In this seventh episode of the confidence in leadership series, Rich and Dave explore an important but often misunderstood leadership question: why does confidence seem to come more naturally to some people than others? Using the lens of personality profiling and leadership traits, they unpack how a diverse group of people experience pressure, uncertainty, conflict and self-doubt in very different ways.

Drawing on tools such as Whole Brain Thinking, DiSC, MBTI and specifically the High Potential Trait Indicator (HPTi), the conversation explores how profiling tools can deepen self-awareness when used wisely, while also highlighting the dangers of turning personality profiles into rigid labels or identities. Non-nuanced use of profiling tools can have a detrimental impact on a person’s confidence.

Rich introduces how different leadership traits can influence the “masks” people reach for under pressure, i.e. the Over-achiever, Pretender, Self-doubter and Striver masks from Zentano’s Confidence Compass model. The episode offers practical insight into how leaders can better understand themselves using the HPTi profiling tool and respond more intentionally under pressure and move back towards what Zentano calls the “Connected Centre”, a grounded place of true confidence.

This episode is particularly relevant for leaders interested in self-awareness, emotional intelligence, profiling tools, confidence, and understanding how personality and pressure interact in the workplace.

Key Talking Points

• Why confidence feels easier for some leaders than others
• The difference between traits, preferences and pressure responses
• Why profiling tools should be treated as lenses, not labels
• The danger of turning profiles into identity “boxes”
• How leadership traits influence confidence under pressure
• The relationship between personality and the confidence masks
• Why self-awareness is a starting point, not a verdict
• How confidence changes depending on context and environment
• Moving from protective masks back to the Connected Centre

Welcome to the Connected Leadership Podcast by Zentano. For forward thinking leaders who want to lead with confidence, clarity and impact.

We bring you grounded wisdom, real stories from real leaders, conversations that leave you thinking differently, feeling inspired and ready to act. Let's dive in. So welcome back to the Connected Leadership Podcast by Zentano and specifically to part seven of our Confidence in Leadership series.

Now today we're going to explore something that most leaders notice, but they rarely talk about.

How two people can have a similar experience and similar responsibility, but one seems naturally calm under pressure while the other carries more internal noise. So, Rich, welcome to the podcast.

Hi, Dave. Thank you.

Here's a question for you just to kick things off. Why does confidence feel easier for some leaders as opposed to others?

And if that's true, because you might disagree with me, what can we do with that insight?

Yeah, so confidence will feel easier for some leaders than others, but the important caveat to that is, is that it's context dependent. Okay.

So if you think about how we're made up as human beings, how our brain is wired, you know, the sorts of traits, thinking preferences that we have, those traits and thinking preferences play out differently in different contexts and different scenarios. So for example, you know, because the way my brain is wired, which is, is very different than yours, we might be in an identical situation.

I feel pressured. Okay. And you don't because of our traits and thinking preferences.

And what's likely to happen is when we're under pressure and we don't feel safe because that's what pressure does to us potentially, and we're not self managing that very well, that then potentially has an impact on our confidence. Okay. So I would slightly reframe the question if you like.

I think confidence can feel easier to some leaders, but it depends on the situation and it'd be different for everyone in every situation.

Yeah. And I think that's an important insight to kick this off with. Really? Because like a lot of things, it's always context specific, isn't it?

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly.

Okay, so where I want to take this today, because confidence is very much, as you said, not just about context, but it's also about your own levels of self awareness and your own levels of self management. Now you and I will know we actually use these ourselves. There is a plethora of profiling tools out there that people use in the workplace.

We are whole brain thinking practitioners, but we also have some other tools that we use as well. I'd like to take a look at confidence today through one of the Specific tools that we've used before.

And that's the high potential trait indicator, which is a tool by Thomas International. So I guess the question for you before I get into that tool itself, is what's your view of profiling tools and what role they play in confidence?

Yeah, so let's go back to the first question and my response to that. So we talked about human beings being wired and made up differently. So we all have different traits, different abilities, different preferences.

And what these profiling tools are attempting to do is to put some sort of lens, some sort of measure, if you like, on those traits and it will use a particular theory or a particular approach to help a person understand. Okay.

So you know, for this perspective, you know, for example, you know, one of the common trait indicators that people look at, say through tool like insights or MBTI is the introvert versus extrovert sort of continuum. Okay, yeah. So that will help people give a sense of their relative preference towards introversion or extroversion, for example.

