In case you didn't know, there is this new film called Sinners and I'm joined by Brooke Obie, filmmaker and critic to discuss!

Brooke Obie

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Track 1: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I am your host, Evan,

Track 1: back again with another film discussion from the left.

Track 1: You can follow the show at leftoftheprojector.com. This week on the show,

Track 1: we are talking about the hit film released just a month ago,

Track 1: Sinners, directed by Ryan Coogler.

Track 1: It has, as of recording, hit $215 million in the domestic box office and closing

Track 1: in on $300 million worldwide.

Track 1: With me to discuss this great film, I have filmmaker and critic Brooke Obie.

Track 1: Thank you so much for joining me today.

Track 2: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Track 1: Of course, of course. And I guess before we dive in, do you want to tell people

Track 1: where they can find your work, what other work you have, you know,

Track 1: anything that people can access?

Track 2: Oh, sure. So I am a film critic. I am a filmmaker.

Track 2: You can find all of my work at brookeobie.com. But my newsletter is where I

Track 2: do my criticism as of the past year, and it is Black Girl Watching on Substack.

Track 2: So you can find all of my many pieces on Sinners, including my upcoming syllabus

Track 2: on what to watch, what to read, what to listen to, all of that.

Track 2: All the videos on the making of Sinners

Track 2: and all of that you can find in my syllabus on Black Girl Watching.

Track 1: Well, that actually leads me to sort of like a, before we maybe talk about the

Track 1: film itself, is sometimes I ask different kind of, you know,

Track 1: icebreaker type questions. And because...

Track 1: You mentioned the syllabus, and I'm thinking about, I saw a lot of people,

Track 1: you posting it, a number of other people after Sinners came out,

Track 1: is, you know, if you like Sinners, you might also like X.

Track 1: And I think I saw my reading list, you know, grew substantially in,

Track 1: you know, books that I had seen and, you know, media and movies I'd seen.

Track 1: So I'm curious if you have, if you can't narrow it down to one, you can share a couple.

Track 2: Um, so I do have one book that I actually wish that Ryan Coogler had read in

Track 2: the making of this movie.

Track 2: Um, it's a book by Angela Davis. It's called Blues Legacies and Black Feminism.

Track 2: And it talks about the history of Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith, Billie Holiday,

Track 2: and how central they were to the blues legacy.

Track 2: And also how central black feminism was to the creation of this music and surviving this time period.

Track 2: So I think it would have been, it's, it's great for us to know now moving forward.

Track 2: And I think it would have been really awesome for Ryan to have included some

Track 2: of that information as well in this film.

Track 1: Nice. Yeah. I think, I think, well, I assume that will be on your,

Track 1: on your syllabus along with for sure lots of other things

Track 1: yeah and the and the the one that i had read and i

Track 1: have didn't read i don't know maybe it's just uh things that are similar but

Track 1: i read ring shout last year or actually 2023 now i was looking at my goodreads

Track 1: i read it two years ago almost and i would say that that is sort of like the

Track 1: closest book or media i read that has kind of a very similar.

Track 1: Vibe so if you've read it you might know what i'm talking about i won't spoil

Track 1: it you know let people check that out on their own, but that would be my, um,

Track 1: the one suggestion that I would have as far as film.

Track 1: And I saw the, uh, author talking a lot about both his book and just,

Track 1: you know, sinners as well on, uh, on thread.

Track 1: So clearly it was, uh, in a lot of people's minds, but

Track 1: Yeah, before I maybe walk, we sort of talk through the plot and maybe,

Track 1: or sorry, before I ask you sort of like, why, you know, why talk about this film?

Track 1: Why have you written numerous, you know, pieces about it, which everyone should go check out?

Track 1: I'm going to maybe just very briefly sketch out the plot.

Track 1: I mean, again, of course, there's going to be spoilers to the film past this,

Track 1: past this moment in the episode. But it primarily involves Elijah Smoke and

Track 1: Elias Stack, both played by Michael B.

Track 1: Jordan, in 1932 in Clarksdale, Mississippi.

Track 1: And they both have their individual paths, as we'll kind of talk about in a little while.

Track 1: And they use money that they had stolen from some people while living in Chicago

Track 1: to purchase a sawmill to start their own juke joint for the local community.

Track 1: And it kind of follows the you know about the first half of the movie kind of

Track 1: follows or maybe more than the first half of the movie follow sort of the entire

Track 1: day as they're planning to open it up and actually opening up for their opening

Track 1: night and then of course things slowly.

Track 1: Unravel in in the way they might in a movie like this and i think it's it's

Track 1: hard to maybe describe the full plot but what maybe drew you to this and had

Track 1: you heard about the film before it had come out?

Track 1: Were you waiting for it to come out and then you went to go see it?

Track 2: I was not that excited about it. If I'm going to be honest, I was not that excited

Track 2: about it when I heard about it, when I heard the premise.

Track 2: I just wasn't sure, honestly. I wasn't really sure.

Track 2: I think I had seen the trailer and it looked interesting.

Track 2: I'm a vampire girly, so I love vampire lore.

Track 2: So I was like okay you know I will I

Track 2: will find out what

Track 2: this is all about um I wasn't the biggest fan of Wakanda

Track 2: Forever so it wasn't like I was just like or Creed 3 um which I I did like but

Track 2: in retrospect I'm like in combination with Wakanda Forever um I was just like

Track 2: you know I think there's a pattern that's developing here with black women and

Track 2: the way they're being used in these movies.

Track 2: So I was honestly not that thrilled for it, but, uh, went into it,

Track 2: uh, not really knowing what to expect and was completely blown away.

Track 2: The first time that I watched it, I don't know how I felt about it.

Track 2: I don't know if it was positive or negative. I just know that I had a lot of feeling.

Track 2: And, you know, for me, when I write reviews, um, especially if,

Track 2: you know, there's something that I I'm not quite sure about.

Track 2: I don't feel comfortable just watching it one time. So I had to go back and

Track 2: see it again. So I saw it twice before it actually came out for the public.

Track 2: And it was that second time that I was like, oh, this is the feelings that I'm having.

Track 2: They're complicated, but this is a gorgeous piece of cinema that is going to

Track 2: last for a really, really long time. Like it was that second viewing that was

Track 2: like, that clarified a lot of stuff for me.

Track 2: And even some of the stuff that I kind of, you know, wasn't all that comfortable

Track 2: with in my first viewing, my second viewing, it all kind of gelled.

Track 2: And I was just like, I understand why these things had to happen this way.

Track 2: I would prefer it to happen a different way. But I understand.

Track 2: And, you know, I don't it just it felt like a gift.

Track 2: And then so now I've seen it seven times. So since then, for various reasons,

Track 2: some have been, you know, I wanted to see it in 70 millimeters.

Track 2: So I went to Quentin Tarantino's movie theater here in L.A. and saw it,

Track 2: which was an amazing experience opening night.

Track 2: Ryan and cast actually came that night. They were so excited that we wanted

Track 2: to see it in the format that he created.

Track 2: For us to watch it in. Um, so that was exciting.

Track 2: Um, the fourth time I, I went with a friend who hadn't seen it.

Track 2: Um, the fifth, the sixth time I know it was because of the IMAX film strip. I wanted that strip.

Track 2: Um, yeah. And the seventh time another friend hadn't seen it and we just seen

Track 2: Thunderbolts and I was underwhelmed and he was like, well, we're at the movies, let's go see sinners.

Track 2: And so I saw it a seventh time and it does, it gets better.

Track 2: It literally is one of those things that just gets better with every single

Track 2: viewing it's a it's a real work of art.

Track 1: Yeah i would agree i saw it the first time i hadn't even seen the trailer and didn't i just knew,

Track 1: kugler's like past work and kind of like

Track 1: you said i kind of had like mixed feelings like some of his earlier films i

Track 1: like more some of the later ones less so and i went in knowing almost nothing

Track 1: about it and just almost couldn't believe it it was just like the most one of

Track 1: the most immersive of an impressive experience and i saw it the first time in

Track 1: 70 millimeter imax so i was like i just couldn't it was a crazy and then a friend

Track 1: of mine wanted to see it and i thought well,

Track 1: i'll go see it again and we saw it again in imax and

Track 1: he was also blown away and as you said like there

Track 1: were so many things i did not notice the first time and that's the case with

Track 1: a lot of films i guess but this in particular had like layers upon layers each

Track 1: time i saw it and so i don't know was there you said because you said you saw

Track 1: it twice before and then you saw it again did more what was what would you say

Track 1: is like the most impressive sounds kind of like a,

Track 1: It's a hard thing to pin down, but what would you say, as a cinematic achievement,

Track 1: what do you think is the most impressive aspect of it?

Track 2: Oh, cinematic achievement. I mean, it would have to be the music scene, the juke joint scene.

