In this week's talk, Amit and Rinat dive deep into the world of ransomware, a type of malicious software that encrypts files or locks systems until a ransom is paid. We explore its various types, learn how ransomware typically infiltrates systems and discover the sophisticated evasion techniques attackers use to bypass antivirus defences. We also discuss essential preventive measures to protect against these evolving threats. Join us for an insightful discussion on ransomware.

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Rinat: Hi everyone.

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Welcome to Tech Talk, a podcast where

Amit and I talk about all things tech.

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We don't just talk about tech.

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We talk about how the tech impacts

our lives and the society overall.

5

Today we want to talk about ransomware.

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We've talked about deep fakes before,

today would be a complimentary

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episode to talk about ransomware

and how it affects everyone.

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And how we should be careful and vigilant

to protect ourselves on the internet.

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Looking forward to learn as

well as talk about ransomware.

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Please start us off

with what is ransomware.

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Amit: Hey, . Thanks.

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Thanks a lot for the

introduction . Ransomware I felt

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was quite an important topic.

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We have read about it in the news.

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We heard about NHS under a ransomware

attack because they were using, old

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Windows XP machines and they had a attack.

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I don't know what happened.

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Did they actually pay the money or not.

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But essentially that's what triggered

this idea that we have talked about

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a lot of things, but there are some

tech or there are some things which

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have a very dangerous consequence

and ransomware is one of them.

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And in essence, ransomware comes

from the word ransom and ransomware

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essentially means that you need to pay

money, in lieu of the information on

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your machine, it could be a laptop,

it could be a computer, it could be a

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mobile device, it could be anything.

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And essentially what happens in ransomware

attack is your phone or your laptop or

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your computer gets locked and you're

not able to access any of your files.

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And in order for you to get

access, you have to pay a ransom.

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Instead of something happening in

the real world, it still happens

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in the real world, but it is got to

do with the data on your machine.

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Rinat: That is actually really interesting

and thank you for that example as well.

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There are many ways of being scammed and

threatened and bullied on the Internet.

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And all the things that we've

been facing in the last century,

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physically in the real world now

has found its digital version on

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the internet and it is inevitable.

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There will always be people who would try

to take advantage of new technologies

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. so in this scenario, the data that you

own, or that is important to for you to

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have access to, you get locked out of it.

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So it gets kidnapped away.

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And the only way you can regain access

to that data or platform is by paying the

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malicious person who locked you out of it.

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I didn't actually even know about

the incident at NHS, but this

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reminds me of, for those of you who

has seen Grey's Anatomy, there was

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an episode where this exact thing

happens that the whole computing

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systems in that hospital all the.

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Doctors and hospital personnel gets

locked out of, and then they demand a

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huge sum of money to get that released.

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it's very interesting and it is

happening in real world as well

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as we are seeing it in the media.

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Amit: Yeah, the interesting part of

ransomware is that it's not there are

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attackers who are trying to target you

specifically but there are there are so

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many people connected to the internet.

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So there is not a group of people

who are sitting there and looking

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at, Oh, this person is vulnerable.

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Let's target them.

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No.

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They send out a piece of software

and they package it in a way that

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you can accidentally download it

or install it on your machine.

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Now the ways to do that

is by a phishing email.

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A phishing email is an attack where

you're trying to impersonate someone.

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So say, Rinat sends me an email, and

it's actually not from Rinat, it's

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from someone else, but they make it

look like it's coming from Rinat.

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Or you can say Google.

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So you get the Google logo, you

type all the words that are normally

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are there in a Google email.

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And then you say, Oh, you have forgotten

your password or your something is

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expiring and you have to pay some

money to get access or download

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this file or click on this link.

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Et cetera, et cetera.

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So this is a phishing email and when

you do something like click a link in

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the email or download an attachment on

that email or go to a website where if

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you go and you enter some information.

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Your information gets leaked

and that's how the ransomware

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gets installed on your machine.

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Now, there are different things.

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We are talking about ransomware.

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We are not talking about viruses.

