In this CLOC Talk: Clockwise Year in Review episode, host Oyango Snell is joined by German legal operations leaders Michael Thompson and Dr. Vera Roedel to reflect on the themes that defined legal ops in Germany in 2025 and what lies ahead in 2026. Drawing from regional listening sessions and community discussions, they explore why German legal teams prioritize practical, solution-oriented approaches—grounded in real examples, metrics, and peer learning—over theory or hype. Topics include process optimization, technology adoption, change management, and the growing recognition of legal operations as a dedicated profession, not a side role.

Looking ahead, the conversation turns to CLOC’s expanding presence in Germany, including the launch of the Germany chapter and a renewed focus on deep peer-to-peer engagement. Michael and Vera discuss how legal ops may evolve through more honest lessons learned, stronger adoption strategies, thoughtful use of legal tech, and increased collaboration across Europe. The episode closes with an invitation to the community to actively participate, share openly, and help shape a trusted, practitioner-led legal ops ecosystem in Germany and beyond.

Welcome to Clock Talk, the official

podcast of the Corporate Legal Operations

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Consortium, where legal operation

leaders from around the world share

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insights, strategies, and lessons

shaping the future of our profession.

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I'm your host, o Yengo Snell,

and today's episode is part

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of our Clockwise year review.

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And what's next series

spotlighting How Legal Operations

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is evolving across our regions.

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Joining me today are two leaders

deeply connected to the German

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legal operations community.

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Michael Thompson and the Dr.

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Vero Rodo.

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Together we'll reflect on what resonated

most with legal teams this past year,

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from what emerged in listening sessions

and regional events to the partnerships

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and collaborations that helped to

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Exploring priorities for expanding

clock's, presence in Germany, new

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programs and events on the horizon,

and how German legal operations may

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evolve through greater standardization,

deeper technology adoption, and

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increased collaboration across Europe.

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Vera Michael, great to have

you here on Clock Talk.

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Thanks.

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Great to be here.

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All right, so before we get into talking

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ahead to what happened in 2026, folks

outside of Germany, throughout our global

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community would like to know who you are.

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So Vera, I'm not gonna do the whole ladies

first thing and start with you, right?

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In this instance, we're gonna

do a little bit of reverse

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chivalry and start with Mike.

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So Michael, tell us, how'd

you get into legal ops?

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Who are you?

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Where are you?

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What do you do?

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Why?

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Alright, so my name's Michael.

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I'm the head of legal operations at LDDX.

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And LDDX is actually the international IT

service provider of the LD South Group.

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So even in the US uh, you might

have seen some of our stores, LD

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is a globally working discount

retailer, but that's not what we do.

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We are in the international team

and I am together with my team,

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part of the international it.

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I joined the international IT as as an

in-house legal counsel and after nearly

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two years in that role, I took over and

founded the legal operations team here.

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The reason I probably did that

is because I always questioned

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traditional ways of working.

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I was never that person that was

satisfied in doing the things

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like we always did them before.

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I was always looking for smarter and

more efficient ways to work, and doing

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more is less, and the opportunity

presented itself and I was all up for

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it, and that's why I took over this role.

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Awesome.

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Took advantage of an opportunity and

not allowing yourself to be stagnant

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in your role and looking for that,

not even really looking for it,

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seizing that opportunity to grow and

develop and transition into legal ops.

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Great.

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Vera, tell us your story.

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Who are you?

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How'd you get into legal ops and why?

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So is my name and I can only echo.

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I took an opportunity.

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I was rep, uh, responsible for

enhancing the legal operations team.

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It's a big team at Merck in Daad

that is quite famous for the big,

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uh, the size of the legal ops

department and for the innovation.

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So I had the pleasure to organize

it, reorganize it, reshape it.

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Two years ago now, and after this, I

fell in love with legal ops and founded

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Transforming Legal with Tom Fannick.

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And this is now one year ago.

