Shownotes
Most people think perfectionists are super type A, organized, immaculate, always put together. Would you be surprised that that is hardly ever the case. You may be suffering from one of the three types of perfectionism and not even know it.
Listen in as I talk with coach Nicole Baker Holleman about the 3 types of perfectionism, what they positive traits are and how to combat the negative ones.
Drink of the week….Balanced Perfection Manhattan
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Julie Brown:
Nicole Baker Holleman
Transcripts
In 2010, I started seeing a therapist.
2
:You know, now as I sit here,
I think everybody should have
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:a therapist, but back then, I
didn't do it of my own accord.
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:I did it when an ear, nose and throat
specialist, who upon looking at my
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:polyp, ravaged vocal gourds told me
that I needed to see a therapist.
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:To get my anxiety under control,
or I might never talk again.
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:Welcome to episode 1
65 of this shit works.
8
:A podcast dedicated to all
things, networking, relationship
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:building and business development.
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:I'm your host, Julie Brown.
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:Speaker author and networking coach.
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:And today I'm joined by Nicole Baker,
Holoman, a coach who helps high achievers,
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:ditch, perfectionism, and in doing so
allow them to start achieving their goals.
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:You know, you might be thinking,
well, what do vocal cord polyps and
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:perfectionism have to do with each other?
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:Well, Part of my work with my
therapist included keeping a
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:journal of all the things that
stressed me out on a daily basis.
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:A portion of my sessions were
then dedicated to going through
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:the journal and talking about why
these things were stressing me out.
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:A few months after I started working
with the therapist, she brought in a
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:specialist to assist with my therapy,
because at that point she was clinically
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:diagnosing me with perfectionist OCD.
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:I don't know why.
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:But I was embarrassed
and kind of pissed off.
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:When I got home, Chris asked how my
therapy session had gone and I blurted out
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:can you believe they actually clinically
diagnosed me with perfectionist, OCD?
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:What the fuck?
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:And he just chuckled and said, yeah,
you're a complete perfectionist
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:and you totally have OCD.
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:He then started to go on and on
about why it was obvious and all
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:the things that I do every day and
my quirks, et cetera, et cetera.
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:After the diagnosis, my therapy
shifted to managing it and taming it.
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:And I can honestly say that I'm
a lot better than I used to be.
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:You know, You don't have to be
clinically diagnosed where the
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:perfectionist OCD to have it hold
you back in business or a networking.
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:Which is why I've asked Nicole to join us.
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:She's here to break down the three
types of perfectionism, how those
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:types hold us back in different ways
and what we can do to overcome it.
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:Nicole.
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:Hello, and thank you for being here.
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:Nicole: I am so happy to be here and thank
you for sharing that story because wow did
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:that just hit me in the heart like just
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:Julie: Really?
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:Because it hit me in the throat.
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:Yeah, um, I was shocked.
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:I was shocked that, well, I mean, it was
stress induced and I'm sure a lot of the
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:stress was caused by my perfectionism and
a combination of perfectionism and OCD
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:together, which actually is a great way
to ask, like, this seems perfectionism and
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:overcoming it and coaching it seems like
a very niche area, a very niche space.
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:So how did you start in this space?
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:Nicole: So I, I had a very
weird and unique upbringing
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:is what I like to call it.
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:Uh, both of my parents worked
for Tony Robbins and other very
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:big personal development gurus
for a long, long, long time.
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:And so I grew up attending the seminars.
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:I grew up listening to the audio
tapes, walking across fire, you
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:know, seeing people have like
those big, I am enough moments.
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:And I fell in love with it.
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:In growing up in the personal development
world of like the 80s early 90s.
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:It was very all or nothing.
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:It was very go after your dreams
at no at all costs like make
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:sure you're hustling and like so
that was really drilled into me.
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:So that constant pressure to be
the best in the room that constant
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:pressure to play at 135 percent
every single day or bust was really
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:drilled into me to the point where
that high achiever perfectionism was.
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:as easy as breathing for me.
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:Now, however, when I was in, uh, like
early elementary school, even up to,
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:uh, middle school, I started getting
pretty severely bullied to the point
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:where I was stuffed into bathrooms.
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:I was hit.
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:I was called names that I will literally
never tell another person on the planet
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:or ever call another person on the planet.
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:Cause it was just so kids are so mean.
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:It was terrible.
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:And one day I was in the
bathroom, I was locking the door.
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:So like they couldn't get in and.
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:I had this moment where it was, if
I am not perfect, if I am not what
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:everyone else needs me to be, if I am
not small, quiet, um, complacent, people
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:pleasing, I will continue getting hurt.
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:And so not only did I have this high
achiever, I need to be the best, but then
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:I also had layered on top of it, if you do
show up too powerfully, you will get hurt.
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:And this belief system worked as
like, you know, opposite ends of a
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:magnet in me for almost 10 years.
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:So flash forward a little ways,
just keep the story short.
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:I, um, ended up attending a
very, very, very prominent
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:musical theater college for, um.
