Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 6 Episode 8 of People Soup, it's Ross McIntosh here.

Today my guest is Dr Debbie Sorensen, Clinical Psychologist, podcast host and author of the book - ACT for Burnout. The ingredients Debbie brings to people soup are curiosity, exploration, ACT and omelettes. You'll also hear Debbie's song choice and how we have more things in common than our birthdays - including the joy of dancing at weddings and conferences.

For those of you who are new to People Soup - welcome - it's great to have you here - I aim to provide you with ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular P Soupers - thanks for tuning in - we love it that you're part of our community.

• Psychologists Off the Clock – A Psychology Podcast About the Science of Living Well
• Website - Debbie Sorensen, PhD
• Debbie on substack
• Debbie on LinkedIn
• Debbie on facebook
• Debbie on Instagram
• Debbie's substack post on the perfect omelette

I worked with Russ from A Modern Remedy on my new brand and website. A Modern Remedy is a human-focused strategic design studio, delivering innovative solutions for people & planet. I'd thoroughly recommend working with AMR and you can check out their website here.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

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PART ONE

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 8 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:24] I mean, I don't, I think almost everyone I've met who's an ACT therapist. got into ACT because they learned about it and realized this is what resonates for me personally. This is what I want in my life. And I was the exact same way. I mean, ACT just really, it fit with my experience more than any other therapy I had trained in up to that point.

[00:00:54] The ingredients Debbie brings to PeopleSoup are curiosity, exploration, act, and omelettes. You'll also hear Debbie's song choice and how we have more things in common than our birthdays, including the joy of dancing at weddings and conferences.

[00:01:40] Let's take a quick scoot over to the news desk. Hot news is that I have a new brand and a new website, which you can check out at rossmcintosh. co. uk. That's rossmcintosh. co. uk. Let me know what you think. You might even want to sign up for my newsletter. My brand and website were [00:02:00] designed By Ross from A Modern Remedy. I'm delighted with the outcome. And there's a link to find out more about A Modern Remedy in the show notes. Right, let's crack on. So for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Debbie Sorenson.

[00:02:24] Debbie: Thank you, Ross. I'm so happy to

[00:02:28] Ross: Oh, I'm delighted to have you here too, Debbie. And you'll be familiar, I have a research department and they've been looking into you and they've come up with a few things. So I just want to read them out to you to check they've got it right,

[00:02:43] Ross: So it says here, Debbie is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Denver, Colorado. she's a co host of the popular psychology podcast Psychologists Off The Clock and author of the books Act For Burnout and the Act Daily Journal. We're going to be coming back to Act For Burnout in the second part of our chat I spoke to your friend Diana Hill about the Act Daily Journal a while back,

[00:03:15] Ross: Excellent. Debbie has a bachelor's degree in psychology and anthropology from the University of Colorado, Boulder, and a PhD in psychology from Harvard University. Now it says here that you specialize in providing individual acceptance and commitment therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy for adults.

[00:03:42] Your career has involved working with veterans with spinal cord injuries, neurological conditions, and chronic pain.

[00:03:56] behaviors in the veteran population.

[00:04:14] Ross: yeah, we'll probably come back to that when we, when we delve in a bit deeper into your career.

[00:04:21] Ross: You started your private practice in 2019, and you are passionate about teaching and training mental health professionals too.

[00:04:45] Debbie: That's right.

[00:04:47] Ross: And it says here you are an ambassador for all there is to love about your home state, Colorado.

[00:04:57] Yes. Mm hmm. In fact, this past

[00:05:10] Ross: Wonderful. Now, for P Supers, we're recording this on the 30th of September, and what we discovered last week is that me and Debbie are birthday twins. 24th of September.

[00:05:25] Ross: happy birthday Debbie. Next year we should maybe have some sort of simultaneous activity where we blow out cakes or sing to each other.

[00:05:37] Ross: Now, there was some slightly more sketchy research. It suggests you're in talks to have your own TV show about bringing act, humanity and practicality to cooking.