Track 2: I feel like on my third watch is when I cried at that scene.

Track 2: I felt like I had time to digest everything that was going on,

Track 2: to see the different instruments and to see, you know, all the different types

Track 2: of ancestry that were represented in that scene.

Track 2: And just it being a one-er, you know, just that single shot moving through this

Track 2: space and this camera is just snaking all around this space.

Track 2: And, you know, having the actual physical manifestation of what we say,

Track 2: like the roof is on fire, like, you know, I raised the roof, all that,

Track 2: you know, like, and to see that on screen, like,

Track 2: it really felt like Ryan was visually translating so much of not just our musical history or our even,

Track 2: you know, just Black American lingo that we have that when we're talking about,

Track 2: you know, something that was celebratory.

Track 2: It was also just like, we're tracing here the history of the club scene,

Track 2: the space itself as a, as a space where you can be free of enslavement,

Track 2: whichever form it takes, you know,

Track 2: whether it's your, I'm a millennial.

Track 2: So we were in the club with our business casual, you know, in the early aughts

Track 2: looking absolutely insane now in retrospect, but I'm just like,

Track 2: like that was what we were doing.

Track 2: And that was, you know, I, I remember Thursday, Friday, Saturday in my twenties,

Track 2: like that was where, like, I went straight from work to that space and met up with my friends.

Track 2: And we just, you know, to understand that he is trying to show that this is

Track 2: a through line that it started not necessarily even as a, um.

Track 2: As a reaction to white supremacist oppression in this country,

Track 2: that it's rooted in something beyond, you know, that experience,

Track 2: that it's all of this started where we started in West Africa,

Track 2: in Southern and Central Africa.

Track 2: And, you know, bringing those traditions over, it was just like,

Track 2: okay, now this thing is happening.

Track 2: We're experiencing this thing and now we're using it to battle what we're currently facing.

Track 2: But it feels like an ancient tradition to me.

Track 2: It felt like that's what he was showing us, an ancient tradition that is going to continue,

Track 2: that's lasted longer than their structures, and that will continue on beyond

Track 2: these white supremacist oppressive structures, that we will always go as a people towards freedom.

Track 2: And it will be loud, and it will be joyous and it will be musical and it will be in community.

Track 2: And so, yeah, I would say translating all of that without dialogue,

Track 2: um, I think was the best cinematic achievement of this film.

Track 1: Yeah. I would, I would agree that that, that scene just, and I went in not knowing

Track 1: the second time you go in, you know, it's going to happen and it's still mind

Track 1: blowing. I think is just, it doesn't lose its potency at all.

Track 1: And actually that kind of the, kind of the through line you're talking about

Track 1: kind of maybe makes a good maybe a good point to

Track 1: kind of discuss is the time period

Track 1: which i mentioned this happens in 1932 in mississippi

Track 1: and the primary most of the people that

Track 1: are in this film work or live around a plantation as a sharecroppers and i think

Track 1: that the context of when it takes place the location kind of all of that components

Track 1: to it you also get brought into the town nearby where they're all,

Track 1: you know, where they end up meeting several other characters,

Track 1: which we'll kind of maybe talk through some of the characters.

Track 1: But what do you make of choosing this specific moment for, you know,

Track 1: the context of the film, you know, post-World War I and kind of this,

Track 1: You know, this, I don't want to try to think of the term I'm thinking for,

Track 1: just kind of like, well, I'll let you answer.

Track 2: You know, it's in the center of the Jim Crow time period.

Track 1: That's the word that I was thinking of.

Track 2: Yeah, yeah. So that's where we are. I think that matters for a lot of reasons.

Track 2: I mean, blues music obviously, you know, started during enslavement in America.

Track 2: Um, so it's, it's not like, you know, the 1930s is a particular time of its

Track 2: origins necessarily, but I mean, we are at a growing, you know,

Track 2: height at this point, um, for blues music.

Track 2: Um, you know, this is also, you know, so reconstruction has failed,

Track 2: um, you know, and, and we're living totally under Jim Crow at this,

Track 2: at this time period. And so, you know, having it set at this point.

Track 2: For one, you can just highlight a lot of things, I think. Slavery is over.

Track 2: But again, because of the evolution, which I think this movie also tracks,

Track 2: it tracks the evolution of slavery.

Track 2: So we have sharecropping, we have Black people still on plantations that were

Track 2: pretty much all through the mid-century, that was all still happening.

Track 2: And so I do think this was a great opportunity.

Track 2: You have, you know, legends like Bessie Smith, um, Ma Rainey,

Track 2: like they're very popular at this time period too, which was why I think it's

Track 2: such an oversight that, um, you know, we have Pearlene, which I love.

Track 2: And I think that's amazing.

Track 2: And Jamie Lawson does an incredible job, um, with playing Pearlene and,

Track 2: and, uh, her song rivals, if, if not best, um, Sammy's song,

Track 2: you know, Pale Pale Moon.

Track 2: But, you know, I do think it is a little, it is,

Track 2: it's an oversight to me to not have a queer presence on screen because this

Track 2: is the time period where Black queer blues musicians who helped in founding

Track 2: the genre and defining the genre and moving it forward were very active at this time period.

Track 2: So I also think, you know, this is a very personal story for Ryan.

Track 2: So he's talking about his great uncle. This is the time when he's alive.

Track 2: And so what I thought was so beautiful

Track 2: listening to Ryan talk about his memories with his great uncle and,

Track 2: you know, going to his house as a kid and listening to his great uncle play

Track 2: all these blues legends all the time was that, you know, he's trying to conjure,

Track 2: his great uncle was trying to conjure what was going on at that time period.

Track 2: Like who are the people that he lost? You know, who are the,

Track 2: you know, the, the friends, the cousins, the, the lovers, you know,

Track 2: all the people that he left behind when he moved to Oakland.

Track 2: And so, you know, I do think it's very specific to Ryan's family that he chose

Track 2: this time period as well.

Track 2: But again, it's ripe for so much discussion. And it's also not shown on screen a lot.

Track 2: So I think that kind of helps as well. We get the 1800s, we get the 1950s and

Track 2: 60s and beyond, but how many movies are focused on the 1930s?

Track 1: Yeah, unless it's a movie about the Great Depression specifically,

Track 1: you really don't get much of that for.

Track 2: Black people specific.

Track 1: Oh yes okay yes i don't think

Track 1: i can think of any films that took place during that period of time

Track 1: right let alone like you said any any real yeah i guess you said great depression

Track 1: but that often leaves out that entire story from it because it's usually not

Track 1: told from it's usually told from the white perspective absolutely yeah i think

Track 1: of like movies like um the the grapes of wrath there's not really any any uh

Track 1: any of that perspective within it for the most part.

Track 1: And so that like you, since you mentioned Perlene as one of the characters, I mean,

Track 1: I don't want to say we need to go through each individual one, although we could,

Track 1: but I think it's also important to note the context for Smoke and Stack who

Track 1: fought in World War I and now had then moved afterwards to Chicago to essentially

Track 1: work kind of in the, you know,

Track 1: the gangster business and, you know, maybe take both sides.

Track 1: And the context that you're kind of given is that they've stolen from

Track 1: both the italians and the irish and have now taken that money back to mississippi

Track 1: to essentially put it back into the community if you will i mean maybe you i

Track 1: don't know if you would put it say it that way because it does seem like they

Track 1: very much want to give something back and have something for their own albeit also like,

Track 1: turning a profit. And I don't know how you square that.

Track 1: And maybe also the theme that I was thinking about in that same vein is just

Track 1: kind of the idea of capitalism and maybe Black capitalism and some of these

Track 1: things that come into play and how you maybe perceive their motivation.

Track 2: I mean, so again, I think all of these characters, what's so beautiful about

Track 2: them and what's so beautiful about that first hour of the film is we're seeing

Track 2: all of these characters,

Track 2: they all want freedom and they all seem to find a different path that they think

Track 2: is going to get them to freedom.

Track 2: So for Smoke, you know, he says very clearly to Annie that money is power and

Track 2: that's what he thinks is freedom, you know, and Stack is, you know,

Track 2: all about, you know, the flashy business in the community and all of that.

Track 2: And so I think together, yeah, both of them had this idea.

Track 2: And I think it's still a very popular idea, you know, in the black community

Track 2: today that black entrepreneurship is going to save us.

Track 2: It's going to offer us freedom, you know, and we will be replicating the same

Track 2: systems because again, you can't really make that much of a profit unless there's

Track 2: some exploitation involved.

Track 2: You know, but if there some way that you can give back to the community,

Track 2: then maybe it's all square.

Track 2: So I think that they did have good intentions.

Track 2: And I think if you're operating under a capitalistic system,

Track 2: yeah, you think these are your only options.