And it's just relative preference.

So the idea behind these tools, it helps people become aware and it helps people become aware about how their traits and preferences play out in different scenarios in day to day life. Now, in my view, the big danger with profiling tools is that people treat them as the ultimate truth about everything.

So they will look at a profiling tool report and unconsciously sometimes treat it as the ultimate truth about them as an entire human being. It's really important to regard profiling tools as a bit like a fisheye lens on the human condition.

Human beings are hugely, hugely complex beings, if you like. And profiling tools take a particular theory or a particular sort of psychological lens and shine the light on the human condition through that lens.

So it's a very narrow perspective on the whole person. And the danger then is the profiling tool almost becomes, if you like, a cage.

And the real danger with profiling tools is they become self fulfilling prophecies and people start to use them as labels for themselves.

You know, so for example, if you take, I think it's insights that uses some of the language like fiery red and cool blue, I think it's that sort of stuff.

So they might start saying they read the insights profiling tools and it indicates a strong preference for say, fiery red, you know, the trait indicator inside that tool. So they start to say I am fiery red. So they identify themselves that the whole of themselves is I am fiery red.

And actually human beings are highly nuanced and they might show up as fiery red in some situations. But they might not, you know, so it's just a very narrow lens on the human condition.

And all different trait profiling tools will use a different methodology, a different theory and it'll be a completely different lens on them as a human being. So whole brain thinking, for example, their thinking preferences, insights, or Myers Briggs that uses Jungian theory is the lens, you know.

So all of these tools have different lenses and they're not the ultimate truth about us.

No. So there's a couple of things I want to pick up on there.

One is whatever tools you use to develop self awareness, and I'm a big fan, if it's the right thing to use, has its value in self awareness. Absolutely. But understand what the premise of the tool is that you're using because they have different premises as well.

Yes.

Yeah.

So let's be, let's be clear about what the premise is, what it's trying to tell you and the other thing, and I think it's, I'm trying to quote here from something you may have said to me recently. If you made the point earlier on about confidence is very, very context specific.

So if we take the context, it's like the territory that you're trying to navigate. A profiling tool is like a map, a map in which you can use to navigate that territory. Does that make sense?

That's the analogy, I think, and I kind of got that when you were talking about it in those terms. So I think that's a useful analogy for people here to think about.

Your profiling tools are a map, they help you to orientate yourself, but don't confuse that with the actual territory you're trying to navigate through.

Exactly. And I think the other point I would say is just treat it as a starting point for developing your self awareness as a human being.

I've seen organizations and I really don't like this approach. And so if our listeners disagree with me on this, I'd be interested to know your perspective.

But I've seen some organizations, for example, that use Insights as a tool where they stack a set of coloured bricks on a person's desk to show their relative preference for each of the four styles inside Insights. And the danger for that is that. Well, there's two dangers with that.

It becomes a bit of a cage for the person who those bricks represent because, you know, the relative stacking of those bricks is just their natural preference. But that can change with context and become too definitive. Yeah.

The other danger is somebody comes into the office and looks at those stack of bricks and they Assume that the person is going to behave in this particular way and they might do. And they might have more of a tendency to behave in that sort of ways.

And I think so it drives self fulfilling prophecies in people because they see themselves as this. And it can drive unhelpful assumptions around the assumption a person might make in terms of how they're trying to engage and communicate with them.

So just treat them as a, as an indicator and a starting point. Okay. For that sort of thing.

Yeah. So a lot of these tools measure preferences or traits.

We've been talking on this series in relation to confidence about masks and the masks that we wear when we're under pressure.

Yes.

So I've got a question for you. We've talked about masks in a number of the episodes so far.

How are masks different from the traits or the preferences that personality profiles measure?

Yeah. So on our online confidence pathway, we use this idea of a confidence compass.

And there are four interlocking masks, as we call them, mapped to the two continuums on the confidence compass. And if you want to know more about that, our confidence online pathways available. And you end up with four distinct masks.

The pretender, the overachiever, the striver, and the self doubter. Now the point of these masks is they're not intended to be defining for the person.

It's just an indicator to show the sort of masks that we tend to reach for and hold it to protect ourselves when we feel unsafe or under pressure. Okay.

Right.

Now the interesting thing is that you might have a tendency to reach for one mask more than the others, but it is context dependent and you will more than likely reach for all of those masks depending on the situation. Situation that you're in. What I mean by that is you reach for one mask in this situation, one mask for that.

