Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode 147: How to become a sport psychologist

In this episode of the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast, Dr. Marianne Trent dives into the world of sport and exercise psychology with Dr. Dawn-Marie Armstrong, a qualified sport and exercise psychologist. Dr. Armstrong shares her journey from Barbados to becoming the first Caribbean person on the HCPC register via a BPS accredited route. They explore the field’s challenges, the impact of racism in sport, and the opportunities for aspiring psychologists in this dynamic profession.

Dr. Armstrong discusses the additional barriers faced by international students, including the high costs of visas and navigating xenophobia, sexism, and racism in the UK. She also highlights the importance of focusing on athletes’ well-being, the role of social advocacy, and how sport and exercise psychology can foster inclusivity and support marginalised communities.

Whether you’re interested in sport psychology, facing the challenges of studying abroad, or simply looking to learn more about this field, this episode is packed with valuable insights and inspiration.

The Highlights:

• 00:00 - Introduction and Overview of Sport and Exercise Psychology
• 00:39 - Host Welcome and Episode Introduction
• 02:12 - Dr. Dawn-Marie Armstrong: From Barbados to the UK
• 04:20 - The Evolving Field of Sport and Exercise Psychology
• 05:18 - Addressing Racism and Advocacy in Sport
• 06:19 - Navigating Life as a Person of Colour in the UK
• 09:46 - Becoming the First Caribbean HCPC Registered Sport Psychologist
• 10:41 - Overcoming Barriers: Xenophobia, Sexism, and Racism
• 11:18 - From Cricket to Psychology: A Journey of Change
• 16:17 - The BPS Route to Qualification
• 19:43 - Key Roles and Study Requirements in Sport Psychology
• 21:52 - Balancing Career, Academia, and Motherhood
• 28:13 - Choosing Sport over Exercise Psychology
• 31:54 - The Self-Directed Nature of Sport and Exercise Psychology Training
• 35:17 - Reflections on Qualified Life and Future Opportunities

Links:

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What is sport and exercise psychology and what additional challenges might there be for someone pursuing a professional qualification if they weren't born and raised in the uk? This is a fascinating episode where we look at the constituent parts of sport and exercise psychology, what the work involves, what the study involves, and what the career options are once qualified. I am joined by Dr. Dawn Marie Ambrose, a qualified sport and exercise psychologist who has a really interesting story to tell. I hope you find it so useful.

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. I love to be able to introduce you to have deeper dives into different psychology professional areas and sport and exercise. Psychology is one that we've not covered very often on the podcast, and I still think regardless of what area the psychology that you want to go into, there is so much to be gained by listening to different practitioners talk, hearing about their life stories. So even if sport and exercise psychology is not your passion, I think there is so much that you might find useful about today's episode. Just after we've finished recording, my expert for today, Dr. Dawn and I were discussing the process of visas and I came across looking quite naive, but I guess we have to know that we can't always know what we haven't experienced and every day is a school day.

What I hadn't realised is actually it's really quite expensive to get visas to work and study in the uk and we're often talking about multiple thousands of pounds. And so that is something I hadn't been aware of. Did you know, do come and let me know over on socials come and join the free Facebook group, the Aspiring Psychologist Community with Dr. Marianne Trent, which is the only home of my free weekly videos, Marianne's Motivation and Mindset, which happens on a Friday morning. So do come and dive in over there. With no further ado, let's meet Dr. Dawn and I hope you find this a really useful episode and I'll look forward to catching up with you on the other side. Hi, I just want to welcome along Dr. Dawn Marie Armstrong, who is a sport and exercise psychologist. Hi Dawn.

Hi. Thank you for the invite today, Marianne, how are you?

Oh, thank you for saying yes. I know it's taken us a little while to sort out a date, we're both busy people, but I really wanted to have a think with you about you obviously, but also what sport and exercise psychology is and how people can begin to explore that as a career option. So firstly, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Alright, so yeah, I'm Dawn. So for me, I think my journey into the field as a practitioner, presently being transnational. So I am not British. I am here working as a professional through what would be the international study wrote. I wrote my master's here, then I completed my doctorate here and as a result of that, I have been able to capitalise on the opportunities as a skilled worker from the beautiful Caribbean island of Barbados. So I'm presently the first from the Caribbean to be on the HCPC register from a BPS accredited doctoral route. And it was not easy undertaken. I think for me when I consider the field of sport and exercise psychology and where my passion came. So my views on what it was when I first started has changed, obviously now being in the uk, practising working. And I definitely feel now that the field has evolved to a point where not only do we as professionals focus on the optimization of athletes' potential, we support their wellbeing, we support performance predominantly, and it all depends on the philosophical underpinnings of the practitioner.

