Out of the Doghouse: The Truth About Pet Food’s Most-Hated Ingredients

Episode 71 • 26th November 2025 • Barking Mad • BSM Partners

00:24

Jordan Tyler

Have you ever flipped over a pet food package, started reading the label, and then started questioning your reading comprehension abilities? On both human food and pet food labels, ingredients can sometimes look more like a foreign language. From cellulose to salt to artificial flavors, our grocery carts and kibble bags are full of ingredients that may look or sound like they don't belong, but actually serve very real, functional purposes. Today, we're here to debunk some of the most misunderstood ingredients we find in our food by explaining their roles in nutrition, processing, and preservation. We're joined by food scientist Abbey Thiel, who's made it her mission to explain what's really behind some of these ingredients, technologies and processes that keep our food fresh and our pets fed.

01:13

Jordan Tyler

In today's episode, we'll unpack the truth about so called bad ingredients, explore how human trends spill into the pet food arena, and talk about why fads and fear so often drown out the facts. Because whether it's “no salt,” “no gums,” or no clue, understanding the why behind an ingredient is the first step towards smarter choices for both you and your pets. Let's dig in.

01:41

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Welcome to Barking Mad, a podcast by BSM Partners. We're your hosts, Dr. Stephanie Clark—

01:49

Jordan Tyler

—and I'm Jordan Tyler.

01:53

Jordan Tyler

So, Abbey, thank you so much for joining us. We're excited to debunk some myths around the ingredients that we see in our food, that we see in our pets’ food, particularly going through some of the ingredients that we feel have been vilified in the eyes of consumers for both categories.

02:08

Jordan Tyler

So I want to start out just by getting your perspective. You're a food scientist, you have a ton of experience, and you do a lot of cool things with food science and making it accessible to people. But from your perspective, what role does the consumer perception around these ingredients play in the way that we choose, like food for ourselves and food for our pets?

02:28

Abbey Thiel

I think consumer perception is huge and it can drive trends and changes in the food industry. You know, like one ingredient all of a sudden is being vilified for maybe for right reasons, for wrong reasons, but, you know, if there's enough consumers behind it. I've seen companies start to change their formulations. You know, even if the facts are right or wrong, it doesn't always matter because as you know, as someone in the food industry, you need consumers to buy your food. That's the ultimate driver. So it's huge.

02:59

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. And we see just from like a pet food perspective, it's funny how the pet food industry seems to kind of follow trends in the human food Industry just, like, lagging by, like, a few years. And so it's super curious that we're like, okay, we vilified something like salt and human food.

03:15

Abbey Thiel

And.

03:16

Jordan Tyler

And so then we automatically just apply that perspective to salt in pet food or salt in all these other kinds of foods. And there are metabolical differences, right, between humans and pets and tons of other nuances like processing and things that, you know, the average consumer might not consider. So there are reasons why these ingredients are in food, and we're going to get into that a little bit today.

03:43

Abbey Thiel

No, and I see that same thing just looking at human food, because it's like, there's different nutritional needs for baby food versus toddler food versus if you're a grown adult or even, like, the elderly. Right. Everyone is going through these different phases. So you will see food companies will change the, you know, the nutritional requirements to meet the needs of that group.

04:03

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I was gonna say a silly story about salt. We had worked with a pet food brand, and they were so adamant about not putting salt in their formula because pet owners didn't want to see salt. But they were totally fine with sodium chloride.

04:16

Abbey Thiel

Yes. That's the problem. People don't understand if there has two names, it's…

04:22

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yes. I was like, so are you okay with sodium chloride? And they're like, yeah, we're totally fine with sodium chloride. Just no salt. And I'm like, okay.

04:29

Abbey Thiel

You know, what's funny is I often feel like the chemical name consumers hate. So this is like the opposite, Right? Because usually they'd be like, sodium chloride is so chemically. I don't want to. Chemicals in my food, but this is the opposite.

04:43

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah.

04:44

Dr. Stephanie Clark

But that's how much salt is hated. Well, poor salt.

04:50

Jordan Tyler

There's plenty more to be said about salt later today, and we will get to that, certainly. But we kind of wanted to set the stage with another ingredient that's been vilified and then kind of build things out from there. So one of the first major ingredients that we came across is cellulose.

05:05

Jordan Tyler

And I think part of the reason. Is people just don't understand really what cellulose is or what it really does in the body. So, Abbey, from your perspective, and then, Steph, maybe we can go to you from a pet food perspective. Why are people so turned off on cellulose as an ingredient?

05:21

Abbey Thiel

Yes. I think this is really blown up in. In food. So I think what people don't like about cellulose is like, one of the building blocks of all plants and trees. Like, it's in the cellular structure. If you, like, remember back to high school, you learned, like, animal cells and plant cells are different. And so cellulose is this component of plant cells. And we eat a ton of plants, right? It's in, you know, spinach and lettuce, but it's also in trees. And this is why in food, it has gotten in some trouble, because there are some people on the Internet that will simplify things and say, like, cellulose is what, wood pulp. Which cellulose isn't wood because it's in every plant cell. But it's not. That's not correct. Like, cellulose is in every fruit, vegetable, grain, you name it. It's not, you know, it's not the same thing as wood pulp.

