This episode of the Climb podcast features a deep dive into the complex experiences of women of color in the workplace, focusing on the impact of microaggressions and gaslighting. Hosts Felicia Smith and Rebecca Jackson explore how subtle, everyday interactions can undermine self-worth and perpetuate feelings of not belonging. They discuss the importance of naming these experiences to validate feelings and foster understanding. The conversation also touches on the challenges of navigating professional environments while dealing with internalized biases, particularly among women of color. As they wrap up the season, Smith and Jackson emphasize the necessity of creating supportive spaces for open dialogue, where individuals can thrive and challenge systemic barriers.

Takeaways:

• This episode emphasizes the importance of naming trauma in the workplace for women of color.
• Microaggressions are subtle but impactful actions that convey messages of exclusion and disrespect.
• Gaslighting occurs when someone dismisses your lived experiences, making you question your sanity.
• The discussion highlights the significance of finding allies who will support and validate your experiences.
• It's essential to challenge respectability politics that police the behavior and appearance of marginalized individuals.
• Creating safe spaces for vulnerable conversations can empower women of color in leadership roles.

Welcome to the Klein podcast, where we are diving into taboo topics and redefining the rules for women of color leaders.

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All right, welcome to the Climb podcast, where we empower women of color in the pursuit of their leadership goals.

I'm Felicia Smith, the host and founder of the Climb, a 501 C three organization committed to increasing the number of women of color and leadership in managerial positions.

And each week on the Climb podcast, we aspire to cover and to deep dive into topics that are typically not covered.

Things that have been no one is being taboo or we kind of skirt around in our day to day work environments.

So in here, we break it down and we have fun doing it.

So if you have been following this season, can't believe this is episode number ten, end of the season, last episode.

So we are going to end the season the way we started the season, which is with the amazing Rebecca Jackson.

So if you were watching season two, episode one, how to recover from workplace trauma, this is kind of a part two.

So again, welcome, Rebecca.

I am super excited about you being back.

So glad to be here.

Thank you.

And so I'm gonna give you guys again her bio for those who maybe didn't catch episode one of season two.

And after you hear this, you're definitely gonna wanna go back because we're gonna do a little bit of recap, but you wanna hear that whole episode.

So Rebecca is clinically trained facilitator, teacher, consult and coach.

Her love for teaching, leading and supporting communities of color soon led her to Simmons College Graduates School of Social Work, where she began facilitating dialogue around issues of race and identity in clinical work, which she has continued to do in organizations.

In her clinical work, she worked in a variety of community based settings, including a residential program and a police station.

As chief program officer at Trinity, Rebecca led a strategic planning process for the organization's five programs and developed new human resource processes based in equity and restorative justice.

Oh, I love this.

Rebecca continues teaching at Harvard Graduate School of Education, Boston School of Social Work in Bridgewater State University School of social work.

Through loveseed, Rebecca applies her decades of leadership and teaching experience in supporting mission driven organizations to strengthen their equity practices internally and externally.

Rebecca creates space where people can have difficult but necessary conversations, learn, grow, and thrive.

She builds sustainable and brave leaders and organizations that bring their equity values to life.

And all of that is so true because we got to experience some of that last or nine episodes ago.

I cannot believe it's been a whole season.

So, Rebecca, let's.

Let's talk a little bit about the last episode.

I know a lot of people after that episode.

Number one, I was telling everyone, listen, you got to listen to this because I told you I went in not thinking that I was going to see myself in it.

Right.

And I think you were on, like, minute two and you talked about trauma and how overworking can be a trauma response.

And I was like, oh, gosh, just turned over.

He's here.

What do I do with this?

And so I got a lot of feedback about people being able to see themselves and all the amazing things that you said.

Is that typically a response?

That's something that you get when people, as people, you know, interact with you or even from the last podcast?

Yes.