Speaking to myself more specifically, I've diversified my practise not just to focus on the performance benefits, but to actually utilise my voice as a means of social advocacy within the field. So focusing a lot on equality, diversity and inclusion and supporting athletes who are struggling with issues like racism within sport discrimination and really focusing my lens on marginalised communities within sport. So I would say typically yes, working with athletes to optimise potential, but definitely recognising that in order to optimise the potential of the performer we first have to focus on them as a human being. And looking at some of the challenges that people face. It is sometimes difficult to focus on performance only. So yeah, wellbeing and performance, but definitely focusing on those issues that impact us as individuals as well. And unfortunately, racism happens to be one of them.

Yeah, absolutely. And that was something that I discussed with Daniel Jinadu who is a professional football player and he's also got a first class degree in psychology and he's kind of heading towards the hopefully sport and exercise. But I asked him about racism in football and he actually said that it's not really something that he's come up against, which kind of made me feel excited for the change really. And it's something I see with my children, they just don't seem to see skin colour in the way that I think certainly many of us did when we were younger. I dunno what your experience is of, I mean you weren't raised in the uk, but how is that for you as a person of colour but also supporting people of colour and probably people who are not people of colour, how's that from your perspective?

I think for me, coming from a country where I was not a minority, I definitely feel I do have very much a larger life personality. And I think that's not something that's changed while being in the uk. I think having your skin colour politicised is something that I think over the years of being here, tick a box to say, oh, you're black Caribbean equality and diversity monitoring and all of these other things that you definitely find in Barbados. It's a bit like, okay, well 95% of us are black anyway. I definitely feel that some people, and it was interesting because I had someone say to me that they just don't understand the issues that some people face. And interestingly enough, if people tell you that they're not experiencing racism, chances are is that they really just don't have the capacity to deal with it. And oftentimes people overlook some of the things that may happen within their environment, see small microaggressions, because if you dwell on them and you ruminate, then it has more of a detrimental impact to your performance.

And this isn't just within sport, this is in general that some people just choose to overlook some of the things that are happening, whereas some people do the exact opposite. So you and I would both know considering psychological evaluation and intake and assessment, it's that individualised approach to the support that you provide. So if an individual definitely says, this isn't happened to me, it's not up to you to say, well, it is happening. If that individual believes that this isn't happening and it's not a thing, then we just have to accept that for some people, experiences are different. Unfortunately for some of the people that I engage with it and I focus more on that person-centered approach because if we are not valuing people as individuals, sport for example, and I go on and on and on because of the idealistic nature of it, oh, we don't see colour, everyone is united, there's no racism in sport, but people are suffering in the background, unwilling to speak up because they don't want to be victimised and they don't want some of the backlash that comes from speaking about issues like racism. So that's why I've taken it as a responsibility to speak up, whether or not people believe you're making an issue of something that's not an issue. Believe it or not, it's an issue for many and people just don't want to talk about it. So yeah, to answer your question, it has been interesting but grateful to have the upbringing that I've had because my identity is more than secure when it comes to dealing with these issues and I think less of critical importance.

Thank you for speaking to that point, and I was really struck by what you said in Barbados actually, 95% of people are black. And so it is that very much experience of now perhaps feeling othered being in the UK even though it's not 95% of people that are white here. There's loads more multicultural aspects, but very different that feeling of being different or feeling different when actually you are still the same person, but you are in a different setting. But I'm torn between congratulating you for being the first, I think, what did you say? The first person from the Caribbean who is an HCPC

Registered Sport psych? Yeah, the BPS route.

So it's sport

And psychology. Yeah. So I'm torn

Congratulating you, but also, I dunno, a bit dismayed that it's 2024 and you have to be number one.

