When your child starts riding, you expect to make decisions about schedules, budgets, and maybe when they get their first pair of tall boots. What you don't expect is that before long you'll be making decisions about trainers, horse shows, safety, horses, and thousands of dollars in equipment for a sport you barely understand.

In this episode, I sit down with Jen Barker and Karen Tanner, hosts of The Scope Podcast, to tackle one of the biggest challenges horse moms face: figuring out who gets to make the big decisions.

We discuss everything from choosing a trainer and evaluating barn safety to deciding when a rider is ready to move up divisions, return after a fall, start working at the barn, or take on greater responsibility in the sport. Jen brings the trainer perspective, while Karen shares insights from her experience as a horse mom with two riders.

One theme comes up again and again throughout our conversation: trust. How do you build trust with a trainer when you're brand new to the horse world? When should you rely on their expertise? And when should you ask more questions?

If you've ever wondered where your role as a parent ends and your trainer's role begins, this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways

• Trust is built through communication, not blind agreement.
• Trainers should guide horse and competition decisions, but parents should be part of the conversation.
• Safety discussions evolve as riders progress in the sport.
• Horsemanship involves much more than simply riding.
• Parents should feel comfortable asking questions and understanding the "why" behind decisions.
• Clear goals help trainers and families stay aligned.
• Strong trainer-parent partnerships make the sport more enjoyable for everyone.

Guest Resources

The Scope Podcast

• The Scope Podcast website: https://www.thescopepodcast.com/
• Listen on Apple podcasts
• Listen on Spotify
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.scope.podcast/
• TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@the.scope.podcast

Resources

Big Dee's Tack & Vet Supply:

• https://www.bigdweb.com/ Use code BHM10 to get an additional 10% off your order.

Broke Horse Moms

• Website: https://brokehorsemoms.com/
• Newsletter: https://www.brokehorsemoms.com/newsletter
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brokehorsemoms
• The Swag Barn: https://www.brokehorsemoms.com/swagbarn - Use code BHM10 to get 10% off your order.

Special thanks to Steve Woodward, founder of The Podcasting Editor, for giving you all the best listening experience!

When your child starts riding, you assume you'll be making decisions about things like schedules, budgets, and maybe when they get their first pair of tall boots.

What you don't realize is that before long, you'll be making decisions about trainers, horses, safety showing, and thousands of dollars worth of equipment in a sport you barely understand.

Somewhere along the way, you're expected to figure out where your job as the parent ends and.

And where your trainers begins.

So how do you know when to trust your trainer?

How do you know when to push back?

And what decisions actually belong to the parent versus the trainer?

That's exactly what we're tackling today.

Welcome to Broke Horse Moms, the podcast for non horsey horse moms who are figuring out this wild world of equestrian life together as we go.

I'm your host, Angie Trueblood, and I did not grow up in this world either.

I'm just a mom who started Googling things like what is a lead change five years ago, and I've never looked back.

Okay, friend, let's get into it.

Well, hi, friend.

Welcome to another episode of Brokehorse Moms.

Today's guests are Jen Barker and Karen Tanner, hosts of the Scope podcast.

Karen is a horse mom who has navigated the sport with two kids riding, God bless her.

And Jen is a trainer who has spent years helping riders and families progress through the horse world.

If you have ever wondered who should decide when your child moves up a division, whether they're ready to get back on the horse after a fall, what tech they need, or even who signs up for horse shows, this conversation is for you.

We're diving into the parent trainer partnership.

How to evaluate a trainer when you're new to the sport, where that trust gets built, where the boundaries matter and the decisions that belong to the trainer, the parent, and sometimes the kid.

Let's dig in.

Jen and Karen, welcome to Broke Horse Moms.

I'm so excited to have you both on the podcast today.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Yeah, thank you.

We're excited to be here.

I am an avid listener of your show, and I started to hear this recurring theme about things that might happen at the barn or in competition or even with our horses, where it's necessary to trust the trainer.

And it got me thinking.

When we first came into this sport five years ago, I had no idea even what categories I would be considering to trust the trainer in.

And I think this will be great.

Jen, with you as the trainer and Karen, with you as the mom, what advice can you give to new moms as to what do you look for when you're considering a new barn or a new trainer.

Like, how do you kind of start on the right foot?

Well, I'm not sure that I started on the right foot necessarily.

I don't have a background in riding.

