This week on Should I Care? we (Sophie Griffiths & Ruthie Walmsley) get into growing your audience, & why some ways of doing it get a round of applause while others get called a bit thirsty.

On paper it's simple. You buy an audience, you borrow someone else's or you build your own. In real life most of us end up doing a little bit of everything & none of it particularly well, with half an eye on whether it'll look a bit desperate. Nobody expects to be paid for going on a podcast, so what about a workshop inside someone's membership, & are you allowed to pitch at the end of it? And with the backlash doing the rounds about people paying 25K to speak on a stage (we've only caught it second-hand, so this isn't a verdict on the event), is that really so different to paying for ads?

Ruthie's launch closed the day before we recorded, Bloody Good Story Club doesn't open again until April & she needs more people in her world before then, even though a bigger audience scares her a bit (she still removes Instagram followers who don't look like her ideal client). Sophie has tried most of the options, paying to be on a stage included, & has opinions on which order to do them in.

In this episode:

• The 6-month speaking mastermind Sophie joined to get herself on a stage & what she decided about stages afterwards
• The membership with 500 people in it, the guest workshop, & the 3 who turned up to the call
• The 3 sets of people in the room at any event, the 2 when you run an ad, & Ruthie's take on which of them ends up losing out
• The book Ruthie keeps thinking she should write, the stages Sophie still gets a pang about, & the question we both had to ask ourselves about why
• The £500,000 Sophie's business has made since the start of 2025, the goal she's set for next year, & the 1 thing she's adding to get there that isn't more ads or more launches

New episodes every Tuesday.

Follow Sophie: @sophiegriffithsco & Ruthie: @firstpersonnarrative

When you're ready, here's the next step:

Outrageous – for established women coaches and service providers who want one offer designed to hit 6 figures without them being the engine of every sale. [Find out more]

Ruthie's Bloody Good Story Club Waitlist: https://ruthiefpn.myflodesk.com/wait2

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Should I Care?

with me, Sophie Griffiths

And me, Ruthie Walmsley.

How are you?

Hello, my love.

Coming to you with a fat lip.

I got headbutted by my dog this morning.

Was trying to be good.

we're recording on October the

Yeah

I thought, new month.

I've been giving myself a bit of an out clause for regular exercise and have

felt shit because of it, because of the launch and everything, been busy.

Thought, new month, new me.

My launch is finished.

Was doing some, plank march, and my dog came over, thought

we were playing, headbutted me.

So sporting a slightly fat lip.

So if I lisp, that might be why.

How are you?

Oh my God, what an intro.

I love when we, first came on this call, I was like, "Hi." And straight

away you were like, "I've got a

Call you immediately

I can't literally tell you why this is happening.

I'm good.

I'm good.

As you say, we're rec- recording on the 1st, and tomorrow morning I'm heading

off to Gothenburg for the weekend.

Yeah

What are you doing in Gothenburg?

And hang

on, what is Gothenburg famous for?

'Cause I feel like I know of it,

Batman?

it something to do with Batman?

Okay.

Why are you… Are you… Hang on.

Important question.

Sophie, are you Batman?

Oh, no, I didn't know you were gonna ask, and now I don't have an answer prepared.

Yes, I am indeed.

going?

we're going because… You'll love this, actually.

This is really you.

I saw a viral reel about European spas, and so we decided, me and my two

friends, who used to live on the same development as me before I just moved,

we were like, "We need a weekend away."

And we were trying to look for places, and we were like, we weren't

really bothered where we went.

You know when you're just like, "I don't… We're not really bothered where

we go. Let's just go away." And then obviously on Instagram I got served

one of the, European viral spa ones.

And I was like, "Do you know what, guys?

The flights are really cheap.

They've really good timings.", It's an 8:00 AM flight, which isn't

too early, but also gets you there so you've got, like, full time.

And then coming back, I think we land about 7:30 Sunday night, so you get full

day Sunday too, but you're not super late.

accommodation's really reasonable.

Food looks incredible.

And then we're going to this spa tomorrow, which is, like, 30 quid or

something, and There's, three levels.

. One level is, super chill.

The middle level is the, like… Have you ever heard of this before?

I've not.

it's the high energy spa level.

So it's where they have, disco and cocktails, and a pool.

pool with alcoholic cocktails overlooking the city.

I was like, "I mean, it doesn't get much better than this, guys."

So yeah, that's what we're doing

I speak for everyone, when I say, "I don't care that it's got nothing to do with your

business, you need to vlog the shit out of

Yeah

because I wanna see everything.

What I find is, I tell people this, like one of my best friends went to, France

summer, and they went to Île de Ré, and Île de Ré is on my list of

places I wanna go, and I was like, "I need so much detail from you."

And what I've had, and if you're listening, Chile, yes, I say this

with judgment, is "Oh yeah, babe, it was amazing. it so much."

Yeah

I'm like, "N- sorry, no, you've misunderstood the brief here.

I wanna know what was it like traveling there.

Give me a tour of your accommodation as soon as you arrive.

I wanna see what did you eat every single meal for the whole time you were there.

This is the level of detail I need from you, Sophie.

And then because it'll be good practice because I also need this

level of detail from you when you fly business class to Australia."

I think you're right.

I think it will be really good practice because I get back on Sunday, and then,

yeah, I've got, I think, nine days, and then I'll be flying out to Australia.

How are you feeling about that?

how am I feeling about that?

I feel… I don't know.

I f- I'm feeling really excited.

I'm feeling like, "Oh, my God, I can't believe it's actually coming round."

I'm a bit nervous about leaving the kids, not because I don't think they'll

be… Like, my husband's fully capable.

I put a reel out the other day.

I was like, "Oh, I'm not batch cooking anything, babe." Guys, seriously,

there's no batch cooking going on here.

I'm not prepping.

he's fully in control of everything.

But more, like, emotionally, it's the longest I've been away from

them, and I will be just very far.

so it's 13 days I'm away, and obviously I'm literally the other side of the world.