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We are not talking about other

malicious files because these can

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damage the data, but , it will

not prevent you from accessing it.

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Ransomware prevents everything.

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You, you can't use your keyboard.

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You can't use your mouse.

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You can see that there is a screen a

banner that appears on your computer.

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And then it says in order for you

to view the data, pay this much

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money, normally in cryptocurrency.

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So you pay in Bitcoin because

then the transaction is anonymous.

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So you can't actually figure

out who the money has gone to.

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You just know to this wallet, you have

to transfer the Bitcoin, but that wallet

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could be of a person, a company, a group.

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We don't know.

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And that's how you go for the attack.

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So you have a phishing email.

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The second way is an exploit.

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It's always recommended that we

update our software regularly.

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Now, why?

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Because sometimes there is a

vulnerability in the software

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that gets patched with an update.

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Patching means you fix the problem.

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The problem in your operating system or

the software that you're trying to use.

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In case anyone tries to take advantage

of that vulnerability in the non

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upgraded version of the software

or the operating system, then

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that means you can get exploited.

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So the same thing happened with NHS.

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Windows 10 was out.

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They were still using Windows XP.

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Microsoft has dropped support

for Windows XP a long time back.

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They don't release any security

patches, so if there is a vulnerability

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in XP, someone can exploit that

vulnerability and get access to all

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the information on the computer.

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Now, that was exploited to get

access and lock all the files.

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I don't know if they paid the money,

but this is a type of extortion.

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So you have to be very careful of what

you're trying to click, where you're

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going on the web on the internet.

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And what are you clicking?

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Are you downloading a safe file?

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Because anything can happen.

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It can download a virus on your machine

or it can lock your machine completely.

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Rinat: I hadn't actually thought about

all the different types of malicious

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emails or malicious approaches that

you could, we are facing it all every

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day, but I didn't really think about

the categorization the way you just put

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it . Some of them are trying to harm

your data or corrupt it but ransomware

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is different in a way that it will keep

the data, but it will lock you out of it.

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So you can't use anything.

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And I imagine that even if you reset

your computer or turn it on and

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off, none of these will help at all.

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Just to be clear about

the severity of this kind

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of attack.

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So in our past episodes, we've

talked about various ways, how you

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should be careful on the internet.

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We've talked about deep fake, we talked

about scamming and phishing earlier

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as well on, on dedicated episodes.

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So let's just put ransomware in its place

among all of these different things.

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Ransomware is a piece of

software, which you don't want

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it in your Computing IT systems.

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Just like virus, you don't want a

virus to be , in your IT system.

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And the way ransomware would try and

get access to your IT system is similar.

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A lot of the times it is social

engineering, trying to find a

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way that you unintentionally

have it downloaded or installed.

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It's very rare that they can actually,

hack into a secure system unless you

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provided a way for them to do that.

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So this is why it's so important to be

aware of all the different ways they are

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trying to get access to your IT system.

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And now once they get access, there

are , different kind of things that

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this malicious group would want to do.

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One is to trick you to send money

over to them, which is a scam and

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phishing as we talked about earlier.

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Maybe say that, there was a

unauthorized purchase with your

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PayPal account and you've got to send

money to this account and whatever.

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So that's scamming and

phishing, et cetera.

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And then there are ways like viruses,

which will actually harm or corrupt

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your data or your IT system, which

is another thing that they will

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threat you in terms of ransomware.

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But yeah, we have access and we will

delete it or, completely destroy

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your data if you don't pay up.

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So that's all of these things

are one way or another related.

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The way ransomware would try

and get access to you to your I.

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T.

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System is the same as,

phishing or scam or whatever.

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How a virus gets access.

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So that's the part we need to

be really careful and vigilant.

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And in order to protect yourself,

your assets and your data, which

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are all very valuable nowadays.

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even if you are a non techie

person, you should have this kind

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of understanding just so you can

protect your assets and property.

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And, data is a valuable property nowadays

anyway as well as your actual physical

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asset like bank account and money and

all the other finance and everything.