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And this is how I.

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Came across Legal Ops and Clock.

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Awesome.

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Awesome.

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I've had a chance to spend some time

in Europe this year as I joined.

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Clock and legal ops is

different in every region.

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The legal communities are

different in every region.

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Some of the issues and topics that's

coming up that's being discussed.

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That's being focused on in various parts

throughout Europe are different there.

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I'll start with you.

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What are some of the legal

operations topics that resonated

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most in Germany in 2025?

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From your lens?

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Was it process optimization?

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Was it technology adoption, data

governance, change management,

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training and development?

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Or was it all of the above?

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You know, what were some of

those topics that kind of emerged

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as key topics during 2025?

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I think it was all of the above.

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But I think the biggest challenge

and the biggest difference in

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Germany when it, when you compare

it with other markets, is that we as

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Germans are very solution oriented.

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Mm.

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So we want to see real examples,

real metrics, and real models.

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That do work.

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And in the end, this is why we

focused, and we'll come to this

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in a second where Michael and I

decided we want peer learning.

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So in the end, of course all the

topics you just mentioned, we all

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strive to improve them, but you do

need real life examples to convince

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people and to learn from each other.

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Michael, how about from your Lance?

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What were some of the topics that

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Since Vera already said that we

tend to jump at the solutions first.

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I think it's still necessary to

explain to legal departments colleagues

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sometimes that the legal operations,

not just legal tech, because people

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always tend to jump at technology

nowadays, preferably with anything

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that has anything to do with AI in it.

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And so it's kind of.

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Trying to stay grounded, trying to

talk through the hype and then already

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work with the results of that, because

there's often a lack of adoption

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because people are seeing that they

are not really getting the results

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that they wanted because they were

jumping to the solution too fast.

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And it will be more or less

try to start with the basics

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and the risk can come later.

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Something that I would always suggest.

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When I was coming up as a kid, I, my mom

or and family members would always think

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that I would be a good lawyer because

I did just that, you know, something

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happened and I just jumped in and start

doing stuff, just trying to get to the

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solution, trying to, trying to resolve

the issue, not really understanding

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the entire scope of the problem.

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Good lawyers do the opposite.

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They understand the problem

first and, and, and then start

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thinking about solutions.

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What was the process?

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I'm, it's my understanding, I know you

guys did some listing sessions with,

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throughout those listing sessions

is, is that where some of those

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revelations came from about trying

to find out how to be more solution

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oriented or attack problems from more

of a solution oriented perspective

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or taking a beat and just trying to

understand what the community needs.

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What did those listening

sessions actually reveal about?

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Events and the needs of the German legal

teams when it came to legal operations.

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If I may, so what I learned from all

the interactions we did have in the past

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is that people are less interested in

the theory because we love to, to talk

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about the theories that are there and

the possibilities, but people really

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want to understand how others have

implemented this change in practice.

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Yes.

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In their legal department, in their

small department, and how they rolled

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it out in the whole legal department

or even in the whole company.

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Because I think that it's often.

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I've forgotten that it's not only

the legal department that we here

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have to address, but the whole

company needs to be part of this

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change process and change management.

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So I think the peer interaction is key

here because they wanna know what they

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should repeat and what they should avoid.

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I'll agree to that.

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And also, one thing that I have

seen is that still too often from

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my perspective, a lot of companies

or legal departments think that

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legal operations is something that.

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Any kind of legal counsel or

legal person can do on the side.

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And so what legal teams need is

actually the understanding of that.

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This should be at least a full-time

job for a person, or even better the

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team always depending on the size of

your company, of your legal department.

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But it's definitely not gonna

work if you give someone from the

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legal department the job to do.

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Some of those projects on the side, yes.

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Like implementing AI is probably one of

the most sophisticated things that they

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could come up with, and they think that

it's something that person that has never

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done something like that before can do on

the side, and it's a recipe for failure.