I think I just went, like, on social media.

One of my number one things was, how far am I going to have to drive to the barn and back every day?

That was a consideration.

I've got three kids and they didn't all ride.

None of them are driving.

So I sort of took my pen out, circled an area that I was willing to drive to, and started looking from there.

Yeah.

One place to start looking is try to go to the barn and meet that trainer.

I think most reasonable trainers would give you the opportunity to take a tour, depending on where you are in your equestrian journey.

Take a look at that trainer's schedule and see if their schedule really aligns with the horseshoes or the goals that you have in mind.

Something that people kind of miss a lot of times is you can ask for references.

I would be happy to give potential new students some references of current clients or previous clients.

And I've never been asked that.

And it always makes me kind of.

Wonder why that is such a smart idea.

Yeah, I asked around also.

I asked some people for recommendations, suggestions.

Jen was one of the people.

Did you know her beforehand?

No.

So of course I was one of them.

Yeah.

I mean, you tell me.

Did you notice how I didn't end up at your place?

Not to start with.

Oh, no.

Oh, in the beginning.

In the beginning, yeah.

Yeah, Right.

Karen.

It took a minute.

Karen's kids rode with somebody else, and then she heard I was mean.

Yeah, I did.

Yeah.

I had this reputation of being tough.

She heard that and she was like, no.

Okay, well, let's unpack that, because that is something that a mom might hear.

Oh, that trainer's really tough.

Or, oh, that trainer is really mean.

I now see that not necessarily as a negative, but as something that needs to be, you know, questioned and evaluated because I also don't want someone who's just going to pacify my kid.

So are you really mean?

I'm not.

And I think a lot of people have come to ride with me and been like, oh, we heard you were so tough, but then we got here and you're really not.

So I think that's important.

Also, I might be too tough for some people.

I might not be the right fit for everybody.

And that's another part of going and meeting, maybe having a lesson.

If Possible and talking to the other people.

Yeah.

And the thing was my kids were just starting out.

I think the word tough or mean, whatever that is, to somebody can feel a lot different.

I've got no issue with discipline, but what I didn't want was like a yeller.

You know what I mean?

Oh, just like rude and fully disrespectful.

Yeah.

That's was not going to be okay for me or for my kid.

I have a hard time paying people that are yellers and like just flat out mean.

I don't want to pay that person.

It's hard for me to give you my money.

Yeah, no, thanks.

I'm not that kind of woman.

No.

But eventually we made it to Jen.

Both my kids made it to Jen and they both really appreciated her style of teaching and coaching and so ended up being a good fit for us.

And I mean, we've come back to our trainer now.

So we started at a traditional lesson barn and I think, Jen, that's such a great idea.

But asking for recommendations and referrals from the actual trainer is huge because one, if they're not willing to give them, then that's a red flag to run the other way.

But then you can typically get kind of the down low from whoever's at the barn.

So I thought it would be fun today for me to throw out some scenarios where someone in this triad of trainer, parent and kiddo has to make a decision.

And I think we could just hash out like ultimately who should be making this decision.

And I have experience where I felt like the trainer overstepped their boundary into a parent decision.

And I have definitely seen when parents have overstepped into things that I think the trainer should only be in charge of.

So I think it'll be good to kind of hash it out.

Okay.

The concept of kids working at barns.

Jen, I don't know if you have students who work at your barn to either get money or a reduction in board or free lessons or whatever, but who decides if it's time or if a kid should be working at the barn?

The kid.

Right.

I think if a kid came to me and said, I want to work at the barn, that's a conversation that I would then, you know, say, well, is that okay with your parents?

But I would want the kid to be the one taking the leadership on that decision.

Okay, first of all, Jen hates it when people work at the barn.

That's true.

I'm telling on Jen because nobody does it like Jen.

Just ask.

No one does it like anyone is.

Supposed nobody does it like Jen, so.

Yeah.

But that's why I would like the kid to take the lead on that.

Because if a kid really shows a desire to want to come work at the barn, then they probably are going to be more likely to do the things in the way that I need them done.

Yeah.

Okay, so here's the scenario I want to get your thoughts on.

What if there's a kid who is working at the barn because they do get a discount for it, the kid kind of hates it, and the parent says, okay, maybe we can end this.

What if the trainer were to say, aren't we trying to grow horse?

Men and women, this is literally like the base level of horsemanship.

