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Last Updated: September 2, 2024

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170: "I wanted something different. But I didn't really know what, and you don't really know until you find it." Gary Redman's Deliberate Approach to Military Transition - Part 1 of 2

Jen Amos invites her guest co-host, Scott R. Tucker, for a two-part interview with former colleague, Gary Redman. They catch up on his transition journey since they first connected over a year ago. Gary shares that he took a deliberate 4-year approach to his transition, rather than the typical 12-24-month planning advice.

Gary reflects on his unorthodox approach to transition by cold messaging people on LinkedIn to learn about different careers, getting a real estate license, to now working part-time for a startup in Los Angeles. In closing the first part of this interview, he expresses how much he values autonomy and personal growth in future roles, and he touches on support from home as a key to taking career risks.

This episode is also available on YouTube: https://youtu.be/0gmzqsRhVPw

Connect with Gary Redman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-redman-b66aa23a/

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Scott R. Tucker 0:00

cast. Hi, welcome back to the holding down the fort podcast with today's main host. I'm Scott Tucker, along with your regular co host, my beautiful wife, Jen Amos. How you doing, Jen?

Jen Amos 0:16

Hi, I'm really excited for you to take the reins for today. Because the majority of the season I'm usually the CO or the main host or leading as the co host. So you and Gary go go back. So I'm just excited to listen in and ask questions when I have them. But you know, the the show is yours today. Yeah, we're so don't mess it up.

Scott R. Tucker 0:39

No, that's the good thing about editing, right? Especially with this new AI tools. We can basically just, you don't know this. You can now have AI. Record your voice and you can type into it sounds a little crazy. It sounds crazy. But no, we're actually going back about a year, year and a half, almost two years to kind of rehash a little, a little mini show that Gary and I did. So first. Let's welcome our guest. Gary Redmond coming to us from downtown LA apparently are you dry after Hurricane the hurricane you guys had out there. And that

Speaker 1 1:14

Scott R. Tucker 1:38

All right, well, good to hear. California didn't have to suffer too much. Considering all that. So, you know, we know Gen Z grew up in California. That's where we met. So we it's a special place in our heart. And we wouldn't want to see I

Jen Amos 1:50

do want to make a comment about it. Because one of my friends text me about Joshua Tree and how it was going to be shut down because of the flash floods and all the things and and you know, living in the east coast for the last handful of years. I'm just like, you know, I'm kind of it's kind of it kind of makes me laugh to hear this stuff happening. And and again, I'm coming from Cali, having lived there for 20 years and like knowing what real weather is like now on the East Coast. Like when I hear stuff like this, I'm like, You guys are gonna be fine.

Scott R. Tucker 2:17

Well, I mean, we joke about that, too. I'm from Ohio, the Midwest, we went to school in New York. I mean, Gary went to school Colorado, and then you hear about the you've probably had classmates from Florida, and it's like, we had an inch of rain, we shut down school for a week and, you know, coming out of your environment. You know, it's a caveat a little bit into today's discussion, is you do something that, you know, we're, we kind of wear on our sleeves a little bit about being in the military, hey, we can adapt and overcome. And we can we're actually really good at that. Yet, when it comes to getting out of the military, we tend to follow orders and say, well, the Navy is supposed to tell me how to get out of the military, the Navy is supposed to show me my job. But the Army's supposed to hook me up with how I'm doing the right. They're not doing a good enough job. For me, they need to work on their military transition assistance programs. And of course, they've done that for the last 20 years. And then more nonprofits have come. And in yet you always hear the same horror stories. It's not even horror stories, it's guys who got out got a job, and then usually say, well, it could have been better it could have done this way. And in what doesn't happen very often is someone said, saying to themselves, maybe I maybe I shouldn't have followed that process at all. Maybe it wasn't the military's job to get me a job as a military job to assign me to a duty to help with our nation's wars. But we know what we signed up for we know what we're getting out at some point. So when Gary maybe you can just go back and rehash kind of how you found out about us and how you reached out. And then we got to, we can kind of talk about where we got started on and rehash a few things. And then we can hear about what you're up to now what that's really led to, but no real agenda, just you know, wanted to start, you know, getting your thoughts on a from the perspective of someone who's just like, yeah, maybe we'll go through some of those programs. Obviously, it's good information. But you're clearly putting yourself out there to go find your own path. So we're excited to hear about it.