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:In the hopes of going to Broadway in
the hopes of being a musical theater
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:performer and my perfectionism
hit a point where it was so bad.
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:My anxiety was through the roof.
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:I was having daily panic attacks.
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:I was drinking myself to blackout
every weekend just to numb any of
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:those like high intense feelings.
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:I was so overwhelmed by the need to
practice that I'd procrastinate and then
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:I beat myself up for procrastinating.
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:It was just a terrible,
terrible situation.
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:And finally, my professor sat
me down and he was like, You are
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:being asked to leave the school or
perform a miracle, basically, and
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:he said it much kinder than that.
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:I'm kind of, I'm, I'm looking at it
through a lens that I heard when I was
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:sitting in his office and I was shocked.
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:I was like, Oh my God, I worked my
butt off to get into this college that
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:is like a fast track to Broadway and.
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:I finally, I called my dad who like,
he's, he's a life coach as well.
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:And I was like, I need to start
implementing these things.
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:I learned from like growing
up, I never implemented them.
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:I always knew them.
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:I always knew how to get
that most out of your energy.
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:I always knew how to change your state.
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:I always knew how to get in, you
know, uh, a good mindset, but I
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:was never implementing those tools.
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:And so homeboy coached me like nobody's
business for, um, gosh, it was a while.
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:And so long story short, I ended up
graduating, thank God, cum laude,
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:which I'm going to do a little hair
toss for, you know, but what, what
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:really happened in that moment was.
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:I realized how much what we say in
between our ears, what we say in our
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:brain affects how we show up in the world.
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:And so I immediately was like, I think
I need to go into this coaching world.
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:Like this is so, this is addicting.
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:I love this feeling.
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:And.
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:I started realizing what I
really loved doing was coaching
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:that perfectionist mindset.
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:Now, when I say perfectionist, I want to
just put a little caveat here because I
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:say perfectionism and a lot of people are
like, oh, you know, the house needs to
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:be immaculate, you know, um, like all my
to do lists are perfect and organized.
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:That's a type of perfectionism.
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:Yes.
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:However, it is not perfectionism.
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:Full stop.
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:I've talked to people who have.
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:Like not a single space of clear floor
and they are still a perfectionist.
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:I've talked to people who are
disorganized and chaos, and
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:they're still a perfectionist.
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:I've talked to people who
take messy action, like crazy.
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:And they are still a perfectionist.
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:What I define perfectionism as
is you have unbelievably high
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:standards from your, for yourself.
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:And whenever you fall short major
air quotes there, but whenever
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:you fall short, you believe that
you are not enough at your core.
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:And when you do hit the point of.
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:Let's say you're wanting to push
yourself to 200 percent today.
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:When you do hit that point, you ask
yourself, damn, I could have done 201.
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:So that's how I look at perfectionism.
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:Julie: So now that we've defined
it, let's talk of, you say they
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:are, there are three types.
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:And to the listeners, uh, you have
a test on your website where you can
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:figure out which one of these you are.
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:And I took the test and we'll
get into that afterwards.
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:But let's talk about the
three types of perfectionist
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:and perfectionism that exist.
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:Nicole: Yes.
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:So, um, if you want to take the
quiz, you can go to lifecoachbaker.
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:com forward slash quiz, and you can
take this while we're talking about it.
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:But what I learned is that.
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:As I was talking to people, I've
coached out thousands of perfectionists.
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:I learned that they were each
basically in one of three categories.
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:Now I want to go ahead and say
right off the bat, you can be like.
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:all three types.
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:You, it's not like the Enneagram or Myers
Briggs where you were just one type.
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:It's not like that.
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:Depending on what stage of
life you're in, you might lean
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:into one type over the other.
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:We all tend to have a home type,
however, one that we tend to go back to.
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:It's a little bit more comfortable.
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:It's a little bit more, um,
like that home based type.
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:So that's what I want you to
think about as I talk about these.
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:So the first type of perfectionist
is that high achiever.
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:It's the person who is always saying,
um, okay, what's my next goal?
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:What's my next goal?
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:By the time they achieve said goal, they
celebrate maybe, maybe for two minutes,
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:maybe if it's a good day and then
immediately it's a, okay, what's next?
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:Okay.
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:What's next?
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:The kryptonite here, because there's
a lot of positives to this type.
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:You tend to play big, you tend
to take a lot of messy action.
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:You tend to, um, you know,
be a lot of those successful
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:people that we would like.
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:In the culturally defined success
as basically they tend to be the
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:high achieving perfectionist and
actually they're very open about
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:being a high achieving perfectionist,
Bernie Brown, Tim Ferriss, or
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:just two of them, which I love.
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:So this person tends to put those really,
really high standards on themselves.
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:However, they tend to.
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:Always say, I'm not doing enough.
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:I can push harder.
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:Um, they tend to almost like self
flagellate or even beat themselves
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:up in order to get to the next level,
which is insinuate, which is, um, uh,
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:increasing that belief in our brain that
no matter what I do, I am never enough.
