Leila Ainge delves into the digital rooms where women entrepreneurs lurk, to discuss the relationship between impostor phenomenon and psychological safety. With the insight and expertise of Christina Clark and Laura Stearn from Workculturati, this conversation unravels the benefits of lurking behaviour, visibility pressures, comparison traps, and the elusive promise of level playing fields in online communities.

Uncover the three core themes identified in Leila's research and join the conversation as Christina and Laura lend their expertise on psychological safety, DEI, and the cultivation of online environments which foster vibrant, equitable communities.

This episode is an absolute must listen for anyone leading or participating in online spaces, looking for actionable insights on creating cultures that empower, rather than inhibit, the entrepreneurial spirit.

Connect with Leila online at https://www.leilaainge.co.uk/ and find her on Linkedin and Instagram @leilaainge

Learn more about Christina and Laura’s work and  Workculturati at https://www.workculturati.com/ 

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Mentioned in the podcast

• Amy Edmondson
• Timothy Clark

Psychologically Speaking is produced by Buckers at Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

Welcome to psychologically speaking with me,

Leila Ainge This is a podcast

all about human behaviour, weaving

together fascinating research, opinions and real

life experiences. I'll give you a psychologist's

insight into how we behave in spaces we live

and work in, and how they in turn shape

us. You this season we're exploring

my favorite topic, imposter phenomenon.

So get comfy and let's dive into today's

episode.

Online communities and social platforms have become an

extension of the traditional office.

My research specifically looked at online communities

and asked the question, what are women entrepreneurs

experiences of impostor phenomenon?

My research identified three themes,

visibility and the pressure to show up online

comparison with other women, and the idea that

online spaces can create level playing

fields. But that final theme, with its

sporting reference, really speaks to the

competitive nature of business and

entrepreneurship. It also reflects

what happens when psychological safety is

and is not present. To help us

understand how impostor, and psychological safety go hand

in hand, I'm delighted to be joined today by two friends

with expertise in psychological safety and

diversity, equity and inclusion from

work culture. Arti

Christina Clark is a psychosynthesis leadership

coach, London School of Mediation certified

Mediator and accredited psychological Safety

practitioner. After nearly a decade and a half

working in brand advertising and communications with a

range of FTSE 100 governments and agencies

through work cultural, Christina has cultivated

a community of handpicked experts to support

leaders and organizations. Having worked

in the UK, Spain, Colombia, Australia and most recently

Luxembourg, she has a truly global

purview and champions intercultural awareness

through all of her work. Laura Stern

is a consultant at work culturalty and has a

diverse professional background. She started her

career in the tv industry, working as a production

coordinator on various tv

documentaries and selling documentaries and drama

programmes to international broadcasters.

Laura ventured into entrepreneurship by

opening her own online stationery company called Fold

and Seal. However, after running the business for

two years, she recognized that her true passion lay in

supporting and promoting female owned businesses.

This realization led her to shift a focus and join

an online business membership for women. As a community

manager, Laura was responsible for

fostering engagement and creating a supportive

environment within the online business community.

Additionally, she was part of the diversity and

inclusion team where she actively contributed

to initiatives aimed at promoting diversity, equality and

inclusion amongst the community's members.

Currently, Laura is completing her master of business in

equity, diversity and inclusion. This pursuit

will further equip her with advanced knowledge and skills to drive

meaningful change and create more inclusive environments

within the business community and beyond.

Christina and Laura a very warm

welcome to the psychologically speaking podcast.

It's great to have you here.

Great to be here, and thank you for inviting me,

Leila

Thanks, Laura.

Super excited. Thanks both. Lovely to see you.

And you, Christina, I think first

up, Christina, I just wanted to come to you and, to

say, can you tell us a little bit about what

psychological safety actually is?

Absolutely, Leila The conventional

definition that's used comes from Amy Edmondson, who, of

course, wrote the fearless organization. And it

suggests that psychological safety is the belief

that one will not be punished or

humiliated, for speaking up with

ideas, questions, or

concerns. But there's been quite a lot of

misrepresentation about what that actually means in

practice. there's a nuance, I think,

people, that it means creating a cozy

environment to a certain extent. It's not really about

that. It's not about being overly

nice, avoiding saying things like they

are. it really is about how do you create an

environment where you can have high

performance? And to do that, I think you have to

sort of do a bit of contracting around what that learning

environment looks like. So I think if everyone

is aware.