Speaker 1 4:21

Scott R. Tucker 8:20

always think about it, or at least when we're talking about, you know, we're us about wealth. We're a financial based company. And that's when I stumbled into and I got out of the military, and I was trying to find my path. But ultimately, once I realized, okay, I'm in this realm of entrepreneurship. And I honestly don't even like using that word, because it seems so grandiose. It's just, it's just self employment, or it's just controlling the source of your income. So whether I'm starting a business, I'm washing someone's car, or I'm trying to get hired by a corporation. Aren't I working for myself? Aren't I trying to contract out my services? For a fee, you know, to some extent, so when I started thinking, so that's reminds me a little bit of my own journey. When I when I was getting out of the military join financial services, I thought I had a job. It took me many, many years to realize I was just a salesman. And then I said, Okay, I don't feel comfortable being a salesman. So I told myself, I didn't want to do that. And that was the wrong approach. I think anybody getting out of the military, the first thing they need to learn is sales. Because that's just that's just communication. You're going to use it to sell yourself. How are you getting a job? You're selling yourself? So again, as I started thinking of myself, as an individual business, or just an individual income producing entity, I, at first, I thought, well, I could go to all these different conferences and events and learn all these new skill sets and then you get wowed by some other entrepreneur. or who's selling you their stuff. So you're hiring things, or you're buying software. And it took me many, just many, many years to finally recognize that one, I need to just do this myself, I need to learn all the skills, every skill that could possibly be useful to be a self employed business owner. That's how to do websites. It's how to make videos, it's how to, you know, what kind of equipment do you need? I gotta take courses on Oh, I do gotta learn sales. Well, that's really just communication and persuasion. Oh, they didn't teach us this at West Point how to be a better communicator, persuasion, it's, it's odd. So I just recognize that and I call it a talent stack. I'm just continuing to build various skills. And you know, they'll come up when they come up. And so what have you noticed? In it, because what you ended up doing is you're helping out a start up, like you said, and that is, you know, basically just kind of a wild environment. In any case, even if it's a successful start, I mean, there's startups like ours that are just, you know, kind of winging it. But but then there's ones that are actual, they're, they're established businesses, they're called startups for a reason, because they're not, there's a risk, there seems like there's more risk that's gonna go away. But since you did do so many different programs, and I've heard so many good things, Tuck School people love that say, it's amazing, I'm sure the Stanford thing that's a big name. Good for you. But are you noticing any particular little skills that you're having to develop and utilize quicker than you're getting by sitting in a sort of classroom environment? If that's how those are even?

I think the thing that that I have gotten most out of all those programs is I've been tapped into all of those networks, right? Like the network people. People really say there and everybody's like, Oh, you got a network, you got a network. And I'm, I kind of hate that term. I like more of like building relationship like right with us. Like it's not, it's not a one time deal. Like we have built a relationship over the past two years and do the same thing with any of these things. Like the best thing I got out of the tuck. Next step is Dartmouth does a Dartmouth Entrepreneurship Network meet up here in LA. So everybody that went to Dartmouth and somehow fashion, I tapped into that network, and I will use the same thing from the Stanford Ignite of like, I just, I want to be part of all of these networks. And that's really what, you know, somebody who made the cliche, I don't know who who came up with this line, but like, your network is your net worth. And I was like, it

was me. I made it up. Now. Just kidding. I say it a lot. But like,

it's absolute, like, and I didn't, I was like, Well, what the hell does that really mean? Like, and now like, I get it? Because, you know, I look at a lot of people, like, there's a lot of people here in LA that, you know, whether they've been laid off it in Amazon, at Google and at some of these places, and they're like, Hey, man, like, can you help me find a job? Can you help me do some of these things and like, I have a sliding scale of networks. Like, it's not just one network, I'm man, I can hop in and out of different networks, but that makes me confident, you know, at whatever job it is, it makes me more confident person that I know that I'm going to be alright, whether I can stand up for what I believe in. Because it's like, if you tell me to kick rocks one day, then I'm gonna go to my other network, and I'm gonna find another job there. And I think that's what people fear the most about the military and where you just become a kind of a bobble head or a Yes, man of like, they that's the only network they know. And they're going to, and that is just an anchor to them. So they're not, they're not willing to fight for what they really believe in, or they're not willing to stand up for the right things. Because they're scared, they're going to be shown the door in some form, or fashion, meaning shown the door of like, Hey, I'm not going to promote or I'm not going to make my boss happy when when in reality, like, it really just leads to an unhealthy relationship within the organization.

