Ever mused over the true core of creating lasting bonds? Dive into this episode of Elements of Community where Caitlin Cogan Doemner and Lucas Root flip the switch in a captivating interview dialogue. This week, rewind the scenes as Caitlin, initially the interviewee, steps into the host's shoes to interview Lucas Root!

Embark on this riveting journey, as Caitlin passionately unravels Lucas's profound insights into the six indispensable elements he believes essential for nurturing deep and long-lasting communities. From purpose and collaboration to joyful engagement, Lucas shares it all in this heartwarming exchange.

This unique twist of roles provides a fresh and engaging perspective on the Elements of Community. Don't miss out on this golden opportunity to learn how embracing these elemental principles can empower you to craft connections that withstand the test of time. Mark your calendars for this enlightening discourse on unity - a truly unmissable experience!

In Wall Street, in corporate America in real estate ventures and entrepreneurship and consulting land. And he's now doing his doctorate degree on community as the technology that allows us to be truly human and the author of the book "Elements of Community". So Lucas, welcome to your own podcast.

Yeah, we're in the homestretch getting that finished.

It's now it's out.

No doubt Now it's out in a couple of months, I'll get to introduce you as Dr. Lucas Root.

Yeah, that is right.

So Lucas, why don't you start with an overall framework of why community, why is this topic important to you at all?

Yes. Thank you. So we actually put out a really powerful thesis statement in our last episode about partnership Maslow was wrong. Community is necessary for security. Community is necessary for food, water, and shelter. As an animal, humans are not capable of those things by themselves. And so we're insecure if we don't have a community, not food, water, and shelter, actually it's community that makes us secure.

I saw the kinds of decisions that were being made everywhere I could see it. All of those decisions were decisions of insecurity. Overeating is a decision of insecurity. If you have enough food coming to you in your next meal and the meal after that, you don't need to overeat in this one. You're going to approach this meal differently.

And even though I know that I can go to the grocery store and get beef, if I'm insecure at my core, that knowledge is irrelevant.

Anytime they choose. We didn't actually run out of toilet paper in 2020. Like, it didn't happen. It wasn't a problem. Even though everybody bought all the toilet paper they could possibly put their hands around, we still didn't run out. My wife called me up and was like, you better go get a whole bunch of extra toilet paper.

And I was like, yeah, we're good. We got two weeks worth at home. Like, I don't need more than that. They're running out. Yeah, they'll get more like I didn't approach that decision from insecurity, but she did.

Or you could buy a bidet, which is what we did.

Better much better.

So the world around you is acting insecure.

All the time.

All the time.

Overeating is a good example hoarding is a good example, but there's others too and this is gonna be the first time people will hear this from me. Not you though is insecurity.

So it's not just drug abuse, it's addictions in general. Pornography, drugs, alcohol, work. Right? We have more people addicted to their careers than ever before.

That was me. I had a work addiction. That's what Wall Street, my experience of Wall Street was really cool, really exciting work that I did way too fucking much of. And yes, the culture drives you in that direction. But it's your car. It's your car. You can hit the brakes if you want to.

So what is the outcome? So security, when you have your community, it looks like security. What are the other benefits of having community? Why would you bother with this at all? Because it's a lot of work to build and maintain a community to invest deeply in people. What's the benefit? What's the payoff?

I love that. First, let me question, is it really a lot of work? Or is it actually just the work? Like, it is the work.

What other work matters?

It's not correct. Fight or flight is a second step somewhere way beyond where normal predators operate all the time. Predators don't live in a world of fight or flight. We live in a world of opportunity or mundane. There's no need to consider fight or flight. Everything that we see in front of us is either an opportunity. It's something that we want to go after, or it's ignorable.

That's it, you actually have to be pushed out of security in order for fight or flight to exist.

That makes sense.

Now we have triggers. There are natural triggers that push things out of security. For example, if the ground is shaking and there's a whole bunch of hounding going on, it could be elephants or hippos coming your way, and a lion's gonna get the hell out of the way of those things.

