Jamie Winship joins us on the podcast today for a phenomenal conversation.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, Jamie Winship notes the profound concept of identity and its foundational role in the lives of individuals, particularly those who adhere to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
• The discourse emphasizes the detrimental impact of fear, illustrating how it constricts our capacity for creativity and hinders our ability to receive new revelations.
• A significant theme explored is the necessity of asking God for insight in moments of fear, thereby allowing for the transformation of negative emotions into opportunities for growth and understanding.
• Listeners are encouraged to engage in a continuous process of confession, repentance, and transformation, as these elements are vital for spiritual maturity and clarity in one's identity.
• Jamie articulates the importance of distinguishing between the 'real me' and the 'false me,' highlighting how self-perception can either empower or detract from one's purpose in life.
• The episode invites individuals to reflect upon their fears and negative beliefs, urging them to seek divine truth as a means to overcome the lies that inhibit their potential.

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity insight, encouragement for life and mission.

And my name is Aaron Santemayr and I get to be your host.

Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on the podcast Jamie Winship.

Jamie and I got to spend some time together.

Him and his wife Donna were at in Cape Town with there for some Africa meetings and they both taught and we got to hear from them.

I was really challenged by what he shared.

And we're going to talk today about Jamie and Donna.

Help you understand identity and where we get our identity from and as followers of Jesus Christ, what that looks like and lies from the enemies and things that maybe we tell ourselves and believe about ourselves that aren't true.

Jamie also he highlights and he helps delineate what fear does and how fear can impact our lives.

And when we're living in fear rather than living fearlessly just how we're limited in what God is asking us to do.

Jamie really challenged me in those meetings.

He said, you know, just to stop and pause and ask the Heavenly Father what he's saying in those moments.

And Jamie and Don are both phenomenal storytellers.

Jamie, he tells stories, intertwines those with as he's speaking.

He's a phenomenal writer, he's multi talented, he comes from the background of being in the police force and he has great stories that just keep you engaged.

And honestly, he's a great spiritual leader that helps focus you and just realize what God is calling us to do and how we can hear from him and not being so rushed and so much in a hurry that we begin to live in anxiety and fear and we forget who our God is and just really was challenged by him.

So you're going to love the interview.

You're going to love the interview.

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They show up on my feed every Tuesday and I know what's going to be there for the week.

Also ask you to continue to send in your questions for Backchannel with Foth.

That's where I get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn.

We get to learn from him.

It's always fun to have Dick on the podcast going into five years with Dick on back channel with Foeth.

So it's been a great run and really appreciate you sending in the questions because that spurs on the conversation and gives Dick and I something to talk about and we want to answer questions that you're asking and so that that helps us to that end.

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Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to have a new friend of the podcast with us.

Jamie.

Jamie, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

It's an honor to be here with you.

Thanks for having me.

Jamie, you and I got to spend some time together in Cape Town and got to spend eat a few meals with you and it was phenomenal and got to learn from you a lot.

For those who didn't have the opportunity to be in Cape Town, maybe those who have not had the opportunity to meet you yet, will you share a little bit about yourself before I start asking you some questions?

Yeah.

So yeah.

Born in Washington, D.C.

decided in eighth grade through a pretty deep encounter with the Lord that I wanted to be a police officer.

Felt like that's where the Lord was inviting me.

Went into that, went to university, met my wife, went into the police department, learned in the police department.

Really focused on kind of how to hear from the Lord on the job, which was a new experience for me in that vocation in particular.

I came to faith when I was 17 from the witness of a nurse in a hospital.

So 23 into the police department.

Five years into the police department, really experimenting and trying to see how the Lord would use me there.

I got called by the State Department, interviewed by the State Department about what I was doing in the police department.

And then they basically offered me a position to go overseas, particularly in the Muslim world, which I took, but not in the way they offered, but they, they were.

That was the invitation that got me out of the police department, went to grad school.

And that's what we do now, is training and consulting based on identity transformation.

Really?

Wow.

Wow.

And it was like an I said honor.

Jamie has phenomenal stories and I might ask him a question.

He has the gift of storytelling and man, they're engaging and we learn so much from story and he's multi, multi talented.

And so Jamie, first question I got for you.

How does fear share about fear?

So how does fear shut down creativity and new ideas.

Yeah, yeah.

Fear, such an important topic.