06:17

Jordan Tyler

What do you hear, like, from clients or, like, when you talk to consumers, Dr. Clark—you know, working with clients in the pet food space, all of that—is that kind of the same assumption that, you know, we're just putting sawdust in pet food?

06:29

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I agree with Abby. Everyone's like, I don't want sawdust in my food. And it's like, while cellulose is a component of plants, and trees for that matter, which turn into sawdust, sometimes it's not sawdust. And I think when people take a step back, they forget, like, the functional aspect of it. So it's. It's not bad in the sense that it can help with gi. Like, we know that we need to feed our gut. And an insoluble fiber or a fermentable fiber such as cellulose can feed that good bacteria, and it can provide the host, the dog, the cat, us with energy. It's also a really good carrier because no one likes when you get that parmesan cheese and you get the. Maybe I do, because then I scoop it out and I eat it.

07:20

Dr. Stephanie Clark

But anyway, besides the point, when you get the parmesan cheese clump balls in, you're like trying to, like, shake it out, and you're like, literally sitting there shaking, and you're like, it's eventually gonna explode all over the pizza or whatever. But it's functional for that too. Yeah, sure, a little fiber, you know, with your pizza and your cheese. But it also serves a purpose not to have that cheese clump.

07:40

Abbey Thiel

No, And I agree with that. A lot of times I see, like, cellulose, it's used for, like, anti-caking in food in that parmesan cheese. Right. But it's kind of funny, cause from one aspect if you call, say, cellulose, maybe people are like, well, I don't want sawdust in my food, but if you call it a fiber, they're like, well, I do want fiber in my food, but cellulose is, you know, it's. You can call it by different names, but it doesn't really change what the molecule is.

08:07

Dr. Stephanie Clark

And just because it's abundant in everything really, like, doesn't mean it's bad. Water is also in trees, but it doesn't mean that when we're putting water into food or drinking water that we're essentially, you know… what, tree juice? I don't know.

08:24

Abbey Thiel

Tree milk. There we go. A new plant-based milk.

08:32

Dr. Stephanie Clark

So I think people forget, like, these things can be edible and are edible and they can be in different things that are and aren't edible.

08:41

Abbey Thiel

Yeah.

08:41

Jordan Tyler

And I think that comes back too, to your earlier point, Abbey, where people see the scientific name of something and they just can't connect it back to the tangible thing that they know, you know, and so it is just kind of educating people around. Well, actually sodium chloride is salt, so…

08:59

Abbey Thiel

No, I agree. And I think what just people don't understand about food, like, even when I introduce myself, like I'm a food scientist, they don't like to often think of like science behind their food because that makes it seem like fake or artificial, I guess. But like, as a food scientist, it's like, that's why at our grocery store, like, all the food is ripe when you buy it. Like, there's a food scientist behind that. That's why you can buy bread and it doesn't immediately mold when you bring it home. Like, there's all these aspects we take for granted. And we are very lucky, at least, you know, in America that, you know, we have so many food scientists working behind the scenes.

09:42

Jordan Tyler

That's a fabulous point. I'm so glad that you brought that up because it's like without our working knowledge of food science and without people behind the scenes being able to pull these levers and understand how everything like, fits into this puzzle of nutrition, then, yeah, we wouldn't have beautiful produce at the grocery store. We wouldn't have, you know, shredded cheese. We just wouldn't. We would have to shred it all ourselves.

10:06

Abbey Thiel

And you know what kind of the ironic thing is many times people in the kitchen do something like sort of food science-y without realizing it. So one of the first YouTube videos I made was like, why milk is pasteurized. And my grandma watched it. My family is like, very Wisconsin dairy farmers. And my grandma watched it and called me, and she's like, “Abbey, even my mother, she pasteurized the milk, but she just heated it on the stove,” which they didn't call pasteurization. Right? But she was heating it to kill the, like, harmful microorganisms. So, it's like, it's not always thought of as science say.

10:42

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah, that is true.

10:45

Jordan Tyler

Let's move now into another heavily vilified ingredient. Everybody hates this guy… Let's get salty.

10:54

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Put some salt in this wound.

10:57

Jordan Tyler

Right? I mean, we have this huge misunderstanding that salt is terrible for our health, but really, it's actually a super essential nutrient. We all need it. We need it. Our pets need it. Obviously, we don't need too much, but I feel like the caution against salt has totally been blown out of proportion. So, Abbey, from your perspective, why do you think that is?

11:20

Abbey Thiel

Yeah, it's really interesting because I think there's a lot of, like, public health campaigns about salt, which is valid. Like, the dose tends to make the poison. Having so much salt in your diet, if you eat a lot of, like, processed food is obviously not a great diet. It. But then I think we forget that salt, you absolutely need salt to live. So, like, sodium, for example, is important for nerve signaling, for muscle contraction, for, like, fluid balance in your body. Like, it is absolutely essential that your body has salt to function. And like, just as like, a fun fact, salt is so important to humans that a lot of the first civilizations started where there were salt deposits or salt mines, because salt, it was just so important to live.