I think once I'm there, I will be absolutely fine.

Do you know what I'm quite looking forward to?

So I used to live in New Zealand.

Pete, my husband and I, we lived there for a year.

I know.

Did I not tell you that?

Yeah.

don't think you did tell me that.

yeah.

drop that in,

Sure, I'll just chuck that in.

yeah, when I worked for British Airways, they were trying to cut

their, wage bill after, I don't know, the ash cloud or something.

And so they offered everyone in the company up to a year's unpaid leave

with their job secure at the end.

Now, most people there took, the summer holidays off or something

like that, and, as they were all parents with kids we would be now.

But at the time, we didn't have any ties.

We didn't have a house.

, We had nothing.

So I took the full year, and we went and lived in New Zealand, for the year.

It was incredible.

But do you know what one of my favorite things was about it, is that, like,

you literally do what you wanna do.

you're literally beholden to no one.

No one's even awake when you're awake, so it's not even like you

feel like you have to be in contact with people most of the time.

So literally, as you wake up, everyone's going to bed, so you might have a quick

call in the morning, and then you didn't feel any obligation to do anything

other than what you wanted to do.

So I'm quite looking forward to that.

I'm quite looking forward to having a lot of time where I'm just like, "What

do I wanna do?" literally just me.

That feels quite wild

And you're not thinking about what anyone else is

No

or what anyone else… other than like the mastermind that you're going to.

But yeah, like if you wanna have something particular for dinner, you could just do

Yeah.

Or if I just wanna, eat cereal.

Yeah,

Ja

I know.

So I think that will be really nice.

but yeah, overall,, I am excited.

I just

Do you feel anxious?

I would feel very anxious just in general about that

Yeah, I don't know.

I was having, anxiety dreams a few weeks ago, but I'm not at the moment, no.

Thing is, it's gonna happen.

It is happening.

So I feel a little bit like maybe my launch anxiety and all the, like, stuff

that's gone on, how I felt over the launch is just, being like, "Oh, let's

put that in perspective, babe." "You,

Yeah.

fine.

that.

Don't worry about it."

How does Pete feel about it?

Because I remember when Wilf was six months old, Tone,

went to, a conference with two members of his team that was in Croatia, and it was

totally the right thing for him to go on.

logically, yeah, no, you should do that.

That's a great opportunity.

It was with the brand that he was working with at the time.

I was like, "Sounds amazing. Really amazing for your team members to get to

go. Yes." would say for, I wanna say months, but it might have been longer,

I was just in such a mood about it.

I couldn't get it together.

I wanted to be supportive, but I just couldn't, I couldn't get there.

Now, I think part of that was because I've got a six-month-old

who was, like, literally hanging off my boobs at all time.

and I think that, that swayed it slightly.

But is Pete able to be… Like, it takes a hell of a person, I think, to

be able to be, , completely supportive when it's gonna make their life more

challenging for that period of time

Yeah.

so when I booked it, I wanted to go and, talk to him about

it, and we went through it all.

To be honest, at first, his biggest issue with it was the money.

He was just like, "That is so much money that you're gonna spend on, business

class flights and, and then being over there and stuff. I'm struggling to see

how you can spend all of that and not then take it out the business. That's,

money we won't get." And then I found that quite hard because it is a lot of

money, but it's probably no more than I would spend on working with a coach.

It's just that I don't ever normally talk to him about that or say the

amount in total because normally, oh, it's X amount a month or whatever.

and then when I sort of also broke it down for him, I was like, "It's not like

we would get this money out the business. I've got all my costs, I've got tax, I've

got like VAT." All that stuff comes out.

It isn't the money that's literally us not getting it.

but we did agree at the time that if we agreed to me going, then he had to accept

that I was gonna be doing it, and I didn't want to be made to feel shit about it.

Because, I already knew that I would find it hard to be

away from the girls that long.

I didn't need him, then piling that on as well.

And also, I knew the girls were gonna be upset about me being away anyway.

So it's like, if he's also got that energy of "Yeah, it's really shit

Mommy's going away," that is just not gonna be helpful, to anyone.

so, no.

I would say overall, there's been a few comments about "Oh, you'll probably

be getting back really jet lagged, and I'll already be really tired as well,

so that's gonna be really difficult."

I said yeah.

It, it is.

that is what it is." And I don't really love that I'm making

everyone's life a bit harder.

But I think, the reason I'm doing it is to make everyone's life better.

although I talk about, , how great, and don't get me wrong, it will

be, going business class, being away for that amount of time, being

in Australia, like it's also…

It isn't just like I'm just taking myself off on a two-week holiday.

The reason why I invested in it is 'cause I truly genuinely believe that, going

to it, being around the women that are gonna be there, who've got, , incredible,

having, million-pound launches and stuff.

and, Ellie as well, who's got this incredible brain.

spending four days working on my business at that level, I truly believe

will pay the cost back in multiples.

And ultimately, that is why I am doing it.

So I think that's what I just have to hold on to, and that's what Pete knows as well.

And I think God, how much are you doing on a daily basis that

makes everyone's life easier?

How much are you doing on a daily basis that makes life easy

for all members of your family?

I was chatting with one of my clients this week and she's got an incredible

business and, know, makes lots of money.

and she was talking about masterminding and all, like being in the right

rooms and what a difference that's made to her business over time, and

surrounding yourself with people where you can just immediately lock in to

the type of conversations you need to be having to get to the next level.

Because sometimes if you go to and this isn't to poo-poo other networking

events or whatever, but if you go to, know, like generic networking, women

in business events, you never know who you're gonna end up in conversation with.

And there are some , conversations that are transactional, that are

happening where the other person is getting so much more from it, and

that you're almost like giving away your knowledge and you're like, okay.

I've left networking events before, online and in person where I've like,

people who talked to me got some great stuff out of that, but I didn't

necessarily feel like I got that much.

