Sales leadership is one of the hardest jobs in the company. Your success is black and white—you've either hit your number, or you haven't—and getting a group of sellers moving in the same direction isn’t easy, as anyone in RevOps knows.

Today we're joined by Kyle Asay to dig into what separates top-performing sales leaders from the rest. We talk about how to scale sales excellence, balance standardization with creativity, and build trust and rapport at every stage of the sales process.

Kyle also shares his insights on navigating the transition from individual contributor to sales leader, the real role of AI in outbound, and how to build a side hustle while leading a team.

Packed with practical frameworks and hard-won lessons, this conversation is a must-listen for sales leaders, individual sellers, and revenue operators supporting sales teams.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

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About Today's Guest

Kyle Asay started his career in sales as an SDR at Qualtrics, where he qualified for five consecutive President’s Clubs as an AE, front-line leader, and second-line leader.

After an incredible 8.5 years at Qualtrics, he's gone on to serve as a sales leader for MongoDB and currently at LaunchDarkly.

You can also find him sharing his frameworks with over 10,000 sellers at SalesIntroverts.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleasay/

Key Topics

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:52] - Current selling environment
• [04:46] - Scaling sales excellence
• [10:05] - Right-sizing discovery phase
• [12:39] - Building trust and rapport
• [17:53] - Transitioning from sales IC to sales leader
• [20:46] - The job of a sales leader
• [24:10] - Identifying the right people
• [27:47] - Standardized process vs. individual ingenuity
• [30:59] - Handling the pressure of sales leadership
• [34:55] - AEs and SDR alignment
• [42:47] - AI SDRs
• [44:59] - Sales and RevOps relationship
• [48:23] - Building a side hustle

Thanks to Our Sponsor

This November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners.

This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day.

Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast.

MOps-Apalooza 2024

Resource Links

• Sales Introverts

Learn More

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Justin Norris: 00:00:14

So let's face it,

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the sales leader has the

hardest job in the company.

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Although I think the marketing

leader is a pretty close second.

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And I'd argue this because success

in sales is black and white.

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Like you've either hit

your number or you haven't.

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The DocuSign has come in or it hasn't.

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There's no credit for influence

revenue or brand or MQLs.

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And while sales is hard enough as an

individual contributor, at least you

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have some semblance of control over

your destiny, but when you're the sales

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leader, your fate depends on other people.

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It's whether you can motivate,

enable, and support a team of

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sellers to all hit their numbers.

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And for those of us that work in

RebOps, we know that's not always

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the easiest thing to get all those

sellers marching in the same direction.

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So it's not surprising that when you look

up the average tenure of a sales leader,

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you see some crazy figures, things like.

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19 months and I'm really curious to

understand what top performing sales

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leaders do Aside from asking their

teams to update their forecast five

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times a day And so to help answer that

question today, we are joined by Kyle AC

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He has spent over eight years in sales

leadership at Qualtrics where he had years

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as number one corporate AE number one

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He's also one of the most prominent

voices in sales leadership on LinkedIn.

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In his spare time, you'll find him as

the founder of sales introverts, where

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he builds frameworks to help other

sellers experience the same success.

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Kyle, so stoked to have you here today.

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Thanks for coming on the show.

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Kyle Asay: Thanks, Justin.

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Excited to be here.

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Justin Norris: maybe just to start

off, we can focus on the current

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environment that we're experiencing.

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I'm a software buyer, rather

than a seller, but I know that

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I am buying less software.

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the software that I am buying is

scrutinized way more by, finance and

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legal and ops, uh, within my company.

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I am negotiating more.

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I am more price sensitive.

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Are you experiencing these

things right now as a seller?

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And like, how have you adapted to

this post reset world that we are in?

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Kyle Asay: Yeah, 100%.

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If anybody's not, shoot me a note

and tell me what you're doing.

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What I'm seeing is where we used to win

a lot of deals when we found a problem.

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Now we're only winning deals

when we find the problem.

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And so when we're doing our

discovery, it's not just understanding

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what is top of mind for you.

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It's what's top of mind for

you that's also top of mind.

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For your boss and other

leaders across the company.

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we're seeing a lot of problems that

two years ago would have been solved

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immediately, but are now being pushed to

the back burner because companies don't

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have the internal resources to solve it.

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They don't have the budget to solve

it, or they're just more focused

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with limited headcount and capacity

on a bigger priority problems.

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but yeah, we're seeing,

uh, it's tougher to win.

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It's tougher to win big

and it's lower to win.

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All, all those things are coming together.

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Justin Norris: I'm also finding strangely

enough, and I don't know what it's like in

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your specific niche, but, the places where

I'm participating as a buyer, usually

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it's actually even more crowded because

I think it's, there's, you know, lower

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cost of entry to start building software.

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So there's way more vendors.

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The landscape is changing.

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How do you think about.

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Standing out versus your competitors

or are you lucky enough that

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you have like a pretty narrow

field where you're selling today?

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Kyle Asay: So it's very noisy.

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It's never been easier to create

software to launch companies.

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that's part of why I was very

selective when I chose another

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company to work for with LaunchDarkly.

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they're recognized as one of

the top platforms in the space.

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So that helps.

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Like, I don't think I'm a good enough

sales leader to sell a bad product.

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So that, that plays a role.

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But even when you have the best product,

or you say you have the best product,

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because every sales leader says they

have the best product, we still have

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to deal with the increased noise.

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I'm really big on, for my team,

let's not just sell the best

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product, let's also execute the best.

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Because if you have a sales team that

is quality enough to sell an inferior

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product, and you're lucky enough to

sell a great product, those two things

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come together really, really well.

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So I'm all about, as a job

seeker, I want to find a company

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where their product is great.

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As a sales leader, I want to

drive sales excellence, so we

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can differentiate by how we sell.

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How we show up in discovery, how we

show up in demos, how we show up in

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POVs, so that way the buyers aren't

just thinking, okay, this product

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looks great, but they're also saying

the experience with the sales team

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was better than what I usually see

from other vendors in the space.

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Justin Norris: How do you do that

at scale like I guess that's always

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the the challenge because you as

an individual seller may understand

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how to drive that experience.

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is it a process thing?

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Is it like a coaching and an

empathy thing with your team?

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Like how do you figure that out?

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Kyle Asay: You take one

small bit at a time.

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And so this quarter, all we're focusing

on is our continued improvements on

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messaging for our pipeline generation.

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That was our first focus

in our PG outbound.

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How do we sound different?

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Then the competition, how do

we not come across the same as

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everybody hiding behind, auto

sequences and AI generated content?

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How do we come across

different in that first touch?

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Now we're putting more emphasis

on discovery from the very start

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of discovery, how do we show up

and tell the buyer, I actually

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understand your business.

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I understand you as a person.

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I'm not going to spend your

time for the next 30 minutes

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asking superficial questions.

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I'm going to get right into priorities.

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So now we're teaching that.

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We have a long way to go, because anything

that has to be brought out across an

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entire org cannot be fixed overnight.

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We're very intentional around what is

the most urgent thing to focus on first.

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For us, it was pipeline

generation, and now discovery.

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And then what are tools that we can

release through enablements, through

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marketing, to supplement the teaching that

we're doing, and how do we go enforce it.

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So we rolled out this

new way of discovery.

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We did enablement, now it's a scrutiny.

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Okay, reps, who's using it, who's not?

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I'm listening to calls,

I'm doing call reviews.

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We're coaching, because

it's not great yet.

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We're not differentiating yet by

how we sell, but we're going to

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continue to make improvements.

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When we fix that part of the

process, we'll figure out then how

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do we differentiate by how we demo.

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But how do we do POVs?

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And you keep going through the process.

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that's how you scale it.

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One, very small piece at a time until

you get people in the right spot.

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Then you're on to the next.

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Justin Norris: I love what you're saying.

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and I'd actually like to even just

go deeper because, you know, in

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RebOps, we're often a partner with

the sales leader and helping design

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and roll these initiatives out.

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I faced these challenges firsthand.

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So maybe just starting from the

beginning, like what you described,

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let's take discovery because

we can all understand that one.

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You want to improve it.

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how do you think through like, the

training or the framework that you're

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going to design up to the point of

like releasing it and like trying to

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get this into the heads of all those

people that you're working with.

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Kyle Asay: So you start

with the outcome in mind.

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What are the takeaways that we as sellers

selfishly want to have from the call?

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And then more importantly,

what do we think that the buyer

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wants to get out of the call?

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And then you design from there.

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And so we worked closely actually with

RevOps, we worked closely with marketing

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around, okay, what are the things

that buyers most frequently want to

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understand after a first call with us?

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How can we bring them that context

immediately in the conversation

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without falling into presentation mode,

without going into a premature demo?

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Then what are the questions that we need

to ask to understand their priorities?

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Their current states and how they're

measuring the negative consequences of

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their current state to see if we even

have a priority worth going further into.

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Then how do we marry those together?

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How do we bring together the

information that we know the

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buyers want to get quickly?

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With the questions that we want answers

to quickly and orchestrate it in a

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way we're in a 30 minute conversation.

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We leave.

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Do we have a priority worth solving?

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And is the buyer confident?

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That we're a likely enough

solution to solve it that they

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want to invest more time with us.

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And then the umbrella behind all of that

is the command of the message framework.

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I'm big on command of the message, never

going to claim I invented anything to

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do with that, but we're really big on

implementing that as part of discovery

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with the deck that we built as a mechanism

to drive a conversation with context.

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So the buyer knows that we're educated.

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And discovery.

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So we go deeper into what matters.

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Justin Norris: So you've

designed this, process.

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And let's say that like you as a great

seller, you could go and take that

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process and run a great discovery

to get your team up to that level.

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So first step, like, do you announce it?

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Do you have enablement, roll out a course?

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What's the next step to

like get them on their way.

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Kyle Asay: Yep.

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So the enablement piece is

all about the awareness.

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why are we implementing this?

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What are the gaps that we have so far

that we feel like need to be addressed

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to improve assessment or moving forward?