Track 2: You don't want to be the beggar. You don't want to be the person who can't afford

Track 2: anything. You want to be the person that can give to charity when you feel like it.

Track 2: And what's the way to do that by making as much money as you can?

Track 2: And if you can make a black-owned business that services your community and

Track 2: provides a space of joy and freedom.

Track 2: You know, even if it's just for a couple of hours, then, hey,

Track 2: that sounds pretty great.

Track 2: So I do think that they had good intentions. But like Annie said,

Track 2: you know, that money comes with blood.

Track 2: And there's consequences for that.

Track 1: Absolutely and i think that that also makes me reminds

Track 1: me i think i briefly mentioned it because this takes place in

Track 1: clarksdale mississippi and i and they as they're

Track 1: doing their planning they kind of separate from each other the

Track 1: two brothers to kind of take on different errands if you will

Track 1: and one and a stack goes to the town to basically get all the ingredients and

Track 1: things he needs for his opening night and he goes directly to a chinese-owned

Track 1: business a couple bow and grace And you also see like a very short glimpse or

Track 1: a small glimpse of kind of what the town looked like.

Track 1: And I think you mentioned that, or maybe I mentioned to you before we recorded

Track 1: is kind of the, one of the ones that I noticed and that I kind of dug into very

Track 1: slightly was the Jewish storefront that's located there as a,

Track 1: as a Jewish person myself.

Track 1: And I was curious kind of how they fit in, but I think you mentioned that there

Track 1: were things that were left out of that scene.

Track 1: And I'm, now I'm curious what, what do you, what wasn't there?

Track 2: So i think um so also the

Track 2: tamale shop is also there yes yes you know

Track 2: and i i think all of that is wonderful i think for me what was left out wasn't

Track 2: necessarily on that strip it was in the club scene like what you know because

Track 2: you are tracing you know like i mentioned the evolution of blues music which

Track 2: queer black people were foundational to you know you're showing house music,

Track 2: which is also, you know, an offspring of the blues, you know,

Track 2: where are the queer people?

Track 2: I wanted to see black queer people voguing down.

Track 2: I wanted to see visible queer people in the space, whether it was in the past

Track 2: or whether it was, you know, in the future, like you had the twerkers,

Track 2: give me the Vogue girls, you know, like give me the, let the dolls Vogue down.

Track 2: Like I wanted to see that. Um, so I think that that's more so what I meant as

Track 2: far as, you know, the people who were missing.

Track 2: Um, but yeah, I mean, I think what it shows is that Ryan did a lot of research

Track 2: on what was going on in this time period.

Track 2: It's absolutely historically accurate that, um, there were a lot of Chinese

Track 2: immigrants in the Mississippi Delta.

Track 2: They were brought there because of, you know, the ending of slavery and needing,

Track 2: uh, cheap sources of labor.

Track 2: And because they wouldn't work in the fields and ended up opening these grocery

Track 2: stores, you know, that's how sharecropping, you know.

Track 2: Became even more and more of a necessity to an economy that ran on exploiting Black labor.

Track 2: And so, yeah, it was very interesting, you know, to have this community of people

Track 2: that had, you know, this Chinese couple that was a part of both communities.

Track 2: They sold on both sides of the

Track 2: street and they were able to do that on a foundation of anti-Blackness.

Track 2: You know, you have them on, uh, owning two businesses, smoke and stack wanted to own one business.

Track 2: And it took the clan like 24 hours to try to destroy that.

Track 2: Um, you know, and if it wasn't going to be the clan, you know,

Track 2: it wasn't the vampires and it wasn't the clan, then it probably would have been,

Track 2: you know, the gangsters from Chicago.

Track 2: Like this place was doomed from the beginning.

Track 2: Um, but yeah, I thought, you know, that was very interesting to show that you're

Track 2: trying to make a community of people, but when the foundation is anti-blackness,

Track 2: it becomes dangerous for black people to be in community with, you know,

Track 2: other races of people who benefit from anti-blackness.

Track 1: And you could even, well, tell me if this is off base, but you could almost

Track 1: argue that later on, once, you know, you mentioned the vampires,

Track 1: the, I forgot to kind of maybe add that context.

Track 1: I mean, most people probably have listened, have seen the film if they're listening,

Track 1: most likely, But there were two members of the KKK that were essentially looked

Track 1: like they were going to be sent to kill them.

Track 1: And it just so happens that the person who's played by Jack O'Connell Remick,

Track 1: an Irish vampire, you know, is being chased and goes into their home and kills them or turns them.

Track 1: And then it leads to them going to their juke joint later on.

Track 1: What was I going to... Oh, but I think I was going to mention is that the Chinese couple...

Track 1: In a way, sort of turns on them later on? I've heard a couple of different theories,

Track 1: whether you would say that they sort of turned on the community or if it was simply just a fear.

Track 1: I can see you're a...

Track 2: So here's my interpretation. And I will say that Ryan has come out to say that

Track 2: Grace should not be blamed.

Track 2: She was a part of the community. She was seen as family. And he included a Chinese

Track 2: couple, not just because he had done his research, but he had done his research

Track 2: because in his wife, Zinzi Kugler, who's also a producer of the film in her lineage,

Track 2: um, they discovered, you know, her Mississippi ancestors were black and Chinese.

Track 2: So he was trying to create this idea of like, we're all family,

Track 2: obviously, because we procreated together.

Track 2: And the reality is, you know, that's not always the case.

Track 2: And I think, uh, maybe he should have done some things a little bit differently

Track 2: if he didn't want, you know, the blame put on Grace in the way that it was.

Track 2: But I do think when you can, I think the enemy in this film is adjacency to whiteness.

Track 2: So you have Mary who, and it gets everybody killed essentially because she's,

Track 2: you know, this, she's passing for white.

Track 2: She has one eighth ancestry that's black. And so because of the one drop rule at that time.

Track 2: She would have been considered Black if people knew. She was married to a rich

Track 2: white man, so she was living her life as a white woman.

Track 2: And she thought she could go and talk to these vampires and that everything

Track 2: would be okay because she's white and her whiteness would protect her.

Track 2: In the same way, you have Grace, who's working both sides of the street.

Track 2: So, you know, again, I think if you're in a space of privilege and power because

Track 2: you aren't Black or you aren't as Black as somebody else, or you're not treated like Black people,

Track 2: then there's going to be room for trouble.

Track 2: So I think the issue when Mary attacks Stack and turns him into a vampire.

Track 2: They all think that he's just dead, that Mary has killed him.

Track 2: He's bled out in front of them. Everybody's really sad.

Track 2: And Grace is just like, we signed up for a party.

Track 2: She's telling her husband, like, pack that, wrap it up.

Track 2: Like, we have a daughter. We have a life. We didn't sign up to,

Track 2: you know, help Smoke deal with the grief of his brother being killed.

Track 2: Like, that's not our place. We got other stuff to do.

Track 2: And Bo, I think if Bo had been there by himself, he would have stayed because

Track 2: he did have a close, you know, relationship with Smoke that was his actual friend.

Track 2: I don't know if Grace is really friends with these people, honestly. Yeah.

Track 2: And so, you know, he's trying to, he's obviously closer to his wife than he

Track 2: is to smoke. So he's listening to her and saying, yeah, we should probably get

Track 2: out of here. There's danger afoot.

Track 2: And I don't know that that necessarily makes Grace a bad person or anything,

Track 2: but it does mean for the sake of this conversation that she's not,

Track 2: you know, that's not her, that's not her people.

Track 2: Like her people are at home. It's her daughter, you know, so she's trying to

Track 2: get home to her daughter. And if they were all really family,

Track 2: then her daughter would be the same as her brother Smoke or her brother Stack that was just killed.

Track 2: You know, we're all we're all family.

Track 2: But she has you know, she's got her hierarchy and that's fine.

Track 2: We all have our hierarchy.

Track 2: So the reality was she wasn't in that moment, you know, thinking of Smoke and

Track 2: Stack as family that need help during a period of grief.

Track 2: And Bo, you know, goes to his peril because he kind of agrees with her.

Track 2: Um, so and then when grace I think the biggest issue for me with grace Uh,

Track 2: and the lesson I think is that she asked to go outside She asked to go outside

Track 2: like three four times and you know, everybody stopped her They're trying to save her life.

Track 2: They're telling her she's in danger. They're telling her beau is probably safe

Track 2: You don't need to worry about him.

Track 2: You know, you need to stay inside where it's safe And they should just let her go honestly.

Track 2: I mean if she's wild she was she was showing signs of wilding out really early

Track 2: and they should have just let her go.

Track 2: But they said, no, we need to, we're all, we're all community.

Track 2: We're all family. We're all going to stick together. And it was to their peril too.

Track 2: So I do think there is a lesson to be learned that, you know, everybody can't come.