Yeah, so really, what I'm hearing is we can go to these groups, and they're going to have lots of briefings and programs and how to do it. But it's what I what's what I always say. Everybody thinks just having a veteran label on you is some sort of hookup and unfortunately, the majority of Americans think that can go good and bad ways. Because a lot of times people have a, I've had a bad experience with a veteran. And so they're going to Label Label it that way. We heard from one of our friends who was working for a defense defense contractor, and showed some displeasure with how they're being used in this organization. And the boss told him was like, You know what, we don't want to hire any more Oh, fives and sixes because you guys always tell us what to do. It's like, what that's what you hired us for because we were connected to the defense industry. And so now his skill of being networked, you know, in tight to the military community is just seems limited in so many ways that his value is appreciation. Probably the mountain he's getting paid probably was and proper. And so while yeah, these groups are about military transition that you're networking to your it's it seems different, you're smartly. You know, these organizations are going to probably be tied in to all sorts of corporations that aren't military related, and maybe even startups, how did you find this group that you're working with now, it tells a little bit more about about that whole setup.

It's a crazy path. And I'm glad I'm, you know, again, it leads back to my cold outreach on LinkedIn, I reached out to an academy classmate of mine who had gotten out of the air force from LA Air Force Base back in 2012. And he had started a cannabis company in Santa Monica. And so like he was in the startup tech space out here, had sold that looking for his next thing. And really, he does a lot of consulting on the time, like SEO type roles and things like that help other startups and he, he kind of led me on to a partner at TechStars, a venture capital firm here in LA, I had a meeting with one of the partners on Zoom, he said, hey, you've sent me your resume, they shot it out on Slack. In two founders got back to me, and with interest in my background, and I literally started having coffee, I would drive down to LA and have coffee with this founder, once a month or so. And we would stay in touch until it got to that point. But again, we built a relationship. It wasn't like, Hey, here's my resume, like, you know, and my resume wasn't even perfect. And that's the funny thing, too, is like, we spend so much time on these things that are irrelevant, like people, people are like, oh, man, I gotta go to this resume prep class, or I gotta do this to get this perfect. Or I've got to write 20 different versions of that no man screw that, like, just build a relationship with the people and go from there. Like, I'm not like a resume is important in the right setting. But like, it's not everything. And I promise you like, Oh, I'll get a job. And I won't even need a resume to do that. So it's important to have that in line and LinkedIn line. Perfect. But like, it's not again, it's not everything. It's consistent, like, self consistent, like pressure, talking to people, keeping those relationships warm. You know, calling them every two to three months. And I still do a lot of that as well, too, is like keeping a lot of those relationships warm.

Yeah, you hit me up every once in a while. And I'm like, hey, it's scary. Yeah,

I think you talk about all these, all of these transitional courses, like, tuck next step, even Stanford tonight, it's all gonna be a firehose of information. But I spend more time like on the soft skills and trying to figure out like, Okay, where's the network? Valuable, like work and I have, like this strategic advantage, and, and, and build within their network of people. Like, I'm already thinking, like, I know, I know, some people to do Stanford entrepreneurship and DC, and they have networks out here and events out here. So there's already like, figuring out how to work my way into those organizations to like, add value. And at the end of day, it's really add value, like I can't, and you got to be humble about it, too. It's like, Man, I'm not like, the problem is, I see, again, my level two, a family of six level, a lot of guys think they're an expert's at things. And, and that's the unfortunate thing about the military, I feel like from a leadership standpoint is there is a false sense of security that you know, all these things. And because you have the rank on the shoulder, you do these things. So like you leave the organization, and you're like, Well, I'm owed this amount of money, and I should, I should have this job and no man, like, no one, like, just to your point, like, people care that you're a veteran, but like, if you want the job and the big salary and the title at some point, like you're gonna have to hustle like you can go back into the government and get a title and feel good about yourself and make a certain amount of money, but that's where it's gonna plateau. But if you if you really want it, you got to be humble and be willing to hustle and do some of those things. And I work like nights, I drive de la on my own time on my own dime to do these things. And to potentially put myself in a in a, in a good opportunity. But like, surprisingly, most people are just not willing to do it. And that's, that's what it comes down to. Like that's the key like people are just not they like it. It sounds like a great idea. Like, oh, man, that's awesome. I wish I could do this. I wish I could do that. And then they just don't do it. So

yeah, it's you know it in that's why it works. That's what I always tell people is the reason why posting on LinkedIn or even doing direct outreach or doing doing some sort of podcast, right writing a blog book. It works because nobody else would do it. Yeah. And so you'll you'll stand out easily, just as someone who's willing to think outside the box a little bit. We can pause. Sorry, no worries, we can edit this. So it sounds

like I gotta send a fit. Yeah, sorry. I'll get it like two minutes. Is he doing it right now? Okay, I'll say no, I'll get it. I'll get it.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I got five minutes. I gotta put in a food order real quick from a lunch. It's awesome. me like, Is that Is that alright? Like, you

know, yeah, take a minute. It's cool. I forgot what time it was there.