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Cause you got to get buy in

from the sellers to some extent.

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as much as sales leaders want to

say, and I'm guilty of this too.

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Sometimes I get it.

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You have to do this.

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Go do this.

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If sellers don't have the

buy in to understand the why.

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If they do implement it, it's not

going to be implemented well, right?

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It's not supposed to be

a check the box exercise.

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So the awareness of why, then teaching

how to use it, then it's also embracing

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the idea that it's not perfect yet.

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We know it's not perfect.

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This is new.

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We need to go get data, review

calls, figure out what's missing.

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But here's how we think it should be used.

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Go use it in this review together.

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So now we're in the

process of reps using it.

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And some of us are coming back and

saying, Hey, that went incredibly well.

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It was a great discovery.

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Others come back and say,

Yeah, that really flopped.

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That went terribly.

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Let's go look at why.

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What did we do wrong?

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What's wrong with the tool?

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What's wrong with our process?

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And then we calibrate.

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that's the process.

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Why we had to do it.

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Why we did it the way that we did.

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Here's how to use it.

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Now, let's go use it, get

feedback, coach, and get better.

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Justin Norris: I know when I am a buyer

and I'm in a discovery call, I'm usually

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sitting there like to show me the product.

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I I think buyers in general feel this,

like they just want to see product and

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there's good reasons to do discovery.

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And on the other side of the

fence, we want to qualify, we

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want to extract information.

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you address that tension a little bit in

your description of how you design the

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discovery process, but how do you like.

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Walk that line between like we need

some information to make sure that

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we are heading in the right direction

and that you know We know what your

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problem is you're trying to solve

versus you don't want to sit there

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and play 20 questions as a buyer.

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You want to see the product quickly

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Kyle Asay: think it is how you

set up the objective for the call.

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And I've been pretty passionate about

this for the long time because the

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buyer is thinking, How can you help me?

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How are you different?

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And how can you prove it?

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The entire time.

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There's that skepticism.

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There's these fears of, you're

gonna try to oversell me.

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You're gonna say you're the right fit.

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You don't know me, so I like to

be very clear from the beginning.

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job today is to figure out if

I'm right in my hypothesis of the

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problems that we can solve for you.

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And then we're going to leave the

call with you having a pretty good

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understanding of how we would go about

solving those problems, so you can decide

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if you want to continue the conversation.

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Now, before I can go show you

specifically how we might solve those

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problems, I do need a little bit

of context for how you're currently

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managing insert use case for us is

how you're releasing software, right?

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I'm never going to be so bold as to say.

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We are the best solution for everybody.

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That'd be a disservice to you.

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And so while I think we might be a

good fit, I'm not gonna tell you that

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we are until I better understand how

you're currently doing it, what the gaps

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are, what you'd like it to look like.

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but I'm given the commitment

upfront that we're not going

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to end the first call with.

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Okay, well, I just learned everything

about you that I wanted to know.

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I know that you know nothing about me

still, but let's schedule another hour.

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So then I can tell you how

I might be able to help.

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Some of the buyers are like,

nah, just send me a case study

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and I'll, I'll review it.

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Right.

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And so it's that balance of being upfront.

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I want to get to where you want

to get to as quickly as possible.

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Here's what I have to understand

before I can get you there accurately.

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Get the buy in, have that conversation.

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And then part of the deck that we have

is to sprinkle in some of the context.

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Here are the outcomes we drive.

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Here's actually a little

bit of the platform.

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Here's how it's constructed.

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Here's what it looks like.

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Here's how we're different.

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We're giving that context as

we go, so it feels more like a

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give and take conversation than

that 20 questions that you just

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mentioned, which is so

common in discovery.

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I just barrage you with questions.

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Then at the end, I give you this 30

second, like, Vomit spiel of a demo, kind

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of, and then I beg you for another call.

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Justin Norris: and you've kind of

alluded to that skepticism that uh a

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lot perhaps most buyers bring and I

thought I found personally like the best

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relationships I've had with sellers.

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They have been able to like build

some trust where I feel like my

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alliance almost shifts a little bit.

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Like obviously I'm always working

in the best interest of my company,

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but more like I feel a partnership

with the salesperson to try to get

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a deal done rather than like, we're

on opposite sides of the fence.

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how do you think about building that

trust, either as a seller or, things that

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you have your team do to build that trust?

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Kyle Asay: So trust and rapport,

I think are two different things.

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Just call it that part of my philosophy.

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Cause I was never one for being

great at small talk, right?

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So that's not how I went

about building trust.

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I think trust is feeling like the seller.

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Legitimately wants to find a good

outcome for you as a buyer, whether

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or not it's with their product.

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And this is really hard to do as a seller.

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When you're pressured to close deals,

it's really difficult to actually

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go authentically disqualify buyers.

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But I found that when buyers

give skepticism about something.

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Don't just disregard it.

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So yeah, that's valid skepticism.

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You should be worried about that.

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We actually have seen situations

where it didn't work out.

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Here's why, but calling out reasons why

you might not be a great fit for some

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people calling out reasons why they

may not be ready for your solution,

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calling out the risks and how you plan

to mitigate the risks are much better.

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Then, oh, we're so easy to implement.

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Everything always goes great.

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It's, hey, we get feedback that we're

pretty easy to implement, but here

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are some things that we see go wrong

that we want to get ahead of to make

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sure if you do move forward, you

don't experience the bad outcomes.

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Little subtle tweaks like that, showing

the buyer that we're not here to win at

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all costs, but we're here to actually

help them make a great decision.

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And if we're not the right

decision for them, end the

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conversation as soon as possible.

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So I can go back to where I

should be spending my time.

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There's a long way to build that trust.

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Justin Norris: It's interesting that

you differentiated trust and rapport,

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I hadn't thought of it that way before.

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is rapport still important from

your point of view, or is it

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just, it's like a separate thing?

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Kyle Asay: I think it depends on who

you're selling to, because there is

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the emotional element of sales, and

think it's very difficult to work

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with somebody that you don't enjoy

working with, but there are some people

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that great rapport is built because

you understand their business, you

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understand the outcomes they care about.

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For other people, great rapport is built

because you understand them personally.

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You understand what they like to

do, what their weekend plans are.

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Uh, what I have found though,

is most people on like the

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personality spectrum of, I want

a lot of personality and rapport.

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They're all kind of medium, right?

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And so for me as a very introverted

seller, there's only one deal

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that I can remember where I had

to really elevate my sociability.

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Because the buyer I was working with

was such an incredibly energetic,

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personable person, where if I had

tried to get right down to business,

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they probably would have shied away.

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So I had to go way above my comfort

zone on the rapport building aspect.

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But I found that most people are

more in the middle of the spectrum.

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And so I default to look like

rapport is great, but deals don't

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get closed in enterprise SaaS.

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Because they like you as a person deals

get closed because you add value now

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You're going to get the chance to prove

you can add value a lot more frequently if

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they like you So you can't just be a jerk

and just go right to the business, right?

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Like if they don't like you they're

not going to give you the chance to

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even go prove it But if I had it just

one or the other I'm going with trust

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because people buy from people that

they trust to actually deliver the

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outcomes that they claim they can.

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Justin Norris: 100%.

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this is a tangent, but I'm curious,

because you mentioned being an introverted

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seller, and I probably could have guessed

that by the name of Um, and yet, very

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comfortable on camera, making videos,

putting yourself out there all the time,

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trying to reconcile that a little bit.

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Like, is it, a conscious going

against, the introversion that you,

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feel or, uh, how do you navigate that?

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I suppose.

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Kyle Asay: So I can do it.

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It just exhausts me.

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And so as an introvert, I get my energy

from being alone, doing quiet things.

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But when I'm doing my job, like if I

have to go give presentations to a large

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group, if I have to go lead all hands

calls, if I have to go to an office

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and get people excited about what we're

building together, I can go do that

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and people will think I'm an extrovert.

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What they don't see is when I'm at like

a multi day training somewhere for our

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company, as soon as I finish my three

hour presentation while everybody else

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goes to get snacks and mingle, I'm going

straight back to my hotel room, falling

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onto my bed, and just like decompressing

for that 30 minute break before going

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back to leave more presentations.

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So I can do the videos, I can

do everything I need to do.

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It's just, it's not how I get

energized, it's how I get drained.

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I also enjoy doing it, ironically.

365

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It just comes back down to where I

get energy versus where I need to

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go, what I need to go recover from.

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Justin Norris: yeah, I'm the exact

same way and I mean, I could ask

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myself the same question because

there I am doing a podcast, but I go

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to like a conference or something.

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I'm back at the hotel room as soon as

the trade floor closes and just sort

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of putting myself in that, vacuum,

getting some space so I can relate

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completely to what you're saying.

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I want to dive bit more deeply again

onto the sales management side.

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And I think this is a common truth across

any role, but perhaps specifically in

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sales, there can be like a promote to

failure thing where you have superstar.

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I see you say, great, let's make

them a manager, become a manager.

377

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and they fail at it either because

they're not prepared or maybe they

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don't actually enjoy that work.

379

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You've made that leap successfully.

380

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what did it involve for you?

381

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Kyle Asay: It involved a heavy

reliance on documentation.

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And so what I found is, I generally knew

what I was doing to have success, but

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until I really sat down and methodically

wrote out what I was doing to have

384

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success, it was difficult to teach it.

385

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So I began to document all the

stuff I was doing, the way I ran

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discovery, the way that I ran demos,

the way I did territory management.

387

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As I wrote it out, it forced me to

actually understand what, how, and

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why I acted the way that I did.

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Then as I was able to teach

it in a more clear way, it was

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easier for people to adopt.

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And then I had to go through the

transition of understanding that,

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well, okay, just so I can teach it

clearly and it works for me, doesn't

393

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mean that everybody can apply it

the exact same way that I have.

394

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So then it had to become more nuanced.

395

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How did I manage different

people differently?

