In this episode, we delve into the early history of Greek philosophy, focusing on the Milesian school. The discussion covers Thales, Anaximander, and Anaximenes, examining their metaphysical inquiries about the fundamental nature of reality. We also discuss the broader implications of their thinking, such as assumptions about the eternity of matter, the rational comprehensibility of the universe, and the capacity of the human mind to understand it. These foundational ideas are tied to later philosophical developments and contemporary thought.

00:00 Introduction to the Malaysian School of Philosophy

01:08 Thales: The First Philosopher

03:41 Anaximander and the Concept of the Boundless

09:13 Anaximenes: Air as the Fundamental Principle

15:49 Early Greek Philosophers: Common Assumptions and Analysis

19:39 Metaphysics and Ethics: The Foundational Question

20:11 Plato's Creation Story: The Demiurge

21:00 Greek Philosophy: Rational Understanding of Reality

21:55 The Assumption of Rational Reality

22:23 Illustrating Rational Assumptions

27:17 Human Mind's Capability to Understand Reality

30:15 Philosophical Presuppositions and Worldviews

31:56 The Desire for Intellectual Simplicity

36:50 Conclusion: Analyzing Ancient and Modern Thought

And we're back.

2

We're going to dive back into

the history of philosophy.

3

Cool.

4

Cool.

5

So, Who is up for today?

6

You know, I titled this one.

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I might change it before

it actually gets published.

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But for right now It's titled the

Malaysian school and the supposed

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rationality of Greek philosophy.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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I'm just doing that to draw

in all the, uh, all the clicks

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and all the views there.

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Yeah.

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I know a lot of us are

searching for Malaysia.

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Malicious malicious.

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I get people all the time, come up

to me and ask me to explain, uh,

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the ablation school philosophy.

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And yes.

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The rationale.

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Irrationality early Greek thought.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Definitely something that's

getting a lot of, searches yeah.

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We're riding that.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So malicious, I'm assuming

it's named after a guy.

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No.

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Okay.

30

It's named after a city.

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I think my latest, my latest, there it is.

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So people from there call my lesions.

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Okay.

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And it's on what would today

be the Western edge of Turkey.

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But it was a Greek colony.

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So it was a Greek speaking,

Greek thinking colony.

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and it was there the last week

we talked about a man named

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dailies lived and taught.

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And he's regarded usually

as the first philosopher, at

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least in the Western world.

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Yes.

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Yes.

43

It's all coming back now.

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All right.

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Yeah, we talked about the Elise.

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And his idea that everything

is water and some of the other

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things that he talked about.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

50

Can you give us brief overview?

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Just a little recap of

where we've been with that.

52

So, so far we've talked about.

53

Pre philosophical thought patterns

that were already in play.

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So people like dailies and the

people we'll talk about today.

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They did not make up these

ideas out of whole cloth.

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They were part of an intellectual

culture and community.

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Just like we all are.

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And so that's going to influence them.

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So the first episode we talked about.

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The irrational elements within

Greek thought, even predating the

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Olympian, religion, but carrying on

all the way through that as well.

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And especially the very, very earliest

things that we know about Greek thinking.

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Was that they viewed.

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reality is something like.

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Existing in this shapeless stream.

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a mother earth type of thing that just, it

produced these things that come to exist.

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People, plants, animals.

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But they all go back into this,

in this endless cycle, as it were.

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And we talked to in the first

episode about why that would be

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viewed as irrational rather than

a rational type of philosophy.

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And it's a continuing impact.

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Now Bally's.

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Because at that with some of that same

background, Because he's focused on

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asking the question or I, when I look

at this reality, What is the one thing?

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So he's presupposing that there is one.

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Cheap thing of which

everything else is of a part.

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And it goes back into that.

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And that one thing was water for him.

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It was.

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Yeah.

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If I remember, and I remember you

saying it wasn't as important that

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that was his answer, but the fact

that he gave an answer was significant

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because he was the first person to.

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Right down or record an answer

at least that we have record of.

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All right.

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And more particularly, because

the answer he gave was not

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based upon received tradition of

religious kind or cultural kind.

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Yeah, that's right.

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But it was the prototype.

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Of his own rational mind.

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And perhaps some degree to observation.

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I mean, Water's all around us.

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We need water to live.

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But at the same time, his

statement all is water goes far

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beyond where you could observe.

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So it's a, metaphysical claim.

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Okay.

98

Yeah.

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So we're of continuing in that

philosophical stream pun intended.

100

Yes we are.

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And today we're going to be talking about

the next two thinkers chronologically.

102

Right?

103

Right.