Whereas I think when you're paying to be in those rooms where the caliber is

like really high, it can really impact your business because you're just locking

into conversations at that , higher level

Yeah.

And I think ultimately, that's what I'm doing.

And I haven't found many of those rooms in the UK, and it might be

that I just haven't come across them.

I've seen some in America.

In all honesty, like the energy around them doesn't really appeal

to me, a lot of the American ones.

but yeah, I've worked with Ellie for a year.

I love all the people in the group and everything.

So yeah, I'm excited and I think actually that's quite an

interesting way for us to go into.

So like paying to be in the room is what I am doing.

Essentially I'm paying to be in that room.

and I know one of the things that you wanted to talk about a little bit was

around growing your audience and I think there is something that I would

really like to have a conversation about because also just setting up the

context, I'll be really honest, guys, we don't really know what this thing is.

Okay?

I've seen a few posts.

Ruthie doesn't think she's really seen anything about it.

There's definitely an underlying thing at the moment going on about an event,

some event, something about someone paid, some people paid 25K to speak on

a stage and there was a lot of backlash.

I'm not really sure exactly what the backlash was.

I don't even know where the event was.

So this is definitely, our whole conversation is

definitely not, what's the word?

what's the, like the disclaimer?

Like all our conversation , comes from a place of just generally

talking about the conversations that are happening now that I'm seeing

about, should you pay to be on stage?

What are events like that you go to where people have paid to be on the stage?

and it got me really thinking about the whole concept of growing your

audience and whether you are buying, building or borrowing, and how borrowing

other people's audiences, in this case seems to overlap with buying

and how that becomes a bit confusing.

So do you wanna go into a little bit about your kind of audience

thing, and then I think we can dig into it a little bit more?

Well, I just wanna say, when you first said that whole, buying,

borrowing, or building an audience, I just think that's genius.

I think you need to copyright it or something.

I think it's so good.

'Cause it really got me thinking more broadly about audience building.

Because I think audience building, when I hear that, I just think, oh, like lead

magnet, paying for ads, having a lead magnet that people can download, they join

your list, you know, yada, yada, yada.

But the reason why it's front and center is my launch closed yesterday, and I

know we're gonna do, a full debrief once your launch closes as well.

but I'm just really aware that I have rinsed my audience now talking

about the Bloody Good Story Club.

I'm not planning on opening it again until April, and part of that is because

I ne- I just can feel, the conversations that I'm having, I can feel that I

need to build my audience between then and now if I want to be able to keep

filling it, and getting people in.

And, I've had loads of, big thoughts during this launch.

and one of them is around, like, how I can, extend my audience, and

what is the right way to do it, and should I be trying to do all things?

Should I be trying to pick one?

Should I go all in on ads, or should I go all in, in front of, getting

onto people's podcasts and trying to find, ways of borrowing audiences?

So yeah, that's where I'm at is just, audience building I think

can feel like this enormous task of shit, okay, wanna build an audience.

I'm also, actually a bit scared of building an audience as well.

the safety in almost knowing everybody on your email list.

I'm the type of person, I go through my Instagram followers,

and I'll remove people that don't look like my ideal client.

So if I just see someone's followed me and I'm like, no, I don't think that you

look like my…" And I'll remove them.

Obviously, if I'm gonna grow a big audience, I can't do that.

I can't be that pernickety.

So yeah, I'd love to think about the different ways of building an audience,

and I think it'd be really useful for people at home as well to, to

understand, these are the different ways.

but also get into, some pe- some versions seem to be sniffed at.

Some p- some versions

of building an audience seem to be like, "Oh, yeah, no, worthy.

Great.

It's great that you're doing that." And then some it's like, "Ugh, thirsty.

Pathetic." like this one that I actually haven't heard about

where people have paid a massive amount of money to talk on a stage.

And that seems to be not good.

so yeah.

I'd love your thoughts.

I'd love to get into how to build an audience and which

ones are good and bad ones

Which one's a good amount?

We're just gonna put our judgment on it.

So

Yeah,

first of all, I think I should probably say I don't think

buy, borrow, and build is mine.

It would be great if it was, because I really love alliteration, and I'm happy

to take credit for bringing it to this podcast, but I don't think I created it.

It's

it's really good.

Whoever created it, it's really good.

We're totally here for it.

I think what's really interesting is at a top level it feels quite clear-cut.

So buy and you're like, okay, ads, we're buying access to an audience.

That feels quite obvious.

Borrow, oh yeah, I'll go on some podcasts.

I might do a, I don't know, a presentation, a workshop

in someone's mastermind.

be in other people's spaces.

and then build is like, okay, that's organic.

I'll just build my own audience on Instagram.

I think it feels really simple at that level.

But I think once you go into it, it gets really unclear.

So for me, build is probably the one that we can probably leave for now.

you are using ads to build your own audience.

Yes, you're buying access to them, but ultimately it is

growing your own audience.

But if we just leave that to the side for now, I think it's the borrow and

the buy that become a bit tricky.

For example- I would say not many people would expect to

be paid to go on a podcast.

Now, I don't really know the top level of podcasting, but my

understanding is that most people are not paid to go on podcasts.

you do them for free.

you do them for the access.

, If we had a guest on here, I would never dream of thinking

about paying them, at all.

And yet, if you are asked to do a workshop in a mastermind, for example,

I think that's a bit less clear.

am I just going in and I'm doing it for free for the access because I

am trying to borrow access to their audience to grow my own audience

'cause they want to buy from me?

And if that's the case, am I allowed to pitch?

And then if you pay me, am I not allowed to pitch because

I'm already getting paid for it?

Or, I'm certainly not paying you to come and speak in your

mastermind, I don't think.

but I think that is a little bit less clear for me.

And then when you get to the stage, then you're talking about… And also

I would probably put in, I think PR probably sits in this as well, where

the top of the top, like the ultimate goal is to get paid to speak on

stages and get paid to do PR, right?

And have, articles and, be promoted within the press.

The next level down is, if you can get it for free.