Track 2: If you can benefit from anti-blackness and you're not actively,

Track 2: you know, anti-racist, probably not safe. You're probably not safe.

Track 2: And both Grace and Mary got all the black people killed and i'm going to stand on that.

Track 1: No i think that's very reasonable and and speaking of

Track 1: since you mentioned sort of like the family angle the the one of the other

Track 1: characters we didn't talk about is sammy the preacher

Track 1: boy who's the son who's the um cousin of

Track 1: smoke and stack who is essentially brought there because

Track 1: he has a great talent at blues and

Track 1: playing guitar and they want him to be one of the you know

Track 1: like the axe who wanted to kind of let him you know be himself

Track 1: and kind of almost like a coming out party for him in a way as far as uh you

Track 1: know playing for the community and then on the complete like opposite side i

Track 1: know these are really related but then on the other side you have like remick

Track 1: this irish vampire who is hears him play and now wants to,

Track 1: take his music he you know uh uh the.

Track 1: Co-opt his, you know, his music from him. And it's sort of like these,

Track 1: you know, complete opposite things.

Track 1: That is what the, the Rebicus wants to enter the, the, uh, the mill and take

Track 1: their music, take their lives, have them become them and kind of,

Track 1: uh, you know, assimilate them into this, uh,

Track 1: white Irish vampire, you know, character.

Track 1: Whereas on the other side, you have Sammy who is being protected for his,

Track 1: you know, they don't want him to not just become a vampire, but they don't want

Track 1: to give away his gift, I think.

Track 1: And I mean, you wrote a lot about this in your, I think the second one, maybe both.

Track 2: Yeah. I mean, well, so Sammy actually is representative.

Track 2: Like, I definitely feel like he is, you know, a metaphor for Ryan talking about our history,

Track 2: our culture, our music, everything is wrapped up into Sammy,

Track 2: like a representation of what it means to be a Black American survivor in this world.

Track 2: It's all wrapped up in all of these things.

Track 2: He's our youth. He is our future.

Track 2: And so when Delroy Lindo's Delta Slim puts his arm out in front of Sammy when

Track 2: Remick is coming for him.

Track 2: He's like, you can't have him. And everybody's like, yeah, well,

Track 2: you, you got to go through all of us to get him.

Track 2: It is a representative like, this is our culture.

Track 2: These are our people. This is our story. Like you can't have it.

Track 2: There's not like, we're not going to give this up. You're going to have to kill us.

Track 2: And so, yeah, I thought that was, uh,

Track 2: very beautiful, very moving. I feel like I would have been more moved and I

Track 2: think it would have been even more powerful because Sammy is also the name of

Track 2: Ryan's great aunt who is married to his great uncle that inspired the film.

Track 2: And also Ryan has two twin aunts, which is where he got the idea of twins and

Track 2: what that duality and what that could mean in this story.

Track 2: So I feel like there were some places where it would have been really cool to

Track 2: have a Black woman represent these things and have the whole culture be like,

Track 2: no, we're protecting her.

Track 2: She's the symbol of all of the things in our culture.

Track 2: I think that would have been really cool, especially if it had been a queer person as well.

Track 2: I think all of his points would have hit so much harder. If Sammy were a butch lesbian,

Track 2: all of his, all of the points, like the points about sinners,

Track 2: uh, being ostracized from the church and, you know, having a father say,

Track 2: you need to put this down or you're going like, it just, everything would have

Track 2: hit so much harder for me.

Track 2: Um, if that had been the case, but yeah, I, I, I really did appreciate,

Track 2: you know, all the symbolism.

Track 2: I think all of the characters are kind of archetypes for, for something.

Track 2: And yeah, I think that's a sign of a, great writer, great thinker.

Track 1: Yeah, I mean, that goes back to the book you recommended, the Angela Davis book at the beginning.

Track 1: It sounds like there's lots of intersectional feminism that was maybe missed in this film.

Track 2: I think so.

Track 1: Or at least had a chance to add layers to it as opposed to it being well,

Track 1: I don't want to say it's completely male-centric because there are strong female

Track 1: characters in it, but maybe not to the same extent had there been.

Track 2: Yeah, no, this is a, like, I think the story is very clearly,

Track 2: you know, it's a, it's a, it's a patriarchal story.

Track 2: It's a, you know, it's a story about fathers.

Track 2: Whether it's the father of evil vampire, the master vampire,

Track 2: it's the church father, it's the evil father that beat the siblings, the twins.

Track 2: It is. It's a black male patriarchal story and women exist to help them out.

Track 2: And it doesn't mean that they're not strong people.

Track 2: I do think it is a sign of a man writing the story for sure,

Track 2: because I think that just often happens, you know, to the point that there's a whole term for,

Track 2: you know, called fridging, you know, when women are killed off so that the men can grow and all that.

Track 2: Like, I just think that there's a way that men can view women in real life that

Track 2: just pops up in stories where if you're raised to believe,

Track 2: especially in like a Christian church, that women are created from the ribs

Track 2: of men, like every man that's ever been born has been born through a woman.

Track 2: But the idea is we came from them.

Track 2: Actually, they gave birth to us through their rib. And so they're actually the

Track 2: creators of life and we are on the, to their side, you know,

Track 2: to help them out, their helpmates.

Track 2: So, yeah, Annie is going to put all of her energy, all of her hoodoo magic,

Track 2: all of her power into a mojo bag to protect smoke. She's not going to wear one.

Track 2: She's not going to wear one. Why would she? No, no, no. She doesn't need protecting.

Track 2: Only smoke needs. Smoke is the special person that needs protecting.

Track 2: And even the magic is not going to work, you know, on the baby.

Track 2: It's just a coincidence that the baby is also a girl. But anyway,

Track 2: it's neither here nor there.

Track 1: I was also just thinking, I don't think, you know, I mean, that's a good point.

Track 1: I don't even think that the film passes the Bechdel test. I don't think there's.

Track 2: No, no.

Track 1: I don't think two women really even have any major conversations at all.

Track 2: There's one. No, they don't. There's one scene after, you know,

Track 2: Smoke turns away Remick and the other vampires, and Mary and Annie look at each

Track 2: other for an extended period of time.

Track 2: That's as close as we're getting to two women, you know, having a conversation.

Track 2: It's completely, you know, nonverbal.

Track 2: So yeah, it absolutely does not pass the Bechdel test.

Track 2: You know, and then you have Pearlene also who, you know, her whole She dies

Track 2: because she's trying to protect Sammy,

Track 2: You know, and then when she gets bitten and he's trying to attend to her She's

Track 2: just like, no, no, go on You must make it to sunrise Because he's all that matters

Track 2: All that matters is, you know,

Track 2: I take it this way, you know, just because it fits into,

Track 2: if we didn't have so many other stories that were along the lines of sacrifice

Track 2: everybody so that the black man is the most important and, you know,

Track 2: then I probably wouldn't feel this way.

Track 2: But because it just kind of fits into that kind of patriarchal canon, that's how it felt to me.

Track 2: It felt like as long as Sammy makes it, then the community will live on.

Track 2: And, you know, Perlene will get a shout out on the name of his club.

Track 2: And so it's just as good as her being alive to sing her own songs because Sammy's

Track 2: going to carry that on for her.

Track 2: And, you know, so I don't know.

Track 2: Those are my only small, small, small complaints.

Track 1: Well, I saw also a theory. I'm curious. I don't remember if you waited.

Track 1: I saw a theory that Perlene was not actually married and that that was sort

Track 1: of like what she was telling people.

Track 1: I think the argument that I saw was why would she have been out alone on the town? But I don't know.

Track 2: Her husband was old. I think it was very common for, you know,

Track 2: young girls to be married off to much older people.

Track 2: She obviously was not, you know, in love with her husband.

Track 2: You know, it seemed like the experience of pleasure sexually with Sammy was a new thing for her.

Track 2: So, yeah, I don't think she was lying about.

Track 2: I mean, I don't I saw that, too.

Track 2: But I mean, I don't think just because she wasn't wearing a ring.

Track 2: I think Smoke and Annie are married. I don't think they were wearing rings.

Track 1: No, they weren't. They weren't wearing rings.

Track 2: I just don't think that was a thing that, you know, people could afford or was

Track 2: all that significant at that time period for this group of black people.

Track 2: But, yeah, I think she was probably married. I mean, I think the point also,

Track 2: too, is like they're sinners.

Track 2: So, you know, and that's the other thing, too. Like it did just feel very straight.

Track 2: It felt very, it felt very hetero that like the biggest scandal was oral sex

Track 2: and adultery and blues music.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: Through the Sins, but you know.

Track 1: Yeah, that's, that's, that's another thing too, is that it's,

Track 1: it's kind of, you're kind of see that.