And I don't know if we ever, really, even as believers, a lot of times we're just trying to get rid of fear like it's a nuisance.

But fear is a God given emotion.

It's incredibly valuable for our welfare.

And so we know on the one hand the fear of God, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.

And if you're, if you don't have a fear of the Lord, you're gonna, then your other fear will not be helpful to you.

So you have to have a place to take your fear too.

So the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

It's just, just the awe and reverence of God.

So fear in its beautiful sense, the value of fear is that fear is like a dashboard light going off that indicates something's wrong.

Basically it's an indicator that whatever it is that you're going to do or believe, the direction that you're going, whether it's an action, a thought process, whatever, the fear lights up warning you that it's destructive, that it's going to lead to some kind of harm.

So if you're, you know, when your babies are born, they're born with two and eight fears.

The fear of falling and the fear of loud noises.

Those are two hardwired fears built into us by God to protect us for survival, obviously.

And then all other fear is learned.

So that can be good.

You know, you learn not to walk out in the street when cars are coming.

You know, you learn to avoid, you know, deadly situations.

However, you also learn to fear things that you shouldn't be afraid of.

You learn so, so you'll learn to, for example, you'll learn something about yourself, for example, that's not true.

Like you're not smart or you don't, right?

And fear kicks in to warn you that if you accept that belief as true, it's going to hurt you.

So fear is incredibly valuable.

But what fear does though is it shuts down your ability to receive new information because it wants you to focus on this one thing that's going to hurt you.

It's like if you're walking towards a cliff and you're afraid of heights and you're walking towards a cliff and you're 50 yards away.

It is a little sort of, little feeling comes up like, ah, this could be dangerous if you go this way.

And the close closer you get, the louder the fear gets, the more consuming it gets to where you, the fear will actually paralyze you.

And so in that situation is saying the fear is saying the closer you get to this precipice you're going to die if you keep going.

And so the closer you get to it, the louder it gets.

Well, if that fear, if that fear is based in truth and in God, it's like he's warning you away from a situation that will hurt you or damage you or injure you.

But if it's a lie, the fear is warning you that the closer you get to believing that falsehood about yourself or God or the world you're in, then it's going to hurt you.

And you need to address the lie and it'll shut down all other ability to receive anything else.

So when you're in fear, it closes down your ability to create because you're not generating new ideas because the fear is so dominant, pointing you to address whatever the fear is pointing to so it has value you.

But if you don't address the fear, it's detrimental.

And if you make decisions based on fear, you'll make self protection and self promotion decisions rather than addressing the fear.

God, what do you want me to, why am I afraid?

What is it that you want me to know about this situation?

Letting the fear do its job.

And then once the, once the fear is addressed, it'll move, it'll, it's done, it's gone.

Then you can start receiving new information and so all kinds of scenarios.

But if you, if you can just imagine briefly like a kid who, like for myself I just, I learned pretty quickly that I wasn't good at math, for example.

Well that, that's never true.

A person may have to work harder in a particular subject than another person.

But it's not an identity like you're dumb or you're insufficient or you're inadequate in this subject.

But that fear, what the fear does is, wants you to address the lie that something's wrong with you mentally or that's what the fear wants you.

But if you just let the fear run and believe the lie, I'm not good at math.

You'll start to avoid math with everything that you have.

So you can't go in there and learn the fear's too great.

Of the belief that I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough.

And so you'll actually start to avoid math.

You'll make whole life decisions on, well I can't do that, I'm not good at that.

And that's where the fear is negative because the fear itself has become like the God, instead of just an emotion pointing towards a lie, it's become the thing that runs your life.

So a fear based life is very, it's very selfish.

It's very self focused and self protected.

So that's the, that's why you can't receive when you're in fear.

Wow.

And two things Jamie, you shared, you know asking.

One of the things I valued when you and Donna shared was this idea that you're very intentional about asking God, what, what God?

What are you saying to me in this moment?

Can you share a little bit about that?

Because I think sometimes as Christians, you know, we, we don't necessarily do that or we're not as intentional about it.

And as you shared and Donna shared it, it really challenged me to grow in that area.

So can you share a little bit about, because you shared about fear and you said, you know, you can, you talked about that.

How does that, how to asking God what he's saying in a moment or what he's doing in a moment, how does that impact our.

Yeah.

And that.