That they're there because they're there to.

Learn, to grow, to develop, they have a growth mindset about

psychological safety, and it's possible to maintain it.

I really like the fact that you

talk about it not being too cozy,

and that's one of the things that I'd really thought

about when I was speaking to women as part of the

research, because there were definitely women

who were like, this feels like a really safe place for me. I could

say whatever I like, warts and all,

and yet I'd got other women who were saying, but

when I see women do that, sharing

absolutely everything, I don't think that's healthy,

either. And I do wonder, is there a balance

to be struck, and how do we know what that is? And

I suppose, what does the psychological safety

research tell us about knowing what

is the right level of comfort

versus challenge?

Absolutely. So I think this is really interesting, this notion about how do you

construct.

A level playing field?

And I think it's to do it, of course, in person, let alone

when you're kind of thinking about an online community

that might be in flux all the time. And obviously, the nature

of the online is that you can't really physically see it. You don't

know what's going on behind, people's,

computers, where they're at, how to

understand what's really intended by what's written.

There's lots of tonal things that could be inferred. I

think if we come back to the sort of. The kind of key

areas of what it means to have psychological

safety, you've got four key pillars that Amy

refers to. One is she talks about inclusion and

diversity. So she's very clear

on that nuance as well, that to be

included is the first part, because then you

can bring diversity, and

then you've got willingness to help. How do

people feel about stepping up and sort of saying, hey, can

I support this other person in the community? Et cetera?

How willing are they? Then there's the question

about attitudes to risk and failure. Am I

willing to fail publicly? Obviously, when

you're talking about entrepreneurs, perhaps in a community together,

it be, a bit competitive for all, though there might be a

collaborative narrative. There's probably a sense of like,

oh, gosh, if I put my hand up with this

feeling, am I better or worse than the next

person? And we already have a self judgment around what

asking for help requires. And of course, we all know that leaders

sometimes struggle with asking for help anyway.

apart from attitudes to risk and failure, which,

if we have this learning environment,

then we don't mind putting stuff out there.

We're happy to sort of, learn from

the kind of conventional, wisdom, to be humble about

what we don't know, but also what we do know. And,

then there's this fourth pillar, which is about open

conversation. So, how able do I

feel to contribute, to be vulnerable,

to be candid, to be confident,

to be a part of these inclusive dynamics. So I

would say those are the sorts of kind of key areas

that we like to think about in psychological safety. And I

know, know Timber C. Clark talks about his four

stages as well. He's very keen on that kind of

inclusion. Safety, the learner safety contributor

safety and challenger safety. And I think that challenger piece is probably

the one where we maybe fall.

Apart a bit more when it comes to imposter phenomenon.

Absolutely. Yeah. I really

liked, the Timothy Clark stuff, and I think it was him who

said, know, one of the symptoms

of, a lack of psychological safety is

silent workspace or workplace.

And this was really interesting in the research,

because the one thing that really surprised me

was just how much value women

got from being silent observers in

online spaces. So, in one respect, we're

saying inclusion is really important,

participation in being able to be vulnerable and be

part of the conversation. But if you're a

community host, and I'll come to laura in a

bit, and talk more about this, because she's had direct

experience and will probably have wonderful

insights to share with us. But if you're a community

host, the narrative and that tonal piece

you talked about, Christina, is what we see

and hear. The silence is deafening,

isn't it? Sometimes up to 50,

60% of members of online spaces may

not be actively, or what we call, they're more

passive contributors. So the psychology

behind lurking in online spaces is really well

advanced. We know a lot about it, and it's

gone from being something that has been seen as a shady

activity to something that we now,

really recognize as giving social

capital and value. And certainly that was the conclusion

of my research. But isn't it interesting, isn't it

interesting that to have psychological safety means that we

should be able to contribute, but our online spaces are

probably not quite designed. They're not mature enough yet, are

they, to really help us

accommodate people who have that passive need

or want that passive engagement?

so I think that, for me, is where psychological

safety gets really interesting, and I think it helps us

to challenge how we're running our online

workspaces.

Yeah. And if I could maybe jump in there as well.

