KEJI MOSES: 00:00:00

That pain or that experience of losing Mayah will never leave me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:06

It's going to be there until I'm gone.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:10

Right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:11

But I'm going to make it my creative offering in any way

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:15

that I can to support families.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:18

Those I speak to, those I meet every single day that are going

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:23

through those experiences as well.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:25

And I just want to let people know that it's not the end.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:32

You know, for me when it happened, it was like, "This is it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:35

Take me out.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:37

I don't want to see another day."

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:39

And like I said to my husband, I said I was like at the edge of a cliff

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:44

and I was about to just jump off.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:47

And that would've been it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:50

And what kept me from not jumping off was my children.

KEJI MOSES: 00:00:55

You know that I looked at them and I said, "they need me", right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:01:02

I felt that I had a purpose that gave me the hope.

KEJI MOSES: 00:01:07

And also importantly, I had a good support system around me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:01:13

I'm a person of faith, you know, I prayed about my experience.

KEJI MOSES: 00:01:20

I felt like I surrendered to the purpose in which I have been called

KEJI MOSES: 00:01:25

to journey on, and I prayed for the wisdom to be able to do the right thing.

KEJI MOSES: 00:01:34

And here I am.

VIKKI: 00:01:37

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

VIKKI: 00:01:42

But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

VIKKI: 00:01:46

times the darkest of places.

VIKKI: 00:01:49

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

VIKKI: 00:01:54

struggling with parenting.

VIKKI: 00:01:56

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

VIKKI: 00:01:59

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

VIKKI: 00:02:02

please listen with discretion.

VIKKI: 00:02:05

Today's episode covers miscarriage and baby loss.

VIKKI: 00:02:11

This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

VIKKI: 00:02:16

Today's guest is Keji Moses, founder and C.E.O.

VIKKI: 00:02:21

of Mayah's Legacy and Goddess Hub C.I.C.

VIKKI: 00:02:25

She is an author, podcaster, maternal mental wellbeing consultant, certified

VIKKI: 00:02:30

coach, and professional grief counsellor.

VIKKI: 00:02:33

She's an advocate for maternal mental wellbeing.

VIKKI: 00:02:38

Keji's journey as a mental health advocate started in 2018.

VIKKI: 00:02:42

She was a pregnant mother of a baby girl.

VIKKI: 00:02:45

She was going to name her Mayah but she was devastated when she found out that

VIKKI: 00:02:49

her Mayah was stillborn at 35 weeks.

VIKKI: 00:02:54

Needless to say, it took some time to find her bearings.

VIKKI: 00:02:57

After all, coming back from such a great loss would require a massive amount

VIKKI: 00:03:01

of mental and emotional fortitude.

VIKKI: 00:03:05

That incident allowed Keji to acknowledge the need to shed light on the mental

VIKKI: 00:03:09

health impacts of a pregnancy loss.

VIKKI: 00:03:12

It was important to her to empower and support families affected by

VIKKI: 00:03:16

this very personal tragedy, and advocate for the care they need.

VIKKI: 00:03:20

Thus, Mayah's Legacy was founded in 2020.

VIKKI: 00:03:24

Thank you Keji for joining us on Blue MumDays today.

VIKKI: 00:03:27

I feel tremendously honored that you've chosen to share your story with us.

VIKKI: 00:03:32

Before we start, I just wanted to make a note for listeners.

VIKKI: 00:03:35

Today's episode is a real life experience of someone who has been through it

VIKKI: 00:03:39

and come out the other side and is now using their journey to positively help

VIKKI: 00:03:44

other parents in a similar situation.

VIKKI: 00:03:47

Because of this, the conversation will cover baby loss and stillbirth.

VIKKI: 00:03:51

So if this is likely to trigger you, please listen with discretion.

VIKKI: 00:03:55

We will also signpost you to help and support in the show notes.

VIKKI: 00:04:00

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:04:02

So Keji, thank you so much for joining us today.

VIKKI: 00:04:04

I hugely appreciate it.

VIKKI: 00:04:06

And I have to say, you're looking absolutely gorgeous.

VIKKI: 00:04:09

I'm loving that colour combination- I love a power lipstick!

KEJI MOSES: 00:04:13

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:04:14

How you today?

KEJI MOSES: 00:04:16

I'm good actually, I'm very good.

KEJI MOSES: 00:04:19

I was looking forward to this interview, so it's going to be

KEJI MOSES: 00:04:23

an interesting experience for me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:04:26

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:04:27

Oh, well, it is a very safe space here on Blue MumDays.

VIKKI: 00:04:30

So, it's a very, um, relaxed conversation.

VIKKI: 00:04:34

You already had a son before you gave birth to Mayah.

VIKKI: 00:04:40

So how old was he and was everything okay with that pregnancy and birth?

KEJI MOSES: 00:04:44

He was, um, I would say three years old going to four.

KEJI MOSES: 00:04:52

Um, that pregnancy was fairly okay.

KEJI MOSES: 00:04:57

Um, apart from the fact that I had a little bit of anxiety

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:01

because prior to having him, I had had a 12 weeks miscarriage.

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:07

And so I, yes, I was, I had a lot of anxiety, you know, during that

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:14

pregnancy, but everything went well until it was time to deliver him.

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:21

Because I had a lot of complications, you know, with during the pregnancy.

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:27

And so I wasn't intended to have a C-section.

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:32

Again, it was supposed to be a natural birth, but I just

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:35

couldn't go through that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:37

Um, my body wasn't, you know, aligned to have that experience, so they

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:43

had to do an emergency C-section.

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:46

And having him and seeing him, his face kind of made, I forgot about everything

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:50

else because I just looked at him and I literally busted out crying because I was

KEJI MOSES: 00:05:55

so happy and relieved that he was okay.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:00

And so, yes, he was about three years old.

VIKKI: 00:06:04

When you finally met your son for the first time, did you

VIKKI: 00:06:07

feel that sort of rush of, of love?

VIKKI: 00:06:09

Did you feel sort of a wave of happiness or just relief?

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:14

I was just relieved.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:15

I was relieved that he was okay.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:18

I was relieved that he was healthy.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:20

I was just relieved to see him.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:23

And then, you know, shortly after that I had to deal with my own kind

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:28

of health issues because, you know, I've spoken about this before.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:34

I had too much epidural and so I was having difficulty breathing.

VIKKI: 00:06:40

Oh, wow.

VIKKI: 00:06:41

I've, I've not even heard of that.

VIKKI: 00:06:42

So is that, is that a thing that can happen?

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:45

Yes, they, they, yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:46

I think they give it too.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:48

I think when they gimme too much and it's higher up, it's

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:52

can, affect your breathing when you come out of that, of the op.

KEJI MOSES: 00:06:57

So I was having that, that situation happen to me and then

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:01

they were trying to kind of calm me down and trying to resolve it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:05

Um, at that point I think I was...

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:08

all kinds of things was going through my mind.

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:12

I went into a panic state of mind, and the doctors were trying to just calm me

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:17

down and, and eventually everything kind of calmed down and I was, I was okay.