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So why don't you introduce

us to the next two guys?

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Okay.

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And this is where it gets

a little tricky because.

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they have very similar sounding names

and Neither name really trips off the

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tongue very easily for us at least.

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So the first one is an exa Mander

and the second one is annex

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M and S Anaximander and, and.

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. Yep.

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Okay.

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Can you spell that for people who

actually want to Google these guys?

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Sure.

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And next Amanda is spelled a N a X.

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Aye.

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M a N D E R.

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Okay.

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So INAX.

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Next.

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And then I, and Mander as it were.

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Okay.

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The emphasis is on the second symbol.

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Anaximander.

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And then, And XM minis is a N a X.

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So it starts the same way I am.

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I still have it going.

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And then E N E S.

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And X, M.

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Nice.

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Okay.

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Yeah, it's easy to get them confused.

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I mean, I've read about them for.

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a long time and it's easy to still

get them confused in my mind.

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And probably it's not that big a deal that

we keep them distinct because we're going

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to talk about them kind of holistically.

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After a minute.

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Anyway, we'll talk

about their differences.

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Now the legend is that annex seminar was.

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Uh, student of dailies.

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And then an ex I was a student of Okay.

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yes, an accent.

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Yes, it is

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now that hasn't been

proven, it's a tradition.

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But chronologically, there does seem

to be a flow daily's was a little

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bit older than these other twos.

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And so most people would group them

together and call them the, my lesion

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school because they're all leaving in

my latest around the same time period.

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And they have a good deal in common.

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Like what.

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like they lose, they're all

looking for the one thing that

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everything else was composed out.

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The RK is a Greek word there.

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The primary element.

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For dailies, the RK,

the one thing was water.

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Annex Hemmeter said, no,

that's not going to do.

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He also believed in one essence

of all things, but felt.

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It can be something physical

and finite like water.

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So he said the RK was in Greek.

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The apple wrong.

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The operand.

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What's that mean?

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it means the boundless, the infinite.

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The formless, It's infinite

both in time and space.

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But it can't be identified

with one element like water.

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So like, the cosmos Kinda yeah.

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It's a little bit unclear, but it's it.

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I think he means it more

abstractly than that as well.

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Okay.

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So the cosmos says many things.

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This is one thing underneath all that.

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Okay.

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So the physical elements and even worlds.

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Come in and out of

existence, based upon that.

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Well, it itself is unchanged.

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And I was trying to

think of a good analogy.

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I'm not sure this is a

good one, but it might be.

178

So, have you ever seen a stream maybe?

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And it's got a small waterfall to it?

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And they sit and watch the

waterfall for a little bit.

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And you notice bubbles arise on

the surface now and then yeah.

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And the bubble will rise and then.

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It will stay there for a few seconds.

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Flow down stream a little bit and

then disappear back into the stream.

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Yeah.

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From what I gather, he viewed the worlds

and the physical elements of the world.

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Something like that.

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You have this unbounded

indefinite stream as it were.

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And then all the physical elements

and even worlds come out of that for

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awhile and then just all back into it.

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Huh?

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Yeah, it seems like a neat.

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Illustration.

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Oh, thanks.

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Helpful.

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Yeah.

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And then he also had

ideas about the world.

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Now, dailies, the world was like

a disk that's floating on water

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because again, everything's water.

200

Yeah.

201

But he said no, that won't work because

then what would be holding the water out?

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Right.

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So he viewed the earth as

something like, A drum.

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And we are living on the top of that drum.

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So again, the earth would be flat.

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But it's, not resting on

anything it's equal distance

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from all other possible things.

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Therefore doesn't move because

there's no reason for it to be

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one place as opposed to another.

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Hmm.

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So he's trying to give.

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A rational explanation, not only for the

reality, but also why the world doesn't

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move as he thought it didn't anyway.

214

Hmm.

215

Yeah, that's interesting.

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Right.

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So in that regard, He's following

up on dailies, but he's also

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kind of pushing back on.

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What would regard as the most.

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Objectionable part of the dailies

that you could identify things

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with one particular element.

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But at the same time, he's in that

same stream of thought as a word

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Patty's hearkening back to a time

that shapeless strain that we talked

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about in the very first episode.

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and again, It's not a rational thing.

226

This is not directed towards a

purpose in order towards that.

227

So the idea of purposefulness

is not involved here.

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In that, in that world, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Or in reality as a whole oh yeah.

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For the most part, Greeks would

view reality as if it's guided by

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anything simply impersonal fate.

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Hmm.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And we'll come back to that idea.

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Okay.

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So that's an AXA Mander.

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Yeah.

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So, what about his,

would you call it what.

