“..After the concert, as we received applause, I closed the piano lid, and from that moment, I decided never to play classical music again.”

In this episode we get to know phd student Alessandra Bossa. We talk about her hybrid instrument, using body presence in performance and making the sound “untraceable”. 

Alessandra Bossa is an electronic artist from Italy active in the duo O-Jana. She’s also a teacher and phd student at UiA.

[Automatic captions by Autotekst using OpenAI Whisper V3. May contain recognition errors.]

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the podcast Artificial Art.

[SPEAKER_00]: My name is Steinar Jeffs.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a musician and a music teacher.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in this podcast, I'll be interviewing guests about technology and creativity.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll start now, I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the podcast, Alessandra Bosa.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're an electronic artist from Italy.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're active in the duo OJANA, and you're also a teacher and a PhD student at the university, or you're just about to get started on your PhD.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, correct.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to start this podcast with a quote from you, which goes something like this.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's Göteborg, 2010.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was performing with a classical music ensemble playing Franz Schubert's Forellenquintett.

[SPEAKER_00]: The sound was beautiful, flowing, and everyone played magnificently.

[SPEAKER_00]: The venue was a castle with marvelous acoustics.

[SPEAKER_00]: After the concert, as we received applause, I closed the piano lid, and from that moment I decided never to play classical music again.

[SPEAKER_00]: What happened, Alessandra?

[SPEAKER_01]: Ha ha ha!

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, how poetic I am.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what happened?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was a very special moment, actually.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the way I describe, you know, that moment, the environment, everything was so nice and the sound, it was so nice because it was.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it was something inside me that started to change.

[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, not in that moment, but before.

[SPEAKER_02]: I felt myself into a cage, a beautiful cage.

[SPEAKER_02]: Classical music was a beautiful cage.

[SPEAKER_02]: I spent so much time practicing and have a lot of rehearsals and spent time on the piano.

[SPEAKER_02]: Really, it was an effort with my mind and my body that I remember very well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And not easy to handle, to be honest.

[SPEAKER_02]: I felt that I was not a classical pianist at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really spent too much time for the goal that I was able to achieve.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was not Marta Argerich, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had a talent and also a lot of discipline.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it was not enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I felt that there was something else that I really loved to explore.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I decided at that time I was at the Academy of Music and Drama in Gothenburg.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was Anders Schiermin and other musicians.

[SPEAKER_02]: I decided to start to improvise and...

[SPEAKER_02]: and be more free, you know, or see the piano in another way, because I was very tired about that mindset, discipline, and the studies, everything was in the grid, and I'm not in the grid at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you felt that your personality had a different place in the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But for example, that's very, very easy.

[SPEAKER_02]: I move a lot when I play, when I perform.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember my maestro, my teacher say all the time, OK, I don't move, breathe, focus.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's correct, because in classical music you have to converge your energy.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I felt that it was something that I need to diverge, you know, to open up, to make the piano my sacred garden, something different, an environment, and not only a tool to use, a tool to use, yeah, an instrument, you know, but something else.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was something that I was envisioning.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea at that time what was it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now it starts to become clear.

[SPEAKER_02]: But at that time there was, okay, there is something more here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: behind the piano.

[SPEAKER_00]: How did you begin to improvise?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, actually I started to play inside the piano with the chords, touching the chords, finding something that was microtonal and mixing together with some field recording that at that time I even don't remember, there was the iPad maybe, something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: that I used to gather listening and playing with the piano and after that the first approach maybe it was with the garage band take some sound and started to manipulate and after playing inside the piano recording I started really to be creative and have

[SPEAKER_02]: At that time, I had no absolutely idea about Dove or Ableton that now I use a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just, yes, just the idea of manipulating sound.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was so fascinating.

[SPEAKER_00]: Particularly sound that piqued your interest and not like improvising with chords or melodies or like a jazz context or something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, because I didn't, I escaped other grids, you know, different grids.