They need to keep doing it and figure out how to get better at it.

I mean, if the trainer thinks that the kid needs to be doing certain barn chores in order to.

Yeah.

Develop this understanding, connection to appreciation for whatever.

If that's the way they're doing it, that's the way my kid's going to do it.

Yeah.

And if they don't like it and they don't fit in there, then they need to rethink why they're interested in the sport.

Yeah.

It's interesting, when this happened, initially I thought, oh, as a parent, not really to give your kid an easy way out, but if it is this point of friction, you know, between you and your kid, you think the kid should be working.

And then when I heard the perspective from the trainer of, like, this is the base level of horsemanship is cleaning stalls, you know, not every day for sure, but to be able to do it effectively makes total sense.

Like, it's not that you're actually forcing them to work, you're just forcing them to partake in the whole sport.

Yeah.

I mean, certainly the trainer can't force anybody to work, but I think a trainer can insist that a certain level of skill be developed.

Yeah.

And she and I talk about this all the time.

The parts where people just roll up and jump on their horse.

Right.

That attitude.

I get it.

I see it a lot.

But is it the right thing?

Is it helping the sport?

Is it going to increase longevity in the sport for students or clients or whatever you want to call them?

I don't think so.

I think the more investment someone has in something, the greater the chance that they're going to stay with it.

I think that becomes a challenge for the trainer, though.

I think about this a lot.

My husband's in public education and, you know, years and years, they're just putting More responsibility on public educators.

And I feel like sometimes with trainers, depending on the size of your barn, you might not have a support staff, you know, and so you're trying to teach in the ring and horsemanship.

It seems like a big load, Jen.

It is.

A lot of times parents maybe think that the kids can be more helpful than they can be, and they don't realize that teaching these skills and overseeing these skills is actually more work for us as trainers.

And that's a hard concept to grasp.

There is a fine line, and I walk that line by trying to make sure my students know a certain baseline set of skills.

But also they don't always get to demonstrate those skills at the horse show.

Right.

It's sometimes just too cumbersome, too difficult for me to say, listen, all the kids are going to be here cleaning their own stalls in the morning.

I can't oversee that.

And so in order to make sure that the horses are kept at the highest standard or to my standard, yes, they might know how to clean stalls, but they might not be doing that at every horse show because I feel like I need to step in and streamline the process.

Oh, yeah, I actually saw.

I think it was Piper from the Plaid horse they posted.

I think it's a new series that they have.

Like, am I the donkey?

Yes.

And did you see, it was one where I think it was an adult amateur who, you know, really likes to kind of DIY her setup.

And she was shocked that after a show she got a bill and it included the fee for having someone else clean their stalls and tack up or whatever.

And I was like, oh, yeah, but they are running this tight.

Well, hopefully well oiled machine.

And you stepping into it doesn't take away from the expense and, you know, what you had planned.

Sometimes parents will want their kids to do all of the work either to avoid the daycare cost or because they want them to be part of that entire process, which I do understand both sides of it.

But what they might forget is that the kids get to the horse show till Friday afternoon, and I might have to get to the horse show on Thursday morning or even earlier.

And I can't take care of 10 horses by myself until the kids get there.

And I can't hire help for one and a half days.

And so the financial aspect and the workload aspect sometimes dictates how that structure works.

Yeah, but I think you have to be a communicator.

If you let your clients or your students know that ahead of time, they know what to expect.

Have the conversation before these things are happening and be the kind of trainer that allows for open dialogue.

Doesn't mean you're going to change their mind, but at least be willing to hear somebody out.

And I will say the financial aspect of the daycare is generally the least of anybody's worries.

For whatever reason, people don't really mind paying the daycare, but they would still like for their kid to have some experience or some input, which I think, actually if you can establish that on the front end, as Karen said, that's a great blend.

That's a great compromise.

Just, you know, as parents, listen, I get it, you have to have help.

But also, I still want my kid to be involved.

Yeah, for sure.

Who decides which horse your child rides?

The trainer.

The trainer.

The trainer.

I can't help, but I'd pick the pretty one.

Yeah, Yeah.

I want my kid to ride the prettiest one.

That one has the fluffiest tail.

Yeah.

I love the cute pony with the bows.

Yeah.

The unicorn.

That's the trainer.

I do think it really does depend on the experience level of the parent.

You know, I think there are some parents out there who maybe have ridden themselves that maybe would want to have a little bit more input.

