Ep 434 - The Grief of Narcissistic Relationships Tanya-Marie Dubé

Episode 434 • 20th July 2023 • The Grief Code • Ian Hawkins

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request, if any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. Something you may not know. The PTSD, that somebody experiences going through a narcissistic relationship is the equivalent to the PTSD that people experience going to war. This is this has been Tanya Marie do Bay's experience having lived in such a relationship, dealing with so many different challenges from it, and then the aftermath. What I would also love is that when she eventually got a coach, the coach was unpacking some of those things that she had experienced and just gently pointed out that maybe this is what you're supposed to be doing. You've got a master's in overcoming adversity. And these challenges, maybe you're meant to be helping other people who have been through the same to me if you're looking for purpose and trying to work out where it lies at Learn lies in your own story in this interview with Tanya Murray is a great example of that. If you've if you're an empath, or you've experienced any sort of narcissism, you're gonna take so much gold out of this. I learned a heap from it. I'm sure you will, too. Enjoy. Everyone. And please welcome this week's guest tenure Murray Dubay. Tanya, how are you?

Unknown Speaker 2:31

I'm well, thank you. How are you?

Ian Hawkins 2:33

Going? Very well. Thank you. Thank you for coming on.

Speaker 2 2:38

Thank you. This is awesome. I love being here. Thank you so much for having me.

Ian Hawkins 2:42

Very cool. And I love getting to speak to people all over the world. Random connection on Facebook, I can't even remember what the crossover was. But I had a quick look at what you do. And I'm like, Oh, this is something that that my to my audience needs to hear about. And specifically, I think what it was it drew me to you was You talk a lot about narcissism and the impact that has for people, particularly if they Well, actually, I'll let you explain that. But my understanding was always like, particularly for people who are particularly empathetic sort of people tend to attract more of that. And I know for my audiences, that the be a huge percentage of the listeners who would fall into that category. And they, I imagine, most, if not all of them would have had some experience with narcissistic behavior. So so please tell us a little bit about your experience with exactly that, please.

