US investment accounts do not automatically follow a move abroad. Custodians have their own policies for international clients, and many of them are more restrictive than most people expect.

In this episode, Arielle Tucker, CFP®, EA sits down with Otto Rivera, EA, CFP®, founder of Mindful Wealth Planning and Emergent Tax Services. Otto spent years at Charles Schwab before becoming both an IRS Enrolled Agent and a CFP®, a combination that gives him a working view of custodial policy, tax law, and financial planning that most cross-border advisors cannot offer from a single seat.

Topics covered, include:

• What actually changes for US investment accounts when moving abroad: custodian policies, mutual fund restrictions, and why ETF access may require an advisor
• Financial accounts, custodians, and how to check for international coverage before a move
• Multi-custodian access, the Schwab Italy exit, and finding advisors who can hold and invest in foreign currency
• Emerging wealth vs. complex strategy: when adding layers makes sense and when it doesn't
• Why US persons should keep account records and foreign address information current
• Cross-border tax compliance: why withholding rules, PFICs, Roth conversions, IRA distributions, and ETF restrictions require specialized planning for US expats
• Why working with a domestic US advisor after moving abroad can create problems at tax time
• Cross-border divorce, ERISA retirement plans, and why a foreign decree is not enough

Resources

• Find a vetted cross-border financial advisor or tax professional at passporttowealth.com/directory
• Are you a qualified professional serving US expats in France or Europe? Apply to passporttowealth.com/join

Mentioned in this episode:

www.passporttowealth.com

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Welcome to Passport to Wealth. I'm your host, Arielle Tucker, certified financial planner and fellow US expat. On this show, we bring together cross-border experts and global Americans to help you make confident decisions about your life, your money, and your next move abroad. Let's get started.

Welcome back to Passport to Wealth. My name is Arielle Tucker. And today we're diving into one of the most overlooked and expensive parts of moving abroad, your investments. Because the reality is, your financial life

doesn't just move when you're a US expat. Joining us today is my friend and colleague, Otto, a CFP, an enrolled agent who specializes in cross-border financial planning for US expats. He's the founder of Mindful Wealth Planning and Emergent Tax Services. And he spent years helping globally mobile professionals avoid costly mistakes when investing and managing taxes across countries. In this conversation, we're unpacking the real challenges US expats face from losing access to investment accounts

to navigating ETF restrictions, to understanding how taxes and life events

like divorce or inheritance can become it significantly more complex across borders. Otto, thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you for having me, Arielle. So nice to be here with you.

You are such a unicorn because you are coming to us

with an investment management background.

You have really wonderful experience working at Charles Schwab

and so you understand the custodial background.

You are an IRS enrolled agent,

meaning that you can help navigate all the tax complexities

for US expats regardless of where they are in the world.

And of course, you're a certified financial planner.

So you really are kind of one of those unicorns in this space

who sees the different facets

and how they all tie together.

And I'm glad today that our conversation

is really focused around investing

because it's not something that we've talked a ton

on the podcast.

And I don't think people recognize or always realize,

I'm gonna move abroad and I have my US investments.

How is my life going to change?

So like, what does change for people

when they move abroad with their investment accounts?

It's a big change in the sense of

wherever your assets are located

or your investments or accounts.

Every custodian or every broker dealer

has different policies when you move abroad, right?

There's some that are more friendly for international clients.

There are some that are not friendly at all.

So you would either get two reactions

from the company that holds or the companies, right?

The whole your accounts either.

Yes, that's fine.

You can move on will change your address or say,

no, actually can keep the accounts here

because you're moving abroad.

You need to move your assets to someplace else.

So that's a big stunner for a lot of people

that are not expecting that.

It just depends where you have your assets.

And it is really wise from the beginning of the process

to start asking those questions to the companies

that do provide that service to you

because it's not only keeping your accounts,

but even after the move,

there will be some restrictions on the usual investments

that you can make and the accounts, for example.

Non-US residents cannot buy mutual funds.

You can keep the ones you have.

They can keep you investing,

but you cannot buy additional ones.

So if you have some kind of mutual fund strategy,

that's not going to be possible after you move.

Also, some custodians will restrict

you like ETFs like I do.

I love ETFs.

If you like US ETFs.

Well, right, that's what we always hear

when we're reading all those financial books

about how to be financially savvy,

it's always built around like a low-cost,

indexed ETF strategy, right?

Build your first million with four ETFs.

And I love that strategy.