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:23

But yeah, that was what happened shortly after I gave birth to him.

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:27

But after that experience and I had him with me, it was just, I was just

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:33

thankful and just grateful to have him.

VIKKI: 00:07:36

That sounds like a very frightening experience for you though.

VIKKI: 00:07:40

Did you find you had, ill effects from, from dealing with that trauma

VIKKI: 00:07:45

while you were looking after your son when you first took him home?

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:50

I was very protective.

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:54

I was very, very protective over him.

KEJI MOSES: 00:07:58

I was very protective in terms of, I didn't really want anybody else to kind of

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:04

have him outside of my immediate family.

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:07

Because I just did not want a situation where I would experience loss again.

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:13

You know, because I had the previous miscarriage.

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:17

It was something that stood ... the memories and the images of the

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:23

whole experience -that whole birth triggered a lot of emotions.

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:30

It was meant to be a joyous experience and I was happy to have my son

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:35

there, but it was a mixture of, of it triggering how I felt, um, before.

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:44

And so that overprotectiveness over him, making sure he was all

KEJI MOSES: 00:08:48

right, was very, very strong.

VIKKI: 00:08:53

Yeah, I can completely understand that.

VIKKI: 00:08:56

And actually, um, one of the episodes released , is an interview with my mum,

VIKKI: 00:09:02

who had several miscarriages and she was always very overprotective of me, and

VIKKI: 00:09:07

I can totally understand that now, sort of knowing the loss she went through.

VIKKI: 00:09:12

Was your first baby loss acknowledged?

VIKKI: 00:09:16

Were you given time and space to grieve?

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:21

Not really.

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:22

It was very clinical, um, because I've heard about people having miscarriages.

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:29

When I actually went through the whole experience, number one, I

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:34

was shocked that this had happened.

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:38

I was devastated that this had happened, but it was a matter of,

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:44

you know, "This had happened to you.

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:46

What do you want to do about it?

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:49

Do you wanna have a D.C.

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:52

or do you want it to happen naturally?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:55

And at that point, it wasn't registering in my mind.

KEJI MOSES: 00:09:58

And they just said, "Okay, think about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:02

We can schedule a date for you now."

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:05

And I'm like, "You don't understand.

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:07

I have seen a heartbeat, right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:13

And you are now telling me that there's no heartbeat and you're not even allowing

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:19

me to process this information and saying to me, " Do you need someone to talk to?

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:26

We have a counsellor to speak to you."

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:29

It wasn't that, so I just called my husband and he came straight

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:32

to the hospital and I said, "No, I want another ultrasound."

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:37

I just didn't believe what they said to me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:40

And they said, "Okay, fine.

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:42

Come the next day."

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:43

I came the next day and it was the same outcome.

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:48

And at that point I decided that, 'No, I'm not having a D.C., I'm going to

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:54

allow this process to happen naturally."

KEJI MOSES: 00:10:57

But what I didn't realise was my body was not going to allow that

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:03

to happen in one or two days,

VIKKI: 00:11:07

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:07

It was two weeks.

VIKKI: 00:11:09

Oh my goodness.

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:10

Two weeks I was at home and I was waiting.

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:13

And I was waiting and I was waiting.

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:16

And actually that was quite a dangerous thing because anything could have

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:21

happened, um, to have a foetus that's no longer, you know, alive in you.

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:29

And then when the actual experience started, um, I remember I was at home

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:36

and my husband was with me, and my youngest son was with me at that time.

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:40

And it just happened, and I can't, I can't explain it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:50

I came out, you know, they were standing outside the toilet and

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:55

I came out and it had happened.

KEJI MOSES: 00:11:58

And so they had to make sure I was okay.

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:02

My mum was a little bit, my mum was very worried.

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:04

I won't say a little bit, she was very worried

VIKKI: 00:12:07

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:07

actually.

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:08

And coming out of that, and then that was like, okay, the natural,

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:13

um, process has happened now have to now face the emotional and the

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:20

mental, um, the mental experience that I had to experience after that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:29

And I didn't really get any phone call from the hospital after that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:33

I think miscarriages is one of those things that I think the healthcare

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:37

system just sees that it's, it's another thing, you know, whether it's

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:43

12 weeks, whether it's five weeks, you should be able to bounce back.

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:49

It's either that or they don't have the resources or they've not actually

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:52

really thought through the mental health impact of those experiences because

KEJI MOSES: 00:12:57

whether it's 12 weeks, whether it's five weeks, it's a, it is a child.

KEJI MOSES: 00:13:01

It's, it's something that you're connected to.

KEJI MOSES: 00:13:04

It's a hope.

KEJI MOSES: 00:13:05

You, you imagine the name, you've imagined the future and then that is now

KEJI MOSES: 00:13:11

cut shut and it doesn't matter whether it's five weeks or 12 weeks, it still

KEJI MOSES: 00:13:15

matters and I think that is not something that is being thought through properly.

KEJI MOSES: 00:13:20

Hopefully things will change.

VIKKI: 00:13:24

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:13:25

And hopefully we can help be part of that change because I

VIKKI: 00:13:30

think you are absolutely right.

VIKKI: 00:13:31

Because unfortunately the statistics are very high, that I believe one in

VIKKI: 00:13:36

four pregnancies end in miscarriage.

KEJI MOSES: 00:13:39

Yes.

VIKKI: 00:13:41

Possibly- I mean, I can't talk on behalf of the medical, um, service,

VIKKI: 00:13:46

but I can . Imagine it's very routine for them that, that it happens a lot.

VIKKI: 00:13:53

And because of that, there must be some sort of desensitisation to it.

VIKKI: 00:13:59

But if you are the woman going through that yourself and not just the woman,

VIKKI: 00:14:02

you know, it's the birth partner, if you're lucky enough to have a partner,

VIKKI: 00:14:05

they also experience the baby loss.

VIKKI: 00:14:08

And I think, you know, whilst it's not acknowledged for the,

VIKKI: 00:14:13

the actual gestational mother,

KEJI MOSES: 00:14:16

Hmm.

VIKKI: 00:14:16

it's even less acknowledged -the pain and the grief and the loss for the

VIKKI: 00:14:21

partners, the non-gestational partners.

KEJI MOSES: 00:14:25

Yes.

VIKKI: 00:14:26

How did your husband cope with the loss as well?

KEJI MOSES: 00:14:31

He wasn't showing any emotions.

KEJI MOSES: 00:14:33

I think for when I had the miscarriage, he wasn't showing emotions.

KEJI MOSES: 00:14:38

The only time that I saw him break down and cry was with my daughter Mayah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:14:46

And because we had really gone far into the pregnancy, he was, you

KEJI MOSES: 00:14:53

know, part of the whole process.

KEJI MOSES: 00:14:56

He was excited, he was happy, you know, we've got two boys

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:00

now we're gonna have a girl.

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:03

And then that happened and it was just, it was too much for

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:08

him and he broke down he cried.

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:13

Um, they came to the hospital.

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:15

He brought the kids to the hospital to see me and we just

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:18

had a really intimate um, time.

