Fr. Steve and Beth discuss the universal call to holiness through the lens of Pope Francis’s Apostolic Exhortation, Gaudete et Exsultate.

Show notes:

(0:56) Fr. Steve and Beth catch up and reflect on the movies they watched and loved growing up that always remind them of summer, like The Sandlot and Independence Day.

(5:05) Fr. Steve introduces this episode’s topic of the call to holiness. Beth also introduces Pope Francis’s Apostolic Exhortation, Gaudete et Exsultate, and mentions the richness of the document that she looks forward to sharing in this episode.

(7:06) To begin the conversation, Beth offers a definition of holiness, and Fr. Steve refers to Gaudete et Exsultate to offer the Pope’s reflection on the meaning of holiness. They also offer definitions of holiness from Popes Emeriti Benedict XVI and John Paul II.

(10:57) Fr. Steve reflects on the evangelical nature of holiness, that it’s a call to go out and witness to the Lord. He and Beth reflect on everyday, ordinary examples as well as some examples in the lives of the saints of what holiness we can live out when we say yes to the Lord.

(20:48) Beth and Fr. Steve address the two dangers to holiness that Pope Francis introduces in the document, Pelagianism and Gnosticism. They define Gnosticism and discuss what makes it such a challenge to holiness.

(25:04) They transition to Pelagianism, discussing what it is and why it’s a ‘subtle enemy’ of holiness. They discuss where they see Pelagianism in the life of the Church today, like in our tendencies to turn away from prayer and towards action.

(30:57) Beth and Fr. Steve explore the third chapter of Gaudete et Exsultate, where Pope Francis examines how to live out the universal call to holiness. They talk about the Beatitudes and how they personify holiness and holy indifference, and they revisit Novo Millennio Ineunte.

(36:45) The two discuss the fourth chapter of the Exhortation and discuss: how can we live a life of holiness? What does that look like? They then transition into chapter five to discuss spiritual combat, vigilance, and discernment.

(42:22) Fr. Steve quizzes Beth on English names of Vatican documents, and they wrap up their discussion.

Links from this episode:

Gaudete et Exsultate

Evangelii Gaudium

Pauline Books and Media

Novo Millennio Ineunte

The Soul of the Apostolate

Forming Intentional Disciples

I Once Was Lost

InterVarsity

The Chosen

Fr. Steve:

Welcome to another spectacular episode of Encounter Grow Witness, a podcast of the Archdiocese of Detroit, helping the Unleash the Gospel movement, especially those who are working in our parishes and helping our pastors and all the faithful in our parishes know and love Jesus Christ. I am your boring host, Father Steve Pullis, and we have the fun, lively and exciting host, Beth.

Beth:

I'll try to be fun. I don't know guys. I think Father Steve's a lot more fun than me, but I'll do my best. I'll do my best.

Fr. Steve:

It's great to see you. I hope you're doing well. We are in the throes of summer now, so there's nothing going on. We're bored, quiet. Just kind of nothing at all going on. Right?

Beth:

Funny. I think there's more things going on now and we're like adjusting back to that because people, I think, aren't used to so many events and groups and people and yeah, yeah. It's exciting though.

Fr. Steve:

One of the things we were talking about, like we talked about summer memories last time, but I think of, as a kid, going to the movies in summer, and there's so many movies in my mind that are like summer movies. That are like emblematic of summer movies. I remember going to see Jurassic Park as a kid. And to me, the Sandlot is like the quintessential summer movie of my childhood. Because it's about summer. And I don't even know if it came out in the summer, but it's just like, it's about summer. And there were so many great baseball movies of the nineties. The heyday of excellent baseball movies. Let's just call it what it is there.

Fr. Steve:

But I have not been back to the movies since, you know, COVID. People are doing that now, I guess, so — but I'm looking forward to, at some point, have you been back?

Beth:

I haven't been back to the movies.

Fr. Steve:

Are you a movie goer at all, or?

Beth:

Yeah, I think I'm somewhere in between a real movie-goer — in high school my best friend had free passes to the movies. So I pretty much saw everything in that four year period.

Fr. Steve:

But did she work at a theater or?

Beth:

Her company — she worked at a company that had like a deal with them.

Beth:

No, I'm happy to say both of her legs were intact.

Fr. Steve:

Or find like a mouse in her popcorn one time?

Beth:

That would be surprising. No, I don't think so. I don't think so for me, summer movies, that one that was quintessential for me was Independence Day. I remember my family, we all got in the car and we drove and it was, I believe in my memory, it was July 4th. Maybe I'm crossing that, but in my memory —.

Fr. Steve:

Well that is Independence Day.

Beth:

I know! But like to see it that day and I just remember thinking it was so awesome, you know, 'cause I was young and thought — but now watching it, I still enjoy watching it, but it's just so cheesy and predictable, but yeah, Will Smith.

Fr. Steve:

So I have, I have never seen Independence Day.