Speaker 2 3:42

Sure. Yeah, I'd love to I see, I specifically work with women entrepreneurs and leaders and CEOs, and you know, women who have businesses who are going through the process of healing from a narcissistic relationship. So the way that I think about it is, we have to go backwards a little bit to see where these things started, right? Like, like where the seeds were planted? And I always say, Yes, we are going through something with a narcissist. Now, this is what we're going through right now. And all the things that come with that, which I'll get into in a little bit, but, but I always want to go back and just see where this began so that we can understand our patterns of behavior. So for me personally, I was born into the foster care system. I mean, I've got all the markings of someone who, you know is, you know, sort of put on the path to run into these kinds of people it feels like anyway, but I was born into the foster care system. And I lived in seven different homes by the time I was two years old. And when I was two, I moved into the eighth home with a family who would then keep me for eight years. So from to until 10 years old, I got to live with this family. And you know, these are really our formative years. So I was able to, you know, they were grandparents age, so I'll often refer to them as my nanny and my papa or my grandparents because I grew up with their grandchildren. But, you know, I got these tremendous values and morals for my life through these people who became my compass later on in life. I will say, though, that when I was 10, I was relocated to live with my birth mother. And she had married a man who was a pedophile. And he was violent, verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, you know, psychologically, always threatening. That there, right, there seems to be, I mean, we could go a little further into the childhood part of it. But that right, there seems to be the catalyst for you know, the thing that would open me up to all these narcissistic relationships that took off from there. So that's where, you know, I learned to really, I learned survival skills, like how to keep the peace and how to watch my every move to be super heightened. You know, my awareness was super heightened, my awareness was always around what was going on in the room, where the exits were in the room, how quickly I would need to leave, you know, for years, I wouldn't take off my shoes when I went into new environment, because I was always afraid that I'd have to run out know, massive and massive, I then I will say this, you know, when I was 12 years old, after, you know, dealing with all of this abuse, I decided that it would be better for me to leave and I ran away i This is a little bit graphic, can I get a little graphic, of course, I was 12 years old, and my mother, I was in her home. Didn't remember quite what I was doing, that I was making. I was making dinner. But something had happened in between. And my sister was too and my mother had just had some kind of episode and she'd beat me up really badly. Like, was choking me I was beaten really badly. And I all I could think of was I'd saved $18. And it was in my mattress upstairs in my room. And if I could just get to that money, I could take my sister and we could run away together. And I was standing at the door, I had the money in my pocket. And I was standing at the front door. And my mother had said, if you are thinking of leaving and taking your sister, I'll find you and I'll kill you. And all I heard was run. So I ran I ran for it. And I started living on and off the streets at 12 years old. I was a very academic child, it meant everything to me that I finished my education. Yeah, and so there I was, you know, it was on and off the streets for six years until I was 18 years old, just trying to finish school and just trying to make a living, trying to stay safe. You know, I've lived in every way that I possibly could. I've lived in cars, I've lived on church bathroom floors, I've lived in basements of my friend's houses under beds and closets. You know, I went through so much as a child. And I really do believe that this is where, you know, my, my foster parents coming in became my compass for my life. You know, and so I was able to sneak in and out of places I was able to stay on scene, you know, and my biggest thing, again, was just getting in and out of school. Like I just really wanted to finish my education. I will say something else on that topic if that's okay. I when I was 12 years old, I was sitting on a hill. And I remember watching my school bus down below. This was in Calgary, Alberta, watching my school bus leave the bus that I would have been on to go home and I saw it go down and it was straight after school. And I remember thinking, what am I going to do? Like, how am I going to survive this? This is wild, like what am I going to do with this? I'm going to die, someone's going to steal me. I'm gonna I'm 12 years old and something. You know, I remember I was sitting behind a church on a hill. And I remember something just popped into my head. And, and it was the idea was just hold on till you're 18 Just hold on till you're 18 Wow. And so I made the decision to just just go. And I've always been so strongly connected to my intuition that, you know, if I felt like I should go right, I would go right. If I felt like I should go left, I would go left stop. I would stop if I felt like I had to go back home wherever that was, for a quick second. Like whatever it was I just listened to the was like the command almost right? Yeah. So this is for me personally, you know, and the women who who come to me, we all seem to have something in common there. There's like a through line in the childhood trauma. Right? There's a lot there's like this through line that connects us all. And it's it's almost like I'm a beacon for this because I've been through it and other women who have been through this. Find me, you know, this way. And I think it's in the language it has to be in the words that I'm using because I've been through that. But, but it's really interesting. So in the work that I do, I'm in the narcissistic recovery stage, right? So you're just getting out of this relationship and you're trying to figure it out and you don't know what it means and you don't know why you were picked for this. You don't understand. You know any of it. You feel foolish You're embarrassed, it's humiliating all of those things. In that moment moving forward. This is where we do the real work. And it has nothing to do with the narcissist. Yeah, yes. So this is the power of this work is that going within and healing all these wounds that have been left wide open by all of this childhood grief and all of this childhood trauma, you know, and this is this is how we make a life for ourselves. This is how we can design this life and CO create. Love it,

Ian Hawkins: 10:26

if you will. Yeah, and, and that really ties in nicely with a lot of the messages that I like to share around. Those things happened. Ultimately, it's gonna come back to you about taking that responsibility. Now, for someone who's left at 12, like you've learned having to be responsible, earlier, and in a more intense way than then I think, just well, any person I know. But I'm curious. Well, a few different things from from that initial part of the story. But just those first few days and weeks, like, where did you go? How did you survive by just basics right, the basic needs of human shelter and food?