Track 1: And so the opening scene is kind of like one of the last scenes kind of opens

Track 1: up with kind of like the end and then it kind of takes you back to the day before.

Track 1: And the way that you're kind of meant to see it is that Sammy has committed

Track 1: these ultimate sins, that he's a sinful person.

Track 1: And is it simply because, well, to your point before, you said that if it had

Track 1: been a woman or a queer character, that would have been such a more stronger point to being a sin.

Track 1: Whereas him playing music, to me, doesn't feel like...

Track 1: Enough of a sin? I don't know.

Track 2: But it's not wrong. So I think in 2025, it would have hit a thousand times harder

Track 2: for me if those changes had been made.

Track 2: At that time period, I mean, it's literally called the devil's music.

Track 2: There is this true story about a man, Robert Johnson, who was a blues singer,

Track 2: or he wanted to be, he was very bad at it.

Track 2: And then he all of a sudden comes back and he's able to sing and play the guitar.

Track 2: And an astronomical change had happened when people described as overnight,

Track 2: that he had these abilities.

Track 2: And so there was this huge legend that he met the devil at the crossroads,

Track 2: the devil tuned his guitar, and he sold his soul. And that's why he ended up

Track 2: dying because the devil came to collect his due and he died at 27,

Track 2: very tragically in weird circumstances.

Track 2: And that became a legend that is still known today.

Track 2: And blues music is called the devil's music. Like that, that was all real.

Track 2: And the, but again, I think that's another one of those layers.

Track 2: Um, I think Jedediah, the pastor father had a different, had a deeper layer

Track 2: to why he wanted his son to stay away from music.

Track 2: Um, because that guitar, as we learn at the end is, uh, Elijah and Elias's dad's guitar.

Track 2: And he was known as an evil man. And so he's thinking, you know,

Track 2: this is a path you're going to go down to Most musicians wind up like Delta

Track 2: Slim, you know, alcoholics using alcohol to cope with everything that they're going through.

Track 2: And, you know, so I think there were some layers there to that for Jedediah

Track 2: specifically about why he didn't want his son there and the relationship that

Track 2: he must have had with his brother as well if he knew he was evil and accepted that.

Track 2: But I think the other thing is in the church.

Track 2: Pastors were upset because patrons would go to the juke joints on Saturday night.

Track 2: They'd spend all their money.

Track 2: And so they'd have no money on Sunday to put it. So it's capitalism.

Track 1: In the collection plate.

Track 2: Yes. They didn't have money for the collection plate and the pastors were upset

Track 2: and they demonized this thing as look what you're putting above God.

Track 2: This is demonic. This is devilish. And so it came attached to the entire genre

Track 2: of music and the entire experience of going to these juke joints.

Track 2: And so there was this element to there. And I think capitalism is a huge villain.

Track 2: I mean, it's the villain, actually, in this movie.

Track 2: I mean, you know, white supremacist capitalism specifically is the villain in

Track 2: this movie because literally everybody who takes the white man's gold in this

Track 2: movie gets turned into a vampire. Every single person.

Track 2: That is the first entry point into that.

Track 2: And it's Smoke standing at the door of his juke joint, knowing that they're in need of money,

Track 2: knowing that all of the sharecroppers can't even support the business that they

Track 2: want to come and support because they're paying with wooden nickels because

Track 2: they're not getting paid real money on these plantations.

Track 2: They're getting paid in plantation money so that they get stuck in the sharecropping

Track 2: world and can never get out of it.

Track 2: So even Smoke, knowing all this and knowing that they're underwater,

Track 2: that they're going to be out of money in two months, he still says no to this gold.

Track 2: And that's what ultimately saves him.

Track 2: And so everybody, I think, who, you know, is against using this money in this

Track 2: way survives the night at least.

Track 1: Yeah. Yeah. It felt very significant to use gold too, rather than it could have

Track 1: just been, you know, American money, you know, but it was very specifically

Track 1: that it was like this very weird thing.

Track 1: And you also mentioned like the idea of the like the devil's music and that

Track 1: it's very clear that you have that through line to to to Remick as this Irish vampire who,

Track 1: you know, is an incarnation of, you know, the devil himself or from,

Track 1: you know, in a in a similar way and

Track 1: he's come to take the music you know

Track 1: from sammy or in you know you mentioned robert johnson and lots of also lots

Track 1: robert johnson had some of his music stolen you know by people like bob dylan

Track 1: and there are other black musicians from the early 20th century who had their

Track 1: music ripped off by you know elvis was a a big oh like the number one maybe perpetrator of this.

Track 1: And so you have all of those things. And it's, it's, I think I hadn't considered

Track 1: the idea of like the devil and Robert Johnson and sort of how,

Track 1: you know, he could almost, he wanted to take,

Track 1: Sammy, not just as like his body, but, you know, to take his music and then, you know, re.

Track 2: He wanted to own it because that's the other thing, too.

Track 2: If if, you know, and we see this at the end, we see the juxtaposition of Remick and Stack.

Track 2: Both of these people are missing their who are now gone on to be ancestors.

Track 2: Stack is missing his brother. He's missing that last day where he saw the sun.

Track 2: He's missing you know all the the which he

Track 2: also considers the best day of his life as sammy does and

Track 2: stack asked sammy to play the guitar

Track 2: for him so that he could remember and he

Track 2: does he doesn't get to you know there's no veil piercing

Track 2: because he's dead and he doesn't have access to his ancestors anymore now that

Track 2: he's dead and his soul is trapped here but he remembers he can remember that

Track 2: day it's so beautiful it's so vivid in his mind that's when we get all those

Track 2: beautiful flashbacks of them making the juke joint that we never actually got to see.

Track 2: We get to see Smoke smiling with Annie, which we never got to see in the actual,

Track 2: you know, occurrence of events as it was happening.

Track 2: And it's not the same, but it is something.

Track 2: And Remick could have just asked Sammy to play for him. He could have just asked

Track 2: him, but he didn't want to remember.

Track 2: He didn't want to connect.

Track 2: He wanted to own, he wanted to possess.

Track 2: And that was the, like, that is colonialism. It's like, you know,

Track 2: you go to Hawaii and you see, and it's so beautiful. And you're just like,

Track 2: man, this is just wonderful.

Track 2: This is amazing. What a great experience.

Track 2: No, I have to own that. I need to stick my flag here.

Track 2: And I also need to kill everybody that's here so that I can continue to own this.

Track 2: Like, it's just a completely different worldview, which is, you know,

Track 2: ironic because, again, he is Irish.

Track 2: He did have this experience himself. The English came to him and did the exact

Track 2: same thing to him, forced their religion, forced their language.

Track 2: Forced their way onto the Irish people, colonized them as well.

Track 2: And it just goes to show that being a victim of colonization,

Track 2: being a victim of oppression does not prohibit you from becoming the thing that

Track 2: you were victimized for.

Track 2: So I think it was brilliant to make Remick this, to make him Irish and to give

Track 2: him that ancestry and be able to actually say it in the film.

Track 2: Yes, this also happened to me too.

Track 2: And it's not like, yeah, we're the same. We're trauma bonding here.

Track 2: Like, no, that's, you know, it's emotional mimicry for sure. He's using this to try to.

Track 2: Manipulate sammy but for the audience it's like an okay i see what you're doing

Track 2: ryan like i see where we're going.

Track 1: I think even on top of that that kind of like

Track 1: adds another layer is that the person who was

Track 1: hunting remick and then when he

Track 1: gets refuge by letting being let inside of the

Track 1: other family's house is the choctaw vampire is

Track 1: a sorry the choctaw tribe which are you know the indigenous community

Track 1: so it's almost like a you know

Track 1: you were saying like this double layer like the irish were

Track 1: colonized and then remick is doing the exact

Track 1: same thing and then the person who's actually trying to stop this cycle is actually

Track 1: the indigenous people of you know of what's now america so it's i really appreciate

Track 1: that added piece to it and i saw a lot of people saying like i wish there was

Track 1: a sequel i wish there was this and that like the only thing that i would love to though,

Track 1: is the story of simply the Choctaw, you know, community more than anything.

Track 1: Cause that could be, you could have no one else in the film.

Track 1: It could just be like this other store. I don't know.

Track 2: That just, I mean, I definitely think that Ryan should executive produce and let some,

Track 2: writers write that story for sure. I mean, I think that would be really great.

Track 2: I'd be happy to see that. But I also really liked the fact that they peaced

Track 2: out when the sun went down, it was like, well, we tried.

Track 2: See you tomorrow if you're still here.

Track 1: Yeah, they, well, in a way they're like, we know how this is going to go and

Track 1: they all, they, I don't know, do they notice that the couple inside are clan

Track 1: members or do they, is it clear that they see it?

Track 2: Yes.

Track 1: They do, they see it through the door, right?