I believe in that kind of approach for a lot of people,

but it gets a lot more complicated

if you can't actually access those ETFs you wanna buy.

Right, so for retail clients, if they move abroad,

some custodians will not let them trade on US ETFs.

They will not let them, they will not give them access.

They will actually require an investment advisor

to do that for them.

So it is something you should consider

if you're moving abroad,

establishing a relationship with a cross-border financial advisor

that can do trading for you.

If you wanna keep that investment,

let's stop and put some names and some definitions

into this conversation.

Cause we're using things like investments or your brokerage.

What do these things even mean?

So let's start with, you know, your financial accounts.

That may be a number of different institutions, not just one.

So you may work with Chase and Wells Fargo

and Charles Schwab and Merrill Lynch, right?

These are all custodians and financial institutions

that you may or may not have a relationship with.

Think about, you know, all of your account access

that you have and understand

that each of those financial institutions

may have a different set of rules

because these are not governed federally.

These are a situational basis

based on who the custodial is,

what market they're going after.

It also can depend on how long you've had that relationship

with them and how much money you have.

Because I have seen, I have a couple clients,

I remember working with the Vanguard

and I'm like,

Vanguard doesn't support you in Europe.

Well, these clients had a lot of money

and Vanguard was happy to continue to support them

even though for most of their clients,

they would never consider doing that.

So it's very situational.

What I always like to tell people,

if you're planning and moving abroad,

a great way to start the conversation

with your bank or financial advisor is,

if I was to move abroad,

think about a specific country or region

because this is also going to impact the rules, right?

If we're going into highly regulated Europe,

that may look very different

than if you end up in, say Taiwan, right?

Every country is going to have different considerations

on both sides.

You can just say, what would it look like

if I decided to move to Argentina tomorrow?

Would you still be able to support me?

Ask it very hypothetically.

You haven't said you're moving,

maybe you're just thinking about it.

That's a great way to start the conversation.

I absolutely agree.

And as you said, each custodian,

each company has their own risk appetite

and their compliance requirements

and they will take the decision space on what they do.

It's quite arbitrary, right?

You may not be able to appeal it.

It's something that you'll have to navigate

and asking questions from the get-go is key.

Just start asking questions,

find out before you do the move.

And I think, I wanna go back to a couple of years ago,

we've talked about this before,

where the rules have changed, right?

Where certain custodians will say,

no problem, we can support individuals in this country

and then they change the ride.

And then you're stuck in the same way,

that holding pattern of, you can hold these assets,

but you can't rebalance your account.

You can't do anything but sell those assets.

So you're stuck either holding or liquidating your account,

which may also have some tax implications.

Absolutely.

There's all kinds of restrictions that apply

for people who are abroad,

and depending on their situation.

And I've seen cases where custodian services in country,

for example, Charles Schwab used to service Italy

for many years.

And four years ago, they exited out of Italy

and they told all account holders there

that they needed to close the accounts

and move their assets someplace else.

And they gave them 90 days to do that.

So that can happen in the future

with all that's happening in the world

and different governments taking decisions.

It is always a possibility

that something like that can happen.

So it's good to have a good handle on the options out there.

And you'll probably need an advisor who was more informed

about the options out there to help you navigate through that.

And maybe even has access to more than one custodian, right?

Absolutely.

Because you don't want to have all of your eggs in a bucket

with one custodian, the rules of the game change,

and all of a sudden your advisor saying,

well, in 90 days, I can't support you and I'm so sorry.

Having a multi-custodial option

makes it a little bit more attractive.

And I think transparently, as cross-border advisors,

you kind of really have to be thinking about,

how can I get that multi-access?

Because you always have to be thinking,

I'm a fiduciary, how do I service my clients in the best way

based on where they're currently living

or potentially will move?

Yeah, absolutely.

And also advisors, some advisors are better

on some things than others, right?

And one other important consideration is

in terms of currency, right?

So a majority of advisors in the US will not hold

foreign currency for people living abroad.

Some will, I know some we work with.

So that's also an important consideration.

So if you're moving your life abroad, your portfolio

in the US is in US dollars, you'll have to account

for the currency exchange rates.

And that can put you in a disadvantage.

It is right now for a lot of Americans abroad

just because of the current administrations.

We hear dollar policy.

So in that case, it pays to research

and see if there's options for you to invest in euros

and to keep euros handily at a good exchange rate.