Fr. Steve:

That's a whole, we might say, in my movie repertoire. What I think happened — now I could be misremembering this, but what I think happened — I'm from a big family, I think my older brothers and sisters went to see Independence Day. And I think my little sister and I went with my dad to see this John Travolta movie called Phenomenon that came out at the same time. I could be, like, conflating different things, but that's what I seem to remember really in that movie is not seeing it, seeing a B-rate John Travolta movie. [laughs]

Fr. Steve:

You know what, but I made it through. I made it through. Yeah, yeah,

Beth:

Sure. I think you did. I think you did. [laughs]

Fr. Steve:

I also remember going to see when the Star Wars movies came back out with like my best friend from grade school, Ted Buffington. Ted and I and Joe Horn, another — not the pastor, actually — but a kid from my class in school, we went up and watched one of those. I forget which one, maybe it was the first one, but it was when the star wars movies were being rebooted, not the Phantom Menace stuff, but like the 25th anniversary something. Yeah, sure. Do you remember that?

Beth:

I don't. I remember — so when I was growing up, we, I did see those movies and then my husband's not into it. So he used to joke that Han Solo was still frozen in ice. He hadn't seen the next one. Well, our son came home from kindergarten obsessed with Star Wars, which was like a two-year experience for our family. We've worked out, we've worked our way out of the star wars, obsession.

Fr. Steve:

Gratefully, it sounds like?

Beth:

'Gratefully, it sounds like' is correct. Yes. But you know, there's good stuff in some of those.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, I liked them. I'm not a devotee of those movies, but I liked them. But there are so many good summer movies that and as we kind of work our way out of a pandemic, it's a great time to, I don't know, I think of that. I think about wanting to go see a movie this summer. So we'll see. I've never been to a drive-in. I'm not that old, Beth.

Beth:

What? You're the same age as me.

Fr. Steve:

Did you have drive-ins?

Beth:

No, but well, we would drive—

Fr. Steve:

What, so are you just making it up?

Beth:

They're around, Father Steve. There's drive-ins around, but yeah, we didn't do it all the time, but sure. I remember going to them.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, we were not that exciting or fun. So it sounds like yeah. But speaking of exciting and fun and drive-ins, we are going to talk today about the call to holiness.

Beth:

The call to holiness today.

Fr. Steve:

And specifically about how Pope Francis wrote this awesome document and Beth, this was your idea to take some time and go through his document on the call to holiness in the modern world. So Beth, what are we going to talk about?

Beth:

Yeah, boy. So there's a lot in this document and there's a lot in here.

Fr. Steve:

So what's the document first?

Beth:

Oh yeah. So the document is Gaudete et Exsultate, which is exciting to say. Exsultate, I'm going to think about making that my new favorite word to say, I think, but previously it's been catechetical. There's just a lot of different, hard consonants in that. So I enjoy saying it.

Fr. Steve:

I feel like it's going to become like an expletive for you. Like when stub your toe, you're going to be, "Exsultate!" Anyway. That's what I heard when you said it. So go ahead.

Beth:

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I think it's a great document. It might be my favorite of the Pope Francis documents. I like Evangelii Gaudium, I just like this a lot, so I'm really glad you picked it. And one of the things I think is good for us to maybe kick it off with is just by talking about holiness, what is holiness? And he talks about that a little bit in the first chapter, but maybe you know, not to make it a quiz, I don't mean that, but like Beth, like how would you define holiness?

Beth:

How would I define holiness? I think being like God. Being like God, seeing others as God sees them and thinking and acting as God thinks and acts in our world. Hmm. Yeah. But I see you're pulling out a hard document here to give me the real answer.

Fr. Steve:

[laughs] We're not supposed to mention that! It's supposed to sound like it's off the top of my head. I like these Pauline Book and Media versions of the of the encyclicals and papal documents. I think they're the right size for me. And I got a whole bunch of them lined up, so anyway, I liked them. But yeah, in the first kind of section, he talks a lot about like, what is holiness. He gives his own thoughts about it or his own definition of it. And then he gives a definition that Pope Benedict offers, you know, "Holiness," Pope Benedict says, "Is nothing other than charity lived to the full." And I think that's a great definition. Pope Francis talks about holiness as being, you know, this radical commitment to say yes to God in every circumstance. And I said, it's not just for priests or directors of evangelization in basilicas, it's for everyone to be called to the life of holiness. And it's going to look different in everyone's life. And that's the beauty of it. You know, the beauty of the church is Christ calling all of us to live a life of holiness. And it's not a cookie cutter. The saints are not like that. They're not all the same and they're not exact models for us to follow precisely their inspirations. And they show us kind of different — I think of it, different facets of holiness, like, you know, different angles of holiness. So yeah.

Beth:

Yeah. I thought it was great how he sort of is echoing what John Paul II had said in Novo Millennio Ineunte, "The time has come to re-propose wholeheartedly to everyone, this high standard of ordinary Christian living." I know some people hear that and they're like, ah, but to me that feels very January one, new year, new resolution let's do this, right. It feels like the morning after Ash Wednesday, right? When you're like, I can do this, I've got this. We can do this Lord, come. So I just think it's exciting that there were so many quotes in this that I really loved. I thought, he said, "Very often it is a holiness found," — excuse me — "In our next door neighbors, those who are living in our midst reflect God's presence. We might call them the middle-class of holiness." I thought that was such a great line. The middle-class of holiness. Okay. We could do that.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. I might not be, you know, wealthy and famous in my holiness, but I can do it. Yeah. I think this is one of the geniuses of Pope Francis, I think it's one of his greatest attributes or gifts as a pope is trying to help people see it in the ordinariness of life. I think that comes through in lots of things he does and says, yeah, but I think it comes through here. When he talks about holiness, he talks about grandparents and, you know, quiet individuals, neighbors, and friends who live it out.