It is triggered by that noise, right? But it's not gonna jump up and skeedaddle. It's gonna pay attention, because that also could be a herd of wildebeests. Opportunity. it doesn't approach that situation from fight or flight. First, it approaches that position from opportunity. Is this an opportunity? Not fight or flight. Do I have to respond to this? Do I want to respond to this? It's so.

And then fight or flight. Nope, it's not will to Beasts. And it is something I have to respond to. Alright, now how do I want to respond? Because I have to. Elephants are hippos, right? How do I want to respond? Because I have to. But it wasn't until I have to respond happened. That fight or flight turned on.

So community turns us from potential prey into predators is what you're saying, because we have our pride around us. We know that there's enough of us that we can take on whatever we need to. And so we can feel secure, which is interesting because I think a lot of people, maybe not your listeners, but I think a lot of people in our society associate predator with a bad thing.

Well fact, we know from yellowstone that when you don't have wolves the prey animals destroy the landscape.

That the apex predator is necessary for a healthy ecosystem. So we have an unhealthy ecosystem because we have a bunch of predators going around eating grass.

There's a statement. Let me ask you a question back. How did you interact with me being a fully awake embodied predator as you were interacting with me as a, not even as a partner yet, just as a. You know, someone that you wanted in your life.

And I was like, I know you're not safe, but you're good. And that's better. I do not want a timid person. Like, if we're talking about creating a hunting pack, like. You better damn well know how to hunt if you're going to be in my hunting pack, I do not want somebody who's afraid of weapons and afraid of the world. Like you are useless to me. So I recognize that having a good. Awakened, enlightened predator [00:11:00] on your side is better than running with bunny rabbits.

Yeah. The phrase if you're running from the bear, you don't have to be the fastest. You just have to not be the slowest has always bothered me. Cause that's a fight or flight response. But we are the apex predator, bear is food. Why are we from it?

If there's enough of us to outrun, then there's enough of us to take it.

Yes, why are we running from our food? That's my food, why are we running from it? We started off in the wrong place when we brought that phrase up. We're in the wrong place. A predator. We can talk about fight or flight later. That's my food.

So, how many of us do we need to take down a bear, Lucas?

Say more about that.

Well, we need all the people that make the electricity, and we need all the people that mine the ore that turns the gun and bullets into guns and bullets, and we need the people that operate the factory that creates the gun. And you know where I'm going with this. It's an enormous cost for that bear to get taken down in a modern, in the world of modern weaponry.

But here's the thing. We're actually a way more efficient animal than it would seem inside that story. It really we really can do it with just six. We have way overcomplicated it in a beautiful way. I love our technology. I wouldn't take it away. But we have way overcomplicated it. We can do it with just six.

Fascinating. So one of my favorite phrases of yours is that we are wolves, not tigers. The idea that a tiger is a solitary predator, but wolves cannot take down their food as a lone wolf. The idea of a lone wolf is a misnomer, right? That you have a pack. And the pack takes down the prey. And so you have this idea that six is the perfect number for everything.

Everything.

They don't count.

That kid can pick up a spear and kill the bear as well as you can. They don't count as part of your pack. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. So cubs don't count. And so you need five awake, credibly deadly predators who've got your back and can help you take down whatever it is that you want to take down. And this is your community, yeah.

Yeah. That's the smallest size and the base structure.

I love it. So, one of the conversations that I've been having a lot lately is one about AI. And in fact, I had it as a podcast episode here. One of the things that AI is doing that I love, that I'm so in love with, that I'm so delighted with is that it's taking over all of our repetitive tasks. All of them, people are responding to that with fear.

The veneer is getting torn off. What we're gonna see when we get through the pain on the other side is something that's really quite beautiful. The value of humanity has never been task completion. And when AI takes over task completion, what it's doing is removing from our hands the thing that's keeping us from our true value.

But it's not individual. We are not tigers. And in this way, particularly, we're wolves. The value of humanity is iterative collaboration. And it's core to that value that we can collaborate. Iterative collaboration, it does not work alone. You have an idea, I level that idea up, and I put it out there. And you level it up again, and you put it out there.

Well, I think what I'm hearing is just that we're going to move away from what we talked about in our last episode of humans only having value as a production center and start moving them into value as a being center that this human is worthwhile. And that. It's when they're young, when they're old, that they are inherently valuable because they are them.