[SPEAKER_02]: I say, okay, let's really go out, let's offset.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because actually I have studied jazz, but also in a jazz environment, I found exactly kind of the same...

[SPEAKER_00]: A cage again?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, another cage.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I said, no, guys, that's not this.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's one of my problems.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was always in the middle.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was not an electronic musician, not a classical one, not a jazz one, but always in the middle.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was also a problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also when I... Maybe I will talk about the last album that I recorded with my duo.

[SPEAKER_02]: That one, it was not easy to classify, you know, what is this, is it avant-pop, is it electronic music or is it jazz, because there are maybe complex chords inside.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, always into the process, always looking for something, always this movement, internal movement that make me move from one place to another.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess you doing a PhD is kind of a step in this process of finding an identity and finding a unique voice and either making a new cage or escaping it, maybe?

[SPEAKER_02]: Correct.

[SPEAKER_00]: What kind of a cage do you find yourself in right now?

[SPEAKER_02]: OK, to be honest, right now, I don't feel that I have a cage.

[SPEAKER_02]: It could be with a PhD, you know, because academia, it could be also a big cage.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I will put my effort to...

[SPEAKER_02]: to try to find the verticality of knowledgement.

[SPEAKER_02]: When you know something in depth, you really have this vertical movement.

[SPEAKER_02]: You go deep to understand the process.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think in the academia and the research, you can do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I really need.

[SPEAKER_02]: But again, I will try to escape the greed.

[SPEAKER_02]: I will try to do... Directly go to the point.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's what I am.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to show myself as a performer, as a musician, as artist.

[SPEAKER_02]: I cannot one more time...

[SPEAKER_02]: fall of a path that I already know because for me it's kind of it's not an attractor you know I become I get bored about and I won't escape I don't have so much time you know I'm not so young anymore

[SPEAKER_00]: A thing I'm thinking about is if you come from the cage of classical music where you're supposed to interpret old music and maybe you're supposed to interpret it a certain way and that feels like a cage and then you go over to

[SPEAKER_00]: jazz music which is kind of freer but also have these idioms you have to adhere to like play this scale over this chord or you're supposed to use motific embellishment and stuff like that and then you move over to the live electronics world which is more based of non-sound manipulation

[SPEAKER_00]: but also has its rules to follow and maybe the rules are more of the kind that you're not supposed to do what classical music or not supposed to do what jazz music does.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's perhaps a cage of itself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, with the live electronics I can say...

[SPEAKER_02]: is a kind of, it's a new field.

[SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of stuff that we as a musician, as a teacher, in educational part, we have to explore.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm very, and here I talk again about verticality.

[SPEAKER_02]: To play in the electroacoustic field is a so complex process.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what you have to study is actually...

[SPEAKER_02]: It's exactly like in classical music or in jazz.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have to really spend a lot of time to try to manipulate the sound, have this kind of speed of activity when you are on stage to go very fast from one field to another, to be able to improvise.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you need really a lot of...

[SPEAKER_02]: tools, you need to know very well your instruments.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you need also the flow.

[SPEAKER_02]: So playing an acoustic instrument, for example, like a piano, like your voice, guitar, together with the electronics, you have two different domains and they had to become one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's only with your practice, your effort and your strategies that you are able to put together everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: What I suggest to my students and what we do actually together, especially when we improvise, you know, during, for example, Punkt Ensemble, that is an ensemble that they have, they're supposed to improvise totally free.

[SPEAKER_02]: They started to improvise.

[SPEAKER_02]: After that, we talk, we analyse really in the details.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is so much in the details.

[SPEAKER_02]: We say, OK, where are the lines, the climax, where you're going, the acceleration, the stretching of the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: We talk a lot about space and time.

[SPEAKER_02]: how they interact with each other, etc.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everything is very analytic.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I also say, and this is John Coltrane style, I also say that when you play, you are just playing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Forget everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have to spend a lot of time talking about analysis and the technique before and after, but not during our playing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Our playing, we are playing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is an exercise, I think.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exercise is so important.