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:So that's the high
achieving perfectionist.
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:Do you mind, do you want to go ahead
and say which one you are doing?
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:Julie: Yeah, so I, so I took the test,
um, and I came in as the overachiever.
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:Nicole: Yeah.
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:Overachiever, high achiever.
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:I use those interchangeably, but yes, yes.
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:So that's type one.
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:We then have type 2, which
is the procrastinator.
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:So the procrastinating
perfectionist, they still have
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:very high standards for themselves.
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:They tend to look at their goals.
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:And by the way, it's not just 1 goal.
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:It's like 45 goals at 1 time
that they're trying to achieve.
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:Always.
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:I literally have counted
with people on said calls.
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:Um.
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:And they're wanting to get to
the end result of all of these
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:goals as fast as possible.
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:But what this does is in their
brains, this is what differentiates
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:them from the overachiever.
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:What it does in their brains is it
like slams down the fight, flight,
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:freeze button and procrastinators
tend to flight, not freeze.
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:Flight because when they flight
there, Ooh, you know what would
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:be more, um, you know, beneficial.
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:I'm not really feeling getting
out of my comfort zone today.
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:I'm gonna go clean the dishes instead.
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:Or, Ooh, um, I know I could send that
email to pitch myself to this really big
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:company, or I could post on Instagram
or tick tock, or like, you know, it's
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:like we always tend to lean into the.
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:easier options.
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:Now I like to always say this because
procrastinators hear that they're
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:procrastinators and they're like,
Oh my God, that means I'm lazy.
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:And that's so not true because
procrastinators are some of the
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:hardest mother effing workers
I've ever met in my life.
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:Julie: say the whole
thing on this podcast.
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:Nicole: Okay, beautiful.
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:Motherfucking workers
I've ever met in my life.
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:Even more so than overachievers
sometimes, and that freaks
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:overachievers out when I say that.
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:But the reason is, is because
they're so, they, uh, meaning the
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:procrastinators, are so busy working
on every single little thing.
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:But it's not the things that are
actually going to move them forward.
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:And at the end of the day, they are only
looking at what they have yet to do to
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:achieve those 47, 000 goals of theirs.
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:So that's the procrastinator.
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:And by the way, this is
the biggest type by far,
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:Julie: Oh, really?
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:Nicole: almost 60 percent of people
who take my quiz, which I think we're
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:just shy of 3, 500 now, um, over 60
percent of people are procrastinators.
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:So keep that in mind.
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:Last but not least is the people pleaser.
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:The people pleasing perfectionist
is exactly what it sounds like.
241
:We are very familiar with the
phrase people pleasing, but what
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:it basically means is I need to be
perfect for every single other person.
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:What they're doing is constantly
putting other people's opinions.
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:Thoughts to do list schedules
on a pedestal above themselves.
245
:And by doing so, they are probably
going to be ending up procrastinating.
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:They're probably going to end
up overachieving to make sure
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:they go above and beyond for
that project for their boss.
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:But something I see a lot
of the times, especially in
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:networking, this is something I'm.
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:Actively working on right now is because
I tend to be a very people pleasing
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:perfectionist in networking settings.
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:And that means I'm always
asking everyone else about them.
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:I'm always asking and seeing,
like, how are you doing?
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:I'm making sure like everyone feels
so comfortable and so connected.
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:But what that ends up doing is
I'm putting everyone else on
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:this major pedestal above myself.
257
:And that means that I'm shying away
from talking about my business or
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:I'm shocking, shying away from, you
know, Offering them a piece of advice
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:because, oh, they're better than me.
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:I don't want to, I don't want to
step on anyone's toes or I don't
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:want to ruffle any feathers.
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:So that's something that
I'm actively working on.
263
:Um, but in those, I see that a lot in
more social settings is that people
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:pleasing perfectionist tends to.
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:rear its ugly head
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:Julie: Mm hmm.
267
:Nicole: So those are the three types.
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:Julie: I mean, I feel like as you
were describing these three types,
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:I'm, I wrote down almost on every
single one, childhood trauma,
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:Nicole: Yes.
271
:Julie: childhood trauma.
272
:Nicole: Exactly.
273
:I, I laugh because it's so accurate.
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:Like it's so accurate.
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:Yes.
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:Julie: Like, I, I once saw this comedian
talk about therapy, and I watch a lot
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:of comedians, stand up on comedy shows
and comedians because I, I like to see
278
:how they deliver a line and a punchline
and it helps me in my professional
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:speaking and there was this one,
um, Uh, comedian and she was talking
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:about going to therapy and she was
like, most parent people go to therapy
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:because they think like, Oh, I suck.
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:So I have to go to therapy.
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:But therapy is more about like
putting up on a wall, all of the
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:reasons why you think you suck.
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:And then putting up on another wall,
all of your childhood traumas and then
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:drawing strings between your childhood
trauma and why you think you suck.