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Everything is online now.

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So it's very important even for non

techie folks out there, especially

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a majority of our listeners to be

Aware of all the things that can

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happen and how to protect yourself

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from it,

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Amit: When we talk about ransomware we

think, okay, why am I getting targeted?

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But as I mentioned earlier,

you are not getting targeted.

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You just got scammed or you clicked

on some link or you downloaded

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an attachment or you went to

a website that was malicious.

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And the moment you went, you

opened something and it downloaded

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something on your computer.

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So that's how it happens.

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So you're not targeted.

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You just fell a victim.

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Let's look at what actually

happens in a ransomware thing.

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So something gets delivered

onto your machine.

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And So you download it, you

install, it, gets installed

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automatically, et cetera, et cetera.

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So something gets installed

on your machine.

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Once it gets installed, it

starts doing various things.

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So how does the ransomware lock you out?

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One way is it encrypts all the files

on your machine, and encryption

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means that you're putting it an

in an envelope and you're locking

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it with a code or with a key.

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And if you don't have the key,

you cannot open the envelope.

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And that is in a sense, encryption.

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And it basically means

your files are there.

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You can see it, but you can't open it.

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So that's one way in, in which ransomware,

blocks you access to your files.

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The other way is putting a lock screen.

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It locks you out of the system.

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So whenever you start a machine, it

asks you for your username and password.

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Same thing with your smart devices.

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So it asks for a

fingerprint or a pin code.

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That locks you out.

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So you even cannot get in.

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So forget about seeing the file.

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You can't even get in to see the file.

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Okay, so that's one way.

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The other way is, it

doesn't allow you to boot.

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So when you switch on the power button, It

doesn't load the operating system because

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that's the first thing that happens.

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The BIOS starts and it looks at the

master boot record and it looks where

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the operating system is installed.

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We've spoken about BIOS as well.

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So it does all the check and then it tries

to load or start the operating system.

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And in some ransomwares,

it prevents this as well.

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So you can't even now start your machine.

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You can switch it on, but nothing

will load and it'll just show

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a screen pay this much money.

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Okay.

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Now there are different

techniques as well.

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So in, in one technique, you pay the

money and you get a key like a code.

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And you type in the code and

then it unlocks everything.

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It decrypts all the files.

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It unlocks your system.

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It lets you start your operating system.

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So that's one way.

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The other way is it will prevent

access by showing you a countdown.

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So it's 10 days.

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If you don't pay the money in 10

days time, all the data on your

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computer will be lost forever.

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So these are different

types of ransomware attacks.

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And we have to be very cautious and

aware that this can happen to us.

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Okay.

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Normally the things that we read in

the media are about big companies.

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So a lot of big companies, they get

ransomware attacks and then they

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have to pay money because they have

confidential information which they

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don't want to leak because the other

part of ransomware is that they will

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encrypt your file, they'll download

all the file to their machine and then

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they will say, we will expose all your

secrets if you don't pay us the money.

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So this is a kind of extortion and

this is what a ransomware is all about.

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It's trying to extort money from you.

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It could be 0.

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015 Bitcoin BTC.

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That's it.

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But it's enough to it's enough for a

lot of people because they have millions

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of computers running these ransomwares.

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So yeah

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Rinat: They could be , doing

this to so many people.

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So even a small amount although not small

amount for the victim, 1, 000 or pounds,

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and if they found a hundred victims,

that's a hundred thousand dollars or

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pounds, whatever it's quite a huge sum.

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And.

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Again this is what really boggles

me that, to, if you agree to pay

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the ransom, there is no guarantee

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ever that they will give you

the decryption key, or they will

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not delete your files anyway.

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Or even, a likely scenario is that

they've just managed to block you out.

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They haven't even got the

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power to give you access

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back.

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They just need to

convince you to send money.

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And after that, they don't have

any care in the world to whether

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or not you get access to that

data, however important it is.

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The people who can lock out

hospitals or NHS out of patient data.