And maybe even buying, let's say, sovereign bonds

from different European countries that will pay in euros,

you're living in a euro, if you're living in Spain,

in Greece, Italy, any other country in the EU,

it definitely pays to examine if there's a possibility

of your custodian holding euros on your account

so they can be rarely accessible to you at a good rate

and also dividends paid to you or payments

done to you in euros, just for your own benefit.

So you won't fall behind.

Yeah, I think that's a great point, Otto.

On that point, Alex banned a little bit.

I think when we're talking about,

we have to kind of acknowledge who are we talking about.

And so I just want to take a moment to think about,

listener, who are you, what are you thinking about?

What is your kind of net worth range?

If you are kind of in that emerging wealth stage,

the most important, right, you're working on your first million,

right?

And that's what I'll call, or for the first couple hundred thousand dollars, right?

You're young, you're building wealth.

The most important thing for you at this point

is thinking about how can I access this in a low-cost way

so that my financial plan and financial future isn't eroded by fees?

And as your net worth increases,

then it makes sense to add in more complexity,

adding in different custodial options,

adding in different currency lenses, de-risking.

All of that is important,

but it's very important that you think about,

if I am in the emerging wealth category

and just focused on that first million,

I probably don't need a very complex strategy, transparently,

because it is going to cost me a lot of money,

and I could probably just put some euros or francs or whatever other currency I'm living in.

I put my emergency fund.

I hold it either locally in a local bank.

If that makes sense, and that's three to six months,

or maybe nine months of expenses,

set aside in local currency.

So I'm not having to do like some kind of crazy investment strategy.

Everyone should have that emergency fund in the local currency

that they're living in.

And then we can kind of think about a moat strategy as you build wealth.

And then I think it makes more sense to say,

okay, we may pay a premium to access a certain custodian,

because that is probably not going to be a low-cost custodian like Charles Schwab,

or maybe going to agree to pay that premium,

because now we're working on that second layer, and that's a moat.

And that, depending on your level of wealth,

you could have millions of dollars in that moat strategy,

because you're really focused on protecting the rest of your portfolio.

So that's how I think about it,

just because I don't want people listening to think,

oh my God, I don't have access to that.

How do I access that?

If you are in that emerging wealth category,

you really don't need to access it.

If we're talking about these more advanced strategies,

it is okay to add complexity as your net worth grows,

and we're trying to solve for different problems.

We're really thinking about risk in a different way,

but when that emerging wealth space,

we're not always thinking about risk in the same way.

Oh, absolutely.

And I'll give you another example,

a different example than I would currency,

but let's say in Italy, right?

In Italy, long-term capital gains are not recognized.

From ETFs are not recognized as long-term capital gains there.

They're still income.

Higher progressive tax rates than in Italy.

Yes, yes.

Even if you do for ETFs, right?

If you do stocks, it's fine.

It's still long-term gain rates there,

but if it is long-term ETF holding,

if you sell it, it's gonna get tabs in as ordinary income.

Now, a lot of people would say,

well, then you do direct indexing,

and that's certainly possible, but in some cases, right?

So we're not gonna do this really complex strategy

for just a small amount of money,

and we're gonna add all these layers of complexity

if it's not really gonna pay dividends

in the tax side, right?

So we can always add strategies,

as long as it makes sense.

It's something that is actionable, practical,

but yeah, we're not just gonna add complexity

just for the fact of adding complexity.

And ETF portfolio can work in Italy,

even if it's long-term gains are taxed

as ordinary income, it just depends on the situation.

You'll see what is a trade,

you need to see what is a trade-off

between both strategies,

and then you can get the best recommendation for the client.

Absolutely.

What are some other surprises?

Because I know there's so many surprises

when we move abroad, and again,

this is gonna be country by country.

Let me through, you have a client,

they wanna move abroad, they're doing a gap here.

What's your approach?

Do you say, you know what,

we don't have long-term plans to move abroad,

so let's just keep your accounts as they are

kind of linked on the US side.

At what point do you make that transition from,

okay, we are just exploring and hanging out in Europe

for a couple of years to, you know,

you've now had two kids, you own a house,

and it doesn't look like you're leaving Italy or Spain

or whatever country you're in.

Right, for reporting purposes,

you should update all these information

to reflect the truth, right?

And we do this, we were always recommending this

because tax reasons, right?

So let's say you're coming from a state like

California or Maryland, which are sticky states,

and they will always try to claim

that you still live in the state even two years

after you leave in some circumstances, right?

So you wanna have a record trail, right,

and not a trail, your addresses

and your information is updated

because you are living there, right?

That is the truth.

That is the truth.