: 11:16

Well, the first so I leave the house and I'm running down the street and my mother cheered her promise chased me down the road. I was very fast. I went on later, you know, like one year or one year later, I was still in school. And I would become the fastest runner in three categories, and track and field and all of Alberta. And I was able to run with the Olympic torch because of it. So I was a runner. And I was able to run so I ran out ran her and we lived on a cul de sac and I ran her and I ran for blocks and blocks blocks to my elementary school and there was a bus stop there bus, like just a place to sit with a shelter. And I hid underneath the bench. I saw my mother in her car driving around looking for me and I just stayed put it and I think I was under there for hours. So now, I ran across the road when the sun started to go down. And this old lady let me use her phone. And yeah, I called a friend from school. And her mother said to come immediately, and where was I could I take the train. And so I did, I took the train at $10 It took the train and I went to her house. And I was able to stay there for about a month. And then that didn't work out with the daughter. And then I was on my own on my own. So I remember one of my very first one of my very like the scary thing this was the scary thing that got me behind the church on the Hill was that I had found this this overgrown tree, and you couldn't see through it like the tree came all the way down to the pine needles that were all dried up on the on underneath the tree. I climbed inside there and I was just like, freaked right out. I didn't know what the heck I was gonna do. And I looked over and a little hollow in this tree was the sign and it said home sweet home and I thought oh my god, someone lives here. I just didn't know what I was going to do so. So that was that I stayed there all night. And then I didn't sleep. And then I got up in the morning and I headed for my school. And nobody knew.

Ian Hawkins: 13:24

Again, curious and maybe not relevant for the story, but I'm just gonna go with my curiosity. At some point, there has to be a conversation with the family or living with about it not working out. But but as a parent, like, I could never fathom just casting a child at that age of side. So how did that all unfold? And,

: 13:49

sure, the mother. So there was animosity with the girl, you know, 12 year old girls, I don't know what it is, but they can sometimes have a really hard time getting along. The mother really took me under her wing. And she was really protective of me. And she had called my mother she had decided that my mother must care about me and must want to know where I am. So she caught I said, please don't do. And she had called my mother anyway. And so my mother had come to the house. And this woman was like ready to fight my mother like It was wild. And my stepfather was there as well. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. It seems really like it seems kind of like really low low vibe kind of stuff. But But this woman was a woman of integrity. And she could not believe that a mother and a stepfather would do this to their child like she took that. So personally. I don't think that I don't think that I told her I was going to leave that the daughter and I would had problems and I'd had a diary and she'd have exposed my diary to these other girls at school and it just wasn't a safe place for me to be anymore. So, you know, I talked to her years later, you know, but But yeah, at that point, and I mean, I think I was just looking for where I can be safe and it wasn't there.

Ian Hawkins: 15:07

Yeah, absolutely. Because at that age safeties, yes, there's a physical aspect. But as I imagined, heading into puberty, but just that age in general, finding yourself, emotional safety and mental safety is so important, right?

: 15:23

I think it was more of a biological thing. Like the animal in me was preserving myself somehow, like, I just needed to get out of there for the rest of my years, you know, and once I got to be 16 years old, I knew that I could emancipate myself from the foster care system. And I knew, you know, in all of my research, again, I was a straight A student, I was very academic. And I knew that at that point, if I could take myself out of school, nobody could force me back into the foster care system. So that's what I did. I waited till I was 16. And then I went to speak with my guidance counselor, and I explained what I had been going through for all those years, and he cried, and I cried, and he didn't want me to leave school. He told me, I was gonna get emotional. And I'm like, I'm getting emotional. So when I was leaving, he gave me this university 101 psychology textbook, and he was like, I need you to, to keep this. And I was like, You have no idea how much therapy I've had to have in my entire life being, you know, raised in foster care, I don't need it. And he said, Just take it, and I took it. And so now fast forward a little bit, you know, I was now I had my own apartment, and I had a job. And I'm sitting on the floor of my kitchen, and I have no furniture, but I'm thrilled to pieces that I have shelter, and it's mine, and I'm paying for it. And I have this little tiny table, and it's got a pink ghetto blaster on it, and some tape sitting around. And there's this book, and I thought that guy was eating like noodles, Asian noodles, whatever. But, um, but uh, yeah, all of a sudden, I just felt compelled to read this book. And the funniest thing happened, I would read a chapter of this book. And then I would be at the bus stop. And I would meet someone who needed that exact information that I had just read. And I was like, This is crazy. So as the law of attraction would have it, I started to coach at 17 years old, right? Oh, yeah. And then what I found in that, and it's something I hold firm to this day, is, you know, whatever it is that we are going through in life, you know, just, if you open yourself up, and you help somebody who needs it, it puts everything you're going through into perspective. And it's not. It's not so bad, right? It's not so bad. Yeah. And then we get into gratitude for the things that we have, and for what's working and putting yourself in the service space for other people, plus, having gratitude plus focusing on, you know, the solution and not the problem. I mean, your whole life comes together that way. So yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 17:46