So then that's a great, you know, so negative emotion again because, because the enemy doesn't give negative emotion.

Negative emotion is, are things that are built into us by God for our good.

And so negative emotion when, when you feel negative emotion, the thing is.

Well, address it.

Like, don't, don't say, you know, I was raised like, you can't be afraid.

You're not allowed to be angry.

Like you're always asking God, make me brave, make me not angry.

Instead of saying Lord, instead of going to the Lord and saying, lord, I'm afraid right now.

What do you want me to know about the fear?

Like, what am I afraid of?

What is your pointing to in order that fear becomes valuable to you and not a detriment to you?

Right?

Just like anger.

Anger we know is a God emotion.

God gets angry.

God gets angry at injustice.

He doesn't want you to not be angry, but he wants you to understand anger in its most beautiful form.

Right?

And in your anger, don't sin.

In your fear, don't sin.

Don't let the anger or the fear become the God, the decision maker.

It's a tool.

And say, Lord, why am I angry?

Or what is the anger directed at?

Is it right?

Is it correct?

What am I afraid of?

Am I afraid that you're not going to show up in this situation?

Am I afraid that I'm inadequate?

And then that's what the Lord wants.

He wants to address your wrong belief that the fear is pointing To.

So if you don't ask that question, a lot of us, we're afraid, but we don't know why.

And the reason we think we're afraid is usually incorrect.

Like, I'm afraid that because, you know, those people can kill me.

Well, really, God is the one that determines life and death, not those people.

And so your fear is, is not of those people.

Although that's what you'll think your fear is actually that you believe that those people determine your future, which is what a lot.

A victim is a person who thinks someone else controls your future, which most of us believe at some level.

Either the government controls my future or the IRS controls my future, or you know, where someone else controls my future.

The economy controls my future.

And so the reason that produces anxiety in you is because it's a wrong belief about who controls your future.

Do you see?

And if you, and if God's like, look, let me just show you, I control your future, then the fear's gone.

And then you can receive God's leading.

And like, I want you to move to this country or I want you to move into this job because I'm in charge of your future, not this boss or this promotion or whatever.

So again, when you have that process of asking God for wisdom, that's what you're doing.

Yeah.

Then, then he gives you the wisdom and the wisdom liberates you and the fear has done its job and it just goes away until the next time you believe something that's not true.

Yeah, I just valued, you know, as you shared, Jamie was you.

This is an intentional part of your everyday life.

And you know, I think sometimes at the end of the day when I'm praying in the morning and pray in the evening, you know, you pray throughout the day.

But just the intentionality that is you shared it's really encouraged me and it honestly has really changed some of the rhythms in my life since February.

Just being intentional to stop and ask God what he's saying and for him to speak.

And that kind of leads me to one of my other questions I had for you was this idea that you share that acknowledging our fear opens us up to repentance and then for the fear to be transformed.

Do you have any more to share about that?

Yeah.

So that's the process that you see all through scripture where it's.

The process is confession, repentance, transformation.

It's this very simple process that's not like a one time thing.

It's just, it's a continuous thing.

So confession is just, is just Practicing truth telling.

And that's really hard to do because we don't know the depth of the kind of deception that we are raised in.

The, the worldview that we're raised in is based on a lie.

And so you're in a deception that you learn very young as if it's true.

And so like you can see all the disastrous effects of it, but you don't realize, well, where is all that coming from?

That's just the way it is.

That's just the way life is.

And I just remember hearing this yesterday, this doctor, these doctors were talking and one of the, he's an oncologist and he said, he said for the first time in his 50 year career, he, he saw an 11 year old with pancreatic cancer to never ever seen it before in a kid.

And they were asking him, well, why suddenly are you seeing it in children?

And he, he said it's because of this, the level of stress and anxiety that kids are in very young in our world because of social media and their body is reacting like it's 50 years old, like it's been this way forever.

And so, so when you're growing up in this kind of worldview, you have to keep telling the truth.

And it's those negative emotions as we keep saying.

Like I feel I'm in third grade and I'm suffering from anxiety.

Parents need to know how to help their kids walk through fear.

Tell the truth.

What are you afraid of?

Are you afraid of a subject?

The subject doesn't have any power.

What are you afraid of?

I'm afraid that I am not smart.

I'm afraid that the teacher doesn't like me teaching your kids, discipling your kids on how to walk through that fear by truth telling.