So I'd say that's a lot more common in PR, right?

You'll happily give your time to write an article if you're

gonna be in Stylist magazine.

You don't necessarily expect to be paid, but what an incredible, opportunity.

And then there's, I think a bit sniffy is, if you pay to have,

an article in a, a magazine.

It's like, what's it called?

an advertorial or something.

That's a bit like, "Oh, no.

Oh, no, you can't really do… That's not very good." And then with speaking

on stages, again, it's like we're all getting really sniffy about, "Oh, pay.

They paid that much to be on a stage?

Oh, God.

How off." "Oh, no." Then I've seen people be like, "Oh, I'd never.

I'd never pay to be on a stage.

I just don't…. It's just not a strategy I'd use." Fair enough But I also think

if you are sponsoring things, so for example, sponsoring a podcast and then

getting a spot on that podcast as in, then doing an episode as part of the

sponsorship deal, is that not being paid?

Or sorry, paying to speak.

and then, doing speaking for free, That's I think, more your choice.

People tend to do it a bit more earlier on.

Maybe they don't wanna do it a bit later on.

And then getting paid to speak is the top of the top.

Top of the top.

But I think it's very easy when you get to the point where you are being

asked to do paid speaking, when you are getting PR, when your audience is

growing, when people are approaching you to do workshops in their mastermind and

offering to pay you, I think it's really easy to forget that doesn't just come.

you do not just start a business and get opportunities like that.

You have to prove yourself.

You have to put the time in.

You have to practice.

You have to understand what the audience want.

You have to get yourself in front of audiences to see if

you even wanna speak on stages.

And I just think we can get a little bit, as an industry, I'm talking about

here, it is very easy, I think, to turn on something and be like, "That's

not a good way of doing it," when actually, are we remembering here that

we are all trying to build businesses?

And ultimately, is it that different paying to be on a

stage versus paying for ads?

I'm not sure that it is

No, and it probably isn't.

And I think what's also, easy to, I don't know, underestimate, it's like it's really

hard to know the right route forward is.

So you know, actually, when I was on your strategy day, I wrote down that

I would love to get paid to speak.

I love speaking.

And my best ideas come out when I'm talking, and I love presenting.

But then that's great to write it down, but also how much time, energy am I going

to invest into making that something that I can be paid regularly for?, Because

actually in my mind there is a complete correlation between profile and payment.

So you know, I'm sure that if you're dropping like a celebrity

name, you're getting paid for it.

So like I go to,, various awards ceremonies with my husband and

his business, and they always have a celebrity speaker.

And the celebrity speaker's hardly ever got any link to the industry.

They're just being paid to be a name on the stage, and it's their name and profile

that is attracting the fee that I'm sure

is huge, . and they're thinking, "God, one night reading off an autocue.

Brilliant." I just think we can be a bit sniffy, and I think it's really hard

when you're the actual business owner to have a bit of empathy for a minute,

to be like, I'm constantly navigating, is that the right thing for me to do?

it gonna be a waste of my money to run ads when I don't really

know what I'm doing with them?

, Am I gonna end up attracting the wrong people?

So therefore, would I be better off spending money to try and get in

front of audiences that I know I've got a bit more control over, like

sniffing out opportunities to work with people where I think there's

a real great overlap, for example.

I don't know, it's just hard to make those decisions.

is it worth my while going and doing workshops And the problem with that is

sometimes you don't know until you're in there, because you can have a perceived

idea about somebody's audience, And then you turn up and you're like, "Oh no, this

isn't what I thought it was gonna be.

They weren't that interested," or, "It didn't really go how I wanted

to." And then you've wasted time and energy, and lost money that

you could have sold the time.

So it's just a real balancing act all the time, and, I don't know at the moment

what the right step forward is for me.

Ads, like you say, feels like an easy one.

Not easy to do, but easy to broadly accepted.

People know that if they get served an ad, they know they're being served an

ad. People are used to , that process.

But when it comes to, other ways of doing it, it's really hard to weigh up.

I had an opportunity presented to me recently to go and speak,

and it's a really generous opportunity to go and speak at a

thing that somebody was holding.

a paid opportunity.

And then I'm, like, weighing up, how much realistically would I be

able to promote myself in that forum without it seeming unprofessional?

Because you don't wanna lessen the quality of the experience of the person sitting

there because you wanna get a plug in, because that's why you're doing it.

Do you see what I

Yeah, I totally see what you mean.

And I think as well, it's what's really interesting is the people

hosting the events and hosting the, the opportunities, if you like.

So like you say, I had a client who did, had a really strong strategy of going

into other people's groups and doing a workshop thing, and then at the end

having an offer which gave the people in that group a really big discount.

And, she made quite a lot of money out of that strategy.

The challenge was, is that, A, there's only so many of

those groups that are relevant.

and there's actually a lot less than there used to be as well.

A lot of those groups don't allow you to sell now, that's, I

think it's changed quite a bit.

because there's a lot less free Facebook communities now and there's

a lot less big memberships that then just allow you to come in.

but also what she found was towards the end, she doesn't do it so much

anymore, is that she'd turn up and, they would have an audience of we've

got this membership, there's 500 people in it, it's a really engaged group and

she'd turn up and there'd be like three people on the call to do the workshop.

And that's it's like what you're saying, isn't it?

You have far little control over that than if you were, say, running ads where

you are the one obviously in control.

I do think there is something about the person hosting that workshop.

how much time and energy did they put in to getting people there, to promoting

it within the community, to making sure that it was an aligned opportunity that

their members were actually going to be interested in rather than just ticking a

box to say we have a monthly , workshop, you've got what you've paid for.

doesn't really matter if it aligns or not.

and if you're paying 25K to, speak on a stage, is the room gonna be full?

is that experience for the whole audience actually gonna be a good

one where they're gonna be engaged and listening and open to it?

Because I think some of the feedback from the event was that every person on

the stage, it just felt , like a pitch, just like basically the whole thing

was a sell and you just sat through like loads of selling presentations.