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And there might be critical patients

who might need that information, a

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surgeon might need to operate in minutes.

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And if they're okay to do that, then they

don't care about, whether the doctors

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get those information ever, . We're

not professional, disaster advisors.

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So , none of those are

advice in a professional way.

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But what I would do is that it's never

worth uh, paying the ransom, because

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first of all, there is no guarantee you'll

get whatever it was taken from you data,

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whether it's locked out of your computer,

whether it's the hardware, if it's an

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expensive gaming laptop or whatever you're

worried about, whether you're going to

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get that back, or whether you're going

to get the data back, or whether or not

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they're going to expose your secrets.

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There is no guarantee of any of that going

your way, especially once you've paid,

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they don't have a lot of information on

you, but they do know this for sure that

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you are the kind of person who will pay.

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So you're like the prime target

to extort you even further because

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you've already taken their bait.

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So I would never actually pay the ransom

because there is absolutely nothing

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that to be gained from this scenario.

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And actually this is from

personal experience as well.

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When I was a, teenager, when the

internet was first about, I've

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had accounts open with very easy

passwords all numbers, et cetera.

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And that somehow did get leaked.

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And have I been pwned, has

those passwords and I can see.

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And then once I received these

Emails after every few months, I've

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been receiving these emails, which

actually have my, that password.

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It's all digits, like very easy, I

didn't use that in 15, 20 years now,

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but I did have that as one of my very

first password when I was teenager

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and internet was new back then.

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So I see that password in the subject

line, all exposed and that kind of does,

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make you skip your heartbeat a little bit.

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And then in the message email message

body, it says that, , we have all

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of your secrets and apparently we

have some of your videos , , because

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I know that, no such thing exists.

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That's why I could be confident because

at the time when I got those emails,

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I was still a teenager even then.

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So I would have been quite

scared if I, because I know that

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no such thing exists anyway.

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So it wasn't possible.

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It didn't really apply to me.

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And even nowadays, and sometimes

I get like transfer this amount of

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Bitcoin to this address, and then

we won't share your secret videos

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or whatever to be honest, even if I

did have any secret videos, share it

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all you want, I don't really care.

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But again this is really, I can see why.

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Anyone, any regular person would be

really scared and they would do anything.

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They could have like really secret

things that they don't want to

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be exposed in any way, and they

actually don't have anything.

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These emails that I've received.

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Then I know that there is nothing.

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So these emails are a lot of the times

they just have that old password which

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has been leaked years ago and they're

just hanging on to that to make you

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believe that there is something and

they're taking a chance and they're

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sending these emails to a million

people and Out of those million people,

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that password is actually correct.

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So if you see your old password

and exposed in an email subject

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line and then say something like

that, you are bound to be scared.

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So this is why I would advise not

ever to give anything because they

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don't probably have anything anyway.

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And even if they do, there is no guarantee

that they won't share it anyway, right?

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They're they are malicious people.

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So they'll probably enjoy doing that

regardless and then the third thing

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what I would say Which is an actual

preventative measure, for an individual

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for a company They have obviously,

cybersecurity advisors, etc but for,

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on a personal level, what I would say,

and this is something I do as well,

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your data is important and valuable.

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It could be like you

have a invention idea.

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You want to patent it and

you've written it all down.

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You've done the drawings and everything.

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And that is in your computer.

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And it is obviously a secret.

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You don't want the world to know about it.

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And there could be many other secret or

valuable assets stored in your computer.

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And what I do is on a periodic

basis is have an offline backup.

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It's not a cloud backup,

not an online backup.

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It's not even attached to

electricity in any way.

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So definitely do this . Set yourself

up every quarter of a year or every

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six months or even yearly if you can't

be bothered with it too frequently.

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But I would say every quarter

or six months is a good time.

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You basically take all of your data

by a really big storage external

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drive, take all of your data, copy

everything and have that external drive

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disconnected from power and separate.

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obviously they can say, still

be extortionate by, saying

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that we'll share your data.

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That's one way that

will still remain open.