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:22

My eldest son, he's very sensitive and he, he was really attached to

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:27

this pregnancy and he was excited to have a sister and he just cried

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:35

and he was really upset about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:39

And so he, now he doesn't really wanna talk about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:43

He just says "Mummy I don't really want to speak about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:46

Can we not talk about it please?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:49

Um, and, and, and that is the impact that it has on the family as a whole.

KEJI MOSES: 00:15:55

It's not just the experience of the mother.

KEJI MOSES: 00:16:00

It affects every single one.

KEJI MOSES: 00:16:02

And are we checking that?

VIKKI: 00:16:04

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:16:05

Yeah

KEJI MOSES: 00:16:05

But one of the things that I did was I, told the school,

KEJI MOSES: 00:16:09

I said "This is what has happened and just to look out for him, um,

KEJI MOSES: 00:16:16

just to make sure that he's okay."

KEJI MOSES: 00:16:19

And they were able to kind of do that for us.

VIKKI: 00:16:22

Yeah, because as, as you say, if you have young children, I mean,

VIKKI: 00:16:26

obviously depending on their age, there's only so much that they can sort

VIKKI: 00:16:30

of take in because it is a nebulous concept before you have the child.

VIKKI: 00:16:34

They see, you know, mummy's tummy getting bigger and they might talk

VIKKI: 00:16:37

about it, but they are part of that.

VIKKI: 00:16:39

And you know, for them, nine months is a really long time, you know,

VIKKI: 00:16:44

it's a really long time to young children, so it's been part of

VIKKI: 00:16:48

their everyday experience as well.

VIKKI: 00:16:52

So you had your, your very first pregnancy loss, which

VIKKI: 00:16:55

ended very sadly in miscarriage.

VIKKI: 00:16:58

You had your lovely baby boy and then you went on to have another son successfully.

VIKKI: 00:17:05

So are you happy to talk about your experience of your pregnancy

VIKKI: 00:17:08

with Mayah and losing Mayah?

VIKKI: 00:17:11

Because I'm, I'm very conscious, it's very personal and I don't want you

VIKKI: 00:17:14

to go deep into anything that you're not feeling happy to talk about or

VIKKI: 00:17:20

comfortable to talk about today.

KEJI MOSES: 00:17:23

Yeah, I could talk about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:17:27

That experience for me, it had, there was different aspect of the

KEJI MOSES: 00:17:35

pregnancy that was very challenging.

KEJI MOSES: 00:17:37

Um, number one, she had a diagnosis of Edward Edwardian syndrome,

VIKKI: 00:17:43

yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:17:44

at 22 weeks and she wasn't growing very well.

KEJI MOSES: 00:17:48

She had complications even whilst I was still pregnant with her.

KEJI MOSES: 00:17:52

So because of that, I was sent to a specialist hospital and I had

KEJI MOSES: 00:17:58

consultants that were, um, monitoring the growth and everything else.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:03

And I will go into a room and I could have about six consultants in there.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:08

And they were just looking and measuring and talking within themselves.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:14

And then I would just lying down there not understanding what had happened.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:18

And they would kind of brief me, but it was always a negative report.

VIKKI: 00:18:26

Wow.

VIKKI: 00:18:26

Were you on your own or did you have your husband with you?

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:30

Some appointments.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:31

I was on my own, in some appointments I went with my husband because

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:35

the hospital that I had to go to was like an hour away from home.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:40

Because it was a specialist hospital.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:42

And so sometimes when he is at work and I have an hospital appointment, he can't

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:47

make it, in some appointments he made it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:49

I usually will go by myself.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:52

And I remember a point where I was beginning to have anxiety to go.

KEJI MOSES: 00:18:59

Every time I had an appointment, I had an anxiety feeling.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:03

I just didn't want to go.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:05

I was so scared because I just didn't want to hear another negative news.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:10

But what kept me going was because when I went into this appointment,

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:14

I saw a heartbeat and I was hopeful that, yeah, she's hanging on and

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:20

so I'm going to fight for her.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:23

You know, I'm going to continue to fight for her.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:26

But in that experience, I had my own health complications.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:30

I ended up in hospital with a 22 sugar level and the normal was seven.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:37

I had, I had 22.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:39

Um, I had a headache that would not go away and I just

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:42

thought this was not normal.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:44

So at five o'clock in the morning when everyone was sleeping, I got into

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:48

the car, I just 'listened to my body.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:50

I said, no, this is not right.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:51

I got into the car and I went straight to the hospital.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:55

I said to my husband, don't worry, you stay with the kids.

KEJI MOSES: 00:19:57

I'll just drive myself.

VIKKI: 00:19:59

Even, despite the headache?

VIKKI: 00:20:00

My gosh.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:02

I walked in and as soon as I walked in, they

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:04

said, "You are not going home.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:06

We are keeping you.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:07

They kept me for a week.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:10

I had drips, I had a C scan, CT scan, I had the whole thing because they

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:17

said "You could have had a stroke."

VIKKI: 00:20:19

Oh my goodness.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:20

That's how serious it was.

VIKKI: 00:20:22

And was that related to the Edwardian syndrome?

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:25

Yeah, it was related to that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:27

Because my body was reacting to the whole experience that it

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:34

was going through and you know.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:38

And I remember the consultant said to me at my last ultrasound

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:44

before my C-section, she said to me, "Look, think about yourself."

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:52

She said, "I'm not letting you go home.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:54

You are not going home.

KEJI MOSES: 00:20:56

You are staying in hospital and I want you to think about yourself,

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:00

think about your other kids."

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:02

That's what she said to me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:03

She looked at me right in the eye and I knew at that point she was just saying,

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:07

you know what, whatever will happen with this pregnancy will happen with this

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:11

pregnancy, but you want to be alive to be able to look after other children.

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:18

And so she did.

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:19

She said, "No, you're not going home."

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:21

And I'm grateful that she, she did that, um, because then I was able

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:27

to kind of calm myself down and then really, seriously think about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:33

And so, yeah, I stayed in hospital and then I was released and I went home.

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:41

And at that point, at that last appointment, I remember my husband

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:46

and I sat down and he was tired.

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:48

He was just really physically exhausted, mentally exhausted.

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:53

At that point, he's like, he gave up and he was like, "You know what?

KEJI MOSES: 00:21:56

Whatever happens, happens.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:00

"That was what he said.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:02

And so when we left the hospital, part of me said, "You know what?

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:06

Whatever happens, happens."

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:07

So I went home and a couple of days after, I wasn't really feeling a lot of movement.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:15

And a part of me knew something had happened.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:18

And so I called the hospital, I had my C-section the week after

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:22

I called the hospital on a Sunday and I said, "I'm coming in."

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:25

And they said, "Well, you're not scheduled in today.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:28

You're scheduled in next week."

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:29

I said, "I just need you to check her.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:32

I just need you to monitor her."

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:33

So I was walking through hospital.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:37

What happened was that there was two couples standing outside and there was

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:42

a guy who had like a leather jacket.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:45

I would never forget this.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:47

And when he turned around, his t-shirt was written 'tragedy'.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:53

I'm a very kind of person who picks things up.