So it's pressure dependent, it's context dependent. And these are not personality labels. So if you like their masks and patterns under pressure, does that make sense?

It does, yeah, it does make sense.

Yeah.

So another popular tool, Rich, is disc profiling. Very, very popular tools used by a lot of people.

Obviously there's four main behavioral traits that that tool measures and one of them would be dominance.

So for example, somebody who's got a strong trait for dominance in their behavioral profile, is there an element of truth in that someone with that trait might gravitate to a particular mask more than others in our confidence compass?

Yeah, most certainly. Because the model that we teach is actually, you know, the masks are the unhelpful behaviors and Personas that we reach for under pressure.

And what we want to do is to put down the mask and to come back to what we call the connected center.

So, for example, somebody with a dominance preference in a situation, they're likely to be the type of person that wants to be the best, wants to be the person that's heard, wants to be the voice in the room. And that aligns quite strongly with our overachiever mask in our confidence model. So, yes, I think you're exactly right.

A person with a strong dominance preference probably will be the people that most often reach for the overachiever and to some degree, to the pretender mask as well. So. And we go into more detail about the masks and what they mean on the pathway. And I think the previous.

Was it the previous podcast where we spoke about the masks in more detail?

We did, yeah.

Yeah.

So let's. I said we were going to dive in with a very specific tool today and use that as a lens for talking about confidence in the workplace.

And the reason we've chosen the High Potential Trait Indicator is, is because what it measures is your potential for going into leadership and into higher levels of leadership and how likely you are to perform at those higher levels. So it's quite a good measure of whether somebody's got leadership capability or leadership potential. And what it measures.

There's probably three broad domains of potential. One is career potential. What I mean by that is the attributes and the skills that have manifested through experience.

And clearly, ideally, the more experience you've got them, the more you've got potential you've got, because you've got much more to draw on. There's what I would call the growth dimension. So attributes that can be improved with guidance and motivation.

So things like skill sets, for example.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But then there are some foundational attributes, and these are sort of very stable across time, and they predict success in all people.

Okay, okay, okay. Yeah.

So the HPTI Profile High Potential Trait Indicator is measuring some of these foundational traits.

Okay. I think that's related to that. Is that related to the big five?

I think what's called in the psychology world is related to the big five, although there are six here. So I think. I think Thomas International have added another one. I think it's strongly related to the big five sort of personality traits.

It is, it is, yeah. So hpti, I think, going back to what you said. Yeah. Is not the truth.

No.

It is just a lens into you as an individual.

Yeah.

And it might help predict how you might perform in a leadership role, but it's not definitive. Let's be clear, because as you said, there's lots and lots and lots of other facets that make up a human being.

So why do you think now we've positioned what an HPTI profile is? Why do you think that's a useful lens to look at confidence through, Rich?

Well, it goes back to some of the points that we were talking about earlier.

So when we reach for a mask, that will be context dependent, and the type of mask that we reach for could be determined by the way we're wired, the way that we're made up. So in other words, our own unique response to that situation.

So, for example, you picked something from the disc profile into called the dominance trait. So as I said, the dominance trait will mean potentially that you might reach for one of these masks more than the others.

So it'd be useful, I think, to look at the six traits of this tool and then to reflect on how those traits play out in different contexts and what sort of masks that you might tend to reach for as a result of your natural preferences.

Okay, so let me just walk you through. We'll go through what the six traits that this profiling tool measures one at a time.

Our position, what this trait is actually trying to tell us, the measure is trying to tell us, and then you can probably translate that for us in terms of how it relates to confidence.

Okay.

Yeah. So let's take the first trait adjustment. Okay. So this is to do with emotional stability under stress, basically.

Now, for people who are imagining what this profiling tool looks like, when you complete it and you get your report back, you get like a dial. Okay. And a dial that goes from low up to very, very high. Okay. And the ideal score for leadership is designed to be somewhere in the middle. Okay.

So it's got a sort of a high and a low score. Neither are bad. It's just different.

Okay, So a high score on adjustment that suggests people who are very calm under pressure and have fewer feelings of stress when they're under pressure, whereas somebody gets a much lower score, they tend to experience a lot more stress and worry. So how is that translated into confidence?

So I think potentially this can play out in. I'm just going to take two masks and compare and contrast them with each other. So in our confidence model, we have the self doubter mask.