I definitely had a few people in my circle who listened to it and, you know, wrote to me or texted me or whatever and was like, oh, wow, you were naming something that I've experienced that I did nothing put language to, and I've had that experience in other, you know, facilitation work that I've did when I talk about the aspects of white supremacy culture and people are like, oh, so there is something really powerful about having someone else put language.

I mean, of course we know there's limitations around language, too, but.

But I think there's something powerful about being able to name stuff and name dynamics because that, I think, is part of the sort of the impact of trauma.

Right.

Is that it makes us second guess ourselves.

Yeah.

And so when someone else says, oh, no, here's what that's called, then you're like, oh, okay, so I'm not crazy.

Yes, yes.

And there's safety in that.

And there's actually, although, you know, that it's something that's happened, there's safety in knowing I didn't make that up.

There's language for it, and now I can identify it better the next time it happens.

Right.

And that it's not just me.

Right?

Like, I think, like, I was just recently having a conversation with someone, had experienced this dynamic, and I realized that the person engages with other people that way as well.

Because again, I think it's like, well, did I do everything right?

Did I do something to offend this person?

Is it that they don't like me?

Or is it something about me and being able to put it in a bigger context and say, oh, no, that's just racism.

That's just racism.

That's sexism.

That's misogynoir.

Like, that's, that's what that is.

And it doesn't have anything to do with me as an individual.

We're all just kind of living in a system, right?

We're all living in a context, and that context is acting on all of us all the time.

No, totally agree.

And it's interesting that you.

Well, interesting that you use it in the terms of having language.

One of the things when we talked last time that we talked about with some of the terms that people are using now, some may call it overused, which it could be, but I also think that a lot of times we haven't really defined what these things mean.

So I think we were discussing on the last podcast, like microaggressions.

Can you kind of break down what a microaggression really is, what it looks like?

Cause I think I might be using it wrong.

Oh, interesting.

So I will say that the term was coined by Doctor sue s u e, I believe, maybe in the nineties.

I'm not sure exactly.

But there's an article that people can read that has a whole sort of list of different types of microaggressions.

And the definition is that it's a slight.

Right.

That it is a sort of a small thing that happens to someone.

Like, for example, when someone says to a person who's asian, where are you from?

And the person is asian.

They were born in this country, but they're ethnically asian.

And a person just assumes or you don't have an accent, where are you from?

So it's the, I think the reason that they use the word micro is because they are everyday things that happen to us that make you say, is that just, you know, sort of second guess yourself?

Cause there's the blatant stuff, right?

There's the.

Just out there, you're using the n word or.

But that stuff is nothing, at least for me.

And I think for most of us in this country, it's not as common.

It's the little stuff that I think can really kind of undermine our sort of our self esteem, our sense of self worth.

And that the thing about, you know, the term microaggression sort of technically, is that it is an indicator of a bigger theme.

Right?

And so, like, one of the sort of.

And I'm going from memory, so I could be getting some of the words wrong, but one of the themes of microaggressions is this sense of, you don't belong here.

Ah, right.

So underneath, when you walk into an office and someone says, oh, I need to see the manager, it's a slight, like, oh, I am the manager.

There's the underneath message is, you don't belong here.

You are not what a manager looks like.

And so you take that to a bigger scale and you've got Trayvon Martin, right?

But the sort of micro version of it is when someone is looking for the manager, and it's like, no, I'm actually the person who's in charge.

An example that I use often.

It's sort of a silly one, but I teach, as you said, at schools of social work.

And as an adjunct professor, I'm not very present.

I come, I do my class, I go out about my business.

But one year, I had to fill out a paper and give it to the secretary and with the administrative person, and it was like just my class roster, right?

I just had to sign off that everybody who was signed up for the class was coming to the class.

So I went over and I gave her the paper, and she looked up at me and she said, oh, are you handing this in for Professor Jackson?

And I said, I am Professor Jackson.

And she sort of looked at me and she said, oh, you just look so young.

Right, exactly.

You can't see the face that you just made.

But it's like, that's not what it was, sis, like, you know?

And so think about all of the first.