396

00:19:10,481 --> 00:19:14,821

And it all, grew from there, but it

started with pressure in myself based

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00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:18,911

on mentorship from one of my leaders,

Kyle, you know how to sell, but you got a

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good figure on teach others how to sell.

399

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And documentation became one of

the best things I have done for

400

00:19:26,036 --> 00:19:29,226

myself as I transitioned from

an IC to a sales leader role.

401

00:19:29,686 --> 00:19:30,966

Justin Norris: Is that common with others?

402

00:19:31,026 --> 00:19:33,736

Because that's like a very rev

up such answer like documentation

403

00:19:33,736 --> 00:19:34,586

and probably like that.

404

00:19:35,046 --> 00:19:36,066

I love to hear that.

405

00:19:36,376 --> 00:19:39,231

It isn't something I always see

from other sales leaders that

406

00:19:39,231 --> 00:19:40,541

I've worked with in the past.

407

00:19:40,541 --> 00:19:41,741

Is it common in your experience?

408

00:19:41,741 --> 00:19:42,691

Or is that more of a you thing?

409

00:19:42,872 --> 00:19:45,064

So

410

00:19:45,284 --> 00:19:48,544

Kyle Asay: that I meet with that wants

advice on career progression, whether

411

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they want to be an enterprise IC and

a strategic accounts rep or a leader.

412

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Because people that are able to clearly

articulate how they have success are

413

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more likely to be promoted than someone

that has success, but can't define

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why, and some of them wants to go into

leadership, having a documented process.

415

00:20:06,819 --> 00:20:10,382

I mean, talk about how easy my interviews

are, when I go into new companies.

416

00:20:10,392 --> 00:20:11,842

So they ask me, what's

your process for this?

417

00:20:11,922 --> 00:20:12,552

I just show them.

418

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How do you coach?

419

00:20:14,252 --> 00:20:15,092

Here's my framework.

420

00:20:15,482 --> 00:20:16,842

How do you do performance management?

421

00:20:16,902 --> 00:20:17,612

I wrote this.

422

00:20:17,932 --> 00:20:21,122

I just pull up everything that I do

and it's very easy to articulate.

423

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And then when I'm asked to

describe it, it sounds like it's so

424

00:20:25,072 --> 00:20:28,472

straightforward and clear, but it's

just because I've written it out so

425

00:20:28,472 --> 00:20:31,531

many times So if you're not doing it

today, do it because it'll pay off.

426

00:20:31,531 --> 00:20:35,371

No matter what your career path is,

sales, rev ups, marketing, document

427

00:20:35,381 --> 00:20:37,191

what you do that works and doesn't work.

428

00:20:37,561 --> 00:20:39,581

Cause then when people

ask you, how do you do it?

429

00:20:39,601 --> 00:20:40,901

And you give them a clear answer.

430

00:20:41,271 --> 00:20:44,441

If you're like me, you'll look

smarter than you actually are, which

431

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has great benefits to a career.

432

00:20:46,433 --> 00:20:48,713

Justin Norris: taking it up for a

second because I'm a big fan of first

433

00:20:48,733 --> 00:20:50,533

principles and I like define things.

434

00:20:50,903 --> 00:20:51,843

How do you think about?

435

00:20:52,293 --> 00:20:54,843

The job of a sales leader, like,

aside from like hitting the number,

436

00:20:54,843 --> 00:20:55,953

like that's your job, obviously.

437

00:20:55,953 --> 00:20:59,893

But in terms of like what you need

to focus on and do, how do you,

438

00:20:59,903 --> 00:21:01,413

what's your North star as a leader,

439

00:21:01,986 --> 00:21:04,926

Kyle Asay: one of the people leaders I

had early in my career was big on this.

440

00:21:04,926 --> 00:21:06,266

So if he's listening, he'll be proud.

441

00:21:06,276 --> 00:21:09,576

Uh, your job as a manager, whether

you're in sales or not is to drive an

442

00:21:09,576 --> 00:21:14,046

aligned result for sales, the support and

aligned results is going to be revenue.

443

00:21:14,626 --> 00:21:18,186

The way you drive towards revenue

is you're going to be recruiting and

444

00:21:18,186 --> 00:21:22,806

retaining great talent in order to

recruit and retain great talents.

445

00:21:22,866 --> 00:21:26,856

You need to be able to develop people,

motivate people and hold them accountable.

446

00:21:27,286 --> 00:21:30,806

But if I bucket out the job of a sales

leader is charged with that foundational

447

00:21:30,806 --> 00:21:33,956

layer, recruit and retain great people.

448

00:21:34,386 --> 00:21:38,655

Which requires developing people, hold

them accountable to hit their ceiling.

449

00:21:39,045 --> 00:21:43,295

If you do those things, revenue follows,

and then the aligned results of quota

450

00:21:43,345 --> 00:21:47,715

attainment, high percentage reps sitting

quota, highly engaged sales teams,

451

00:21:47,715 --> 00:21:50,995

high retention, all those things fall

into place with those focus points.

452

00:21:51,481 --> 00:21:54,692

Justin Norris: you talk about recruit

and retain, and, a lot of that can

453

00:21:54,692 --> 00:21:57,092

come back to who you are as a manager.

454

00:21:57,092 --> 00:21:59,472

And I know when we think about sales

managers, you know, if you watch like

455

00:21:59,472 --> 00:22:03,202

corporate bros videos, sales managers

don't come off super well, or even

456

00:22:03,202 --> 00:22:06,132

in some of your own videos, you kind

of satirize yourself a little bit.

457

00:22:06,633 --> 00:22:09,169

Just sitting there, you know, asking

people to update their dashboards.

458

00:22:09,687 --> 00:22:11,278

but it kind of does

relate to a real thing.

459

00:22:11,288 --> 00:22:13,648

There are some toxic

sales managers out there.

460

00:22:13,648 --> 00:22:15,848

There's some managers that

people don't like to have.

461

00:22:16,428 --> 00:22:20,658

obviously you can't just be buddy buddy

all the time, but being loved, not

462

00:22:20,658 --> 00:22:23,606

feared, and yet getting the result that

you want, how do you figure that out?

463

00:22:24,036 --> 00:22:28,966

Kyle Asay: Part of it is recruiting the

right people because the right people are

464

00:22:28,966 --> 00:22:33,426

going to be good with being challenged and

held accountable to the right behaviors.

465

00:22:33,706 --> 00:22:35,836

If you, recruit and

retain the wrong people.

466

00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:39,426

Then you're going to be forced to

balance being the friend versus

467

00:22:39,506 --> 00:22:43,156

being the cheerleader, and it's

very difficult to go have the hard

468

00:22:43,186 --> 00:22:44,756

conversations around accountability.

469

00:22:45,176 --> 00:22:47,961

So right people really is the

foundational pillar there.

470

00:22:48,411 --> 00:22:52,071

Then from there, when you have the

right people that want to be challenged,

471

00:22:52,071 --> 00:22:58,231

want to get better, I hold myself to

as high of a standard for developing

472

00:22:58,261 --> 00:23:02,691

my people as I hold them accountable

to the effort I need to be successful.

473

00:23:03,191 --> 00:23:05,958

And so I, love to go do

call reviews with reps.

474

00:23:06,008 --> 00:23:07,798

I love to go diagnose their deals.

475

00:23:07,828 --> 00:23:08,668

I love to go help.

476

00:23:09,028 --> 00:23:10,938

I love to go help with

pipeline generation.

477

00:23:10,938 --> 00:23:11,828

I'll send LinkedIn videos.

478

00:23:11,878 --> 00:23:12,788

I'll make cold calls.

479

00:23:12,828 --> 00:23:15,288

I'm not great at those things

right now, but I'll still try.

480

00:23:15,338 --> 00:23:18,458

I want to do the work so that

people know that I'm brought in.

481

00:23:18,908 --> 00:23:20,008

But what I've found.

482

00:23:20,223 --> 00:23:24,073

Is when you're all in on developing

people when you're very clear on

483

00:23:24,073 --> 00:23:28,893

expectations and why they are expectations

and why they matter and the reps buy

484

00:23:28,893 --> 00:23:32,983

in that they matter, but you combine

great development focus and great

485

00:23:32,983 --> 00:23:35,213

accountability to the right metrics.

486

00:23:36,043 --> 00:23:41,813

Then you get reps that progress, begin to

see wins, as they begin to see wins, they

487

00:23:41,813 --> 00:23:43,513

buy in more to what you're rolling out.

488

00:23:43,913 --> 00:23:47,913

That gives you the license to roll out

more changes, more improvements, which

489

00:23:47,913 --> 00:23:50,263

leads to increased adoption, more winning.

490

00:23:50,353 --> 00:23:53,863

And then you do this right, and six

to nine months after rebuilding the

491

00:23:53,863 --> 00:23:57,573

sales org, you're going to have a group

of people that are thinking, okay.

492

00:23:57,838 --> 00:24:01,128

There is no company I can work for

right now where I'm going to learn

493

00:24:01,138 --> 00:24:02,558

as much as I'm learning today.

494

00:24:02,978 --> 00:24:05,548

There's no company I can work for

right now that's going to challenge

495

00:24:05,558 --> 00:24:07,488

me as much as I'm challenged today.

496

00:24:08,058 --> 00:24:09,438

And then why would they

want to leave at that point?

497

00:24:10,109 --> 00:24:13,169

Justin Norris: You talk about the

right people and coachability,

498

00:24:13,169 --> 00:24:16,009

obviously based on what you're

saying is a very important part.

499

00:24:16,494 --> 00:24:20,295

What other criteria do you look

at to identify the right people?

500

00:24:20,821 --> 00:24:23,931

Kyle Asay: So right people

will vary based on the company

501

00:24:23,931 --> 00:24:25,171

that you sell for right now.

502

00:24:25,171 --> 00:24:28,281

What is consistent for me is the traits.

503

00:24:28,551 --> 00:24:29,971

So you're looking for coachability.

504

00:24:29,981 --> 00:24:31,573

You're looking for high EQ.

505

00:24:31,833 --> 00:24:34,023

You're looking for grit, work ethic.