There was an HBR piece. I know you and I, Leila

discussed a bit about, this sort of concept of how do you do a

courageous audit of your workplace. I suppose this could

also be applied to the online space.

When we don't speak up, what's the

cost of not speaking up? So even maybe if

you're a lurker, perhaps there is a benefit there.

But if you are witnessing something or perhaps

some behavior that's making you uncomfortable and you're not able

to speak up, then you are, I suppose,

also kind of complicit in creating

environment that is not conducive to learning

or developing yourself as an, entrepreneur or

your business. So, I suppose we need to think about

what the actions that we're not taking

and what's the impact on that, on our overall

well being, and therefore the well being of the community.

So I think what we're saying here is that the

relationship between impostor and psychological

safety is really important. It's important

because we know some of those pillars that Amy talks

about are, ah, going to create spaces that

are going to enable people to be vulnerable when they need to be

vulnerable, to be supported and included. But

I suppose the research also demonstrates

that we know that there are

challenges in the ways in which people

like to participate. I'm really

interested in hearing from Laura about her

experiences of being a community manager. But first of

all, we're talking about diversity, equity,

and inclusion, and those are three terms that

are used quite widely. But,

Laura, I wonder, could you just break that down for me? What

is diversity, equity, and inclusion, and what is the difference as

well?

Absolutely.

I suppose that there's definitely, I think, a big

difference, between the three

terms, but if you want them all to

succeed, you kind of have to make sure that they all

exist together. I think when we're talking about

diversity, it, refers to a wide

range of identities that include, but

aren't limited to, race,

ethnicity, gender, religion,

disability, sexual orientation, and also

socioeconomic status, which I think a

lot of the time is actually lost, maybe, under

the diversity heading. And then

equity is all about access and making sure that

everybody has an opportunity for

support, benefit, and everybody

has equal opportunities, and then

inclusion. As Christina said at the

beginning, when we're talking

about Edi, or know, maybe

it should be know, inclusion is so important,

and you can't have the others unless inclusion

exists first. I know a person who I

really admire, Ferca and Carriell. She will refer.

Sometimes people can imagine these things.

If you have a description of it or a picture, she

will describe that diversity is being invited to the

table, and inclusion is sharing the cake

fairly. And then I suppose we'll bring in the

equity where, well, yes, if everybody has a piece

of the cake, but is that cake accessible to them? Is

it suitable for them? Can they actually have that cake,

or would they have an allergic reaction to

that cake? So that's how you can have all of these

things exist, but without inclusion.

primarily first, we can't

have the rest.

And that makes a lot of sense. And we saw this through the

research. So women were saying that equity piece

was really important. They were saying, I want to

participate in ways that work for me. So that's that bit

of saying, I've got my cake, I'm at the table, but

is it the right cake? Can I contribute in

silent ways? Can I be passive when I need to

be? How can I be included in

a way that works for me?

Absolutely.

And do you have access to the

resources that are available? And I think when we speak about

equity and social capital, it is all

about sharing resources. And, I

think being part of an online community, I

think it's very important that when you join, that

you feel that you have this equity, that they feel that

from the get go, that they have access

to resources and

information, and that they feel comfortable also as

well. And this where obviously the psychological safety comes into it, that

they feel comfortable then in sharing their own information,

and therefore, then their social capital is increased

then. And I also think it's important to mention

that when we think about online

communities, and if you're a host or if

you're a leader, and are those

policies and practices put into place, which we can talk

a little bit about later on as well, to make sure

that equity exists for all

members?

It's really interesting. I mean, I work in a number

of different spaces, so, at the moment, I've been

spending a lot of time in organizations and working

back in offices. And when we have meetings,

we tend to be very aware of who

speaks and who doesn't. And certainly

as a, ah, change leader, I will catch

up with people after meetings and say, I'm really interested in

your view there, or, thank you for

contributing. is there anything else you want to add?

And there's a sense, certainly from the research,

that women were reflecting on the

fact that sometimes the pace of

conversation and threads in online

spaces just really

negates that ability to reflect. So sometimes

it helps, as in, they can jump in on a thread a

week, two weeks later, and go, oh, I found that really useful.

Thank you.