KEJI MOSES: 00:22:57

And I saw that and it stood in my mind and I walked into the hospital and

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:03

they checked and they did everything.

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:05

And they just said, you know, the consultant came in and

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:08

said, "I'm really sorry.

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:11

But there's no heartbeat" and because she was lying across, they'll have

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:16

to do a C-section for me again.

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:18

And I think I broke down because I'm gonna go through this major

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:23

operation and I'm not going to have a child at the end of it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:28

And you know, my husband was crying.

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:33

I was then taken to another room and the registrar came in, lovely lady.

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:40

And she said," I'm sorry that this had happened."

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:44

And she looked at me and my family was there and she said to me, and I

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:48

think this was a way that I have really appreciated what she did, she said,

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:55

" We'll schedule it for tomorrow morning, but do you want to stay in the hospital

KEJI MOSES: 00:23:59

or you wanna go home with your family?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:01

And I said to her, "I'm gonna go home with my family."

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:05

And she said, "Alright, then you can."

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:06

So she allowed me to do that and I'm really grateful for that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:10

I went home, I had my family around me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:14

I had to gather my thoughts together to be able to, you know,

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:19

prepare myself for the next day.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:21

And I was very shaking.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:23

I was really, really shaking.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:25

I couldn't control the shaking when it was time for me to go to the theatre.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:31

Because I said, you know, at the back of my mind I was saying, "I wanna

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:36

wake up of, I don't want anything to happen to me during this operation."

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:42

So I said to the anaesthetist, I said to him, "Please, can you put me to sleep?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:49

and he said, "No.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:50

I'm not going to do that."

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:52

And I was just begging him.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:53

I said, "Please put me to sleep.

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:55

Um, I want be asleep when you do this."

KEJI MOSES: 00:24:58

And then he, he walked out and he came back in.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:01

He said, "Alright, I'll put you to sleep."

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:04

And I, I was grateful that he did that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:07

Um, and I woke up and the whole experience happened.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:12

I did not want to see her.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:15

I really did not want to see her.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:17

And I remember the bereavement nurse said to me, she said,

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:21

"You know, we've dressed her up.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:23

She looks beautiful.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:25

She looks lovely.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:26

Are you sure you don't wanna see her?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:28

I said, "Oh, can I see a picture?

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:29

What does her hand look like?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:31

I was just asking a question, but I did not want to see her because

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:34

when I got the diagnosis, I had gone on the internet and I had looked at

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:41

children who had Edwardian syndrome.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:45

And this is the first time I'm talking about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:48

I did not want to remember my daughter with any physical abnormalities.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:55

I did not want to do that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:25:57

Because I saw a lot of pictures and a lot of families and I did not want to do that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:02

And I just said, "No."

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:03

I did not want to see her.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:05

And she said, "Okay".

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:10

And then she let it go.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:11

And I had a discussion with my husband and he said, "You know,

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:16

if you don't , is this something that you'll be able to live with?"

VIKKI: 00:26:20

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:22

And I thought about it and I said, "Okay then ,bring her in."

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:26

So they dressed her up, brought her in.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:28

We had a chaplain there.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:30

He sat with us and he prayed, did a blessing.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:34

I looked at her, said my goodbyes and I...

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:41

and they took her away.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:44

And recently I was on Instagram and there's a page where there's a, a

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:50

lady who has a page dedicated to children who had Edwardian Syndrome,

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:56

who are still leaving and still alive.

KEJI MOSES: 00:26:59

And I came across that page and I followed her and I saw the

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:04

children and I saw the families having to look after the children.

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:08

And it triggered me.

VIKKI: 00:27:10

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:11

It triggered me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:13

And I just, I thought, okay, I don't wanna see the notification

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:18

of this feed coming up my, my page.

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:21

Um, but then I thought, what was it that triggered me?

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:26

What was it that triggered me?

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:28

And I think it, it brought me back to the experience of me

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:32

not wanting to see my daughter.

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:34

You know, back there.

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:36

And I knew that that was something I needed to kind of work on something that

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:41

I needed to, to um, really deal with.

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:47

Um, and so yeah, it's been that experience and I just couldn't, I can't put it into

KEJI MOSES: 00:27:58

words, you know, I went into a Facebook group with women who had had five losses

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:08

over and over again, and they would talk about their experience and I just even

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:13

couldn't stay in those groups because it was just a little bit too much.

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:18

But I can't imagine what families go through on a daily basis.

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:25

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:28:26

How long ago was this, when you lost Mayah?

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:33

Um, I lost Mayah in 2018- September the 24th, 2018.

VIKKI: 00:28:40

So it's still, you know, relatively recent.

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:44

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:45

Relatively recent.

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:48

And I think a lot of people ask me questions like, "That's very

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:52

recent" and " That's very- you know- very quick to have a charity.

KEJI MOSES: 00:28:58

Now what was the Why"?

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:02

And my 'why' is this- it's that I wanted to move away from the

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:12

whole situation of pregnancy loss.

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:14

I took a career break.

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:16

I didn't want to have nothing to do with it, but I, you know, I had a woman

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:21

call me from work out of the blue.

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:23

I don't really talk to her that much, but she called me up.

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:26

She said, "Oh, I heard what happened to you."

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:28

But she said, the same happened to her.

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:31

And she was, she, she was upset about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:35

And I said, you know, if you wanna talk about it, you can speak to me about it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:38

And I was going into different groups and listening to what women

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:44

were saying and the experiences, and I said, "You know what?

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:48

I can actually be part of a solution to some of the issues

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:52

that these women went through.

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:54

And so how can I do that?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:29:57

So I applied to start this charity and the application went through

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:04

with the charity commissions.

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:06

"Oh great, what do I do now?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:08

You know, and it's taking me a whole year to be really trying to understand

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:14

what direction I want to take Mayah's Legacy towards, what's the direction?

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:21

And so we've come and we've understood that we want to be able to spread

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:27

the word, to raise awareness.

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:28

That's why I'm here on the podcast to talk about it, to raise awareness,

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:33

to give people the courage and the confidence to speak out.

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:38

You know, when you look at the Ockenden Report, it's like very clear that

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:44

these women were not listened to, the families were not listened to.

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:48

And so we want to equip families to be able to speak out.

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:52

And then we want to be able to take action and support organisations that are already

KEJI MOSES: 00:30:59

doing this, like Sands, like Tommy's, like many other organisations that have

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:04

been in this space for over 40 years.

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:06

We want to be able to support their campaign to be able to do the

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:10

work together, because ultimately it's not about me as Keji.

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:16

It's not about me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:17

It's about the lives that are going to be affected positively

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:23

out of this whole thing.

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:25

And you know what?

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:26

If it means that Mayah's Legacy is only for 10 years and it's done what

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:30

it needs to do, then that's fine.

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:33

You know?

KEJI MOSES: 00:31:36

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:31:37

Wow - I'm just so blown away by your story and how quickly

VIKKI: 00:31:43

you've moved into channeling your grief in a very, very positive way.