506

00:24:34,033 --> 00:24:37,273

Like I never want to have reps

that I need to remind to work hard.

507

00:24:37,363 --> 00:24:39,033

I don't want to prod people along.

508

00:24:39,393 --> 00:24:42,123

That's not a good use of my

time or their time so that the

509

00:24:42,123 --> 00:24:43,673

traits are pretty consistent.

510

00:24:44,243 --> 00:24:48,103

Where it differs a little bit based

on the company that I lead for are the

511

00:24:48,103 --> 00:24:52,483

skills because transferable skills do

matter when you're looking at complex

512

00:24:52,483 --> 00:24:54,863

sales cycles and larger deal sizes.

513

00:24:55,203 --> 00:24:58,823

And so for me, I'm looking for proven

understanding of sales process.

514

00:24:59,153 --> 00:25:03,123

It doesn't have to be my sales process,

but it does need to be an understanding

515

00:25:03,363 --> 00:25:05,313

of how to methodically approach a deal.

516

00:25:05,313 --> 00:25:07,473

So I'm not starting from

scratch with a seller.

517

00:25:07,913 --> 00:25:10,523

I need to have a proven

ability to generate pipeline.

518

00:25:10,653 --> 00:25:12,163

They need to know how to cold call.

519

00:25:12,333 --> 00:25:15,453

Do good emails, use multi

channel, and they need to have

520

00:25:15,453 --> 00:25:17,043

some level of technical acumen.

521

00:25:17,203 --> 00:25:18,343

We sell to developers.

522

00:25:18,401 --> 00:25:23,151

Developers do not inherently love talking

to salespeople, and you quickly lose

523

00:25:23,151 --> 00:25:25,361

them if you have no grasp of their world.

524

00:25:25,721 --> 00:25:29,461

And so while I don't expect a seller to

come in understanding our product from day

525

00:25:29,461 --> 00:25:33,801

one, I do need them to have some level of

understanding of the technical landscape

526

00:25:34,131 --> 00:25:36,141

or the ability to quickly learn it.

527

00:25:36,536 --> 00:25:39,346

So when I'm hiring, I'm looking

for all the traits I care about.

528

00:25:39,386 --> 00:25:40,496

Those are non negotiable.

529

00:25:40,896 --> 00:25:44,386

And then I'm looking for at least

two of the three transferable skills,

530

00:25:44,906 --> 00:25:48,556

because if I hire somebody with all

the right traits and none of the

531

00:25:48,556 --> 00:25:53,746

skills, they will ramp so slowly that

they will likely get discouraged and

532

00:25:53,746 --> 00:25:55,336

give up before they have success.

533

00:25:55,746 --> 00:26:00,096

If I get somebody with the right traits

and at least 3 skills, they'll ramp

534

00:26:00,096 --> 00:26:03,236

quickly enough to have that motivation,

that desire to keep going, and will

535

00:26:03,236 --> 00:26:04,826

be set up for success within the org.

536

00:26:05,081 --> 00:26:07,711

Justin Norris: I like the division

between traits and skills.

537

00:26:07,721 --> 00:26:09,961

Skills obviously are

things that are learned.

538

00:26:09,991 --> 00:26:12,733

Nobody, comes into the

world with those skills.

539

00:26:13,113 --> 00:26:18,383

In terms of traits, do you think that

people are kind of born with them or

540

00:26:18,403 --> 00:26:22,393

are those things as well, refined and,

learned over time, in your opinion?

541

00:26:22,393 --> 00:26:24,067

In other words, are great

sellers born or made?

542

00:26:24,583 --> 00:26:26,103

Kyle Asay: Great sellers

are definitely made.

543

00:26:26,403 --> 00:26:29,423

I think there's some element of

traits that's DNA related, but I

544

00:26:29,423 --> 00:26:33,493

think a lot of people, I have talked

to people that have incredible grit.

545

00:26:33,808 --> 00:26:37,349

that have come from, very

privileged backgrounds and

546

00:26:37,379 --> 00:26:38,639

very difficult backgrounds.

547

00:26:38,802 --> 00:26:42,665

I've seen people from all situations

that exhibit incredible traits and a

548

00:26:42,665 --> 00:26:46,135

lot of it is from the circumstances

that they fought through with

549

00:26:46,145 --> 00:26:47,315

things that they learned, right?

550

00:26:47,315 --> 00:26:52,065

And so I'm not a biologist, I'm not

an expert in that area, but for the

551

00:26:52,065 --> 00:26:54,175

question, are great sellers born or made?

552

00:26:54,175 --> 00:26:55,115

I think they're made.

553

00:26:55,660 --> 00:26:59,110

Because a lot of the, traits are

things that can be developed.

554

00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,810

And a lot of the skills are

things that can be learned.

555

00:27:02,110 --> 00:27:06,000

And I have seen some reps

that day one, when I met them,

556

00:27:06,010 --> 00:27:07,200

I was like, there's no way.

557

00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:12,000

And then a year later, they're crushing

it because they wanted to work that

558

00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,730

hard and they wanted to get better.

559

00:27:14,020 --> 00:27:16,179

And they completely changed their skills.

560

00:27:16,179 --> 00:27:20,206

I recently had, a rep where the

feedback to me was, Hey, that this

561

00:27:20,216 --> 00:27:21,486

person doesn't interview well.

562

00:27:22,466 --> 00:27:24,721

they've interviewed before and

they're just really poor at it.

563

00:27:25,231 --> 00:27:28,021

And then they interviewed and they did

great because they had worked, they

564

00:27:28,021 --> 00:27:33,451

gotten that feedback and they worked

so hard to prove us wrong in that area.

565

00:27:34,071 --> 00:27:37,991

And it's a great example of someone that

probably wasn't born to be a natural

566

00:27:37,991 --> 00:27:40,911

salesperson or natural interviewer,

but now I'm betting on them to be

567

00:27:40,911 --> 00:27:44,311

a top performer in my org because

of how gritty they were to go push

568

00:27:44,311 --> 00:27:45,621

through those areas and get better.

569

00:27:45,991 --> 00:27:46,571

Justin Norris: That's awesome.

570

00:27:47,443 --> 00:27:48,923

thinking about top performers.

571

00:27:49,423 --> 00:27:53,463

I don't know, but I imagine when you

were in IC, there were maybe times

572

00:27:53,493 --> 00:27:58,903

where, you saw a shortcut, you know,

in the process, or you saw a way of

573

00:27:58,903 --> 00:28:03,421

getting the result that you wanted that

wasn't, standard operating procedure.

574

00:28:03,421 --> 00:28:07,403

And observed as a common

trait of great sellers.

575

00:28:07,403 --> 00:28:08,533

Like they'll just, you know, we had a.

576

00:28:08,993 --> 00:28:10,223

I work with BDR's all the time.

577

00:28:10,253 --> 00:28:13,123

We had a BDR and she was showing

us something she was doing and

578

00:28:13,123 --> 00:28:15,213

she's like, yeah, I just, you

know, I delete the subject line.

579

00:28:15,213 --> 00:28:16,663

I use this because I find it doesn't work.

580

00:28:16,663 --> 00:28:19,413

Like they just instinctively will,

correct for things that aren't working.

581

00:28:19,883 --> 00:28:20,753

And that's really valuable.

582

00:28:20,773 --> 00:28:23,535

At the same time, you want people

to kind of follow a process.

583

00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,287

how do you, a, do you observe

the same dynamic, I guess?

584

00:28:26,287 --> 00:28:30,297

And, and B, how do you sort of use the

energies of those people appropriately

585

00:28:30,297 --> 00:28:33,087

that are kind of a little bit maverick,

but often with a positive result?

586

00:28:33,531 --> 00:28:37,171

Kyle Asay: Yeah, I'm, uh, I'm really

big on the philosophy of flexible

587

00:28:37,171 --> 00:28:39,241

process or frameworks of a process.

588

00:28:39,241 --> 00:28:42,661

It's really just words and how

you define them technically.

589

00:28:42,741 --> 00:28:49,623

but the, prevailing philosophy on

it is great reps will adapt process.

590

00:28:50,008 --> 00:28:55,108

To best meet customers where they are, to

best meet a territory where it is, to best

591

00:28:55,128 --> 00:28:57,608

map to their, their current circumstance.

592

00:28:58,398 --> 00:29:03,068

As an IC myself, I had this turning

moment when I was so focused on

593

00:29:03,078 --> 00:29:07,138

memorizing the sales process and being

rigid with it and it not working,

594

00:29:07,558 --> 00:29:10,848

to paying attention to where did

the buyer disengage in this process?

595

00:29:10,858 --> 00:29:14,938

Okay, how can I tweak the process

based on where the buyer is today?

596

00:29:15,318 --> 00:29:17,308

Because not every buyer

is at the same stage.

597

00:29:17,368 --> 00:29:19,358

And my career took off from that point.

598

00:29:19,808 --> 00:29:22,678

So when I'm teaching sellers today,

a great example, again, is this new

599

00:29:22,678 --> 00:29:27,388

discovery deck we're using when reps

like, Oh, these slides in an order,

600

00:29:27,388 --> 00:29:29,958

these questions, I got to be free.

601

00:29:29,958 --> 00:29:30,708

I got to be flexible.

602

00:29:30,718 --> 00:29:31,538

Like I agree.

603

00:29:31,973 --> 00:29:32,873

I want you to be free.

604

00:29:32,873 --> 00:29:33,753

I want you to be flexible.

605

00:29:33,753 --> 00:29:35,733

I want you to change

the order of the slides.

606

00:29:35,773 --> 00:29:37,263

I want you to change the questions.

607

00:29:37,643 --> 00:29:42,563

But you can't make the process flexible

until you have mastered the process.

608

00:29:43,053 --> 00:29:45,873

And so if I have reps that are skipping

through the process because they

609

00:29:45,873 --> 00:29:47,583

don't understand it, that concerns me.

610

00:29:48,043 --> 00:29:51,447

Because they're probably finding shortcuts

that are not going to consistently work.