[00:05:49] Ross: it says here the pilot episode will be the perfect omelette

[00:05:53] will pay homage to Julia Childs.

[00:06:01] Ross: A little bit, yes.

[00:06:05] technically not correct, but I do know how to make a good omelet. Yes.

[00:06:20] omelette, and it does pay homage to Julia as well.

[00:06:34] Ross: Yeah. What I loved is the way you described it, so you won't get a kind of rubbery, matte type thing

[00:06:43] Debbie: Yes, that's right. That does not, I rarely order omelets at restaurants because I don't trust them to be, to make them right. Yeah,

[00:06:53] But I did love, love the detail and the photos for that, so thank

[00:06:59] like omelets too?

[00:07:01] Debbie: Oh, good. Okay. Another

[00:07:04] Ross: yeah, Because I live in Spain, they specialize in particular types of omelettes. Not, not your, what my husband calls French omelettes.

[00:07:26] standard omelette. You can cut slices of it, but it is delicious.

[00:07:33] to try it, That sounds really good.

[00:07:43] Debbie: What's your stance?

[00:07:49] Debbie: You like

[00:07:50] Poss Spoons

[00:08:02] and some pivotal moments along the way in your career. Yeah,

[00:08:30] So I would let myself read my psychology textbook only after I had finished all the work I didn't want to be doing, which was every other class. And at the time I was planning to go more into biology and I wanted to go to medical school and I, Realized maybe I should just do this. This is what I love.

[00:09:12] I looked at all different options. I considered more academic jobs and in the end decided I needed to. Make that pivot. And so I went back and did my clinical training at that point. So I had to respecialize. So I ended up being in school for about a million years or so. By the time I, from the moment I started graduate school until the, you know, I finished my last day of training was quite a long process because I did not do it the most efficient way.

[00:09:56] Ross: sounds like quite, uh, non [00:10:00] linear. Career

[00:10:02] Debbie: Yes. Yes. And it wasn't a complete change. I mean, I do think that there were a few pivots along the way, but they were all, I think they were all within the general field. Um, and actually my background, my research background, which was more in developmental psychology. And I was, you know, in a psychology research lab and everything.

[00:10:36] Ross: Yeah, but I think that as you're indicating, I think that non linear path brings richness to what you do and a broader perspective from your, for example, your developmental

[00:10:48] Debbie: yes, I think that's true. I think that's true. I don't know if it was worth all the years of, you know, student loans and, you know, not, not having a professional income, but it was definitely, yes, I agree. I think there was richness to that.

[00:11:10] psychologist in your school days, do you think?

[00:11:13] Debbie: Uh, that's a good question. I don't know about that. I think that, you know, I was a, good student my whole life. You know, I was kind of an early reader. I always liked school and really invested in my schoolwork all the way through and worked really hard in high school and college. And so I don't think, at least to me, I don't think it's a huge surprise that I stayed in school a long time and that I did pretty well in school given how invested I was.

[00:12:04] And so I think that I was in part drawn to the field because of some of those types of personal experiences that got me curious, I think. And clinical psych training really does teach you about yourself a little bit. And I think it helps me understand some of what I had been through. None of which was, you know, I'm not talking about anything majorly traumatic here, but just some complicated stuff that I went through as a younger person.

[00:12:33] out.

[00:12:35] Ross: Is that what led you to anthropology

[00:12:38] Debbie: Uh, yeah, I mean, I think that for me, a part of the reason I double majored was because I loved both of those fields, psychology and anthropology, and it was really, I didn't want to give either of them up. And so I think I just have this fundamental curiosity about human beings and anthropology and psychology are both tackling that big questions about what make us humans.

[00:13:43] And it's just these really interesting questions about humans as an animal. And I think about that. In my clinical work as well, I think about humans as social creatures, and you know, how we are sort of wired [00:14:00] as, animals.