Yeah, yeah. The expense, the investment, again, leaving the Caribbean and being faced with the very real, I'd say xenophobia, sometimes there's a bit of sexism, there is racism within the fields and having to adjust to that from 2018 until present. Sometimes I don't even know how I got to the end because in reality you're just faced with barriers at every turn. But yeah, God is good here I am. And definitely opening doors for persons who wish to follow.

Yeah, once you can see it, you can be it, can't you? And so I know there will be lots of people out there who are growing up possibly listening to this podcast. We have people who are doing their A levels or GCSEs sometimes or undergrad that are like, oh, right, yeah. Oh, okay. Definitely. Yeah. So yes, thank you for your perseverance and was it your experience, I know you have been a keen cricket player throughout your life. Was it your experiences in cricket that turned you on or made you aware of sport and exercise psychology?

Yeah, I think this is something that we spoke about before we started it was that element of being a female cricketer and exploring the fact that maybe our version of the sport wasn't going to be as rewarding as the men's virgin and deciding, I want a degree. I already had my bachelor's degree by the time I represented my country. So I've played for Barbados, I played for the West Indies, a team back in 2011 before I started my master's. And yes, I did get a scholarship in terms of starting the master's and completing it and just recognising that it was natural to go into sport psychology. Interestingly enough, I would've thanked the person that steered me along the rope because I was kind battling between sport and criminology. Well, criminology primarily. And some person was like, no, Don Sports psychology. And I was like, oh, I came to England for my first season as an overseas and just started exploring postgraduate degrees in sports psychology.

This was around 2010 and yeah, 2011, that's when I started. And I definitely feel like I was thinking more about perhaps the long-term, not wanting to particularly retire from cricket too early, but seeing how my postgraduate qualification could be incorporated into supporting persons like myself. But equally on the masters, there was so much teaching, sorry, that was applicable to me as a performer that I think I just learned and grew throughout the course of study. So yeah, female crickets are really, really bright prospects as at the time I was a fast bowler, one of the fastest, if not the fastest in the Caribbean, and I just thought it's not working out in terms of I guess making a career out of cricket. Obviously that's changed, but I'm happy that I chose the professional route and I definitely feel that this will be more rewarding for me in the end.

And I think it futureproofs you as well because in any sport, people are going to age out of a system where they're playing it themselves and where they then either sit on the sidelines and wish they were doing it or you coach and support the next generation. But that sounds like a decision that you made. It sounds like you're one of the fastest bowlers in the Caribbean, which is amazing. But is that something that you stepped back from or is it that you were like, well, I'm doing this instead?

Honestly, it's interesting because when I came up to the UK I was based in Scotland and I did play a season in 2018, so technically I'd say my last season was 2018. But obviously recognising the climate differences, I think in terms of playing and then thinking how cold I used to be sometimes that they started the season, I just started to question whether or not it was something that I wanted to do again because of these studies and the commitment that would've come from wanting to have a cricket career. I think in the UK it just wasn't going to work in line with the visa number one and number two, I just did not have the time and the commitment to do it. So yeah, I'd say I kind of stepped to where I look back now and think, did I really want to, in the sense that did I not challenge myself enough to give it a real goal recognising that ageism is a big thing in the sport as well.

And I was think I was early thirties and there were younger girls coming up through the setup and different things. So no, I think, no, I'm definitely glad I made the decision at the time. I was always very much, oh, the cricket bag is still there, go and turn over your hand. And I did that while I was in Liverpool in 2022, and they wanted me to play an entire season, so I was just like, you still got it, but you just don't have the time to commit to it. So I think I've just got the bag there and you never know, but it's definitely not wanting to be a cricketer anymore. Okay.

And oh gosh, that must've been quite the adjustment going from Barbados to Scotland, I think I would struggle from going from Coventry to Scotland, so that must've been wild.

Definitely. Oh, let's not chat about how cold it was. Oh my goodness. Yes,

Indeed. So you mentioned the BPS route for sport and exercise psychologists. Could you tell us a little bit more about what that is and how that plays out, what that looks like for people?

Yeah, so there are two routes towards qualification in sport and exercise psychology. There's the independent route. So this would be QCEP stage two. Usually what you would do, or at least I'm going to say back in my day, obviously I wrote the Masters over a decade ago, you had to have something called GBR Graduate Basis for Registration, which was formally known as GBC graduate basis for chartership. And essentially I had to get my degree from Barbados accredited in order to get the G-B-C-/G-B-R to write the master's. And the master's was stage one. And because you've got the master's as BPS accredited, then you are able to enrol onto A BPS stage two. However, because I was an international student, I was not able to write the independent stage two because CBPS presently doesn't provide sponsorship for international students to stay and continue. So as a result of completed the master's, I did receive a PhD scholarship at the time.