But ultimately, I think it's the trainer's decision there.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And I think that's where the trust comes.

Right.

It all does go back to your trust in the trainer.

And I think this might be a recurrent theme in a couple of upcoming episodes is how do you build that relationship from just trusting when you first go to the barn to having that trainer help make really big decisions on behalf of you and your kiddo.

We go back to communication constantly.

And I think that is key in building trust.

They have to understand what your boundaries are.

If they're financial boundaries, whatever those are, they need to understand that.

And then you as a parent need to understand the business model that this trainer has.

You got to talk about goals.

You have to reevaluate goals, change goals, whatever.

If you can have open and honest communication, this is going to go a long, long way in building trust and just really kind of getting along.

Oh, yeah.

It is such a sport.

I mean, Chloe had played different sports.

Henry plays lacrosse.

And I feel like you just get so much closer to the people at the barn and the trainers than I ever have with any other coaches.

And I don't know what it is.

About that way at all.

Yeah, I didn't feel that way at all.

This is hilarious.

Karen says that she's over Here talking.

She's over here saying that.

Literally.

Have a podcast with your kids.

Ask her what she did two nights ago.

Where were you two nights ago?

I. I don't know.

You're at a bar with a current mom from the barn and a previous mom from the barn.

To be fair, those two women I knew way before my kids went to the barn.

Our kids were in preschool together and the other one taught at my kids school.

She taught Luke third grade.

He wasn't writing then, so.

Okay, Jen, but the common denominator here.

Is four of us from the barn.

Yes.

Either currently or previously.

Went out for margaritas on Wednesday night.

And she's talking about the relationship she didn't build at the barn.

Also, may I point out that you host a podcast with your child's trainer.

Yeah, that's just because I feel sorry for.

Yeah, I'm just carrying that one.

I know.

She seems to be doing so poorly.

I'm carrying this one.

But I do feel like anytime my kids are involved in any sport, there does have to be a boundary for me.

I don't want to be too familiar with that coach.

I don't.

I don't.

I don't want to because I don't want them to get to know me too good.

And I don't want to know them too good.

I have the code to your house.

I can get into your house.

That's because you needed to take a shower.

Shower when you're.

Yeah.

Your electricity was.

How many other coaches are coming and showering at your house?

My next door neighbor also came over and showered.

Not at the same time.

After he mowed his lawn.

Not that you know.

Yeah, he had the code.

Yeah, same code.

Anyway, she talked a big game.

But I love that it is true, though.

Don't you feel that way?

I don't want to be too familiar.

And here's why I say that those boundaries get blurred too much for me.

I'm more likely to let somebody start to creep, creep, creep over that line that I have set as a boundary.

That's just a me thing.

And so in my mind, I think when we're together, we're collegial.

We enjoy each other's company, and we do.

And then when we separate, we live very different lives.

We live very different lives.

Now, the women and the dads that I meet at the barn, some of them I do hang out with, some of them I haven't talked to since my kids stopped riding at that barn.

True.

Yeah, that is true.

Yeah.

So it's not Everybody.

I don't keep going.

Not everybody gets to have margaritas.

Not everybody.

Nope, they don't.

They're not on that text thread.

They're all going to hear this and be like, why wasn't I invited?

Why was I not there?

Trouble.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the bridges I burn light my way.

Yeah.

Okay, here's a question for you.

Who decides whether or not your child gets water during a lesson?

The child.

The child.

The child.

The child, then the parent.

Yep.

Okay.

Never.

Never.

The trainer.

Okay.

Obviously this is because we had the episode with David and the clip from Instagram went bananas.

And also me as like, the voice of Middle of the Road, because there were people when I posted the clip about him saying, you know, if you're on the horse, you're not drinking water.

I have seen it, though, go both ways to where parents are interrupting lessons.

Do you need your sunglasses?

Do you need your water?

Are you hungry?

Are you?

Okay, let's widen it to not be about water, because I feel like that is an overstepping.

Maybe that mean reputation is serving me well because I cannot imagine a parent interrupting one of my lessons.

Me neither.

In that way.

Have I had a parent maybe sneak in during a break where they saw an opportunity and maybe in a group lesson and bring a child of water if they'd run out or something like that, which I have no problem with.

Yeah, I do want to speak to a little bit the clip that you referenced.

And I do actually understand where he was coming from with that statement.