242

Apprentice or.

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Yeah, that's what he was

supposed to be called.

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Annex seventies.

245

Yeah.

246

And examinee's.

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So what about anti-Semitism?

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He agreed and disagreed

with an exa Mander.

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He agreed that the RK, that first

principle must be infinite, but disagreed

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that it could not be definitive.

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That it could not be identified

with something that we can

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experience here as it were.

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So he argued that the RK, that

overriding principle is air.

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Hmm.

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So you've got, they lose with water.

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You've got an X seventies

with air and remember.

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In the Greek thought there were

four basic elements, right?

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Earth.

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Air.

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Water fire.

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Okay.

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So you've got two of these guys

already claiming to have those

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that's the most important.

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And then Heraclitus, which we won't

get to today would say it's fire.

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Oh, yeah.

266

Huh?

267

Yeah.

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As far as I know, none of the Greek

thickers would say everything is earth.

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Because that seems less

changeable than the other things.

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that feels like matter to

me, like that feels like.

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Our perception.

272

It's like, everything is matter.

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That's like earth, I guess.

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Yeah.

275

I don't know.

276

That's a good thought.

277

I hadn't thought of that.

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Well, when you mentioned

the stream and the bubbles.

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When you say you're going

to give an illustration.

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The illustration that popped in my

mind was like, matter where it like

281

is one thing, but it comes and goes

in different forms, but I don't know.

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That's just.

283

I just my mind.

284

I don't know if that's a good.

285

Yes, you're not.

286

No, I think if it's yeah,

but anyway, so you got earth.

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Air fire and water and, annex seventies.

288

Uh, saying it's wind.

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Yes, wind or air or breath.

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Okay.

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Again, the Greek words can

often mean many things in our

292

language because we have much.

293

Fuller vocabulary as it were.

294

Okay, so that's helpful.

295

Cause I was thinking

when everything's wind.

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So is he talking like breath?

297

You think, yeah, it's actually kind of

vapor or breath may be a better idea than

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just the wind that we see outside of this.

299

But from what I can tell, he kind

of goes back and forth between what

300

we might say is breath or wind.

301

But against pneuma, basically.

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So, okay.

303

spirit.

304

Yeah, Numa, the Greek word would be that.

305

Okay.

306

Wind or breath.

307

And then also spirit.

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Hmm.

309

So he viewed also the earth as a

flat disc, but unlike the Elisa

310

said it was floating on water.

311

He said it's floating on air.

312

Like a Frisbee.

313

Huh.

314

No, he didn't actually

use the word for his beat.

315

But that's pretty good idea.

316

and we could see why he

might say everything.

317

Is air or that air is the

most fundamental principle.

318

I mean, We live only

as long as we breathe.

319

Right?

320

Yeah.

321

So my suggest to someone that airs

a principle of life or breath.

322

And many Greek philosophers,

not only here, but elsewhere.

323

I felt humans were a literal microcosm.

324

A small model of the cosmos as a whole.

325

Which is an interesting thought.

326

Yeah, I'm not sure where

necessarily that came from.

327

But you're going to see it again.

328

Can you unpack that a little bit?

329

What, what does that mean?

330

That in some way, the human

body and the human person.

331

Is a microcosm, literally small cosmos

and that what we are is analogist

332

to what the cosmos is as a whole.

333

So thinking about this as an analogy,

then we are like mostly made up of wind.

334

Yeah, I guess he would probably, I'm not

sure if he would make that point or not.

335

Huh.

336

But it just, just an interesting thought.

337

Right.

338

And also air is all around us.

339

Right?

340

And so it seems to be infinite.

341

or at least boundless.

342

Yeah.

343

So it makes it a good candidate

to say, this is the one thing.

344

but it does present a challenge.

345

How does air turn into things like water

and fire and earth and stone and so long?

346

Now.

347

They at least tried to give an answer of

how water did that a little bit, but it

348

was, it was very sketchy and insufficient.

349

. And that seventies does give

a more detailed explanation.

350

And it's related to the fact

that wind or breath can change.

351

So it can feel heavier than moisture dry.

352

It can be condensed.

353

Or it could be.

354

Thinned out rarefied air.

355

Hm.

356

No, I don't know how much he knew

this, but if you go to the top of a

357

mountain, the air is less dense, right?

358

Yeah.

359

you have rarefied here.

360

So he said that.

361

Rarefied air or thin air becomes,

362

Becomes lighter and warmer until

it eventually becomes fire.

363

Hmm.

364

. And then when it's condensed, when

it becomes compressed, as it were.

365

Then it becomes heavier and colder.