However, due to it's a bit of wanting to stay knowing that I should have stayed and written the PhD, but feeling as if I had a commitment to stay home based on the opportunities that were provided through the different scholarships that I would've received. And I went back to Barbados and it was just difficult to qualify because the BPS does not allow you to qualify remotely. You have to spend 51% of your time in the uk. And because practitioners who have difficulty securing employment, it wasn't possible to come back. However, the prof doc route was introduced, which then would allow me to return to the UK as an international student. And in writing the professional doctorate, which is another qualification in line with the qep, I was able to then return as an international doctoral trainee and complete in that respect, obviously more expensive than if I were able to write the independent qep. But I think in the end, very much more rewarding in terms of developing my skills and my experiences academic in other ways. Yeah.

Okay. So

I actually received a government scholarship. So I received a scholarship from the government of Barbados, again, because sports psychology was seen as an emerging field. So it was called a national development scholarship. And my tuition was paid by the government, a stipend provided within the first year. But mainly when I look back at the length of time it would've taken to complete. I almost spent triple that. So I would say, yeah, technically self-funded, getting to the end, but really, yeah, I think had not for the scholarship from the government of my country, I think the opportunity to return may have been a lot more difficult given that I would've previously written a degree as well.

Yeah,

Okay. Yeah, the master's was definitely self-funded.

Right. And what does the actual study involve? So are you having to work with a certain number of people in different sports? Are you having to do presentations and essays and exams? Tell us a little bit about the nuts and bolts of it, if you will.

Yes. So the doctorate is mapped onto four key roles, key role, one being CPD and ethics, key role two being consultancy. So this is where you do the bulk of your client work. Key role three being predominantly research and key four being dissemination and teaching and dissemination. So essentially what you have to do is evidence over the course of your enrollment that you are engaging with field specific CPD. So this will be conference attendances, your undertaking your certificates to evidence your practise. So I would've done a CBT course, an REBT course. I actually embarked on mental health first aid as well. I just thought it was something very useful, given the fact that I do predominantly work within youth sport and being able to support young people in that regard who may be faced with crises at the point in time. I thought it was a valuable qualification to have.

So yeah, attended the BPS conferences, attended different workshops, and what I did find is that when it came to Key Road too, a lot of these CPD events and these qualifications that I obtain as a result of this did definitely inform my practise. So some of the case studies that I have undertaken well on the doctorate, one is already published and another has been recommended for publication. So you'll see that hopefully in a few weeks time. I'm hoping not a few months, few weeks. But yeah, so the research, I have my systematic review published. I am in the process of structuring or restructuring the independent submissions. These will be the empirical papers, a again for publication. So I'm hoping to see the majority of my work published within the next 12 months. And teaching and dissemination. I worked at a university in Scotland throughout the latter stages of the doctorate, and then I utilised the workshops that I delivered while in my job, while I was on the doctorate.

I've said that four times in my job. I have done that. So the teach in the workshops, everything that I did, educating persons on sports specific psychological principles went into key role four as well. So it was really exciting looking at the development and looking at my reflections and meta reflecting about my development over the four years. It was supposed to be two, but in terms of the pandemic, and I also had my daughter during that time, so I became a mom. Yeah, my daughter was born in 2020. So yeah, it wasn't clear cut for me, but definitely rewarding in the end.

Oh, well, welcome belatedly to the Mummy Club, the most stressful, hopefully rewarding club you'll ever be part of. Yeah. Is she interested in cricket? Has she picked up a cricket bat yet?