12:08

Abbey Thiel

And salt actually comes from the word salary, since, like, Roman soldiers were paid in salt rations, which I think is interesting.

12:17

Dr. Stephanie Clark

And now it's of peasants. Peasant diet.

12:19

Abbey Thiel

Yes.

12:23

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I didn't know that.

12:24

Abbey Thiel

Yeah. So the word “sal,” like S-A-L in Latin means salt. So “salarium” was like, their salt salary. But I mean, as a food scientist, like, one of the first things you learn is how important salt is when, like, formulating food, which is really hard because this is one of these, like, maybe this is like the top vilified ingredient right now, I would say. But salt, as you know, in food has a really specific function, and it's to keep the food safe because it stops some of these bad microorganisms from growing. So, like, people could say, like, well, why can't you just take the salt out of our food? And we could, but your food would, like, mold and spoil and you'd get sick a lot easier. Right?

13:06

Abbey Thiel

Like, we are used to having these foods in the grocery store that have a really long shelf life and often that is done by adding salt to it. So, it's not, you know, that easy to take salt out of everything right now.

13:20

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Well, and I think people forget that like a little bit of salt goes a long way. Like, yes, it's on the ingredient deck of pet foods or some of our foods. But it's not like 5% salt. Like, we're not just like sitting there like just pouring salt in, you know, a little bit saline wise, microbes are not going to grow. It's, you know, great mold inhibitor. And correct me if I'm wrong, it was used to store food before refrigerators and freezers were a thing.

13:52

Abbey Thiel

Absolutely. What makes salt so useful is that it can actually sort of bind water or hold onto the water in the food so then the microorganisms can't use it. And you know, just like we need water to live, those microorganisms that can make you sick or spoil food also need water. So salt is like this like real superhero of a molecule. I also have an even nerdier fact about salt and I did research to learn this. But so if you're like someone who has to watch how much salt or you're trying to like lower your salt intake or whatever, you should actually use salt granules that are really small because only part of them, your saliva dissolves and they interact with your taste buds.

14:37

Abbey Thiel

If you use big granules, you actually don't even taste all that salt before you swallow because you only taste what's able dissolve in your saliva and then interact with your salty taste buds. So there's a lot of hidden salt that you're consuming, but it's not tasting salty.

14:55

Dr. Stephanie Clark

So what about this, like, rock salt and sea salt?

14:59

Abbey Thiel

Like, so I—sea salt to me is just less pure sodium chloride. Like sea salt just has impurities and it's like one of them is pink. So, now it looks pink. Like it's just, you know, a bunch of other minerals with the sodium chloride.

15:18

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I love it.

15:20

Abbey Thiel

Which I'm sure is not how a normal person thinks about like pink Himalayan sea salt.

15:25

Dr. Stephanie Clark

No, because it sounds fancy, it sounds exotic, it's all about title. But like, if you physically are not getting enough of that salty taste and the rest of it's just going in, who's it for?

15:37

Abbey Thiel

Yes, yes. And I mean, I like the look of it. It does look cool pink. But like, you know, beyond that, I'm not really… I don't see a difference.

15:48

Dr. Stephanie Clark

There is a debate inside BSM whether people are exposed too much salt or not enough salt. What is your take on that? There's no unless there's a right or wrong response. I mean, everyone's just throwing in their opinions.

16:02

Abbey Thiel

Yes, I—Yes. So, I don't know if there's a right or wrong response, but recently I was asked to develop like, a high salt beverage powder. I forget what. There is a brand out there and it's like 10 times the amount of salt doctors are currently saying you should consume. I don't consume this product, but apparently there's some research out there that says maybe we need more salt. Like not just sodium chloride, but also potassium chloride and magnesium. So, I think this might be one of the cases. It kind of depends on the person and your genetics. And, like, are you a person that works out a ton and you're like, really need to, like, replenish the salts and the fluid or are you, like, pretty sedentary and, like, a normal amount of salt is going to be okay?

16:53

Dr. Stephanie Clark

That's super interesting. I feel like salt and everything, but maybe it's just because it's talked about, but it's really, again, maybe it's just a small, minor amount, like a little sprinkle just to do what it needs to do for water activity and preservatives. So, thank you for that. Thank you for indulging us on our debate.

17:10

Abbey Thiel

I'm here for that.

17:13

Jordan Tyler

But it is, it's good to know that, you know, salt, she's not that bad. We need her for a lot of things. So do our pets. I think another interesting, like, part of this conversation is it's not only for, like, bodily functions. Like, it also helps to, like, preserve the product. So, like, there's multiple reasons these ingredients are in foods, in human foods, and in pet foods. It's to support our health and wellness at, like, a biological level, but it's also to ensure that the food that we're buying is fresh and it's not spoiled and it's not going to make us sick. So I think that's an important thing to just kind of blanket over all these ingredients that we're going to talk about today. They do have a purpose.

