Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 6 Episode 6 of People Soup, it's Ross McIntosh here.

In this episode I continue my collaboration with Dr Richard MacKinnon that started in Season 5. We're continuing our exploration of the processes of ACT and psychological flexibility. Our People Soup ingredient this week is Committed Action, what it looks like, what can guide us and how we can bring our personal values to life. If you've ever wondered why you procrastinate, you'll probably relate to our examples and we finish with an evocative poem, that really captures how difficult it can be to take that first step.

For those of you who are new to People Soup - welcome - it's great to have you here - I aim to provide you with ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular P Soupers - thanks for tuning in - we love it that you're part of our community.

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Committed Action

[00:00:06]

[00:00:06] Richard: So self care is a really good example of that. Self care in one context, you know, So, putting your feet up, having a nap, that's the towards move because you really need it. You're exhausted and you're not going to be good to anyone unless you recharge the batteries. But in another context, putting your feet up and having a snooze when the deadline is rapidly approaching.

[00:00:46] Ross: Pea Soupers, in this episode I continue my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon that started in Season 5. We're continuing our exploration of the processes of act and psychological flexibility.

[00:01:23] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from For those of you who are regular PSupers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you are part of our community. quick scoot over to the news desk. My McKinnon continues. I am delighted to be joining him for the delivery of an Open Access Blended [00:02:00] Learning course in November. I It's called Thriving with Psychological Flexibility and it's open to all and it's just the ticket to support you in landing well in 2025.

[00:02:24] Richard: What is it we're going to be talking about today?

[00:02:45] Richard: Doing. It's a really big part of, of coaching. And I think this is a really important thing to carve out by itself. There's a pitfall that's very easy to fall into when we're developing ourselves, which is to learn the knowing, but not do the doing. Because that can be a little bit more difficult. So this is about taking those practical steps, following through on what we've thought through, living the stuff that's important to us.

[00:03:22] Ross: Yeah. Because, folks, you remember last time we spoke about values and how they can act as our internal compass or like a beacon for our behavior. And to, to use that as a guide to how we show up in a valued direction isn't always easy. How can we do that in the, in the moment to adjust our trajectory, perhaps when times get turbulent?

[00:04:08] Richard: or a bit scary, actually. So it's, it's the doing of everything we've been talking about, and we can draw upon all of the skills we've spoken about so far, you know, taking committed action or intentional, values aligned behavior is so much more easy when we're actually in the moment.

[00:04:49] It's really useful to be in the moment, aware of what matters to us, and then choose to act in accordance with that. And that, that choice is important, and what we do is important, but the doing, it could be different every time, couldn't it? It's not about coming up with rules for behavior. It's about in this context, this behavior, this action is what could be helpful.

[00:05:19] Ross: beautifully put. I love how you're linking it back to what we've already been discussing, that noticing what's going around us, perhaps noticing the impact you're having in the world and thinking, how could I respond now to reflect what matters to me, those, values. Because quite often, I think another word you said there was, was habits.

[00:05:56] Richard: Yeah, when we notice that something has changed around us, [00:06:00] or we notice that there's something that needs doing, or we've been asked to do something, or we're just making that connection with the here and now, options present themselves. We realize that maybe doing what I always do isn't gonna be the most useful thing right now, or maybe I'm noticing more about this situation, which is giving me pause for thought.

[00:06:23] that a habit is reflective. Of our values because we've chosen to cultivate that habit and they're like the habits are like the gateway drug for this stuff. If we cultivate very small habits that reflect our values, that's a great way of building that awareness of what it feels like to put values in action.

[00:07:03] Ross: Yeah, it's like looking through the lens of that value. How could that be applied here in a small way? And I agree, small is beautiful in this context, because sometimes it's natural for us as humans to be overwhelmed by where we want to get to, or perhaps the task or objective in front of us can seem just like insurmountable.

[00:07:35] Procrastination

[00:08:03] We're taking what matters and pushing it away from us for whatever reason. Some, some boredom or lack of clarity on the task or fear of failure, whatever it is, we're pushing it away. And committed action is saying, this is important and I'm choosing to do it. But here's the thing. I'm not choosing to get it all done or be hugely successful or finish the task.

[00:08:58] Ross: And I don't know if our, our viewers and listeners will recognize this from, from my life, but you ever have a task that you put off and you put off and you put off and you put off. And then if you're anything like me, the time comes when you just need to get on the horse and do it. And what I've been imagining will take me, maybe in my catastrophic mind, will take me at least a day and a half and will be really complex and it will be so onerous and unpleasant.

[00:09:52] Or maybe go and um, weed the garden. Or all these sort of displacement activities. Or eat a biscuit. [00:10:00] All these things that bring me that short term relief, but are in no way taking me towards what I really want to do and tackle. And it kind of like a vicious cycle where I just keep, Oh,

[00:10:34] Maybe the second, after big showy things. Maybe the second is that it then makes the task enjoyable. I don't know. It doesn't, it doesn't. we're just doing it. We're not waiting for the confidence or waiting for the joy or waiting to have done everything else. We're doing the stuff that matters.