VIKKI: 00:31:50

Do you think in a way it's also helping you process what happened?

VIKKI: 00:31:55

Are you finding the process cathartic, having this, this focus?

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:01

Yeah, I think the process is quite therapeutic for me as well.

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:05

It's actually helping my healing process and my healing.

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:10

I saw a quote on Brene Brown's Instagram page the other day, and it's by Susan Cain

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:18

and she says, "Whatever pain you can't get rid of, make it your creative offering."

VIKKI: 00:32:26

Wow.

VIKKI: 00:32:26

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:32:27

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:27

Make your creative offering, and that's what I'm doing.

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:31

That pain or that experience of losing Mayah will never leave me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:38

It's going to be there until I'm gone.

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:41

Right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:42

But I'm going to make it my creative offering in any way

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:46

that I can to support families.

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:50

Those I speak to, those I meet every single day that are going

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:54

through those experiences as well.

KEJI MOSES: 00:32:57

And I just want to let people know that it's not the end.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:04

You know, for me when it happened, it was like, "This is it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:07

Take me out.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:09

I don't want to see another day."

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:11

And like I said to my husband, I said I was like at the edge of a cliff

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:16

and I was about to just jump off.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:19

And that would've been it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:21

And what kept me from not jumping off was my children.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:27

You know that I looked at them and I said, "they need me", right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:33

It was the fact that I felt that I had a purpose that gave me the hope.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:41

And also importantly, I had a good support system around me.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:46

You know, my husband was there, my mum, a very strong, um, fixture in my life.

KEJI MOSES: 00:33:54

She's always been there, and I had friends that supported me in the experience.

KEJI MOSES: 00:34:00

So it kinda helped me to continue.

KEJI MOSES: 00:34:04

And I have, I'm a person of faith, you know, I prayed about my experience.

KEJI MOSES: 00:34:13

I felt like I surrendered to the purpose in which I have been called

KEJI MOSES: 00:34:18

to journey on, and I prayed for the wisdom to be able to do the right thing.

KEJI MOSES: 00:34:27

And here I am.

VIKKI: 00:34:30

And you know, so grateful that, that you are.

VIKKI: 00:34:34

Do you think, apart from your family and your friends, did you have much support

VIKKI: 00:34:42

from the health service in terms of like bereavement, counselling, or follow ups?

KEJI MOSES: 00:34:51

No not really.

KEJI MOSES: 00:34:52

And that was something that I was quite surprised about because I was

KEJI MOSES: 00:34:58

given a box and then in the box you have all this information and there's

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:02

the details of Sands in there as well.

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:05

So you can call them if you wanted to.

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:08

And I think they gave me some details about local counselling, um,

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:12

organisations around that I can call.

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:17

But I just felt there was a disconnect, it was now we're,

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:23

we're now back in the community.

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:25

Good luck if you called them.

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:29

Nobody's there to find out whether you did or not, there was no

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:33

follow up or anything like that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:35

And I think that that is quite very, you can when you're vulnerable, right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:41

At that point.

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:42

And it was good that I had people checking up on me, but if I didn't have anyone

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:46

checking up on me, I can have easily gone into like a deep, deep state of

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:53

being and it could, it could go anyways.

KEJI MOSES: 00:35:56

And I think they need to, the health sector need to have something in between.

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:01

And even I said it, you know, um, Sands were doing, um, Uh, like an

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:09

interview and just asking, black and Asian, uh, minority women

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:14

who'd experienced pregnancy loss.

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:16

And they wanted to know what can be implemented and incorporated in

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:21

training for health professionals.

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:24

And I said they need to . Have on ground counsellors.

VIKKI: 00:36:27

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:36:28

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:29

In the hospital- not nurses, professional counsellors.

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:35

Right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:36

Standby.

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:36

And they could do it because you have people that will want to volunteer.

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:40

Some people will say, "You know what, I will volunteer three hours

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:43

a week to come into hospital as a counsellor to support anyone that's

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:49

gone through this experience."

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:51

And I think we need to really look into that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:36:54

And also they shouldn't put women in wards where other women are having kids.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:00

I was in the middle, there was a lady, just had a baby, I could hear the

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:04

baby crying at one end of the room.

VIKKI: 00:37:07

Oh my goodness.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:08

Because they had a room that you could go into.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:10

If that room is not vacant, you have to stay on the ward.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:14

And so when your family is gone and your left in the middle of

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:17

the night, I couldn't sleep.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:19

I'd just sit down like this crying in tears.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:23

But I can hear someone just giving birth and I think that

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:27

that needs to be looked at also.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:30

But I definitely believe that there needs to be a link between when that

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:36

has happened and when you go home.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:40

There has to be that follow up.

KEJI MOSES: 00:37:42

I think that will help a lot of people.

VIKKI: 00:37:44

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:37:45

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:37:46

And it is very, very tough when health and medical services are so stretched,

VIKKI: 00:37:53

and as you're saying, if we can sort of get together like volunteers,

VIKKI: 00:37:58

then it's not an economic burden.

VIKKI: 00:38:01

And it's very difficult when obviously hospital beds are at a premium and I,

VIKKI: 00:38:05

you know, I don't wanna bash the N.H.S.

VIKKI: 00:38:07

because they do an incredible job, but I can see on a practical level

VIKKI: 00:38:13

that they might need to return women who have literally just

VIKKI: 00:38:16

suffered the loss of their baby.

VIKKI: 00:38:19

But the insensitivity of putting them back on the ward- I mean, I remember

VIKKI: 00:38:24

my mum talking about somebody who'd lost their baby being put back in the ward

VIKKI: 00:38:28

with them, and she just thought that it was the most, the cruelest thing ever.

VIKKI: 00:38:34

And, you know, it isn't just the impact on the mum, as you

VIKKI: 00:38:39

say, it's the whole family.

VIKKI: 00:38:42

If you want to talk about the economic burden on society going forward,

VIKKI: 00:38:47

you know, I mean, the humanitarian cost is absolutely huge, but if the

VIKKI: 00:38:53

people that make policy change see it from an economic perspective, you

VIKKI: 00:38:59

know, there's gonna be ramifications for families that are affected like

VIKKI: 00:39:03

this and may suffer very badly with perinatal mental health, because of

VIKKI: 00:39:07

the loss and the lack of support.

VIKKI: 00:39:10

So I think everything you are suggesting, which is like early support and meaningful

VIKKI: 00:39:15

support is really incredibly important.

VIKKI: 00:39:21

One thing, I know when we talked initially as well, you were talking

VIKKI: 00:39:24

about in your culture there's a feeling of, "Well, you're still young, you

VIKKI: 00:39:30

can have other children, move on."

VIKKI: 00:39:33

Is that something that you think is changing now or is it still seen

VIKKI: 00:39:38

in Nigerian culture that you can sort of bounce back and carry on?

KEJI MOSES: 00:39:44

Yeah, I think it 's multifaceted.

KEJI MOSES: 00:39:48

There's many factors that contribute to that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:39:51

It's generational.

KEJI MOSES: 00:39:53

"You should be strong and you are a strong woman.