She's three. She is very, she swims. I actually don't plan to sample sports just yet. I'm waiting for her to say, mommy, I'm interested in something. But she is very, what's the word, verbally advanced at three and a half. The conversations that she has with me is just about she wants to study and get A's. So it's interesting. If she isn't sporty, I don't think I'd be the least bit bothered. I just want her to be whoever she is. And I think that's the most important thing. I was mothered in that way and my mother allowed me to be whoever she knew I was going to become. So I think I had to play those same principles to my daughter

And I speaking as a woman, I feel like sport wasn't ever really

Offered to me. So there was stuff that was happening in school that was compulsory, but I probably wasn't very good at everything. And my Mum, I remember her playing badminton in the garden and her not wanting to play with me. I wasn't very good, and it's like not very nice. She would play with my brother. And I just very quickly got messages that I wasn't very sporty and I didn't pursue anything. But actually what I've learned since probably becoming, so I'm now 42, I'm going to be 43 in a couple of weeks time, but what the pandemic taught me is actually you don't necessarily have to love the sport while you're doing it to feel the benefits of it. So I started, like many of us, I started to put on a bit of weight during the pandemic when I was sitting on my bum more and I started to run and I'm still running now.

I'm not very good at it, but that doesn't matter either. I really enjoy it after I've finished it and my body, my mind responds really well to it. And I have wanted, I've, I've got two children, 10-year-old and a 7-year-old. I really wanted to sport and exercise more on the map than it had been for me so that it's an option. And so we've actually joined a gym as a family in the last week, and today we're going off to do paddle for the first time, which is a little bit like badminton, a little bit like tennis. I think it's somewhere between the two. And it's like, I've never done that and I'm almost 43. And they're getting to hopefully experience sport in a way that feels fun, feels exciting, and I just hope that they can then make more mindful choices about sports. So I've actually got into strength training in the last two years and I love it. And that's not something that I ever would've thought I would love, and I just want people to be more mindful about them and exercise and benefits it might bring for them.

So another, and I probably should have alluded to this earlier, so you are introduced to exercise psychology in your postgraduate study. And as you get onto the roads for qualification, you do have a choice to decide whether you want to specialise in exercise psychology as well. So there are practitioners because of the HCPC accredited title of sport and exercise psychologists, there are practitioners who are sport and exercise psychologists who predominantly specialise in exercise. So I think for me, when I engage with clients who are interested in the psychological principles of exercise, I utilise my experience as a sports psychologist predominantly to use principles to assist persons who are interested in exercising. But I don't particularly tell people that I am an exercise psychologist, whereas some of the exercise psychologists that I know predominantly work in fitness settings, for example, and assisting clients who are somewhat sedentary by applying the principles of behaviour change and allowing them to feel empowered as a result of utilising exercise to enhance be it wellbeing.

Obviously in most instances, I think a lot of professionals who specialise in exercise psychology find themselves on exercise referral schemes. So providing that support for persons who again, may be struggling to have an active lifestyle and showing them the benefits that can come as a result of that. So a lot of persons who have been diagnosed with health issues, for example, who have to exercise psychologists are there to support them along those routes. There are programmes, for example, for people who are struggling with weight and they have psychologists to support persons to put interventions in place to support people in that regard. So yeah, there is tremendous scope for both sport and exercise. But as a practitioner and discussing my sporting history, we've come to recognise that I am definitely a sports psychologist.

That's really, and

I have no regret.

Yeah, that's really interesting to split the two parts of that qualification that actually you're qualified in both, but your professional interest is more in the sport and the professional sport player.

Yeah, definitely professional sport player, yes. But working in elite youth sport, I actually quite find more enjoyment working along the pathways. So I know there are people that find enjoyment in the glory of sport. Yes, I've engaged with professional athletes in the past, but I find there's more joy developing the athlete at the early stages. So sport is actually my preference, but because of the specialism with the EDI and investigating the racism, you definitely do engage with more professional athletes in that regard.

Yeah. Thank you. I feel like my mindset has just pivoted from thinking of sport and exercise as something to dread, as something to relish. And that's the difference. And I do wonder whether had I had more opportunities, so in the Olympics London 2012, it's a bit of a running joke in my family that I was watching the pole vaults and I was like, oh, I've never done that. This could have been my sport. I could have been an amazing pole vaulter. And they were like, I think you probably wouldn't have been. But I was like, but how do we know if we're not giving people a chance to try these things out? How do we know?