Yeah, like 1126. Yeah, we

can actually pause I'm gonna pause the recording to. Yeah, well, we'll probably have a whole other episode about, about dieting, but or lifestyle choices is probably a better way to put it. But anyway, yeah, go ahead and jump back in here. Scott, I don't remember. The last thing you said.

I should I had it. And but

well, I yeah, I think we're just talking about the importance of building relationships. And I really like how, you know, you stay in touch with people, like every three months or so I am curious to know, Gary, like, Do you have a system for that? Or? Or is it just like something that just, it's just top of mind for you to like, think of people every day and reach out, especially if you haven't spoken to them in a while?

Yeah, I mean, I should really start a process and a spreadsheet for that, because that's kind of what I do at this job is, is that tell reach out to people a lot of time, I really just like scan through my LinkedIn messages and see, like, who haven't talked to you in a while, and then I'll, I'll reach out to people via that, or, you know, and there's a lot of people I meet that do a really good job of, of reaching back out to me. So it's, so it kind of it kind of helps out there. Actually, same way. Like, I mean, there's a guy that I talked to you that has an executive recruiting company in San Francisco, like we've never even met, we have a zoom call about every two months, and I'm headed up there, like next month, and we're gonna, we're gonna try to at least meet for the first time, but like, you know, it's people like that, that, you know, once once you get into a mutually beneficial relationship with with someone that's willing to stay in contact and have the meetings with you, like, it's, it's great. And then at some point, like, you never know, and that's the thing, like, you never know where it's gonna go. It's not always about like, everybody, everybody that goes through a lot of these transition courses, I watched them. I observed them a lot. And they're all showing up with with an objective, they're all showing up with like, and that's the problem. I feel like a lot of times, like I see a lot of real estate agents do this is like, they're doing it full time. And right now, a lot of them are starving. And it's like they show up and objective. And it's too salesy, and it's like, too pushy. But a lot of guys going through the transition courses kind of the same way to is like, there's an objective, like they need, they just need a job. They're just, they're just, you know, trying to get to the end and figure out this whole process. And it's there, you can see the desperation a little bit. Whereas, like, I just had the benefit of sitting back and just looking at the big picture of things of me like, Okay, well, where, where do I fit in this place? Or where do I fit in this role? And then try to build the best relationships I can within within that group or organization? And I think, yeah, it's paid off. Well, yeah,

I want I want to add, I just wanted to share my thoughts. And I really liked this deliberate transition that you've done, where it's, you're recognizing that there's no magic bullet, there's no magic pill, it's really a combination of all your efforts, you know, like what you're doing online, the effort you do to drive up to LA to grab coffee with people on your own dime, you know, all of this, all these little things that you do outside of, you know, the nine to five or outside while you're still serving to build, build your community, build your network, like however we call it, and, and like you said, I do, I do like that phrase, like your network, your network is your net worth. And clearly, you know, it's showing for you and I also like how, you know, you weren't expecting one thing to fix it all like this, this, this took years in the making, you know, you're talking about years of this transformation. And I think that's a good story to share is that, you know, this is not a quick this is not like a you know, quick fix. This is not like a sudden transformation. Like it's it really is a process, it's a journey. And even now, even now, like you are still on that journey, it's not like you quote unquote, made it you know, you are still pursuing that journey, which I think is life anyway. But the fact that you are so hands on and involved and, and and all that I think is amazing, and is a good example to our listeners.