366

And becomes cloud than

water, ice stone and earth.

367

So interesting theory there.

368

Yeah.

369

I can see how he could get there.

370

Yeah.

371

if you think about it, that it

does seem like air turns into

372

water in the clouds somehow.

373

And then also fire being made up of air.

374

Like I can see how that fundamentally.

375

Works, I guess.

376

Right.

377

Yeah, little less obvious how it

becomes a stone or mud or something.

378

Right.

379

But also it works with, water too.

380

that water becomes solid or becomes gas.

381

Right.

382

Yeah, I think we talked about that last

episode when we talked about dailies.

383

Yeah.

384

Can I, it can be interesting how fire.

385

And.

386

Earth work.

387

But yeah.

388

Oh, well, again, what's a port

in here is not whether he was

389

right or not spoiler alert.

390

He was not.

391

Okay.

392

Uh, it wasn't the answers he gave.

393

But rather how he answered it.

394

It wasn't an appeal to myth or

tradition or religious dogma.

395

It was through human reasoning,

observing the world around you.

396

And make an inference is

based upon that alone.

397

So those are the most

salient points for those two.

398

So they've got dailies.

399

Everything is water.

400

The Arcon is water.

401

you've got an AXA Mander..

402

the one is this shapeless Unbound thing.

403

And then you've got annex emanates.

404

The one is the air and everything

changes into to, and out of that.

405

And that's where these guys were going.

406

So for the most part, They

were dealing with metaphysics.

407

they're not going to deal

with ethics or epistemology.

408

Yeah.

409

So the first loss was our

metaphysicians well, the,

410

epistemological claim seems to be that.

411

They're going to be trying to use their

own minds apart from what you said,

412

that's actually where we're going to.

413

Okay.

414

So they weren't necessarily

self-reflective about that, but that

415

certainly doesn't mean that their ideas

don't have bistable logical applications.

416

Right, right.

417

Yeah.

418

So, yeah, so maybe let's get

some initial analysis here.

419

We're only three philosophers into this.

420

Maybe it's too soon to give

an analysis, but at the same

421

time, It lays the groundwork for

understanding how to evaluate the

422

other philosophers who were going to

come along, down the pike as it were.

423

Yeah.

424

Makes sense.

425

So as we talked about.

426

These philosophers are not important

because of their answers, but

427

because of their questions and the

way the answer to those questions.

428

They were concerned with

metaphysics matches physics.

429

And what I mean by that, they weren't

just concerned with understanding how

430

the world works in up so that you get

a better crop or you can navigate the

431

seas better or something like that.

432

They wanted to know for

knowledge, sake alone.

433

And they want to know, not just

things of this world, but also

434

more transcended questions.

435

What is the ultimate nature of reality.

436

So that's the difference

between a physical question?

437

science, chemistry, physics,

something like that.

438

Why does this do this?

439

You know, why does this

dissolve here, but not here.

440

Those are physical questions, but they're

asking about a physical things that

441

are above and beyond that as it were.

442

And that's why their usual regard

is a first of philosophers.

443

And then second, the answers they

gave again, we've talked about this.

444

Our answers based upon human reasoning,

interacting with human observation.

445

And that is a break for the most

part, from what we've seen most of

446

the wisdom teachers of the past.

447

Uh, what they were doing.

448

So those are two things now.

449

I do want to mention though, here.

450

And this is where.

451

we're going to get some analysis

that might seem premature,

452

but, but I don't think so.

453

I think it's going to be helpful.

454

There are at least three things

that these philosophers other,

455

my lesion schools believed.

456

That they could not prove.

457

And these same things

are going to be assumed.

458

They're going to be presuppositions

for almost all the Greek philosophers.

459

Entity Most non-religious

philosophers even today.

460

Oh, okay.

461

So this is going to be very important

that they're building on this validation.

462

So it's almost like they

had this project here.

463

Of understanding the world

through human reasoning.

464

And they're the ones

starting this project.

465

They're building this foundation

other going to build upon it, but

466

let's examine this foundation first.

467

Okay.

468

Yeah.

469

What are the three?

470

Well first.

471

They assumed the eternity

of matter or the RK.

472

That first principle.

473

And exhibitor is the

possible exception to this.

474

Since it's not clear to

what degree he was say that.

475

The APA Ron, as he called it his material,

but at the same time, he is not coming

476

to the idea that it had a beginning.

477

That it was a creative thing.

478

He seemed to view it

as eternal there's no.

479

Creator created distinction.

480

Within any of this.

481

Matter of whatever kind

that you view Is eternal.

482

and the reason that's important is

because The fundamental difference here.

