally.

So we went outside and they were swinging and they were on the back.

The first thing we did after we bought the house was build a tree house,

tree fort kind of thing and give, give reason to be outside and play.

And my three year old was just thrilled. She was so happy. Daddy,

come and look at me, daddy,

come and look at me how high I can swing and she's swinging all by herself.

And then suddenly we wandered off a little bit and I, and, uh,

we have a wild patch right behind the, the swing set area.

And in the summertime you'll find berries in there.

And so suddenly we were just all picking wild black raspberries and wild

blackberries.

And we were connecting in the kind of way that I always feel like I should be

planning for and trying to make happen. It just suddenly it was just happening.

And it was like, I'm picking the blackberry and I'm handing it to her.

And she's just like, these are, I was like, Sophie,

you have had some blackberries today. And she just looked at me, she goes,

I love blackberries.

And like, we're just, they did not like, they didn't wander away. Yep.

We were doing this together.

And then I was clearing some weeds so that we could get to them a little easier.

And then all of a sudden that's what they're doing.

They had sticks and they're like trying to stamp them down and try to,

and I was like, man, that was way easier than I always,

like think that it's always like trying to work myself up mentally to

manufacture this connection. And they were just ready for it.

If I was open to it, you know, and that was important.

So what I'm hoping for is something very similar to that is what happens

for you all on these, on this trip, on these retreats is that,

you taste that wonder and you go, Oh, my heavenly father, my, my older brother,

my, my eternally older brother,

Jesus is waiting to show something to me to reveal something with me,

to lead me into wonder.

Introduce me to the grandness of his, of his space of this beautiful area.

Remind me how small I am, but how much he cares about me. And to say,

I'm so glad that we can do this together. Like I'm just, that's,

that's what it's all about for me. So I'm so excited. And I'm just, Greg,

I'll just say just real quick,

I'm so excited to experience this with you guys and, and my son. Yes.

That, that to me,

is just such a gift. I, I, and we haven't even been,

we're not even there yet. And I already, I already feel that sense of just like,

Oh man, that's, that's amazing.

So, so as we were talking, I looked up the word wonder,

a feeling of surprise mingled with Adam Ray admiration caused by something

beautiful, unexpected, unfamiliar.

Oh, that's so good. That's good.

Way to go. And he is like, man, that's the definition right there.

Of wonder. Oh, that's perfect. The unexpected. I mean,

that just power in the unexpected guys in our spiritual lives and our,

in our walks, how much unexp, like I, and, and Greg,

I feel like this is maybe,

I feel like you've preached a few sermons on this for sure.

The like, we don't, we don't appreciate, excuse me,

we don't approach our relationship with Jesus this way. I, I,

I'm on a, I'm on a dangerous, like I'm on a dangerous,

like internal rant right now with my, with just,

just religious life in general and my own and my own faith walk and all of this

where I just am being confronted. I don't know if I turned, I don't know,

I may be having a midlife crisis too. I don't know about all this,

but like just being confronted with like,

everything is packaged. Everything is,

there is so much plug and play, you know, Greg, you, you and I like,

like years,

years of upper level education of which I am in turn,

I am super grateful for at the same time. Like just,

there's, there was so much of it that's planned. There's steps you do year one,

year two, you get the, and then, you know, and before you know it, you go,

like, none of this was like,

like, Ooh, Ooh, what's going to happen now? Oh, wow. You know,

like none of it was that, I don't feel like much of it was that way.

It was kind of like, no, this is what you do. Get it done.

Move on to the next thing. You know, as, as it is, you know, obviously,

you know, for all of us in very, in various fears,

I just, I, I am just concerned.

I'm more concerned. I'm just, I'm super concerned about,

about that reality for so many and recognize,

I think the toll that it has taken on me,

I'm sure my friends, brothers and sisters, people that I've, that I've,

I've counseled and cared for. And

I mean, Greg, I don't know, guys, do we just,

do we need to go and just mess some things up? Is that what needs to happen?

Do you just need to, I don't know, sell all you have, go get an RV.

I don't know what, like some people do that, that sort of stuff.

And we watched them on Instagram and go, Oh, like, Oh,

wouldn't that be great. But, but really we have real lives to live here.