Right? And so it's going to take away a bunch of roles and responsibilities that we've confused as identity and that we've used to build this sense of self worth. And it's going to force us to think through who am I? Why am I here? What am I good for? Right? And start hopefully coming back to these core principles of humanity, which is I'm here for you. You're here for me, right? And that, I think is really beautiful.

Yeah. Thank you. Yes, that.

But where do we find it most often? Right? How can you give them a sample? If somebody's listening, they have a community. I understand what this means, but what is it? How does it feel? Like, how would I recognize it? What's the texture of community?

Fun. My favorite is like, my sister, my older sister lives in a little cul de sac in Sacramento. And she has really deeply built relationships with all of her, not all of her but some of her neighbors. And to the point where she changed out the locks on her house.

And it's not necessarily Wednesday night, this isn't like a standing date, but like, this is a thing, and so I go taking a step back when my sister and I first started living close together again, right? It's been 25 years since we lived close together, and I called her up one day, and I was like how come you don't invite me over, we live close now, and she said just come. Maybe give me some notice, maybe let me know, but really, like, just come, and if you don't give me notice, I'd rather you show up, even without notice, than not show up.

Than not be here.

For the people with whom that has resonance, right? That's what community means to me, but it can exist like that in all sorts of different places. You could have real community at your workplace. You can have people that support you, that, you know, you show up and there's no reason why anybody should give a shit.

And your boss comes around and notices your seat's empty. And your co-worker's like, Oh, he just stepped out to get some coffee. He'll be right back. As soon as your boss turns their back, co-worker's on the phone. You better be here in like 10 minutes. I bought you 10 minutes, but you better be here in 10 minutes.

And there's no reason, there's no benefit to the co-worker except that the co-worker loves you. Not romantically, maybe even they don't recognize that they love you, but they love you.

They've got your back.

That's the hallmark.

Start digging in there. Start grabbing hold.

Find the people who have got your back and get theirs. Yeah. I love that. So how do we start building this? Let's say, yep. I'm in. I like it. Lucas, you've sold me. I want more of this in my life. How in the world? Do we begin building this thing?

So I have the six elements.

Yes.

And this is actually kind of funny because the way you ask the question is going to make me answer it differently. Here are the six elements. Common language. A purpose, projects that we do together, value that you give and receive the social contract, and common heart.

And the answer to how we build it is actually going to be focused very deeply on Purpose Project and the Social Contract. The usually places where you draw people in. Those are the places where you start to isolate in a good way. The language elements that are the language of your community you start to isolate the value of the community the value that you want to contribute and begin to contribute the value that you want to receive and begin to receive from that community and don't misunderstand when your co-worker called you and said hey, I bought you 10 minutes. Get your ass over here. That is value.

That was a gift.

Now is this, are we talking like our personal purpose? Like why I'm on the planet?

No.

Okay.

Great question. No, so your personal purpose matters and you should be in pursuit of that all the time. Whether, if you don't know it, it's out there and you will find it. But this isn't the purpose of your community. The purpose of your community is something else. At its core, the original purpose of community was security.

Every single one of us needs to be able to hunt. Every single one of us needs to be able to cook. Every single one of us needs to be able to coach a baby. Every one of us.

But only half of us need to feed them.

No, actually, every one of us needs to feed them. Do you know how you feed a baby when you don't have milk available?

No, I don't because I have milk available.

Yes, you do. You chew the food, and you spit it into the baby's mouth.

All right. Well, there you go. I was just thinking about the fact that any woman can start creating milk in response. It's a suckling at any given moment. Like, if you need to, it's there for you.

Ironically, so can some men.

Interesting.

I'm just trying to think how we're going to figure out which are the one third.

Well, you wouldn't. Because a baby can also survive on pre masticated meat, right? That is the original pre processed baby food is you take some meat off the kill that you just.

Pre masticated mastodon.

That's right, you chew it up until it's all fully 100% chewed. And your saliva has started to actually process the meat in there and the flavor in your mouth is starting to change and you spit it into the baby's mouth and the baby will eat it and live. And live well.