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about as you've been going through this process, and you give yourself more runway than most, giving yourself a bigger network more opportunities. And when I even made a video about this on our on our platform, I call it decision stress that most military retirees that I run into, it's just, I got to all of a sudden, I have to make my own decisions on a whole bunch of things. Some of them are military benefits related, do I seek this or not? Do I get out at this date or not? Do we stay in, then we got to find the jobs and figure out what we want to do then adds a lot of stress. And then I have another video where I say the solution to this is what I call compounding curiosity. And I just think you're one of the best examples of that because you literally I mean, started from cold DMing people on LinkedIn. A lot of people will do that. But they'll only do it like I want to talk to somebody at Boeing because I'm and work at Boeing. So I mean, just email everybody at Boeing. And I'm guessing you were messaging probably military related people. But all outside the box. I mean, you found found me at some point. So in, in what that? Is it compounding curiosity, I think is instead of going after a goal, like you said, These guys always have an objective, I gotta sell this house, I gotta get this job, I've got to make this decision, I got to tell my spouse what we're doing, rather, by just being curious at all right? It's literally, I don't know what I don't know, which is one of the things I hear most often from military retirees. But then they're not willing to go seek it. Whatever it is, they don't know, I remember I told myself, Scott, I don't know what you're searching for. But you have permission to go find it. And that was when I was I was 32 at the time, because I didn't do a full career. And so I just want to kind of commend you on that and, and recognize that what you're doing is rather than chasing goals, you're building systems, systems that will just compound will eventually lead to some sort of success. Maybe you stumbled on a couple of things that you don't like, which you already kind of did, and but you still have that one, you have a license in real estate, you know how to do it. So you just for your own good? Like, what does it what does it help you to know about how the real estate industry works from the other side of things, and then being open minded enough to go to a startup environment. And you probably talked to a couple other retirees who went the traditional route again, we're not saying that's wrong or anything, you get some good jobs working for the defense contractors. But as you've talked to other people who've gone that route, and compared it to what you're doing now exploring the startup, or maybe some other guys that are that are going through transition with you. They gotta be asking, Okay, what are you doing? What's that, like over in that kind of company, instead of you know, Booz Allen or, or Raytheon or whatever, those conversations coming up at all, anything you want to share? From that perspective?

It does. And I mean, I'll be honest, like a couple of people I talked to are envious of it. But again, it's it's there is risk there like Right, like what you know, you feel like you need that paycheck like the Boeing's the Raytheon's, it's a warm blanket, it's a good paycheck, and it's consistent. But if you haven't built those other networks outside of that, like you can't take a risk at a startup. And then, you know, fear getting laid off, right? Like, okay, like, let's say, for example, I go full time for this company next year, I'm not going to stop network, I'm not going to stop doing these things. Because, like the merry go round might in one day, and I have to hop to something else. But like you, you can't take risks like that when you jump into like a singular path.

To that isn't Isn't it always all a risk? Like? Because we just talked, we were talking to Mike Wallace yesterday, and he said, Hey, we've had graduates got hired by the big, big companies. You mentioned that yourself, your bet Amazon people laying out like they're all gonna do layoffs. Yeah, no matter how big the company is, it's the new guys gonna get laid off. So I always say, expect to get fired from your first job after the military or expect to want to move on to something better when you find it. Don't close yourself off to it. So maybe the startup environment isn't as risky. Because what do they have in you do, you're going out and representing a company affirm to other people, you're networking, you're continuing network, and you're doing it for the company with obviously that's going to pay dividends. Versus if you get hired at a traditional corporation, you're going to spend six months onboarding in a special class where you're learning new SOPs and stuff and which aren't gonna be useful if you get laid off in next month. Versus you're making your own SOPs

fact. I mean, there's goods and others to that, like you have to be comfortable working autonomously. But the other thing I look at too, when I look at my next full time role is like, I want something that gives me the opportunity for personal growth while I'm doing that job, right, I'm not stuck in, like, I'm not stuck in eight hour meetings with just full bureaucracy where nothing gets done, I can if I'm not, if I'm not actively in a role, or doing a meeting that had some sort of substance, I can go on my own and do some other things for personal development, which then leads into like, me being overall more successful. So I think like it's not even a work life balance flexibility is what I'm looking for is like flexibility within the time I make work 12 hours during the day but like, I'm I'm using my time more efficiently then I wouldn't be if I was at a Boeing or even in the Navy, or, or whatever I was doing. I can I can I can control that on some levels, like Yeah, it's more risky. But overall, it's going to give you more options. If you use it wisely. Right. Again, that's the other thing like most people aren't going to use that time wisely. If given the opportunity to act autonomously,

right on. Hey, Gary, let's go back a little bit to when we first started chat and I'm just curious if you would mind sharing, like What was your perspective when you first stumbled into us and what we were doing? And kind of why you want to reach out and the kind of how we got started doing our version of networking, because I'm always like, hey, well, rather than just having a monthly zoom call, you know, to catch up, let's do a show, you know, did were you expecting that?