I just, I'm, I'm just as in this conversation,

I'm just reminded of these realities and something that just has rubbed me

wrong or realization I've woken up to is kind of this like,

yeah. How much wonder is there really in our life? How much,

how much unexpected is there really? How much do we, we just go, Oh,

didn't see that coming. Oh, it just, it just,

it really is. Whereas,

I think in various parts of history and other places,

I have to believe that people lived in a daily reality of didn't see that,

didn't see that coming. Oh my gosh, here we are. Oh, what next? Well,

Oh, you know, all, all of that sort of thing. And, and man,

and man that there is, I don't know, I haven't fleshed all that out,

but there's some weight to that. I think.

No, there definitely is. Cause I mean,

what you're describing there is the difference between, okay. So I mean, yeah,

if you're living under in, in a sense of oppression and poverty and a sense of,

well, what, what cataclysmic catastrophic thing is,

is around the corner is next week is next is the next day. And I mean,

you're talking about a kind of fearful way of living where,

where wonder the sense of the unexpected is not a good thing.

We're talking about wonder in a sense of the unexpected and the surprising is

something to anticipate and it will be good. But for many people, and I mean,

the, this is where the question of faith comes in and the question of joy comes

in. If we're joy bounded to, to life, like life is an adventure to live.

We have a sense of peace. We know where peace comes from.

We know where belonging is. And so adventure is not

adventure is not something that we have to muster to accomplish in,

in order of keeping something bad from happening.

That's war, right?

No adventure is something that we can, can, can desire,

because there is wonder to, to, to encounter.

But the other side of that is we live. I mean, if we,

if you don't have that joy or that peace,

if you don't have that hope and that stability and that belonging,

then wonder could easily probably be replaced by, you know, like,

I don't know if you would call it paranoia or terror or, uh, dread really.

I mean, and that's where, that's where, I mean, inside out too,

we're going to come all the way back around to this anxiety.

Like the idea of fear has control of your imagination and what I'm,

the only thing I can, okay. I see coming in the future is pain or, or,

or, uh, difficulty. And I've been there. I've, I've totally,

totally been there. Um, they have been there recently. I mean,

so this isn't like a constant state of, of anticipation.

I think really what it is is how do we reintroduce wonder into our daily

lives? And that will come about, that does have to be an endeavor of faith,

that we look at and say, okay, well, uh,

the good shepherd does lead his sheep into abundant life, life upon life. Oh,

my, my heavenly father does give good gifts to those who ask him, uh, even,

even I, as a, as an earthly father who, uh, don't get everything right,

can muster that amount of love. Um, oh, there is this, uh,

he's working all things for good of those who love him and are called according

to his purposes. And okay. So, well, what, in what way will this heartache,

this difficulty get worked out for good? I don't know. It hurts right now though.

I'll tell you that. Um, so yeah, I think that's where part of the,

the guiding of life does have to have to be part of,

we are not, okay. So let me just,

I'll kind of wrap that up thought up with we end up with the,

with the least desire for wonder,

maybe when we have an are used to the most amount of control,

but we were not designed to be autonomous independent beings. Yeah. We're,

we're not autonomous. We're not independent.

We're actually designed for dependence and that dependence is,

is beneficial. It's, it's to our good. Um, as,

as creative and exciting and adventurous as any of us are, we're not,

we're not a drop in the bucket to God's creativity, to the Lord's, uh,

to the Lord's desire for adventure and working restoration and redemption.

I mean, we're now on our restoration and redemption story. Um, but the more we,

the more we dismiss or re or resist that dependence and crave and claim that

autonomy and independence, I think the more we push wonder out of our life,

because it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit now.

Yeah. Well, and gosh, that's,

that's so true. And I, I think, you know, for those listening, I,

I would encourage you as I, as I will, um,

I'm going to process that out of that idea. I'm going to, um,

apply these ideas to our daily life. Now, as we experienced them,

take a look, use this as a, use the, the wonder filter,

um, by the way, it's the title of the book that we will write about this.

We, uh, the wonder filter, uh,

the mountains and midlife crises, uh, sometimes, no. Um,

but applying the wonder filter to things and, and,

and taking a look at how you're experiencing life daily, um,

is wonder a component of it? If not, why is it these controlling,

these controlling factors, these, these postures that we've determined that are,

that are stealing it from us? Um, I mean,

I think you, you, all of us here at this table would agree, like, you know,

if God is who he says he is, and we believe that he is like,

there's a whole lot more life out there. Like there is, there is,

and it is a veil and by the way, it's not, it's not secret. It's not,

it's not hidden. Like, um, the way,

the way like a mean person hides something from you to keep it from you. Uh, it is,

it is hidden because we are like not aware. Like we are,

we are just like, we are, we are in these places where we were too easily.