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:Nicole: I know the exact comedian
and it's Taylor Tomlinson.
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:Her Netflix special is Look At You.
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:She's amazing.
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:I love her.
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:And yes, I, Oh, my God.
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:It's, it's so true.
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:Like, and a lot of looking at, especially
perfectionism, because perfectionism,
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:anxiety are so interconnected.
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:I don't think there's a single
perfectionist out there who
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:doesn't have some level of anxiety.
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:And when we look at anxiety, especially
in a perfectionist way, it's because
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:we're always looking forward.
299
:We're always looking Future focus,
especially as overachievers, what
300
:do I need to accomplish next?
301
:Where am I going?
302
:Why am I not there yet?
303
:Da da da da da.
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:It's always looking forward, which
means we're never looking present.
305
:Now sometimes, you know, people pleasing
perfectionists, they'll look backwards.
306
:Like they'll look at that conversation
they had at that recent networking
307
:meeting and being like, Oh my God,
I could have done so much better.
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:That was so bad that I've done
that on so many occasions.
309
:Julie: everybody does it.
310
:Everybody does
311
:Nicole: it.
312
:But what the issue with perfectionism,
it's never looking in the present
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:moment because present moment
thinking is where we think of journey.
314
:It's where we think of, Oh my
gosh, I'm growing every single
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:day and I'm enough no matter what.
316
:Julie: Mm hmm.
317
:Nicole: Present moment thinking is
really the sweet sauce where all
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:of these, I'm going to call them
superpowers of these three different
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:perfectionists can wildly like flourish.
320
:But when we're in future or past
thinking in each of these types,
321
:that's when we go into our.
322
:Downfalls for lack of a better term,
323
:Julie: So how do we lean into, I
mean, if we are these things, and we
324
:are, and our childhood will inform
how we become adults, um, how do we
325
:lean into the strengths of these?
326
:Because you did mention that
there are some strengths.
327
:So, yeah, how can we lean into
the strengths and maybe pull
328
:away some of, like, the less...
329
:Um, helpful attributes of these things.
330
:Nicole: totally.
331
:So I'm going to, I'll work
backwards on this one.
332
:So people pleasing
perfectionists, their strength.
333
:And I'm curious if you agree
with me on this, Julie.
334
:Their strength is that they give
so many fucks about other people.
335
:I don't know about you, but the way the
world is going, I think we need a hell
336
:of a lot more people pleasers out there.
337
:Healthy people pleasers, let me be very
specific, but we need people giving
338
:a damn about other people right now.
339
:So that monstrosity of a superpower,
Is not to be understated.
340
:Now where it starts to lean into
that superpower over the putting
341
:other people on a pedestal constantly
is starting the inner work.
342
:This is going to be a little bit
broad because it's going to be
343
:so specific for every person.
344
:So in order for me to stop putting
everyone else on a motherfucking pedestal
345
:above myself, I need to know that
no matter what my mind, my thoughts,
346
:my feelings are just as important.
347
:As those around me.
348
:So wait, start doing that.
349
:You're doing a great job right now.
350
:Cause you're listening to a podcast
about learning how to raise your
351
:voice up and put it on the same level.
352
:Um, therapy, you
mentioned you did therapy.
353
:I just started therapy about, um,
Ooh, golly less than four months ago.
354
:I started it two months before my wedding.
355
:That was a mistake.
356
:I don't recommend doing that.
357
:That was a terrible idea, but I'm
glad it was better late than never.
358
:I'm really glad I did it.
359
:But I learned that I was constantly
putting other people's thoughts,
360
:opinions, my mother in law specifically,
above like all these different
361
:thoughts and feelings about myself.
362
:And in doing so, I started to, in doing
so, meaning therapy, I started learning
363
:how to use those tools, how to stop
getting in my own way in that way.
364
:So therapists, coaching,
coaching is a great way to also
365
:start putting yourself forward.
366
:Um, I mean, and if those are
not financially available to you
367
:right now, Go to the library and
get a personal development book.
368
:Podcasts are effing free.
369
:I love it.
370
:They're so great.
371
:YouTube videos, TED talks.
372
:There's so many different options here.
373
:The big thing is just
start opening your ears.
374
:So you start thinking in a new way.
375
:Julie: Yeah.
376
:Nicole: So for the procrastinator, you
know how I mentioned procrastinators
377
:tend to have all these different
goals and then they tend to want to
378
:drop in at the end achievement of
each and every single one of them.
379
:And that's what causes overwhelm.
380
:We need to diminish the overwhelm
because overwhelm is what
381
:gets us into procrastination.
382
:It's like they're so interconnected.
383
:So what I always think about
is, let's say, um, let's say
384
:we're going to do easy math.
385
:My goal is here at level 100.
386
:Let's say it's.
387
:Um, you know, launch a book.
388
:Let's say I really want to have a book.
389
:That way I can hand them out at little
network networking events, because
390
:that would be so freaking cool to
just be able to get those out or like
391
:have, you know, um, be on different
podcasts, all that kind of stuff.