[SPEAKER_00]: Keep the practice in the practice room and then the performance in the performances.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess what you're touching upon is the importance of developing a craft.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we have a foundation to build your artistic expression

[SPEAKER_00]: How important would you say that the craft you have gotten from the classical side of music, how important is that in your expression nowadays?

[SPEAKER_02]: was my imprinting so everything I now I go through has to pass in that process so I needed

[SPEAKER_02]: what I need when I start to play or I have a new tools for example now I have a new sampler and I'm so excited about this because I'm really spending a lot of time and this is new tools

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm trying to really understand the tools and after try to be free.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I try to balance all the time, going from one party to another.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what I do is try to practice also in doing very short sonic object.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because when you have to exercise with a short sonic object, you are able to see the result, to achieve a complexity inside that sound.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is so important in electronic music.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, our ears get tired very fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: We need novelty all the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: But this novelty needs also meaning.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: A short sonic object.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Could you explain what that is?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's correct.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I will do an example.

[SPEAKER_02]: Usually when we improvise, especially with the electro-acoustic music, what we start to do is this long field recording that very slow they move in the time, you know?

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's very nice, I mean.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if we decided, and that is just for practicing, you know, something...

[SPEAKER_02]: If we decided to have a short moment where I have to create a sound that has a complexity, so it means that as an attack that is meaningful, that maybe is going with the climax and become dynamically very forte, or maybe no, it's just decaying inside the silence.

[SPEAKER_02]: And after that, go back only in one frequency.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm starting to create a composition, a very short composition.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to make it easy, a process that is extremely difficult.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because when we improvise with electronic music and with electroacoustic, we have to know the tools.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have to jump from one parameter to another.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have to think about the dynamics, the mixing of the sound.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the sound is never just one.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's always a different layering.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a complex layering.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that is a kind of, it could be a part of my PhD, the educational part, I can say, of my PhD.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I can focus about this, because I found it very useful and also fascinating.

[SPEAKER_00]: How short is a short sonic object?

[SPEAKER_02]: It could be.

[SPEAKER_02]: Usually I say, okay, let's try to play five seconds.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not more than that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But give me something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Try to really make your sound...

[SPEAKER_00]: alive full of life so tell me if I got this right it's usual in electronic live music to do these long stretches of evolving sound maybe like a pad or something where you tweak like the EQ and you want to focus on the opposite I guess a more short amount of time and with more information happening in that amount of time

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's more, as we say, gestural.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was also... That's the reason, because actually I'm here in Kristiansand, because Jan Bang, he has a lot this kind of weighty play.

[SPEAKER_02]: He kind of never stay in the same path, this very long field.

[SPEAKER_02]: But...

[SPEAKER_02]: He is very gestural and everything he does when he's playing is meaningful and very high quality of sound.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I really like it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I would love to evolve a technique.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to envision something that is also good for the students and for me, of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a student always.

[SPEAKER_00]: How would you practice such a thing?

[SPEAKER_02]: You practice such a thing mostly, I think, like a composer.

[SPEAKER_02]: You decide which kind of sound you want to use and you try to process in a different way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Example.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have my piano and I have several controllers and a sound box, for example, that I used to have during the performance.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can use the vocals.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what I can do in five seconds, I can maybe play a piano, a gesture with a piano.

[SPEAKER_02]: At the same time, I can record it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And while I'm recording, I go inside the piano and play a chord.

[SPEAKER_02]: When I, after played chord, I stop the recording and I try to stretch.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I put an effect and touch or play the sound box and have just one frequency with my vocals.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this process to do everything in just five seconds has such a complexity.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we don't have to play all the time in a so complex way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love a very, how can I say, when you have not so many elements and you evolve them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But this approach, it could be a very good practice

[SPEAKER_02]: to feel more confident with your instrument, hybrid instrument that you are creating.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a kind of technically difficult thing to do, just physically speaking with your hands, that you have to move your hands from the piano to the inside of the piano to the parameters on your sound device.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to probably practice it just to get the motor skills to be able to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in the performance, then you have to know it...