Beth:

Especially women. He gives a long shout out to women, both saints of the church and those who just see silently and quietly. What did he say? "Sustained and transformed families and communities by the power of their witness, those unknown or forgotten women." All right. Now, thank you.

Fr. Steve:

Well so many priests I know point back to their mom or grandma as kind of the bearers of faith for their family. And I know in talking with the Archbishop, he's talked about like his first grade teacher, I forget her name, but a sister who was this great model of holiness for him and how, you know, we don't know the impact we're making on other people. Right? And holiness is not meant to be self-contained. It's meant to go out. And I mean, just kind of staying in the first chapter, in my own mind here of this document Pope Francis talks again and again about, you know, holiness is not just being in church all the time, but it's about, it's about going out and it's about living, you know, every part of your life for the Lord saying yes to Jesus.

Fr. Steve:

And so he goes through, you know, an example of a woman's life where she wants to gossip and she chooses not to, and how these are — and her child comes to her and wants to talk about his hopes and dreams and she's, you know, tired or distracted and she patiently listens, and then she meets someone in need on the street and she stops and shares a kind word with them. I think that's just a beautiful example of like, there's so many moments throughout our life and throughout our day where we're given the opportunity to say yes to the Lord. One of the ways I think that's so critical and I've seen this in my own life and have usually a ton of room to grow a ton of growing needed, but I think about how the little ways I've said yes to the Lord make it possible for me to say yes to the Lord in bigger ways.

Beth:

That's so true. Yeah.

Fr. Steve:

So, you know, in my own vocation I've thought about, you know, the times when, when I was discerning a vocation to the priesthood, I thought about when like Jesus was inviting me to spend time with him. So I took an hour a week in college because I was challenged by someone to do that. I took an hour a week to pray and saying yes to that, like carving that little bit of time out, allowed me to hear another invitation from the Lord that eventually led for me to hear his invitation to be a priest. And that holiness builds on the little yeses. So you might say like this moment of this woman, like wanting to gossip and her resisting that and, and and, and being charitable in that situation, you're like, okay, you know that that's not, that's not life-changing or world changing by itself, but it's an incremental step that the Lord uses to call us more deeply into a life of holiness.

Fr. Steve:

I think about this with the life of the saints, you know, Saint Maximilian Kolbe is my boy, I think, as the kids say, but I love Saint Maximilian Kolbe. I think about the radical witness he made at Auschwitz to step forward in the midst of, I mean, probably the greatest evil, the most the best example of hell on earth being an Auschwitz. And he was able to step forward and say, I will take this man's place to die. That didn't come out of nowhere. Right? That came out of like little moments of saying yes, that were incrementally greater, that prepared him for this great moment. And I don't know what the Lord's preparing me for. So, but I don't want to make it too much about me, but I'll just say, I don't know what the Lord is preparing me for, but I know each yes, I may opens up a possibility for me to say a deeper yes. And to be more faithful to what he's calling me to in the future, and same with your life and the life of everyone listening here.

Beth:

It's funny 'cause the yeses don't seem that important. Right? When we — the little, yeses just don't seem that important. I remember when I graduated college and I went to Calcutta to work with Mother Teresa's sisters, I remember thinking like this is going to feel so exciting and so important. And like, I'm going to change the world, you know, and you know, I got there and I just didn't understand. Like I was — so there was such a natural good let down of, like, I thought this would feel more important. I thought that, you know, I would have some sense of like saving the world or ending something or, you know, but I washed cups. I looked after children. I washed floors, you know, and, and people kept repeating to me Mother Teresa's word, which was actually written on the wall of the orphanage where I was working.

Beth:

"We can do no great things. Only small things with great love." And I just remember thinking. Yeah. But like, but like where's the big, important thing, you know? I think also just these small yeses, it really is the hidden path of little children. I have a lot of friends right now who are home with little ones and and you know, it feels sort of unimportant and and just small and hidden and, you know, children, I don't think, grow up to necessarily recall all those little sacrifices that were made, you know washing feet. We've started a tradition on Holy Thursday where we wash our kids' feet. And they get so excited and we read the Gospel and we've washed their feet and they think it's so special. And I'm thinking I do this like all the time. I mean, your feet are so dirty. Everyone. I'm always washing your feet or washing the walls and the floors because I didn't wash your feet, you know? So, but I think that yes, as you say, right? That yes, it's how we grow closer to him. It's how we say that. Those bigger yeses. Yeah. Yeah.

Fr. Steve:

And even if each one of those is not remembered by your children, it's creating an environment where they know they're loved, where they know you're sacrificing for them, whether they know it or not like, externally, it's being manifested to them. Right. So they might—

Beth:

Part of it is just like letting go of my own pride. [laughs].

Fr. Steve:

So God is working in you, for sure.

Beth:

That's right. [laughs]

Fr. Steve:

And your whole family to kind of help them understand the depth of love.