Okay, so where did you learn that you're not smart?

Well, I got an F in this says, okay, let's ask God, what do you want me to know about this test?

And that's the repentance part.

So your truth telling, confessing allows for God then to address what you believe that's false.

And you change the way you think, you change the direction that you're walking in.

And then transformation is, I'm going to walk this out in a new and different way.

So truth tell, mind change, form change, confession, repentance, transformation is a process you just want to be in.

So even for me, when I'm telling the truth about something and asking God, like change the way I think or turn me in the right direction the way you know it is that you Start walking it out differently.

That's, that's the, you know, by your fruit, they know you kind of thing.

So that simple process, confession, repentance, transformation, when are you in it?

You're in it all the time.

All the time.

Wow.

Wow.

Good word and challenging word.

Challenging word.

So Jamie, one of the.

You shared about silencing the room.

You shared some.

A story or two when we were together about silencing the room.

What does that mean, silencing the room?

And yeah, maybe if you have a story to share.

Yeah, well, I mean this.

So this is the thing when I was like a police officer and it's no different being a police officer than any vocation.

It's just, that's where I started because it's a little bit more extreme at times than maybe other vocations.

But so you get in these situations where there's a lot of chaos and there's a lot of noise going on in the situation and you're, you're de.

Escalating the situation or trying to, and tempers and emotions and fear is all over the place.

So it's like, if you can't physically restrain everybody, what can you do?

Like, how can you like take sort of command of the whole room?

And so watching Jesus come into chaotic situations and one thing I noticed and anyone would read is like, he tells.

It's like the demonic are announcing his identity and presence.

And he keeps telling them to be quiet, to be silent because he doesn't want them announcing him.

He, he wants, he wants God to be the one that announces who he is, not the enemy.

Because then the enemy co ops the message, right?

Like, and so the Pharisees are like, hey, he's with Satan.

And so I just reading that, it's like, wow, when we walk into situations, the demonic, the spiritual darkness is there, the lies present.

Why don't we as kingdom people like speak authority over the room or the situation.

And I've done this so many times and it's just like to calm everything down that's not of Christ.

And so in domestic disputes where it's chaotic and lots of name calling, everything, one thing I started doing was just, and I just say it out loud is like, in the name of Jesus, I command.

I, I rebuke the enemy in the name of Jesus.

The Lord rebuke you, Satan, in the name of Jesus.

I don't yell it, I just say it softly because the spirit can hear you and it just evens out our room.

It's really amazing.

And one time we Had a homeless guy staying in our house, a guy that I picked up and brought home, struggling with all kinds of addictions and stuff, and trying to help him sober up.

And night he has this crazy attack in.

In the room that he's in, in our house.

And it's like he's filming at the mouth and he's freaking out.

And, you know, we have two little kids in the house and my wife.

And so I go in the room with this guy and he was like a.

He was like a fit person.

You know, he was strong.

He was crazy right then.

And so, like, I just kept putting my hands on him and saying, in the name of Jesus, I command you to stop.

You're speaking life into you, and I'm commanding the enemy.

You don't have any say in this house.

You don't have any say in this room.

You don't have any say in my presence.

And then just watch him calm down, right?

And then once he's calm, then you can take, you know, the next appropriate.

And then one other time that was super dramatic.

We were in Jerusalem and there was a couple visiting us just to see what we were doing.

And he got.

He got really violently sick.

I think it was a kidney stone in the end.

But so he's in the hospital.

He's in the hospital in Jerusalem.

It's chaotic.

His wife's freaking out.

They're elderly and they're having to understand the doctor's accent is heavy.

Hebrew accent.

And so we just.

Me and Donna, my wife, just stood in the emergency.

It was in the emergency room, all the beds and everything.

And we just said, God, could you just calm this whole situation way down?

And it was creepy how silent that place got.

And he.

Tom, the guy that was sick, even said to me, he's like, what happened?

Like, why is everyone so.

Why is it so quiet in here?

And it's just like the Prince of Peace walked into the room.

You know, it's like that.

You are the kingdom of God.

We are the kingdom of God.

And when you walk into the room, the kingdom of God comes into the room.

Then exercise your authority and the reality of who you are as you come to the room and take ownership of the room.

Wow.

Good word.

And for those that were.

That maybe you.

That are non believers, you.

I think you talked about, shared about being on the.