611

00:29:51,947 --> 00:29:55,997

If I have sellers that understand the

process so well that they're adapting

612

00:29:55,997 --> 00:30:01,667

it, Based on the campaign, based on the

buyer, based on the deal, that to me

613

00:30:01,667 --> 00:30:05,227

is as close to sales perfection as you

can get, because the foundation is good

614

00:30:05,497 --> 00:30:09,907

because the process is good, but we're

recognizing that every deal has nuance.

615

00:30:09,977 --> 00:30:14,267

Every deal has changes, but reps, before

you want to go try to have nuance.

616

00:30:14,662 --> 00:30:17,842

Get good at the foundation,

understand the foundation.

617

00:30:18,082 --> 00:30:21,192

Otherwise, you're just making stuff up

and that's not gonna work very well.

618

00:30:22,062 --> 00:30:24,862

Justin Norris: So once you know

the rules, you can break the rules.

619

00:30:25,787 --> 00:30:26,647

In other words, is what I'm

620

00:30:26,717 --> 00:30:27,167

Kyle Asay: bend,

621

00:30:27,577 --> 00:30:27,967

I'm gonna go

622

00:30:27,967 --> 00:30:28,477

with bend.

623

00:30:29,127 --> 00:30:30,127

Justin Norris: You can flex, you

624

00:30:30,127 --> 00:30:30,297

can

625

00:30:30,357 --> 00:30:30,627

Kyle Asay: Yeah.

626

00:30:31,149 --> 00:30:32,379

you and, and you should,

627

00:30:32,469 --> 00:30:32,829

right?

628

00:30:32,917 --> 00:30:37,467

you should flex things because if you're

in complex sales by nature of the job.

629

00:30:37,742 --> 00:30:42,709

Scripts don't work, Like in some

transactional sales, sure, a script works.

630

00:30:42,719 --> 00:30:46,709

Go master the script, master the

intonation, master the body language,

631

00:30:46,709 --> 00:30:48,689

but in complex sales, scripts don't work.

632

00:30:49,589 --> 00:30:52,399

But if you're just trying to wing it,

and you don't have a strong foundation

633

00:30:52,399 --> 00:30:55,709

of outcomes to drive and how to

drive them to work off of, You're

634

00:30:55,719 --> 00:30:58,899

really going to struggle creating

sustainable, consistent success.

635

00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,050

Justin Norris: I alluded in the intro

a little bit to the challenge and the

636

00:31:02,060 --> 00:31:06,517

pressure of being the sales leader and

I truly believe that I'm in forecast

637

00:31:06,527 --> 00:31:09,637

pipe review meetings where there's good

weeks There's bad weeks and the sales

638

00:31:09,637 --> 00:31:11,209

leaders got to step up and speak to it.

639

00:31:11,579 --> 00:31:12,529

That's a lot of pressure.

640

00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,890

Psychologically It's a kind of heavy

weight maybe to carry all the time.

641

00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:17,510

How do you?

642

00:31:17,611 --> 00:31:18,251

Think about that.

643

00:31:18,251 --> 00:31:19,141

How do you deal with it?

644

00:31:19,141 --> 00:31:20,591

Is it just something you get used to?

645

00:31:20,964 --> 00:31:22,294

Kyle Asay: I don't know

that you get used to it.

646

00:31:22,444 --> 00:31:26,748

I think you learn to adapt and,

improve your mindset towards it.

647

00:31:27,198 --> 00:31:30,989

I've definitely had periods

of pretty significant struggle

648

00:31:31,179 --> 00:31:32,819

with anxiety and stress from it.

649

00:31:33,339 --> 00:31:35,609

But, the book that I read that

I'm sure many have read the

650

00:31:35,609 --> 00:31:37,109

subtle art of not giving enough.

651

00:31:37,515 --> 00:31:41,425

changed my perspective in a really

positive way to good problems to have.

652

00:31:41,835 --> 00:31:46,015

And so when I start to feel this

anxiety and stress about these numbers,

653

00:31:46,025 --> 00:31:49,645

I'm like, okay, Kyle, but look at

the problems you get to solve today.

654

00:31:49,645 --> 00:31:52,245

And think about how many people

would love to have the opportunity

655

00:31:52,245 --> 00:31:53,165

to solve these problems.

656

00:31:53,245 --> 00:31:57,505

And then I realized how lucky and

fortunate I am to get a play business

657

00:31:57,515 --> 00:32:01,025

in this capacity and have a team that

I enjoy working with, with a great

658

00:32:01,025 --> 00:32:02,445

company, with a great executive team.

659

00:32:02,895 --> 00:32:04,275

So yeah, there's lots of pressure.

660

00:32:04,740 --> 00:32:08,730

But for me personally, I would much

rather have the problem of pressure

661

00:32:08,890 --> 00:32:15,710

and stress tied to hitting challenging

targets than the pressure of not being

662

00:32:15,710 --> 00:32:19,650

challenged in a job or the the boredom

of not being challenged in a job or

663

00:32:19,660 --> 00:32:22,670

people that right now are struggling

to find work in a bad economy.

664

00:32:22,820 --> 00:32:23,780

That's stressful.

665

00:32:23,930 --> 00:32:25,500

That's way stressful, right?

666

00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:28,610

And so whenever I start to

feel that overwhelmed feeling.

667

00:32:28,985 --> 00:32:32,455

I take a big step back, I look

at it, and I put my stresses

668

00:32:32,455 --> 00:32:33,975

and problems into perspective.

669

00:32:34,475 --> 00:32:38,965

And when I zoom out, my problems and

stresses are pretty minuscule compared

670

00:32:38,965 --> 00:32:41,105

to what many people are facing.

671

00:32:41,555 --> 00:32:45,885

And I consider myself very fortunate to

have the problems that I do have to solve.

672

00:32:46,295 --> 00:32:49,551

And when that mindset flips,

the mood flips, the anxiety

673

00:32:49,551 --> 00:32:50,651

slips away a little bit.

674

00:32:51,086 --> 00:32:52,936

And this is a constant

remembrance of that.

675

00:32:53,106 --> 00:32:56,182

I also like to remind my team,

like we talk about goals, we have

676

00:32:56,182 --> 00:32:59,862

accountability on goals, but at the

end of the day, it's just a job.

677

00:33:00,472 --> 00:33:02,322

It's how we provide a

living for our families.

678

00:33:02,712 --> 00:33:03,902

Uh, we like our jobs.

679

00:33:03,902 --> 00:33:08,292

We want to perform well, but the worst

case scenario professionally is not

680

00:33:08,292 --> 00:33:10,592

necessarily a worst case scenario of life.

681

00:33:11,137 --> 00:33:12,257

We're going to succeed.

682

00:33:12,257 --> 00:33:15,777

We're going to fail at different

times, but it's just a job.

683

00:33:16,117 --> 00:33:18,867

We're lucky at the problems that we

have to solve and let's do the best

684

00:33:18,867 --> 00:33:21,407

we can together and try to have a

little bit of fun along the way.

685

00:33:21,787 --> 00:33:25,407

And that mindset has served me quite

well as I've moved into technically more

686

00:33:25,407 --> 00:33:29,692

stressful jobs in my career while still

maintaining somewhat of an even keel.

687

00:33:29,908 --> 00:33:31,058

Justin Norris: That's a

really healthy point of view.

688

00:33:31,674 --> 00:33:35,795

you put out a, uh, I thought it was

really funny video, satire of a day in

689

00:33:35,795 --> 00:33:39,654

the life of a sales leader, but I'm,

curious, maybe there's some similarities,

690

00:33:39,654 --> 00:33:42,654

maybe not, but what is, the real

day in the life look like for you?

691

00:33:42,664 --> 00:33:45,674

Like, how do you organize your time and

what are the things you, you focus on?

692

00:33:45,943 --> 00:33:47,563

Kyle Asay: Yeah, so a lot of meetings.

693

00:33:47,653 --> 00:33:50,743

If you want to be a leader

in sales, especially the

694

00:33:50,743 --> 00:33:52,213

second line, third line level.

695

00:33:52,453 --> 00:33:53,263

It's a lot of meetings.

696

00:33:53,443 --> 00:33:57,193

So I'm meeting with my leadership team

to understand the health of their team.

697

00:33:57,523 --> 00:33:58,853

We're talking about their people.

698

00:33:59,263 --> 00:34:00,283

We're talking about developments.

699

00:34:00,333 --> 00:34:03,293

We're talking about their quota

coverage, talking about numbers.

700

00:34:03,753 --> 00:34:05,913

A lot of meetings with the

cross functional leaders.

701

00:34:05,923 --> 00:34:10,612

So making sure we have alignment with

marketing enablement with rev ops.

702

00:34:10,623 --> 00:34:13,572

So a lot of making sure that the goals

that we're setting are complementary

703

00:34:13,572 --> 00:34:16,763

to each other and that we're rowing

the same direction, not different

704

00:34:16,763 --> 00:34:18,983

directions, a lot of interviews.

705

00:34:19,092 --> 00:34:23,101

So I spent a lot of time interviewing

candidates, a lot of time recruiting, but

706

00:34:23,101 --> 00:34:27,137

really most of my days are filled, With

nearly back to back meetings across the

707

00:34:27,137 --> 00:34:31,956

day and then I do the rest of my work

Uh when i'm not in meetings all day and

708

00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:35,397

that's just catching up on administrative

stuff like making sure that territory

709

00:34:35,397 --> 00:34:39,007

assignments are getting done Making

sure that compensation plans are all set

710

00:34:39,007 --> 00:34:42,797

correctly making sure that territories are

allocated to the right There's all sorts

711

00:34:42,797 --> 00:34:46,177

of things that go into that above and

beyond just the meetings but yeah a day

712

00:34:46,177 --> 00:34:52,657

in the life of a vps sales is uh, Probably

not as glamorous as many people might

713

00:34:52,687 --> 00:34:55,087

think it looks like it's a lot of zoom

714

00:34:55,735 --> 00:34:58,295

Justin Norris: You

manage both BDRs and AEs.