[00:14:18] Debbie: Yeah, and I love that way of framing it as exploratory and I think I still do that a little bit. I'm pretty solidly grounded in my work as a therapist and clinical psychologist, but I still do meander a bit even within what I'm doing as a clinician. You know, I changed from my work at the VA and to private practice.

[00:14:54] Ross: Absolutely. Now you mentioned the VA, the Veterans

[00:15:00] work there, please.

[00:15:33] I was in health and rehab psychology and. Yeah. I mean, I loved it. It was really, really interesting work. I loved the people that I worked with there. I love my population of veterans that I worked with and, I was there for about, probably about 12 years. And then kind of faded out. Like you mentioned, I was doing some work with a program focused on suicide [00:16:00] prevention for a while after that part time.

[00:16:04] Debbie: I did. I think that, especially

[00:16:29] and I mean, I learned so much from them. So many of them were just, you know, really wonderful people to work with. And I think, you know, had some very unique challenges in the world. And so it felt very much like, um, you know, a privilege, I think, to be able to work with that population. It had challenges, of course, too.

[00:17:07] Discovery of ACT

[00:17:10] separate. I'm not sure, but when did you discover ACT, Debbie?

[00:17:42] And so I just got a, a little bit of information about ACT there and it, it kind of sparked my curiosity, but I didn't know very much at all. Just, Cursory level. And then during my internship year, I had more exposure to act. There were a few people there that were interested in act, and I was able to [00:18:00] do a an act workshop, which really Lit something within me.

[00:18:33] I mean, I don't, I think almost everyone I've met who's an ACT therapist. got into ACT because they learned about it and realized this is what resonates for me personally. This is what I want in my life. And I was the exact same way. I mean, ACT just really, it fit with my experience more than any other therapy I had trained in up to that point.

[00:19:11] and then going, Oh, Oh, I need to share this with more people.

[00:19:20] Debbie: That's a great question. I don't know.

[00:19:26] tell you, I'm sure other, I'm sure that's true of other therapies as well, but for me personally, by the time I came to ACT, I had trained in a number of therapies, and I didn't feel that. I personally didn't feel that way about other approaches, but maybe other people did feel that way, so I'm not sure.

[00:19:45] Ross: I, I've got a limited perspective on it, to be honest, because the main approach I've been trained in is

[00:19:53] Ross: So I don't have the wider perspective of, uh, for instance, CBT, or [00:20:00] DBT for that matter. So I definitely see

[00:20:08] Debbie: Well, I'll tell you, I, I probably did resonate with certain elements of both CBT and DBT and I, I had studied some existential therapies, psychodynamic therapy, some other different therapies that I trained in along the way and ACT really did pull everything together, including my antrhopology degree, because it's a contextual behavioral science and the, the I didn't get the contextual part as much in other therapies that I trained in.

[00:20:59] It really tied together so many things that I resonated with and no other therapy had done that in that way for me before.

[00:21:12] decided to set up in private practice? How was that?

[00:21:19] happened was

[00:21:45] But not only that, I didn't really want to be. working that much at that point in my life with my family and my kids. And so I went down to part time at the VA and, and I did that for quite a number of years. And then I got to the point where my kids were both in [00:22:00] school and I realized I realized I needed to make more money. And so I thought, okay, I need to either go back to the VA full time or start a private practice on the side. And I decided on the private practice on the side because I, I just felt like, I loved my job at the VA, but I also kind of felt like I wanted to change a little bit.

[00:22:41] it was really I agree. Partly to have a change of pace and also partly to have more flexibility. I did a couple days a week at the VA and a couple days a week of part time private practice. And then at some point, I couldn't sustain that anymore because my private practice was going and I really got to a choice point where I needed to decide either I'm going to make a big change and go into private practice or Stay here, you know, and just keep this private practice small and at that point in my career, I had been through a period of burnout, which I came out of and I was doing okay.

[00:23:38] I think it was scary.