In the police force and doing this.

How did they respond?

Respond when you would.

When you would.

When you would speak that.

I know you said you didn't scream it out, but they probably noticed the difference.

How did you navigate that with them?

Well, you know, when I was a rookie and then when I was, you know, in my first couple of years, so I would just experiment on my own, you know.

Yeah, I'd be by myself.

I would try these.

And then with.

Then my partner and I started working closer together.

He.

He would.

He would.

He.

I would do it with him there with me.

He is.

He was senior to me, and I wouldn't make a big deal about.

I would just do something or say something, and he would observe it, and then he would just watch the impact of it.

I can't tell people enough.

It's by the result of what you do that people understand what you're doing.

Like, it's not by my big explanation or my, you know, here.

It's like just.

Just live out your walk and let people around you see what happens.

And so my partner called it that thing you do.

He would say, are you going to do that thing?

And that's how he referred to it.

And then he would say.

And I would say to him, yes.

Then he would leave, actually.

He would.

He would leave the area in case it didn't work, and he would radio me, are you done?

And I would say, yeah.

And he would come back.

And then if it worked, you know, he took credit for it.

And if it didn't, I mean, then, you know, he would say he wasn't there, which is fine with me.

But.

But after a few times of doing that, he would.

We would be in a situation and he would look at me and he would go, do that thing now.

Do it now.

Do the thing now.

Whether it was like I was.

Share my faith with the person we were dealing with or pray in a certain way until.

And so he.

Then he became so moved by it himself that he.

He wanted me to do these things when we were together.

This is really interesting that he.

He never would sit with me and let me, like, talk about Jesus, but, man, did he like to see Jesus work in a situation.

Right.

It's kind of like Zacchaeus when he said, I want to see who Jesus is.

I want to go and see who he is.

And then Jesus affects Zacchaeus.

So that's how I did it.

And then when people would come back and say, like the State Department and say, how are you doing what you were doing?

Then I would articulate it.

But.

But you.

As you're asking, you have to articulate things in a way that a person can understand what you're saying to them.

Right.

So you have to contextualize it into language that they get.

So it can't be really hyper prophetic religious language.

It's just like, okay, this, I'm, this is the process I'm doing with this person or this is how my thinking works.

You know, I believe in prayer.

I ask God for ideas.

The ideas come to me.

I try them out.

Like that's, that's how I would explain it.

And so like this, the older detectives would say, you're listening to your gut.

You're listening to your gut, which is right.

And like, yes, that's exactly right.

But I, but not just waiting for my gut to say something.

I have a process of how to ask which they re.

They respect it because they would say the best cops are the ones that can, you know, they, they just know stuff.

They can feel it.

Like that's right.

Only I'm saying it's a practice that can be disciplined and, and, and learned.

Yeah, good word.

And they would just look at the result of it.

Yeah, yeah, good word.

And love.

Love the stories.

Jamie, you share about three faces of me and how the understanding of these help us live from the heart.

So you talk about real true and false.

Can you share about those?

And how do, how do the recognition of these help us live from the heart?

Yeah.

So the real me is what I would say is like this is just trying to tell the truth about what you really believe about yourself.

That's the real you.

And so the real me, you know, it's like the prayer, Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Like I'm trying to say the real me or I'm Lord, I'm really afraid in this kind of situation or I don't feel adequate and listen, even things I have to do today, I do not feel adequate to do them.

I don't feel capable of doing them.

And this is how we operate most of the time is in situations where we just, just don't feel.

I don't feel like, I just don't know.

I feel inadequate to be involved in this.

I don't feel like I have the qualifications to.

That's the real me.

I'm just trying to truth tell and that's the real me.

The, the false me would be, I'm not going to do it because I'm not good enough.

Like that's just a straight out, like I like it.

Like I get an imitate like, you know, we're going to invite you to come do this thing or speak at this thing.

And I'm like, I'm not going to do it because the people in that room such a different level than me.

This has happened last week and I just felt like I just don't want to go into the situation because I'm not good enough to do it or, or I'm not spiritual enough to do it.

That's just flat out false.

The real me is I can I say I feel like I'm not.

I like when I measure the qualifications of who these people are versus me, I feel like I'm not word.

I just, I'm true.

That's the real.

I'm telling the real thing.

The false is I'm not going because I'm not good enough.

False.

Then, then the Lord comes in and speaks the truth.