483

Between that and Hebrew or

Christian or Islamic thought.

484

is this, that those latter three

Arguably based upon this idea that

485

there is a fundamental distinction

between creator and creation.

486

And that you can't understand creation

without understanding also the creator Or

487

earliest understand that it is created.

488

So these men and Greek philosophy

as a whole that are going to assume.

489

That there is no creation, but that

matter, however, they're going to do fine.

490

It is eternal.

491

He didn't begin to exist.

492

Yeah, I know we've talked a lot

about that in past episodes.

493

Like that is a huge,

fundamental difference.

494

it really makes all the difference.

495

It.

496

And I hope we can sketch that out a bit.

497

Yeah.

498

Yeah, for sure.

499

I mean, it makes sense that The

question of metaphysics comes first

500

before the question of ethics.

501

Yes.

502

Because if you have a creator,

who's creating things in his image.

503

And ethics come from the

character of that created being.

504

That's a completely different foundation.

505

And you know, if your

foundation is uh, ethical.

506

I don't know.

507

What's what's the word?

508

They're not just not ethical.

509

object like water, wind.

510

Okay.

511

You see what I'm saying?

512

Sure.

513

Yeah, not purposeful.

514

Ultimate reality.

515

No purpose or no.

516

Yeah.

517

Right.

518

And really I don't think I'm overstated

when I'm saying that pretty much all Greek

519

philosophy is going to view it this way.

520

For example, Plato.

521

Well, he has an idea of

creation or a story of creation.

522

But it's fundamentally different than

the Christian or the Jewish or Islamic

523

story, because what happens there?

524

Is that some spiritual being he calls

the Demi urge takes pre-existing matter.

525

That's already eternal.

526

And then begins to form that.

527

So he doesn't create that.

528

He just fashions that it's already there.

529

So even he who has, what many

people call a creation story.

530

It's not really a creation story.

531

It's a fashioning or.

532

Uh, forming story at best.

533

So anyway, that's the first thing.

534

So first, first one is that they

all assume that, that eternity, if.

535

Matter.

536

However they define that.

537

Yes.

538

Okay, so what's the second one.

539

All right.

540

The second is that they believe.

541

Reality is able to be rationally.

542

Understood.

543

So this is kind of the epistemological.

544

Yeah.

545

Undergirding.

546

Right.

547

So they're going to assume this

and aren't going to argue it.

548

I said that they didn't argue and they

don't, but that doesn't mean they're

549

not making a pistol logical assumptions.

550

So are they intentionally trying to

not incorporate religious dogmas or.

551

Cultural myths that

they have from the time.

552

Well, it seems to, I mean, we

don't have a clear statement of

553

their intentions for the most part.

554

So read between the lines

of what they're doing.

555

They're there.

556

Strike it out on a very

different direction.

557

Okay.

558

Now.

559

It's not clear that they had any

idea of the Hebrew scriptures.

560

or the ideas of a creator.

561

Creation distinction.

562

So it's not like we can accuse them of

understanding that and rejecting that.

563

Right, right.

564

But anyway, going back to this idea.

565

They believe realities

is able to be rationally.

566

Understood.

567

If it's not, then there's no point

in anything that they're doing right.

568

So the whole premise is based

upon this idea that reality.

569

Is understandable.

570

That's rationally.

571

Understandable.

572

It conforms to the laws that

we will say are rational.

573

And.

574

Able to be understood and communicated.

575

And I was trying to think of

a good way to illustrate this.

576

So.

577

You know, Spanish pretty well, but

they use the same letters as English.

578

Right.

579

I remember when I was generally speaking.

580

Okay.

581

I remember when I was

learning Greek or Hebrew.

582

The letters are very different,

especially in Hebrew.

583

All of them are different.

584

And even to write them takes practice.

585

And so I remember many times I.

586

fill up a page or two,

just practicing writing.

587

Different letters.

588

Okay, I'm going to write

this up for awhile cam tire.

589

Ready?

590

That.

591

We were at this one.

592

Now.

593

Imagine someone.

594

From another time or place

or culture or whatever.

595

they discover one of these.

596

pages that I was writing And They

look at this and they're, they're make

597

gonna make the assumption that there

is some message here that whoever

598

wrote this is communicated to them.

599

But at that, they're

going to be an air, right.

600

Because I'm writing things, but I'm

not writing sedatives ideas, rational

601

thoughts, things that could be understood.

602

All arm writing our markings as it were.

603

Or say that you grew up.

604

In a society that had no.

605

History with written music at all.

606

So no music notation, no music theory.

607

And there's a shipwreck and on the shore.