I don't know if that was expecting it. But it was, again, I knew I wanted something different. I was nervous about it. I'd never done anything like that. But I realized, like, once we started it, I was I was comfortable. And I liked it. I liked being able. And I was like, at some point, I knew there was some message that I wanted to share. And I wanted to, to kind of document this journey. And I think we're now getting the point where like, Yes, this is the beginning of like, I can be comfortable and say some of this stuff is successful. And I can tell people kind of how to do it, where at that point, like, I didn't even know what I was, you know, I had zero clue and what I was doing, but like, the confidence that that you had in this product, and you didn't even have like, you didn't even at that point, like I feel like it wasn't even a describe process. It was like, Okay, well, like this is how this is how you did it, it seems successful, I'm going to try to do it this way. And it wasn't even a process, it was just like, I'm gonna do it this way. It's somewhat in an image of the way you did it. And that's, that's really kind of what I did. And like, I think the real fire is like you said it a lot of times about jobs. And then bureaucracy is adult daycare, right, like, so I would go to conferences, and I would see that TV is like people are just like, you know, they get so wrapped around about their big title or like how they would go, you know, they would just sit in these meetings, or whatever they were doing their day was all planned out for him because they couldn't plan out their own day. And that's really what it comes down to is like, hey, I want to get, you know, a lot of people find themselves in these roles where they're just like, Man, I just want to get a paycheck, because I can't accurately plan my day to make money. Like, right, somebody's got to pay me to make money. And then they're going to plan a day and fill my day full of meetings and all this other stuff to make me feel important. That's what it comes down to. So and I think that's, that's really what entrepreneurship to me is if you want to use that term of like, I can plan my day and I can make my own money. Like that's that's it like that's, that's really what it comes down to.

All right, amen. Well, awesome, Gary, I appreciate you coming on and checking up with us. I mean, the cool thing is we can keep, we can keep doing versions of this, you know, as our version of, you know, getting back into things now that we've kind of gotten our thing together, because we first started chat, and we were still testing out our ideas, which is essentially became, you know, our US fat wealth program, you know, starting a war chest as an alternative to Survivor Benefit Plan. Jen, any other thoughts or questions you want to ask? Before we let go? Yeah,

yeah. Yeah, you know, Gary, I'm very appreciative of catching up with you and getting an update on your journey. So thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. And I wanted to ask you, what does it look like at home? Because, you know, very often when we have these kinds of conversations with say, let's say, with military retirees, and there, we often hear, like, that the reason why they have to jump into their first job and post military is to provide for the family, which is obviously, you know, a very respectable, important thing to do. And so I'm curious, like, how has your how's it been, like, you know, with with your spouse, and, and what has that support look like for you to go on this journey of, you know, transformation into who you want to be and post military?

Yeah, you know, I mean, I, I think I was blessed from the get go of when I met my wife, like, she was a financial advisor for Merrill Lynch, and still to this day, so we planned our life early to do things and kind of set us up. And I really, I mean, honestly, I bought my first piece of real estate in 2005. And I still have that today. And it was, it was, it was a great investment. So I've done some of these things earlier to set a seven guys we like my wife is behind like, she gets it like she's behind the sport I have I have two little kids at home, but like, and all this stuff is deliberate. And I don't you know, I don't leave the house unless I know it's going to, it's going to benefit us in the long run. It's either making me money, or it's, you know, it's building that network. But like, Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, there's, and I try to keep it focused until, like, if I'm not traveling for a conference or something like that, like, I'll focus on networking events Tuesday through Thursday. And after that, like, you know, the family time is there. So, but those are the three nights that I focus on kind of going to those events, but like they're totally on board. And yes, we absolutely need a paycheck. But like it's not, there's not this urgency about that. We know what's going to work out. We just don't know which way it's gonna go. I mean, that there's a little stress there, but it's it's definitely going to work out.

Yeah, and especially because your wife is a financial advisor and she has that she's financially savvy. So I think that's often often what we tend to find is, you know, the spouse will just leave it to the retiree to make the financial decisions not all the time. I'm just saying it's what we tend to come across and even even In a workshop that Scott and I recently did, where the spouses were there, you know, there was one or two of them that were like, hey, whatever you want to do, honey, you know, so it's just great to hear, you know what the type of relationship you have with your spouse and her professional background, and how you two have been making these calculated steps very early on. So I think that's really incredible. I think

like, but you hit on a point, like the success is based on the two together, because I would not be able to do this on my wife, where I'm most, most spouses wouldn't be like, hey, yeah, I'm cool with you. Same with two kids on a Tuesday evening, while I go to a networking event in LA, that, like at night, but like, she also understands the process and the value in that, and most wouldn't mean and most would not, you know, be comfortable with their spouse, leaving two little kids at home to go do something that may not produce any instantaneous. And I think that's, I mean, that's been very, I've been very blessed in that, in that sense of like, we both understand what what it what it's going to do in the long run.