Track 2: Yeah, he can see it through the door, but also I think that they were able to

Track 2: find Remick in that house because of the three big vultures that are flying over the house.

Track 2: House and they actually end up landing to let them know. And that's why the

Track 2: guy's like, hey, the sun's going down.

Track 2: There's three vultures inside one way or the other, you know,

Track 2: whether it's clan or vampires, we got to get out of here.

Track 2: And, you know, yeah. So they still they they tried to they tried to warn her.

Track 2: She did not she did not want to listen. And so he said, and God be with you and I'm out of here.

Track 1: That's that's where my i saw the biggest like connection

Track 1: i mentioned at the top like the book ring shot which is told

Track 1: at that period of time or a similar period of time but with you

Track 1: know the the kkk members are these they're not

Track 1: necessarily vampires they're more of a monster i

Track 1: guess you could say in then uh than a vampire but i guess at the same time like

Track 1: what's the difference they're still there they are a type of you know the fact

Track 1: that they turn several members of the kkk to become vampires to then prey on

Track 1: the same people is kind of also one of those perfect metaphors that just,

Track 1: it hits perfectly.

Track 2: It is the white liberal metaphor. Honestly, it is.

Track 2: No, we, we want a fellowship and

Track 2: love. Like, it's like, do we want to burn crosses and murder everybody?

Track 2: Or do we want to present this image of like softer, gentler,

Track 2: you know, colonization? Like that's, I thought that was really brilliant.

Track 2: Like we really do see the, uh, the two sides of, of oppression there and that

Track 2: both of these things lead to death, you know,

Track 2: but one of them is going to try and be nicer about it, you know,

Track 2: or at least, you know, make you make you feel a little bit better about about going down their way.

Track 1: But it's almost worse because you're now you're like undead or you're in this

Track 1: like you mentioned, like the soul is not able to be released.

Track 1: It's almost like a more horrible end,

Track 1: like at least in the other case, I don't want to say like, at least you're dead you can

Track 1: be you know remembered you you're you know your loved ones can

Track 1: visit you or you know like we saw when smoke goes to visit his the baby like

Track 1: in this case you're now trapped forever until you get staked or you know i guess

Track 1: uh you know you walk out into the sun walk out into the sun yeah which is uh i.

Track 2: Think ryan is making that point i i do think that you know soul death,

Track 2: you know, is, and there's a

Track 2: lot, I mean, there's a lot of people who are walking around, you know, um,

Track 2: the UN ambassador, uh, under Biden, who's raising her hands,

Track 2: uh, against genocide, uh, against, um, the ceasefire, um, soul dead,

Track 2: Kamala Harris, soul dead, Barack Obama, soul dead.

Track 2: Like, I feel like there's a lot of people in prominent positions who have accepted

Track 2: this idea of kinder, gentler,

Track 2: let-me-get-ahead Black capitalism as freedom and liberation who will come to

Track 2: find or understand at some point, hopefully they will come to understand that this was a soul death.

Track 2: There is a different way that they could have gone down and that choosing to

Track 2: align with oppressive forces is not going to bring you liberation and it's not

Track 2: going to bring you peace and it shouldn't um.

Track 1: Yeah we.

Track 2: See that you know we see that with stack and mary at the end that he you know

Track 2: they don't have peace they're still alive but stack says the best day of his

Track 2: life was the last day that he saw the sun you know so.

Track 1: He's just he's living but he's not really like living you

Track 1: know i don't know like quote in quotation marks or something and this

Track 1: maybe it's like slightly off not exactly this

Track 1: but one of the things that i thought was in i think it was the first

Track 1: piece you wrote the on your sub stack was kind of the idea of like the danger

Track 1: of the cookout invite oh yeah and this remind this this kind of conversation

Track 1: kind of reminds me of it because of the you know this kind of this liberal kind

Track 1: of version and these different you know um sort of uh you know,

Track 1: Well, I'll let you describe, let's describe that part and kind of,

Track 1: you know, maybe how that fits here too.

Track 2: Well, I mean, I think we see like, you know, when Remic is outside and he's

Track 2: singing picked old Robin clean, like it's very scary and creepy and not good.

Track 2: Even when they're singing the soft, you know, ballad as Mary's being kind of

Track 2: drawn in, it's still a little bit creepy, you know, like their harmonies are

Track 2: nice and it's a, it feels like it's, there's something underneath here that's not great.

Track 2: But when Remick turns all the black people that come outside the club,

Track 2: you know, and they start singing.

Track 1: Is it the Rocky Road to Dublin?

Track 2: Yes, on the Rocky Road to Dublin. When he is out there and he's singing the

Track 2: Rocky Road to Dublin, they are jamming.

Track 2: I mean, like, it's there's a chorus.

Track 2: There is rhythm. It's like gospel choir behind him.

Track 2: You know, they're ad-libbing. um you know there's this

Track 2: whole really really just disturbing scene of

Track 2: him in the middle and all of the black people just like anointing

Track 2: him like we do in church and it's just oh very very disturbing but that's literally

Track 2: what's happening you know he's siphoning all of their you know gifts and talents

Track 2: and everything and the music becomes more lit like there is something to and

Track 2: you know there is a long history and i think ryan talks about this a lot too

Track 2: he's a huge fan of irish music Like,

Track 2: he knows all the Irish folk songs and all of that, you know, that culture.

Track 2: And I think a lot of Black people do. A lot of Black people enjoy Riverdance.

Track 2: Like, there's a lot of commonality between, you know, Irish people and Black

Track 2: people in America, like, and the stuff that we've experienced.

Track 2: And so, yeah, when we get together, it is a party.

Track 2: It is super lit. It's great, you know. But again, if it requires,

Track 2: like I think about Ludwig Gorenson, who is the Swedish man, who is the white

Track 2: Swedish man that composed this film, composed all of Ryan's films.

Track 2: It kind of feels like that, you know, it's all great and wonderful when you've

Track 2: got, you know, the legendary Baba Mal teaching you and introducing you to all

Track 2: of these African sounds when you're working on the Wakanda,

Track 2: the Black Panther score.

Track 2: Because I don't think he did Wakanda Forever, actually.

Track 1: No, I don't think he did.

Track 2: Yeah. No, I think he did. He did do Wakanda Forever. He didn't do Creed 3,

Track 2: but he did the original Creed.

Track 2: And Ryan didn't direct Creed 3, so that's probably why he didn't do it.

Track 2: But when he's working on the Black Panther score, and he's got Baba Mal teaching

Track 2: him all this stuff, and he's going all around Africa, and he's learning from

Track 2: all these different musicians, and she's sucking up their sounds.

Track 2: You know, who was on the Academy Award stage with him accepting the award for best score?

Track 2: It was him by himself. That award says Ludwig Goranson. It doesn't say Baba

Track 2: Mal. It doesn't say any of these other people.

Track 2: And I think that's where the cookout starts to get tricky.

Track 2: It gets tricky because, again, you invite everybody to the cookout.

Track 2: And then who gets to write the book about cookouts.

Track 2: You know, it's who gets to profit from that culture.

Track 2: You know, there's even this book about the history of Black people making the

Track 2: blues called The Devil's Music that was written by a white man.

Track 2: I mean, it's just like there it's it's everywhere. It just it really is everywhere.

Track 2: And so I think when you have an anti-Black society, when you have an anti-Black

Track 2: world, it is very difficult to have a cultural exchange.

Track 2: You know, like you hear so many stories about indigenous people in this country,

Track 2: you know, and elsewhere who were inviting of the stranger, because that was

Track 2: our culture to be inviting strangers in to,

Track 2: you know, be welcoming, you know, to teach, you know, you had the Moors over

Track 2: in Europe who went over there and taught people how to bathe and,

Track 2: you know, have good hygiene practices. And like, what happens?

Track 2: What happens is oppression, murder, theft, you know, you have all of these,

Track 2: you know, great philosophers and mathematicians and all of these things and

Track 2: people in history that we now know, we know their names.

Track 2: And they went over to Africa and stole their information and came back like

Track 2: it was brand new. So in a world that's built on capital, that was largely built

Track 2: that way by Europeans, you know.

Track 2: It just, it means that every, there's a scarcity mindset.

Track 2: It's just different. It's, it's just, it's a different worldview.

Track 2: If you have a mindset of scarcity, then, you know, everything has to cost and

Track 2: there, there will never be enough.

Track 2: And so you have to own this thing because, you know, it'll run out otherwise,

Track 2: and then you'll never have it again.

Track 2: And so I'm, it's, it's just a completely different worldview.

Track 2: Like you look at so many indigenous cultures and it's, it's so giving.

Track 2: It's so community oriented.

Track 2: It's all like you sharing resources because we have an abundance.

Track 2: There's on this planet, enough resources literally right now for every,

Track 2: in the city of Los Angeles, where we have a huge, you know, disproportionate unhoused population.