392
:Let's say having a book is
so, so, so high on my list of
393
:things I want, that's level 100.
394
:And if I think of just dropping,
you've written a book, if I just
395
:think of dropping straight down at
level 100, I would never, ever, ever
396
:write a single word on a page, never.
397
:So instead, if I'm here at
level zero, again, easy math,
398
:I'm trying to get to level 100.
399
:I need to ask what's step one, not
what's step two through 99, just what's
400
:step one by chunking things down.
401
:That's what diminishes overwhelm.
402
:And I see this often
and people are like, ah.
403
:It can't be that easy.
404
:It is.
405
:Our brains are not complicated.
406
:They are very simplistic in this way.
407
:So just chunk things down.
408
:So you're asking what step one.
409
:So Julia, if you're starting a
new book, what would step one be?
410
:Julie: I would reach out
to my book writing coach.
411
:Nicole: Bingo there.
412
:And that's so easy.
413
:I could do that in an afternoon.
414
:Let's say it's launch a website.
415
:Um, I've never done it before.
416
:You know, maybe I, this is
brand new information to me.
417
:I have no idea what to do.
418
:Step one would be Google
how to start a website.
419
:Like it's so simple and yet we
get so overwhelmed by trying to
420
:jump too far ahead of ourselves.
421
:So ask yourself, what is step one
that diminishes the overwhelm,
422
:which diminishes procrastination?
423
:Thank
424
:Julie: wanna, when we talk about
the procrastinator, I don't wanna
425
:forget to maybe mention what is
a strength of the procrastinator.
426
:Nicole: you.
427
:Yes.
428
:Oh my gosh.
429
:So.
430
:One of the things that procrastinators
do so well, like I mentioned, they
431
:have 42 goals at any given moment.
432
:They are some of the biggest dreamers.
433
:And I'm not saying like the
realistic dreamers, like us high
434
:achievers tend to be like, we tend
to be very realistic dreamers.
435
:There tend to be big
dreams, but very realistic.
436
:For procrastinators, they have
these dreams that literally like
437
:I can, when we were talking about
it, I can see their body expanding.
438
:I'm not like a super woo woo person.
439
:I like, I like neuroscience.
440
:I like the hard, hard science behind
this stuff, but you can literally see
441
:energy around them moving mountains for
them, but they get in their own way.
442
:So the big thing is just that
stopping of the getting their
443
:own way with the procrastination.
444
:Cause then that expansion,
it moves so quickly.
445
:I have seen procrastinators manifest
10 year dreams in six weeks.
446
:I'm dead serious.
447
:It is amazing.
448
:The only, the big things are just
getting out of their own way with
449
:procrastination and believing that
they can take small steps forward.
450
:A lot of people think procrastination
is like a fixed trait within them.
451
:Like I am a procrastinator.
452
:They make it part of their identity.
453
:Please, for the love of God.
454
:Stop that.
455
:It is not a part of your identity.
456
:It is not a fixed
emotional state of being.
457
:It is something that is
fluid and it is a habit.
458
:You can overcome any habit and rewrite it.
459
:Full stop.
460
:Then, overachiever.
461
:Overachievers.
462
:We get shit done.
463
:We get shit done.
464
:We're the people at the
companies or We're honest.
465
:What am I saying?
466
:We're the entrepreneurs.
467
:We have our own companies.
468
:We run our own companies.
469
:We change the world.
470
:We are the people who tend
to, you know, Steve jobs.
471
:We come up with these like groundbreaking
ideas, which is really, really cool.
472
:But like I mentioned earlier, if
you're constantly hating yourself to
473
:the next level, you're going to, I
always say you need to start enjoying
474
:the life you're working so hard for.
475
:So how do we do that?
476
:Self breaking compassion, but the issue
with self compassion and high achievers
477
:and overachievers is we equate loving
ourselves, you know, the self care
478
:did to do with slowing down becoming
mediocre and becoming complacent.
479
:I hear almost on a daily basis.
480
:Well, if I, if I slow down, if I start
enjoying my life, if I start, you
481
:know, finding gratitude and my day
to day things, if I start enjoying or
482
:like looking at the goals and feeling
proud of myself, I'll lose momentum.
483
:And I say,
484
:Julie: Yep.
485
:Nicole: bullshit,
486
:Julie: Yeah.
487
:Nicole: bullshit, that
momentum, that fire, it becomes.
488
:A bonfire when you start
giving yourself some effing
489
:credit for how far you've come.
490
:Because when you're saying,
look at me, I'm so good.
491
:I like, look at me getting
out of my comfort zone again.
492
:I'm so awesome.
493
:Like, look at me go.
494
:Like we start to enjoy, excuse me, we
start to believe that at our core, we are
495
:enough and we can still reach for more.
496
:If I am enough, that does not negate the
fact that I can still reach for more.
497
:Like, those two things are not mutually
exclusive, and yet us overachievers
498
:tend to put them in two different boxes.