17:51

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Multiple purposes.

17:54

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. I wanted to throw in this question just because I'm curious and I have absolutely no idea. So let me know if it's a moot question, but is there, like, something else that we've been using? Like, I know when sugar—everybody decided that sugar was terrible, which, I mean, not the best, but when everybody decided we needed to stop eating so much sugar. Like Stevia came out and like we had all these different, like sugar replacements that we could use instead of sugar. Is there anything like that with salt? Like, given just our reluctance to eat salt?

18:28

Abbey Thiel

Yeah. So, the problem I run into is when you want to like reduce salt in a formulation is you can add other things. Like salt is. Usually when we say salt, we mean sodium chloride, but there's other salts like potassium chloride or magnesium chloride. The issue is though, is that those other ones don't taste clean or as like they don't have as good of a taste. There's off flavors to them. And this is why we always go back to sodium chloride, because everything else is just like a bit inferior.

19:04

Jordan Tyler

So the one that we've demonized actually works the best for our purposes?

19:09

Abbey Thiel

Yes, yes.

19:10

Jordan Tyler

And tastes the best. Yeah, there you go. Okay, let's shift the conversation again to flavor. I don't know, I was gonna say to something sexier, but I don't know—are flavors less sexy than salt? I don't know how to rank these ingredients in terms of sexiness, but flavors are something that have come into the public eye recently. Flavors and colors. Because there are a ton of artificial and synthetic flavors and colors that we use in food that are starting to be banned by the FDA and by certain states as well. But when we talk about flavorings in pet food, that's not what they're called. They're actually called palatants.

19:51

Dr. Stephanie Clark

They used to not be called palatants. Right. Like they used to be called digests because you take meat protein and you add enzymes and it pre-digests it, which makes it super tasty. Like the stinkier the better. I mean, we've talked about how like litter box flavoring is going to be a thing and like yard chocolate is going to be the next palatant later on in life. Like for whatever reason, dogs, they just love it. And so really it's the same thing. They just added a sexy name to it. Like, oh, it's more palatable. Literally the word is more palatable when you're saying it. But it's still the same thing. It's still pre-digested proteins. Or you can call it hydrolyzed proteins. Like either way, they're just being broken down, but they're being added in and it's usually either in the kibble, on the kibble, a mixture of both.

20:43

Jordan Tyler

Yes, exactly. And without them, the food is not going to be nearly as tasty to your Pet, like, they might not even eat it. And if they don't eat it, they can't get any of the benefit. So humans are a little different because we can eat whatever we want, for better or worse. But for pets who get, you know, the same two or a few complete and balanced meals per day, it's critically important that they find the food delicious. Otherwise, you're going shopping for new food, and that's not fun. But, Abbey, I'm super curious. From your perspective, why do you think flavorings get such a bad rap in general, not just in pet food? And what are some of the issues we as consumers see with things like artificial flavors? Are there any considerations for moving toward natural flavors? Just kind of give us the lay of the land here, as you see it.

21:34

Abbey Thiel

Yes, yes. So in foods, typically, people say we have artificial and natural flavors. So natural flavors have to be extracted from, like, a plant, a flower, you know, something like that. The problem is oftentimes with artificial flavors, which people are starting not to like, you know, see it on the ingredients. They're like, why can't they use natural flavors? Well, there might actually be a couple reasons. One, sometimes the natural flavor, it actually takes, like, quite a lot of processing steps. Like, think, if you want, like, an apple flavor, how are you gonna get that molecule? Like, flavors are specific molecules in a whole apple. How do you just take that one flavor molecule out and, like, sort of concentrate it?

22:18

Abbey Thiel

So actually, as an ingredient, like getting natural flavors, there is a lot of steps, which means it's quite expensive to buy then, because so much work is being put into getting this flavor. And so in foods we like, at least historically, there's been a lot of artificial flavors, because when we make these, they're super concentrated. So you add, you know, like a little drop. But it's a lot of flavor in the food. So it's more like bang for your money, say. And at least in foods now, and I would say from at least an American perspective, we really like a lot of flavor. We like flavor and color and bigger and better. And so, like, in the U.S. like, a strawberry yogurt is not just flavored with strawberries, because an American couldn't even tell that was like, a strawberry flavor.

23:07

Abbey Thiel

Like, strawberries just aren't that strong themselves to provide the flavor. So even if strawberries are included, there's probably actually artificial flavor or both to be like, oh, no, this is obviously a strawberry yogurt. And so it's really has to do with a lot of preferences, has to do with cost but absolutely, we are seeing, I would say right now in human food, we're seeing like the fall of artificial flavors and more of the rise of natural flavors, which I.

23:38

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Think is really interesting because we had talked to Pete Stirling from Skout’s Honor and he was throwing out some numbers about like, for like almond extract or rose extract and like the amount of like roses and acres that you have to basically destroy just for like an ounce.