And I've seen a lot of people saying "That's why I choose

not to run my events like that.

That's why I pay people to come so they don't have to pitch." That's why, I think

you get much more from people if you know the audience are actually engaged

and interested and listening rather than just being sold to the whole day.

And I totally get that.

And I think then that does make it challenging for if you want to start

speaking, for like you, for example, where are the events that allow you to

either speak for free or pay to speak?

So I actually, you probably don't know this, Ruthie.

This is , pre-Sophie and Ruthie.

I was in a mastermind.

, This was a few years ago now.

And 'cause I wanted to do more speaking.

I was like, I think I'm, I like you, I love speaking.

It's one of my favorite things to do.

Surely I want to be on stages.

I feel like I'm made for stages.

Um, so I came across this mastermind, and it was six months long, and the premise

of it was is she was, , a speaker coach, and we would spend six months working

on our, signature talk, if you like.

what our, topics would be, working on the signature talk, and at

the end she was then hosting an event where we would all speak

on the stage.

, And essentially, deliver our talk.

And then she was gonna have a professional videographer there, you'd have photos

done, so you could then take that and then, speak on more stages, 'cause

you'd have proof of what you did.

your

Yeah.

So essentially, I paid to be on the stage, if you break it down.

it wasn't a great mastermind.

I won't go into the details of it, but ultimately I think the biggest challenge

of it was that the people in the group, and I see this a lot, 'cause I… This

is a model that I have seen, quite a lot, and it's, a multi-speaker event.

Pretty much all the people speaking are clients of the person running the event.

Whether it's a specific speaking, , thing, or whether it's just generally, I'm

putting , an event on and so I'm gonna ask all of my clients to speak, as,

what a great bonus or, sometimes to get clients to pay or whatever it is.

I've seen a lot of these, and I've been to quite a few of them, and I

think the biggest challenge of them is that when people are then bringing

people into the mastermind they don't think about the audience experience.

Because what unfortunately happened was that we were all running

really different businesses.

mine was about ads and super fans.

There was someone else there who was a permanent makeup artist, and

Her whole business was training other permanent makeup artists.

So she was, like, in a completely different industry.

she was, like, looking out into this audience and was just like, "There's

nobody here that is going to be interested in what I am saying right

now. it's not gonna benefit me. There's not gonna be any of my clients in

the audience." the person who ran the event, really struggled to fill it,

there was a reasonably full room in the end, but there was a lot of pressure

put on us to help, get people there.

overall it wasn't a great experience for me, and I don't

think it was a great experience for the audience , in all honesty.

And I think that's the biggest challenge, is I don't think the

premise of the mastermind and speaking at the end, I don't think

there was anything wrong with that.

It was a really great, logical way to get your first experience on the stage.

But I think it's the way that the event is managed , and, designed for

the audience, that causes the issues.

Yeah.

You're so right, because as you were talking, I was thinking

it's basically three sets of stakeholders in any of these, right?

question for all of it is, who's the opportunity for?

Because is the person designing the event trying to make money?

Because that's gonna change the intention behind it.

Then if you've also got the speakers or the person, on the stage,

whatever, also trying to make money, they're trying to recruit.

Then really the only person that stands to lose if we're not careful is the

audience, the person listening to it.

'Cause they've got someone who's just trying to sell tickets

and just trying to make money.

Then you've got someone else trying to make money.

If they haven't been paid, they're trying to make money.

And so you've just got, two kind of hungry beasts an audience sitting

there who've paid for to be there, who are then still getting, sold to.

And so it's hard.

I think it's that question, and on a smaller level, when you're asked

to go and speak at somebody's event, online, let's say, they've got a

online master class or whatever.

who's benefiting most out of this?

if they're accessing your audience, you're gonna promote it for them.

getting quite a lot of benefit.

Where does the benefit land for you?

and what's the benefit for the audience?

And

I think that's the problem.

I think often in these situations, I think it's why ads is simpler.

'Cause there's two sets of stakeholders.

There's the audience and there's you.

Whereas in some of these murkier conversations, there's

three sets of stakeholders.

There's an audience who want to feel satisfied and wanna have a

good experience, but then there's normally someone who's designing

the event or the podcast or the host or whatever, and there's the person

who's attending or helping speaking.

And so there's, almost, too many chiefs.

it's trying to satisfy everybody's needs.

Whereas in some of those simpler audience building, you know, like

a freebie, there's the person who designed the freebie and there's

the person who receives it.

With ads, there's the person who's running the ads and the person who sees the ads.

So I think where it gets complicated is where there's, like, all these

stakeholders and is everybody getting the same amount of attention and

focus on what the outcome is for them.

I think that's where it gets murky.

and, when I think about what you were talking about with, speaking on stage.

Actually, do I wanna speak on stages really?

Or is it that some types of audience building have more gravitas

attached to them and have, a sort of cloak of success around them?

"Oh my God, she spoke on a stage.

She's fucking made it." Whereas, a little bit like, "Oh my God, she

spent £10,000 on ads." less sexy.

Do you know what I

I know exactly what you mean because the interesting thing that came from me doing

that whole thing and speaking on the stage was that, I was exhausted afterwards.

we had to travel to the event.

It wasn't even that far from me.

It was about an hour.

traveled to the event., I stayed overnight the night before,

because obviously , we had to be there really early in the morning.

obviously we spent the whole day at the event.

I was absolutely exhausted afterwards, and I was like, do I actually want a strategy

that takes me away from home more often?

Do I actually want a strategy that is, for me personally, really

exhausting?" I don't enjoy small talk.

I find it very hard.

We've talked about this before on one of our previous episodes.

if you go back to, I think it was probably one of the first few we

did, and it was about Atomicon.

We talked about, i find events with a lot of people draining.

They don't fill my cup up.

I have to have a lot of time afterwards to recover.

So do I actually want to pursue that strategy?