Or they can add in a comment, or they can go

away and think about something without

being put on the spot. But other times,

threads or spaces can operate in a very fast

paced way. So threads can get lost, and

people feel that they're not able to have that reflection.

There's this pressure to perform, isn't there, in the

moment? And sometimes with the way in which

online spaces work with live events and

live learning, that can be a real

challenge. So I think what we're starting to

see is that some of the nuances that we're

very able to cope with in our

traditional workspaces are, no different, actually

in our online workspaces. But we're not thinking about

it in that way. We tend to think online is completely

different. And as a cyberpsychologist,

my purview on this is very much online is an

extension of the real world and real

life. So clearly, those DeI

factors really have to come in in the

same way for online spaces.

Absolutely.

And it's really interesting you should say that,

because when I was doing, like, the

reading and thinking a lot about this podcast,

there's a lot of crossovers, actually, between

the traditional workplace and online

spaces to make them equitable. So you have

the likes of to use inclusive language in

your guidelines. You would do that in the workplace, having

accessibility measures so they're different from

your bricks and mortar, making sure that's accessible

to actually having your online space accessible as well

are videos captioned, your website design,

is it accessible for all? And, like, dealing with

conflicts and harassment. Is there somebody

there to make sure that they're picking up on any offensive

language?

And there is definitely a lot of.

Crossover and you're absolutely. I totally agree

that they are becoming very similar

spaces. And I think since

the pandemic that

we all went through, that has heightened it even

more because we have really shifted, like a

huge amount of percent, I'd imagine. I don't know the exact number, but

onto online spaces and from

remote working.

And everything else, that final

theme, online level playing fields.

This was the sense, I mean, the research happened

just after lockdown, had eased,

and women were saying, do you know what these

online spaces, for the first time have given me? Platform,

they've given me voice, they've given me a space. And,

yes, they're competitive, but I'm happy

and I will work within that competitive space because

it is more geared up to me as an individual. And

this is direct contrast, isn't it, to,

the networking events that we've experienced? I'm

sure we've all experienced these, where you go to,

a coffee morning and, there's a bunch of people you

don't know and you've got to put out your business card and you

have to think about saying who you are. Something that

I personally struggle with, because I've got

maybe two or three different hats on, depending what kind of

consultancy work I'm doing at any one time.

so these online spaces allowed people to

really curate their identity

and, to be able to work on

doing things in their own pace. So it's

no surprise to me that we're still using both and

that we're integrating them as well. And it's been really

interesting to see the communities that have started to thrive

by complementing face to face gatherings

with those online spaces. And again, that, for

me, feels like another prong of the inclusion, doesn't it?

Because different things work for different people.

I think what I was really interested

in is, I

suppose, how does a lack of Dei shape,

online spaces? What kind of things might

we see in online spaces

and communities if we've not got that Dei right?

And these could be things that listeners could be thinking,

oh, I've experienced that, or, oh, actually, I see

that in my own space. What kind of

pointers have we got in terms of what would be

a, red flag for us?

I think silence can be a red flag.

And I know we spoke briefly just about the lurking, but also

a drop off in members, and I think that's a

sure, definite sign that it's not

working for people. And I also think a lack of

diversity, when you look at your online community, you

have to look at it as a whole and say, well, who's here and

who's not here? And how do we reach the

people that aren't here as

well? And if somebody

turns up to sign up to your community and they don't see

themselves there, they immediately

go back on themselves, and that psychological safety,

then, is not there when they don't see

representation. So I think representation is really

important. And,

Dei then fails in that regard. When you

join and you don't see anybody that's similar to you. Yes,

you can learn and you can share from other

people, but to form real connection,

you need to be able to see yourself and

have representation there as well. I think

to be true and to feel a true sense of belonging

as well.

It feels to me that onboarding, I mean, we get

onboarding right in some organizations,

and we get it horrifically wrong in others.

I've seen both sides. And, I'm interested

in Christina. From a culture perspective,

we know onboarding is brilliant,

and it helps us retain staff, and it bridges the

gap. So we're talking here about, we have

to have an environment where people feel

represented, and sometimes they might not be.

So that onboarding process becomes even more important, doesn't it,

to support somebody. But even if you

are represented, even if you do see people like you,

what we're saying is that impostor experience

can actually really take away from

the richness of a room full of people like you,

because that comparison creeps in.