Beth:

Yeah. There were so many other things in here to love. One thing that I really appreciated, he said, "Holiness is the most attractive face of the Church." And we shouldn't strive to be holy to evangelize, but nevertheless, if we strive to evangelize without first seeking holiness, we are not only wasting everyone's time, we're actually doing far more damage, you know? And I think for me, when I was reading just in one of the more recent church abuse scandals, it was a number of years back actually. But when I was reading that, I started really going back and looking at — more into Church history and I hadn't taken a grad level class on it yet, but just reading Curch history. And really I was reading from secular sources and from Catholic sources because I just kind of wanted to make sure I was understanding and hearing the whole thing.

Beth:

And what was fascinating is in the Catholic version of Church history, it was the same stories, the same hard things, the same bad things, the same sins right of our members. But the difference in the recounting of what had happened, in the recounting of the history was the presence and impact of the saints. Right? So in the midst of this secular book, they say, oh, here's this horrible thing that happened. And then in the Catholic version, they're like, here's this horrible thing that happened. And here was Saint Benedict or St. Bernard or St. Francis or saying, whoever is coming, Saint Catherine of Sienna coming in and saying, "Hey, this is not how we're called to live. This is not what God's calling us to." Right. So I think again, yeah, holiness is that attractive face of the Church. So how can we each strive to be more of that attractive face?

Fr. Steve:

I think you're exactly right. I mean, in the arc of Church history, it's holiness that brings people back. It's not tremendous pastoral planning, right. It's not the, you know, the most erudite document that the Church can write. All of those things are meant to assist us and help us. So we're not like — you know St. Francis was a great gift to the Church, but St. Francis, isn't the model in his, like for, for everyone to follow in his lack of structure. So he was, you know, kind of brilliant. But the Church needs structure needs order. But ultimately it's holiness that does anything in the Church and the holiness of saying yes to Jesus moment by moment in our lives, as Pope Francis says I think about that in the life of — I think about that in prayer life is what I'm trying to say.

Fr. Steve:

That— and he talks about prayer and holiness, and he says, you know, prayer is only as effective or as helpful as it leads us to holiness, as it leads me to say yes to the Lord. And so my prayer always has to be not just concerned with the amount of time I'm putting in or what I'm reading, but that I'm letting it penetrate my heart and impact my life. And so my prayer is effective — and effective is even the wrong way to say it. I don't mean that. Fruitful, thank you, to the degree that it penetrates my heart and it changes the way I think, act, and treat other people. And I think we see that with the saints, right? I mean, you listed a number of great ones there who led to renewal. I would add maybe St. Philip Neri, who led to incredible renewal in the Church in Rome. And you know, you've already cited Mother Teresa. I think Mother Theresa is such a prophetic figure for our time because of her radical witness to love and holiness in the midst of, you know—

Beth:

Human dignity. And not being afraid of any challenge. She wasn't afraid of any challenge. I mean, she's in Beirut and there's bombing and there's an orphanage caught in the middle of the bombing. And no one will go in and rescue these children and all the workers have left because there's bombs going on. They have abandoned these children. And she says, she shows up and she's like, I need 500 towels. I need two Jeeps. I need band-aids. I need all of these different things. And they're like, you can't go in there. She's like, oh no, I've prayed. There'll be a cease-fire. I'll be fine. And they're like, okay. So she just goes in and carries out all of these children and people are just standing there again, gassed. Right. But that gutsy, like, confidence in God's Providence and confidence in like, this is what the Lord said to do. So at whatever the cost I will do it.

Fr. Steve:

Saying yes to him, whatever he asks. And I, again, I think that builds upon other yeses she made all throughout her life, to have confidence that, okay, this is saying yes to the Lord here.

Beth:

Started 10 rupees, 10 rupees. That's not a lot of money. And a tin can. I think they gave her a tin can, too. Okay. That's what she began with. I mean, when she began the Missionaries of Charity, she had a tin can and10 rupees. Wow. Okay. Great. Sounds like you've got it all wrapped up here. Lord, thank you for your abundant provision, with this mission, but it did come, you know, so?

Fr. Steve:

Let's talk for a minute about chapter two Pope Francis talks about these two evils of of our world two dangers: Pelagianism and Gnosticism. And he talks about those as two challenges to our commitment to holiness. Right. so just to take a moment, Gnosticism is this kind of understanding that our soul, the important part of us is trapped in our body. The unimportant part of us, it's this dualistic understanding of human nature, that our bodies are unimportant and the soul is the only thing that that's important. And it is kind of founded on —Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis, which is knowledge that there's some kind of secret, secret knowledge out there, right. That only certain people know. Beth, why is Gnosticism a challenge to holiness?