'Cause it doesn't really align with how I want to, live my life, run my business.

But there's something even now still I see, you're right, online is like an

ego thing of oh, been asked to, , be on a panel for this event, or oh, I'm

speaking on a stage and doing this event, or I'm, comparing this event.

and there's still a bit of me that's like, "Oh, that, yeah." There's

that ego piece of, "I wanna be asked to do that." And I'm like, "Do you

Yeah

Sophie?

I honestly, I think when I wrote that down at your strategy day, I was

writing down the fact that I wanted to, what my intention was, is that I

want to be less done for you, So I was writing down all the different ways

I could do things that would generate income that would be less done for you.

And so I wrote that down, and it is true, I do like a captive audience.

I do enjoy people being forced, via microphone to listen to , me talk.

But do I, how much of it is that I sometimes catch myself chasing things

that will prove that I'm doing a good job?

And I think there are certain things like speaking on a stage, having a book, know?

, Being an author.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm sure that for so many people a book is an amazing

thing because especially if they can get great press for it, if they can

make some bestseller lists, all amazing positioning, building your profile, And

also, what an amazing source of, loads of information that you can just So

all sorts of reasons why that's good.

That's not me saying having a book's a bad idea.

I think it can be a great idea.

But I can find myself sometimes thinking, "Mm, maybe I should write a book. Maybe

I should write a book." it's just, I just think it's really hard to choose,

what am I meant to be doing here?

should I be trying to get PR?

I be trying to speak on stages?

Should I be trying to get into other peoples' to do workshops?

Should I be trying to go on podcasts?

Should I be building an email list via ads?

And just don't know which one I'm meant to do next, and so I end up

doing a little bit of everything, but not doing anything particularly well.

Because I think you think, "Oh, well, I'll take that opportunity." I find

it very hard to say no when someone asks me to do Find that super tricky,

'cause I'm just like, "Yeah, sure.

Grateful." but it is hard to know the value lies … Even, , when

we were talking about Atomicon, is it worth going to from a

networking perspective or isn't it?

I just wish there was, like, an easy way for us to be able to

qualify things without judgment.

'Cause, that comes into my decision-making all the time.

I'm like, "Is that gonna look, a bit thirsty if I do that? Is that gonna look

a bit desperado?" I don't want to do that.

I wanna build an audience that feels really good, not one that's just loads of

numbers but no one's buying, or loads of numbers or no one actually gives a shit.

Yeah.

And I think that when you were saying like, "I wish there was a way of knowing

like which one I should do," I think that is where It comes down to what your goals

are, , and how you actually wanna run your business, and , how much you kind

of wanna focus on different elements.

for example, if you were to focus on going on podcasts, , doing master classes, like,

being in, other people's groups, other people's spaces, that's gonna be less

consistent growth than ads because you're gonna be, , waiting for other people.

you're gonna be trying to find them, you're gonna be trying to get on them.

You're, , at the whim of other people's, schedules, , when

they want you, et cetera.

But you get in front of those audiences, and after an hour with you, like we both

said, we're very good then at connecting with people and converting them.

not necessarily selling to them, like converting them, but as in,

they'll be in your world from there.

So I think if you wanted to focus on, slower growth but only essentially,

warm audience growth, then I think that would be the place to start to focus.

For me, for most of my clients, they want the consistency underneath it so they then

have the capacity to do the stuff on top.

So for me, generally, it starts with clients start by

building their own platform.

So they start by being on Instagram, working out their messaging,

, getting one-to-one clients.

They have Instagram already there.

Then they start with buying.

So then they'll be like, "Okay, I'm gonna get some momentum here.

I'm gonna grow my email list.

I'm gonna get more people onto my Instagram.

I'm gonna start to expand that message in a consistent way." 'Cause once you've got

them up and running, they can run, day in, day out, and that's then done essentially.

And then your job then is to nurture.

It's to, be visible, do stories, run your own workshops, like nurture

that audience because they're not coming to you really warm.

They're coming to you slightly cooler than having never heard of you.

But there's quite a job there, which is the whole super fans

piece I work on with clients.

there's quite a job there to get them then engaged and buying.

And then, the layer on top, for me anyway, is how I see it, is then

you can really start to borrow.

And I did a lot of borrowing alongside ads.

I did a lot of borrowing, in the early days.

I did loads of master classes.

I went on loads of people's podcasts.

I was really, proactive in being in other people's faces.

And I think you can do it alongside it, but I think if you're not running

ads alongside it, it can feel very inconsistent and really disappointing if,

like I was saying earlier, you're going along thinking, "Okay, I'm gonna organize

at least two opportunities every month to get in front of someone else's audience."

You put quite a lot of time and energy in.

You prep for it all.

You're there.

You're giving up an hour of your time.

Most of those things… I think I got paid to do one.

Most of the things I did were free.

and then you turn up and there's two people there, and you're like, this isn't

really gonna grow my audience, is it?"

And this is my, this is one of my two opportunities a month.

That can be quite disheartening if you haven't got the other

side of it working quite well.

and then I think really the borrow stuff, like once you've got your audience

working really well, you've got like people joining your email list, you've

got people coming to your organic, you're building that momentum, then

like layering on the PR and the speaking on stages and , that sort of stuff can

then- that's the like real scaling stage.

I'm sure there'll be people that disagree, by the way, and I know

that you don't have to wait.

So I know I've worked with lots of people who do PR stuff, and I know they'll be

screaming at this podcast being like, "You don't have to wait to do PR. You don't

have to wait till you're more experienced. Like you do PR straight away."

And that is fundamentally the same of any strategy.

but for me generally, I would say most of my clients, they want the

consistency first, so they can then put their attention on the stuff

that requires more proactive energy.

if you're gonna pitch to be in different stuff, you have to actively put time

aside that to continuously do it.

It's not like a one and done thing.

Whereas once you've got ads running, they're fairly templated from there

And do you know, what you were saying was just really got me thinking.