[SPEAKER_00]: at such a precise way that you can improvise intuitively and then the hands just move.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, the details, you know, the details of, yes, we pass through these frequencies and we have to dance, we have to choose which one we prefer in that moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that moment usually, it could be just one second and escape from that world and going back or create a very metallic sound, you know, with a lot of noise, very distorted.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, that's really, really, we have so many possibilities.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's just the process that, yeah, challenging.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to play a piece of music that you made.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a live improvisation with a guy called Kristian Isaksen.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a six minute long piece.

[SPEAKER_00]: track but i've fast forwarded to about two minutes and i thought we could listen and see a bit and and i can ask you some questions about it okay here we go

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a do I think called Before Without and a song called Soul Stepper.

[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, the listeners can't see the video that we just saw, but you can find it on YouTube.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then you'll see two people in a studio, one with a kind of electronic drum set playing

[SPEAKER_00]: And you have an acoustic piano and two or three MIDI keyboards and a violin bow of sorts.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And a box with a pole on it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what that is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we can hear some evolving pads and we can hear like a drum and bass or djent kind of pattern going on in the drum section which acts as a kind of angry contrast to the like heavenly pads going on there.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was really cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you head over to the microphone and you sing or gesture some lyrics?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or would you call it lyrics?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, calling lyrics.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, sometimes I really spend a lot of time deciding the sound of that language that doesn't exist.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, because I took a lot from my dialect, from the English, Norwegian, Scandinavian.

[SPEAKER_02]: sprook or other sounds that I catch and I try to emulate but it's not a lyrics there is not a meaning it's a meta meaning but it's not a specific

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's more about the sound.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the sound of your voice when making those syllables.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in the video, you can also see that you have a very presence with your body in your performance.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you're moving a lot, as you were talking about, you were allowed to in the classical world now.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can just break free.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can move.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like a dance.

[SPEAKER_00]: And how important is that for you to express yourself?

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, it's so important.

[SPEAKER_02]: I decided that, okay, no cages anymore, so let's dance when I'm on stage.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I was now thinking that actually right now when I see the video, say, okay, it seems so easy.

[SPEAKER_02]: It seems that we are playing and we are having fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: But actually at the same time I remember when we were recording that it was just okay, one take, let's go.

[SPEAKER_02]: We started to improvise and we see what happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was controlling a lot of different things also because in that video you can see that the piano is very close to all the Christian drums and the cymbals, etc.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was putting a lot of attention about the sound going inside the microphone, so you have to close and open when you need, the compression of the sound, so there are really a lot of things to control.

[SPEAKER_02]: But to find the balance between performing, be free and totally okay, now it's time to perform.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the controlling part is very challenging.

[SPEAKER_00]: How does it then feel to perform when you have to have control over so many aspects?

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like you can get into the flow state?

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that, yes, that's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like in classical music, when you have, you know, in classical music, you cannot absolutely, you must not make mistakes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to control a lot yourself, your breathing, your movement and everything is so based on the details.

[SPEAKER_02]: Here it's exactly actually the same but you can do mistakes.

[SPEAKER_02]: The unexpected part is welcome, that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the lines that you have to be able to manage to underline, like a conductor, are so many.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can say it's not easy, especially if you want to use also your voice that is a part of your body.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you get sick.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you, you know, it's like you feel that you are naked in such a way.

[SPEAKER_02]: And while you are naked, you are also too... Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ah, put so much effort, yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And to understand how you wanted that sound, you know, and not make the machine going, but you decided what the machine has to do together with the external instrument.

[SPEAKER_00]: As a guitar player, I've had a lot of technical gadgets like pedals and amplifiers and stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's always the thing that's gotten me most nervous before concerts.

[SPEAKER_00]: Will the patch cables hold up?

[SPEAKER_00]: What if something is wrong?

[SPEAKER_00]: What really happens when I push this button and this button?