24:00

Pete Stirling

I think that people would be shocked to know what some of these natural ingredients, if you're going to go truly natural and you're going to get a USDA certified product or something that is 100% bio based, you know, it's taken directly from the original ingredient and the impact that can have from an environmental standpoint also the lack of differentiation between a lab produced version of the exact same chemical that's being extracted from the fruit or the flower. One of the most common ingredients used in fragrances especially is almonds. There's a lot of talk now about almonds and the environmental impact of almonds. So I pulled up some fun numbers for you. So, to make one ounce of almond fragrance extract, it takes 2,000 almonds. And that's your best-case scenario.

24:48

Pete Stirling

Now every Single Almond takes 10 gallons of water to produce. So you're looking at about 20,000 gallons of water to make one ounce of almond fragrance extract. Whereas you can make that in a lab and minimal footprint and get the exact same compound that you're trying to extract from that almond rose oil is another one that you find a ton in fragrances and a lot of cosmetic ingredients. Well, let's just say just get a kilo of rose absolute. You're looking at between 3 to 5 tons of petals pulled from 1.7 million roses. So you're talking 5 acres need to be cleared, irrigated and harvested. And that is besides the environmental impact of just tilling that soil, working that land, you're also looking at the chemicals that are used in the cultivation and any of these natural extracts, you're going to run into a lot of issues where you have potential irritants, allergens. The level of purity in that is very difficult to achieve.

25:46

Pete Stirling

So, there could be other things in there that you don't even know are there and that are very difficult to figure out what's there. Whereas when you're talking about something that's created in the lab, it's very specific, very pure, and you can use a whole lot less of it. Whereas you might need to use 5 to 15% of a rose oil extract. In order to accomplish the fragrance profile you're looking for, you could use less than 1% of a synthetic because it's so pure and get the exact same fragrance levels. It'd probably be more stable and ultimately probably a little safer.

26:21

Dr. Stephanie Clark

And so I think it's really interesting that you had mentioned like artificial, like down was artificial, but like up with sustainability. So it's like, yes, what are you trying to do?

26:33

Abbey Thiel

And like, even more, I would say even more important right now in human food is natural versus artificial colors. I would say, because it's the same thing with natural colors, is now that everyone, all the food industry is trying to go to natural colors. We don't even have like enough farmland to grow the crops that could produce enough of these natural colors. Right. It's a whole process to get something like a natural color or flavor. It's no, it's no easy, like one step thing.

27:02

Jordan Tyler

And that comes back to. I'm so glad you brought that up, Steph. Cause I was gonna bring up that piece from our Skout’s Honor conversation too. But it also reminds me bringing like going into colors as well. We've done an episode in the past on insect protein and like, people are so turned off by it. They don't wanna feed it to their pets because that's not what we eat. We don't eat bugs, but we totally do eat bugs. And, and when we are like looking at artificial versus natural colors, like that red dye number four or 40, I can't remember, is it 40?

27:33

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah.

27:04

Jordan Tyler

One of the key replacements for that, natural replacements for that is literally a ground up bug. And so it's like there's such a mismatched, like, understanding of what these ingredients actually are, where they come from, what their environmental impact is, and how some of these natural alternatives actually go against our ethos or our perceived ethos when it comes to what we eat and what we don't eat.

27:57

Abbey Thiel

No, I know the color you're talking about is like carmine or cochineal. It's called, it's red, a natural red. You know, it's an insect-made color, same as your protein. But people have this really weird reaction when I can tell you the food you eat does have bugs in it. There is a legal level of insects and insect parts that the FDA sets. You eat them every day without noticing it. So, I hate to tell you that you pay for them… you buy them.

28:29

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, yeah. Crazy. Crazy. I was shocked to learn that. I mean, I guess I wasn't super shocked having been in the pet industry and having a little bit of insider knowledge that way. But I just thought it was so funny to hear people be like, no, I'm never eating a bug. And I'm like, actually, you probably had one with your coffee this morning.

28:45

Abbey Thiel

Yes. Yeah.

28:46

Dr. Stephanie Clark

And your peanut sandwich for lunch.

28:47

Abbey Thiel

Yes, yes. And what's always interesting to me is because right now there's such like a push for like natural colors. And it's like, where do you think we can get them from? Like, it's plants, animals, insects, like, I don't know, microorganisms. Like we have. If you want it to be natural, there's limited places for these to come from.

29:10

Jordan Tyler

So rounding out our vilified ingredients today are a particularly mysterious gums and thickeners. And I would imagine this gets more into the realm of like unfamiliar equals bad, which is not always true. So, Abbey, what are your two cents? What are some gums and thickening ingredients that we might see in our food and in our pet's food, and why do people hate seeing them on these labels?

29:38

Abbey Thiel

So I use like the terms gum and hydrocolloids and thickeners interchangeably. So just so you know. But these hydrocolloids, these ingredients are super common in foods because they're going to be in your salad dressings, your sauces, your plant-based milks, in ice cream. We use them to prevent like ice crystal growth in protein shakes. Like it prevents that separation of different ingredients. And so, these are super common. But I think you have a good point there that like some of their names are weird if you're not like a food scientist. And this makes people quite skeptical of them. So, like you might see on an ingredient statement like guar or locust bean gum, these are actually both fibers. So, if you hear fiber as a consumer, you're probably like, yay. But if you hear locust bean gum, you're like, nay.