So that's the person who tends to diminish doubt themselves and underplay their competence versus the overachiever who wants to be the dominant person in the room and wants to Be the best in the room.

So if you have a natural tendency where your score is high on this adjustment, so in other words, you know, you're in a situation where the stakes are high, the pressure is high, and you just, you know, you just go with the flow, you know, ride the wave and a very little emotionally affected, that potentially could be a good thing. Okay.

But actually if it's not balanced with a healthy dose of humility, and we've talked about humility in previous podcasts, it means that you can go into situations and, you know, lack empathy for those around you and you know, misunderstand the stress that other people are under and almost like reach for the overachiever, the dominance sort of approach, you know, so that, so on the one hand having a higher score and that means actually that you can stay more calm and stable and potentially more confident. But if it's overplayed, it could be an Achilles heel. The more obvious way that it plays out is if you have a lower score in this.

So in other words, you're a person who naturally responds emotionally to a situation and you're driven by self doubt and rumination and sort of threat response that then potentially means that you could reach for the self doubter mask, you know, much more readily than somebody with a higher score. So that's an example of how that sort of trait might play out in two ways.

Yeah, yeah.

And I guess if somebody who is going through some conference issues and had one of these reports and that you can get these reports from us if you want one, it would be, would be some extra data and information to think about how conference plays out for you.

Yeah, yeah.

Because the other thing I would say is if you have a lower, you know, what's called a lower score from this profile and tools perspective, that's not necessarily a bad thing because actually if you're the person who has some natural self doubt, if that's properly managed and that's properly grounded through a true sense of humility, it means actually that you're not going to, you know, just blast through this situation with bluff and bravado. You know, you're prepared to question yourself, you're prepared to speak, be self reflective and listen to those around you.

So you know, it can play both ways. This.

Yeah, yeah.

And the way also you can use the, the tool because, because it puts each of these six traits onto like a dial, as I said, and the dial goes from low, moderate, optimal and excessive. And ideally, obviously for more senior leadership, you want to be somewhere around the optimal Level.

But obviously if there's a trait here where you're not, but it does help you to sort of work out. Okay, if I want to sort of stretch myself a little bit, what do I work on?

So it just gives you that, okay, let's go on to the next of the traits that it measures. So it measures something called risk approach.

You know, I guess you could, in very simple terms say that's courage when you're having tough conversations.

But what it says on the report is those who score high on risk control tend to bring a reasoned and rational approach to difficult situations and to conversations, whereas a lower risk approach characteristically indicates more instinctive and emotional decisions. So again, let's talk about how that plays out in terms of confidence. Rich.

So probably this risk approach can play it in two ways. I would say through conflict, through the lens of conflict, and through decision making. Okay.

Okay.

So, you know, the danger for somebody with, you know, potentially what's called a lower score on this is, is they may be conflict avoidant and go in on themselves.

Or so that could be the self doubter mask using our model or the pretender model is they might become defensive or aggressive because they don't want to show their vulnerability. And the conflict sort of challenges that.

The danger with somebody with a higher score is actually they might be willing to confront and decide, but it might be, if that's unhealthy and overplayed, it might be at the expense of listening to others and the desire to dominate and be the best in the room.

Again, so as a leader, I think the question to ask is, in terms of your response to conflict, do you have a tendency to go into fight mode or flight mode and around decisions, do you have a tendency to want to step up and be the person with the answer, or are you prepared to listen to other people's perspective?

And to be fair, good decisions are often a balance of, you know, it talks about rationality and reasoned approaches, but also instinctual responses and intuition do play a part. So actually, a lot of good decision making is a balance of those two things. It's not just one or the other.

Yeah, yeah. And it's important to stress here that when we talk about confidence, this is not bravado.

So this is not the confidence to sort of go up against somebody and have a fight, but this is the willingness to show it with courage from the connected center where you're still valuing the other person and you're valuing yourself equally as well. So when we talk about self worth in Our confidence compass. It means that the self worth axis is in a healthy place.

Yeah. Okay, let's go on to trait three. And I think this is a really interesting trait for the times that we live in.

Ambiguity acceptance, AKA comfort with uncertainty. Okay, so what the actual report measures.

So those with a high ambiguity acceptance score usually thrive on uncertainty and complexity, whereas those who find it more difficult to cope with ambiguity, they might like situations where there are clear cut answers and solutions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So comment on that one, Rich, from a conference perspective.