The first piece of that is that I knew because I knew this woman did not know me.

And as I was walking over to her desk, I was prepared for something.

I didn't know what it was going to be, but I was sort of, like, geared up a little bit, that we could have an interaction.

And so my blood pressure is already a little bit up.

And then she's questioning my credentials and questioning my identity.

And then when I.

Same thing to her, except I am Professor Jackson, and then she sort of glosses it over and says, oh, but it's just that you look young.

And that, I think, is where.

Cause you mentioned before gaslighting.

That's a little bit of the gaslighting piece, right?

Is that like, questioning your experience?

And that wasn't blatant with her because I didn't say anything to her to indicate that I knew that she was being racist, but she knew.

She knew enough to know, so she sort of covered her tracks before we could even get there.

So that whole process.

And this is maybe a little bit out of the scope of this conversation, but when I think about black women being more likely to die of breast cancer than white women, right.

When I think about infant mortality, when I think about black women being more likely to die in childbirth or to have some part of that is the energy that we're using to be in the world all the time.

I read something years ago that said that black women are, I think, three times more likely at that time to have a low birth weight baby, which we know has lots of implications for a child's life.

And that the only thing that they could figure out as a difference between black women and white women and Latinas was that black women, their adrenaline and cortisol were going up in their experiences with their doctors because they were preparing for a racist encounter.

And so that costs us, like, there's this term weathering, right?

That's like, on a cellular level, talking about, you know, black women as two black women.

But you also can extend that to other marginalized identities, right?

Thinking about being a black trans woman, that you have to be always prepared for what's going to happen.

Imagine, yes.

It costs you something.

You know, that is a.

You know, I didn't think about that.

That actually is amazing to think about because that probably is one of the things.

And you just carry this natural anxiety in your body, not knowing what you're going to expect or how people are going to be receptive to you or you are not, but you're trying to figure out how is this going to come out or how is it going to show this particular setting, right?

You tell me if this is microaggression or not, because I'm curious if you are in a room.

Let's say I'm in a room full of white males and I'm the one woman and people are, or let's say it's not even a room full of people.

It's three people, and this particular person keeps calling the other two people names.

So if it's me, Jan and Mike, and they're like, you know, you know, Jan, you know, Jan, almost to suggest that I'm talking to Jan, I'm not talking.

Is that considered a microaggression when someone's just really making it very apparent that they don't think you need to be here?

Yeah, I mean, I think we talked about this a little bit.

So, short answer.

Yes, I think we talked about this a little bit on the first episode of this, that it's one of the reasons that I sort of struggle with the term microaggression because the sort of prefix micro suggests that it's something as small.

And ibram Kendi uses the phrase racial abuse.

And if that feels dramatic.

Yeah.

But I actually think in some ways it's more accurate because if you've been in an abusive relationship, you know that it's not always the big stuff.

Right.

It's the little stuff that really kind of wears you down.

And so there's so much in, I'm not calling your name, I'm not giving you humanity.

Yes.

I'm in some ways kind of almost dismissing you from the conversation.

And another way that that can happen is eye contact.

I had a white woman do something to me today in the parking lot and she like, cut me off to park somewhere.

And I was in my feelings, so I sort of sat there and, you know, waited for her to, she never looked at me.

She never looked at me.

She knew that you were looking at her.

Yes.

And so it's a way, it's a subtle way of dehumanizing.

Yes.

You know, and then those of us who are on the other end of it, it's like, so what do I need to do to show up in this room?

And I think that sometimes is where the overperforming can come from.

Right, let's talk about that.

Yeah, I gotta have all my I's dotted and all my t's crossed and I can't make any kind of mistake and I can't because I know that I'm already entering into this space with people expecting either less of me or just kind of expecting me to make a mistake.

And so on top of being braith for having to say, like, I'm here too, you know, I want to be part of the conversation.

Then I'm on ten because I'm trying to sort of insert myself and make sure that people know that I'm here and that I'm making a valuable contribution.

