Stephen Baxter lives in Tasmania, which has Tasmanian devils which sadly are nothing like the one that gave me nightmares as a little kid watching Looney Tunes cartoons on Saturday mornings.

He’s a leadership mentor who promotes a style of leadership very different from the stereotypical command-and-control style of celebrated CEOs and generals: a humble, relational, and community-centered style of leadership rooted in influence, story, and service.

Drawing from his diverse experience—as a former pastor, mentor to political leaders, and grassroots organizer—Stephen explains the power of "leading leaders" rather than followers, and how narrative, self-awareness, and collaboration shape a more human and sustainable model of leadership.

He shows us how it’s possible to lead without ego and create culture without control. These qualities can foster change in  local communities and global systems.

From church pews to parliament halls, from jazz bands to ultimate Frisbee teams, this conversation unpacks how leadership shows up in ordinary places—and why that's where it matters most.

What We Talked About

• The unique leadership ecosystem of Tasmania
• How leadership is different when people come voluntarily (vs. for a paycheck)
• The myth of the "alpha" leader and the power of facilitation
• Leadership as storytelling, not status
• Cultivating leadership in community, not in hierarchy
• How fear and unmet needs distort leadership
• The hidden leadership potential in all of us
• Tips for stepping into leadership in your family, workplace, or community

Steven Baxter, welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast.

Thank you, Howie.

It's good to be with you.

And I cope.

You cope with my Aussie accent.

I think, yeah, we, I'm sure there's, AI software that can turn it into something

that, that Americans can understand.

But yeah, there's, but there's a, there's, I think there's a fair amount

that we're gonna have to culturally translates to to make sense of you and

what you do and what you care about.

Can you just begin with a brief introduction of you

Yes.

I live in a place called Tasmania.

Most people know us from a Tasmanian devil.

From the, no years ago on the tv, what was it with the Tasmanian

Yeah.

I think I had a phobia of that.

It would, he would like.

He would go like in really fast circles and like bore underground.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

Nothing like a Tasmanian devil, but yeah.

That's so we have the tiny little animals about this big that, sadly get roadkill.

So yeah, we're right at the bottom of Australia.

So we're a little island down the bottom of Australia named after

a guy called Abel Tasman who ran into it in his ship many years ago.

And we're a population of half a million people with, we are our own

state and got our own parliament and a very regional based island

with half of it now tied up in.

National Forest and Heritage listing and a lot of things like that.

gotcha.

Gotcha.

So living in Catalonia, Spain, I have to ask, is there a

separatist movement in Tasmania?

Not really.

Not really.

I think there'd be, there's a lot of people who want to keep it a secret.

But yeah, the rest of Australia helps us by subsidizing our lifestyle.

So it's good to be part of Australia.

Gotcha, Gotcha and tell me what you do there.

I do a number of different things.

I have been a pastor of a church up till recently.

But also in my life I've done things like, I've been in publishing,

I've been in housing, social housing as well, and in training.

So I've done a lot of things over the years.

This part of my life, I'm more into, leadership development,

mentoring people, that sort of thing.

I have a relationship with a lot of our leaders across the state,

particularly our parliamentarians state parliamentarians and federal.

So yeah, in the leadership space a lot.

Yeah, so that's one of the things that I wanted to explore with you

because, it's a self-contained state.

It's an island that half a million people, and I think it's often hard to

draw a direct line between leadership.

I. And quality of life and quality.

And I think in some ways you do that, right?

You convene an annual event in which, the leaders come, the opposition

leaders, and you, and I think I'd love to hear from you as leaders develop and

as leadership is seen as an important human skill, like how that translates

into reality and not just abstraction.

Look, that's a such a good question, Howie.

Because we are small, it means that we know each other.

And I was speaking with one of our parliamentary.

Leaders this afternoon.

She said, you you can't scratch your bum without someone

else knowing what's going on.

And she's a good friend.

And so that makes leadership a really interesting journey where you know

that the implications of your decisions are going to affect other people.

And there is, a tight-knit communities means you go a bit more

with a status quo or the loudest voice or something like that.

So it's really difficult to change.

So yeah, I, I haven't got an easy answer for your question.