So if you keep those records updated,

that's gonna be a good solid base

for good planning, good decisions,

and avoid complexity and penalties later,

if there's any kind of reporting,

any kinds of audits in the future.

And it's something that can be, you know,

what good institution is done easily.

It doesn't have to be overcomplicated.

There's tax forms, maybe to fill out

that are contained within applications.

For example, Schwab has their W9 form contained

within the application where you are.

What's the W9 form?

The W9 form is for you to certify

your Social Security or your US tax ID, right?

That is a form used.

You submit that to a custodian financial institution,

and they will use that to prove the,

show the proof to the government

that they verify that with you.

There's another one which is the W8

is for people who are not US persons,

US taxpayers, citizens, green car holders.

That is the one for a foreign person

that wants to invest in the US, for example.

And they fill out that form for the reporting purposes.

It doesn't hold them to the US tax system,

but it does the compliance work.

And those forms are really important to have them

unfil and fill out correctly,

just because if not, it can cause backup

withholding, for example, on your dividends and interests,

and it can cause other problems.

You'll get letters, you'll get annoying messages.

It's better to make sure that they're filled out correctly

from the get-go, or they're corrected

if they need to be fixed.

If you don't know how to do it,

you do need to reach out to a professional,

and they can definitely let you know

a tax professional or a cost-free financial fund.

I was thinking about the W8, right?

That's probably the really important one.

If you're a non-US person, so if you've left,

for whatever reason, you worked in the US for a while,

you have a US Social Security number

or an ITIN, and you've left,

and now we still have to keep those US adjustments.

Sometimes the retirement accounts,

and we don't wanna access us,

because even if we're living in a foreign country,

we may still have an early withdrawal penalty from the US.

So we end up getting stuck to the US system,

but it's important to understand

that we are still gonna have

the withholding considerations,

and the country that you're in,

or your country of citizenship,

there may be a treaty that can be applied here.

So getting those forms updated is really important.

Same with the W9, making sure that you have,

that it shows I'm a US person,

I'm not subject to 30% withholding

on these different situations.

Now, all that being said,

I think it's still important that custodian to custodian,

there can still be very different rules

around mandatory withholding.

So I wanna give you a minute to talk through that as well.

Sure, so for example,

there is the most common example of this,

is a child will show up currently, right?

You have IRA accounts.

If you move outside of the US,

any distribution that you do,

regardless of your income,

regardless of your situation,

it will be subject to a minimum 10% federal withholding.

No state, because you're not living in any of the 50 states,

but the federal government,

the federal amount will need to be withheld,

and that is a rule that Schwab has.

It's not a law that requires that,

but Schwab has internally decided

that they're gonna withhold 10%,

and then even applies to Roth conversions.

So if you're a person who's doing a Roth conversion strategy,

and you're moving abroad for a time,

do be mindful that 10% of that conversion will be withheld

for federal tax purposes.

So that's a pretty common and annoying

to say the least right.

Super annoying,

because you don't actually owe the super, super annoying.

Because we have this conversation all the time.

It's just, it's a big deal.

You'll get it back, but it's like,

it's taken away from that conversion, right?

And...

There was a loss of opportunity,

and I used to work for Schwab internally.

I always said, well, they can pay in and out of the way.

And now as an advisor, I always tell them,

well, how about if we pay them from the taxable account,

they still won't budge,

but unfortunately, those are the rules right now.

So you'll need to navigate those.

But let's talk a little bit about,

we have all these annoying things

about investing in the US.

So why would a US expat,

if someone who's living abroad in a different currency,

why would they continue to even be interested

in continuing to keep their US financial institutions?

Well, let's say that simple reasons,

like just you made this transition now, right?

As an expat,

and you have all these savings from your previous jobs,

you still want to make sure that they grow

so they can provide financial independence in the future.

So having them visible to you,

so you can make trades and keep an eye on them,

or have an advisor manage them for you,

it's quite important, right?

You know, they are your lifetime savings,

so you wanna keep track of those, right?

So a lot of folks will forget,

and this even happens,

people who stay here and never go abroad, right?

They forget about their old 401ks,

their all retirement accounts, there are four or three V's,

oh yeah, I think I have something there.

And time passes, and it's really unfortunate

when you see accounts that haven't been rebalanced in years,

or they haven't even been invested,

they just been getting a very small yield of interest

in those accounts, and those are missed opportunities.

So depending on your situation, of course,

and your plans, it is worth your time

being intentional about your assets in the US,

and making sure that they're being invested.