And that's exactly too.

It is.

And that often I feel like is the time where it comes in that, oh, this person's being aggressive or she's being aggressive or she's doing whatever, but it's like, well, she got to push her way in, because otherwise I have to acknowledge that I'm even there.

So now I have to insert.

And it feels like a fight for me.

Oftentimes, I'm feeling fight or flight.

Meaning either I'm going to push.

Insert myself and push in to your point, over perform to make you think that I'm competent, or I'm just going to say, I don't even care.

Yes, yes, yes.

Forget it.

Because why am I doing this with you today?

You know?

Right.

Yeah, no, that's real.

And I definitely am thinking about an organization that I do some work with, and there's a black woman who is basically like, yeah, I see all this stuff that's happening, and, like, I'm not trying to fight it.

You know, just.

I don't have the energy.

I see it, they don't see it.

It's fine.

And there's sort of a resignation, which I completely understand, because you have to pick your battles.

And that's part of it, too, is like, am I going to say something about this?

Exactly.

I always say, how much is it really worth to me?

I ask myself, is it worth it?

Yes.

Maybe not.

How many times am I going to have to work with you?

Right, right.

And one of the things that I think about, because I was thinking about, oh, yeah.

What are.

Rebecca, what are some microaggressions you've experienced in the workplace?

And I had a colleague who was my.

He was my boss, a white man.

And I was sitting in the basement, which is where our office was in.

The lights were off, but it was like, nine in the morning, so not a lot of light in the basement, but also, like, not pitch black.

And he walked in and he was like, oh, you like to sit down here with the lights off, but nobody can see you if the lights are off.

And I know this man.

He and I are friends.

Spoiler alert.

I ended up being his boss when it was all said and done, but that's a conversation for a different day.

But I was like, I could tell by the look on it.

Cause I looked up at him and I could tell by the look on his face that he knew he had said something dumb and offensive, but he couldn't get out of his own way.

But the reason that I ended up going into his office later and saying something is because there was a younger black woman who I was working with at the time.

And I thought to myself, what if she was here and she saw that interaction and I, a, saw that I didn't say anything to him, but then b, what if he says something like that to her?

And so for me, sometimes the thought is not just about me, but also about those who are coming behind me or around me or after me.

That, like part of my, and this cost something.

It's not to say that it's without a cost.

That part of my job in a space, and I feel like we might have talked about this before too, is about making room for other people.

I want other black women to be able to come into this space and feel like they can be themselves.

And so part of how I'm doing that is modeling.

And modeling when I need to push back.

And also, that's a choice that I make.

And it's not always an easy choice to make, but it's part of my calculus for when I choose to say something and when I don't.

Yeah, agree.

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Today.

You went a little bit into gaslighting, but give me a little bit more on what is really like, when is it gaslighting?

And when it's just like, oh, this person just really doesn't know any better.

Right?

I know.

And it's such a.

It is one of those terms that's become trendy.

So, you know, the definition that I would use is when someone tries to discount your experience and you know what your experience is, but someone else is like, nope, it wasn't that.

That's not.

No, that's not what it was.

So a workplace example, and I think this fits again.

A couple years ago, white boss, white immediate boss and white, you know, big boss.

And there was some controversy with a white person.

Not controversy, but a situation that a white person had mismanaged.

And in a meeting I said, I think we need to talk about that.

And the big boss was like, we can talk about that in a couple of weeks.

And I said, you said that last week.

What do you mean?

He's got a whole other week to get himself together and figure things out.

So, like, in a subtle way, if I didn't say anything, she would have just said, oh, yeah, let's give him some more time.

Like, no big deal.

But I'm like, wait a second.

I'm pushing this issue and you are trying to make it seem like there's something else that's happening.

So that's maybe not the best example, but when you know, oh, no, you've dismissed me.

You have ignored what I've been saying.

I'm giving you documents, I'm giving you receipts, I'm giving you whatever.

And it's like, well, but we just need one more thing.