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. To be fair, and it kind of brings me back to the sentiment that you shared about allowing your children the opportunity to engage with sport very early on. I definitely do feel that even if they don't become professional athletes, it's the character and the character building that comes as a result of participating in sports and team sports, especially learning those early principles of teamwork and respect and understanding that persons have differences, different levels of abilities, and acknowledging that there is a role that you play within the team and taking that outside of sport and looking at life in general and your role in society and who you are and how you can make a contribution to not just society, but to another person and to the people that you interact with. I definitely feel that the skills are transferable, and I do feel that a lot of the principles from sport can be applied to youth, developed my guess, but young people's life skills development very early on. But that'll take me down another tangent about the impact that the field can potentially have in terms of academia and in terms of primary education, secondary education. But yeah, I'm just very passionate about everything that we can do as a field.

Good. I'm really pleased to hear that. And you're fighting that corner and that narrative, which is really important. It sounds like reading between the lines, there's still much more self-direction for trainees sport and exercise psychologists than there is for clinical. I know for counselling psychologists, they have to find their own placements and negotiate all these placement hours, whereas for clinical, it's very much more you get told which placement you're going to and there's placement supervisor to make sure you're getting your hours and to mediate. Am I right in thinking that sport and exercise is still a bit more?

Yeah, so for me, in my experience of it, and I think in reflection, this is why I love the professional doctorate wrote, you are supervised by a BPS accredited supervisor. Usually the programme leader is that person, but the school, so there are only three professional doctorates across the uk. Usually the staff that are employed also have their supervisory accreditation. So you are allowed to shape the way that you want your training to go. And that was one of my first submissions, mark submissions on the professional doctorate. So we had to write up a plan of training where we projected exactly what we wanted to do to show how we intend to get to the end. And having successfully passed that, then you undertake your work and you actually meet with your supervisor to ensure that you are engaging in the opportunities that would allow you to kind of develop and grow.

But equally because I engaged in youth sport and I worked in youth sport professionally in the Caribbean, those were the opportunities I sought to when I came to the uk. So when I worked within Premier League football, for example, I recognised, okay, well this is my strength and I was allowed to capitalise on that. And again, confidently I speak about the work that I do at the youth level because I've just been allowed to specialise in that regard. So I do find that that's a real benefit in being able to choose and kind of follow your passion in that regard, because then you could also use those CPD opportunities beyond qualification to further develop as well. But yeah, thus I think it's very much specific. So by the end of it, you are supposed to come with a certain level of expertise in a specific area.

And I could definitely say no, that is youth sport. And no, definitely focusing that this aspect of my professional development on the social advocacy. So there are different branches of my practise that I feel are definitely warranted at this time. So you won't see me speaking a lot about the youth sport because I definitely find when clients get in touch, when parents get in touch, that's a no brainer for me because I've done all the work in that regard when it comes to the social advocacy and sharing on LinkedIn and speaking up and speaking out and presenting publicly and delivering at my job. It's definitely specific towards the cultural competence in that regard.

Thank you. Is there a cohort that you are all doing at the same sort of time, same sort of goalpost?

Yeah, definitely. There were seven on my cohort, so the intake is seven per year at my alma mater. I can't speak to others, but you definitely do have a cohort of trainees that you work with, and it's very good to have the community to share those experiences with as well.

Yeah, I definitely agree. It can be so validating content of the experiences, but also motivating to be part of that kind of group. And how about qualified life? Are you self-employed?

I am, well, don't let me say self-employed per se. I work at a university, I would say, well, world renowned, it's the best university for sport. But I do consult again because of the limitations to the visa. I consult 20 per week and definitely the research and the work that I'm undertaking in my academic job is continuing to fuel the evidence base for the work that I do in my practise. So we're at the lovely intersection where a passion and a profession meets, and I'm really excited for the next few months. We've got some things in the works. Yeah, so I'm presently based at Luper University and utilising the space, it is a fantastic space to be in at this time and exciting space for EDI in line with the university strategy. And I'm definitely having the opportunity to put forward my research, develop and build. So I am definitely reflecting a lot more on the professional doctorate and just how it's brought me this far.

Amazing. And ultimately, would you hope to get indefinite leave to remain?

Honestly, I haven't thought that far ahead. Mainly because again, because of everything we highlighted earlier, home is always home and I see every opportunity for what it is. And yeah, no, I haven't thought that far ahead. I'm contracted at the university, so I'll be very open about that. So there will be a time where my tenure will come to an end, and when that comes to an end, then a new journey will begin. Whether it be in the UK or abroad, I can't say, but I'm definitely not the person to decide where I'd want to be.