499
:Julie: Yeah.
500
:And when I think about, so now
that I'm thinking about it from a
501
:networking lens, when I look at the
three different types, and how it might
502
:affect you networking, I think, okay,
overachievers think I do everything
503
:on my own, I don't need other people.
504
:Nicole: hmm.
505
:Ha ha, yes.
506
:Julie: Um, and then procrastinators
will wait till they're perfect.
507
:We'll wait till their resume is right.
508
:They're at the right job.
509
:They have the right title.
510
:They're at the right age or like
whatever to start networking because
511
:they don't want to go into a room in
which they feel like they don't belong.
512
:And the people pleaser is
not understanding that.
513
:Yes, you give you always give into
relationships, but you can't be taken
514
:advantage of like there needs to be at
some point a reciprocity reflex that
515
:comes into the networking relationship.
516
:And so I could see how these three
types could really hinder you from
517
:creating an effective network or using
a network, the way that you should.
518
:Nicole: yes.
519
:Well, I'm going to add to the
overachiever, uh, of this because
520
:for instance, um, what is this?
521
:Three weeks ago, I was at a podcasting
conference here in Denver and I was
522
:so excited for this event, but a few
days beforehand, I started realizing
523
:that I was going into old childhood
patterns of I need to be the best.
524
:I need to be the loudest in the room.
525
:I need to, which is funny
because it's so at odds of that
526
:people pleasing perfectionist.
527
:You can see the dichotomy there, but I
was putting some Unbelievable amounts
528
:of pressure on myself to be, be loud
network, get the most out of this event.
529
:And it was to the point where
it was not empowering anymore.
530
:It was me squeezing and white knuckling
the life out of any joy or any, uh, like
531
:learning I would have at this event.
532
:So actually it was, I was.
533
:I was on a call with my therapist
and she knows how to call me out
534
:immediately on my old personal
development bullshit like I, I believe
535
:in finding the gray area of personal
development and I grew up very black
536
:and white personal development, which I
537
:Julie: I learned the gray area
and therapy because I'm a very
538
:black and white person as well.
539
:Nicole: we perfectionists tend to be so
definitely, but when we, when her and I
540
:were talking, she was like, do you need
to be the best person at this conference
541
:in order to get the most out of it?
542
:And I was like, My immediately gut
was yes, of course, absolutely.
543
:And she was like, what's
the goal of this conference?
544
:And I was like, It's to learn.
545
:It's to go to the sessions.
546
:It's to sit back and enjoy me
being a little freaking Ravenclaw
547
:and taking notes and like actually
like enjoying the process.
548
:She was like, that doesn't sound like
you're trying to be the best in the room.
549
:That sounds like you're leaning
into your already natural strengths
550
:of being an intelligent person.
551
:And I was like, God, yeah.
552
:So.
553
:I had to remind myself every single
day and sometimes way more than
554
:once a day at this conference.
555
:What's the goal here?
556
:What's the goal here?
557
:What's the goal here?
558
:It's not to be the best person.
559
:It's not to be the loudest person.
560
:It's not to make sure everyone
knows your name by the end of it.
561
:Instead, It's to learn and in, and in that
process, I ended up making connections
562
:that now people are coming on my show.
563
:I ended up making up connections of, um,
uh, people who have these monster podcasts
564
:out there who are now listening to mine.
565
:Like, I mean, literally that came
because I started actually going to
566
:this thing, leaning into who I am at
my core rather than this like front
567
:that I felt like I had to put on.
568
:Julie: Yeah.
569
:Congratulations on going to a conference
because they're one of my favorite
570
:networking tools and business development
tools and career development tools
571
:that I tell all of the people I coach.
572
:It's like, let's find a conference for
something that, you know, related to
573
:your job that you are interested in.
574
:That isn't a place where you get
to talk to collaborators and peers
575
:and learn and build a network.
576
:So.
577
:Kudos to you for doing that.
578
:And I hope you keep doing that.
579
:You keep going to conferences.
580
:Um, because me as a networking
coach, they're one of the, they're
581
:one of the best tools that we have.
582
:Nicole: I agree.
583
:I agree completely.
584
:Julie: Yeah, but they do, they are, they
can cause a lot of anxiety for people.
585
:I have a person in my network who.
586
:He texted me in the middle of a
conference saying how out of place
587
:she felt and she didn't think that she
belonged there and I got on a call and
588
:I said, tell me about this conference.
589
:Tell me the people who are
there and then tell me what your
590
:role is also in this industry.
591
:And by the end of it, um, you know,
that call, she was completely happy.
592
:She was like, Oh my God, I never
even looked at it from this
593
:side of what my role is here.
594
:And she ended up having the.
595
:The best time at that conference.
596
:Um, I'm not going to say what it was
because I haven't gotten her approval
597
:to like talk about it, but it was
she was freaking out and I was just
598
:like, okay, well, let's just look
at it from a different perspective.