Well, but you didn't do this or you didn't do that.

And then just the straight up making excuses for people.

Oh, I'm sure he didn't mean that.

You know how so and so is, yeah, they don't know any better.

But don't they not have home training?

But to me they sort of gaslight.

Part of that is you're dismissing my experience.

Yeah, I'm telling you, regardless of what his intention was, I'm telling you that I feel belittled by this person.

I'm telling you that every time I'm in a meeting with this person and they don't look at me, they don't make eye contact, they don't say my name, and I'm telling you how that makes me feel and what that experience is for me.

And your response is to protect them.

Yeah, no, totally agree.

And that's one of the things I tell people, and that's the aligning of your intention and your impact.

I'm like, just because that wasn't your intention does not mean that that's not the impact you made.

And when you try to ignore the impact and just focus on, well, this is what I meant, then you're invalidating someone else's experience because no matter what you mentioned, that's not what happened for them.

And so then who are we focusing on?

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I do, I think that part of the message that that sends, going back to sort of the definition of technical definition of microaggressions, the underlying message is your feelings don't matter, your experience doesn't matter.

And connected to that, I think, is you don't belong here.

Right.

Like, if my feelings don't matter, my experience doesn't matter, and I can't be safe here, then you're telling me that I'm not of value.

And I just think that.

And again, you know, talking specifically about black women, but we can broaden this to other women of color and people with other marginalized identities, that we are living in a world that is always telling us that we don't belong and that we don't matter.

Yeah.

And it takes effort to just exist in that world and resist those messages and take up space and to, you know, own our power and own our identity.

And then we have people in the workplace, you know, that are intentionally sometimes and often, more often than not, unintentionally, you know, denying and belittling our experience, which I know is something that I said the last time about having other people of color in your space.

And sometimes that's not.

That can't be in your actual workplace, but it's finding them outside of that to say, oh, no, it's not you.

That happened to me.

I can relate, and we can support each other in that.

So how do you have these conversations and this, I don't know the right way to say this right language.

And both protect you in that conversation in the other person.

Like, when you go to a person and say, this offended me, and they start crying, and now it's about them, oh, I'm so distraught, or it's another woman of color.

And she's like, we, you know, sisters, we should be in this together.

And it turns into this whole, like, you want me to console you, right when I'm telling you you offended me?

Right, right.

Oh, my goodness.

I mean, how do you tell her, like, you turned this thing, right.

I mean, I think that's part of the calculus that you were saying earlier.

Is, is it worth it?

Like, am I going to be more upset by this woman?

Because I know that that's what she does.

And so I just kind of want to avoid it altogether.

That might be a decision that you make.

It's another opportunity for.

And I've done this plenty of times in my work, getting to know another white person and being like, this thing happened.

I had a white person make a comment in a meeting in public about sort of a bad reference that somebody gave me from a previous job.

And he had never said this to me specifically.

And then he said it out in public.

Whoa.

And I said something to him, but I also got a white person in the organization, and I was like, you need to talk to him about this because that was inappropriate.

And I'm not going to bend over backwards to, like.

I mean, my email was, you need to know that this was the impact that that had.

I don't want to talk about it.

I'm not going to talk about it with you.

You just need to know that this is the impact that you had.

And then I sort of.

Right.

And some people can.

Thankfully, he was a person who could handle that kind of correspondence, and he was apologetic.

But there definitely are instances when I won't say anything, and I'll just say, you saw that happen to a white ally, a white friend.

Can you say something?

Cause I'm tired.

That's good.

And that's how you try.

You really figure out who really are allies, too.

I think for me that is because if you ask someone to speak up for you and they come to waffle.

Well, don't worry about it.

What do you meant?

Are you sure?

You know, you're gonna need this person later on.

You don't want to ruin the relationship.

And I'm at the point now I'm like, relationship be damned.

Right, right.

Cause it's your mental health and your well being that's at stake.

Right, right.

So, yeah, you're right.