Where was I going to thank you so much. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. The world is your oyster as we say. And is your qualification recognised internationally? So it's a UK qualification, but can you take that and run with it?

Most definitely Sandos a proficiency, particularly with respect to the BPS and basis. So there is another route to qualification, sorry, you can end that as well. The qualifications are recognised all over the world. So truthfully, let's say for example, I decided I want to work in Australia, there are certain things that you'd have to do to adapt. They kind of investigate the learning that you undertook, and yeah, you will have to do some training in line with their actual framework, but essentially it is possible to just adjust and adapt to gain accreditation wherever you decide to travel. So yeah, the UK qualification definitely holds some weight when we consider transnationalism and working abroad. One thing that I think has been quite astounding for me, again, being in academia, coming from an international route as I would've shared with you, is the relatedness. I find, especially when I deliver to international students and when people see me taking up this space and knowing that I've done this from an international route, most people just want to know how I've gotten it done.

And being able to engage with students in particular, to share with them, okay, well this is where I started and this is where you could potentially be. Being that person that they could see themselves in, I think to some extent, and recognising that there is an end goal and sharing the story to allow them to feel as if it will come to an end does help a lot. And I feel really pleased to be able to support students in that regard, not just at my institution, but wherever. And I think with the international student crisis, particularly with students looking towards the UK, for example, to explore their prospects, having more professionals like myself who will actually motivate them to come to the UK and to stay in the UK, I think is quite important at this point in time. International students invest a lot and I don't think people understand the amount of investment that goes into not just financial, but emotional investment to adapt into a different country, a different culture, different climates. So I'm glad to be here to help support students in that respect and we'll see how it continues.

Thank you. That's been really, really interesting discussions that we've had, but also thinking about your reflections on that has been really lovely to hear, actually. Thank you for your time. Yeah, thank you. If there's a small piece of advice for helping people not burn out in this field of psychology, what would yours be?

Mine would be self-care. And it's interesting because I'll be presenting at an upcoming congress in the summer, and I've been invited to present about self-care from an ethnic diverse perspective as I was told. And self-care is of utmost importance and understanding what that looks like culturally is equally important. And we talk about supporting people individually, but we as practitioners sometimes do not consider our own self-care as much as we should. I would tell any upcoming professional, even undergrad, begin to consider the strategies that work for you, especially when you consider the level of commitment that goes into any form of study, any form of training. So I can't to self-care enough.

Absolutely. So very important, and we need to be able to look after ourselves first, put that gas mask on ourselves first before we can help anybody else, don't we?

Most definitely.

Thank you so much for your time. If people want to follow you or get in contact, where's the best place for them to do that?

AfroSportPsych That's on Instagram. That's on Twitter. Or you can just connect with me on LinkedIn, Dr Dawn-Marie Armstrong, and that's where you'll find me.

Lovely. I will make sure all of those bits are on screen for people watching on YouTube, and they'll be in the show notes for people that listen on mp3. Thank you so much for your time. It's been really lovely getting to know you and wishing you well with your publications and what comes from future.

Yes. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much and all the best to you as well.

Thank you. Thank you so much to my guest for today, Dr. Dawn Marie Ambrose. Please do go and connect with her on socials. She's just a joy to speak with and I hope that my path crosses with her further in future. Has this evoked any thoughts, feelings, ponderings for you? Do come and let me know on my socials, I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere, and do bear in mind the free Facebook group, the Aspiring Psychologist Community with Dr. Marianne Trent. Also come and grab your free psychology success guide, which is Getting wonderful reviews. Head to www.goodthinkingpsychology.co uk, and then look at the free resources tab. It is called the Free DCI Guide, but it is relevant for all areas of, so grab your copy. Please do take a moment to rate and review this podcast if you are an Apple Podcast fan, if you're on Spotify, please do rate the episodes. Please follow the show and subscribe if you're on YouTube. Thank you so much for being part of my world. If you have any ideas for future podcast episodes, please don't be a stranger. Come and connect with me, Dr. Marianne Trent, it's a pleasure to be part of your world. Thank you for trusting me to help you in your journey. Do bear in mind the Aspiring Psychologist membership, if it's your time and you are ready for the next step. Thank you again. Take

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