Yeah. So I think ambiguity can be a real challenge for people that naturally reach for the pretender mask.

So the pretender mask is somebody who wants to appear the best in the room and is not prepared to show their vulnerabilities.

You know, so ambiguity and uncertainty challenges competence that they want to keep hidden, you know, or gaps in competence that they want to keep hidden, you know, they don't want to ask for help and that drives unhelpful behavior. From that mask's perspective. The other mask where this plays out is a self doubter mask.

You know, so where people will go in on themselves and you know, the ambiguity will drive that high level of self doubt and it means that they won't want to take risks and they will crave certainty over clarity.

And I guess try and over control things as well.

And trying to over control things as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So Rich, let's go on to the fourth trait, which is conscientiousness, which is sort of control versus trust here. Okay.

And I'll read out what this means. So those who rate themselves as being highly conscientious tend to be focused on goals and how to reach them. They will usually be self motivated.

Those who score lower on this trait. Okay. They'll tend to be more easygoing, spontaneous and open to new insights. How does that play out in terms of confidence?

So I'll perhaps look at this trait through the lens of the striver mask, I think, because the striver mask is quite interesting because the striver are the people that tends to use achievement and results and developing competence and doing stuff to compensate for low self worth. So these would be the type of people that probably be doing, doing, doing. They'd be reliable.

They'd be the sort of people that, you know is always working. The sort of people you ask to get the job done. Yes.

So actually the challenge for these people is, and the challenge for the striver is where perfectionism starts to become the unhealthy response to a situation. Yeah, yeah. So in Other words, they want, they want to do the perfect job. They had difficulty delegating because.

Because it's all about them doing stuff to compensate for their lack of self worth. So the need to be in control and not to trust other people I think is particularly a challenge for the striver and perhaps the overachiever as well.

Yeah. Okay, so trait five, one of my favorites, curiosity. Okay. So the confidence to learn and adapt.

So in the report it describes curiosity as those who have a high curiosity score often like novelty, they like learning and they like variety. By contrast, a lower curiosity score suggests a liking for tried and tested methods and consistency.

And this might sound a bit obvious, but how does that apply to confidence?

Yeah, so I think a person who's naturally curious perhaps actually might be the person that naturally reaches for the self doubt mask because they're prepared to ask themselves the awkward questions.

So actually if you can put down the self doubter mask and just be driven by natural curiosity and humility, that can be a real strength and asset for the natural self doubt to.

I think the challenge for the overachiever is because they want to be right and they want to be the top dog and the person in control and potentially the striver as well is the tendency to push away curiosity because they're relying on their competence and their need to be the best in the room.

Yeah.

And as I've always said, I think people who have a high degree of curiosity who are always willing to stretch themselves, always willing to ask themselves what is it? I don't know or I think I know, but I could be wrong. Yeah, yeah. That's a good trait for any leader to have, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

And the last trait on this tool is competitiveness. Okay. Which I guess is you could, you could sort of try and badge up as ego versus influence. But I'll read out what it says.

So high competitiveness scorers are typical of people who enjoy positions of power, influence and recognition. Whereas less competitive people prefer cooperation and collaboration and they may dislike the spotlight.

How does that play out in terms of confidence?

So I'm perhaps going to look at this through the mask of the pretender and the overachiever. So on the confidence compass that tends towards the self worth where it's important psychologically that they see themselves is the best in the room.

They like to compare themselves favorably or over favourably to other people, you know, so the pretender and the overachiever will probably be likely highly competitive and need to show themselves is achieving stuff and you Know, winning essentially and delivering results.

So the challenge for people who tend to reach for those masks is to know when the drive and the competitiveness is serving them well and when it's not serving them well.

Right, okay.

So it's important that competitiveness is like a fuel for confidence, but the danger is it can distort it if you're not careful.

Absolutely. Okay, so that's the six traits that an HPTI profile will measure.

They're very important traits as hopefully people can see for leadership positions, particularly as you get higher up in leadership positions. Yeah. So let's bring it back. Let's bring it back to where we sort of started in the beginning. And I think you flagged up at the very beginning.

Traits become limiting only if leaders see them as definitive identity.

Yes, exactly.

We're much more than just a series of our traits.

Yeah.

But hopefully from Rich's explanation of how these traits map across to a confidence profile, they do have significant impact.