608

a score for an instrumental music

piece comes up, you know, box fifth

609

symphony or something like that.

610

All right now, all of a sudden

you've got on this piece of

611

paper, all these markings.

612

you have to determine.

613

If those markings have a meaning or not.

614

Or could someone just be simply

be practicing markings for some

615

reason, like I would be practicing

writing down those Hebrew letters.

616

What all these thinkers are assuming.

617

They're presupposition that is unproven.

618

Is that reality Can be.

619

Understood intellectually rationally.

620

But you can't prove that.

621

You can only assume it.

622

So is the, illustration

of the musical score?

623

the people.

624

Find that, and then they just presume.

625

That somebody is trying

to communicate something.

626

Yes, the presumption or

that it could be understood.

627

in a rational way.

628

Okay.

629

, so the analogy is that.

630

The Greek thinkers look around these

guys look around and presume that it

631

can be understood in a rational way.

632

Yes.

633

Okay.

634

think of another analogy.

635

Cause none of these are perfect, you've

got a one-year-old at home, right?

636

Yeah.

637

Imagine that.

638

You leave your laptop open.

639

Peter comes up to at one day.

640

you've got your Google docs open, right.

641

And maybe it's some document that

you're sharing with me or somebody else.

642

And Peter comes up to it and

starts tapping on the keyboard.

643

Okay.

644

He's he's just barely one.

645

He doesn't understand words, languages,

letters, or anything like that.

646

All he knows is this is what daddy does.

647

He comes over here and he

presses all these buttons.

648

So he does that.

649

And then I get that because you've

already included me in the document.

650

As someone who has viewing or editing

rights and I'm like, wait a second.

651

What's Nathan trying to tell me

with this, what's it communicating?

652

So I'm making the assumption that.

653

What I've seen is able to

be rationally understood.

654

Without knowing that that's the case.

655

That's a presupposition on my behalf.

656

Okay.

657

Yeah, makes sense.

658

and that's fair.

659

I mean, we, believe that too.

660

Sure.

661

Um, We believe it as believers, because

we believe in the creator creation

662

distinction that this universe is here

as a purposeful and rational creation,

663

a rational act from a rational being.

664

Uh, mind the spirit, a person.

665

Okay.

666

But if you disregard that.

667

Then are we sure?

668

That rationality.

669

Logic, even the laws of physics apply

at all times all times past and present

670

all places within this universe or

outside of this universe, that there

671

would be an outside this universe.

672

in other words, for the most

part, we're making the assumption.

673

Reality Can be understood.

674

But we can't necessarily prove

that on the basis of simply saying,

675

well, reality is just water.

676

Or reality's just air.

677

Yeah, this is, I can definitely

see how some of our discussions

678

about naturalism or materialism.

679

built on this foundation?

680

I remember you reading a Steven

Pinker's book, quoting it and.

681

him saying the mind isn't

designed to find purpose.

682

Or make any sort of metaphysical claims.

683

And yet in that book, he was

making metaphysical claims.

684

So, he's assuming about himself

that he's able to do that, but

685

if his own mind is a product of.

686

You know, Water or.

687

Matter or wind or whatever it is.

688

You kind of have to back that claim up.

689

Yeah.

690

Yeah, you have to see if it's consistent

with the other things you're teaching.

691

Right.

692

Right.

693

So that's, really interesting to

me that they, would presume that

694

reality is able to be rationally.

695

Understood.

696

Yeah.

697

And it seems like most people do.

698

Yes, we do.

699

But that's what philosophy is for has

asked that question instead of presume it.

700

Yeah.

701

So, yeah.

702

And ask him what basis.

703

You would make that claim.

704

All right.

705

The last part kind of goes along

with this, but it's, different.

706

And in fact, I think this

is probably more important.

707

there making the assumption as many

non-religious philosophers do today.

708

That.

709

not only is reality able to be rationally.

710

Understood.

711

But the human mind is able

to understand it without aid.

712

That it is a sufficient instrument.

713

In itself.

714

To be able to actually understand.

715

what the truth about reality is.

716

And that's a different claim.

717

So one is about the nature reality.

718

The other is about the

nature of the human mind.

719

Can the human mind actually understand.

720

Anything metaphysical.

721

They all believed the human mind is

able to understand reality without aid.

722

They believe autonomous human

reasoning is a tool sufficient

723

to the job of understanding

the truth about that reality.

724

So you mean without aid as in

like without divine revelation?

725

Yes.

726

Okay.

727

That's exactly what I mean.

728

Yeah.

729

Yeah.

730

So you and I, we believe that we can

have competence that the human mind

731

can know truth because we presume

we book at the presupposition.