While you're in Europe,

if you're planning to stay there for the rest of your life,

that's fine also.

They can also be a source of wealth for you.

The US markets are still the more productive

and growth markets out there.

Still to this day,

international has been getting cut out in the last year's,

right, international markets,

but still from a diversification standpoint,

it is really important that even though you live in Europe,

you still have investments in the US,

if you're a US person.

If you're not a US person,

then it just depends on your situation.

Okay, I'm gonna expand way more on your answer,

because I think we are missing some really important factors.

One, you're still tied to the US tax system.

You are gonna have all, if you're a US person,

you are still a US tax resident, right?

You're still filing your worldwide income,

even if none of your income comes from the US.

And quite honestly, again, for talking about,

especially my favorite, my emerging wealth people, right?

You're working on your first million, first three million,

or you're going into retirement with, you know,

three million or less.

Less, I consider you kind of that emerging wealth category.

And for those individuals, cost, right?

And in a lot of countries, right,

we have very simplified tax systems,

and it's the US that's the more complex

and more expensive filing.

And I remember when I worked at PWC,

and I'm sure in own firm with emerging tax,

you see this as well, right?

You're going through foreign brokerage statements,

highlighting, calculating,

right, that's very expensive to do that type of reporting,

to make it match what is required on the US side.

the US is one of the cheapest places in the world to invest,

right?

If we look at average ETF expenses in Europe,

one, one and a half, we see that all the time.

Why don't you just go and buy a older diversified ETF,

and you can access that at a fraction of the cost, right?

We see Vanguard funds all the time at 0.03%

compared to 1.5%.

Even if we take in a professional advisor

is going to charge you more.

Now we're getting professional guidance

at the same cost of what it would be abroad, right?

So that's, I think, a huge factor for a lot of people.

And then the P-FIC issue, right?

US citizens cannot just go down to the local bank,

one, we've got FACA, they might not let you,

unless you've got $5 million,

they're probably not going to be rolling out the welcome wagon

to say, oh yeah, come open up an account.

They'll open up a bank account for you, right?

They will say, yeah, you want to cash it out,

you want to check in the savings account.

No problem, here it is.

It's very different than the US, right?

There's no free checking anymore.

And most of the time abroad we're paying,

banking is a service that you now pay for.

So we have to think about that, right?

And then if you want an investment account, again,

if you are emerging wealth,

it's going to be very hard for you to find a foreign institution

that is going to be willing to jump through

all of the compliance hoops to serve you US person, right?

They have a different compliance standards.

And we're seeing that, right, with a cost, right?

If you're a US person, the price is this

versus if you're a not person.

And then on top of that, you have to find an advisor still

abroad who can still navigate all of those considerations.

Of what can you actually buy?

Because if they just start buying investments,

like they do for all the other expats or all the other,

you know, non-US people,

we have made very complex tax accounting choices, right?

Maybe now we're in P-fix.

There's we have to hold on P-fix.

Listen to that episode.

We have complex tax reporting requirements

and we're going to be killed by compliance costs.

And fees.

So again, I think there is a that moving money abroad

makes sense in that first emerging wealth phase.

I don't think it really makes sense

because we're really focused on low fees

and trying to do stuff in abroad, make it more complex.

That's something to just be aware of.

It doesn't mean you can't have as part of your considerations.

Maybe you want to buy some, you know, local stocks, right?

And especially if you're in Europe,

you want to hold some individual companies

have really liked Siemens Energy.

I really want to hold it in Germany.

Okay, you can still do that.

That doesn't cost tax issues.

But maybe that's just one aspect of your overall portfolio.

We still have kind of our core portfolio over here.

Something to consider.

I think I agree.

Everything you said,

it's definitely sound to your situation,

to the families who are in the situation.

That's why it worth getting advice.

It's worth getting a thinking partner

in the form of a cross-border financial planner or advisor.

Just to duck things and just to cause the pros and cons

of different strategies and make sure

that you're taking care of.

And you can get the best results possible

and the best outcomes for sure.

Oh, diversification.

You can still have very diverse portfolio

even if it's held in the US, right?

Just because it's held in the US

doesn't mean you can't access international markets.

And what we've seen in the international markets, right?

I think it's the last decade,

performed terribly.

No one wanted international.

Everyone wants international today, right?

Like we can't get enough international.

This is why diversification is important.

We have winners and losers every year, every quarter,

every decade.

We need to have that diversification.

You can get that in the US.

You could also get it abroad.