599
:And once we did that, the whole room
opened up to her as a place for her
600
:to feel comfortable and network.
601
:So
602
:Nicole: Yes.
603
:I, I couldn't agree.
604
:And actually, uh, I, I like to get
vulnerable as a perfectionist coach
605
:and share my own imperfections.
606
:Um, Day one of the conference, I
attended a bunch of panels that were
607
:these like podcast legends, you know,
this was a big podcasting conference.
608
:It's called podcast movement.
609
:If you are a podcaster, please,
for the love of God attend.
610
:It was incredible.
611
:But day one, um, I was like, I'm
going to go listen to all the, I was
612
:being in my little high achiever self.
613
:I'm going to go listen to all
like the top dogs and learn
614
:from them at their level 100.
615
:And I can get both of that.
616
:And I ended up attending session
after session where they said, if
617
:you don't have X amount of downloads,
and it was this like astronomical
618
:Julie: Mm hmm.
619
:Nicole: then you can't monetize,
you can't grow or did it like, it
620
:was very, it was, it was bullshit.
621
:It was absolutely not true.
622
:And it was all these like white buff
guys who've been podcasting years.
623
:And I got in my car at the end of the
day and I called my husband and I broke.
624
:Down completely broke down because
I was like, what am I doing wrong?
625
:I'm not enough.
626
:I'm never going to grow.
627
:I've been doing this for four years.
628
:I can't get it.
629
:The irony is now I've actually just
this past week started a second podcast
630
:because I don't know how to hobby.
631
:But the, the big thing that just
kept repeating over and over in my
632
:head is, well, you're not there.
633
:Therefore, you suck.
634
:Forgetting that they didn't
get there just like on day one.
635
:They've been doing this for 12 years.
636
:Julie: No, and also that
there's always disruptors.
637
:Always disruptors and outliers in
every single, in every single industry.
638
:So if somebody says, ever
says, this is the only way to
639
:do it, they're full of shit.
640
:And even when I am on stages in front of
thousands of people saying these are...
641
:I say these are my five
best networking tools.
642
:This is what has worked for me.
643
:I can only give this
keynote from my perspective.
644
:And if my tools work for
you, please take them.
645
:And if they inspire you to come up
with another tool, please do that.
646
:Because I'm not you.
647
:Oh,
648
:Nicole: Thank you.
649
:Thank you on behalf of every perfectionist
in the effing world, like, thank you
650
:for doing that because like, again,
we hear things very black and white.
651
:I grew up under Tony Robbins.
652
:He said, you have to get four, like,
this is way back when he was like, I
653
:only get four hours of sleep a night.
654
:And therefore, my brain, my
brain said, you can only get
655
:four hours of sleep at night.
656
:I.
657
:I do not function under
eight hours of sleep.
658
:God help me if I ever have children.
659
:Like I do not function
under eight hours of sleep.
660
:And because of that, I was holding
myself to this measuring stick of
661
:someone who does not work the same
way that I do and who has a very
662
:different level of teams of hours.
663
:Like I, I really hate the quote.
664
:Um, uh, everyone has the same 24 hours
in the day, even Beyonce, because.
665
:Julie: Beyonce has a team of people
that do things for her in those 24
666
:Nicole: Exactly.
667
:Like me, I, you know, I'm, I still
feel like I'm a baby business.
668
:A lot of the times, even though I've been
doing this for five years, like I don't
669
:have the same team that Beyonce does.
670
:I don't have the same team that Tony
Robbins or Tim Ferriss or Brene Brown.
671
:I don't have those
things, those same teams.
672
:And if I hold myself to their standards
of pumping out content of, um, you know,
673
:holding a, uh, conferences that have 500,
000 people at it, like I can't do that.
674
:Because if I do, I will never
measure up and I will continue
675
:always beating myself down.
676
:Julie: Yeah, well, I think that's
actually a great place to end.
677
:Um, I think this, the way we've
wrapped it up with is just like,
678
:the one way is not the only way.
679
:You know, I mean, we have to understand
that as entrepreneurs, as business
680
:people, as people who achieve, try
to achieve success, like there's
681
:always multiple ways of achieving.
682
:Um, so I think you mentioned it
before, but I want you to say it again.
683
:Where can people find you, um, online
to take this test to figure out maybe
684
:they've already said, or I already know
what one I am, but you do have, you
685
:know, so what's great is on your website
when you take this test and you find out
686
:what you are, there is a, so what now?
687
:So what can we do now?
688
:Section that comes after that.
689
:So where can people find that?
690
:Nicole: You can go to lifecoachbaker.
691
:com forward slash quiz,
and it's all right there.
692
:It's 100 percent free, um, and join the
3, 500 people who have already taken it.
693
:And if you think you already know,
I've had people take it and be
694
:like, Oh, I thought I was this,
but then I, you know, read the
695
:description for the people pleaser.
696
:And I was like, Oh crap, I'm
actually the people pleaser.
697
:So, so know that it, it might change.