Satisfied. Yes. That was the whole mud pie thing. And CS Lewis, this whole like,

Oh, we could be, you know,

a vacation at sea and we're just like playing these on the shore,

isn't this great? That's like, Oh, well, okay. If that's what you're into, but,

but there is, there is more and just so easily sad. Yes. Easily satisfied,

easily satiated. Um, and, uh, with,

with things that do not, with things that do not last and getting,

you know, we're talking here, it's like, we're getting out into God's,

God's country, literally, um,

to, to shake us up a little bit, to put us in a different,

to put us in a different setting, but not, but, but not just for that alone.

Like it is, it is a, it is both a,

it's a metaphor wrapped in a, an enigma.

There's, there is this, there's this other, this,

there's other worldliness that goes in beyond the immediate experiences as,

as God uses his creation to do to point us to things that are,

are beyond the beyondness.

I think this has been a super helpful episode and I really appreciate you coming

out and talking to us about this. And I think Joel,

we need to definitely have a followup episode to this.

And I'm, I want to right now, invite anybody who's gone,

going on this trip with us to be on, on the call with us. So we can have,

we can talk about that. Cause I think that that's going to be,

it can be helpful because I think we'll be able to talk about our experiences and

just kind of as best as we can put that into words.

And I think that that's going to be tough as to put this experience into words.

And then, I mean, you've been there however many times, I think Greg,

and you've, it seems like there's still that awe and wonder in your eyes.

Every time you come back, it doesn't get old.

And so like I think I'm going to have a tough time putting things in words,

but we'll try.

Yeah. And, and the,

what I almost guarantee is, as is if, if you're prepared, you're,

if your heart, your mind, your body, body, great, but,

but mind and heart prepared enough, what's going to happen is you,

you have this experience and then you immediately go,

how do I share this with somebody else? And like, yeah,

the next year you're taking a family vacation back out there and you want to

bring that in. And, and I don't want that to be about the context.

Cause the context is always shifting. It's always changing. It's not about,

there's nothing magical about the Tetons about Northwest Wyoming. I mean,

I just, it happens to be the place that captured my imagination, right.

And introduced me to this wonder. And so it makes it easy,

but that sense of how do I actually, yeah.

How do I embrace this value in my Monday,

every other Monday of the year? Like, uh, how do I embrace this value with my,

with my child, uh, as they are climbing their own mountains,

as they are preparing for their own wilderness, uh,

how do I help them take stock of and, uh,

account for their resources and be satisfied with something called enough

instead of like, Oh, I have to,

how do I make sure that I have more and more and more than what I, you know,

that kind of thing. I think,

I think that's what it ends up being all about.

And that's what I'm hoping for you guys and the other, Oh, let's see,

how do we have 12, 14, there's 16 total, I think.

So there's two, you two. So the other 13 plus the three of us. So yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Going to be a great trip. We're looking forward to it. Um, Greg, thank you.

We are just always so thrilled to have you here.

Thanks for hanging out with us and talking with us. Um,

hope the conversation has been helpful to others as inspired some potential awe

and wonder and sense of adventure. Uh, maybe the need,

the need to not just plan another vacation plan, plan something.

I was trying to think of like an awesome and wonderful plan.

Yeah. Something awesome and wonderful plan.

Do something like this, whatever, whatever level you can, but, uh,

Andy's hitting buttons. There we go.

As always, you guys, you can send us, you can send us an email over at tunes,

and dad's podcast@gmail.com. You can always, always,

always join us during our live sessions, which happens Sunday evenings,

every other, roughly every other Sunday evening. And, uh,

we would love to have you on our zoom call where you can listen and join and

potentially be a guest on the show and ask questions to people.

So join the community, uh, guys get on the socials, like it, follow it,

do all this stuff. It's always helpful to get on that community.

A lot of really great things happen over there.

Would love for you to be part of those things. Uh, thanks for listening.

Thanks for hanging out. You can call our voicemail to 574-213-8702.

Always great guys. We look forward to seeing you next time. And until then,

we wish you grace and peace.

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