Fascinating.

Yeah, milk is better.

And milk is better.

It is milk is better.

Okay, so going back.

100% of us can feed a baby too.

So, yes, we are naturally not specialized.

We are naturally not specialized.

We need to do everything.

I can have a, you know, an electrician's community. Which, in modern day, might look a lot like a union. I could have a traveler's community. Something with which you are very familiar. So, purpose is number one. Identify the purpose around which you will have your community coalesce. What is the purpose that brings them together?

You want to have stronger muscles, go to the gym and break down your biceps, break them down so much that they hurt like hell for two days. But that hurting is actually rebuilding stronger.

We work that way in everything, break it down, build it back better. And that's where that happens inside community is in projects. We break things down and build it back better. And as we do that, we start to identify the way. In which we, as a now highly specialized community, are choosing to engage.

And then contract.

Project second contract third

What does that entail?

Contract. It's this is a new conversation for us here on the elements of community podcast. So I figured out in january, let me say that differently. I knew about this. I was fighting against it.

Didn't want contract to be one of the elements of community, but it is. What I realized what that I was fighting against in January is that we do naturally have rules around our engagement and the rules involve all of the elements of community.

I'm assuming we have spoken and unspoken ones. Yes?

Yes. Although there isn't really any necessary, like there's no necessity to having unspoken rules. It's okay to speak them.

Well, I know, but I would say like most of us, I don't know, very, I don't know. I'm a little bit of a weirdo, so I do like articulating it. I'm thinking of back to my fifth grade.

Such a weirdo.

And it was like, I needed to define the relationship, like, Are we do we get to be best friends and like 5th grade on right? Even how everybody years later it is. Like, she's still 1 of my best friends. She was standing up with me at my wedding. Like, I know I can call her for anything, even though we live far apart and we don't talk that often. Like, there's just that foundation that we laid, but I had to make it explicit. I think of other things like marital vows are us being explicit.

When somebody gives you a gift. Like, I think we have a lot of kind of rules of engagement that we learn in intuitively. But it's not like, I mean, you can buy a book of etiquette and you can see that what you are and aren't allowed to do according to the rules of the Victorian era, but I don't know that in general, most of us are going around, like having conversations about our social contracts with our friends, you know.

But then, you know, in stark contrast, my sister called me and said, or I was on the, I called her that time and said. Screw that rule, it's more important than you, that you show up than that you call. Yes.

Yes.

Is this where you want to share the story about you and Jenny?

It could, this is a good one. It's a good one. Early on when I was dating my now wife, then girlfriend something happened and I don't even remember what happened. And it resulted in her being angry with me and I said, well, let's talk about it and she said, you know what you did. Now, this was early in our relationship, so it actually doesn't matter to me that I know what I did.

It's effectively irrelevant. And I sat down and I said, alright, it's time for us to have a conversation about this. She was all ready to have a conversation about what I did. That was not the conversation we had. I said, here's the rule. We're gonna have a rule. Here's the rule. From now on, there is no relationship rule in our relationship at all.

So give me an example of what's one of the rules that you guys came up with. Is it like. We're not late. We're like, what kind of rules did you guys implement?

It turns out that most of our rules are pretty normal. If I'm going to be late, I have to let her know I'm going to be late. It's okay to be late, but I have to let her know I'm going to be late. Now she and I ended up having a big fight about that one too, at some other time. And that's when we defined that rule.

Like she was out drinking with her friends and hell yeah, go do that. Like I'm a hundred percent behind it. And we had plans. And you know what? Sometimes being out drinking with your friends is just fantastic, and it's rolling beautifully, and you're in flow, and you don't want to break that flow, and, you know what?

But, my time is really important to me. All of it, all of my time. if I'm sitting there waiting for you to be done, then my expectation, and this is the rule that we then defined, my expectation is, you're going to treat that time that I'm waiting for you as important to you. So if you're not going to be done for an hour longer than you expected, or two hours longer, then you call me and you let me know.

We're all agreeing to them and obviously I'm going to say the more explicit the better, right? Because the unspoken expectations are usually the ones that cause relationship problems personal and professional, right? So getting all of that up and out and clarified and agreed to whether it's in writing or just verbally.