How are, except gentle walking with each other, learning to listen well

with each other and now it's around having a story or a narrative big

enough to encourage one another.

It's complex, I think.

Yeah.

So what, I'm, most of us who work in leadership work in organizations

and typically for-profit companies.

And there's some, and that's how we think of leadership.

That's what all, all the

books are written because that's what.

Sales,

coaching and consulting and all the other stuff.

And yet when, like when I step back, I look at organizations at for-profit

companies and they're dictatorships,

right?

They're not they're not democracies.

They're not healthy.

If someone doesn't

agree with the leader they're at some level, they're going to be kicked out.

Yep.

Yeah.

Look, it's good observation.

I've worked in not-for-profits most of my life, and the interesting thing.

And so let's say a church situation, which I explained before, let's say a

church situation, people come voluntarily.

You haven't gotta pay at the end of the day that says come along.

They come along because you've, they've got a narrative, they've

got a a story that they want to be part of, a journey that they're on.

And yeah, it's a very different form of leadership than when you've got a bit

of a stick, as you're saying, or a pay packet to encourage people to change,

I think it's a very different form of leadership where relationship narrative

is a really important part of it.

In fact, sometimes it's the only thing you've got

Yeah, so that's what I'd love to explore with you.

'cause like in the United States right now, there

is this a I'll be as kind as I can.

There, there is a sense that there has been a sense that government is broken

and what it needs is businessmen.

Yep.

And

we're seeing how that's going now.

And we're seeing the li the limits of the transferability of that model.

And I feel like the way we talk about leadership and, that it's.

The assumption is that it's gonna be Steve Jobs or, A-A-C-E-O or even a

military general are seen as the avatars of leadership, like in, not in the

nonprofit world and in the civic world.

You mentioned

story, journey invitations.

What do you see as the qualities of leadership that are truly important?

On, on a human level?

Yeah, obviously relatability is important.

Now the.

The irony, isn't it, of what's happening in America to some extent, and let's

name it, I can name it from here.

Tassie miles away from the rest of the world.

Now Trump is a businessman and works transactionally and as a boss, and yet

was able to carry a narrative that he was somehow arguing for the working man.

And got voted in on base of that, which seems an irony from that distance.

But he did find a way to capture a narrative that enough people believed

in and voted for him, whether they liked what he's doing now.

So I think the narrative thing worked.

I don't think it's necessarily it's a sad one in some ways, but it did.

It does reinforce what I'm suggesting

I see it as a narrative of grievance and exclusion.

Yeah, I think that's true, but it comes from that.

But it was also, the maga Make America Great again is

an aspirational thing as well.

So that's not just it's building off grievance and

disappointment and frustration.

But it was a positive thing to try and call people to in some.

Some sense, whether you're getting that or not, it's another, whether that's

what's happening is another question.

So I think, I think linked with that, we are a bit scared of charismatic leaders a

little bit, particularly post-Second World War and what Hitler did with Germany.

That big charismatic leader that can tell a story and draw people

together we want to be wary of it.

And yet.

We are attracted to it at the same time, so it's a we.

We just gotta learn how to do it well, and we need good leaders who can do it well.

Yeah.

Is it partly a matter of scale?

Like when you look at leaders that you work with, is it more likely that a

charismatic leader at a. Community level or a small nonprofit will be more aligned

or more sensitive to the greater good than someone who's ruling a state of millions

of people that they'll never meet.

Yeah, it's a good question.

I don't, not sure I know the answer to that one.

Howie.

I now I think of my son who played Australian Rules Football, who had a coach

who, he didn't have the best team, but he won the Grand Final because he knew

how to tell a narrative and get those.

Those 14-year-old boys working together in a football team to win a grand final.

So now there, there are people like that at a grassroots level in their

community that hold their communities together that are really critical.

I think how that translates into, a two party preferred system like

you've got in American, we have in Australia with charismatic leaders.

Ah, it it's a hard one, isn't it?

'cause gets more complex and I think that's what you're suggesting.

Yeah.

I think I'm suggesting that the models of leadership that, that householders see

are not necessarily the best ones for, and so I'm I'm, I think one of the reasons

I'm reaching out to you is to explore the leadership models that aren't bestsellers.

Yeah.

Yeah I agree because we.