30:29

Abbey Thiel

There's also one that microorganisms make that's very common. It's xanthan gum with a X. Sometimes we use seaweed. So, we have like carrageenan is a thickener alginate. So, there's all these different hydrocolloids that are very common in foods. And I would say most of the time they're to add the texture or add thickening, like add viscosity, something like that.

30:57

Jordan Tyler

And it's the functional property of these things, like, it's pretty similar in pet food, right Steph?

31:03

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm thinking in my head the typical like chunks and gravy or like the stews to get that gravy and to get the meat chunks to float around in the gravy or the peas and the carrots to suspend nicely. Like, you need a gum. And whenever I'm talking to clients about it, I kind of like, use Thanksgiving. But like, how do you like your Thanksgiving? Like turkey gravy. Like, do you like it runny or do you want it, like, thick and opaque and like, you know, stick into, like, the insides? Like, you can have that range just by adjusting the gum inclusion. And I get it. At least on the pet side. The negativity around it is like the potential of GI upset because acids can sometimes be used to extract the fibers or the gum portion from seaweed.

31:52

Dr. Stephanie Clark

And there can be residual acid. But I mean, you're talking about like a very small amount of. There's, there's a lot of different acids. Right. Acid can also be probably a vilified ingredient. There's citric acid. Right. So. But we've tried, at least in pet food to get a creamy or a broth or a gravy, like, consistency or even like the cans, like we call them loaves or pates to get that congeal. That sounds really bad too. But you use gums for that. And we try using other things without gums, but then you kind of go into like porcine plasma or using a lot of like, peas and lentils or aquafaba. So. And then you usually don't get like the same texture. Like, it's either like a rock hard or it can be kind of mushy or can be slimy.

32:44

Dr. Stephanie Clark

So it's like we're using these. Honestly, at the end of the day, the FDA has deemed them as safe. And the amount that you're using them isn't going to really irritate. Like, yeah, I'm sure if a dog got into like a pound of agar. Agar, sure. Yeah, I can see some upset tummies. I would too. But we're not using it in pounds. In a can of pet food, we're using it at like a fraction of a percent.

33:08

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. And when you use such a little amount, like what we're talking about here is a processing benefit. Like, we wouldn't be able to get the texture. We wouldn't be able to get, like the mouth feel when it comes to human foods like cats, I guess you could make the argument care about mouthfeel, but [for] dogs, doesn't matter for them quite as much. But still with like, wet cat Food products, that texture element is so, so important. And you just can't achieve that without a gum, a thickener, a hydrocolloid, anything under this kind of umbrella that we've been talking about, what are maybe some. I mean, are there alternatives that people are more familiar with? I would kind of imagine that this is just a category that everybody just vilifies because it's unfamiliar and we just don't understand why we need these ingredients in food even at such low inclusions.

33:56

Abbey Thiel

Yeah, I do think it is partly the name. They kind of play a similar role. If you're like someone who cooks, when you add like cornstarch to something, like to a gravy, but these hydrocolloids, cornstarch is a bit limited because you have to heat it to get it to function. And if you've ever added too much cornstarch, you can taste it and it doesn't taste good. And so these other molecules, these other ingredients are a little more versatile, I would say. But if you're someone who cooks and use cornstarch, we are doing the same thing, but just with different ingredients.

34:30

Dr. Stephanie Clark

What are some other, like, human foods? Foods we eat every single day, probably multiple times a day, but we have no idea.

34:38

Abbey Thiel

Another good example is chocolate milk. So actually, the cocoa particles, they're too dense, too heavy, so they would all go to the bottom. And so carrageenan is always added to chocolate milk because it thickens it that those particles can't drop as quickly. So over the shelf life, we don't visually see a difference. Another example people can relate to is, like, when you make your own salad dressing at home, you, like, shake it, use it, and then if you set it aside, it immediately separates. Right. But in the grocery store, you might notice that a lot of them aren't 100% separated. Like, these salad dressings probably have one, two or three hydrocolloids added because, I don't know, we're visual eaters. It's not that anything is wrong with the product. If it separates. You've maybe seen juices separate and that's because they don't have a hydrocolloid.

35:31

Abbey Thiel

But for some reason in our minds, like when it forms those different layers, we are a bit disgusted. Even though you could just shake it.

35:40

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Above shaking, it's gone.

35:43

Jordan Tyler

That's hilarious.

35:44

Jordan Tyler

And such a good point. Like, we just expect all of our food to be in pristine condition all the time. And it's like if we have that expectation, we have to be okay with some of these processing aids and Some of these ingredients being in the food because that's how we're going to get there.

35:58

Dr. Stephanie Clark

You know, I think the chocolate milk is an excellent example. I was not expecting that. I was thinking like maybe like canned soup.