715

00:34:58,848 --> 00:35:00,088

there are full cycle AEs.

716

00:35:00,118 --> 00:35:02,238

There are ways of dividing up the role.

717

00:35:02,238 --> 00:35:06,108

How do you think about running a

motion across both those types of

718

00:35:06,108 --> 00:35:10,068

sellers and how to work with them

together in the most effective way?

719

00:35:10,294 --> 00:35:14,514

Kyle Asay: That is the right now big

question because I'm new to this world.

720

00:35:14,664 --> 00:35:16,784

This is my first time leading an SDR org.

721

00:35:16,784 --> 00:35:20,654

So my first priority as I came into

LaunchDarkly was to go hire somebody

722

00:35:20,984 --> 00:35:22,134

to help me build out that org.

723

00:35:22,144 --> 00:35:26,414

I found a great leader that has run

global SDRs before that reports to me

724

00:35:26,834 --> 00:35:28,994

and is helping us help us structure that.

725

00:35:29,824 --> 00:35:36,174

it's interesting because the SDR to

AE conflict is often AEs saying well

726

00:35:36,184 --> 00:35:37,934

the meetings I'm getting aren't good.

727

00:35:38,784 --> 00:35:42,744

So wasting my time with the SGR

saying, accept my opportunity.

728

00:35:43,124 --> 00:35:46,144

I hit my numbers and I get to

kind of sit in between the two.

729

00:35:46,684 --> 00:35:51,129

And I can have the mindset of, okay,

well, the STRs, I don't, want an org

730

00:35:51,189 --> 00:35:55,369

where I'm going and telling the CFO,

Oh, we generated 15 million a pipeline.

731

00:35:56,019 --> 00:35:58,129

And then he asks, well, how much closed?

732

00:35:58,129 --> 00:36:00,859

And I kind of whispered a really small

number and then kind of duck away.

733

00:36:00,904 --> 00:36:03,004

I want to have an org

that produces revenue.

734

00:36:03,074 --> 00:36:06,374

So part of that is a tight alignment

for what good looks like, but it's

735

00:36:06,384 --> 00:36:09,994

also recognizing that when an STR is

reaching out to an enterprise account,

736

00:36:10,434 --> 00:36:13,914

The first person we get a meeting

with is probably not going to be the

737

00:36:13,944 --> 00:36:15,854

end decision maker for a purchase.

738

00:36:16,324 --> 00:36:19,994

Part of the job of the AE is to go

hold those meetings and get a point of

739

00:36:19,994 --> 00:36:24,234

view for the account that we could then

use to go get hired in the account.

740

00:36:24,804 --> 00:36:27,294

And so I'm really trying to

find the right rhythm for that.

741

00:36:27,434 --> 00:36:30,574

How do we incentivize the right

behavior where AEs and SGRs

742

00:36:30,574 --> 00:36:32,444

actually work together on accounts?

743

00:36:32,809 --> 00:36:35,099

Rather than an AE delegating

accounts, they don't want to

744

00:36:35,099 --> 00:36:36,759

call themselves to the SDR.

745

00:36:36,759 --> 00:36:40,389

And then how do we make sure that we

look at the initial STR set and the

746

00:36:40,389 --> 00:36:46,209

account as the start to a broader

conversation, not a pass fail, is this

747

00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,359

the champion to drive forward a purchase

of our software for a six or seven

748

00:36:50,359 --> 00:36:52,329

figures within the enterprise account?

749

00:36:53,067 --> 00:36:57,017

the other aspect to it, I think besides

the revenue production piece is I really

750

00:36:57,017 --> 00:37:02,267

want the STR function to become the

main place I hire talent out of for AEs.

751

00:37:02,852 --> 00:37:06,462

And so a big part of that is building

out a sales readiness program where

752

00:37:06,462 --> 00:37:10,842

the SDR has come to my team, being the

best at pipeline generation, the entire

753

00:37:10,842 --> 00:37:15,482

business, they've mastered that, but also

being quite proficient with discovery.

754

00:37:15,672 --> 00:37:19,012

I don't need much more than that to

begin with, but I do want to close

755

00:37:19,022 --> 00:37:23,502

the gap from them just being good at

PG, not knowing discovery to day one,

756

00:37:23,672 --> 00:37:25,352

they can generate quality pipeline.

757

00:37:25,752 --> 00:37:30,782

And they can run quality discovery

and then loop in ecosystem to help

758

00:37:30,782 --> 00:37:32,302

support them the rest of the way.

759

00:37:32,802 --> 00:37:34,802

So a lot to figure out as I

760

00:37:34,802 --> 00:37:35,752

move into this world.

761

00:37:36,702 --> 00:37:40,467

but, it's fun having the different

perspectives of an AE leader as well

762

00:37:40,527 --> 00:37:43,877

as an SDR leader, as we think about

targets, incentives, how we hire,

763

00:37:43,877 --> 00:37:45,677

how we retain, all those aspects.

764

00:37:46,597 --> 00:37:49,957

Justin Norris: think about very similar

problems in my role, interestingly

765

00:37:49,957 --> 00:37:51,587

enough, and like finding that.

766

00:37:52,077 --> 00:37:56,017

Right place to put the dial where

like, you don't want AEs wasting their

767

00:37:56,017 --> 00:37:59,257

time, but you also want to, one of my

coworkers has a good example of like

768

00:37:59,267 --> 00:38:02,877

AEs who just want to like jump up

and like hover above the rim of the

769

00:38:02,877 --> 00:38:05,847

basketball net and just wait for the

ball to land there so they can, stuff it

770

00:38:05,847 --> 00:38:07,566

into the net and claim all the credit.

771

00:38:07,966 --> 00:38:12,496

how do you think about calibrating

the qualification criteria of what

772

00:38:12,496 --> 00:38:14,546

makes it through that gate to an AE?

773

00:38:14,886 --> 00:38:17,416

So it's neither too

stringent nor too loose.

774

00:38:17,791 --> 00:38:21,301

Kyle Asay: Right now we just have

a sales accepted opportunities,

775

00:38:21,771 --> 00:38:23,461

which is pretty early in the stage.

776

00:38:23,631 --> 00:38:26,968

the benefit to that is it's more

controllable for the STR function.

777

00:38:27,318 --> 00:38:31,258

I don't like having comp plans and

targets with too much of it being

778

00:38:31,268 --> 00:38:32,988

left up to another org to execute.

779

00:38:33,398 --> 00:38:36,960

the downside to that is it can

drive artificial behavior of just

780

00:38:36,970 --> 00:38:40,040

trying to land meetings that are

just good enough to be qualified.

781

00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:43,160

And so really it requires a

constant feedback loop from,

782

00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,570

Hey, we're hitting the targets.

783

00:38:45,985 --> 00:38:52,165

But for the stakeholders that might

work to force, does our hitting targets

784

00:38:52,315 --> 00:38:54,125

lead to meaningful outcomes for you?

785

00:38:54,655 --> 00:38:59,865

If not, then we need to continue to

qualify how we structure either the

786

00:38:59,875 --> 00:39:02,485

target or the definitions of the target.

787

00:39:02,815 --> 00:39:07,733

Or our approach all together maybe in

a future podcast, I'll be able to roll

788

00:39:07,733 --> 00:39:12,703

out the answer to SDR compensation

and modeling to align incentives.

789

00:39:12,703 --> 00:39:13,193

Perfectly.

790

00:39:13,193 --> 00:39:14,673

I don't have that answer today.

791

00:39:15,143 --> 00:39:16,423

I have some opinions on it.

792

00:39:16,453 --> 00:39:20,313

Like, I'm opposed to having a heavy

compensation model tied to quota,

793

00:39:20,465 --> 00:39:24,648

closed because it's too lagging

and too out of control for the SDR.

794

00:39:25,368 --> 00:39:28,788

I've also, though, seen downfalls to

having it being too premature in the

795

00:39:28,788 --> 00:39:33,358

sales cycle because it leads to a

lot of production, but not revenue.

796

00:39:33,928 --> 00:39:36,208

Because at the end of the day

right now, every business is

797

00:39:36,208 --> 00:39:38,928

looking at these different

functions, especially in revenue.

798

00:39:39,338 --> 00:39:42,368

And the question isn't, how

much pipeline do they generate?

799

00:39:42,648 --> 00:39:44,978

Or how many SQOs do they generate?

800

00:39:45,408 --> 00:39:46,788

But it's, what's the payback period?

801

00:39:47,688 --> 00:39:50,308

What is the cost of the org compared

to what is the production of the org?

802

00:39:50,853 --> 00:39:53,523

And so I really need to make sure that

as we're building out the infrastructure,

803

00:39:53,523 --> 00:39:57,323

the team, the approach of the team is

with revenue in mind and with development

804

00:39:57,323 --> 00:40:00,973

in mind, because if I can show the

organization of business, we're bringing

805

00:40:00,983 --> 00:40:06,593

revenue to the table, at least enough

to support the growth of the org and

806

00:40:06,763 --> 00:40:09,883

we're fostering the next generation

of great sellers at launch darkly.

807

00:40:10,278 --> 00:40:13,298

I will feel fantastic

about the SDR function.

808

00:40:13,604 --> 00:40:15,404

Justin Norris: when we think

about the role of the A.

809

00:40:15,424 --> 00:40:15,769

E.

810

00:40:15,769 --> 00:40:20,413

In terms of having ownership of the

full cycle, let's say alongside the BDR.

811

00:40:20,493 --> 00:40:22,123

There's kind of two points

of view I've observed.

812

00:40:22,123 --> 00:40:26,373

Like I've had Brian Lamont on the

podcast before he's a great AE and

813

00:40:26,373 --> 00:40:29,853

his point of view was, I always want

to have control over my own destiny.

814

00:40:29,853 --> 00:40:33,822

So I'm always going to do, some level

of, of outbound and pipe generation

815

00:40:33,832 --> 00:40:36,592

myself, there's an opposing point

of view I've seen expressed where

816

00:40:36,592 --> 00:40:39,982

it's like, that is, you know, a

waste of time of like a great ease.