We need people who are humble enough to listen to other points of view who

are not, don't have to be a, an A type gung ho person to run an organization.

The way I've been thinking about it and exploring it, how is the difference

between a leader who has a group of followers and a leader who has a group of.

Peers.

So a leader who leads leaders as opposed to a leader who leads followers.

And I think leaders who lead leaders need to operate in a very different space.

And I dunno that we talk a lot about that.

Let's talk a lot about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now one scenario is if you're a leader of followers, everyone's behind you,

and that's the John Maxwell quote.

Now, how do you know you're a leader?

Look around and see who's following you.

There is a certain level where we need people who know how to get a

group of leaders in the room who all have their own agenda, who all have

their own patch to protect, but are willing to be open and humble enough

to hear another person's point of view and collaborate for the common good.

And I'm not sure we have a lot of people, we don't foster them, as you say.

We don't hear much about them.

It's not the norm of talking about that type of leader because.

I know, I feel as if I'm talking a lot, but now our organizations are

developed, as you rightly said, with the, they're there to have the hierarchy

of the person at the top who's got the vision, who's gung-ho for it.

That's the breeding, that's what we breed for, but we're looking for a leader that

can transcend that into another place.

And yeah, we don't have lots of them.

Yeah.

And I think people don't see themselves.

So like I one of the things I'm doing these days, I'm

training coaches, and I got

a message from someone who said, I, I am, I'm a quiet person.

I'm not really a

gung-ho motivator.

How can I be a coach if I'm not a motivator, like a Tony Robbins type?

And of course I'm thinking, of course there's, that's not, that's not

what coaches do.

We're not, and I think for similarly.

Most people who are listening to this are not leaders of countries or

corporations or even organizations.

They're just, like people like you.

And we're just

out about in the world doing our thing,

and we don't necessarily think of ourselves in leadership.

Not even roles, but in leadership energy.

And yet

what you're talking about is what's accessible to everyone.

If I'm a, if I'm a leader of peers, then situationally, I'm at a, let's

say I'm at a meeting of my ultimate Frisbee team, which is, everyone just

volunteers and we're trying to figure out are we going to this tournament?

Are we gonna try to raise money, are we gonna do some kids

programs?

And I have no.

Authority.

I don't even speak the language as well as

Anyone else.

And yet there's invitations for me to take on leadership

In setting direction, in asking questions, in supporting others.

And I think

for almost all of us there is, there's leadership available to

us that we don't grasp fully or effectively because of that divide.

We don't think of ourselves as leaders.

Yeah, I think you're hitting the nail on the head, Howie.

I agree totally.

And this is where I probably do agree with Maxwell.

He talks about leadership being influenced.

So anyone who's in a group of people and influences the

decision at a level is a leader.

Whether they fit the box of what they think a leader is, they're actually

contributing to leading the group.

And I, I think if we moved from thinking of not people as leaders,

but as leadership, where is the leadership coming in this group?

Then sometimes leadership is distributed quite now across a group.

And how does a decision made?

A lot of people have influenced it, and so I think a good leader.

A leader of leaders facilitates the process so that a good decision

can be made, doesn't feel they, they have to be the one that makes

the decision, if that makes sense.

And I often thought about it with my kid and I got five kids and a wife obviously.

And now when we were going away on holidays I thought of my

leadership was things like, okay, kids we're getting in the car now.

Now's the time

now how it all happened and all the rest of it didn't matter, but someone had

to actually say, we're doing it now.

And that was my contribution to my family to get us onto a holiday.

There was so many other things that were involved in going on a holiday

that my wife picked up and I picked up.

But some people think that sometimes when you make that call, that makes

you the big leader you might have.

It's only a small part of the jigsaw really.

But somehow we've elevated that bit.

So just going back to your illustration with the Frisbee, you can facilitate

and be part of the decision making process, and no one even thought you

was a leader, but you probably helped.

So

Yeah, it seems like a, musical improv where,

Yeah.

Yeah.

you get you get the melody

for a few seconds, you do your

best with it, you pass it on, and

then you go back to playing chords.

yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's a really great way of seeing it.

And if everyone knows the rules of the game, you can make beautiful music.