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But the other way is that, okay, you're

locked out and you can never get access

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to your data or your, precious memories,

maybe your loved one has passed away and

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you have their photos and videos , and

you can never have access to those.

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So you will never be in that situation.

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If you regularly back

your, all of your data out.

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And I've spent a significant amount

of time in my life, sorting out all my

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data from past, like from the beginning

of digital age and before that, which

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I've scanned . And it is worth it.

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I would still say that I still have that

peace of mind that everything I have.

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From photos, videos, everything is

organized, documents and everything

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is organized and easily backupable.

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I've done that and I would

recommend anyone to do that.

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So that's one area of, holding you

hostage is completely eliminated.

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But then again, obviously you

still have that secret being shared

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problem, which, if you have any idea,

please share with the rest of us.

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Amit: Yeah.

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So you've touched a good points and

I didn't know about your personal

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experience, but , yes we did interview

Troy Hunt, who's the founder, who's the

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creator of have I been pwned website.

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And I, even my data has been

leaked and I have seen some of my

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passwords online published as well.

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The passwords are not

connected to you directly.

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The passwords are just leaked.

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It's like a password file, which has

a lot of passwords and you can maybe

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connect to it because it's your password.

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But if it's a very simple password Amit123

there could be millions of people with.

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And they would have typed one, two, three.

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So it's not related to you.

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It could be millions of people.

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And as you mentioned that the email,

the phishing emails or scam emails

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are sent out to millions of people.

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And even if one person clicks

that's money for them, right?

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And with so much advancements, now it's

very easy to fool people because there

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is so much technology around us and we

don't know how the technology works.

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And That is one of the biggest

reason we are doing this podcast.

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We want to educate people because there

are so many things about technology

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that people don't understand.

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You mentioned about backups.

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You always need to have three backups.

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One is local backup, one is a

cloud backup, and one is offline

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backup, which is not local.

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So local backup is anything on your

machine that you That you can access

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easily cloud backup is anything on the

cloud and offline backup is an offline

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backup, which is not connected, which is

air gapped, which is, which means there is

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no internet connectivity and it is not in

your location because if your house burns

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down tomorrow or if there is a burglary,

you lose that data because a lot of times

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people steal the electronic equipments.

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So if that is exposed somewhere,

or if it's not in a locker, then

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of course you lose that data.

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Of course, you need to

have a password manager.

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So I have a password manager.

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It's offline password manager.

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But I store it on the cloud.

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So whatever is getting stored is

actually password protected.

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So even if it's on a Google

server, it is encrypted.

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So it's not stored on the Google

server as a clear text file.

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It's not like someone will click the

file and they will be able to read it.

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No, you need a master password.

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So that's how I secure myself.

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You touched some of the

important techniques like, okay,

407

be aware, be this, be that.

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And as individuals people

are getting more aware about

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technology but it's the enterprise.

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The challenges are that even with a

robust IT system and antivirus and many

411

other ransomware or virus mitigation

strategies, people still get fooled.

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And as you mentioned previously,

that people are the last

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defense against security and

if they fall, everything falls.

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So that's why Most of the attacks

are focused on people rather than

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on the actual software because it's

easy to fool people than software.

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And one of the ways we can prevent all

these things is by educating ourselves by

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making sure that we are clicking the right

link by verifying the source of the email,

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by looking at whether the website is

HTTP secure or not et cetera, et cetera.

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So there are various ways you,

which with, which you can stay safe.

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Now, coming back to ransomware,

there is a very interesting concept

421

about, Why does ransomware goes

undetected by the antivirus?

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Nowadays, if you have Windows

10 or Windows 11, it gets

423

updated very frequently.

424

Most of the browsers like Google Chrome,

Firefox, they get updated very frequently.

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You get an alert asking you

to upgrade your machine.

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A windows also gives you an alert

asking you to restart your machine

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and get the update installed.

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If you have not done it in a

while it automatically restarts

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after five or six days.

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So there are different strategies with

the companies are taking because there

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are people who don't take these measures.