Sometimes all of these things are presented to us as, equals.

So oh, I'm gonna my own podcast, or I'm going to run ads, or I'm going

to go into other people's worlds and try and get seen and stuff.

And , I was seeing them in my brain as like a, in like a sushi

coming round with all of these.

But actually they're doing different things, aren't they?

Someone actually said to me, the launch, like, oh, I'm actually really focusing

on… And I had one person that said, "I'm focusing on having my own podcast."

And someone else who said, I'm really, focusing on getting PR." Now, for some

businesses I could see, oh, actually, yeah, for that business I can see that

PR could form a really important part due to the nature of their business.

Being seen as a profile, like I can see that would really be quite important.

But they're doing different things, and I think it's easy to

put them all on the same level.

But what you were just saying helped me see, actually-, for example,

if we decided, we're gonna really go all in on the podcast, how we

marketed that would need to change.

'Cause at the minute we're using it as nurture.

So it's maybe some new people are coming to the world, but actually it's

doing a really good job of people who are in the world, getting them to know

you better, know me better, and so on.

But if we wanted to go like, "Okay, we're gonna become a number one

podcast that everyone's listening to in business," we wanna be Diary

of a CEO, but it's should I care listening to Ruthie and Sophie natter?

we would have to change the way that we were deciding to market it.

We would have to change the way that we were approaching it.

And so that's what I think is a really useful takeaway for everybody and

what you said about, what's the goal?

that has to be the thing.

And actually, if I'm completely honest, goal, if I really anchor

myself to what my goals are to make running a business as easy as possible

and as lift as possible for me.

Not in terms of working with my clients.

I always wanna give that my all, but in terms of the other shit you have to do.

so I don't necessarily want to have to be grafting to find out if there's

anybody who wants me to go into X, Y, Z. And actually, if I think about it,

the one that does feed my overarching goal and ambition would be to have some

ads running that are growing my audience when I know that I've done a good job

with nurturing my organic audience.

I know I've got that in place when it comes to my social or my email list.

So yeah, I think that's a really useful takeaway is actually,

what are you trying to do?

Because not all opportunities are equal, but also not all strategies are equal.

They're like different ones for different times.

but we can get set on no, I'm, I definitely want to have If someone

doesn't know who I am yet and they're cold, me having a book's not gonna make

a jot of difference to them, is it?

They're not gonna find my book if they don't know who I am

And I think the interesting thing with books as well, that I have been…

I've literally, not had a huge amount of experience, but I know a few

friends who've written books and, the thing I think that's always thought

of as hard is, writing the book.

, Yeah, I mean, it's definitely not easy, but actually the real challenge is then

once you've written it and you've got it out there, you have to then sell it.

And you have to really, go for it and promote yourself.

and I think the other thing with a book is about, what's the intent here?

Do I wanna use it as a body of work so that I can then get speaking

gigs and, talk about it more?

, Is the goal then that I'm gonna get paid for the speaking gigs?

it that I wanna use the book to then sell a passive course off the back of it, and

therefore the money really is gonna come in, people buying the course off the back?

Is it that I wanna be seen as an expert, and therefore I can get more

one-to-one clients off the back of it?

But ultimately, most people don't do a book to make money from

the book, is my understanding.

there's always gotta be a goal behind it.

And I guess, for me, if I'm thinking about it, would I sell a

lot more spots in Outrageous if I had a book about group programs?

Probably not.

If I put all that time and energy from writing a book, getting it published,

getting it out there and promoting it.

If I took all of that time and energy and put it into promoting Outrageous, would

I get the same if not better results?

Probably.

And, that's not to say it doesn't work really well for other

people, but I think it's very easy to get caught up in I should.

Do, like you say, all these things feel equal.

would say for me, most people, what I would encourage them to do is, work

with you on organic, with me on ads.

we're a great

I think

Yeah, what a comeback

and then once you've got that sorted, it's almost, that's

when I think the fun comes in.

That's when you get to pick your, pick the thing that you love.

So some people will then go off and do a book.

Some people then will add a podcast in, so that's where

we're at, adding the podcast in.

Some people will start spending more time, , talking on stages or doing PR.

My next move, I think probably later this year or early next year, will be more PR.

That's probably the next layer that I'm gonna add on.

talking mostly about, women, running businesses and having ambition,

being wealthy, and having that financial long-term security in

place, and how important that is.

Like, I'm just so passionate about it.

I feel like that would be a really good thing for me to talk more about PR-wise.

I'm not doing it necessarily to get more people into Outrageous, because

I'm not gonna be talking about group programs or how you should do it.

that's not gonna be interesting to people, It's more about, I think, my story and

generally growing my profile online

Yeah, and then it's I think it, it'll cascade down, I think so.

Let's imagine you've got the foundation built.

You know that you're good at being consistent on organic.

You know you've got your ads running.

You know that actually you can fill your programs with the process

that you're currently doing.

So that's, happening.

But I think, if you then are getting PR, talking about, financial abundance

for women, and actually financial security for women, and women feeling

secure financially, there's a profile build that's happening that means that

the next time somebody sees your ads, they might not be completely cold.

They might be, "Oh, I recognize." And so it does have, like, an

accelerator impact, doesn't it?

But only if it's already got something to attach itself to, maybe.

but I think it's interesting to just be thinking about all of these,

there's ways that feel high profile.

There's ways that even you just saying, "I think the next step for

me is PR," I'm like, "Ooh," "ooh, she's getting PR," "Ooh, she's fancy."

it?

I think PR's

It is.

I'm like, I'm-

the one that's like, ooh.

I have absolutely, zero desire to be on telly.

I have zero desire to be on This Morning.

I don't want to be on Die Over CEO.

At the moment, I've

No

real visibility blocks around that level of PR, but would I… I think

definitely more online publications, interviews, like being named.

I totally see, I 100% buy into, if I see someone says Featured

in Forbes, Stylist, whatever.