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A hundred percent.

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Michael, I'm so glad you said that.

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I participate in a lot of conferences and

I, I won't out anybody because it, I'm,

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I'm sure they were doing their best and,

and sharing the information that they had.

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But I was participating in a conference

in the audience, and during a particular

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session, there was an individual who was

trying to communicate how to create a

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legal ops program on a shoestring budget,

I think was the name of the session.

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It was all about Googling

templates and being creative and

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innovative, and I thought, I get it.

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I get the thought process.

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If you're strapped on resources,

you do what you can do to get by.

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But I thought that that topic was

given the legal operations industry.

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A bad name because it made it seem

like you can just Google this role.

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It's not something that needs the

intellectual capacity that you just

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talked about, Michael, or the creativity

and the innovation in moving the

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business or the enterprise for, so

I'm glad you threw that out there.

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Have you guys encountered that?

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Obviously it sounds like you have

Mike, but just encountered that sense

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of just demeaning our profession.

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Sometimes, but I think at least

in Germany it's getting better.

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I think the feedback that we received

now when announcing Clock coming to

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Germany really showed it, and that people

do appreciate the legal ops department

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as enabling the legal department

as legal is enabling the business.

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So I think this quite changed

in Germany, not everywhere.

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So I think we still have some work

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It's still a journey, but I mean there

are some forerunners and we are trying

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to be those and we're trying to gather

those under the banner of clock in the

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future and see what he can then achieve

because some of have to take the lead and

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we are trying to be the ones doing that.

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Yeah.

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Well before we skip to 2026,

'cause I really wanna know what

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we're looking at on the horizon.

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We talked about solutions, theories, peer

interaction, real life examples of trying

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to navigate legal ecosystem rather in

Germany, but also looking at those best

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practices and sharing those best practices

amongst peers in order to help drive the

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legal ops space throughout the region.

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What specific, if there were any

partnerships or firms or associations

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that you all think helped accelerate

growth this year in Germany?

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Well, there are already a couple of

organizations on the German market.

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We would clock our kind

of coming a little late.

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It's the, what I would call the usual

suspects is, which we know in the legal

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operations bubble, you know, the German

Institute for our legal departments and

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business lawyers, federal Association of

Business Lawyers, liquid Legal Institute.

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Those are the ones, but a lot of the time

they are, at least from my perspective,

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with the things that they do, a kind

of addressing the broader audience.

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And that helps to spread the knowledge

of what legal operations is and

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the adoption of legal technology.

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But what's kind of missing is the in-depth

knowledge that we would try to transport

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when we're starting with clock and saying,

not for the masses, but for the experts,

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which is what we would try to achieve.

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So Jango, you see, we wanna move forward

to our top priorities for next, next year.

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We wanna promote a

clock coming to Germany.

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Yes, let's do it.

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What are the top priorities for

clock's presence in Germany next year?

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Vera.

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So, as Michael said, community

depth, not just scale.

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So we really wanna have this

peer-to-peer interaction.

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We want to create spaces where members

really feel safe to share openly.

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As you just said, what went

well, but also what went wrong.

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So this is, I think, key here and one

major milestone, and I think we are going

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promote it here now will be the first

official clock Germany chapter meeting

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in Frankfurt in February next year.

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Yeah.

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Tell us when is it, give us a

picture of what that's gonna

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look like from your vision.

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So I think it's really important that

the focus there will be international.

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So it's not a German event,

it's not a pure German event.

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As you or KO will be there yourself.

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Yes.

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But we now have already many people

reaching out to us, asking, um, asked

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to send an invite to set, provide

an agenda, and we do already have

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people confirming their participation.

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So I think the clear pitch

is less stage, more dialogue.

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Yes.

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Less stage, more dialogue, having

an opportunity to have meaningful

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conversations and really dive into

the nitty gritty of the things

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that's happening throughout the

German legal operations marketplace.