Beth:

I think that it can get to the point where we're so obsessed with what we know and the knowledge that we're, we've forgotten to love. And I'm sure he wrote this with a lot of specific things in mind. It wasn't as clear to me what specific things he was thinking of. But I think like among those who understand and abide by Church teachings, even those that are hard, I think there can emerge sort of a frustration or even a judgment of those who don't understand these hard Church teachings. And so I think that can be a form of Gnosticism, right? Where instead of our hearts being broken for those who don't know and understand, and instead of having empathy for those who have to kind of bear with the confusion and shifting sands of our world, right. We kind of more are frustrated that they don't have the secret knowledge or that they just don't get it. And I think that's just a real lack of love on our part.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, that the ultimate goal is to know in our intellect, right, rather than to live in our lives. And we're not opposed to intellect at all. I mean, God created our minds to know deeply. But Jesus came in the flesh so that we would know him in the flesh and he says, "Take and eat. This is my body." Right. He gives us his flesh to eat. And so the soul, the whole sacramental economy of the Church is based on the reality that the things of this world, while they're tinged with a misunderstanding or can be problematic, are good. God communicates himself through the things of this world, in the creation account, everything he makes, he says, "And it was good." Right. so even our flesh, our humanity, we're not just minds trapped in bodies. When Jesus, after he rises from the dead, he's not this amorphous ghost wandering around.

Fr. Steve:

He tells them, touch my hands, give me some, some fish or some bread to eat so that I can show you that my resurrection is truly in my body as well. And so Gnosticism, I think has real challenges in our world today when we hear people, you know, try to live a life, divorcing the actions of our bodies from a life of faith. That, you know, what, what really matters is what's in my heart or what's in my mind, not in my actions. Right? And I think that's a great of the Christian life, that as you talk about your your time in Calcutta, it's the ordinary mundane things, your life as a mom, the ordinary mundane things where you're going to grow in holiness, not some kind of mystical, spiritual experience you have.

Beth:

Right. It's so true.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. And same for the life as a priest. I mean, obviously different encounter. And all of those who work in parishes, right? It's often the mundane, like schedule making, phone calls, listening to people's conversations. That's where holiness comes from saying yes to Jesus in that moment and pouring yourself out into that. That's where we're going to grow in holiness.

Beth:

Yeah. So true. I think of the multiplication of the loaves and fishes, right? And Jesus, his line pick up the fragments that nothing be, be wasted, right? If you think of how long it must've taken to pick up the fragments, I heard a great — read a great sermon on that. You know, that the Lord was teaching them such an important lesson, not only the abundance of his provision, but also our role. Our role and his role, right? The Lord does the miracle, he takes the little we have. And then we do the other little things, right. This little faithful service. How long did it take at the end of a long day? I mean, we all know what it's like in parish ministry to be putting the chairs away and wiping down the tables. I mean, who's the one taking out the garbage? Now there's holiness, right? There's the possibility for it anyway.

Fr. Steve:

So that's a great segment— segue into talking about Pelagianism too. So the other one, Pelagianism, says that I bring about my own salvation. It's my work that does it. So, you know, the only thing that matters are my actions. I determine everything. And that doesn't take into account the radical life of grace. Jesus, who says, it was I who chose you, not you who chose me. And the radical dependency we have on the Lord that we don't bring about our own salvation through our work. It's a free gift from Jesus. And if we're always thinking we have to earn it, or we have to do the work to, you know, to make it happen, we totally misunderstand. Now, we're not totally passive. We don't just sit by and let the Lord kind of sweep us away. But I think your example of the loaves and the fishes is the perfect way to look at it. Right? It's Jesus who does the work, but he wants us to be part of it. I think about the you know calling the disciples to go prepare the upper room for the last supper as well. Right. He's like, "find this dude." He's got a donkey and he's got an upper room and work with him. So the Lord wants us to cooperate, but always in obedience to him and knowing that the primary work is his. And so Pelagianism is a great scourge that says, I bring about my own salvation. No, no, no. It's a free gift from the Lord.

Beth:

I think Pope Francis said, "The lack of a heartfelt and prayerful acknowledgement of our limitations prevents grace from working more effectively within us." Yeah. That's the problem here.

Fr. Steve:

But it's hard Beth, because Jesus doesn't do everything. I want him to, he doesn't bring about the solutions I want him to. Right? So to—

Beth:

I think of Moses, right? go ahead and raise your hand. And I'll part the Red Sea. Well, but what if it happens and nothing? What if I do that? And like everyone sees, nothing happens. Maybe I'll just stand here and you part the Red Sea. Yeah. That sound good? No, that's not good? So it is complicated because we do participate, but then it's not ours to do. Right? Where do you see Pelagianism in Church life today?

Fr. Steve:

Oh, I think I see it in turning away from prayer and dependency on the Lord and just turning to action. Right? Like Pope Francis — I don't believe it's here, but somewhere else, he talks about the the idol of busyness and that's our culture. That's our, that's our culture in the Church. That's our culture everywhere. Right? Like if someone doesn't tell you how busy they are, there's something wrong with them. You feel like, right? Like, "How are you doing?" "Oh, I'm busy. There's a lot going on right now. I've got a lot going on." Right. That's a way of saying like I'm doing a lot. Yeah. I think it's a particularly American problem, but I think it's an idol that we need to smash and destroy to kind of always trying to be — to always have to be busy. And this is where, you know, I think of our efforts to not play sports on Sunday in Detroit, as a way to say, we need to carve out time because being busy all the time is not how God made us. And it doesn't help reflect externally or internally for ourselves the reality of our dependency on the Lord. He does talk in here about the need for us to be attentive and to be silent, to hear the Lord's voice. And it's only when we slow down and we're receptive to him that we get to hear his voice.