And he has never once said to me, oh yeah, you're going to be amazing.

And he never talks to me like that.

It's never that.

He.

What he always says is, I am with you.

That's the true.

And the true you is I am the one, Jamie is the one with whom God is at work.

And you're not going into by yourself.

You're going in there with me and I will speak truth to you about who you really are.

And you are enough.

That's usually what he says.

You're enough for this.

You're enough for this because I'm with you.

That's what makes you enough, not your skill level.

And you'll, you'll.

And then the Lord is always inviting you into places that require faith.

Yeah, right.

And so I think I'm adequate.

And he invites me.

I'm like, yeah, I got this.

I know how to do this.

I'm good at this.

Then I mean, that might be true.

But then he's like, well, let's go to a place where you don't feel adequate and you can grow and you can learn to trust me at a deeper level.

So then when he invites it, you know, we call it bump.

And when he bumps you up a level and then says, let's go do this together, that's when you'll start telling him the truth about what you.

Well, here's the real me though, Lord, in that situation, I, I'm not, I don't have the iq, I don't have the resume.

And you're confessing and then he truth tells back to you, which changes the way you think.

And then you go do things that you wouldn't necessarily do.

So it's really important to be able to confess and truth tell about what you really believe.

About yourself or what you really believe about God or what you really believe about other people.

But don't just sit in the lie that you're not enough and they're too much and they're going to, you know, they have control.

Don't sit in that lie.

Tell the truth about what you really believe and then let God come in and tell you what's true.

Because knowing and experiencing truth is what sets human beings free.

Wow.

You, Jamie and you and Donna walked us through a process of recognizing the labels and the false self and then the opportunity to hear the truth.

You know, I do a presentation sometimes where I put labels like, hello, my name is, and just kind of go through my life story of, hello, my name is this, this, and put all those labels on me.

Things people said about me, things I had or didn't have, education I did, had or didn't have, and all those labels.

But obviously the reality is who is you're sharing is who God says we are and who we are in Him.

And you walked us through that process.

What are some importance for people to begin to recognize those labels and because the world we live in, there's a lot of people putting labels on us.

So what is, what are some reasons it's important to go through a process like that?

And how does that help us see and hear the real truth of who we are in Christ?

Yeah, that's important because you want to understand the names that you believe about yourself that hurt you.

That's what you want to know.

We don't even, you know, most of us don't even realize the things we really believe about ourselves.

And this is why, you know, like when David in the Psalms is saying, God, search me and you know me, you, you reveal to me any way in me that's offensive to you.

And what's offensive to God, you believe about yourself, him or other people that he didn't say that aren't true, that offends him.

Not, not just actions.

Actions are the result of what you believe.

It's, it's like, so if I, if I hate myself or I, you know, I think I'm a disappointment, then I'm going to have actions in my life that try and cope with that, that wrong belief.

Those actions tend to be the things we work on rather than, well, like, where did you come up with something's wrong with you in the first place?

So just to continue, you know, that's the theme of everything we're saying.

When you have, when you have a negative emotion, then.

And you're asking the Lord, like, why am I afraid right now?

Why am I discouraged right now?

Why am I angry right now?

Search me and know me.

It's gonna be because you believe something about yourself or God or the other person that not true.

Typically it'll be about you, but it'll always be about what you believe about God.

In the end, always, it always will come down to, well, what do you believe about God?

So for me, when I growing up, I grew up in a really legalistic background.

And so in my childhood, there were two kinds of sins.

The sin of commission and the sin of omission.

So that means you could get in trouble for what you did and didn't do.

Like, how do you that world?

Right?

Yeah, I do the right thing.

Did I not do the thing I was supposed to do?

Like, you can't get out of the condemnation of you.

You lose on both sides.

And so you.

For me, I grew up very strongly and I'm just, I'm just a disappointment because I didn't do what I should have done.

And what I, you know, like Paul says, I did the thing I didn't want to do and the thing I wanted to do, I didn't do.

Who can deliver us from this?

Well, Jesus can deliver you from that, that wrong thinking.

But.

And so when, when I'd be in those situations, I struggle with that same negative identity to this day.

It's my root, most difficult thing to overcome.

In, in the end, it's a weakness that makes me strong.

That's the beauty of it.

Like, you know, it's like in, in that weakness, God is strong and in, in his.

In, in.