36:06

Abbey Thiel

No. When I was teaching at university, so this was a lab I would teach, every year was a chocolate milk lab. So we would make our own. And some would not add a thickener, some would add too much, some would add too little. And then we would let them sit for a couple hours and we would see good chocolate milk and really disgusting versions.

36:25

Jordan Tyler

Like chocolate cottage cheese, perhaps?

36:31

Abbey Thiel

Yes. And sometimes if you add too much, the thickener forms like its own layer as well. It's like a big plug. So, like we already see all these variations.

36:42

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, we gotta get off this because now I'm getting very detailed visions of cursed chocolate milk. But really a great example and appreciate you sharing your perspective on all these vilified ingredients and why they're not so bad after all. So, for now I thought we could shift a little bit. I know, Abbey, you've done a ton of educating the public and even kids around food science, what it is, why it's so important, and debunking some of the myths that we hear. So just based on some of the things that you've done to educate, what strategies have you found helpful?

37:21

Abbey Thiel

Yeah, I would say the number one thing is realizing how useful fear is. Like when I watch like the popular food videos or TikToks, almost always people are like using a fear-based strategy. Like this ingredient is going to kill you and your kids. And it's like it's not. But you're making people so scared that they feel like for the sake of their kids and their health, like they will just stop. Because most of us are just very busy. But if you watch one 30 second video that makes you so scared about a certain food, you oftentimes don't put in more research, which I totally understand. And so, if you are starting to like, have a thought about a trend or a certain food or a certain ingredient, I would just think like, why am I feeling this way? And is it fear based? Because that is how a lot of popular things will get you right now. But it's often something like if you back out and you like calm down, it's really not something to be afraid of.

38:25

Jordan Tyler

I feel like that's really great advice. Just like in general, you know.

38:29

Abbey Thiel

True, true.

38:30

Jordan Tyler

You can step back, take a deep breath, revisit. It's probably not as serious as you thought.

38:35

Abbey Thiel

Good point. Yes. Yes.

38:38

Jordan Tyler

Do you want to talk about the book you authored at all or the onus behind making food science accessible to kids? You know, gotta start them young.

38:49

Abbey Thiel

Yes. Yes. No, no. So, I love talking about food science always. And I've always been so into teaching food science. I've taught at university for years and years. But I really. I mean, I'm someone, like, I didn't grow up being, like, I want to be a food scientist, but. Because I had no idea that was even an option. Right. And I feel like, you know, no kids know that's actually an option. And so, I've been trying to make. I have, like, a lot of little nieces and nephews, and I always make them, like, worksheets or, like, coloring pages. And I finally, like, assembled everything into a candy science coloring book for kids. So, it shows them, like, okay, this is how, like, toffee is made. Or this is the machine, like, gummy bears are made on.

39:32

Abbey Thiel

Like, each page is obviously, like, a page they can color, but kind of like a fun science fact about candy, which I feel like candy science is, like, a great way to get kids, you know, like, interested in STEM things, interested in science. Like, I would have loved that as a kid.

39:49

Jordan Tyler

Totally. Me too. Yeah. I would have been instantly like, oh, we're talking about candy. Okay.

39:54

Abbey Thiel

Yes, yes, exactly. And, like, it's, again, one of those things, like, people don't realize candy is actually, like, very difficult to make. There's a lot of science behind candy. And so I took my first confectionary science class as a senior. Like, I literally took a whole class. We would make candy every week in lab. It was awesome.

40:14

Jordan Tyler

Amazing. What was your favorite thing to make in that class?

40:17

Abbey Thiel

Ooh, we made, like, the best orange slices. Like, the. The gummy jelly orange slices. And they were fresh, so they had, like, kind of a different taste texture because it would change over time. Oh, they were so good.

40:30

Jordan Tyler

Yum. I love those videos online of the machines that pull, like, taffy.

40:36

Abbey Thiel

Taffy, yes. That's one of the images in my coloring book is a taffy puller. Yeah, yeah.

40:43

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. Incredible. I love it so much. And we'll put a link to the coloring book and to your YouTube channel in the show notes for this episode. So please, people can go check you out. The coloring book, seriously, is so cute, y'all, and I personally learned a ton watching Abbey’s YouTube channel, so definitely take a moment to explore both of those. And I have two more questions to wrap us up today.

41:07

Jordan Tyler

So we've talked about all these vilified ingredients, and as were researching this episode, it made us think of some of those fad diets that are out there. So, like the cabbage diet, the pink drink detox, where people mix, like, Himalayan sea salt with lemon and water, and there's tons and tons of others. But all these fads speak more or less to the ingredients in foods that were comfortable consuming and those were not. So, Abbey, any parallels that you see between some of these fad diets and some of the ingredients we've been talking about, or any, like, words of wisdom, words of caution, perhaps, when it comes to fad diets or trendy things like this?