[00:23:41] Debbie: but in a way it was also great timing because I was able to very easily just start seeing private practice clients virtually at the time when everybody needed to be doing that. And so, In a way, it worked out really well, but it was a very strange time to leave a job I had had for so many years.

[00:24:16] Ross: sure, I like your reflection that the, timing, that it was actually, it could be viewed now as quite useful.

[00:24:39] Podcasting

[00:24:43] Clock. As a podcaster to a podcaster, Debbie, how did you get into

[00:24:50] Debbie: That was a complete fluke because what happened is that I knew someone, so when I was in graduate school at Harvard, I knew this, Guy Marshall Poe, who was a friend of mine, and we were both at Harvard at the same time and got to know each other through Lowell House. I was a resident tutor, and he was the assistant dean, I think.

[00:25:26] They interview authors and they have all these different channels. And Marshall asked me if, I'd be interested in Doing some psychology interviews for him. And so I started doing that and at the time it felt like I don't think I would have ever thought of doing that if it wasn't for Marshall. And so I did a few of those.

[00:26:03] And we had this thought, well, maybe we should start doing some therapy. Interviews for the new books network and we can make this our thing and then it occurred to us. Well, we could actually do our own podcast

[00:26:18] Debbie: we were kind of affiliated with the new books network. We would post cross post author interviews, but we kind of again wanted a little bit more flexibility to just be able to do what we wanted to format the interviews how we wanted and.

[00:27:04] I've been doing it since 2016, which is almost eight years now. In November it will be eight years.

[00:27:11] That's a great achievement.

[00:27:29] we also have help with editing and posting our episodes now, which really helps. We have some administrative support for that. So that saves a lot of time, which is great, but I love doing it still. And if you would have asked me 8 years ago when we were just starting it up, how long we would be doing this, I would have never thought we would be still doing it at this point.

[00:28:09] And it won't be forever, it'll

[00:28:15] Debbie: you know, I've been putting a lot of thought into this since I knew you were gonna ask me your famous question. And the first song I thought of is the one that stuck, which is a song by Rihanna called, I think the title of it is, I Found Love in a Hopeless Place. Or maybe it's just love in a hopeless place.

[00:28:55] Ross: yeah, I, I,

[00:29:03] song.

[00:29:04] Ross: I'm with you, I like it.

[00:29:09] with

[00:29:11] Debbie: Yes, that's the

[00:29:13] where do you love to dance?

[00:29:37] Well, that's not happening with my husband at least. Maybe someday I'll do it on my own, but I used to go, out to dance clubs and sometimes I would take, you know, salsa lessons or swing dance lessons or something like that. But these days I don't dance as much, but I did recently go with a couple of friends spontaneously.

[00:30:22] years

[00:30:23] Ross: Oh, I'm feeling, feeling the power here, Debbie. And

[00:30:29] reception.

[00:30:33] Ross: Yes, please.

[00:30:54] And I said to my husband, I don't think I'm going to dance. I'll just turn in early, get some sleep. I'm presenting in the morning. You know, seems like the smart thing to do, but we were walking, and he was kind of like, yeah, right, uh huh, sure. And we heard music and I just said, okay, I'm just gonna stop it.

[00:31:29] He knew. There's no way.

[00:31:53] You can email at people soup dot pod@gmail.com. On Twitter, we're at Ross [00:32:00] MyCoach. On Instagram, people do soup. And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. You can help me reach more people with the special people soup ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review.

[00:32:26] and near to where we live, we live near Seville in Spain. about five minutes walk, there's a petrol station. And just on the side of the petrol station, there's this, it's called El Tete. it's a cafe, it's a very small cafe, you can get coffee, and it also makes omelettes, these Spanish omelettes, tortilla de patata.

[00:32:56] Debbie: Yum.

[00:33:03] Debbie: Yeah, I'm thinking I need to. Now that I hear about this, maybe I'll come out for our birthday next

[00:33:09] Debbie: We'll meet for an omelet.