Beth:

So true. Yeah. I think of my ministry before I read the Soul of the Apostolate and after I read the Soul of the Apostolate, 'cause that's really the whole premise of that is, you know, one: our ministry will bear no fruit if we have no interior life, and two: we may be walking the road to hell actually, because we've become so obsessed with busy-ness so obsessed with measure metrics and all of this that we forget our own heart, we forget our own soul. So certainly that's definitely a Pelagian kind of attitude, but like how do we strive to participate and stay close to the Lord and depend on the Holy Spirit? I think there also can be a funny Pelagianism that isn't away from prayer, but it's more of kind of a rigidity with prayer and devotions. I knew a man who was really into the prayers of Saint Brigid of Sweden.

Beth:

I don't know if you're familiar with — there are a lot of promises and some of the promises are like, if you pray these prayers every day for a year, you know, all your family will go to heaven. You know? So these aren't approved. There's, you know, just some things in there, but anyway, so that's a real rigid part of his life. He prays these prayers everyday, and they're long prayers. I mean, it'd take a good hour, I think, to get through them unless you really move. And I don't know. But like, you know, on the one hand there's like — I don't know. It's just, how do we walk that balance, right? Of praying and trusting the Lord, but also not burdening others with our, the rigidity of our prayer life. Right? Like he talks in another section, like, we can't have a holiness that must be in silence and away from the people, right. This is not, this is not a holiness, right? Like we need to be with the Lord, but we also need to love God's people. We can't just say good luck everybody. Right.

Fr. Steve:

And that's why he talks about, I think he talks about those two as challenges. I think anyone who works for the Church, most priests I know have had people do the novena to St. Jude, which is nine nine days of prayers. And you need to leave nine slips in the church for nine consecutive days. It's weird. Right? I just, like, I don't think, like — it seems superstitious. And I think that's where some of that Pelagianism can come in, right. If only I do leave these nine slips and nine churches for nine days, then the Lord will hear my prayer. Right? And that becomes a problem. Anyway, we could talk about this forever. Let's move on to the heart of the document because we do have to wrap up eventually. But chapter three is really the heart of where he talks about this. That this is lived out through the Beatitudes and through the call of the — in Matthew 25, about the the radical, you know, seeing the face of Christ and those we serve. I always find the Beatitudes a difficult part of the Gospel.

Beth:

I also find them difficult. There's always a few that I always resonate with, but I think I, you know, he says the Beatitudes are like a Christian's identity card. In the Beatitudes we find a portrait of the master, which we are called to reflect in our daily lives. And I wonder if we did a poll, which of these people would find most challenging. I think there's a lot that seemed to come up against, especially, our American sensibility.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, just because we don't have an unlimited amount of time. Are there any — or anything in this section that stuck out to you? I think I just want to talk about that quote from a different quote from Novo Millennio Ineunte, about halfway through this section where he points to John Paul II who says, "If we truly start out anew from the contemplation of Christ, we must learn to see him, especially in the faces of those, with whom he himself wished to be identified." And that talking about the part of Matthew chapter 25, where Jesus says, you know, in the last judgment, "When I was hungry, you gave me food. When I was thirsty, you gave me a drink." And they say, "When did we do that?" He'll say, "Whenever you did it for the least of these, you did it for me." And I hear Pope Francis and John Paul telling us to, like, recalibrate ourselves to allowing Jesus to change our mind, to see, to contemplate Christ and understand those that he wanted to be identified as those in need. But anything in the Beatitudes that stuck out to you?

Beth:

Yeah, I think 'blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven'. I was just thinking about what he said about spiritual poverty and how that's related to what St. Ignatius of Loyola calls holy indifference and how that brings us to interior freedom. And holy indifference is something I've been talking with a lot about — or talking a lot about with others in ministry, about how can we, you know, be faithful and do the very best that we can, but also ultimately have holy indifference to whether this, you know, sand castle gets washed away with the next wave? You know, like I want to build in such a way that my peace is not shaken if something goes away, I think it should not. Or you know, when I think something, oh, I think we should have done that. And in the end, we don't, you know? Having that holy indifference and having that poverty of spirit to say, like, Lord only you, I accept. And I will have only you and you know, the rest of it, I'm not going to hold on to.

Fr. Steve:

Right at the end of the section he has this beautiful quote about mercy, where he says, "Those who wish to give glory to God—" He talks about true and right worship here, "Those who wish to give glory to God by their lives, who truly long to grow in holiness are called to be single-minded and tenacious in their practice of the works of mercy." That mercy becomes kind of the measuring stick for my own holiness and true worship of God. That it's, you know, all that I do bears fruit in a life of mercy for those I love, those around me, and for those whom God puts in my life — holy indifference, right? Maybe God will put powerful, influential people in my life. Maybe he'll put kind of people of no worldly significance in my life. Maybe he'll build people in my life who are annoying to me, who I struggle to love or who are, you know, kind of yeah. Who, you know, yeah. With whom it's not easy to get along with. And all of those, I need to be tenacious in showing mercy if I want to be a man or a woman who grows in holiness.