It can be wonderful and be inspiring, and if you don't, then

it can actually be absolute chaos.

Yeah.

And if you're riffing based on ego, it's going to get in your way.

Okay.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that jazz analogy is a really good one.

How, and I think it's also, in that, going back to your illustration of some

of the people you mentor or coach who are not sure about their leadership,

if you are in a group of musicians and all of a sudden it's your turn.

You need to step up to the plate and riff and not leave a gap.

And so it's a good analogy isn't it, of being passed around and when

it's my bit, I contribute my bit and yeah, it would be great if we could

work out a way for that to happen, maybe a bit better in our community.

So when you, the work you do with people who trade the mantle of leadership

back and forth and what are the skills that people have to learn and practice

in order to get better at this?

Yeah.

For me, one of the main things, how is being willing to look at yourself.

The friends that your people you are talking about who say, I'm not a leader.

Part of the question I get that.

I remember for, so many years I would say I'm a good two ic.

I don't wanna be a leader.

And it, I had to come to the point in myself of saying, okay, I am a

leader because I have influence.

And so there was an inner mindset that I've had to go through in this journey.

And I think part of that, and you would find it in your coaching,

it's just helping people.

To think of it whatever way as a jazz band, whatever I've

got a contribution to make.

So I think part of my journey walking alongside others is

helping 'em to embrace that.

An example would be person I was talking to probably about five weeks ago now.

They said to me, I that they are a good two ic.

A, a good what?

two IC second in command

two.

know two I.

Yeah.

Two IC.

Yeah.

Good.

Number two, not good number one, but he's really good at backing

up and helping another person.

And I said to him, I looked him in the eye and I said, rubbish.

That's very strange.

Now that's not true, I. I don't agree with you.

And explained to him what I saw him doing, how good he is doing

different things and said I'm really gonna challenge you on that.

And the reason I can is because I've said it for too long as well.

And you, I encourage you to see yourself as a leader.

He came back to me after that and said, can you mentor me because you

were right and I need to step up.

And I think part of it is encouraging people.

That's so that's.

It's our mindset, I think is a big one.

So that's one change.

The other change is for people who are in leadership, as you were saying, who

are in a hierarchy, who enjoy the ego, the prestige may be getting to a point

in their life and their age where they realize I can't keep doing this way.

And helping them transition into a new form of leadership, which is

really about letting others rise up in leadership and not having to be.

The kingpin all the time.

Yeah.

I guess it has to do with intention, right?

Like the, if the goal you know of leadership, again, in these,

business books, is you become adored or feared or, acclaimed in some

way and your company's stock price goes up.

And I don't know many people who, after they leave the

company, maintains the legacy

That they brought in.

The fa

famously Alan Mulally at Ford turned the place around as a, many case studies

of his leadership, which I think is.

Brilliant, and you know exactly what you're talking about.

And humble and

evocative in, in many ways.

And yet when he left, everything went back

To the way it was.

So question if the goal truly is we, not me.

Yeah.

then I think you'd make different decisions and again, empower the

people around you to a much greater extent so that you become, when

you stop playing your riff, the

music continues.

that's right.

And I think.

That's part of the work that I want to do.

And I'm guessing some of yours too, Howie is finding ways to do that

because obviously we're struggling with that at the moment, and I don't now.

I think that's endemic in a whole lot of places that we haven't really

passed on that level of leader.

And I it's obviously, it seems to me my read of history, it's

something that every generation needs to learn and be passed on to.

It's not something.

We're talking about wisdom, aren't we?

Rather than knowledge.

We're talking about humility rather than hubris.

And that's my journey in that is that's learn the hard way.

You can't learn that the easy way.

You gotta have a few knocks along the way.

And I think to some extent Steve Jobs is a good example.

Now.

He had to be kicked out of his company and come back again to, for the,

for his real brilliance to shine.

I. It's not to say it wasn't there in the first place.

Yeah, there's a journey in that.

And it, I think it needs people like you and I in the conversation.

I think that's part of it.

Yeah.

And also, the question of who's in the group.

So if American politics for all its flaws, it, it was understood as

until maybe 10, 20 years ago that the leader was a leader of everybody.

I.

There was, this concept, the loyal opposition or the, that there is, yes, we

disagree and we have these tensions, and yet we're all working for the same thing.