732

Whether we can prove it or not.

733

It's another question, but

it's consistent with this.

734

That we are created in the image and

likeness of God who is irrational beam.

735

And who created this world rationally.

736

Because it's a product of itself.

737

There is an internal

consistency with our worldview.

738

Right.

739

But if you reject that.

740

If my mind is simply water or air

or molecules in motion or Adams.

741

Or simply something else that I've

maybe I don't define necessarily.

742

But it's only the product

and natural selection alone.

743

Create a true increase by.

744

Gene's chances of surviving

to the next generation and

745

reproducing to the next generation.

746

Then can I really have competence

that it can understand?

747

truth, about things like this.

748

So they're making that, presupposition.

749

Yeah.

750

one of the ways to think about this

is, I have a pair of binoculars.

751

And there are a great

instrument for some things.

752

Like if I'm out on a sunny day and

there's a bird across the field,

753

they're pretty good for that.

754

Yeah.

755

You know what?

756

They're not good for what they're

not good for seeing in the dark.

757

Because there's simply not the right tool.

758

So there are things that I could see in

the dark if I had night vision goggles,

759

but I can't with a pair of binoculars.

760

They're not a good tool per seeing a

far-flung nebuli or something like that.

761

Right.

762

simply because they're

not powerful enough.

763

it's not that they're a bad tool,

but the tool is not sufficient

764

for those types of jobs.

765

The human mind may be a good tool.

766

To understand how to get a

better crop yield for next year.

767

Or understand how to make

a map of the coastline.

768

But it's a presumption to believe.

769

They could also understand the very

fundamental natures of reality.

770

Oh, which it itself is a part of.

771

That is a presumption.

772

That is a presupposition.

773

That you cannot approve.

774

Yeah, it's interesting that.

775

Most philosophies have

certain presumptions.

776

I think they all do like you can't,

you can't really get away from that.

777

And.

778

You can't start from.

779

You can't start XD Hilo.

780

No.

781

My opinion is that every worldview.

782

Has its presuppositions.

783

That cannot necessarily be proven.

784

what you can do.

785

To adjudicate between them.

786

Though is to look at

what the worldview is.

787

And then ask.

788

Okay.

789

Based upon its presuppositions

is the rest of it.

790

Coherent with that.

791

Because it fit in together.

792

Is it coherent with the reality we see

is itself consistent and is a livable.

793

So there are tests for

worldviews, but I believe.

794

Each one has certain presuppositions.

795

That go beyond proof as it were.

796

Yeah, it's, been really interesting

to look at the history of this

797

because you see that even this

early on, and it's really neat

798

to see the way that these guys.

799

had some fundamental ideas that

people are still building on today.

800

Yeah, I think those three ideas.

801

the matter is eternal.

802

That reality can be understood

or is understandable.

803

And third that the human mind is the

tool to be able to understand it.

804

Are still very much with us.

805

And I'm not saying they're wrong.

806

I'm just saying that once you reject

God, You cannot prove any of those.

807

And they actually seem a little bit

inconsistent in some ways with most of

808

the worldviews that arise out of the.

809

Hmm.

810

Or reject, at least the

kind of God described by.

811

Hebrew.

812

Thought yes.

813

Theism, basically Hebrew

Kris Jenner, Islamic thought.

814

Yeah.

815

I have a question.

816

one thing I'm noticing is that

all these guys are trying to boil.

817

Reality down to one thing.

818

Y just one thing, why not

two things or five things?

819

That's a good question.

820

I'm not sure.

821

I'm smart enough to have a take on that.

822

So take it with a grain of salt,

but since you asked my opinion,

823

I'll I'll give it a shot.

824

Sure.

825

Part of it is there is

within us a desire for.

826

Intellectual simplicity.

827

And boiling everything down to one thing

is maybe the ultimate expression of that.

828

also along with that,

There is this idea that.

829

There has to be something to

tie everything else together.

830

Because if there weren't,

then there would not be.

831

This coherent.

832

Cosmos as it were.

833

we might have.

834

All kinds of.

835

Elements or things that exist,

but are not tied together in this.

836

Beautiful.

837

Cosmos that, has this wonderful

principles of design and interaction.

838

Hmm.

839

And then.

840

Maybe.

841

There is a part of us.

842

that.

843

Subconsciously at least.

844

Wants to be able to say there

is one thing of ultimate value.

845

Hm.

846

Now, I don't know about that.

847

But I'm just supposing.

848

And to some people.

849

Of a philosophical bent of

mind that can be in idea.

850

So that'd be my best take at it.