[SPEAKER_00]: I really have to feel like I'm in control of all the devices to feel free and not be really nervous.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I can imagine when you have that many different devices that you do on stage, it has to be difficult to get the appropriate level of control to feel...

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And actually in our duo, Before Without with Christian, not only we have a very complex routing, so he also can manage sometimes my vocals or my synth, or even my synth becomes something else because he uses it as a MIDI controller.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the unexpected is 100% unexpected, so everything can happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you have to be ready to say, okay, now it's something else.

[SPEAKER_02]: My tool is transforming, it's transmuted, and I have to use it in a different way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because there is also this challenge.

[SPEAKER_02]: How you touch the instruments.

[SPEAKER_02]: When I touch the piano, there is my technique, the way that you play the piano.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is totally different when you touch controller.

[SPEAKER_02]: When you use and you play the sound box that I was playing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is complex.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is really difficult, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not only challenging.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's difficult because jumping from one approach to another constantly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Christian, for example, he's a very nerd musician.

[SPEAKER_02]: Very nerd.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he goes so fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes when we play together, it's a problem because with the routing, he says, OK, so we put this there under the cable, under the MIDI controller.

[SPEAKER_02]: I say, OK, go, go, go.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not so fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need much more time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not so nerd, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have to remember what is going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: For him, it's much easier.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when we really play together, we are able to have fun after a while, but it requires a lot of work, I can say.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it requires trust, I would think, as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a lot of trust.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can control your instruments to some degree.

[SPEAKER_00]: In your PhD work, you're also going to experiment with artificial intelligence, you know, and that will be just another factor of uncertainty, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exponential.

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you envision AI expanding the creative possibilities in your work?

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: For now, you say, yes, you say correct, envisioning, and it's really at the beginning of the process.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just so fascinated by that word.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that has so big potential.

[SPEAKER_02]: And during these years, you know, in the future, but the future, I mean, next year, it will be also different and can open totally other paths.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had this vision of being in a certain way maybe transcultural.

[SPEAKER_02]: What does it mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: What I understood for now is that we have two different types of AI.

[SPEAKER_02]: One is symbolic, so it's based on the Western scale, musically speaking.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the other one is based on audio, so frequencies.

[SPEAKER_02]: When I saw that we can use frequencies, I said, OK, that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we can use microtonals.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can use something that, for example, recording something that I can take from folk music with instruments that has different kind of scales.

[SPEAKER_02]: and use that kind of, how can I say, use that parameter maybe with vocals or with other instruments or doing exactly the opposite, collaborate with someone that

[SPEAKER_02]: is now in Laos or in Asia, somewhere, I don't know where, and find something that for me sounds very new with instrument that I use like a piano or synth and, you know, blend the different sonic words.

[SPEAKER_02]: That I really would love to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea right now how to do, but I see that there's a lot of potential there, a lot of new possibilities that is extremely interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what I will do, I will go around asking people that are already using AI and try myself to experiment and integrate inside myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we will see during this year what happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: You'll probably like one of my next podcast episodes, which is going to feature one Italian guy called Valerio Velardo, and a guy from France called Jerome Nika, who's developed a software called Dicey2.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which I think you will find really fascinating.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can integrate into Ableton as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of easy to get started with.

[SPEAKER_02]: Perfect.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll show you afterwards maybe.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, great.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are different possibilities when it comes to...

[SPEAKER_00]: generative, the generative versions of AI or the information retrieval kinds of AI or the symbolic ones that you're talking about, so-called good old fashioned AI.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's been around for a long time, the symbolic versions.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you find generative AI fascinating or interesting in some way, like Suno or Udio, where you can do a text prompt and get a full music piece out of it?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I found very fascinating and very fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, it's like, okay, let's say, chat GPT, for example, is, you know, you can have a lot of writing already done.