That's a good way to suss our allies.

And who notices things and who doesn't?

And who says after something happens, like, I noticed that set aside and such.

Well, then why don't you, like what?

Yeah.

Have the conversation right now.

I gotta do a training to help you figure out what to do.

I will say, though, the dynamic when it's another woman of color, in some ways, I think is worse.

It is very much so.

And that's often what I experience more than anything, actually.

Yeah, I think that's worse and harder to.

Because a lot of times these days, like, there's enough white people, many of them have enough of an awareness.

Right.

Of racism.

And so they might not always react well.

But I do think that people of color, we are not as adept at this point.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but, like.

And being able to call our own stuff with each other and because we've internalized it, too, that's the thing, right?

We've taken that into all of the racial messages, and we are projecting that often projecting that and spewing that out on each other.

I mean, I'm sure you have people in your life.

I do.

Mostly older people who are like, see, that's why I don't work with black people.

Because you can't trust them, because they don't do a good job, because they don't.

Or the inverse.

That's why I always.

Fortunately, yes.

I don't.

My uncle says that he's in his eighties.

He's like, yeah, that's why I don't hire black people to do them, those kind of jobs.

I mean, you need a white person, and it's funny.

And also like, oh, wow, you've taken in.

You really think that you internalize that it's a thing.

Yes.

And that's harder to, I think, suss out for people to be able to push, to point out the fact that your treatment of me is a reflection of internalized racial ideas.

And you've hurt me.

And I think you're right that the instinct is we gonna stick together.

Yeah.

Well, now we're sticking together exactly what.

Happened an hour ago.

Seriously, we're saying that thing that you didn't think was going to give back to me.

You weren't thinking together then, but now you're like, we're sisters.

That really gets under my skin.

Oh, my God.

Well, it's painful because, you know, we all do the sort of the look around, right.

When you get into a space or if you're applying for a job, you look at the website, how many people of color are there?

And have the expectation that, oh, I'm going to find some allies.

I'm going to find some solidarity and to be let.

Because we don't really expect solidarity from white people.

Nope.

So it's not disappointing.

I mean, it can be, but it's not.

Our expectations are disappointing, where you're like, hey, I think we're going to vibe.

And then when we don't, it's like, well, that was a letdown, right?

And we don't have to be friends, but, yeah, we should.

We should have each other's backs in these types of situations, and we often do not.

Absolutely.

Oh, my goodness, Rebecca, this is always an amazing conversation.

And that almost led us into.

I'm not going to lead us into another topic, but I was thinking, as we're talking about that, we'll talk about another time.

It's like, respectability politics, too.

When we talked about, you know, people who have.

And I know that I am a player in respectability politics, and I often have conversations with myself, like, okay, Felicia, are you being, you know, respectable now?

You know?

Well, I think we should cover that.

Listen, guys, revenge might be back season three.

We might be talking respectively.

She's gonna be a seasoned regular.

I would love that.

I would love that.

I've been questioning my cell phone a lot.

Like, are you playing respectability politics?

Becoming older?

I used to be the youngest person in the workplace.

Now I'm not.

You're like, is that just your way because of when you came up, or is there really a theme?

So, yeah, that's real.

That's very real, especially generationally.

Can I tell a story really quickly that's kind of related to that?

So I supervised a team comprised mostly of black women.

And one day, one of them wore something that was, I would say as my 46 year old self, that it was inappropriate.

Like, a little, you know, too much skin.

And we had a new boss who's a black woman, and she came to me one day, and she was like, I don't ever want to see that again.

I'm about to enforce a dress code.

And I was like, I tell you, the Aries fire spirit in me rose up because I was like, what we are not going to do is police black women's bodies.

We're not going to do it.

Like.

And that.

That's your impetus.

I didn't say it to her in that way, but I've said very forcefully, like, this is a thing that black women are dealing with all the time.

We're being toned.

Police.

Our bodies are being policed.

Our attire is being policed.

Our hair is being policed.