In my strength, I'm not really that strong.

But in the weakness, man, he really shows up in that I'm a disappointment thing.

So when you're, when you're having negative emotion, especially when you're having negative emotion, you just say, lord, what are the.

What is it?

What do I believe about myself right now that's hurting me?

Like, what are the names?

And just search me, Lord, and help just bring them to my mind.

I'm a disappointment.

Okay, and like, where did that come from?

That was told to you, you know, when you were young?

Okay, so then, Lord, what do you want me to know about that?

And then what he wants me to know is that he is the one that gives identity, right?

Not my mom or what she meant or didn't mean.

So that means my view of God has to be, wait a second.

God is the giver of identity.

That's the wrong belief about God.

These people gave me identity.

I'm stuck with them.

No, they don't.

They can't give identity.

They can say things and you can act as if they're true, but the reality is your identity comes from God.

And he has loved you.

He's the one who loves you like no other loves you.

And he'll never leave you or forsake you.

You.

So it really.

Ultimately your view of God is corrected or transformed.

And then he speaks into you as the one that's always loved you.

You will never be a disappointment to me.

You may disappoint a hundred other people.

You will never disappoint me.

That is how you learn not to get your identity from those around you, but to keep going back to him and saying, lord, right now I feel like a total disaster.

And then ask him, what do you call me?

So you're confessing what you believe about yourself, Lord, say to me the names that hurt me, that I believe about myself, that I learned from school or parents or experience or whatever.

Okay, I'm going to give those to you, Jesus.

I'm giving them to you because you became shame for us.

You were the sin offering on our behalf, giving those to you, sweeping the house clean.

Okay, now, Lord, what do you say about me?

And listen, learn to pay attention to what he says about you, because that's the only thing that really matters.

And once he speaks to you, what he says to you, okay, now you've gotta walk in that identity, which is a discipline and it's a challenge.

Okay?

Okay.

I'm not a disappointment.

I.

I'm.

I'm his untire of knots.

Okay, let's go do that.

But you can't do it without me.

You won't be able to do it without me.

Right.

And so it just.

It causes you to abide more and more closely.

But it's a daily thing.

Daily thing.

And that.

That process that Donna walked us through, I mean, it's an emotional process, you know, I mean, and it's.

At least it was for me.

It's an emotional process.

Is.

Is you begin to take the time to recognize and hear.

It's an.

Is that.

Is that a common thing, Jamie?

That it is.

It's an emotional process.

Right?

Because the key is how you feel.

I mean, that people try and separate fact and feelings and fate.

Like you can't.

We're one.

We're one being.

These are all together.

And so emotion is how we.

Is.

Is like a pointer.

And so we're always Asking people, like, I was with my neighbor the other day, and he.

He's left his career to do something that he thinks the Lord is inviting him into.

But he's been in his career for 50 years and he feels incredibly insecure without that career affirmation.

And so he.

So he.

I was with him the other night and he's like, I'm.

I'm struggling.

Like, I'm a new believer.

And I said that' You've.

You've given up the identity of engineer.

Yeah.

For the identity that God gave you.

And, and you can't control it.

Like, you can't.

He.

He's the one that gives it, not the job or the boss or, you know, I can say we accomplish these things.

And so how does it make you feel?

I always ask people, tell me how it makes you feel.

It makes me feel afraid.

It makes me feel and, and insecure.

And so.

Okay, all right, so what does that say that you believe?

What.

What are you afraid of?

What are you insecure?

And then they truth tell, right?

Then they'll truth.

They're like, I'm afraid, like, because I feel alone and really naked out here by myself.

And they're like, okay, okay, good.

All right, so are you alone?

Is that true, Lord?

What do I do with this alone feeling?

And also, Lord, just saying, I want you.

I want you to be your security.

I want to be your security.

Not the job, not the vocation, not the income, not.

I want to be your security.

None of this other stuff will ever give you security.

Yeah.

Wow.

You can say it does.

It doesn't.

So it's always emotional because the feelings are directional.

And then, so, so when you, when you ask a person, when you ask God or Scripture, how do we know that we're in the spirit or that we're walking in the spirit?

Love, it's all emotion.

Love, joy, peace.

It's.

It's.

It's how you.

It's the immeasurable in here.

And we have totally lost track of the immeasurable in our lives.

We do everything by the measurable.