I think we've lost that in American politics.

I think around the world

there's been this fracture, but it's come, I think it comes from the, from

or originates in the business world where we have this term stakeholders.

And we

clearly delineate who are the stakeholders and who matter and who don't.

You can have companies, and I've seen this so many times where companies have,

this amazing internal culture, and people are valued and everyone's happy at work.

Meanwhile they're extracting, chemicals from the earth and oppressing people

in other countries, and they, to me, leadership that leaves people

behind is not real leadership.

Yeah, I agree.

I was talking to a friend just a couple of days ago about in, in

Australia we have the big four banks we call 'em and and they're extracting

now me, million dollar profits, multimillion dollar profits because

they gotta do it for the stakeholders.

And I said, I was asking, so when did we get to the point where

it was more important to give the stakeholders more money?

Than reducing the interest rates on the people who are the poor

people who need it for a home.

Like there, there's something wrong in that equation.

And I think just another way of talking about what you are

talking about where we've built corporations in the stock market.

Breeds are tilting to one way rather than actually organizations

being there to serve people.

It serves the owners as the stakeholders rather than the customers.

And I don't know how we change that Howie, but boy it's needing some

significant tweaking in some ways because people can manipulate or organizations

at agreed to get what they want out of it, rather than it being a. An

organization is meant to serve people

at all levels,

Yeah.

My and my bias and my perspective is that.

You know that our human vices, by and large are based on unmet needs

that we're misinterpreting.

So when I see greed, I think fear, right?

Fear of

lack.

And I'm curious how you put fear into the.

The idea of leadership so that there are leaders who can lead

by making everybody afraid.

He said, whether, chainsaw Al Dunlop or Jack Welch,

or, like how is fear needed?

Is to what extent is it useful

and how can

you know and what can replace it?

Yeah.

I think that's really a good question, Howie, and it's part of

the reason why for me and my faith background comes in important.

Because for me, I see in the leadership of Jesus, for example, who wants to

put love at the center of it, not fear I. And in the end the authorities,

but whether they'd be military, religious or philosophical all

ganged up against him and executing because it's saying something

around, we need to do this better.

And I think he's the first person in history to suggest that we should

love our neighbor, not just our should love our enemy, not just our neighbor.

That's a pretty radical ethic into this space of how do we.

We do that.

And so I'm with you.

I think we all have, through our upbringing our sociology and our

psychology and our understanding of us as human beings would say,

we all live with some levels of deficit through our upbringing

that we're always trying to meet.

And that's why I said part of the journey for us as leaders

is to deal with our internet.

Inner motives that we inner drivers.

If we're gonna be the type of leaders that the world really needs,

which we're talking about, we've gotta deal with that stuff first.

Otherwise it comes out sideways and it's there.

Now, one person I was listening to talking about Trump we're saying,

everyone knows that a narcissist will wanna hold onto power.

So why were you surprised when he wanted to hold onto power when he got defeated?

That's.

Par for the course.

And then we've given him another go.

America's giving him another go.

You go, oh, dear it's gonna come out sideways.

So I think it calls for all of us to deal with that fear.

I've had to deal with my stuff, whether it's fear, whether it's

rejection, whether it's some sort of hurt, some sort of wound.

We're all carrying something and yeah, we've got a face up to it.

The shadow side, as Y would say, it's there.

Yeah, you, I think we can see how the, the.

The cumulative shadow of all of our shadows produces

These systems in which fear is not only amplified, but the driving factor.

So if I put myself in the head of an executive of one of the big banks,

Yep.

right?

Their alternative is to be one of the people who can't pay their mortgage,

Yeah.

right?

So it's, it seems if I'm not here, then I'm down there.

opposed to let's my life would be better if I weren't so rich, but

if I were in a society in which everyone had what they needed.

Yeah.

And I don't know how we get there.

You know how I was, I said I was talking to one of our parliamentarians

today talking about this group.

Of elites, I can say some of them in business, but some of them in

the public service on getting a good income, happy to hold onto their solo,

their silo, and not bring any change.

And they're in cahoots with each other to some extent.

And how do we break that nexus in our community?

And she didn't have any solutions.