amazing. From that night, under the pine tree, to then, four years later, again, like how did you find shelter? How did you find food? How did you survive? Yeah,

: 18:05

I'll tell you, I begged for money. I learned really, really young that if you can dress the part to some degree, and you can hold yourself together, even when times are tough. If you ask people for help, they will help you. But you don't just say do you have 25 cents? You say? Could you Could you spare 25 cents, because and you give a reason why? It's really, really young. And so people would see me, you know, I don't know, they would help me, not everybody, they would help me I refuse to sit on the street, I would not sit on the street, I I was not going to be at the mercy of people. Like I had done something wrong. I was surviving for my life. And I didn't put myself there. And I'm not saying that anyone who puts himself there shouldn't get help. But for me, personally, I was like, this is temporary. This is temporary. This is temporary. That's all I kept telling myself to ask for shelter. You know, where I could sleep, I would take the spot I would hide no one would find me. I wasn't out visible. I didn't want to get hurt. You know, but there was a lot of times I'd be knocking on a friend's window, their basement window in the middle of the night and I climbed through the window. You know, like this was my life. Sometimes it didn't work out that way. And I would stay in my friend's parents car. Secretly. You know, sometimes I would stay in a church bathroom. You know, like it just wherever I could find a space to sleep. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 19:30

Amazing. You said there was an urge to take your sister did you did you live with any guilt of of not taking her?

: 19:42

You know what I didn't because my mother had also been raised in foster care her whole entire life and so she had all this trauma and grief and just completely unprocessed like she just never had the tools to process any of it and you know, She hooked me into foster care, you know that her I think her biggest, like, can't say I think I believe her biggest desire in life was to have a family. So when she married this man, they bought this beautiful house, there was a white picket fence, there was money now, you know, she had my sister, and it was the perfect family and I was the piece that didn't fit. So she treated my sister very differently than she treated me and my sister has always had such a great relationship with her mother and her father, you know, and I don't try to tarnish that I don't try to take that away from her my experience is my experience. And I've learned to process it and to be okay with it and to deal with it and to, you know, survive through it by helping other people go through the same thing. But, but no, my sister, my sister had a really good life with them. It's so fascinating to me.

Ian Hawkins: 20:49

Yeah, that is, and what's your relationship with your sister? Now?

: 20:54

We were estranged for a little while, but you know, only because of, you know, things. Well, you know, it's because of my stepfather. And really, but, but he's passed away, and we were able to come back together, and now we're stronger than ever. We're still rebuilding the relationship, but it's a lot of I love us, and I missed you. And, you know, we're back together. And through things like this, when I'm interviewed, I talk about this stuff. So openly. And I had been doing so before she came back into my life. But But yeah, it's hard for her to hear. Sometimes, because I never shared it with her. I never ever told her any of this stuff before. Because I do believe and I did the same thing with my children when I was going through my divorce. My experience is my experience, your experience is your experience. Like, like, it doesn't have to be the same thing, right? Like, I'm very spiritual. And I believe that our soul path is to go through these experiences and to take the lesson, but I do believe that it's to help other people. And so my soul path is going to be different than everybody else's soul path. And I can't expect anybody just to jump on my bandwagon. You know, because I'm going in one direction. My children are also going in their own direction. That's what they're here for. But yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 22:03