817

00:40:39,982 --> 00:40:41,462

They should just be focused on closing.

818

00:40:42,002 --> 00:40:43,332

and so there's that duality.

819

00:40:43,962 --> 00:40:44,902

How do you think about this?

820

00:40:45,387 --> 00:40:47,767

Kyle Asay: I definitely align

more with my friend Brian on that.

821

00:40:47,996 --> 00:40:53,516

great AEs, like the top 1%, will

find a way to succeed against their

822

00:40:53,516 --> 00:40:58,846

number, with or without any support,

from inbound, partner, CES, whatever.

823

00:40:59,676 --> 00:41:04,686

I, I don't know though that it's possible

to build a decent sized sales org.

824

00:41:05,236 --> 00:41:10,106

In a complex environment where the AEs

are solely responsible for their pipeline.

825

00:41:10,586 --> 00:41:13,926

And so I love a company where

they recognize that, yeah, AEs

826

00:41:13,936 --> 00:41:17,816

need to generate pipeline, but

we also need to support them.

827

00:41:18,146 --> 00:41:19,436

And so I love a mix.

828

00:41:19,886 --> 00:41:21,231

the ratios can vary.

829

00:41:21,321 --> 00:41:25,101

but I am generally, if you can tell

me, hey, I can get your AEs 30 to

830

00:41:25,101 --> 00:41:30,591

40 percent of the way to their quota

between marketing, CS, partners, and SDR.

831

00:41:31,401 --> 00:41:35,591

And then we need AEs to go self

source that remaining 40 to 60%.

832

00:41:36,261 --> 00:41:40,571

I'm pretty comfortable with that because

what I found is AE source pipeline

833

00:41:40,931 --> 00:41:45,271

is generally higher quality than SDR

source pipeline, which makes sense.

834

00:41:45,321 --> 00:41:46,631

They're more senior reps.

835

00:41:46,911 --> 00:41:48,411

They better understand the territory.

836

00:41:48,461 --> 00:41:49,641

They better understand the product.

837

00:41:50,031 --> 00:41:52,051

That's just the reality

of experience in sales.

838

00:41:52,071 --> 00:41:56,051

So I already know that AE source

pipeline is going to be stronger

839

00:41:56,131 --> 00:41:58,361

than some of the support.

840

00:41:58,701 --> 00:41:59,861

Then inbound.

841

00:42:00,411 --> 00:42:01,871

We don't always have control over that.

842

00:42:01,931 --> 00:42:03,191

There's seasonality to that.

843

00:42:03,671 --> 00:42:07,581

And if, inbound plummets, and

your quota attainment plummets to

844

00:42:07,581 --> 00:42:11,031

the same degree, that's a problem

on how you control your destiny.

845

00:42:11,481 --> 00:42:14,361

And so I love AEs that recognize

that, yeah, I would love

846

00:42:14,541 --> 00:42:15,931

great support from inbound.

847

00:42:15,951 --> 00:42:18,831

I would love great

support from CES and SDRs.

848

00:42:19,311 --> 00:42:21,501

But if I don't get it, I'll

make up the difference.

849

00:42:22,361 --> 00:42:24,661

and that's a big topic

right now at LaunchDarkly.

850

00:42:24,661 --> 00:42:25,951

It's like, here's the support we get.

851

00:42:26,391 --> 00:42:27,551

Here's the gap to close.

852

00:42:27,926 --> 00:42:30,386

And here's what we have to

do as an AE org to get there.

853

00:42:30,796 --> 00:42:33,826

And a lot of the AEs are leaning

into it and they're blowing out

854

00:42:33,836 --> 00:42:35,236

those numbers they need to go get to.

855

00:42:35,236 --> 00:42:39,166

And I can't wait to see the revenue

results as we improve support from CS,

856

00:42:39,166 --> 00:42:42,946

as we improve support from SDR and they

maintain that focus on the pipeline.

857

00:42:43,386 --> 00:42:46,826

Those are AEs that hit 200 percent

of quota, not just a hundred percent.

858

00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:47,999

Justin Norris: It's a good place to be.

859

00:42:48,196 --> 00:42:51,820

I think I know your answer to this

question probably, but, AI SDRs, you

860

00:42:51,820 --> 00:42:56,890

know, you're going to replace your whole,

uh, SDR org with AI bots anytime soon.

861

00:42:56,970 --> 00:42:57,610

What are you thinking?

862

00:42:58,138 --> 00:42:59,728

Kyle Asay: I hope all

of our competitors do.

863

00:43:00,655 --> 00:43:05,715

I hope they go all in on the

AISDR in all seriousness, I think

864

00:43:05,715 --> 00:43:07,255

there are great tools being built.

865

00:43:08,185 --> 00:43:10,945

The problem is anything

that can be scaled.

866

00:43:11,465 --> 00:43:17,365

Saturates and anything that saturates,

even if it's really good is ignored.

867

00:43:18,015 --> 00:43:22,025

And so when I look at the channels

that work for us right now in PG, our

868

00:43:22,035 --> 00:43:27,025

best channels are the things that can

not be automated, can not be scaled.

869

00:43:28,275 --> 00:43:30,100

And so when I hear AI SDR.

870

00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:37,890

The goal is really personalized, really

value driven emails and messages at scale.

871

00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,250

Well, when all of a sudden the

buyer has hundreds of emails

872

00:43:42,530 --> 00:43:47,710

that are hyper personalized, very

valuable, very relevant, all of a

873

00:43:47,710 --> 00:43:51,680

sudden, by default, none of them

are personalized, none of them are

874

00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,440

valuable, and none of them are relevant.

875

00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,380

And so I've seen a lot of the data

on it where people see a quick spike

876

00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:01,340

as they uncover some of the low

hanging fruit, and then it decreases.

877

00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:07,570

For me and my org, there are no

plans to replace SDRs with AI agents.

878

00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:10,210

I'm really big on AI in sales.

879

00:44:10,384 --> 00:44:13,634

I'm doing some work right now with

Clay around territory management and

880

00:44:13,634 --> 00:44:15,724

my mind is blown at what I can uncover.

881

00:44:16,134 --> 00:44:19,414

But all of this is to accelerate

what we do with sellers.

882

00:44:19,829 --> 00:44:20,969

Not to replace.

883

00:44:20,979 --> 00:44:23,329

So you'll hear me say often,

I don't believe in shortcuts.

884

00:44:23,389 --> 00:44:23,869

I believe in accelerants.

885

00:44:24,939 --> 00:44:29,139

I want to use AI to accelerate my SDRs,

accelerate my AEs, make us more efficient.

886

00:44:29,879 --> 00:44:34,678

But the idea of replacing, maybe I'll be

burns, but I'm, I'm quite skeptical on

887

00:44:34,678 --> 00:44:36,488

that, at least for the foreseeable future.

888

00:44:37,013 --> 00:44:37,873

Justin Norris: No, I think you're right.

889

00:44:37,923 --> 00:44:40,661

And I think, as an accelerant, as an aid.

890

00:44:41,801 --> 00:44:46,581

As a way of automating, uh, work that

is repetitive, that can be automated.

891

00:44:47,163 --> 00:44:50,153

as an assistant, I think that makes

total sense, but yeah, the, the

892

00:44:50,163 --> 00:44:55,185

output that I've seen from evaluating

these tools, to fully, have a, AI

893

00:44:55,185 --> 00:44:58,918

SDRs, I've not seen anything that

I'd want to expose to my audience.

894

00:44:59,361 --> 00:45:01,661

let's think a little bit

about the relationship with,

895

00:45:01,661 --> 00:45:03,081

sales ops or with rev ops.

896

00:45:03,081 --> 00:45:04,241

We've alluded to it a few times.

897

00:45:04,251 --> 00:45:04,731

I've had.

898

00:45:05,101 --> 00:45:06,901

Cody Guymon on the show before.

899

00:45:06,901 --> 00:45:08,901

I know you worked with him at Qualtrics.

900

00:45:08,911 --> 00:45:13,326

He actually introduced us a great

revenue operator, really insightful guy.

901

00:45:13,906 --> 00:45:16,606

How have you, not necessarily with

him, but just in general, how have

902

00:45:16,606 --> 00:45:19,916

you thought about an experience,

this relationship with RebOps before?

903

00:45:19,916 --> 00:45:22,406

Sometimes there can be tension,

RebOps and sales leadership.

904

00:45:22,406 --> 00:45:23,776

Sometimes it can be a great partnership.

905

00:45:24,456 --> 00:45:26,416

What's your experience been like overall?

906

00:45:26,852 --> 00:45:28,872

Kyle Asay: it's one of the reasons

why I joined LongStar Arcly,

907

00:45:28,962 --> 00:45:31,432

because I interviewed with our

RevOps leader and I love the guy.

908

00:45:32,102 --> 00:45:35,212

Like, cause I, I view RevOps as

being a mission critical partner.

909

00:45:35,682 --> 00:45:37,562

I cannot make good decisions.

910

00:45:37,934 --> 00:45:40,966

without great data, or I can't

form a good hypothesis, I

911

00:45:40,966 --> 00:45:42,406

should say, without good data.

912

00:45:42,964 --> 00:45:47,685

I cannot structure an org and scale

an org through territory, through

913

00:45:47,685 --> 00:45:50,245

targets, without a great partnership.

914

00:45:50,705 --> 00:45:56,549

And so I view RevOps as being, the most

critical partner for what I do, because

915

00:45:56,549 --> 00:45:58,069

they helped me work better with marketing.

916

00:45:58,369 --> 00:45:59,649

They helped me work

better with enablement.

917

00:46:00,019 --> 00:46:02,609

They helped me work better with

every function that partners with

918

00:46:02,609 --> 00:46:06,929

sales and without strong rev ops, all

those things fall apart and we're no

919

00:46:06,929 --> 00:46:08,569

longer rowing in the right direction.