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Now even after all these things,

ransomware uh, goes undetected and

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what are the different techniques?

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So one of the simple techniques

is that whenever you Create

435

a file on your computer.

436

It's written on the hard disk.

437

But there is RAM, which is random access

memory and it gets cleared all the time.

438

So what if the ransomware

stays on the memory.

439

It's never actually

written on the hard disk.

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So an antivirus that is scanning

the drive C drive or a D drive,

441

it'll never detect the ransomware.

442

So it downloads, starts installing

stuff, locks your system down.

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The memory what happens is the computer

takes the file from your hard disk.

444

It loads it into memory and runs it.

445

The RAM is quite fast, so if something

is loaded on the memory, then it

446

means that it can go undetected.

447

I'm not sure about the latest anti

virus techniques, where are they

448

scanning memory, but I'm guessing

that some of them are scanning.

449

So this is just one of the techniques.

450

The other technique is you go

fileless you don't have any files.

451

You try to be in a way that

there are no files created That's

452

how you evade the Antivirus.

453

The other way is that you Once you get

installed on one machine and then you try

454

to go get installed on another machine,

you don't have the same signature.

455

Rinat: Sorry.

456

Amit: you have the file list,

which is stored in the memory.

457

And then you have a code that changes

from one machine to another machine.

458

So suppose the antivirus detects

ransomware, malicious content.

459

And it stores it in its database and

then it tells now because it's in

460

its database, it updates everywhere,

every copy of it, wherever it is

461

installed, that this is the signature.

462

But the problem is that

ransomware changes.

463

So every time it changes

itself, it modifies itself.

464

So it goes undetected.

465

So that's called polymorphism.

466

And we have seen it in a lot of

movies, in lot of hacker movies where

467

they try to detect or stop the the

ransomware or some malicious content

468

from triggering a nuclear attack.

469

Because it's polymorphic code

because it's changing constantly.

470

The other is that it uses very difficult

or very sophisticated encryption

471

techniques, which even the antivirus

can't detect because it's not up to date.

472

So there are these things,

then the signature.

473

it manipulates the signature.

474

So suppose you are a good

software and you have a signature.

475

Now antivirus looks for

signatures of those files.

476

If it has a good signature, of course

it'll say, okay, it's a safe file.

477

What if you can get the good

signature on your ransomware

478

file or a malicious content?

479

So you can fake a signature and then

480

Rinat: Foraging.

481

Yeah.

482

Amit: so that way you can

evade the antivirus, the

483

antivirus say, Oh, this is fine.

484

I don't have to worry about it.

485

Other is obfuscation.

486

you look like a normal file,

but you're actually not.

487

So the moment you click on the

directory, it's actually an executable.

488

And this has happened

with a lot of viruses.

489

They look like a directory,

but they're actually a file.

490

So you think it's a folder, you double

click and you'll see some files, but

491

no, you've already started the antivirus

and the ransomware has attacked.

492

so these are some of the techniques

in which ransomware evades the anti

493

virus or anti ransomware softwares.

494

So now there are product categories

which are sold as anti ransomware

495

or anti malware things like that.

496

So yeah, so these are different techniques

in which The ransomware evades antivirus.

497

Rinat: Wow.

498

I've learned a lot, be a lot of

these things you just mentioned.

499

I didn't even know at all.

500

And some of those I understand like

polymorphism or some of the other

501

techniques, but one of the things

that really boggled my mind was going

502

file less to be able to do anything,

you need to, put something in the

503

computer and if you're file less, how

504

would you do that?

505

don't

506

Amit: is the thing.

507

The file is stored on your

computer on a hard disk, but it's

508

not executed from the hard disk.

509

It's executed from the memory.

510

And when it's written into the

memory, it can also be erased.

511

Memories are flashable.

512

So it means you can write on

it multiple times and you can

513

write multiple information.

514

So something that's loaded in the

memory doesn't stay in the memory.

515

So when you shut down your computer

and when you switch it on, you have

516

to open the apps all over again.

517

Windows has become better.