Yeah, I think that's one of the limitations that we see. And I was actually gonna allude to it a minute ago, when you were describing the situation, I call it the pain of mediocrity, is until until the retiree or the veteran, you know, myself included, until I recognized that, oh, these people are just kind of spinning in circles just trying to justify their existence for their paycheck. You know, and that's, you know, who they gotta lay off. Yeah, it's in, you know, we see all these tick tock videos, my day at LinkedIn, you my day, it's like, holy cow, is this what's really going on? And we know what the defense industry is really like, yeah, there's probably some work going on. But sometimes, you know, it's, it's depends on the contracts coming in, or what war is going on at the time. So the ability to kind of, you know, explore and recognize that in to recognize there's no ceiling. I guess that's what I mean by that, by discovering the pain of mediocrity is just my way of putting like, don't just do what we had to do in the military. Oh, that guy got promoted before me. Ah, shucks, I should have had that, you know, we all we all got the same bullet points, because we're just in a system at that point. There's no, there is no sense. There's only your system. Yep. In the private world. And so I think knowing that, what you were talking about, hey, I'm expecting a paycheck. What does it have to come every month? If you what if the paycheck come comes once every two years, but 10 times? As much money? Yeah. Is that okay? Yeah. Well, for a lot of people, no, just don't either have the financial position, a war chest, as I like to say, read our new book. Don't forget your war chest. Because if you do have a war chest, you give part of that is having the pension. Yeah, it's not enough to retire on yet. You still gotta get a job. But it's a buffer, as long as you're not needing every dollar at retirement. So I know you've you position yourself, you know, well, for that, but what would you say to people who are just like, I want to, I just need to get that paycheck. I want to get paid what I'm worth two to $200,000 a year. It's like, you can maybe you can add another zero to that. Yeah, it takes a few years. But why aren't we aiming for that, and accepting that that's possible?

I just because it takes work, it takes a lot more. It's not a nine to five, it's a it's a 12 to 14 hour day, and people look at that, but I'll promise you, like, you'll have more fun doing that than you do. I see a lot of guys doing the nine to five and it is more draining on them than then the guys working 12 hours a day for something deliberate that they want. And I just like I cannot, I will not go back to doing something I want to do. And why not? Well, and that's it. But like, that is the goal. I mean, knock on wood, and I needed a job. And that happens. But like, the goal is like, I will not go back to just doing a job to get a paycheck.

Let's see that. I think that's like, that's our safety net. We know, we could always get a job. You know, but we live in America and the Americas, supposedly known as a land of opportunity. And that's what we're doing. We're taking these opportunities, we're taking these chances on ourselves. And yeah, you know, should anything happen, we could always fall back on a job. And, and also, like, I just I also just want to recognize that. All right, I think it's really, I think it's great that you and your wife communicate really well. And I want to know what you would like to say to let's say, you know, other couples who maybe it's maybe it's not as easy like I don't I don't always think, Scott that military retirees want to be mediocre. I don't think that's the case. I think it's usually a family decision. And, you know, the spouse needs to feel a sense of security, or whatever. Like there's there needs to be that sense of security given you know, young kids or what have you. Yeah, and that is why, you know, some of them do A lot of them do end up doing the nine to five. But is there anything you want to? Is there anything you want to say to let's say those couples, you know, maybe maybe the retiree, maybe the veteran wants to kind of take the path less taken, what would you say to them and how you would how they can communicate with each other to take those chances.

I think it's just important like, Hey, I get it. Like there's people have different people have different goals that have different values. Like there's a reason people take the 95. And there's nothing wrong with that, right? Like that may be like, there is a reason that people do things. But there's also a reason like, but also see a lot of people are unhappy doing that, and they want a different path. So like, there's no right or wrong, Everybody takes their own path. But if you want the most, you know, but I also see people that want larger paychecks and want to make more money, and they're like, Well, I just don't know how to do it. I'm just stuck in this route. I think it's more of you just have to be on the same page and, and walk through most of the process together and just talk about it like Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. And I think once you kind of figure out where you're going and what you want, like that's, that's an easy one. But most people just, I think they don't figure out that they just need the paycheck, because it's like, that's how much I need to survive to live. And it's there's no real goal there. It's not like, hey, I want to pay off the house in 10 years, right? This is where I see things go on. And I don't think people talk like that or think like, because they really haven't been like, they're just waiting on that next set of orders like, wow, well, the military is gonna tell me where to go. So that all that is like muscle memory and muscle movements that have never been exercised within the relationship for the most part. So have your own plan, outside of what the organization has for you. And like, people that know me, like, I've always went against the grain for the most part. So it's worked out and I've made oh, five in the Navy, but like, part of it just can't teach it. Wanted to go against the grain. That's why everybody's not doing it. So and that's fine. But there has to be some, some talk of these goals before they're like, because most people look at it like well, 12 months out well, Where's where's the military sending me and so like, they haven't been practicing these muscle memories. And that's like, like, it's interesting to me, though, like, as long as you guys have been doing this pot and like, as long as I've been talking to you, and you've been talking to military members to different organizations, like how many people truly like getting people to buy into things and to actually do it like jump in wholeheartedly. There's a lot of people say you want to do entrepreneurship have their own business, but like, Man, when it comes down to it, people are like, No way, that's just too much work. And I think going back to that, like they just aren't willing to. But I promise, I mean, you can tell them all day long, it's better and it's a better path of life. But they still,