[SPEAKER_02]: But of course, it's not enough, because it's the process important, how much you interact with this machine that is so fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that we're scared a little bit because it's fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also automation in itself is not a big problem if we start to navigate it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that AI will help us to announce and to find, yes, to have a new vision.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, artists for sure will find a way, a different way,

[SPEAKER_02]: The big challenge is to go fast because the machine is so fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that it will change everything in another way that for now we are maybe not able to really see.

[SPEAKER_02]: but in a very short time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think a machine can create art on itself?

[SPEAKER_02]: A machine can create art.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's very philosophical.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: What is art and what is art to you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: What is a machine?

[SPEAKER_02]: We see the technology as something that is detached from the human being.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's the human being that did the machine.

[SPEAKER_02]: And here, maybe it's very general, but we can say what is nature and what is not.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe something that is there, is already there, you know, generation that they born right now, they will have the technology and the domain of a technical domain.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would be totally different from my experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would be something else.

[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe for them it would be nature.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because they will use like we use a spoon.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see that the technologies are so detached.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's part of human being, to be honest.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's the human being trying to evolve.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, go forward.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Technology optimists would say that AI is like humanity's baby.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we're trying to raise our baby right now in its infant stages.

[SPEAKER_00]: And after a while, that baby will grow up and will die, you know, but our baby lives on.

[SPEAKER_02]: that's very fascinating but you know also if we think about the concept of memory how we memorize I don't know 100 years ago was totally different the concept of memory and memorizing in general now we are putting all our data and our memory in something that is collective so something is starting to change maybe in the future it will be

[SPEAKER_02]: collective intelligence or memory or it would be something else that i'm not able to see right now i i really there is this is such of intuition you know i just feel that it's not detached yeah so um back to the original question can a machine create art then the answer is

[SPEAKER_02]: The answer is yes, with the help of the person that is collaborating with the machine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you have to have a human in the loop.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Does it have to be?

[SPEAKER_02]: For now, yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: For now, yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure about the future.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, maybe it could be.

[SPEAKER_00]: When the baby AI grows up?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he will start also with the conscious and, you know, that's very complex and philosophical.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have the tools maybe to talk about this, but yeah, it's very interesting argumentation, argument, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But for now, you're just in general interested in seeking novelty and being curious, exploring, and this seems like a cool thing to explore.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the basis of your exploration.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, and talk a lot with people that are experts, people that have a verticality about that tool, about that domain.

[SPEAKER_00]: For now, you have to dig wide and then you can dig deep and you find the thing that seems interesting to you, I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: Could you tell us a bit about your PhD project?

[SPEAKER_02]: My PhD project, yes, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: The title, it could be The Untraceable Sound.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure, but why untraceable?

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly for all the stuff that we were talking about, I have a sound that can come from the piano, from my vocals, and after that I manipulate, I try to transmute, doing something else and use it,

[SPEAKER_02]: uh as a frequency in an in another environment or change the space of that sound um make it really create this ambiguity also during the performance that when you see me on stage and i'm playing you don't know if i'm using my vocals if i'm using ai if i'm playing the piano to get is a scene to that one is a field recording is a what is this you know so something that

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that is untraceable.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it will be also... And to achieve this sound that is untraceable, you have to pass through the process.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the educational part is...

[SPEAKER_02]: probably it would be okay how we can practice this how we can arrive how we can with our speed of activity perform in a way that we are constantly able to evolve our sound do choices

[SPEAKER_02]: Composing is in that moment, you know, because improvisation is exactly that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to try.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have to play there.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to learn to compose instantaneously.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's correct.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's important that the sound is untraceable.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're not supposed to know if it comes from this keyboard, that keyboard, the AI, your voice.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why is that important?

[SPEAKER_02]: For me, I don't know if it's important or not.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just...

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that I feel that when I play, I want to become a multi-organism.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just one thing, it's like a cell, you know, something organic that starts to move.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have this vision that is not to me with the machine and with the piano, but it's just one thing that has started to create sound.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so maybe in this case, machine can create together with me and we are just one, a part of a process.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's my vision.