And so God's taking us back to him who's immeasurable.

And that's.

And that has to do with how we feel.

Yeah.

And so that's why he's the God of not measurement.

He's the God who is love.

Wow.

Right?

Unconditional love.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we've went from.

We've went from qualitative things to quantitative.

You know, we've the qualitative of how we feel versus to the quantitative things that we can measure.

Man, that's.

That's powerful.

That's right, Jamie.

So the immeasurable leads to the measurable, though.

We can't forget that.

The immeasurable results in the measurable, but the measurable doesn't result in the immeasurable.

We've just got to flip that back.

The measurable will come, we know, but it has to be led.

That's why Paul says, I can speak with the tongues of angel and tongues of men and have all knowledge and sacrifice myself to the flames, all the measurable stuff.

But if I do it without the immeasurable, love, the measurable is a waste of time.

It's actually irritating to other people.

People.

And so that's what he's saying, you know, faith, hope and love, these are the things that have to lead.

Not the measurable, not the status.

Wow.

Wow, Jamie, you were such a.

You and Donna were such an encouragement to the missionaries in the room that day.

Do you have a word of encouragement for those listening in?

And then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

Yeah.

Also, here's my word of encouragement as a person, you know, as a couple in a family that spent many years overseas.

And I would ask people this.

Now, we worked in a lot of different.

We worked for the governments of different countries and all that, but we're all missional.

We're all called to be missional.

And so wherever we are, you know, we're invited by God to be part of mission.

And so.

But my question always is to the person, especially if you.

If you are a vocational missionary, is, did God invite you into this?

Did God invite this?

Or did someone or something else make you feel like you are supposed to do this?

It was very different because it's like this.

It's like a Muslim in our experience, a Muslim who came to faith because they had a personal encounter with Jesus, even when you persecute them, they will not leave the one that they've had an experience with.

But if they've been talked into becoming a Christian based on logic and man, when that persecution comes, they'll switch immediately.

Because it's not an experience with a person.

It's just information transferring from one system to another.

And so when you're on the field, and the first time I got arrested and put on trial overseas, if you're not there because Jesus invited you there and he's sitting there with you, when you get arrested and put on trial, you're going to find coping mechanisms to deal with it or you'll end up hating the people that you're among or being afraid of them.

So if you're fearful or dislike the people you're among, you're back with Paul.

You don't have the love and you can't love what you fear.

So my number one thing is, before you go forward in any way, just make.

Is Jesus.

Jesus, are you the one inviting me into this and not mankind or guilt or I gotta pay God back for something.

But is he.

He taking your hand and saying, follow me and I will make you to become this?

Then run with him, go with him, but make sure he's the one.

Because down the road, when trouble comes, and Aaron, I know you know this, when trouble comes, and it will come in every way that you can't even imagine, he needs to be there with you.

He needs to.

You need to be able to go back like the Israelites are doing.

Look at where they set that stone markers.

Remember the day that we met God here.

Okay, we're here now we can go back.

There's the day he invited us.

Okay, so let's keep that going.

If you don't have that, it's hard to endure.

So that's what I would say.

Good word.

Jamie, you would pray for us today?

Yeah, I'd love to, yeah.

Lord, thank you for Aaron and his family and the.

And the transition that they've been invited into.

Lord, thank you for that.

That and all that will come with this new invitation, this new level.

And Lord, I just pray particularly for them that they would hear you and walk with you and get their identity only from you and not from the job.

So then I, Lord, I pray for all of us, everyone who's listening, Lord, that, that we.

You're the God of invitation.

You're the one who invite.

You invite us into things and into journeys and into relationship.

You've always been the one and our is to receive from you.

So Lord, I just pray for everyone listening that whenever there's negative emotion that they would just come to you and say, lord, what do you want me to know?

What do you want me to receive from you?

And then what do you want me to do?

What are you inviting me into?

And that just those simple truth tell mind change, form change, process, walk that we see all through scripture that just become a part of our lives.

I pray that for myself today, Lord, for myself.

This, the negative emotion I've already experienced this morning in fear and in anxiety about stuff, Lord, that we just together as the body of Christ is the ecclesia that we'd walk together with you, our head, and follow you into all the amazing things you want to walk us into, but that we only do it with you and you alone.

And give you, Lord, all the praise and glory, because it's in Christ's name that we pray.

Amen.

Amen.