I hate to say it.

It can be a little annoying when they ask for water or need to stop for water very frequently, partially because it can, to me, be a little bit of a safety thing.

And David said it wasn't.

I think it is, to an extent, every time the child is taking one hand off of the reins, leaning down to a fence post, or their concentration is broken, I think that is not particularly safe.

It also, from a training standpoint, when they put their water bottle on a post or on a jump in the ring, and then the horse gets to stop there frequently for them to grab some water, it starts to want to stop there every time it goes around.

Horses are.

Or the gate.

Right.

They're being trained or untrained anytime we're riding.

So I see some issues with it in that way.

And it's just kind of annoying to be interrupted.

However, it's something that, as a trainer, you mitigate those risks.

If you need to walk over and put a hand on the horse while they're drinking.

If we need to change where the water bottles are, ask them not to leave it at the end gate, things like that.

You mitigate those risks because at the end of the day, you can't deny somebody water.

They have to be hydrated in order to perform.

I didn't get the sense that he was actually denying water.

I think it was just kind of how he sets the program up.

And for me, as a parent, if Chloe was in that type of program, I would ask the very same question I asked him, like, why is this a thing?

So that I can either choose to get behind it, which if it's a trainer, I'm sticking with, and that's their rule, then you either stay or you find another place to go.

But I think that's again, when we go back to communication, Karen, it's like we have to have this dialogue to where it's not cut and dry.

It definitely depends on the kid and it definitely depends on a million other variables.

And I think communication is at the basis of all of it.

And like the shouting on social media about it.

Go talk to the trainer that's got a rule in place.

And he did say that the kid couldn't have water unless the horse was having some water.

And I do have parents who will bring a bucket out for the horse as well, which, you know, I don't know if that would have been a workaround with his rule.

I'm not.

I didn't quite understand that.

I feel like that's also pretty disruptive.

It is, it is.

But guess what?

I don't say no to that either.

So I felt like his point, his intent was more of a discipline and focus issue.

That was the feeling that I was getting.

I felt like it was more of a being disciplined when you're on your horse and being focused when you're on your horse.

Now those two things I can get behind, that makes sense to me.

And also kids in a full training program, not five year olds, not people on a trail ride.

You know, I think the context was important too.

Yeah, certainly.

But my thing is if you're in a group lesson and you got, you know, three other people in the ring with you and you're off to the side and you want to get a sip of water, who cares?

Hopefully he's watching the people that are doing the jumping and so forth and so on.

What about deciding when the kid is mentally ready after a scary fall?

Who helps navigate that type of situation?

I actually just had this happen this week.

Not an injury or anything like that, but I had a kiddo fall off and it was a collaboration.

I asked the kid in front of the parents, are you comfortable jumping another jump?

The parents, are you comfortable with your child jumping another jump?

So we don't finish on this low point.

That seemed to work well.

And in the past that's sort of how I've handled it.

It's definitely been a very much group process where I can easily be overridden, if that makes sense.

I'm never going to push somebody out of their comfort zone in that situation because I think we all handle those feelings very differently.

Same Karen, you know, as a parent, if my kid falls off, you know, the first thing I'm thinking is, how do I know they're not injured?

I know.

You know, if someone hits their head, there's always a chance they have suffered a concussion.

I'm sorry.

Even if they don't hit their head.

And that's a real thing.

Concussion protocol is not practiced in equestrian.

Concussion protocol is practiced in any other sport but equestrian.

So if I'm at the barn and someone falls off my kid or not, I think that if you really want to be doing things the right way, somebody needs to do a quick eval and they're either going to be in concussion protocol or they're not.

If they're not and they feel good enough or motivated enough, but they're a kid, so I think there needs to be an adult probably making that ultimate decision.

And I don't think a trainer wants to take on that kind of responsibility.

Yeah, I'm never going to override anybody in that situation.

Yeah, a trainer doesn't want to do that.

If it's a parent, then that's different.

I really like what you said, Jen, that you actually ask the parent, are you comfortable with this?

I don't know that I have ever been in that moment asked, are you comfortable with her getting back up on?

Because she always has been.

But I really like that, again, it's something that as a group, you're coming to that decision.

And I do think each situation is very unique.

You don't know how people process those feelings in those situations.

In my opinion, if it were me, if it wasn't a scary fall, I need to get back on.

But that might not be the case.