She was saying, I don't know, but it's gotta be because it's hurting

all the poor people like Tasmania.

Yeah.

In terms of per capita, we've got more children in state care than any other

state in Australia, and we, every night there are thousands of kids that they're

putting in motel rooms because they've got nowhere to house them or to protect them.

How do we get at those big questions as a society?

And then as you're saying, we've got people who are just perpetuating high

incomes because they're scared of what would happen if they actually thought.

Let's do the right thing here.

Oh,

Yeah.

sorry.

I'm getting overwhelmed by it.

There, there's a joke that I heard.

There's a whole genre of Jewish jokes about this.

Imaginary town in eastern Europe, sort of nine, 18th century called

Helm, which is the town of fools.

And one day the rabbi wakes up in helm and he says he's been struck

by this idea how to solve poverty.

He says, the rich should give half of their wealth to the poor,

and he devotes his life

to promoting this idea.

And he goes away, travels around the world, comes back 20 years

later, and a rabbi, how's it going?

He says, I'm halfway there.

The poor have agreed to accept.

Yeah

that's right.

Yeah.

So it's, now we're talking about big questions here, aren't we?

About lead leadership and part of it, I think how we, now, I

grew up in a period of time where I saw the world incontinence,

there's North American Continent Australia and all the rest of it.

But then in the mid seventies we ended up ha having a photograph

of the world from outer space.

And so there is a sense in which we think of the world as a globe

now of one people and I think.

We ha our economic and our political systems haven't worked out.

How do we actually operate as a globe of this lonely, bluegreen

planet in the middle of this vast universe with this thing called life?

And how are we gonna make it work?

And all our structures were built when we still had countries and

continents, but now we're seeing ourselves as one and we're still

trying to work out how to do it.

I think how do we structure this so it works for everyone And

we're a long way from it, I think.

But that's, I think that's why we're having these questions 'cause

that's how we're seeing the world.

Yeah.

And I think we can, we can despair when we look at the big picture, and

I'm imagining that you, you see a lot of small, local victories even, when

you describe your family okay, I'm the one who gets everyone in the car.

That's my contribution.

I'm good at that

That can, that I mean I was, re reading a book on parenting, t

25 years too late.

But, it talks about have being responsible to your children and

not for your children, which, it struck me very powerfully.

There's I like, I think, if leadership gets.

Okay, so I'll think you, this book I read 35 years ago by a student

of Freud's Wilhelm Reich, who he

wrote he wrote the Mass Psychology of Fascism.

And his,

and he was an Austrian writing during the rise of Hitler.

And he basically, after he escaped, came to America, he said that the rise

of Hitler was inevitable because the same dynamic of patriarchal domination,

dominance was in every single family,

right?

Repression of female sexuality, like everything.

Yep.

So can we begin to make change on the individual level, the family

level, the local community level?

Yeah I think you've hit it on the head.

Is it?

It's gotta come from the grassroots up, from rather from

the head down, coming down.

Although maybe we need to start at both ends,

but yeah I think.

Now from my personal view, we've tried to deconstruct the family.

We've tried to deconstruct religion, we've tried to deconstruct a whole lot of stuff.

Now we're enamored and frustrated with our organizations and our elites, but

somehow I. It's gotta happen with every individual person who takes responsibility

for their part of leadership in making the world a little bit better.

And if everyone does a little bit, then we'll do a lot.

And I think that's where I've got hope of people doing a little bit here,

a little bit there, and rebuild it.

So it'll be interesting to see what this moment brings.

Won't it?

It is this.

Cathartic moment in world history that we're living in right at the moment.

Where, America that's held, helped hold the world together for 80

years since the second World War.

At the moment, Trump's saying we don't wanna do it anymore.

What does that mean?

But I have hope

each individual community doing something, that's where my

parliamentarian friend got to today.

She said it can only happen one community at a time.

What's what is the relative responsibility, do you think

of the haves and the have nots?

Is the solu, the problems that affect.

Some people more than others, from marginalized historically

disadvantaged communities,

The onus is often on them to solve it as opposed to the people who are

benefiting from it.

How do you see distribution of power in imbalanced power dynamics?

I go by the biblical facts and those, to those who have

been given much is required.