698
:And also you might change you.
699
:I was a people pleaser and
now I definitely resonate
700
:more with the overachiever.
701
:Um, I also have my own podcast, which is
called Imperfect Success, um, probably
702
:where you're listening to this podcast.
703
:It's on there too.
704
:So you can check it out there.
705
:And I'm on Instagram primarily at Life
Coach Baker, um, and I post a bunch of
706
:funny videos about how ridiculous we are
as perfectionists as well as little tips
707
:and tricks to overcome perfectionism.
708
:Julie: Perfect.
709
:Okay.
710
:Everyone go there, do all that stuff.
711
:Nicole, thank you so much.
712
:This was so fun.
713
:Thank you so much.
714
:Nicole: Thank you.
715
:This is a blast.
716
:So one of my biggest takeaways from this
interview that you might have missed.
717
:Was when Nicole said that she
knows people with perfectionism.
718
:Who also struggle with it.
719
:And they aren't meticulous about being
organized or having a clean desk or
720
:everything in their life has perfect.
721
:You know, A lot of times, I think we
look at ourselves and we have thoughts,
722
:like, well, I can't be a perfectionist
because everything in my life or at
723
:least the things I can control aren't.
724
:Quote unquote.
725
:Perfect.
726
:So.
727
:I mean, that just struck me.
728
:So there are so many people out there
might who might be suffering from
729
:one of these perfectionist traits.
730
:And not even fully realize it.
731
:You know, if you've listened to this
podcast for any length of time, it
732
:was obvious that I was going to be
the over achiever perfectionist.
733
:It goes along with all the other
personality traits that have gone,
734
:you know, tasks that have gone
through on this show with you.
735
:Life, path numbers,
Enneagrams everything else.
736
:And you will say.
737
:There'll be did a lot to help me.
738
:I don't think that I'll ever not have
that perfectionist tendency or, or OCD for
739
:that matter, but those two things aren't
as crippling for me as they used to be.
740
:And part of being able to deal with
it and manage it was understanding
741
:it and being diagnosed with it.
742
:So I would suggest heading on over
to Nicole's website and take the
743
:test to find out what type you are.
744
:If you are one.
745
:And then, you know, embrace it for w.
746
:For the good it does for you, but
then also look at it and try to figure
747
:out how it might be holding you back
and how you can work through it.
748
:Okay.
749
:Now onto the drink of the week, which
is perfect name, the balanced perfection
750
:Manhattan from cocktail contest,
who states that a perfect Manhattan.
751
:And isn't just a description.
752
:It's a cocktail in and of itself rather
than in the usual combination of whiskey.
753
:Vermouth and bitters.
754
:Perfect.
755
:This balance.
756
:Perfect Manhattan uses equal
parts of sweet and dry vermouth.
757
:Creating a cocktail that's slightly
drier, a little less sweet, but
758
:still focuses on the whiskey.
759
:Here's what you're going to need.
760
:One ounce of bourbon.
761
:It calls for Henry McKenna
single barrel, bottled in bond.
762
:And.
763
:You know, I've actually been to this
distillery and this whiskey used to
764
:be off allocation, which meant that
you, you used to be able to get it.
765
:Really easily and now because it's, um,
on allocation, you can't get it as easily.
766
:And it's kind of super expensive when it's
like one week it was $35 in the next week.
767
:It was like a hundred bucks.
768
:So it's ridiculous.
769
:So just use whatever.
770
:You know, bourbon, you want.
771
:And then one ounce of rice she
calls for wilderness trail ride
772
:or will it three-year-old right.
773
:Again, I've been to the Willet
distillery will, it is rather expensive.
774
:So, you know, use a ride that you like.
775
:Half ounce sweet vermouth.
776
:I have found striver Muth, five
drops of spiced, cherry bitters,
777
:five drops of orange bitters, and an
orange peel and cherry for garnish.
778
:So combine the whiskeys, the vermouths
and the bitters and a mixing glass.
779
:Info with ice, sir, until chilled
and welcome mind at least 30 seconds.
780
:And then strain into a chilled
martini or coupe, glass, and garnish
781
:with that orange and the cherry.
782
:I got to tell ya.
783
:I might've mentioned it in a
previous podcast last winter,
784
:but last quarter, it was like my
winter of Manhattan Manhattans.
785
:It was my go-to drink.
786
:And I'm super excited that we're kind
of getting into the cooler weather.
787
:Um and now we have a whole new manhattan
a recipe to try All right friends that's
788
:all for this week if you like what you
heard today Please leave a review and
789
:subscribe to the podcast Also please
remember to share this podcast With
790
:your friends to help her reach a larger
Audience if you want more julie brown
791
:you can find my book this shit works on
amazon and barnes and noble you can find
792
:me on linkedin at julie brown bd just
let me know where you found me when you
793
:reach out I'm julie brown underscore a
bd on the instagram or you can just pop
794
:on over to my website Julie brown bd.com.
795
:Until next week cheers guys