Beth:

Absolutely. Yeah. I also appreciated 'blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven'. And, you know, he speaks about how persecutions aren't a reality of the past, but today they're still part of it. And, you know, obviously around the world, we know people are greatly persecuted for our faith. And then, you know, in our culture, it's more, you know, maybe making fun of, or people kind of treating us as though our faith is ridiculous. You know, things like that. And I think there was a great book that kind of preceded Sherry Woodell's Forming Intentional Disciples called I Once Was Lost. And it was about Intervarsity's research with college campuses and those who had kind of become Christian in the last year and what stages, what processes they had gone through, which kind of was the forerunner for thresholds of conversion.

Beth:

Anyway, when it came to people who don't trust anyone Christian or Catholic or identifiably Christian or Catholic, they often are pre-trust. They're very antagonistic. They're very rude about things of faith. Right? They see it as bad. And I think how do we respond to people who actually like this? Right? And typically I think they identified a number of ways that we tend to respond, which is we bruise, right? We bruise, we avoid these people, or we argue with them, those are generally our responses. And so the question is, well, is that what great evangelists do? Right? Can you imagine if Paul was in Athens and they said, "Yeah, I don't know. He rose from the dead. Yeah. We'll see you later." And he like took it personally? Right? And went in the back room and sulked, or if he got really angry with them and antagonistic, like this doesn't evangelize, right?

Beth:

Nobody wants to be a part of your crazy thing. So, you know, instead how can we, when people do persecute us for the sake of righteousness, whatever, however, it may come across, like how do we then pray for them, learn more about their story, seek opportunities to bond with them? Right? Not avoid them. What would it look like if we leaned into these relationships? Right? What difference could that make, if we look for common ground? But there also is a reality of yeah, we do endure suffering. Right? "Do not be surprised when you meet the cross on your way," John Paul II told the youth of the world. So the cross is definitely a part of our faith.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. And that's a great segue. Again, you're a great segue into chapter four, where he talks about signs of holiness in our world and what it looks like to live a life of holiness. And one of the sections I think is best here is where he talks about a joy and a sense of humor that like, it is so crucial. So this is a bit of a hobby horse for me, but so crucial for us to be joyful in following Jesus, you know he talks about not being a sourpuss in following the Lord. And the fact that we need a sense of humor, both about our own selves, that we're imperfect, and we need to be able to kind of laugh at ourselves. Right?

Fr. Steve:

But also to realize that you know, that Jesus wants us to be joyful and he wants us to laugh. Last year, a few of the priests I live with were watching The Chosen together. And I think it's such a beautiful portrayal of Jesus's humanity, his joy, his sorrow at, you know, things he experiences and even this playfulness you know, it's not scripturally. None of that, it's not all like exactly, so it's not opposed to it, but it's not written into it, but it's this beautiful portrayal of like, what would be attractive about Jesus, right? It's not just hellfire and brimstone all the time. Now he does have to preach difficult truths and call people to repentance. But he also does it with a joy that comes with following the Lord and being filled with the Holy Spirit should give us confidence that, you know, no matter what we experience, God is with us. And so that should mark should mark us with a character of joy.

Beth:

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I agree.

Fr. Steve:

All right, well, let's wrap it up with the closing bit. In chapter five, he talks about spiritual combat, vigilance, and discernment. Anything from that, Beth, on discernment or kind of the combat as you talk about, you know, don't be afraid to meet the cross. As we go along, anything from this last chapter?

Beth:

You know, there were — I had a couple of thoughts, the one under vigilance, combat and vigilance, he spoke about how, when we let down our guard, Satan takes advantage of it to destroy our lives, our families, and our communities. And then that verse from first Peter, "Like a roaring lion, he prowls around looking for someone to devour," right? It's this very clear image. And I years ago we watched the movie Flight with Denzel Washington. He is almost — he's a pilot, he almost crashed the plane, but in the end he doesn't, but he's drunk. I mean, completely drunk. He's always drunk. Right? And so they do this evaluation because they can't, yeah. The actor. They can't understand how he didn't. They just can't figure out what happened. And he almost gets away with it.

Beth:

He almost gets away, passing off, because the airlines don't want it to be obvious that he's drunk. 'Cause then of course they — the insurance won't cut — anyway, this whole mess and you see him, just this very real struggle with addiction. And it's a very real struggle with alcoholism. And, you know, he's getting cleaned up, getting cleaned up, but then at the very end, this door swings open in the night and there's access to this mini fridge with all this alcohol, you know? And I just think of like how the Lord — or how Satan, right, foes always look for these. He's always prowling around. There's always these moments, right, in our lives where like the temptation approaches, like, Satan is trying to, as it says here, as Pope Francis says, he's trying to destroy our lives, our families and our communities. Right?

Speaker 2:

Like how do we remain, like, both hopeful and confident because the Lord is the king of everything, you know St. Francis had this great moment when he was praying in a chapel in the dead of night, which was his favorite time to go and pray in these chapels and, you know, Satan and the demons come to torture him. And he says, okay, well go ahead. And the demons are like, what, what do you mean, just go ahead? You should be afraid of us. And he's like, I'm not afraid of you, whatever you're going to do, Jesus has allowed. So go ahead. And they were just so like — they left, they didn't bother him that night. They're like, this is no fun.

Fr. Steve:

This is no fun!