I think, the more you have, the more responsibility you have to do something

with it, in some ways that's Bill Gates, bill and Melinda Gates have

tried to do something with their money in philanthropic sort of activity.

And to be honest, America's better at that than Australia is.

Australia's doesn't have a philanthropic sort of attitude like America does.

So I really do think those for whom have a lot, they have a responsibility to do.

To do something for the good of, for good of all.

That's part of the reason I think I'm talking with you.

I've had a good life.

I've, I want to keep contributing back into it and try and help some, find

some solutions to some of these big questions as we go through this massive

change that we are going through Mega crisis, as some people have called it,

it's happening at so many different levels at the same time and calling

people to a better level of leadership.

So I think.

What was someone said, now we keep complaining about the elites,

and he said, but we've always had elites go back to Roman times.

There's always been elites.

So the question is not, let's not get rid of the elites.

Let's just ask the elites to do it a lot better.

I thought that was a really helpful way of looking at it.

Just call them to do it better.

It's not about them, it's about their families.

It's about the communities.

It's not about them.

So we've gotta keep the mantra.

Yeah.

Although, when I hear that, I also think about, your countryman

Tyson Yco Porta, a a professor of Aboriginal studies and, talks about

ab, indigenous systems thinking,

Yep,

yep.

That there, that for most of human history, there

really weren't elites, right?

Like you,

like we think, yeah, it goes back thousands of years to

ancient Rome or Mesopotamia or

Samaria or whatever.

But for the vast majority of human existence, there were

other forms of coming together.

And even, and it wasn't just, small hunter gatherer tribes but.

Huge.

It, it just, it feels like a CA call, an invitation.

This mega crisis, as you put it, is an invitation for us to imagine so much

more broadly than we've been willing to.

Yeah I think that's true.

I think that's, I agree with that, Howard.

I think part of us, isn't it, that we think in binary ways.

What I mean by that is, I don't think.

There's many Aboriginal people in Australia.

I don't think there's any who are saying they'd like to go back to the way it was

before white fellas came to Australia.

They'd say they'd rather live with electricity and clean water all

the time and all the rest of it.

So the organizational framework for humanity has

given us a lot of good things.

It's just not good for everything.

And we've done that.

Now the leadership of the organization takes a certain form of leadership,

but to assume that's the only form of leadership that we need is a

problem because our communities need a different form of leadership.

So part of it, I think, is getting, demystifying the organization.

It's done a lot of good things for us as a humanity, but it can't do everything.

And we just need to use organizational frameworks as a tool for what it's

good at, but not for everything else.

And and so yeah, so therefore bringing in some of the wisdom

from our indigenous cultures and civilizations is really important

for us and Australia has to do it.

We have to somehow manage that in Australia.

We're not doing a good job.

Yeah.

And I'm also referring back to you're quoting Jesus and saying, that there's

I don't think anybody started a religion thinking, okay, we're gonna

have a priestly cast and we're gonna have bureaucrats and we're gonna have,

tithes and we're gonna build like.

The religions were all initiated by people having revelatory experiences of

unity and divinity.

And then, it's like no matter how amazing your intuition is and what

you wanna teach people and the purity of it, if it catches on, it's gonna

end up being turned into a business.

Yeah.

We've got that propensity haven't we?

As human beings?

We do.

And it's even sitting there in the Bible now, there's that story.

About Jesus being on the Mount of Transfiguration.

It is.

And he has this encounter with the luminous God, whatever

your words you wanna do.

And Peter's response is, let's build some tents and contain it.

And you go no.

But it's epitomizes what exactly what you're saying.

Something wonderful happens and then we want to build systems and buildings and

whatever around it to try and contain it.

And that's exactly the wrong thing to do with it.

And Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's what's why I think there's a good pushback against re institutional

reli religion across whatever, whether it's hint Christian, whatever it

might be, when we actually put the structures around it and then monetize

it and ego gets in, the greed gets in.

It doesn't matter.

It's the organization, whether it's religion, whether it's a community, or

the golf club or the table tennis club.

Yeah, we'll do it.

We'll do the same thing and religion is not exempt from it at all.

So I'm totally with.