41:53

Abbey Thiel

Yes. Yeah. I will be the first to say, as a food scientist, with all I've seen and when people ask me, like, what's your best food advice? I simply just say, like, eat a diverse diet. Like these fad diets. I would never just. Because what I try to remember with these fads and sometimes even trends, is often there's, like, a monetary reason behind it. Like, either a company is trying to pump out, you know, maybe it's like a pink salt company, and they're like, we gotta get the sales going. Right? Let's get this, like, Instagram, you know, like, let's get all these influencers on Instagram. So, like, when it comes to anything with food, like, that's really trending or popular, I would just remember to think, like, what is the motivating force behind this? And is this, like, nutritionally correct for me to do?

42:42

Abbey Thiel

Because we've seen so many things come and go. Like, I feel like 10 years ago, it was like, everything needs to have fiber added to it. But, like, right now, like, all the projects I do are adding protein to it. When if you kind of, like, step back, it's like, well, do you really need to eat a pudding that is high in protein or should you go eat, like, a steak? Like, you know, it's. Sometimes you just have to, like, back away from the fads and think, like, I could just eat a very simple meal and be very healthy.

43:16

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. It doesn't have to be as complicated as we make it. And I love your point to diversity. I mean, that's the best thing that we can do for ourselves, for our health. And that's why we have to feed pets a complete and balanced diet, because they need each of those nutrients every single day. And we are able to achieve that in our diet by eating a variety of different foods. So it's like when you're narrowing that scope, you're probably not doing your body a whole lot of benefit.

43:43

Abbey Thiel

Right, right.

43:44

Jordan Tyler

So, kind of to close us out for today, what advice would you give to just consumers? Right? Our listenership are pet owners, but they don't just buy food for their pets. They also buy food for themselves. So, like, as they're walking down the aisle, the human food aisle and the pet food aisle. Human food aisle—

44:03

Abbey Thiel

I know, that's good.

44:05

Jordan Tyler

Oh man. Friday afternoon, gotta love her. But yeah, as people are kind of perusing the aisles and feeling overwhelmed maybe by the things that they see on ingredient lists, what would be like your biggest piece of advice for them?

44:17

Abbey Thiel

Yeah, what I think would be useful is if you're reading like an ingredient statement and you see an ingredient you don't like, or you're like, why is that in there? Or you watch a video and you're like, why would they use this ingredient? I would maybe just try to like spend five minutes researching it and trying to find like a legitimate source, maybe like FDA, USDA. Because like I said, a lot of this is just run on fear. And if you can just like educate yourself a little bit, you might be able to let that fear go and realize, okay, this is what that ingredient is doing. Okay. It's not going to kill me, it's not going to kill my pet.

44:53

Abbey Thiel

Like you will be able to get rid of that fear, I think within like five minutes of not watching like something that's really trying to provoke you. Like just read an article that's not trying to get you fearful.

45:07

Jordan Tyler

That's great advice. Yeah. There's a lot of really like fear mongering marketing out there.

45:14

Abbey Thiel

Absolutely.

45:15

Jordan Tyler

The people that are, like, pushing out this type of messaging that like induces fear about a certain ingredient, they're not doing it as like a public service announcement. They're doing—

45:24

Abbey Thiel

No, no.

45:25

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, right. They have an ulterior motive.

45:27

Abbey Thiel

There's a financial motivation to most of fear-based—like, yes. Yes, absolutely.

45:33

Jordan Tyler

So, it's always good to just like, okay, take a step back, take a deep breath, go find a source that is not for profit, not affiliated with whoever's trying to sell you the idea that this ingredient is scary and terrible and going to kill your dog or kill you.

45:48

Abbey Thiel

No, exactly.

45:52

Jordan Tyler

So yeah, food science really is the humble superhero behind our supermarkets, food manufacturing facilities and pet food aisles around the world. It keeps our food safe, our shelves stocked and our pets healthy. And it's the reason we can trust that what's in the bag are on the plate has purpose, function and a whole lot of science behind it. Fear might make for great headlines, but science makes better dinner for us and our animal companions. So next time you see an ingredient you can't pronounce, ask what it does before deciding what it means. A little curiosity goes a long way. Question the fads, check your sources and remember, the better we understand our food, the better choices we can make for the ones we love, two-legged and -four.

46:46

Jordan Tyler

A huge thanks to Abbey Thiel for sharing her time and insights with us today. If you'd like to explore her YouTube channel where she educates about food, science and practical fun ways, we've added a link to that in the show Notes for today's episode. And there's also a link to her Candy Science Coloring book, so be sure to check those out.

47:01

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Barking Mad. If you want to learn more about BSM Partners, please Visit us at www.bsmpartners.net don't forget to subscribe on your favorite leading podcast platform or share it with a friend to stay current on the latest pet industry trends and conversations.

47:22

Jordan Tyler

We'd also like to thank our dedicated team, Ada-Miette Thomas, Neeley Bowden, Kait Wright, Cady Wolf and Dr. Katy Miller. A special shout out to Lee Ann Hagerty and Michael Johnson in support of this episode, and to David Perez for our original music in the intro and outro. See you next time!

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