And I wonder, from a culture perspective, the things, the good

practice you've seen in organizations that

we could probably transfer to online spaces. What

could we do?

Absolutely. And I think some of this ties into, as well, what Laura

was saying before about the importance of

policies and practices. And I'm going to

cite something that, Priya Parker says in her book, the acts of

gathering, which I think is all the art of gathering. Sorry.

She, talks about gathering in physical

spaces, and there was a quote, a brilliant quote that she used,

from a conflict resolution

expert that talked about how

90% of what makes a gathering

successful is what happens,

what's put in place beforehand.

Yes. While having policies

and all that sort of stuff is important. I think

the most important thing is the co creation, because,

of course, our experience might not be

fully attuned to the lens of the other person that you're

talking to. And therefore, you want to make sure that

they can represent themselves in the kind of

refining of what that policy would look like in

practice for them. So I think to a certain

extent, you've got to kind of really work hard to

co create this stuff with all the people who are involved in

the community so that they also have,

skin in the game. Because, I mean, there are

overarching things that make us all feel like we're

part of a community, trust and respect. These things

are universal, but the way that we get there

is individual. So I think we need to try

and create that supportive feel by

making everyone feel like they have a voice,

within what's possible. And of course, you might not be able to cater

to every single nuance and a thing,

but if you're trying to do the work and that's

your intentionality, the

reflective aspect of this. and then, of

course, change is leader led,

but I really believe that you need to have different

leaders within that piece to make

that it's successful. I think we've articles

recently talking about how companies

spend a lot of time hiring heads of inclusion

and diversity. Diversity,

and then they are being set up to fail because

the companies are then saying, okay, now you're in charge, off you

go. You can resolve this problem. And it's almost like everyone

else is absolved of participating in

what it takes to do that work. So

I think we need to make sure that there are lots of people

who are ambassadors for this work to make

sure that we have that kind of supervision element. When we're doing

coaching and mentoring, we have supervisors. I don't see

why that should be different. Actually, in the online space, we call them

moderators. But I think mods feels a bit more passive.

builders and growers who are going to make this

work, sing and continue over

time.

It definitely feels to me that in online

spaces, those community leaders and hosts who can come

together and talk to other hosts and leaders are definitely going

to end up creating spaces that are

richer and more inclusive as we move

forward. But I'm really interested in that ambassador

idea. When I talk about

ambassadors, what I'm thinking about is the power that we've

all got to shape the spaces that we're in. And, this

was really me thinking around. Okay, so we've done

the research, and we're saying here that imposter

experiences can thrive in spaces

where psychological safety is low. But

rather than waiting for a host or a leader to

create, a policy and to put those good practices in

place, there's a couple of things that we can be

doing. I read recently that we

hold back 40% of all the

wonderful thoughts we have and praise we have for people.

So, compassionate spaces, spaces where we're

willing to give praise, more often than not, are

going to encourage people to be vulnerable

and also to be validated and to

contribute. Likewise,

if we're brave enough to give

feedback, even the tricky stuff

that gets to the heart of that thing you were talking about right at

the beginning, Christina, which is psychological safety

is not comfortable. This isn't about being

sitting in a cozy little armchair in the corner of your

community and feeling like you're part

of a gang that, all gets on in a very

clicky, actually, that has happened in some

spaces I've been in, and it's not so helpful.

What we're talking about is that ability to

constantly challenge in a productive way, in a

constructive way. So I think what I

want to be able to say to people listening is, if you're in a

space and these things aren't happening for you, then you

do have agency just by either giving

feedback and saying the positive things or

constructively challenging. They're two very simple

things that we all have that we can

do.

Absolutely. I think this is where we can, reference the work of the

wonderful Nancy Klein.

About time to think. What a masterpiece.

And also talking about appreciative inquiry, how we

can obviously focus on strengths,

cultivating this culture of appreciation and recognition

to boost confidence and self esteem.

This is really a productive

way of just generally showing that

we care in a learning environment. Of course, there's

lots of sides to the coin, but there are definite ways that we

can kind of embrace that vulnerability and

build on those positive aspects of

being an online community, being an organism that will

evolve over time, we will learn from the stuff that

doesn't work, and that's.