For every person who decides when a kiddo is showing what type of show clothes they need.

Like, I guess what's the role that the trainer.

0%, The Internet.

The Internet decides they get to make that decision because I said that I got to make that decision.

In our podcast and people came for me that I was.

I mean, people were unhinged about that, that I was a control freak.

You're gonna make me say it again, huh?

Double down.

Jen.

Weren't that specific, were they?

I did have some brand recommendations that I felt like I knew were quality brands and I will say were in fashion and people don't like to hear that.

What are they?

My brands?

They'd have to pay me for me to say them out loud on the podcast.

Yeah.

They don't sponsor us.

Yeah.

When they sponsor us.

Okay, got it.

And not necessarily.

Not actually not expensive at all.

I wear $150 show coats.

I'm not some kind of snob.

But, you know, there are certain brands that the fit is right or the fit is what's acceptable or trendy or in style right now.

And people don't like to hear that.

But at the end of the day, it is a horse show and the way you present yourself is part of the performance.

And I know that's an unpopular opinion, but you want to walk into the ring at your highest level, right.

You don't want to have to start at a disadvantage and work your way back up.

And I think if you walk into the ring in ill fitting clothes that you don't look the part, you may be starting from a little bit of a disadvantage.

That's why I love jumpers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Great.

So I had somebody come to me this week and say they wanted to get their kiddo a new show jacket for the jumpers.

And she said, are there any colors that you prefer or is there anything that offend you?

And I was like, probably, but it's the jumpers.

I don't, I don't need to have a say in this.

Right?

Like, you can get whatever you want.

It doesn't matter if I like it or not.

In the Hunters, it is a little bit different though.

But your angle is not from an opinion.

It's a.

If you are going into the ring to compete, these are the types of clothes that are going to give you the best chance to compete.

Well, assuming the riding is exceptional as well.

If you don't care what they wear in the jumper ring, then to me, it's not that you're finicky about what they're wearing or spending.

Right.

It's, let's get you on par with who you're going to be competing against.

Which is also why I hate hunters.

But that is.

Well, and, and frankly, I think that all of the clothes are pricey.

Even the least expensive clothes are pricey.

So if you're going to spend your money on something, you might as well spend your money on the things that are going to give you the best look and are what's popular or what's on trend.

Unfortunately, in the hunters, you don't want to stand out.

They all kind of want to look the same.

Or you don't want to stand out for a negative reason, I guess is a better way to say that.

Karen, are your kiddos, they're hunters or.

Yes, they're hunters.

Yeah.

I think one might be turning into a jumper a little bit.

But they're hunters and they love that classic look.

No one ever wanted to wear the rust colored pants.

Yeah.

No run ins with that.

No, we never had any problems with that.

They always.

Yeah.

And as long as I was buying it, they wanted the bougie stuff, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course.

Our trainer once did tell us when Chloe started she just didn't want loud colors.

Like the fact that you can do whatever saddle pads you want, that's fine.

She's like, but please God, like no neon.

Like, let's try to keep it, you know, subtle in the jumper ring still, like you could wear a cool patterned shirt.

But let's not be too wild.

Yeah, I might like.

I.

It's up to you.

Whatever you want to do in the jump ring.

Now, I might not stand too close to you if it's something, you know, real bad, but yeah, it's up to you.

She's like that about me all the time.

It didn't matter what my kids were.

That's the truth.

Yeah.

He's just not standing near you.

No.

What about the type of tack that you need?

Because that also plays into the budget, you know, whether it's saddles, whether it's things you need for the horse, we relying on the trainer fully.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's really along the same lines.

Bridles especially, I think a bridle.

The hunter ring does so much for the shape of the horse's head, the overall look of the horse.

So I do think that that's something that the trainer is going to have the best handle on.

As far as saddles, I'm not a saddle fitter, so that's something that if I saw an issue with a saddle, it would have to be pretty glaring for me.

I hate to say it.

If I saw an issue with a saddle, I would make a suggestion to see a saddle fitter or make an appointment for a saddle fitter.

So to come check that.

And then as far as brands, I do have an agreement with the saddle brand, so that was usually my first suggestion, but I didn't insist that they use that brand if there were others.

Yeah, I think whatever is best for the horse when it comes to tack and equipment, you know, and that.

That's different from horse to horse.

That's what I've learned.

Okay.