I totally love this. This is very helpful. And then what's next? You mentioned language is language coming through all of this, which is now that we've done stuff together. We have stories that we tell, we have a contract that we use, this common language just appears naturally.

Yes, you start with English, or Spanish, or, you know, whatever language you're going to speak while.

Yes. So at its most basic level, you start with a language that you can communicate with. As you engage more deeply, you build a new language.

A new lexicon.

Yeah you go more deep, you go more personal, you go more intimate with your language. And the intimacy of that language reflects the intimacy of the community. Now that intimacy is going to look like common stories that you tell about the work that you've done together, stories that you tell about the way that you've broken down together, and stories that you tell about the way that you have rebuilt together. It's also going to look like inside jokes.

Oh, I was just thinking of gang bandanas, like wearing your colors.

Wearing your colors, body posture, movement, eye contact versus not. And that language will be identified and deepened in the projects that you do.

Started snickering because I went to a very conservative Christian college, and I wrote an article about how you could choose your soulmate exclusively on their looks alone. And it did not get approved to go into the school newspaper because they were like, we can't tell if you're being serious or not.

How they stand, how they look, what clothes they've decided to wear, how they walk into a room. Like, they are communicating their identity. You may not know how to read their, the identity, right? They may be going through a crisis and now they're wearing all black and mascara and have fake tattoos down their arms.

So, yeah, I think that's interesting that this actually makes sense that this is the hallmark of community that this becomes your identity will shift and reflect or just qualify you to be in, right? Like it's like a KKK community, like skin color is one of those identifiers. It's gotta be a prerequisite if you're going to be a part of the community.

So it's just thinking through how we use identifiers, in your words, common language as a way to both attract and like, create and maintain a community, a shared identity from the collective individual identities.

Thank you. Well done. Yes, all of that. Projects will also start to identify the value that you can give and the value that you can receive.

This is individually.

Okay.

There's a, so what we do, right? What? Huh? What we do? So we group into community. It's our natural grouping. And you see lots of unhealthy versions of that because it's natural and we're unhealthy. So you see lots of unhealthy versions of that out there.

And I really hope that the way this story that people hearing on here. And the way that I'm talking about it. An the way that you helping me tell this story is helping people see that there is a way to do this in a healthy way and that they should. And once you have a community, now communities start to interact together. So, first there's the individual human interacting with the community that makes them whole. And you're not whole unless you have a community.

And the answer is both.

And the answer both. That's right. I live in an android.

And an Android world, but that's.

That's 100%.

So we have to give and receive to our individual community and then our bigger community. Like if we think of these as sort of Russian dolls, right? We have layers of communities. Yeah?

So it's not value they're contributing, even though they have it, they're not contributing it. They have to find something else to contribute. Sometimes it's as simple as we need 13 bodies and we only have 12, you make 13 and you don't sound horrible.

We'll take you.

You'll get stronger in the things that the community itself requires. We need 13. You don't sound horrible, you're in. Six months down the road. Hey, you know, you started out not sounding horrible and now you're pretty good. You're identifying through projects, the value that you can contribute to the community and the value you want to receive from the community.

My community is telling me they want me.

Is it?

After this I'm out, right? You don't love the community enough to cultivate those strengths and those skill sets in order to contribute more value. If you do value the community, you will take the time. You will take the effort to get better, take singing lessons, learn pitch, right? All those sorts of things. Because it's the community that's important and it will just happen if you stay in it, if you're committed.

If you're committed. And then the last is heart.

I was going to say, where does commitment fit into this?

Other languages do. My favorite is the Greek word philotimo. If you translate philotimo, you will get love of honor, which is unfortunate because again, we don't have a good way to describe this concept, but it is so much more than love of honor.

We also just don't know what honor means there's like levels of which we do not understand this word.

It is a description of how important to you the success of the community is and your success in the community. It's a description of what you are willing and able to do when you show up for the community. And so what I say is philotimo is showing up for the community. In the projects at your best all the time, every time you show up.