Beth:

It's no fun. But then I just think like, yeah, what is it? How can we be vigilant? I think, especially when we're tired, when we're discouraged, I think those are particularly times when we need to be in community and we need to take care of ourselves as well.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, and I think that that ties in nicely with, I think it's the first chapter where he talks about, you know, some of the thoughts about holiness in the sense of, you know, the saints didn't do everything perfectly. The saints fell at times. But what marks on as holiness is they got up again, right? So the life of holiness is not a life of complete sinlessness because we know that we can fall and fail, but it's always getting back up. So when we do fall, when we do fail, when we give into temptation to know that that doesn't define us, that God gives us grace to repent and to choose to follow him joyfully. And I think that that helps us understand God even allows our sins. He doesn't want us to sin, but he permits us to sin so that we can realize our radical dependency on him.

Fr. Steve:

And so whenever we do fall, the way to conquer that is to let that be a greater trust in the Lord and less trust in my own ability, turn away from the Pelagianism of, "I can do it on my own," and to turn to the Lord and say, "Lord, I am radically dependent on you. And my joy comes from being united to you." Pope Francis says that, "Do not be afraid of holiness. It will take away none of your energy, vitality or joy." You know, what is fun as we wrap up here? I think, since we kind of go back and forth with wrap-up quizzes, I want to quiz you Beth, on some titles of papal documents translating from — as she types away.

Beth:

Oh yeah. I'm pulling up my Internet browser.

Fr. Steve:

To translate. Some of these titles into English.

Beth:

I did not take Latin, so my graduate professors are — they're bummed that this is the test I've been put up to. So this doesn't look great right now.

Fr. Steve:

I'm sure you'll have an opportunity to make me look bad in future.

Beth:

I'm looking forward to it.

Fr. Steve:

So this document is called Gaudete et Exsultate. What does Gaudete et Exsultate mean?

Beth:

Rejoice and be glad.

Fr. Steve:

Rejoice, and be glad. And Beth, where is that found? That's a scripture.

Beth:

In the Beatitudes. Matthew five.

Fr. Steve:

Matthew five verse 12. Muy bueno. Pope Francis's first in cyclical was entitled Lumen Fidei.

Beth:

The light of faith.

Fr. Steve:

The light of faith. Look at that.

Beth:

I knew a sister in India, whose name was Sister Lumen. And the poor woman, most people don't speak Latin so she had to repeat her name over and over and over again. It's like, I'm sorry. What is her name? Lumen. Lumen. Light. Like, oh, sorry, sister. Thank you, sister.

Speaker 1:

Pope Francis's most famous document probably is his exhortation on the — called Evangelii Gaudium.

Beth:

See you almost said it in English! You almost said the joy of the Gospel. Yeah.

Fr. Steve:

What does Evangelium Gaudii mean?

Beth:

The joy of the Gospel. Well you're not going super obscure here. I was worried.

Fr. Steve:

No, no. Let's let's go. When Pope Francis instituted the Year of Mercy, he said — he issued a document closing the year of mercy called Misericordia et Misera.

Beth:

Oh boy. Yeah. Right. I remember that document. Hm, Hm, Mercy and heart? I don't know. Mercy. Hmm. I don't know.

Fr. Steve:

Mercy with misery.

Beth:

Mercy with misery.

Fr. Steve:

Beth:

The splendor of the truth.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. Look at that.

Beth:

That's a good one.

Fr. Steve:

Beth:

Oh boy. No, I don't know. One something. I don't know.

Fr. Steve:

That they all may be one. That all may be one.

Beth:

That all may be one. Right. Oh yeah.

Fr. Steve:

Beth:

Yeah. The redeemer of man. Do you actually know when all these documents were written? Is that in your mind?

Fr. Steve:

In my computer, which is an extension of my mind, it's helping to form my mind.

Beth:

Wonderful.

Fr. Steve:

Beth:

Oh boy. Oh, the jubilee year, the year, the century, I don't know.

Fr. Steve:

Pretty close! On the hundredth year.

Beth:

Hundredth year.

Fr. Steve:

Beth:

You've got that date in your head.

Fr. Steve:

That one I know. That one I know. Well, Rerum Novarum, which means?

Beth:

Yes. I read that. And I don't recall.

Fr. Steve:

So this is the hundredth anniversary of it. Rerum Novarum means new things. Or new stuff.

Beth:

Wasn't there a document written 50 years after Rerum Novarum, too?

Fr. Steve:

There was a bunch of them. There was Quadrogesimo Anno, which is 40 years after there was Sexogesimo Anno, which is 60 years after. Pacem et Terris, which is another document of John Paul II, was written — or that's a document of John XXIII, was written in commemoration of that, but it wasn't named for that. So anyway, this is probably — I don't know who would still be listening at this point, but it was a fun, little way to to do a little quiz of Beth, and she killed it. So great job to kill it and go see a movie this summer.

Beth:

Go see a movie this summer, and let's be saints, huh? Do not be afraid to set your sights higher, to allow yourself to be loved and liberated by God, do not be afraid to let yourself be guided by the Holy Spirit. Holiness does not make you less human. So thanks for listening to another episode of Encounter Grow Witness. Be sure to listen to our podcasts every single month and tell everyone, you know, and be sure to subscribe and leave us a review.