It's not access of where your account is being held

that you wouldn't be able to access additional diversification.

Okay, Otto, we are over time.

I think we had so many other things that we could talk about.

So we'll have to get you back on the podcast.

One more point I want to make.

A pet peeve of mine when working with new clients

is oftentimes they will come to me.

And I think you've seen this as well.

They will come to me after moving abroad

and trying to work with their local US advisor

who said, oh, it's great that you're moving abroad.

I will just continue to manage your US investment account.

No problem.

I will just manage your US investments.

It doesn't matter that you live in Spain.

They're just going to be in the US.

So don't worry about that.

And they don't understand that now that you live

in another country, you're also a tax resident

in that country.

And so just like what you were saying about Italy,

how you're holding assets matters and changes,

what you can and can't hold, how it's going to be taxed locally.

And back in the US, that's a very complex dance.

And something that on a case by case basis needs to be discussed.

And ideally, before you've moved abroad,

because if you just work with that advisor,

well, you're moving and setting up

and then you realize it's a little bit too late.

Oh my god, they actually don't know what they're doing.

And they have no idea how anything in Italy works.

And I've just gotten my first tax return and ouch.

That sucks.

I think it's really important that we just acknowledge

that when you choose your advisor, even if you love your advisor

and he was absolutely amazing for optimizing everything

while you lived in New York, he might not know.

And he doesn't have other clients.

And he's not thinking about how is Italian tax law

developing over the next five years?

Because he can't, right?

Unless he's got more than one client

and he has time and capacity to really, really think about it.

And that is exactly why we started the advisor platform

because we really wanted to find

who are the advisors in the space who are waking up

and thinking about it every single day, just like me,

who are passionate about it and who are committed

to becoming experts and acting as fiduciaries

for their clients, meaning we act in the best interest

and we're not just trying to sell a product

that may or may not solve a problem.

That's super important to me.

Otto, my last question for you today is,

in your work as a cross-border financial planner,

as a cross-border tax expert,

I would love to give you an opportunity to just talk through

where you've really been able to kind of shine

if you have a client example or kind of a theme

that comes through in servicing your clients.

So just recently I helped the client was going through the VORS

and they needed, they were abroad,

they got married in the States,

they were living in another country

and they were getting the worst in that other country.

So the VORS process you are abroad is very different

from a domestic process.

In the process, there was a division of assets

of a retirement plan where Mike was still a participant

of that plan and because it is a US retirement plan

under a law called ERISA, right?

And I always forget the words in that agreement

but basically because of those laws,

there needed to be a legal process in the US

to the to the idea assets.

It just couldn't be done automatically

with a DORS decree from that country.

So I went, I researched the case,

I got all the documents from the client

and I started reaching out.

I first had to go into the law,

make sure I understood what I was doing,

establish a legal nexus for the marriage

and also for the retirement assets.

And then reach out an attorney

in that particular state where there was a legal nexus.

And then have a consultation with them,

make sure I had all, you know,

make sure that the client can get all that she needed

in this case and taken care of by that attorney.

And I talked to another one also,

make sure I did my due diligence.

And then I introduced that attorney that I picked

to my client and then that attorney helped client

go through the process because it's a very complicated process.

They need to present it in a state court

so that the DORS decree can be domesticated.

That's the term that they use

and it takes additional costs and additional time.

I'm a problem solver.

That's what I am at heart.

And I love solving problems and helping people.

So when I am able to really go beyond

and make the calls and do the research

and get a solution for a client

that's really something special and fulfilling for me.

So that's a good example.

And I would say like the one thing I do know about you

is you're the type of person who always goes above and beyond.

You always go one step further that is required

and you are looking at it from so many different angles.

And I think about this case like with the DORS,

this is not something you can solve with chat GBT, right?

We're thinking, okay, this client now lives here.

What are their citizenship?

What state were they married?

What states did they live in?

And all of those factors play this huge role.

Who's a lawyer that I can find to help?

And I think so much of our work,

what I'm realizing is it's really about our network.

Who we know to solve all these complex problems

and who has capacity to actually make it happen.

So Otto, on that note, thank you so much for sharing

that story.

I think that's a great example that highlights

the complexity of some of our work and the curiosity

and the kind of keen problem solving that we love, right?

I always think of crossword as a very clean of every puzzle,

every person's case is a puzzle and you got to solve.

So thank you so much for joining us today

on the Passport 12 podcast.

We'll talk to you soon.

Absolutely, thank you for having me.

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