So one of the questions that I had, and this I never realized any other barn handled it differently, but who signs up for the shows?

Like when you collectively decide the show schedule and what kid is doing what show?

Who does the signing up?

Like the actual entering the horse show?

Yes.

God, I feel like I'm getting set up here.

The trainer.

The trainer.

And if it's me is probably always going to be late and you're always going to pay the late fee.

And I'm sorry.

She's not sorry.

I am.

She's not.

No.

If you were sorry, you wouldn't do it.

Her lips are moving.

I'm trying to get better.

I'm trying to get better.

Yes.

I do the entries, not trying to get better.

So we have always signed up for our shows, but I now know that is not really the norm.

So tell me more about that.

Yeah, I'd love it if everybody signed up their own selves.

They could avoid the late fees.

Yeah, they could avoid the late fees.

And then I get like 400 texts that are like, you didn't put me in the under saddle on Saturday just because I.

My.

I have fat fingers and I was trying to do on my phone, you know, things like that.

Oh, yeah.

I've never been in a situation where I didn't do the entries, so I can't speak much to the ultimate.

And I've never been in a situation where I've done entries.

There's no way Karen could do her own entries.

Okay.

That.

First of all, flat out lie.

If I had to, I could do it.

Okay.

If I had to prove it when.

It's the next show.

That's how.

That's how come I pay you half the time.

She probably didn't know the horse's show name.

Now, to be fair, sometimes I don't either, but no.

Yeah.

It's not my job.

Yeah.

Okay.

I wonder if this is like a difference, so between Hunter and Jumpers, because for jumpers, it's just basically the height that you're jumping is the class.

And Hunters are so much more complicated.

We've always had to get help.

If Chloe's doing a Hunter show because I don't know what any of those mean.

I think your trainer's just smarter than the rest of us.

Yes.

Your trainer has figured out the life hack of all life hacks.

Talk about setting boundaries.

Yeah, because I spent like two hours yesterday entering, doing entries and it was like two hours of wasted time.

We've been doing rated shows this year.

Do you handle the coggins and the health certificates and all of that?

Karen doesn't know what the word coggins means.

That's not true.

I have the coggins still for four on my cell phone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I handle all that.

Wow.

Okay.

Yeah, the vet started sending it to me.

I think it's just because I pay the bill, so I have it.

Yeah.

Why do you think that is?

I mean, I guess that's actually pretty standard.

Is it more.

I don't mean control in a negative way, but.

But just to make sure it can.

Be controlled in a negative way.

Perfect.

Yeah.

I mean, well, to be fair, usually I'm shipping the horse, so that does mean that I need to be the one in possession of the health certificate in the coggins because those are things that if were I to get stopped, if I need to go through an ag station, also, like at the entrance of some horse shows, try on international places like that, you actually have to show those documents.

So for that reason, it's easier for me to get all of those from one source.

It's easier for me to handle all that with my vet and also to make sure I have those things.

Okay, fair.

Who decides when your child is ready to move up?

Whether that is height in jumping or caliber of classes, whether it's a local show versus a rated show trainer.

Again, I think sort of a collaborative effort.

I'm pretty conservative, so I'm usually not pushing people to move up unless I really feel like it's not sporting for us to be in this division anymore.

We've got to move on.

But yeah, that's a conversation that happens usually with me and the student and then depending on how involved that parent is, they're going to be a part of that conversation as well.

Do you find, because I feel like I've seen this a lot on social, that parents are pushing their kids to move up more quickly than they might be ready for.

Like, is that a pressure, Karen, that you feel like you've seen in other parents and then Jen, that they might have expressed to you?

I haven't really seen it in parents so much.

There might be some discussion, like Gosh, aren't they ready to move up?

But for me, moving up means more money on a different horse.

My son was the pusher.

He would push Jen.

He would try to think he ever really did, but he was the one that would be like, okay, I think I'm ready to go up to the three foot.

Okay, I think I'm ready to go up to three.

Three.

Okay, I think I'm ready to go.

And I'm like, good Lord, son, give it a rest.

But he was always the pusher.

So, you know, in turn, to balance his obnoxious pushing behavior, I would never say anything except do what Jen says, knowing that now I was going to have to write a bigger check for a horse that could do a bigger height.

So fun for you.

Yeah.

My concern, you know, outside of safety, but Jen is very safety conscious.