100%. Yeah. And I love that. Because, well, for me, I grew up in a environment where control was a big thing. And I think for a lot of people of our generation experience that maybe, maybe your experience might be a bit different, because of because you weren't in that environment, but perhaps even in those in the foster environment. And then so that we pass that forth to our children trying to control every facet of their life. And ultimately, they work out pretty quickly that they can't be controlled in some areas. And the more we can give them that freedom to believe, and to know that their own journey is their own journey. To me, that's one of the great gifts we can give to our children, right?

: 22:51

I think so too. I love seeing them, you know, blossom and grow. And I think that, I think it's because I grew up in foster care with a foster father, who really told me the truth about my situation and told me the truth about my mother's journey, and all of her pain and the things that she was literally consumed by. And he made sure to tell me that it wasn't because of me, you know, so my relationship to the idea of that was never me. I mean, I did Chase her for a long time looking for her approval. I mean, this woman was everything to me as a child before she got married. I know, I was in foster care. And yes, she let me down a lot. But I loved her so much, you know, so So I wanted that approval and needed that approval. And what a lesson in there, right? It turned out at the end when she passed away that I didn't need her approval. And I didn't need her acceptance that it was just it was all it was all me. You know, and that's one of the conclusions that I've come to in my life is that, you know, yes, yes, we are victimized, you know, yes, these things do happen to us. And they're horrible. They're horrendous in some cases. And I've seen a lot of it. I've experienced a lot of it. But I think that I think that the real magic, though, is an understanding that how we think is what keeps it painful. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, I believe that how I think is going to affect how I feel, right? So if I wake up in the morning, and I've got zero money in my bank account, say like when I was 16 years old, or 19 years old, and still struggling to find my way or even when I was married and times were tough, and we were on one income. If I wake up in the morning, and I think oh my god, like I'm not gonna be able to make ends meet. How am I going to do this? This is so stressful. I just don't even think about it, you know, and then you get into drinking wine every night, like stuff like that. That thinking is going to depress my emotional state. And then my feeling is going to be that I'm not capable of handling the situation. Right. And so when I get into that kind of thinking, then I of course my actions that follow are going to be mediocre at best. You know, like this is enough. Well to relax and to not face our feelings, right? So so my thinking is I don't know if you're aware of this. And I can't get into great detail about this because I'm not an expert in this part. But our bodies regenerate any where between two months and 10 years, right? So it from parts of ourselves and our organs and whatever will regenerate themselves, your brain will not your memory will, but your brain will not. And I think neither to your eyeballs or whatever, but, but the rest of us literally changes fully every 10 years. And when we are holding on to the stories that happened to us, like they still just happened yesterday. And we're putting ourselves in the space to relive this over and over and over again and keeping it alive. When this new version of yourself never even experienced it. I mean, that is what keeps us stuck. Yeah, it's that, right? Yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 25:53

100%, and a lot more how you describe that it's the self perpetuating nature of our thinking. If we keep thinking the same thing, if we keep telling ourselves the same story, then of course, we'll invite in more of that. It's very much about changing the story. So for you, you've grown up in this foster system. I imagine one of the changes in stories is around family and what what you desire to have in your life. So so how do you go from that age of? Like, did you did you? jump too far ahead? Did you go straight into finding work? Like, how did you get from? Yeah,