Yeah, and I think just when you say there,

Christina, that we learn from the stuff that doesn't work and being

open and sharing that.

Yes.

And putting your hand up and saying that didn't work. So

let's find a way to make it work.

We were wrong. And admitting that and moving

forward, like getting that constructive feedback,

and taking it on board and knowing that it's coming from a

kind place as well, and being able

to take it on board, I move forward and

make, things much better.

Yeah, I think these online spaces, and

we're talking here about the extension of what is a traditional

workplace. Even as entrepreneurs or

individual business owners, these spaces create

a team, and that team needs to

be working within the same cultural,

boundaries that we know work well in our

traditional workspaces. So we

need some structure. We need boundaries, we

need policy, and, we need to be able to say

what's on our mind and without that, fear

of saying the wrong thing. And, that fear of

failure. That is typical

impostor phenomenon. So if that

psychological safety is missing, people are going to miss

out on being able to say, oh, hi, this isn't

working for me, and I need this or I need that.

And really, it's a bad business model to go down that

route, because, like you say, you're going to lose members. We're going

to not have really rich environments

either, because we won't attract the right people into

the spaces that we want.

There's something here as well, about the art of being able

to be curious. How can we ask

questions if we're feeling uneasy? There's data in that.

And how can we that, unease into something that

makes somebody else in the community reflect, and

actually, maybe they realize that their

behavior or

their message or whatever has been misconstrued. So

you're kind of giving also an opportunity for that person to kind

of reflect on what place. So I

think there's really so much we can learn about

how to be curious. we often

rush, to react, and don't, give that kind of pause to sort

of think about what information

we're seeing and why that matters. How do we deconstruct

it?

Yeah, and I think the pause is really

important, Christina, because as

humans, we can't be expected to

straight away change our way of thinking that has

been embedded for years and years and years. So

maybe having online communities where you can kind of step

away as well and think about things,

rather than being in that work environment where you feel the

pressure of people around, you have that space to

move away, pause, think,

reflect, and then step back in and go,

okay, yeah, that was actually really

valuable, and I've learned a lot from that.

I think one of the things that I was quite interested in was,

doing some follow up research, because there was a little bit of data in

my research around people who'd experienced

entering spaces and exiting them.

And women move around these spaces a

lot. We're not talking about women

who go and sit in one space and stay there. Ah, women are

usually, in maybe three, four or

five different workspaces or online

spaces. Some of these can be very specific

around marketing, or it might be helping

them launch, a fundraiser

or crowdsourcing, and then others will be more general

or maybe themed around the fact that maybe you're a

parent or you're a freelancer. And so it was

really interesting to me that people weave in and out of these

communities and use them for different periods in

their career. And it

made me kind of wonder how well set

up are our groups for those ebbs and

flows? And I think I've certainly

experienced being a member of some groups where I definitely sit

on the periphery because I don't have the time to be in

there every single day. And some groups are really good

at making me feel like I am, still a very valuable

member when that happens. And other groups, I feel like I've just

lost the plot after a month and I think, oh,

maybe that's not the right space for me. So there's

something in that as well, isn't there, about when

we're in spaces? Is this going to be a short

period of time we're going to be in there? Do we give it our all?

Is it something we want to be in there part

time or temporarily? And

again, with the entrepreneurial community, there was this

recognition that we're all in competition, actually.

at a very basic level, we're all competing for

business with different types of customers. But

some of us are doing this part time, some of us are doing it full

time. That doesn't really matter, but we've got different needs that

come along with that as well. So I was kind of

interested in doing a bit of an extension on that, but.

So it would be interesting to see how our spaces

evolve over the next.

Couple of years, really.

That's true. And just to come in there, I think it was interesting what

you're talking about. We spend a lot of time, perhaps

community, spend time onboarding,

people. But, just as in the workplace, and I know you talked about this

too, Leila Offboarding is just

an offboarding. Could be for very good reasons. You want to

leave, maybe getting enough out of the community. You've got some

feedback. Make sure that people take that on

board. Maybe as in the workplace, people don't really fully

say what they feel about their community experience,

and that's a shame, because that data goes with them

and that could be a real opportunity to improve

the space. but also, what happens when

it all goes wrong? situation

where, a member of the community is making others feel

unsafe. It's the duty of the community,

leader or the moderators, community manager

to, really make, sure that that

person is respectfully off boarded.