[00:11:14] Well, You're stuck and you're not going to be able to get to the other side unless someone builds a bypass Around that village completely and the traffic can just go around it when we emphasize committed action We're building a kind of a mental bypass Around the discomfort around the boredom around the fear i'm like it's still there But we're choosing to just keep going in an efficient way And we don't have to take care of that stuff.

[00:11:57] Ross: because I think about Let's take an [00:12:00] example, a concrete example. Tax returns. I, I now look back on my tax returns in the UK with great fondness because here in Spain, geez, it's complicated and it's in another language.

[00:12:40] Richard: forward is our word du jour. I mean, it, this is another thing that, um, our binary way of looking. at the world, often gives us options that sound like right versus wrong or success versus failure. And if we, if we look at the world through that lens, then of course you're going to slow ourselves down because if I'm not successful, I'm going to be a failure at this, or if it's not right, it's wrong.

[00:13:29] It's like, no, you just start and move towards what matters. And that takes a lot of the weight off our shoulders, doesn't it? Yes.

[00:14:01] It was over four sessions and in that first session we did a card sort, a values card sort. And I think I, I, I positioned it as a, as a temptation to come back and listen to this episode as one of the teachers had chosen the value of patience and one of them had chosen the value of adventure. So the challenge for them between that first session and the second session was go away and have a go at bringing that to life in the classroom.

[00:14:49] And she noticed her hand raised. And then, something just clicked in her brain and she thought, ooh, the value of patience. And so, rather than going into a bit of a rant, she did something entirely different which reflected this value of patience. And I haven't done it credit or justice, but the way she explained it was just a totally different behavioral shift for her. That knowing in herself that that had meaning and significance for her. And I asked, well, how did the children respond? And the children responded by going, Huh? Mom? What's happening? Because they were expecting to get a bit of a row. So that, that for me just illustrates how if we can be alert and catch ourselves in flight, we can become more alert.

[00:16:02] And what his mind was telling him. is that he couldn't go and do that because he had a girlfriend and a son and they would think he was being selfish but he actually took a small step and that small step was chatting to his girlfriend about hey I'd really like to to do that again when I used to do as a kid go camping on the moor and she was like oh that's a great idea.

[00:16:47] And then over that week, he'd put some of his belongings that he no longer uses, up for sale on eBay with the intention of using that money to buy some camping equipment. And for me that was just kind of mic drop. That is, that is committed action. That is values led action. It didn't end up with him in a tent on the moors, but you see that small steps towards it.

[00:17:18] Richard: they're lovely. They're very simple and And the first one, especially Patience, it's like that behavioral pivot in the moment, you know instead of doing what I've always done I'm just going to try and be a bit more agile and try something different Again, it doesn't guarantee success We're being experimental about this.

[00:18:14] And yet we both know that when people consistently make those small steps, it feels good and there's a good chance they'll do more of it. And they'll notice other opportunities to take small steps in alignment with other values or towards really meaningful goals. And the steps they take might be tough or difficult or new or ambiguous, but they know why they're doing it, which is really important.

[00:19:05] We're not getting rid of that discomfort, which is a big trap we can fall into. You know, I need to feel confident before I can do the thing, or I need to feel brave before I can ask the question. we're, we're investing in the behavior and it's not that the discomfort goes, but you know what, if we pay less attention to it, it's almost as if it has, but we're, we're not putting our energy into removing the discomfort first.

[00:19:41] Ross: I like the way you talk about energy as well, Richard, that can choose where we direct that energy. And if we're directing it towards those small steps, it gives us more data to think, Oh, is this still taking me towards what matters? Can I, can I regard this with kind of a curiosity, an experimental stance?[00:20:00]

[00:20:06] Richard: That's it.

[00:20:13] Richard: So I've had feedback from coaches over the years when using these tools. And, and I try to be consistent in pointing out that confidence comes from doing. We don't magically get confident before we try something new. Or if we're waiting on that, we're going to be waiting for a very long time. And I've coaches come back and say, no, I feel really confident about this now.

[00:21:02] And as we said before, often that's way out of whack, really catastrophizing the situation or talking us down or all the other ways our mind can be a nightmare. So we kind of need to let the rubber meet the road. And then we can say, I don't feel confident. Okay, fine, that's legitimate, you had to go. But it's the doing that enables us to gather some, some data and think, think like a scientist about it.

[00:21:51] the word confident in his new roles and he thought he needed to work on building that before he went and sat with his team and in our first session together [00:22:00] we explored it and then later that week he went and sat with his team for two days and he found it supremely uncomfortable and recognized that he was taking those steps towards what matters and fulfilling his His ambition and vision for how he could be in that role.