Reminds me of Jesus is love your neighbor as yourself, right? And this. The paradoxical irony is that you need to love yourself in order for this mantra to be useful as a guiding principle. So that loving the other neighbor is loving yourself in philotimo, the way that I love you, the way that I show up is how I love myself because I need you in order for me to be whole in your words.

Fascinating.

So at its base level, I need you to get food, but at its next level, right? In pursuit of Ascension, I need you to see myself.

I need you to see myself. We are each other's mirrors.

We are each other's mirrors, the best version.

Hopefully. This is why you need to pick good mirrors.

Love it.

What you need in your best moment is also the same. You need a mirror. You need to see yourself at your best. If you can see it, you can be it. It's not just in others, it's in yourself.

By seeing the best in others. We also see the best in ourselves. I love this idea.

And that's all in heart. That's all in Philotimo.

Love it. All right. Anything more we want to say about community on our six elements of community episode?

Well, I'd like to also show that I am also stubbornly coachable.

Why?

Why? Because I don't want to define things. We don't need to call ourselves boyfriend and girlfriend yet. Like, let's just let it be what it is. Here's the thing. The contract is there anyway. Think about that. The contract is there anyway. And if we don't take the time to have the conversation that my wife and I had, that you and I had, Caitlin, then you may be in violation of your contract and not even know it.

Right? So boundaries in relationships, especially make you more free. It's this. Again, we also like paradoxes, that when you implement the boundaries, you are more free than you were before you implement.

Well, to add to that, and going back to the hunting metaphor that I use so often, that you just beautifully used. And thank you for that. People are like, well, what if you have a ravine that you can chase an animal down? Then you can kill it alone, and that's true, you can.

As a species.

That's right. We have a strategy as an animal, as a species, that makes it possible for us to create consistent replicable success. That's true of humans. It's true of every single animal.

We don't succeed because we occasionally find a ravine and occasionally are lucky enough to chase an animal into it. That's not how it works. As a hunting party, we provide the boundaries of the hunt. We create the boundaries of the hunt. It takes six of us to make a ravine.

We are the line. The bear will not cross.

The same is true inside the community. We work because we create that boundary. We work because we create that social contract. And I was wrong to fight against that. I was wrong to allow our modern culture of let's not define that, over my recognition of what's actually core to us succeeding as an animal.

But you're also all about iteration, so you were willing to. Get feedback and make changes and that's the whole point, so.

Collaborative.

Bravo.

Hell yeah, there it is.

Oh, I love it. So, if people wanted to get in touch with you, Lucas where would they find you?

There's a new answer to that EcstaticWay.com.

I love this question. I love it so much, I ask it all the time. It probably would be some version of when's your book coming out?

Great idea. So let me ask, when is your book coming out? The now six. Not five "Elements of Community" by the soon to be Dr. Lucas Ruth. Where, when is this coming out? How they find it?

Now, if I was publishing right then in January, that would have been fine, it's still a fantastic piece of work. But I wasn't publishing right then in January. This was the pre publishing proof copy. That I get to go through with a red pen and figure out all the last little things that I want to change before we go to publication.

Well, in the realization of all the things that I had done wrong, not that there is any such thing as truly wrong, in the realization of all of the ways that I still wanted to iterate on the ideas that I had here in these pages, I also understood the breath of the conversation and the approach that I had taken.

Rather, it's for everyone. And it wasn't just, these are the things I could change. But rather, this is the way it needs to change in order for it to be a true representation of the conversation that I'm having. And that was a big rewrite.

And a wonderful one. I've enjoyed engaging with it deeply. And in the process, I also have gotten closer to graduation day for my doctorate and for better or worse. As I approach my graduation date for my doctorate, that has taken priority.

So I haven't continued writing the book in the way that I want to. So from today I would say we're four or five months out from the finished version and then another two months from publication.

Yeah.

By Dr. Lucas. I love it. Any parting words?

Set aside your perfection and find somebody that you're willing to break things with and fix them with in a very real sense. Go be human.

Love it. Go be human. Build a community best you can. I love this. Thank you so much, Lucas. This has been amazing.

Thank you, Caitlin. You're awesome.