And there's a kind of procedure in between about

how you do that. But I think those types of behaviors

are the ones that signal what

psychological safety is going to look like in

your community, because you can't perpetuate behaviors

that make people feel unsafe.

I think that's a really good point. And one of the interesting

things that happened in one of the interviews that I

did was an individual had actually off boarded

from, a workspace. And, they'd said that it felt more

like a sales pitch to keep them in. And I said, well, what would

have made that better? And they said, actually, I'd have felt a lot more

comfortable just telling somebody else in the group

why I was going. And I said, well, that seems

really simple. That's something so easy,

actually. You just leave some feedback with a

friend, and that friend can give it

to the person who hosts or leads the community.

And it doesn't have to be a big sales, kind

of process to try and keep you in. And I

think there are loads of little things like that that we can do. I mean,

clearly, when you leave an organization, you don't always give your

feedback directly to your line manager or, the

department you're working to. Sometimes that feedback is given to an

intermediary or a human resources department.

So even for spaces where it's a

one person leading out,

it's a low cost platform. I think these things are still really

important. They can be done creatively.

and that community, it gives people

roles within a community, which we know is

really good. It helps people take responsibility.

And what we were saying there around culture is that we have to all be

ambassadors. So if we say to people, if you

ever want to leave, that's fine. And if you want to chat to somebody else in the

group, we've got a way for you to do that, so that you don't have to have those

awkward conversations. And I think that's really

helpful.

I think the workplace should do that for sure. Definitively.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And also there's that research that says when people

hand in their notices and they've said what they want to say,

their performance, improves dramatically. So I'm sure that

the same could be said of online communities. Perhaps the barriers

of participation feel quite low because

you're off. So it doesn't really matter. You can just sort of be you.

You show up and, the pressure is off. Well,

I'm curious about that, too.

This conversation has been fascinating, and for me,

it really underlines where my

research was going, which was to say, let's stop thinking

about impostor phenomenon as a syndrome that

impacts the individual. Because when we start to take that

deeper, look into the context and the environment in which

impostor feelings exist, there's so much

we can do. Some of it is small stuff and baby

steps, and some of it's free, and

feedback is free. other bits, they're going

to take a little bit more strategic work and teasing out,

and there's so much that we can learn from our traditional

workspaces around culture and that

psychological safety. So the conversation has

really kind of brought that to life today. And I

hope that if people are listening, they're in a

community they've taken away, that you can make this

change yourself. You can be that kind of ambassador. If

you're hosting workspaces or communities, then

there's loads in here for you to think about. But also,

if you're in traditional workspaces, these things still

apply. People want different ways to

participate. Lurking and being

silent. Yes, it's an indicator that maybe

psychological safety isn't in place, but it's

also something that we need to nurture as well, because

it has a know that silence can be

really golden if we tap into it in the right ways.

Christina and Laura, I just want to say thank

you so much for such a really interesting

conversation today.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Leila

I've really enjoyed it.

Thank you.

The show notes are going to have details about work,

culturalty, and how people can work with you

and us around impostor phenomenon

and setting up, spaces for success.

And I think we're also preparing a white paper on

this, aren't we? We've got really deep into it, so, there will

be details on how people can access that white

paper from work culturalty.

Fantastic.

Thank you so much. Both.

Thank you.

Thank you.

What a great conversation that was.

Creating psychological safe spaces is a

practical way for us to reduce impostor experiences

instead of fixing the individual.

We're shifting from workspaces to wardrobes

next week, as I welcome Samantha, the style editor,

to psychologically speaking, you are going.

To love what she's got to say.

About societal expectations when it comes to what we

wear. And of course, we're thinking about the relationship

between clothes and, the impostor experience.

That's it for today.

I hope you learned something new, or perhaps I've given you

a new way to think about what you experience.

A quick reminder that rating and reviewing.

All the podcasts you love really does.

Help other people find them, which is especially

appreciated by independent podcasters. For

more psychological insights, you'll find all the ways you can

connect with me.

In the show notes.

Thanks for listening to psychologically speaking with me,

Leila Ange Bye for now.