KEJI MOSES: 00:39:56

You can still have other children".

KEJI MOSES: 00:39:58

This is not something we talk about, you know.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:02

"Just deal with it, move on."

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:06

And that moving on is more to do with their own comfortability rather than you.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:12

It's more like, "I don't want to deal with this anymore.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:14

Let's just, let's, let's not talk about this anymore.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:18

The child is gone, you know, what else can you do?

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:21

You can't bring the child back."

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:23

And what that does is it creates a cultural secrecy.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:28

So people would not openly talk about what they're going through

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:32

in terms of their mental health.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:34

So they would appear, okay, they will smile, show up in spaces that

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:41

they're fine, but they're not fine.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:43

It is happening gradually, slowly, but it's very slow.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:48

We're not creating spaces for people to be able to speak about these things,

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:53

even in the religious organisations.

KEJI MOSES: 00:40:56

And you know, I'm a person of faith and this is not about bashing

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:00

religious organisations because they do tremendous work within the community.

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:04

It's about them understanding that there are women that will go through these

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:10

experiences and we need to start creating safe spaces for them to have the support,

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:17

particularly if they spend most of their time within the organisation -you know,

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:22

they go to church or they go to the mosque or whatever the situation may be.

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:26

And so if we are able to create those spaces for them, that would

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:30

really begin to help and take away the element of shame.

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:35

There's nothing to be afraid of.

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:37

You haven't done anything wrong, it's just the way things had happened.

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:43

And so there's a lot of conversation to be had.

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:47

There's a lot of generational ideology that's been passed on along

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:53

the line that people need to begin to change the narrative, I would say.

KEJI MOSES: 00:41:59

And I hope I am able to be part of that conversation to begin to change

KEJI MOSES: 00:42:03

the narrative, so that women can stand in their truth and speak their

KEJI MOSES: 00:42:09

truth and not be afraid of being judged for speaking their truth.

VIKKI: 00:42:14

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:42:15

And I think, you know, you can absolutely be a strong woman, but still

VIKKI: 00:42:21

grieve for the loss of your child.

VIKKI: 00:42:23

You know, it's not a reflection on strength.

VIKKI: 00:42:26

It's something that you need to process.

VIKKI: 00:42:28

It's an incredibly traumatic event.

VIKKI: 00:42:31

How did your children react?

VIKKI: 00:42:34

Because I know you were saying that, that one of your children doesn't

VIKKI: 00:42:38

like to talk about it anymore.

VIKKI: 00:42:40

Do you still like to talk about Mayah?

VIKKI: 00:42:43

Because you know, she was such a huge part of your life?

KEJI MOSES: 00:42:50

I talk about Mayah through Mayah's Legacy.

VIKKI: 00:42:53

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:42:54

I don't talk about Mayah through the actual experience.

KEJI MOSES: 00:42:58

I don't talk Mayah through the pain that I experienced.

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:04

So they know about Mayah's Legacy.

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:07

They've obviously seen me doing something or the other, like

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:10

my interview this morning!

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:11

He is like, "Oh, you're having an interview."

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:12

Like my youngest one, he is seven.

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:15

And he'll say, "Oh, Mayah mummy- remember when you were in hospital and

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:17

daddy was crying and you were crying?

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:21

Why were you crying again?

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:23

Is it because of Mayah, where is she?

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:25

She's in a box."

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:27

You know?

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:28

Those kind of questions still come up, because obviously we had to

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:31

plan the funeral and, you know, we did the whole thing and took

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:35

her to, you know, lay her down.

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:38

And they were there with just myself, my husband, and my two boys.

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:42

And so I got pictures and things of that to kind of have that memory.

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:47

But I speak about her through Maya's legacy.

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:51

Um, is that conscious?

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:55

I'm not sure.

KEJI MOSES: 00:43:57

I think it's more about where I'm at, um, and where I'm at is Mayah's Legacy

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:07

is the legacy that Mayah's leaving.

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:10

And I'm gonna talk about that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:12

There are days though, my own where I feel sad.

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:22

I feel that emotions come up again.

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:25

I feel a sense of grief strong still there that I find myself sometimes

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:35

in the house when I'm on my own.

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:37

I do have the, that moment of crying and having that emotional moment.

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:43

Um, but in speaking to them, I speak through Mayah's Legacy.

KEJI MOSES: 00:44:49

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:44:49

It's like focusing on on the future and looking forward

VIKKI: 00:44:53

and about making positive change.

VIKKI: 00:44:56

With regards to sort of how people responded to you, because I think one

VIKKI: 00:45:02

thing that's very common is people don't know what to say or don't know what to

VIKKI: 00:45:08

do - because obviously whatever they do or whatever they say is not going to

VIKKI: 00:45:13

be helpful when you've lost a child.

VIKKI: 00:45:17

But have you got any advice for if somebody has a friend who's going

VIKKI: 00:45:22

through a similar thing or a loved one, what is helpful, what is not helpful

VIKKI: 00:45:27

and what could be potentially damaging?

VIKKI: 00:45:29

Is there anything you could offer?

KEJI MOSES: 00:45:33

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:45:35

Many things I'll share my own experience.

KEJI MOSES: 00:45:38

Majority of the time I wanted to be left alone.

KEJI MOSES: 00:45:44

I did not want people phoning me up every single minute

KEJI MOSES: 00:45:47

and say, "How are you today?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:45:48

Then the next day- I just didn't want that and my friends were

KEJI MOSES: 00:45:52

sensitive enough to understand that and so there was a balance.

KEJI MOSES: 00:45:56

And so for me, my advice is you've got to understand the

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:02

person in front of you, right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:05

And kind of navigate how you deal with them based on who they are.

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:12

And so if you find that your friend is the sort of person that's talking

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:19

about it, they want to talk about it all the time, or your family member, this

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:23

person, every single thing they said is about this experience and you are

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:27

finding that it's overwhelming for you.

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:32

Don't disconnect yourself from them, because that's another sense of loss,

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:36

that's another sense of abandonment.

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:38

What I would offer you to do is just be honest instead.

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:43

"You know what, I want to be able to support you, but I don't think I

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:48

can support you in the way in which you need the support right now.

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:53

What I want to do with you is work together so we can find

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:57

the right support for you."

KEJI MOSES: 00:46:59

So you look for maybe a counsellor or whatever.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:03

You know, you work something out so that they can still have the support and they

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:06

don't have that sense of abandonment.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:09

What I find is when people feel like you're talking too much about it,

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:12

they'll remove themselves and all of a sudden you call them and they're

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:15

not picking up their phone anymore, and that's another loss, isn't it?

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:18

That's another sense of abandonment.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:19

So I will offer that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:21

I will also offer the fact that sometimes when they're

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:24

silent in the room, it's okay.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:28

You don't need to fill in every silence with another conversation.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:33

Silent for me was therapy.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:36

You know, my friends will come down, they'll bring food, and

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:39

we can all just sit down, not really say much, the T.V.'s on.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:44

And then we just sit down like that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:46

And I was okay with that.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:48

And so it's, it's really about knowing the person and just being

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:54

sensitive to what is going on.