[00:22:27] Richard: and it helps us engage in the opposite of our towards moves, which, you know, the audience have probably figured it out. We call away moves, you know, the behavior that we exhibit in an effort to minimize or reduce the discomfort. Your displacement activities were a great example. Isn't it interesting how busy we can be when we're putting something off?

[00:23:17] And this towards versus away, I find is an incredibly powerful way of looking at almost any situation we can find ourselves in because it reframes it for us from those evaluative binaries to something that's direction of travel, which is sometimes it's not as frightening. It's not as demanding.

[00:23:40] Ross: Yeah. I think you're right. Using that, those, the concept of towards in a way is super powerful and, uh, The, the surprise for some people is they think towards moves are going to be easy. It's going to be an absolute breeze representing this stuff in my behavior that really matters to me. And those away moves are [00:24:00] going to feel a bit rubbish.

[00:24:27] Maybe, you know, just look after yourself mate. And there's times when that would be the right thing to do, but times when I'm, if I'm putting off that sort of tax return, it's really taking me away from that. who I want to be in that moment, and it can feel marvellous.

[00:25:08] But we've also set ourselves up to feel doubly bad. I didn't do the thing, and I realized I could have done the thing, and now I feel bad about the delay. So now I've got multiple things to feel bad about. Um, which, no one needs more of that in their life. So, you, you make an incredibly important point.

[00:25:49] And that's really not who we want to be.

[00:26:02] Richard: So, action. We don't need to call it committed action. That can sound a bit demanding in itself. It's the doing, it's your values in action. I work with my clients to help them understand the contextual nature of towards in a way, first of all. So it's not rules and the same behavior could be a towards move in one context and it could be in a way move in another.

[00:26:28] Richard: So self care is a really good example of that. Self care in one context, you know, So, putting your feet up, having a nap, that's the towards move because you really need it. You're exhausted and you're not going to be good to anyone unless you recharge the batteries. But in another context, putting your feet up and having a snooze when the deadline is rapidly approaching.

[00:27:14] That's not self care if there are more important, meaningful things for us to do. So to circle back, once clients understand the contextual nature, then I, I work with them to help them understand that whatever they're doing, they can pause and say, what might be the towards option here? What might be the away move here?

[00:27:57] It's these little moments where we, we [00:28:00] can reconnect and clarify for ourselves. Oh yeah, that's the towards move. It's, it's actually quite clear. Flexing that muscle. Even if you don't act, enables you to get clarity on what the options look like. And even if you still do the away move, I say you've won a prize, because you've seen it for what it is. And maybe it's been years of doing this. It's not going to be unpicked in an afternoon. But at least you're seeing your options differently. And then the next step is, yeah, those small little steps in the direction, to see what that is like and what difference that makes. Not aiming for the life changing decisions, not aiming for the personal reinvention, but more just move in that direction, small step, and see what it's like.

[00:29:04] Richard: not pass fail, not self criticism, but rather more opportunities to try something different.

[00:29:32] And I think it's from a book called Mindfulness for Two by Kelly Wilson. But he makes that point that, let me just share this quote. No one lives in accordance with their values all the time. Some days, some moments, we will be well oriented within that pattern of living by our values. Other days, other moments, we'll find ourselves at odds with our values. In that moment, the moment in which we notice that we're out of [00:30:00] alignment with our values, can we pause, notice our dislocation, and gently return?

[00:30:13] Richard: That's lovely. And gentle returns is such a nice way of putting it. Just bring, bringing yourself back to reorient rather than, Ah, what's the point? I've not done it.

[00:30:32] Richard: Mm, exactly.

[00:30:54] Start close in. Don't take the second step or the third. Start with the first thing close in, the step you don't want to take. Start with the ground you know, the pale ground beneath your feet, your own way of starting the conversation. Start with your own question. Give up on other people's questions.

[00:31:43] Start close in. Don't take the second or the third step. Start with the first thing close in, the step you don't want to take. And that's from David White. And I just love the way that, for me, that represents what we've been chatting [00:32:00] about, Richard.

[00:32:36] So being clear on, yeah, make a start because that's important, or make a start because it's meaningful to you. It's that first step. And as it's been pointed out to me in workshops over the years, It's quite difficult physically to just take one step, isn't it? So actually, once you've done that first one, often the other steps follow.

[00:32:59] Ross: That's it folks. My chat with Richard on committed action in the bag. This is shaping up to be a great series and we'll be back with the next installment in three weeks time. But for next week, I'm delighted to welcome Debbie Sorenson to PeopleSoup To talk about her brilliant book, Acts for Burnout. I can't wait to share it with you. You'll find the show notes for this episode at peoplesoup. captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can email me at People soup dot pod@gmail.com.