Yeah, maybe let's, can we close with just you giving some sort of tips, I

don't wanna say marching orders 'cause that sounds like the wrong kind of

leadership metaphor, but for folks

who are listening who are simply, involved in their communities, maybe on the school

board or in a volunteer organization or in organizations, in companies where.

They see potential to move in better directions than they're

currently going.

What are some

sort of, practices or ways of thinking or mindsets or tips that you might

have for folks to begin to flex better leadership and more effective leadership?

Yeah.

I think for me the first place I start is to find someone else

who I can talk to about it.

Build a nice gentle coalition with people who, you're not forcing any ideas,

but you have, you're able to toss the ideas around with a group of people,

like-minded people who can sharpen your ideas, help you to see where you are.

You are got a blind spot and where you're good for each other.

And I think, I just think collaboration is generative and

I generate something positive.

So my first thing is.

Try, don't do it alone.

I don't think we're ever meant to do it alone.

That's why it's good to be talking to you.

We wanna encourage each other in the little bits that we're doing.

So my first thing would be find someone else.

See if you can find someone else who not totally agrees with you,

but is traveling the same direction.

So you can be good for each other, would be the first thing.

And then the second thing is to me would be, think both of str tactically

what might you might be able to do in the short term but really

think str tactically long term.

Strategically long term.

Don't believe you've gotta do it all tomorrow and it's all gotta happen.

That, that old adage you overestimate what you can do in the short

term, but you underestimate what you can do in the long term.

What we're talking about here in changing some of these

endemic structures do take time.

And as you rightly pointed out, they can easily swing back the other way.

So I think doing it slowly and gently has got more chance for it staying long term.

So I think that would be my second thing is just give yourself a big picture of it.

Get friends and think long term strategically.

And third one, every person's got some good in them about what they want to do.

And yeah, we might have our fears, we might have a whole lot of other

stuff there, but I haven't come across a person yet who has, when

I've talked to them, doesn't want to do something good for the world,

and we just need to find that in each other and encourage that in each other.

That would be my, off the top of my head, three things.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

I think that's a great place to, to put a pin in.

Can you talk a little bit about your work, maybe a little,

a brief advertisement for who

Who should reach out to you what problem someone might be struggling

with, where you could help.

yeah.

What I love working with is leaders who may be a little bit stuck who

want to move to the next level, and what I find is that most of the time.

The answer to that is already in a person.

They just need a good thought partner or someone to walk

alongside them to ask the questions.

I don't have a big program, but I do love talking with people where

the wisdom emerges in the moment as you walk alongside each other.

And

And when you say they're

stuck, are you speaking specifically like they're at some at, two

IC and they wanna be one I

No, no more that.

It could be that could be that, but it could be that, I just get to this

point or I get overwhelmed through fear, or I know I should be doing more.

I dunno what to do.

Or they're already a leader and it says, I'm in a crisis.

I've gotta lead my this group through a crisis.

How do I lead them through a crisis?

And like you were saying that sometimes it does call for the

Commander General to go, we are going on this way guys, let's do it.

But another time it may be we need to sit all the key people around a

table and thrash this out together.

How do I have the wisdom to know which one do I lead with at this moment?

So it's that situational.

Moment of leadership of going, which way do I move now?

What do I bring to this moment to enable us to progress well, to the next point.

So it's in those spaces.

gotcha, gotcha.

And how do people find you?

Just on my website, Steven Al Baxter, not Steven Baxter, but steven al baxter.com

Okay.

And

the Stevens with a pH.

with a pa that's right, that's my mom's fault.

She like didn't want me to be called Steve.

Didn't make any difference.

People still call me Steve, but Steven Al Baxter was a pH.

That's right.

very good.

And any, anything we didn't talk about that you think would be worthwhile?

think no, we've done well, Howard, there's some great questions there, mate.

And all the best for what you are doing too over there in Barcelona.

Maybe next time I've got a daughter who lives in Spain.

Did you know that?

In Madrid.

So next time maybe I might drop down to Barcelona and say good day.

Oh, that'd be awesome.

We could

Yeah, we could take turns fixing each other's countries.

why not?

Cool.

Steven L. Baxter, thank you so much for the work you're doing.

For for sharing a perspective from another corner of the globe

Yeah,

for taking the time today.

my pleasure.