[SPEAKER_02]: How I will do, I'm not sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: I will move forward.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in the process, as always.

[SPEAKER_00]: When you're in the audience and you're listening to an electronic artist, do you find yourself sitting and analyzing which sounds are coming out and trying to trace where they come from?

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just enjoy.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if I found an artist that I like, I like it because I can... And this is something that we can recognize very easily.

[SPEAKER_02]: After three seconds, when an artist starts to play, you really recognize, okay, this artist spent really a lot of time...

[SPEAKER_02]: finding his sound, because it's the result of a big process.

[SPEAKER_02]: If the process was long and you spend really a lot of time, you will see when you are in the audience, you will recognize, wow, that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe some music that I don't like, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it doesn't matter is the impact of that performance.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's very important.

[SPEAKER_00]: The reason I ask is since you're yourself...

[SPEAKER_00]: find it important that the sound is untraceable I was thinking maybe that is because you continuously are sitting analyzing the traces of other people's sound and it's like ah that sound definitely came from that keyboard and that software and that synth you know and it's like I don't want that from myself so I want the sound to be untraceable but that isn't the case you're just enjoying yourself

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, at the end, yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: As we say before, before the performance, a lot of analysis, a lot of studies and blah, blah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But after, you have to play.

[SPEAKER_02]: You just play.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what one hopes for at least.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that easy to make it happen every time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_00]: And as an audience as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I find myself analyzing other people's performances, like in terms of harmony or improvisation or whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what I want is to be just entirely...

[SPEAKER_00]: entertained you know but that doesn't always happen so that's that that's probably a part of the untraceable thing yeah

[SPEAKER_00]: You want to be just an entire organism from which the sound emerges.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sounds cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're also currently involved in developing a live electronics course at the university.

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you see the role of education shaping the next generation of artists who are blending traditional instruments with modern technology?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, very important.

[SPEAKER_02]: And here it's so important to have a community of practicing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because we have to practice together.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes I found some students that they know much more about a doll, about a tool, much more than me.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm learning from there.

[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe they have a lack of talking about composition.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's just, you know, we kind of help each other to find a way to be artists, to be performers.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's very, very important.

[SPEAKER_02]: And with the new technologies, I need students.

[SPEAKER_02]: I needed a new generation to say to me, okay, what is going on, guys?

[SPEAKER_02]: What we can do with this new stuff?

[SPEAKER_02]: And they are faster than me, of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm so fascinated by the fact that we really can create something together.

[SPEAKER_02]: So in the educational part, I think, yes, to create a community, it's so important step.

[SPEAKER_02]: So important.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are probably some students that are more used to sitting in their own bedrooms all night and grinding on their own productions.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think it's important to get outside, meet other people and be a part of the community?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that, and not only, but, you know, with the new technologies, we can create community also with people so far away.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this, wow, it's amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I can really see what people in, musicians in Japan are doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe, okay, asking to them and their approach.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's much more than important.

[SPEAKER_02]: This individuality in music, the solo performance, you know, has to pass also through process that is shared one with the others.

[SPEAKER_02]: all the time and also in a different field you know for example for me it's a so important interaction with the classical musician let's live remix the classical with the songwriting department jazz department so create this kind of interaction and have a different experience yeah

[SPEAKER_00]: it's it's the start of the semester right now yeah and there are a lot of aspiring and new musicians coming to the university do you have any advice to give them on how they should conduct themselves and what they should do to get the career they want yeah the career they want um

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, first of all, just choose what you want to do, but be curious and explorative for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: And about the electronic musician, don't be scared.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you are at the beginning especially, don't be scared about technology.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just try to be poetic.

[SPEAKER_02]: from the beginning.

[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe don't use so complex stuff, but start with step by step and be poetic.

[SPEAKER_02]: And be poetic means for me to...

[SPEAKER_02]: to really start to create something that is touched for you and is meaningful.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, ask to other people, ask to the teacher and be really attentive and curious and present and active.

[SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming, Alexandra.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pleasure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was very nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.