920

00:46:09,095 --> 00:46:11,775

I always joke that in a different

universe, there's another Kyle

921

00:46:11,775 --> 00:46:15,185

that's just a little bit smarter

than this version of Kyle.

922

00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:16,940

And he's our RevOps leader.

923

00:46:17,220 --> 00:46:18,050

He's not in the sales.

924

00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:18,960

He's in a RevOps.

925

00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:19,900

I love the stuff.

926

00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:23,480

And current, if you're listening

to this, uh, you know that I

927

00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:24,570

love working with your team.

928

00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,340

Y'all are, y'all are a highlight for me.

929

00:46:26,355 --> 00:46:28,705

Justin Norris: So there's probably some

rev ops folks listening to this right

930

00:46:28,705 --> 00:46:31,935

now that are thinking like, gosh, I

wish that I could have that sort of

931

00:46:31,935 --> 00:46:34,345

relationship with my, sales leader.

932

00:46:34,735 --> 00:46:38,582

And, obviously there's, the sales

leader themselves has a component part

933

00:46:38,582 --> 00:46:42,732

to play in that from the rev ops side,

what would your advice be, like if

934

00:46:42,732 --> 00:46:46,084

you were designing your perfect rev

ops partner, what would What are the

935

00:46:46,094 --> 00:46:50,284

things that they should do to provide

maximum value to you as a sales leader?

936

00:46:50,792 --> 00:46:51,834

Kyle Asay: transparency is big.

937

00:46:51,964 --> 00:46:54,654

Like, especially when you come

down to things like target setting.

938

00:46:54,944 --> 00:46:57,124

It's like, hey, when you share

targets with me, give me the

939

00:46:57,124 --> 00:46:58,044

assumptions you're making.

940

00:46:58,044 --> 00:46:59,694

Help me understand the

projections you're making.

941

00:47:00,169 --> 00:47:01,074

be human about it.

942

00:47:01,114 --> 00:47:02,284

Let's talk through things.

943

00:47:02,414 --> 00:47:05,174

Like, it's always nice when,

uh, when you're talking about

944

00:47:05,174 --> 00:47:06,554

quotas and you're understanding.

945

00:47:06,594 --> 00:47:08,444

You're, you're balancing

the needs of the business.

946

00:47:08,444 --> 00:47:10,454

You're balancing what morale will happen.

947

00:47:10,964 --> 00:47:15,142

With comp plan stuff, it's similar,

because as a senior sales leader, you

948

00:47:15,142 --> 00:47:17,292

don't want to over index to sales, right?

949

00:47:17,302 --> 00:47:20,592

You do want to run a healthy sales

work to support a growing company,

950

00:47:20,942 --> 00:47:23,682

but you also want to put out a plan

where your people can have tons of

951

00:47:23,702 --> 00:47:25,032

success and make a lot of money.

952

00:47:25,392 --> 00:47:29,782

And so having that transparency

aspect around target setting is huge.

953

00:47:30,202 --> 00:47:33,672

Uh, because oftentimes I've

seen RebOps teams make decisions

954

00:47:33,702 --> 00:47:35,082

off of bad assumptions.

955

00:47:35,557 --> 00:47:39,127

And we didn't hear about the assumptions

they made until it was already ruled

956

00:47:39,137 --> 00:47:40,617

out and a lot of damage was done.

957

00:47:41,027 --> 00:47:44,787

Had they shared assumptions up front

that went into the model, we could have

958

00:47:44,787 --> 00:47:47,897

challenged it in that moment, and we

could have come to a better conclusion.

959

00:47:48,287 --> 00:47:53,247

And so view it as a true partnership, not

as like this little curtain between the

960

00:47:53,247 --> 00:47:54,999

two where we have to kind of guard things.

961

00:47:55,469 --> 00:47:58,519

Because not all sales leaders are just

going to push for the lowest quota.

962

00:47:58,959 --> 00:48:02,329

Not all sales are going to go push

for the highest possible comp rates.

963

00:48:02,609 --> 00:48:06,309

We understand the balance to the

business, but if you're not transparent

964

00:48:06,369 --> 00:48:10,619

with everything going into the models,

you're going to miss out on valuable

965

00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:14,769

insight from the sales side that if

you understood would probably change

966

00:48:14,849 --> 00:48:16,139

those models and those projections.

967

00:48:16,149 --> 00:48:17,329

So that's the biggest piece.

968

00:48:17,349 --> 00:48:21,529

Be a partner, not a

policymaker and an enforcer.

969

00:48:22,269 --> 00:48:26,564

Justin Norris: Good advice Maybe just

in closing last question we have time

970

00:48:26,564 --> 00:48:30,829

for you've Built a really interesting

side hustle with sales introverts.

971

00:48:30,899 --> 00:48:32,039

a huge audience for yourself.

972

00:48:32,039 --> 00:48:34,799

You have 65, 000 followers on LinkedIn.

973

00:48:34,819 --> 00:48:36,459

You know, I see you all the time there.

974

00:48:36,459 --> 00:48:38,109

You get lots of engagement

in what you're doing.

975

00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:39,619

A lot of positive feedback.

976

00:48:39,619 --> 00:48:43,756

It looks like, just some lessons learned

building a side hustle, doing it myself.

977

00:48:43,756 --> 00:48:44,616

I know it's hard.

978

00:48:44,616 --> 00:48:47,406

You also have a family, you have a

lot of responsibility at your day job.

979

00:48:47,416 --> 00:48:48,432

How do you, figure that out?

980

00:48:48,877 --> 00:48:52,242

Kyle Asay: Yeah, my advice that

also goes to sales leadership too.

981

00:48:52,412 --> 00:48:56,922

It's I, I focus on what I

am uniquely able to do and I

982

00:48:56,932 --> 00:48:58,422

partner with others for the rest.

983

00:48:58,602 --> 00:49:02,082

And so with my, my business, I

have a great partner that does

984

00:49:02,092 --> 00:49:04,022

website stuff, automations.

985

00:49:04,477 --> 00:49:07,187

Product design, all sorts of things.

986

00:49:07,550 --> 00:49:10,670

the only things that I have to

worry about are content creation.

987

00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,750

And that's easy, because all I'm doing

is taking what I'm doing every day

988

00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:17,490

at my job, and then repurposing it

to be relevant to a larger audience,

989

00:49:17,500 --> 00:49:18,780

and not just a little universe.

990

00:49:19,302 --> 00:49:23,452

that I live in, uh, other lessons

that I've learned is not all the

991

00:49:23,452 --> 00:49:24,982

feedback I get is always positive.

992

00:49:25,082 --> 00:49:29,532

It doesn't happen often, but

sometimes I get very angry messages

993

00:49:29,532 --> 00:49:32,632

from strangers, uh, and I don't

understand it, but it's just part

994

00:49:32,632 --> 00:49:33,702

of when you put yourself out there.

995

00:49:34,012 --> 00:49:35,922

And so I've had to learn

to not worry about it.

996

00:49:35,922 --> 00:49:39,202

I'm trying to mature to the point where

when somebody is a jerk like that,

997

00:49:39,222 --> 00:49:42,662

they just ignore and not feel the need

to respond and I'm getting better.

998

00:49:42,682 --> 00:49:46,464

But my encouragement to people

is, The benefits to sharing what

999

00:49:46,464 --> 00:49:50,514

you've learned far outweigh the

negatives that might come from it.

1000

00:49:50,924 --> 00:49:52,594

So yeah, I think those are

really the main two things.

1001

00:49:52,594 --> 00:49:55,864

I've had to learn what do I have

to uniquely do, how do I get help

1002

00:49:55,864 --> 00:49:57,844

for the rest so I can scale myself.

1003

00:49:58,284 --> 00:50:02,223

And then, you're going to do things

that get positive feedback, you're

1004

00:50:02,263 --> 00:50:04,193

also going to get negative feedback.

1005

00:50:04,483 --> 00:50:05,143

Don't sweat it.

1006

00:50:05,795 --> 00:50:07,955

things with people that you

get positive feedback from.

1007

00:50:08,505 --> 00:50:10,955

Justin Norris: I'll have to say when

I was researching this episode, I

1008

00:50:11,035 --> 00:50:14,305

think I came across some Reddit thread

where somebody was saying something,

1009

00:50:14,315 --> 00:50:15,575

you know, mildly critical of you.

1010

00:50:15,575 --> 00:50:17,805

And you actually jumped into

that thread, responded to them.

1011

00:50:17,805 --> 00:50:18,645

And they're like, Oh, wow.

1012

00:50:18,645 --> 00:50:22,268

Like my point of view about you

has changed as a result of this.

1013

00:50:22,268 --> 00:50:25,308

So I think that was a masterclass

of, hugging your haters

1014

00:50:25,348 --> 00:50:27,228

and turning them into fans.

1015

00:50:27,608 --> 00:50:28,628

I thought that was really well done.

1016

00:50:29,215 --> 00:50:30,435

Kyle Asay: that guy was rational.

1017

00:50:31,045 --> 00:50:31,395

A lot of

1018

00:50:31,625 --> 00:50:33,405

Justin Norris: everybody

is rational out there.

1019

00:50:33,405 --> 00:50:34,355

I understand that too.

1020

00:50:34,962 --> 00:50:36,552

really appreciate you being on the show.

1021

00:50:36,652 --> 00:50:38,392

Super insightful, super useful.

1022

00:50:38,392 --> 00:50:41,564

If people want to find you,

they can look you up on LinkedIn

1023

00:50:41,574 --> 00:50:43,104

or go to sales introverts.

1024

00:50:43,704 --> 00:50:47,574

com tons of great resources

there, but yeah, thank you so

1025

00:50:47,574 --> 00:50:48,934

much for chatting with us today.

1026

00:50:49,571 --> 00:50:50,081

Kyle Asay: a pleasure.

1027

00:50:50,081 --> 00:50:52,411

Thank you for coming prepared

with so many awesome questions.

1028

00:50:52,411 --> 00:50:53,431

I really enjoyed the conversation.