If I see that, I absolutely… There is a trust,

Me too.

trusting them I'm absolutely like, "Oh. Oh, okay, they know what they're

talking about." And rightly or wrongly, that absolutely works on me,

and I want that for people who find

Yeah

I know I'm good at what I do.

I know that I've helped so many people, and I know that I could help so many more.

So I had this thing, so I realized this morning, in fact, this is live

information, guys, that from the beginning of 2025 through to now, so what are we at?

1st I have made £500,000 in my business.

I know, it's half a million.

Half a million

Half a million pounds

So it's like, what?

Just under two years.

I know., Because I'm fucking mental, my goal now is to do that in a year.

So instead of it taking me nearly

Love

years, I want to do that next year in a year.

But I know that from what my process is right now, I could scale them up.

if I think, "Okay, how do I double my revenue next year?" It's not gonna be

just doing more of what I'm already doing because ultimately, I'm not just gonna

be posting more, . i don't want to start spending loads and loads of money on ads.

I will increase my ad spend, but I want there to be something else,

another reason, not just like more ad spend, more launches, more offers.

actually want more people into the offers I've already got, but I

want it to still feel really easy.

and I think adding a layer of PR.

I don't want to speak on stages still.

I still really examine that one.

I'm not saying I'll never

Yeah

I'm not, if you see me on a stage, you're not like, "Oh- she's changed.

She got paid to

She's a liar

But more like I don't want, that's not gonna be a core strategy of mine.

gonna be, like me touring the country, only speaking, and

that's like my main thing.

that's never been a goal of mine, and I still don't think that, in a

life stage that I'm at right now, it just isn't quite right for me.

but I could definitely see how PR could be part of that, half

a million pound a year strategy.

Yeah, I can too.

I just think this is a really interesting conversation because it's

got me thinking, it really has got me thinking about, like, how easy it

is to get distracted by opportunity or what other people are doing.

'Cause, comparison's a bitch, isn't it?

And so you're like, "Oh my God, maybe I should be doing that.

Maybe I do wanna speak on stage.

Maybe I do wanna do X, Y, Z." And it's, taking a minute to actually

analyze,… When I'm setting my goals or when I think about what I want my

business to be, is it feeding into that?

Because I just want my business to feel really nice.

one of the things that I love about my business is that I don't

have to put shoes on very often.

that makes me really happy.

And don't get me wrong, I do definitely like maybe once a month

to have something that I'm going to.

Now, quite often it's me going to the FEA offices in Wilmslow, and

that's enough for my nervous system.

I have a great day.

I'm a terrible distraction to everybody involved because I'm

not used to working in an office anymore, and then I come home.

Or, doing the in-person day with you, loved it, but could

I be doing that all the time?

No, siree, Bob.

I would be fucked.

I would be a miserable cow.

So it is just reminding yourself to, check in … And I think you're good

at that, so if you're good at being strategic, of being like, "Okay, no,

this is still feeding into the wider…"

I think I'm still just, I have to avoid becoming a busy fool.

I'm like, "Yeah, I'm gonna do that.

Yeah, I'm gonna…" And I've come off the back of this launch and I'm like,

"Okay, maybe I need to do something immediately, while I've got momentum,

like, while I'm feeling good." But I've got to challenge myself to think properly

about that, not to just do it for the sake of doing it, which can feel like the

next thing to do, without trying to think,

" Is this gonna feed into my goal of wanting more reoccurring revenue," but

still wanting life to feel, easy and not having to put shoes on too often

I have actually got a suggestion

Go on.

You know I love free coaching

I mean, I'm doing a whole week next week , on your how to grow and make

more money from your group offer.

I feel like you should come, Ruthie.

when this goes out, guys, it will be day two of the sprint,

so you can still probably join.

come

I'm gonna do it

But for right now, I'm just gonna say to Ruthie, and for anyone else

who is listening, that's exactly what we're doing on the sprint, guys.

Okay?

We're making a

Is it gonna be…

a plan

But I am gonna come to that.

I'm gonna… can you send me the link?

because, yeah, I think it will help me get some clarity.

I think it's just hard, isn't it?- One of the things I just think is

hard is when you're just, me, myself, and I, and sometimes you just…

And I guess that's why you're doing sensible things like paying to be

in groups and having coaches and stuff, whereas I just like to sit

in my spare bedroom and, try and pontificate my way out of things

Or verbalize it all on the podcast, which is also very

trying,

I find

it is, and try and get some free advice off somebody who's,

further along the line than me.

I'm like, "Just a question for the audience, Sophie."

Good to know

Just like really, let's just say for purpose of this conversation that

they've got, I don't know, an online group program that's to do with organic

social media, just like pie in the sky.

Let's just make up a scenario here.

I love it.

Okay.

That's where we're at with, growing your audience.

I think there's no… it's not clear cut.

I don't think we should be sniffy at any options.

I think , all of them serve a purpose, but I do think it's about,

I think you're absolutely right.

You nailed it when you said, I think the reason why there is a lot of

chat about events and speaking is because there is a slightly different

dynamic there between, there's three different stakeholders, and for everyone

getting what they need is quite hard

It definitely is.

And and I think you were right when you said, actually, I think it's on

the person who's designing the event to really have an investment in all of

that, to make sure that it's not just them making the money or achieving

the goal that they want to set out.

Is the person speaking or taking part, but also is the audience?

'Cause I think it's very easy to forget about the audience in that

dynamic, and I think that's where people are feeling dissatisfied.

'Cause if you've paid to be in an event but the speaker's also

paid, If they've paid 25 grand or whatever it was to speak on a stage,

they're gonna wanna sell from it.

They need a return on their investment.

So you've got people with that appetite in two places, and then

an audience who've paid to be there just sitting to be sold to.

That is gonna feel icky.

But I don't think it's the person that's paid to be there's fault.

I think it's the person who's created the opportunity

Yeah.

and hasn't thought it through

Yeah, completely agree.

Okay.

Well, guys, we will see you next Tuesday