And to be fair, other trainers that we were with, I never felt like they were behind pushing one of my kids to jump a higher height to get a bigger commission on a horse that we were buying or leasing.

Yeah.

In my own bar.

No, I really don't feel that pressure from parents or from kids.

I know other trainers who are getting that push, but I don't think it may be.

It's super prevalent at sort of the middle levels and the lower levels.

I think when you start to get to the more elite levels, I think that's when you start to have some more push from the parents, push from the kids.

And I do feel like that maybe it's the more.

I don't know, this is just a guess, but maybe it's the more educated parents, the parents who have ridden who are a little bit more likely to want to push their kids on up to, like, the junior hunter ranks out of that children's hunter level.

It is a little bit more of an elite competition.

Yeah.

It's really interesting to see those dynamics, but I think, again, it comes back to communication.

Any advice that either of you could give to new moms entering the sport, whether that is where we should relinquish a little bit of control or where we should trust ourselves a little bit more to help us navigate some of.

These trainer relationships, my suggestion is go into it with a goal in mind and let that be guided in part by your child.

Right.

Have a conversation with your kid.

Hey, you want to start writing?

Well, do you want to show?

When we started, my kid didn't want to show at all.

That wasn't a goal.

I didn't care if she showed or not.

Our goals were to become More mindful, get more outdoors, unplug off of our phone, get more back into nature.

We accomplished all those.

But it's like you said, then there's a natural time where you reevaluate goals, and then those goals changed.

So my thing is, have a set of goals and be willing to be flexible and to revisit those goals.

Do it with your kid.

And in terms of finding a trainer, it's like anything.

Sometimes you gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you get a prince, right?

Yeah.

Don't be afraid.

You've gotta start somewhere.

Do a little bit of background, make your best decision you can based on the information that you have, and then don't be afraid to have to pivot when you need to.

When goals change, when kids change, when you find out more about the place that you're at and you realize it really isn't fitting the needs of you and your kid.

And it doesn't have to be personal.

That's the hardest part.

I feel like that's the biggest challenge when you leave is it feels personal and you just have to navigate it.

And everybody does something good.

You don't have to burn bridges when you leave.

They did something good for your kid.

Yeah.

You learned a lot.

Whether it's what not to do or whether it's what to do.

And take that with you when you go to the next place.

Yeah.

Jen, any final thoughts?

There is this sort of misconception that you can't ask the trainer questions because it's not the case.

The timing of those questions is really critical.

For example, when Karen came to ride with me, she was very adamant that she had a lot of questions that we needed to have these goals, which was fine.

So we had an hour of time where she could ask these questions, where her son could ask these questions.

And in that situation, of course, I'm happy to answer anything and try to give the best answer I can.

When I'm standing at the in gate getting a child ready to go to the ring, when I have a group lesson of four or five, when I'm finished at the end of the day at the horse show and trying to wrap legs, that's not the time for some of the questions.

And that's where I think this friction comes in.

So just feel free to ask questions, but try to do it in a way that gives your trainer the opportunity to give you their undivided attention and give those questions the respect that they.

Deserve, show the respect for their time.

I know in both of our trainers, I have a lot of questions.

And so it was, let's go get margaritas and we'll just run down all these questions.

And that goes a long way.

And, you know, depending on the strength of the margaritas, you can really make sure that you get an honest answer from your trainer.

If you go that route, save the.

Really dicey questions until the end.

That's exactly right.

That's my advice.

Yeah.

Well, thank you guys for coming on here.

If listeners want to follow you on Instagram, it's Scope podcast.

Right, The Scope podcast on Instagram.

And then you can find us on TikTok and we're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Yes, definitely.

Go listen to the podcast.

It's amazing.

Thanks so much.

Thank you.

That's it for this episode of Broke Horse Moms.

Thank you so much for being here with me today.

If you'd like to follow along, you can join us over on Instagram @brokehorsemoms and see some of our behind the scenes shenanigans.

And if you know another moment mom who suddenly found herself learning the horse world alongside her kid, please send this episode her way.

The more horse moms we have figuring this out together, the better.

I'll see you in the next episode.

Until then, give your rider a hug if they actually let you.

And take a deep breath.

Mama.

You're doing great.

Special thanks to our podcast editor and friend, Steve Woodward, who helps make sense of my rambling episodes and gives you the best audio experience possible.

If you're thinking about starting a podcast and want his ears on your project, check him [email protected].