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How do you see, and, and

Mike, I'll start with you.

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How do you see legal ops evolving in 2026?

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Do you see some of the

same issues we discussed?

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Do you see it being more about AI

and tech adoption or standardization

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and more collaboration?

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Or are there are some other

topics that might rise to the top?

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That's a tough one.

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I would hope that we will be able

to see through the hype a little bit

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because that's obviously what's being

created by a lot of software suppliers,

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startups coming up with solutions

that are good and that are definitely.

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Doing what they're supposed

to be most of the time.

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But the question then always is,

do they solve the problem that the

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people who are going to use them

actually have and they will should

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start asking themselves that question.

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And then also exchange Liberia

just said, with with peers who

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have the experience, like what

worked for you, what didn't work?

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Is that something that I can do

and a little less hype and a little

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more structural content would be

something that I would like to see.

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Yeah, same here.

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So more honest lessons learned

that you do not have that often

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and less polished success stories.

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Just repeating what has already been said.

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Let me get you all's thoughts on legal

tech because I read, I think it was a

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pitch book that did a report and they

showed that there has been significant

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investment capital investments

in legal tech over the years, but

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even much more significant in 2025.

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From 2024, I think it's almost

doubled the amount of spending

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that's happening in legal tech.

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I, I know you said sometimes

we jump to the solutions, which

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sometimes might be the tech, right?

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The tech might be the solution.

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But before you get to the tech, it's

about assessing what problems, what

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business problems are we trying to solve?

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What are some of the best practices

and different things that we would

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consider before jumping to the solution.

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Are you guys having those types of

conversations on the ground as well?

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Are you seeing that trend of a influx

of capital spending in legal tech, and

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is that helping you kind of think about

what your approach is to legal ops?

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I think the amount of different

legal tech companies, it's growing.

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So the market is so scattered that

you can hardly, although at Merck for

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example, we do have a big department

taking care of this, it's nearly

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impossible to really have an overview,

but you are forced to use legal tech.

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Nobody would ever admit, I'm

not yet using legal tech.

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So I think this is a difficult

situation for the legal ops and

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legal tech and legal departments.

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All over because they aren't really

able to choose the correct and

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the best legal tech out there.

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That's true.

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And even if more and more companies

start to implement solutions,

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the question is how many of their

employees, especially from the legal

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department, are then using those.

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So adoption is something, and it always

comes with a mindset of people, like

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even if they have the best legal tech

tool and they don't really think that

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it will help them in their daily work or

that they actually know how to use it.

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Adoption will be your problem, not that

you don't have the technology at hand.

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And then of, of course, if you have a look

at the return on investment, if you spend

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a lot of money on the tools, you would

expect to see the outcome and the result.

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But if a lot of your workforce

is not doing with the tool,

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what they're supposed to do.

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Then there is this, the gap between

invest and and expectation and what

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the results are that you're actually

getting, and that's also something that

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you always need to work on, probably

from the beginning, and that's where

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legal operations should come in.

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And then saying, okay, it's not only

about buying something, implementing

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it, but getting people involved and

then onboarded from the beginning so

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that it can be a success from the start.

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Yeah, I wish it could be more simple,

where you go and you get what they do

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in the Matrix, you get the red pill or

the blue pill, and it kind of tells you

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your direction and where you're going.

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You know what you're about to get into.

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Instead, it's like going to the

doctor and the doctor doesn't

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know what's wrong with you buddy.

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He or she gives you a prescription and

says, try this out, and it doesn't work,

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and you just figure it out as you go.

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20% take neither nor so.

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No pill.

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So you have to live with them as well.

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Yeah, exactly.

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You got me when you said you're just

forced to use it, even though you don't

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know if it's gonna work or not, what

opportunities exist to bridge Germany's

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legal ops efforts with broader Europe?

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I know we talked about, you

know, some of the, just maybe the

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perspective, at least in Germany,

and then how things are percolating

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throughout other parts of Europe.