Track 2: We have the most empty houses, you know, the most empty apartment.

Track 2: I mean, entire condominiums that are sitting empty as people are living on the

Track 2: street and being criminalized for being homeless.

Track 2: It's just, it's a worldview issue that has created capitalism and this idea

Track 2: that we can't all have everything that somebody has to have the most.

Track 2: And, you know, it has to be me. It can't, it can't be if I don't want to be

Track 2: down there with everybody else.

Track 2: So I just, you know, have to have to take and it's just, I don't know. It's very sad.

Track 1: Well, and it seems like it very much, All of those themes, I think,

Track 1: are very well created and crafted into the narrative.

Track 1: And as we've talked about this whole time, I think what makes the film,

Track 1: I think, so rich and so worthy of watching it, you know, multiple times and

Track 1: seeing all those things is that there's lots of different layers to it.

Track 1: And it wasn't just a like, oh, I'm just going to make this cool vampire movie.

Track 1: Like, no, it's far more than that.

Track 1: Like, there is very, as you've mentioned, like the research and his family history

Track 1: and all these things. It's not just like a movie that got slapped down,

Track 1: you know, from like Disney, like some kind of Disney, you know,

Track 1: slop or something like that.

Track 1: It has all of this, um, richness to it.

Track 2: And I think that honestly is what's so beautiful about this movie and what it

Track 2: shows, you know, in that juke joint scene when you have the music that brings the ancestors back.

Track 2: This movie is a conjuring. Like, I feel like so drawn to and I keep going back.

Track 2: Like, I felt compelled and I really have not felt this way since probably Moonlight.

Track 2: Moonlight was the last time that I had to go to the movie. I saw Moonlight 10

Track 2: times in the theater, nine times in its original run, and one time in February

Track 2: this past year when they put it back in IMAX for one day.

Track 2: And so I like this. It's a conjuring, not just for us to go,

Track 2: you know, you spend our money to go see this movie.

Track 2: But I think specifically for him, he's talked about,

Track 2: you know, if the music that his great uncle was playing was conjuring his past

Track 2: and he would play the music his great uncle loved to conjure his great uncle

Track 2: once his great uncle passed,

Track 2: then this movie too is an opportunity to bring him back to life so that he could say a proper goodbye.

Track 2: You know, you have Buddy Guy, legendary blues singer at the end playing Sammy

Track 2: in his 80s, and you have Stack who just, you know, reaches over and gives Sammy a hug.

Track 2: And Ryan has talked about breaking down in tears because he didn't understand.

Track 2: That was a, you know, an improv moment from Michael B. Jordan to just give him a hug in that moment.

Track 2: And, you know, Ryan was like, oh, I never got to say goodbye to my great uncle.

Track 2: And this is doing that. so to

Track 2: me this is just like the best of what art

Track 2: can do it can bring people back to you it can you know help them live on forever

Track 2: and which is that's the blues it it brings people back to you it helps them

Track 2: live on um and it helps you get through another day and chart a path forward

Track 2: so it's uh very powerful and.

Track 1: It reminds me just we didn't mention it but just as i think as like another

Track 1: moment of both improv and like a very beautiful moment is when Delta Slim, played by Delroy Lindo,

Track 1: an incredible performance, is then they're in the car and he has that little

Track 1: moment where he starts to tap the side of the car and wasn't originally in the

Track 1: script and he sort of had to beg, you know, him to keep it in, which they did, and it,

Track 1: it's it's such a beautiful moment and like that's a moment where that that whole

Track 1: scene and the story that he tells of his friend getting you know lynched um

Track 1: just trying to get out with some money and it's yeah it's um it's all all those

Track 1: like little tiny stories are all these are just i think what adds to that like richness too it's.

Track 2: When you have a team that you trust like with the actors that he selected to

Track 2: to do this and you have somebody that like delroy linda who's literally putting

Track 2: into the smallest 30 seconds,

Track 2: just showing you how blues is created.

Track 2: It came straight out of the cotton fields. It came straight out of Black trauma.

Track 2: And you put it into that holler, that wail that he's having as he's remembering

Track 2: his friend being lynched and castrated in this horrific way for absolutely no

Track 2: reason other than anti-Black racism.

Track 2: And he's wailing about that. And he turns that into a song.

Track 2: You can't co-opt that. I mean, you can imitate it. You can, you know,

Track 2: do your impression. But this is what it like.

Track 2: This is what it comes from. So that's really brilliant, too.

Track 2: And then I just saw today, the editor of the film was talking about how at the

Track 2: beginning of the film, this wasn't the original beginning, you know,

Track 2: wasn't supposed to be a bunch of jump scares between, you know, the pastor.

Track 2: Sammy's father doing his hand movements and Remick doing, you know,

Track 2: a flashback, PTSD flashbacks.

Track 2: And then we get all these jump scares of this vampire and like what's going on and all that.

Track 2: And so that came about because, you know, the editor saw the similarities between

Track 2: the hand movements that the pastor is making and the hand movements that Remick was making.

Track 2: It's telling the same story that both of these, you know, white.

Track 2: And violent institutions are trying to co-op Sammy and tell him what to do with

Track 2: his gift and own that gift.

Track 2: And so the editors making this connection is also adding to the horror because

Track 2: you're getting those jump scares really early.

Track 2: But also just being able to see that whole through line. You have a team like that.

Track 1: That's crazy.

Track 2: You really can't lose. You really can't lose. So, yeah, everybody's bringing

Track 2: their A game and just get a work of art.

Track 1: Yeah, from from top to bottom, the cast to the direction to the score,

Track 1: the cinematography, you know, it's just it's, you know, it's really it's it's

Track 1: the first one I think I've seen multiple times in the theater and I can't remember how long.

Track 1: And just because you're like, oh, well, I want to see another film or,

Track 1: you know, you just you're not going to go, whatever it is.

Track 1: So all of those all of those things. So if you got to this point in the podcast

Track 1: and you hadn't seen it already, or you only seen it once, you, you know, it's coming.

Track 1: You should go see it again. Or, you know, a couple more times,

Track 1: bring a friend, you know, actually I'll tell the story.

Track 1: I might cut this out, but I was at, I was out, um, on the yesterday or no, on Sunday.

Track 1: And I overheard a conversation of three sort of like 40 year old white men trying

Track 1: to convince one of them to go see Sinners.

Track 1: And he's like, no, it's not a sci-fi movie. and then

Track 1: they're like asking like oh what's a sci-fi movie and he says oh it has

Track 1: to have like flying cars or aliens and like but it has vampires and

Track 1: he's like well i don't think i want to see it and he's listing off the entire

Track 1: all the films that kugler had directed he's like well maybe i'll go see it with

Track 1: you and i i don't know for some reason i just found it sort of a i don't know

Track 1: what it was about that happening that i just thought like go see it like what's

Track 1: what's the what's the problem.

Track 2: I will say I was in a conversation against my will with an Israeli and then

Track 2: Australian white woman, a friend of mine at the time.

Track 2: And they were talking about, you know, going to see sinners.

Track 2: And, you know, they know they knew I had seen it a bunch of times and I'd written

Track 2: about it and we were all talking about it.

Track 2: And the Israeli woman is like, you know, I just can't understand how you could

Track 2: just oppress people just based on their skin color. And I was just like,

Track 2: she's trolling me. She has to be trolling me.

Track 2: And so eventually she did pull me into a conversation, which,

Track 2: again, I'm at a private club out here in L.A.

Track 2: All these white people are around. I'm not, you know, even wanting to be in

Track 2: a conversation like this. But, you know, if you say something untrue around

Track 2: me, I just got to speak up.

Track 2: So she's talking about how people say that Israel is an apartheid nation and

Track 2: she just knows that's not true.

Track 2: And I was like, well, actually, and I've been there and this is what I saw.

Track 2: And so, of course, she gets really upset.

Track 2: And she knows that I had a Palestinian tour guide who was an Israeli citizen,

Track 2: but Palestinian person.

Track 2: Ethnicity and nationality, and, you know, was able to take us back and forth

Track 2: across through the border walls there into the West Bank.

Track 2: I'm telling her everything that I saw. She's getting very, very, very upset.

Track 2: And she's saying, like, you know, well, you only heard one side of them story.

Track 2: You didn't even hear the other side. I feel like I hear the other side of the story all the time.

Track 2: But please, when you go see Sinners, don't walk out of that movie saying you

Track 2: didn't get to hear the perspective of the Klan.

Track 2: Somebody's going to be mad. So just, you know.

Track 1: Yeah, well, Well, it's, well, that's, that's all, I mean, I,

Track 1: I, I have to almost, I can't, having that conversation just makes me like,

Track 1: I can feel like my blood pressure rising of having to be in that situation would

Track 1: be, uh, it was very unpleasant.