So, Rich, I guess the first question here is how do we stop these profiling tools which we should use if they're the right thing to use for self awareness? How do we stop them becoming boxes that we put ourselves in?

I think the first thing I would say is be careful of I am language.

Okay.

Which is sort of what I said earlier. You know, I am an introvert. I am an extrovert. That's very binary and not very nuanced.

So I prefer to use the terminology, although it's slightly more long winded. You know, I have a tendency towards introversion.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that doesn't mean I always access my introverted side. And that's always driving my, my thinking, my emotions and my behavior.

But it has a tendency that I access my introversion side more than my extroversion side. So sometimes I do get my energy from being around people. That's extraversion. Okay. And I really enjoy that and get energy from that.

That's the extrovert side. So it doesn't mean I'm just an introvert, but I have a 10 a strong introvert preference.

So probably if I have a long day of engaging with people and being with lots of people, my introvert preference will show itself by me wanting to go home, stick my feet up and not talk to anybody for an hour.

But actually I can go to a workshop and you know, feel the energy in the room, you know, be really motivated by having people around me and that gives me energy. So I have both aspects accessible to me as a person. But it. So it shouldn't become an I am an introvert. I'm an extrovert. I'm a fiery red.

I'm a cool blue because that can become a cage. So I think it's important to treat traits as tendencies, not identities or. Yeah, goals, I suppose.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that is really, really important.

I guess a lot of these tools, some of these tools, not all of them do actually make specific comment on what happens to those traits or those preferences under pressure.

Yes, I know we've talked about whole brain thinking on here a number of times and the whole brain thinking profile will actually talk about your general thinking preferences, but it specifically also talks about how those may change under pressure. So I think some of these tools have got very, very specific pointers, if you like, about how you may react under pressure.

And that's really important for confidence because confidence tends to sort of be its weakest under pressure. That's the point you've made.

The other thing I would say is, you know, if you've been on a workshop with somebody where you've used something like Insights or MBTI or whatever, and then the peer next to you shares their profiling tool with you so you understand what their natural tools and preferences are, do not assume that they will always show up is that trait.

And the other tendency that people tend to do is they will notice a behavior, maybe an unhelpful behavior in one person and they say, oh well, that's because they're an introvert or whatever. And I think that can be extremely disempowering and annoying because it reduces a person to a two dimensional being, if you like.

So to be sure, in that particular situation, introversion might have been a contributing factor to their behavioral or cognitive or emotional response, but it's not the whole truth. It's not the whole truth.

So just use profiling tools as a starting point for self awareness and if you like, is a useful lens to think about understanding your peers in a helpful way that helps you develop empathy for them.

Yeah, absolutely. So for anybody listening to this thinking, actually, you know, maybe I do occasionally have issues with my confidence. I'm a leader.

Maybe a good approach would be to use our confidence compass and our confidence pathway, but align that to any profiling tools you've previously used, or if you haven't ever used one, we can help you select one.

But the two things together start to build up a little bit of a picture and a little bit of a toolkit for you as to how you can, as you said, adapt in any given situation.

Yeah. Yeah. The point I would make is this is not an either or. I think so.

We've intentionally developed our confidence compass to be used alongside these tools.

And it nuances and deepens the view of you as a human being so that awareness can be used to draw you back into your connected center, which from our perspective is the place of true confidence.

I think you made the point and I'll just repeat it again. Self awareness is not a verdict on you. It's a starting point for you developing yourself, particularly developing your confidence. Yeah. Okay.

Rich, any closing thoughts or tips you want to put out there?

No, I don't think so.

I would just, just reiterate, don't use I am language and don't use your knowledge of another person's trait from a profiling tool they may have completed and then make assumptions on them. So it's as simple as that, I think. Yeah.

Great tips. Great tips. So if this episode has helped you make sense of why confidence feels different for different people, the key takeaway for you is this.

Profiles are lenses. They're not labels to put on people. And I think Rich made that really, really clear in his explanations.

They're very useful when they increase self awareness and help you make better choices, basically.

Yeah. Choices is the key word, Dave. Yeah, absolutely.

So in our next episode, we'll go beyond the psychology altogether and we'll explore the deeper foundations of confidence. We'll dive into meaning and purpose and what it means to be grounded in something bigger than just performance.

Because confidence is about a much more than just performance. So, Rich, thanks for your time and to all of our listeners, thank you for listening.

Thank you.

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