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Our goal has been to really.

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Be much, much more consistent and present

in supporting the community in Europe.

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I think in our years past, we have not

done a great job at doing that, and I

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think under my leadership, I'd like to see

us really double down and invest in that.

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It, and this is just one of hopefully

many of those opportunities, but

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what are you all seeing as far as

bridging that gap or if is there a gap?

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Like what are the opportunities

there that exist in bringing together

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broader Europe wide initiatives

with what Germany's doing?

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My perspective is that we are of

course a German chapter, but in the

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end we already invited several ducks,

companies that operate internationally.

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So of course we have the huge

opportunity to connect Germany's

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strength with the European ones.

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But I think it's more, it's broader.

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It's connecting all the chapters

together and learning from each other.

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Yes.

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And I think, although we are a German

chapter, we do have many ducks.

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Companies that bring in the US view

the spanner view, whatever view.

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So I think.

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It's the clock community that is

growing with the German market also.

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Mike, your thoughts.

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I would agree.

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I mean, only focusing on our

bubble, uh, where we are located,

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that helps to shape focus but not

get other people's perspective.

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And that's also helpful.

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I mean, even if we are in Europe and close

to a lot of other countries who might

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even be German speaking, so we don't even

have a language barrier there to bridge.

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We might have different perspectives on

things, but that helps us to question

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our own perspective, to get other ideas.

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And then we come to back to

what we said in the beginning.

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It all lives from the exchange of thoughts

and ideas, sharing best practices,

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and that can only be a positive if

you do that and have a look at a

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broader perspective than just your own.

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I agree wholeheartedly.

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Vir, I'll start with you.

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How can clock support you all

in Germany as you build and,

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and continue to work towards

strengthening a sustainable region?

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I think really with your presence, as you

will join the meeting, as Jen will join

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the meeting as we already aligned on a

meeting in autumn, the, so I think really

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connecting, collaborating, and promoting

this event, not only in Germany, but to

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the all, all the Germans speaking, but

also to the other European and global

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networks out there need the leverage here.

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And those are already only the things

that, that we can already answer.

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So let us wait until,

until the first meeting.

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Let's then ask some of the

participants what they would expect

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you to provide or what they need,

and then we can work on that.

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Yes, build programs with

people, not build them for them.

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What message would you all like

to leave with clock members in

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Germany or around the world?

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As many of our listeners are tuning in

and learning about the German region

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for the first time as we move into 2026.

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We are obviously excited ourselves

about the kickoff that's going to happen

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and all the work that will then come

and the journey that we will take.

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We want to invite everyone to

be part of it, to contribute

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actively to the community.

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I mean, it is a community.

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It's not just something that we

are doing things and delivering

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results to your doorstep.

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You can and need to participate, be

active, share ideas, share thoughts,

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and then see where that leads us.

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Echoing our motto and vision.

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So less polished success stories,

more honest lessons learned.

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So I think this is what Michael and I

wanna achieve, and I would be remiss

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if I did not say, I think we targeted

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In Frankfurt.

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Yes.

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Fixed.

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Yes.

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All right.

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Well, Vera, Michael, it was so

great to talk with you and to get

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to know you a little bit better.

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We had a little bit of a short

conversation earlier this year, but

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it's so great to talk with you and

get to know you, and it's great to

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hear you all's perspective and what's

happening throughout the region.

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Thanks for listening to Cock Talk.

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A huge thank you to Michael Thompson

and Vera for sharing their insights,

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experience, and vision for the future

of legal operations in Germany.

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And thank you to you, our listeners,

clock members and legal ops

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professionals who are building this

community every day through curiosity,

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collaboration, and leadership.

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I'm o Yel Snell.

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Here's a strong hope to 2026 for

the legal ops community in Germany,

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and I can't wait to get after it.

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Thank you.

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Thanks a lot.

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Thank you.