Track 1: But I think about it too, like this person who is like having their friends

Track 1: tell them to see it, like I almost, in a way, I almost want to be like,

Track 1: maybe you shouldn't see it.

Track 1: Like, I don't think you're actually going to probably enjoy it if your mindset

Track 1: going into it is probably steeped in like, oh, it's a black director.

Track 1: It's about, you know, black people and it's a black movie, so I'm not going to see it.

Track 1: I think that that's probably and and i

Track 1: what's interesting is this is maybe the last thing to

Track 1: ask this is sort of like the i don't

Track 1: like the discourse around this movie and like some of the articles that

Track 1: were written kind of trying to downplay the success of the film and do you think

Track 1: that the like the success of the movie was like in spite of people not wanting

Track 1: to see it because of for like perhaps racial reasons that this is like a you

Track 1: know i'm quotes black movie and so people didn't want to see it because of that,

Track 1: and yet it still succeeded beyond?

Track 2: I think we have statistically, you know, proven that Black art travels, you know.

Track 2: People want, you know, I was just in Cape Town, South Africa,

Track 2: and literally every Uber that I was in was playing Black music from different

Track 2: genres, from different time periods.

Track 2: I mean, like, We're all over the place Our music, our stories Specifically black

Track 2: American stories And that's largely because of American imperialism Which is its own The.

Track 2: Horrible thing. But a part of that comes with, you know, people having access

Track 2: to a version of a public Black American culture that has been extremely successful.

Track 2: You know, the McKinley Corporation, their consulting firm,

Track 2: they did studies on this that was released last year,

Track 2: that film studios leave $10 billion on the table every single year by not having

Track 2: Black American stories told on their slates.

Track 2: That is just a factual thing. This is not some DEI consulting firm.

Track 2: This is as white bread as you could possibly be conservative policy center that's

Track 2: coming out with this saying, hey, you're leaving a whole lot of money on the table.

Track 2: So it literally is, that's why, you know, in a lot of leftist spaces,

Track 2: when there's this conversation about, you know, it's just, it's class, it's not race.

Track 2: We're intersecting here because it specifically is when you can leave $10 billion

Track 2: on the table, because you would rather not make $10 billion than to have Black

Track 2: people telling their own stories.

Track 2: You know, that is a very intentional thing.

Track 2: Yeah, you can look at what was written about Quentin Tarantino's Once Upon a

Track 2: Time in Hollywood in 2019, which had the same exact budget as Ryan Coogler's

Track 2: movie Sinners in 2024 had when they were going into production.

Track 2: And Ryan's movie did better. It did substantially better in its first weekend.

Track 2: It won number one, whereas Quentin Tarantino's movie came in second place to

Track 2: like some animated movie that I can't even think of right now.

Track 2: But I mean, I'm just like the cultural impact, everything.

Track 2: It was just, it's been a chasm of difference. And it has not,

Track 2: they still wanted to downplay that success.

Track 2: And I think, yeah, it's absolutely,

Track 2: specifically anti-Black racism is the reason for that, because they were very

Track 2: afraid of what his deal would mean, even though his deal is the exact same deal

Track 2: that Quentin Tarantino had for the exact same budget of a movie,

Track 2: where he would own the rights in a couple decades,

Track 2: where he would have final cut.

Track 2: Where he would have first dollar gross. It's scary when a black man does it, apparently.

Track 1: That's all it is. Yeah, that was the next thing I was going to say.

Track 1: It's not... Quentin Tarantino can do it, but it can't be, you know, someone who's not...

Track 2: It's not going to destroy the system when Quentin Tarantino does it.

Track 2: Oh, he obviously has earned that.

Track 2: Ryan Coogler has more than... I mean, he's got $2 billion in box office.

Track 1: I was going to say, he's probably outgrossed Quentin Tarantino by like...

Track 2: It's not even close. It's not even close.

Track 2: So, you know, I definitely think, too, with the fact that he shot this on both

Track 2: IMAX and on 65 millimeter film, you know, he needs to be in the conversation

Track 2: of auteurs at this point.

Track 1: Um, a hundred percent.

Track 2: You know, you know, cause he's got both, he's got the commercial success,

Track 2: he's got the artistic success and it's scary.

Track 2: It's scary when black people do stuff like this, but you know, so that's all it is.

Track 1: No. And I, I, I, I can't wait to see, I know that the rumors is that he said

Track 1: he wants to make a X files thing,

Track 1: you know, I mean, I'm just excited to see what else he's going to do,

Track 1: whether it'd be also perhaps

Track 1: producing i think you mentioned before like producing other stories other black

Track 1: stories so all these things i hope the hope the success of this is not just

Track 1: isolated and it actually leads to other films other productions other artists

Track 1: get to be recognized other actors so all those things.

Track 2: I hope it's all original. I don't, they're like, oh, he's got to do X-Men now

Track 2: because he was talking about how much X-Men influenced.

Track 2: I don't want to see another Marvel movie. I'm fully honest.

Track 2: I think that if he, I think perhaps if he had had more liberty away from the

Track 2: MCU, Black Panther would have been a different story and Wakanda Forever would

Track 2: have been different stories.

Track 2: I think because of the fact that it fits into this military industrial complex

Track 2: of movies coming out of Marvel and Disney,

Track 2: that he had to do some things that were pretty blatantly not cool,

Track 2: especially for a black man from Oakland.

Track 2: Why is the CIA in Wakanda?

Track 2: Why is that happening?

Track 1: I don't want to say he had to pay his due, but in some ways,

Track 1: I feel like he almost had to prove himself in this MCU universe.

Track 1: And I think now he's shown that I can make an original story from my own personal

Track 1: life from history and turn it into a- And it's his best one. Yeah. Yeah.

Track 2: But I think that's a lesson for everybody too. You know, Ryan locked in on his own personal ancestry.

Track 2: There's a lot of people who have made their entire careers cosplaying as other

Track 2: people from completely different cultures and, you know, or telling stories

Track 2: about other people that's not them. And you can do that and that's fine.

Track 2: There's something that unlocks when you

Track 2: get into your ancestor when you get into your ancestral

Track 2: bag when you dig back into your own history and

Track 2: bring something like there's just a it's a different level of of power and connection

Track 2: and community that you are are tapping into and it's just gonna be a thousand

Track 2: times better than anything anything else like but.

Track 1: Yeah but brooke uh really appreciate you coming on and uh talking about,

Track 1: sinners i think i've been uh you know looking forward to this and thank you

Track 1: so much for uh for coming on thanks.

Track 2: For having me.

Track 1: Of course and uh and people and also i haven't read it yet because i'll link

Track 1: to your thing but you had written a bunch about the about andor too which i

Track 1: haven't read yet and i need to read that i.

Track 2: Haven't written so i'm.

Track 1: Doing my.

Track 2: Deep dot yeah it's coming out tonight.

Track 1: So i'm i.

Track 2: Need to to i just wrote a little you know you need to watch this show.

Track 1: So I do a weekly wrap-up kind of thing.

Track 1: I was afraid that it might have already mentioned the three,

Track 1: the last three episodes. I probably won't get to watch them tonight.

Track 2: No, that's what I'm saying. I'm not, no spoilers. I had to sign a waiver from Disney.

Track 2: There's no spoilers here. So that piece will go live tomorrow.

Track 1: Got it. Okay.

Track 2: Ish.

Track 1: Yeah. I'm going to try hard to, I'm going to, because it comes out at 9 p.m.

Track 1: Eastern when the last three episodes, and it will be late to watch all three,

Track 1: but I don't know how I'm going to start the first one and not watch all three.

Track 1: So that's my favorite show on TV. So I have to watch it.

Track 2: It's worth it. You should get screeners. You have a podcast.

Track 1: I get screeners for some films, but I didn't get them for this.

Track 2: I had to ask.

Track 1: Oh, maybe I should.

Track 2: No, I was notified in March, but I hadn't been keeping up with the show.

Track 2: So I just never was like, yes, give me the screeners.

Track 2: And then I got bullied into watching it over the weekend.

Track 2: And so I was like, can you please give me the screeners? And they did.

Track 2: And I just binged it all and Rogue One and everything this past weekend.

Track 1: Yeah, I've already watched the first season a couple times. I did a few episodes on the first season.

Track 1: But yeah, we don't need to get into Andor. That's a whole other...

Track 1: We can spend a whole other hours on that. That's like the best show. But Brooke...

Track 2: It's so good.

Track 1: I know. Anyone should listen to or check out your substack about Sinners and

Track 1: other films and other media and your website.

Track 1: And Brooke, thanks again for being here.

Track 2: Thanks for having me.

Track 1: Of course. And you've been listening to Left of the Projector,

Track 1: and we will catch you next time.