Like, let's not lead with rules now.

I went to my direct report, and I was like, can you not wear that shirt again?

Because it kind of was inappropriate.

Right?

Like, it was not the best thing to wear in the workplace.

But I'm also, like, so holding that balance, I think, of sort of the respective politics, the appropriateness for a professional environment, what that means.

And I want everybody to be free, right.

Especially when I have black women who are reporting to me.

Like, I want to do everything I can to create a better work environment for you, a better world for you, a better place for you, and also, like, you probably shouldn't be showing that much skin.

And that too.

And that too.

Right.

And just being able to kind of hold all of that balance.

But it was the boss, I think, was really aligned with white supremacy.

Right.

And sort of like, the instinct was, I'm gonna make a rule to prevent that from ever happening again.

That's probably not the answer.

Yeah, we gotta dig into this thing.

Cause you might wanna shake your finger at me when you're done, too.

Some of it raises up, like, oh, my God.

I'm like, I get it.

I totally.

I mean, I have this conversation with executive directors all the time about, like, dress code and professionalism and what is it, and what does it mean?

And I'm a preacher's kid.

Like, my mother told me I wasn't fully dressed cause I didn't have on a necklace the other day.

Like, I mean, I get it.

And it is for those of us who have ascended to positions of leadership and are kind of shaping the way for the next person, I think it does give us a responsibility to really think about, what's this about?

Where does this come from?

Where did I get this?

Is it just me?

Is it just to hold all that?

And it's complicated.

It is complicated.

But to your point, searching to the roots of it, is it true?

Is it something that I'm just holding, or is it really true?

And who gets to decide what is appropriate and not as appropriate?

And how are we teaching them to come up in the world?

How am I shaping as the next leader?

What am I telling them?

And am I telling them something that's wrong?

Because maybe it's not a big idea.

Maybe it's just my personal thoughts about how things should go.

I know we're going to dive into.

It's a lot of work.

We're going to dive into.

I don't have any answers.

As a friend of mine says, I don't have any answers.

I just have more questions.

But I think that it's worth.

But to me, that's the root.

Like, that's the meat, right?

It's like, we don't have to come up with answers, but let's talk about it.

Let's kind of pull it out, question.

Our thinking, question why we choose to do a thing.

Because if we're going to raise the next generation of leaders, we have to not make them robots and rules and do this or do that, but just really think through how to be passionate, empathetic, but also to know that there are some rules to this role.

So how do we, how do we do that in a way that's not icky or shutting someone down?

Rebecca, thank you so much.

I'm so glad to be with you again.

And you're going to be with us again.

Tell the audience again how they can find you if they wanted to reach out to you.

What a great question.

So I am.

By the time this airs, probably my website will be up, which is loveseedpractice.org.

all one word.

I know.

And they can also find me on LinkedIn.

And they can find me on.

On your website.

Yes.

You can find my website.

All the things.

Yes.

Thank you so much.

And again, every time I learn so much and I'm excited for us to get together again.

We're forming.

We're building a bond.

I'm starting a podcast soon, and I'm going to have you on.

It'd be my first podcast invite.

Really?

Yes.

I do a podcast.

That'd be my first time being invited to one.

Oh, yeah.

I would love to talk to you about what it means to sort of be building and creating opportunities for black women to be rising into leadership.

Like, I just think that there's so much.

I mean, we might have to just do three or four episodes to talk about that.

Yeah, there's a lot in there, but it's all passion, to your point.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

And I look forward to us in whatever, various ways that we get together again.

Yes, I'm excited today.

This is the last episode of season two.

We're going to take a two week break.

We'll be back at the beginning of November.

But again, until you see us again, keep climbing, keep rising, and I will see you guys again soon.

Thanks for tuning into the climb podcast.

If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate and review us on wherever you listen to podcasts for updates and behind the scenes content.

Make sure you're following us on Instagram and LinkedIn oindecline until next time, keep climbing and keep thriving, sis.

See you next episode.