KEJI MOSES: 00:47:57

And maybe you can ask them, say, what do you need from me right now?

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:02

What do you need me to do for you right now?

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:04

If you want me to help you with domestic stuff and that's all you

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:09

need, that's fine and I'm able to do that, then I can offer that to you.

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:13

Or if you just want me to just kind of check up on you once a day in the morning

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:19

and that's all you need, that's fine.

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:21

But it's about them.

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:23

But in that, you have to be conscious of how you are

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:26

responding to what is going on?

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:28

Be aware of it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:29

Think self-awareness is important.

KEJI MOSES: 00:48:31

So those are the things that I could offer.

VIKKI: 00:48:34

I think that's incredibly helpful.

VIKKI: 00:48:36

So the big takeout there is being sensitive and sort of, yeah, asking.

VIKKI: 00:48:41

Asking what they need and actively listening.

VIKKI: 00:48:45

And as you say, not being there to sort of throw advice at them or constantly

VIKKI: 00:48:50

fill the space, but just letting them be, but know that they're not alone.

VIKKI: 00:48:56

I think so many people feel awkward and don't know whether

VIKKI: 00:48:59

to acknowledge the loss and say, "I'm so sorry you lost your baby."

VIKKI: 00:49:03

Or whether not to talk about it.

VIKKI: 00:49:05

I guess it depends on the individual as to whether they want

VIKKI: 00:49:10

to openly talk about it or not.

VIKKI: 00:49:13

Another thing that I know you are very, keen on talking

VIKKI: 00:49:16

about is the need for advocacy.

VIKKI: 00:49:19

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

KEJI MOSES: 00:49:22

Yeah, the need for advocacy, the need to speak up.

KEJI MOSES: 00:49:25

I can identify every single moment that I should have spoken up and I didn't.

KEJI MOSES: 00:49:34

Because I didn't feel that my voice mattered at the moment.

KEJI MOSES: 00:49:40

I didn't understand, like, for instance, when I got the diagnosis

KEJI MOSES: 00:49:43

of my daughter, when I tested positive for it, I was at home.

KEJI MOSES: 00:49:47

I was lying down in bed and I got a phone call from the hospital, and the

KEJI MOSES: 00:49:51

nurse said, "Oh, the result has come through and you tested positive."

KEJI MOSES: 00:49:58

I'm like, "Positive for what?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:00

"T 18."

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:01

I was like, "Okay."

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:02

"And we are gonna book an appointment for you to see a consultant."

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:05

I put down the phone and Google was my friend.

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:09

I went on Google to begin to find out what this was.

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:14

And you know, when you go online, you can see different things and it could

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:18

be positive, it can be negative.

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:20

And my anxiety level was already a hundred before I even had the appointment.

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:24

But at that point I think I could have said, okay, can you

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:28

explain to me what this is?

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:32

What does it mean?

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:33

Yeah, I wanna have a proper conversation about this, Um, before I go into

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:37

my next appointment, so I know what the reasons why I'm going into it."

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:41

I just took that and I left it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:43

I remember when I was in the hospital, I had the C-section.

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:46

I couldn't walk, my feet were swollen.

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:49

I was laying down and I had bloody bedsheets and I said to, the

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:54

nurse- it was late in the night- I said, "Please, can you help me?

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:57

Can you change me?

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:58

Because I can't get up."

KEJI MOSES: 00:50:59

And she said, "Oh, I'll do it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:00

I'll do it, I'll do it, do it."

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:01

She didn't do it all throughout the night, and she only came to change it until

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:06

the morning shift was about to come in.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:08

And that's what she did.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:09

I could have kind of said, no, can I speak to somebody now please?

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:13

Can I speak to the matron or whatever?

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:15

Who's the Registrar on duty?

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:17

I want to talk to someone.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:19

So for me, I think that, you know, there's a level of "just take it as it

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:24

is, they know what they're talking about."

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:27

You don't.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:28

So yes, you must listen, but at the same time, your voice

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:31

matters in the conversation.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:34

And you have to be able to have the skills to be able to speak up

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:37

and say what you don't understand.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:40

Ask them for clarification.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:42

And if you can't do it yourself, get somebody there who can support you.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:46

So you are very clear and you can make an informed decision, you know?

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:51

Based on the information that is right in front of you.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:54

So advocacy is very important.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:55

Self-advocacy is very important.

KEJI MOSES: 00:51:57

And more important as well is advocacy for people that cannot speak for themselves.

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:03

You know, advocacy for, you know, in terms of policy, lobbying your

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:09

M.P.s to make sure that they're supporting the right policies.

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:12

And that's why Sands and Tommy's and those organisations, I really support

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:17

and I'm grateful for them because they are pushing, they're pushing, they're

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:21

pushing the right agenda forwards, so that we can begin to look at these

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:26

conversations and changing policies that would affect women, that would

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:31

affect families in a positive way.

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:33

So yeah, for me, advocacy is important.

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:35

And that's the direction I wanted to speak up.

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:38

Speak out, your voice matters.

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:41

Continue to speak.

KEJI MOSES: 00:52:43

And if you're not being listened to, find who will listen to you.

VIKKI: 00:52:46

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:52:47

My goodness, this resonates so much.

VIKKI: 00:52:49

Just on any experience of motherhood, I think, and especially around the

VIKKI: 00:52:54

birthing process is having a voice.

VIKKI: 00:52:58

It really does matter.

VIKKI: 00:53:00

And if you are not able to speak up for yourself because you know when

VIKKI: 00:53:03

you're giving birth, you are at your most vulnerable anyway, and it

VIKKI: 00:53:07

is so easy to feel well, you know, they know what they're doing and I

VIKKI: 00:53:12

don't, so I'm gonna just go with it.

VIKKI: 00:53:14

But you can feel like a passenger in your own birthing.

VIKKI: 00:53:18

And so I think everything that you've said is, is so important.

VIKKI: 00:53:24

And also that thing about, you know, Google is not your friend when it

VIKKI: 00:53:27

comes to anything health related.

VIKKI: 00:53:30

Because I know when I was a new mum, just Googling anything, you

VIKKI: 00:53:34

know, even just about breastfeeding, it's terrifying - you're damned

VIKKI: 00:53:38

if you do, damned if you don't.

VIKKI: 00:53:39

Everything leads to, the worst possible things.

VIKKI: 00:53:42

If you are looking at that at four o'clock in the morning, sleep deprived,

VIKKI: 00:53:47

you know, it's really terrifying.

VIKKI: 00:53:49

So yeah, it's really important not to rely on the internet.

VIKKI: 00:53:53

Because it can be really scary, especially on forums.

VIKKI: 00:53:57

Forums are the worst!

VIKKI: 00:53:59

And, you know, don't get me wrong, some forums can be very, um, comforting,

VIKKI: 00:54:03

but a lot can be very judgmental.

VIKKI: 00:54:05

Um, and I think, yeah, it's so important to feel your voice is heard.