518

So it,

519

keeps the state.

520

And it shuts down.

521

So it keeps the state of the memory

and the apps are still there.

522

So now instead, so think like this,

instead of writing it to the hard disk,

523

what if you download a file, it doesn't

get downloaded onto your hard disk.

524

It gets downloaded onto your memory.

525

It's written there.

526

But it's not stored anywhere.

527

So that's how it's fileless.

528

So it's written on the memory.

529

It's not stored on the hard disk.

530

So it means the moment you turn it

off, the information is gone, right?

531

But if you don't turn it off and

your computer is on for a long period

532

of time and accidentally you do

something that triggers it, then it

533

gets installed and you are blocked.

534

And that's the evasion technique.

535

So antivirus can't detect it.

536

But a lot of new antivirus

537

Rinat: Yeah.

538

Amit: they are doing in

memory profiling as well now

539

Rinat: Okay.

540

So many innovative ways.

541

I do wonder if these guys put their

brilliance onto something good, a lot

542

of good things probably would have

happened, to come up with all of these,

543

new innovative ways to hack into someone

else's computer for malicious purposes.

544

Of course, to come up with these kind of

things and that works, that means you're

545

obviously very skilled and talented within

the IT arena and you could easily have

546

a, honest way to live a really good life.

547

And to be honest, the way obviously

as we mentioned earlier today, that,

548

yeah, if you scam a lot of people,

you end up, making a lot of money.

549

But, the amount of effort

they have to put in.

550

And, if you distribute all of your

returns, over that period of years.

551

And, actually how many people

are, taking the bait, etc.

552

It's, it feels like it's really going

to be difficult to make as much.

553

If you're that talented and skillful,

then you should probably be able

554

to make more and with less risk of

going to jail or being punished and

555

also making money ethically with

more peace of mind than doing this.

556

It's just really

557

Amit: think Rinat, you're missing the

point because we have very strict laws.

558

We know that people get imprisoned

if they kill someone or they

559

steal something from someone.

560

Yet it happens.

561

Yet it happens, right?

562

Yeah.

563

Irrespective of what, whatever

stricter laws we have, whatever police

564

we have, these things still happen.

565

People still kill people.

566

People still steal from people.

567

They get imprisoned.

568

We read about them in the news.

569

I'm pretty sure the people

who are doing this are also

570

reading about it in the news.

571

Yet they do this because sometimes

they don't have the fear.

572

Sometimes it just gives them a kick.

573

Okay, I can do this.

574

I can boast it among my peers, right?

575

Sometimes it's a state

576

Rinat: Hmm.

577

Yes.

578

Amit: sometimes you've

created a ransomware 10 years

579

ago, but it's still active.

580

It goes undetected and

it's working, but you have

581

moved on.

582

And a lot of these people, we

say that they are brilliant.

583

They are brilliant but you and

me all can also figure these out.

584

We just don't put the time and

effort to in that direction, right?

585

So some people have a constructive

direction and some people

586

have a destructive direction.

587

And sometimes what happens is they

create something destructively and

588

because they've learned so much,

they actually work for companies such

589

as an antivirus company or an anti

malware company, et cetera, because now

590

they can use their experience for by

creating these malicious software to.

591

Tell how to build your

software to detect them.

592

So this always happens.

593

Hackers become you have the

black hat hackers, the white hat

594

Rinat: ethical hacking.

595

Yes.

596

Amit: So forth.

597

Yeah.

598

Rinat: Yeah, there is a

obviously different perspectives

599

to each of these stories.

600

As we're talking about all of

these ways that ransomware or

601

viruses can attack your computer.

602

And you might think that, okay, these

are more of a a media situation.

603

We see on, a hacker movies

that , this is happening.

604

But in real life there, where would, who

would build a software as sophisticated

605

as, that can do this and that to

that question, I would say that I've

606

actually come across a software.

607

Yeah.

608

And the name of the

software is 888RAT, R A T.

609

And that's a proper hacker software.