it really is. It's hard. And it's worth it. Like, you know, I mean, the the lifestyle that Scott and I get to live, you know, yes. Do we know what our paychecks what our payments gonna look like, next month? No, but like, we are, we are fully autonomous, and we get to live the lifestyle we want. And we worked really hard for it. But that's the key thing, right? It's like being diligent, like that word that you use at the very beginning and being intentional. And, you know, planting those seeds and your social network. Even if you don't know if it's gonna blossom into something, it's, it's really a lot of stepping into the unknown. I like to say it's like stepping into faith every day. And and seeing what comes up that later on. But for people who want that instant gratification, that stability, that routine, yes, the nine to five is definitely perfect for perfect for you. And then for everyone else that wants more autonomy. You know, this is what it looks like. This is what it looks like to be autonomous. And it's not perfect. We it's not like we made our final destination. But there is I'd like to believe that there's more joy and purpose and fun in the life that we're living. Yeah.

I think people don't realize there's more hard work and autonomy than having a nine to five. Like, yeah, and people were like, Oh, I'm going to have more flexibility that time. I'm like, Well, maybe, I mean, maybe you choose these times when you have to sprint and you're not even if you have autonomy doesn't mean I'm going to make all the kids soccer games, or I'm going to get to do all the things with the kids that I want to do. That doesn't substitute the nine to five, it just means I get a choice. And that means more to me than Yeah.

Yeah, cuz I lost my train of thought what I was about to say, but anyways, no, that's a great point on you know, be able to control your time your sources of income. Oh, I know. I was gonna say, but you didn't just jump. You didn't just jump into it. You're doing it in your free time. You're doing it systematically bite sizes a little bit here a little bit there. Hey, now I got kind of a big project going on this, you know what you're doing now might lead to something bigger. But what I'd say is in some ways, you could end up at a nine to five at a startup you know as in an entrepreneur role, but you're still working, you know, particular hours because you're with a group of people that got to show up at the same time. felt like that's gonna happen too. I just I think the the coolest thing about your story is that you found a smaller business opportunity, you know, whether it's self employment or working for a startup, like I encourage more retirees to seek those opportunities out because they're not going to a lot of small businesses aren't on LinkedIn with obvious job postings, because, hey, it's only three people, you know, but they would love to have your help and have a competent person who's willing to just say, you know, no, I don't know anything about what you guys do, or this skill set. But you know, I didn't know how to fly a plane before I joined the military either like, Okay, we'll learn it. It's not that crazy. Like, that's, I always joke that the pilots that we talked to don't want to be on LinkedIn, there's too many buttons depresses like, what you guys looked at all, you know, you flew a plane with all these gauges and stuff. So you know, just congratulations on doing that. And I encourage others to kind of follow that path. Because that's small businesses. We need we need you. You out there.

Understand. I mean, you know, I mean, thank you guys, for what you do back in Virginia Beach. I mean, because there's a lot like I mean, you look at a mosquito Joe guy was another an app. Forget that. Yeah. Um, well, I've talked to him a couple of times. Right. Yeah, there's a lot of people there that are, you know, again, promoting small business but again, it you know, it takes a little bit of risk and, and a lot of hard work to make it happen. But I think you talk to any of those guys, and they're gonna make Yep, this is this was definitely a better choice for me than going the other route.

Right on. Well, awesome, Gary. Well, I will let you let you get out to the beautiful day in LA. I'm sure that sounds great. Thanks for joining us, man. And we will look forward to keep catching up here as your networking and we'll love to be a part of that networking circle because I know at some point, just by you networking so much, you're gonna become the guy to know and you probably already are in a lot of your circles like Gary's the one who knows all the that's the benefit of being the one out there networking. I don't, I don't know why nobody does it. It works if you do it. We're so so great. Catching up, man. Definitely hand we'll talk to you soon.

Yeah, thanks. See. All right, and then just hold on one second. I