VIKKI: 00:54:11

I've spoken to incredible, women like Sandra Igwe and Chrissy Brown

VIKKI: 00:54:15

of Motivational Mums and talking to them about their experience as black

VIKKI: 00:54:20

women, and how if you do advocate for yourself you are often then

VIKKI: 00:54:26

seen as "the aggressive black mum".

VIKKI: 00:54:28

Or that sort of having any sort of assertiveness or confidence

KEJI MOSES: 00:54:33

Hmm,

VIKKI: 00:54:34

is you are then met with you know, let's face it, racist stereotypes.

KEJI MOSES: 00:54:39

Yes, yes, because I think, I think everyone

KEJI MOSES: 00:54:46

must deal with their own bias.

KEJI MOSES: 00:54:48

We have in all professions.

KEJI MOSES: 00:54:52

I feel like sometimes there's what it takes to be a human being, right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:00

Is now separated when you are now a black person.

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:04

It's like, "We have to tick the box and then accept that you are

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:09

human and we have to tick the box and accept that you have feelings.

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:14

Until we do that, what you are saying, it's not important.

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:18

Do you actually feel pain?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:21

Remember they used to test, you know, medical, um, I can't remember what it is.

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:26

I don't wanna quote it, but I know that black women were

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:29

used in the medical field.

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:32

They were operated on without no anaesthetic, back in the day.

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:37

Yes!

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:37

And that's because there was a notion and there was an idea that we don't feel pain.

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:44

Right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:44

So when you think about generations of thinking along those lines,

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:49

when it comes to healthcare, it's more like "You can handle it.

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:53

What are you talking about?"

KEJI MOSES: 00:55:55

and that's why advocacy is important, because we have to re-educate people.

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:00

We have to re-educate people, and people have to begin to understand that just

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:07

because I'm black, I'm not the same as the next black woman right next to me, right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:13

My pain threshold is different from hers, right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:18

"I'm human, right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:19

Listen to me."

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:21

And so I believe, speak your mind respectfully, right?

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:26

And sometimes you've gotta shout

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:29

Sometimes you gotta say, then if you're not being listened to, sometimes you, you

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:33

do have to shout the top of your voice.

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:35

Not in to be violent or anything like that, but you've got to show

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:40

that "You need to listen to me."

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:43

Or we will have situations where, you know, we're excluded from, you

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:49

know, researches that's been done.

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:50

We are excluded from things that are important that could actually

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:55

benefit the community of women.

KEJI MOSES: 00:56:57

We'll be excluded from that if we don't begin to speak up about

KEJI MOSES: 00:57:01

these things and show up in rooms.

KEJI MOSES: 00:57:03

And that's what I want to do.

KEJI MOSES: 00:57:04

I want to show up in rooms where this conversation is being had and

KEJI MOSES: 00:57:08

bring a perspective as a woman, as a mum and as a black woman.

KEJI MOSES: 00:57:13

And so we begin to kind of change the narratives.

VIKKI: 00:57:17

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:57:17

Oh My God.

VIKKI: 00:57:18

But, but it's so dehumanising.

VIKKI: 00:57:21

It's institutional, you know, it's been happening for such a long time and yeah,

VIKKI: 00:57:28

I mean, I had no idea until I started researching into about the statistics,

VIKKI: 00:57:34

you know, how black women are more likely to, I think it's four times

VIKKI: 00:57:39

more likely to die in childbirth, more likely to suffer from perinatal mental

VIKKI: 00:57:45

health issues, but are least likely to be listened to or offered support.

KEJI MOSES: 00:57:50

Yep.

VIKKI: 00:57:50

And that has to change.

VIKKI: 00:57:51

That has to change.

KEJI MOSES: 00:57:54

It has to change and it will change.

VIKKI: 00:57:56

Well, it certainly will if you have anything to do it,

VIKKI: 00:57:59

you, you are a powerhouse Keji!

VIKKI: 00:58:02

And you're only getting started, you know?

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:04

It will change.

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:05

And what people don't understand about this is it benefits every woman.

VIKKI: 00:58:09

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:58:10

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:11

It benefits everyone.

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:14

If you have a healthy mother who, you know, when I say healthy, I

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:19

mean she is being looked after.

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:21

She's well you know, she's able to function in the way

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:25

that she's meant to function.

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:27

It has an impact on the children.

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:30

It has an impact on community

VIKKI: 00:58:32

Definitely

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:33

and, we need to look at it on a holistic level.

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:37

That it impacts every single thing we're doing.

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:40

And so yes, it will change.

VIKKI: 00:58:45

Amazing!

VIKKI: 00:58:46

What a positive note to finish on!

VIKKI: 00:58:48

So how do people get hold of you if they want to speak to you or if

VIKKI: 00:58:52

they need to access the services that Mayah's Legacy provides?

KEJI MOSES: 00:58:58

So on our website,

VIKKI: 00:59:00

and that is Mayah with an h.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:02

Yeah.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:03

With an H.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:03

Yes.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:04

Maya with an H.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:04

So you can, um, contact me there, we can have a conversation.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:10

If you are interested in self-advocacy, go on our website.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:14

Um, so we will be covering different topics within this training.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:19

So we've been looking at what is self-advocacy, why is it useful?

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:25

Why do I need to self-advocate?

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:28

We look at being assertive.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:29

What does assertiveness mean?

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:31

We look at self-compassion, self-awareness.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:35

So you can go on our website, click on it, it's online via Zoom.

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:42

Intimate conversations about self advocacy and looking at ways that you

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:48

can use it in different areas of your

VIKKI: 00:59:50

Yeah Yeah, not just in motherhood, but yeah, it's life skills, isn't it?

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:55

And one thing I wanted to say, you know, this

KEJI MOSES: 00:59:57

experience has changed me in ways.

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:01

Look, I would not be sitting here with you having this interview

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:04

before the experience because I'm an introvert naturally.

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:08

I like my own little space, you know, just sitting front of

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:10

Netflix and not really doing much.

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:12

But this experience in ways I can't explain has opened me up.

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:18

You know, it's given me a new hope and a way of approaching

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:23

life, which is fulfilling.

VIKKI: 01:00:25

Yeah.

VIKKI: 01:00:25

It's given you a voice.

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:27

It's given me a voice.

VIKKI: 01:00:29

And you are using it so wisely.

VIKKI: 01:00:31

So, uh, thank you so much, what a brilliant way to end!

VIKKI: 01:00:34

Keji, you've been such a fabulous guest and I've been practically crying

VIKKI: 01:00:39

through throughout the entire thing because yeah, I'm so sorry you went

VIKKI: 01:00:43

through that experience, but I, I'm so pleased that you're using it and taking

VIKKI: 01:00:49

it forward in such a positive way.

VIKKI: 01:00:51

So thank you so much for sharing it with us.

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:53

Thank you so much for this platform.

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:55

Thank you so much.

KEJI MOSES: 01:00:56

I really appreciate you.

VIKKI: 01:01:01

if you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe.

VIKKI: 01:01:06

It really does make the difference in helping other people find it,

VIKKI: 01:01:10

and that means helping more parents.