610

And if that gets access to your

computer, the person who put it there

611

will have access to your webcam, your

microphone, everything and every file.

612

And you wouldn't even know about it.

613

You will be using your computer as is.

614

And it's aptly named RAT

at the end with 888 RAT.

615

So these kind of software, and

I only known about this one.

616

And I've known about it, but then

I can't, I don't have the courage

617

to even go to that website.

618

Cause who knows, by, I would probably

be thinking that I'm downloading

619

that software, but I'm probably

being ratted or being scammed as I

620

try to download, a lot of the times,

scammers can be scammed anyway.

621

So even to learn about it if I

wanted to really, dissect how it

622

works and everything, I would have

to create an offline machine with

623

a different wifi network than mine.

624

And then only I could probably feel

safe to do something like that.

625

And that's a lot of effort.

626

So this is what I'm saying, like to be

able to do or to want to do something, the

627

amount of effort you have to go through

628

is, is

629

Amit: in my college, I remember

the computer science students,

630

they build the software and it's

basically, um, what do you say?

631

It's basically this

server client software.

632

So basically there is a server that

communicates with the client and the

633

client gets installed on your machine

and the client knows where to send

634

the information and it's basically a

screen sharing screen sharing software.

635

So it shares everything

that's going on your screen.

636

It shares whatever you're sending from

your computer like keyboard or mouse

637

or input devices, and again, camera.

638

So anything that's getting input

it can send it and the client sends

639

it to the server and they built a

very simple software and they said,

640

okay, this is how you install it.

641

And we have this client server.

642

Concepts.

643

So zoom has a server and then multiple

clients, and then you share your screen.

644

Now imagine if everything goes

in a malicious way where you hide

645

everything, you hide the interface,

but everything is still being shared

646

without showing you the interface

that your screen is being shared.

647

Rinat: How dangerous is that!

648

So you might be thinking that, okay,

this is really difficult to achieve

649

and whatever, but it's actually,

something that we have right now.

650

As Amit, you mentioned, you probably

have zoom or some sort of other meeting,

651

remote meeting software installed already,

is this the same kind of software?

652

Without the interface.

653

So they didn't even have to spend time

on programming how it should look like.

654

They just said, okay, it

shouldn't even look like anything.

655

They can just do the background stuff.

656

So it's actually very

much doable and exists.

657

So definitely something to be aware of.

658

But also at the same time, I feel like

we talk a lot about to be cautious from

659

this and cautious from that, which might

put people off technology altogether.

660

We don't want to do that.

661

Definitely embrace the

advancement of technology.

662

Just do it carefully and have

a bit more attention to detail.

663

The more advanced things are going

the more, vigilant you should be in

664

anything, like even before the age of

computing, as you said, someone may

665

forge the digital signature that, say

Microsoft digital signature, you can

666

pretend to be Microsoft by doing that.

667

That was happening before with cheques.

668

People would forge a

669

check with someone else's signature

and take out money from bank.

670

So all of this, and

how would you check it?

671

You need it to be vigilant to

make sure that this is your

672

signature so it's the same thing.

673

You be vigilant in your digital world.

674

Amit: One of the things you mentioned

is that we don't want to off put

675

people from technology by saying

that you have to be cautious.

676

It's like using a knife in the kitchen.

677

People don't stop using a

knife in the kitchen to cut a

678

bread or to cut a vegetable.

679

We know it's sharp.

680

It can cut your fingers, yet we use it.

681

We're just careful.

682

So it's technology, something similar.

683

So our technology is useful, but you

have to be careful because you don't know

684

how it's being you how it can hurt you.

685

Yeah.

686

Yeah.

687

Rinat: Absolutely.

688

That's a good analogy.

689

Yeah, it's been actually quite

an eye-opening conversation.

690

Amit, I've really enjoyed that and

hopefully our audience found it

691

useful too, and will have positive

behavioral changes as we navigate

692

around the internet, thank you

everyone for listening and hopefully

693

we'll see you guys again whenever

we come back with our next episode.

694

Amit: Thanks guys.