851

I think that's a very good

question because you do see that.

852

Yeah.

853

I mean, even now, the, say, God, Or

it seems like there's always a desire.

854

I wonder if there's.

855

The other, subconscious thing is we want.

856

To be United.

857

Yeah, we want to be United.

858

It was, we want to be a part of

something bigger than ourselves and even.

859

Ultimately.

860

Yeah, that might be the case.

861

Huh.

862

Anyway.

863

it's just something I noticed.

864

I mean, it's like, okay, you've

got earth, wind water, and fire.

865

Like, that's pretty good.

866

why can't you just have four?

867

Why did these guys have to split hairs?

868

Because.

869

Does it seem like they

have to be in competition.

870

No, but there does seem

to be that ongoing desire.

871

I mean, Eastern thought is modernistic.

872

Believe it in one thing, usually,

one element of reality as it were,

873

and then ancient Greek, the earliest

Greek thought that we talked about.

874

I guess you would call that monistic.

875

You abused the shapeless

stream as the one thing.

876

Everything else arises out of

that and goes back into that.

877

So it has a very long

and widespread pedigree.

878

This idea of Mona's and then all is one.

879

So we broke it down into the

four worldviews of theism.

880

Pantheism polytheism and naturalism.

881

It sounds like.

882

Polytheism when you dig

down, down, down, down, down.

883

It emerges from, Monistic

thought just like pantheism does.

884

I think that's Pretty good observation.

885

And there's so many different

kinds of policy as it may be.

886

It's a broad statement, right?

887

But I think you're onto something

there, but, but naturalism

888

is also going to do it.

889

You can just say matter.

890

Ultimately, and then mass.

891

God, or which sometimes takes a form

of energy to do an interchangeable.

892

I don't think that the is, um,

would be classified as Right.

893

I also don't think though, that

it's dualistic in the, in the

894

classical sense of that term.

895

It seems almost to me to go beyond that.

896

It does believe that there

is one ultimate reality.

897

That is God.

898

But at the same time, there is

also a very real university.

899

He makes.

900

And the one it's subservient to the other.

901

So God can exist without the

physical cosmos, but not vice versa.

902

But at the same time, the fix

physical cosmos is still real.

903

It's not simply an idea.

904

It's a real thing.

905

it has a different.

906

Status in reality as it were.

907

So it's not, it's not dualism.

908

It's not.

909

Monism Kind of transcends

that distinction almost.

910

Yeah.

911

It just makes sense to me that these

guys who are just absolutely brilliant.

912

Wood.

913

Come to a monistic understanding of

reality without any divine revelation.

914

That just seems really.

915

It just, it makes sense to me.

916

Like, yeah.

917

There does have to be.

918

One thing.

919

I don't know if I'm articulating that

well, but it seems, it seems certainly.

920

Reasonable.

921

If you're trying to think

deeply about what is without

922

any sort of divine revelation.

923

Yeah.

924

There seems to be within the human mind.

925

at least for many people who

think deeply about these issues.

926

A desire to bring it all

under some idea at oneness.

927

Yeah, that is a perpetual thing.

928

And so if that's true, it's

probably from our viewpoint.

929

God given.

930

Even if the way that works

out, maybe it's not fully true.

931

Yeah.

932

Hmm.

933

Thanks for entertaining that.

934

For what it's worth.

935

That's a pretty good digression there.

936

Well, that's good.

937

Yeah.

938

thanks for this next episode about,

And acts Amanda and examinee's.

939

It's good.

940

and I appreciate your analysis of.

941

their perspective.

942

Yeah, well, thanks.

943

I appreciate that.

944

and that's what I'm going to try to do.

945

I mean, we could talk

more about each of their.

946

Individual ideas, but I'm trying to give.

947

an understanding of the main idea

there thought, especially as it

948

might impact current ideas or

things that would come along later.

949

And then Analyze that and see how it

all fits in so that we can understand

950

the present a little bit better.

951

Yeah.

952

And it, it certainly is helpful having

the background of our discussions

953

on the four worldviews because.

954

I'm sitting here making all kinds of

connections between what they're thinking.

955

And discussions that we've had

in the past about Mona ism or,

956

theism or that kind of thing.

957

Already understanding the ideas of

metaphysics and epistemology and ethics

958

and all that stuff is just really helpful.

959

It helps us look at.

960

what they're talking about

and try to see again, if it's

961

internally coherent, if it's.

962

consistent and if it's livable yeah.

963

So, yeah.

964

Well, I appreciate that.

965

Cool.

966

Well, thanks.

967

My pleasure.

968

I'll see you next time.

969

See ya.