: 26:32

I started working, whatever kind of jobs that I could work at 12. I always looked older than my age, when I was younger. Now I look younger than my age a little bit. But when I was younger, I looked about three or four years older. And so I was able to lie my way through it. I mean, I was born in 1975. So for me to be you know, 12 years old to 1987 No one's looking at ID or anything like that. So wherever I could get a job, I got a job. So I've picked up areas, and I was detasseling, corn and cornfields. And, you know, whatever I could do for these jobs. I had no idea what to do. I didn't know what I was even capable of doing. And then when I turned 13, I was offered a job waitressing at this coffee shop. And I was like, absolutely. So I did the job. And I learned through being on the job, you know, everyone thought I was older, which, you know, I will say, when men, some men, when some men think that you are of age to flirt with and do all these weird, say these weird things to and you're really underage it is also traumatizing. But I just had to learn, and just focus on doing the job. And I literally my whole entire life have looked to women who are older than me to see how they were functioning, like how to be a woman really how to be a girl. And so if they just laughed it off, and I would just laugh it off. And if they, you know, got upset about something, then I would ask them why? And they would tell me and then I would understand that's the thing to get upset about. You know, like I would really, really pay attention to the people around me and look to them to be like my guiding light, I guess really? Five times. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 28:09

I imagine. Like I know, you see you did a good job of almost camouflaging yourself and staying hidden and but having those sorts of advances from males must have been too frequent in that sort of environment jumping from here to there and everywhere. Is that about right?

: 28:27

Yeah, I've had some really scary experiences with that, you know, when I was a few times, I mean, I can only count on one hand, but a few times, I had the feeling like I didn't know what sex trafficking was. But I had the feeling something weird was happening by the body language and the questioning me, you know, so I would never tell anyone, I didn't have a home like I would never tell anyone I didn't have anywhere to be. I don't know. I would just say I'm taking a nap or whatever. Like I would just I just nobody would know this about me unless they're my friends. And I'm knocking on their window to get inside because it's snowing and I need a place to sleep. Right? Like stuff like that. But yeah, where that did me really wrong. Being in that environment. So Young was later in life when I started to date, you know, and I didn't really understand as much as I understood human behavior from a survival aspect. And I really had like a sixth sense for a lot of those kinds of dangers. I did not understand narcissistic people. I did not understand that, that even I didn't even understand that people could be so low. Like I really didn't even get that yet. Even though I had been through all of that stuff. I just know, I just didn't I didn't get it. I didn't get the message. I didn't have any clue that that people could really be like that. So that's where it did me wrong in a way. I learned to turn off the advances and turn off the language and things that were being said to me that were inappropriate and I was wide open for the other stuff, right?

Ian Hawkins: 30:07

I guess the thing that sort of comes to mind there is, is that our experience is our experience. And we get incredible gifts and guidance and learning through that. And there's always a trade off, right? It's the up and the down low. I imagine you must have incredible resilience and the ability to deal with the most uncomfortable situations because walk in the park compared to what you've lived with. Yeah. But is that is that the kind of the antithesis is that then? Not now. But at the time was like attracting these other sorts of relationships that because you hadn't had any experience from that, then that's what presented going forward.

: 30:47

I think because I the way like, when I grew up in that one foster home from two until 10 years old, I become very introverted. I'm like an introverted extroverted person when I need to be, but I became very introverted. And so what that meant for me was that I learned how to, to go within, you know, I became a writer and a reader and I loved books. And I've really loved watching people and making up stories about their lives and where they're going, and all of that stuff. That kind of thing made me empathic, right? Like it made me like when I was wondering, like, it's so funny, when I was little, I'd watch a lady walking down the street with her, you know, grocery bags, and I would imagine where she's going, and I can picture her house. And maybe if she's married, and her children, and if she had pets and what they look like, and I would make up these whole stories about people that gave me so much compassion and empathy and in a different kind of a way. But that made me insatiably curious about people, right, later on, I would end up going to university, and I'm working now on my third degree, and psychology has been my thing, and I love I'm, like, in love with the idea of human behavior and why we do what we do. But back then what it did was it opened me up to be too curious to curious about the wrong guides of people too young, you know, so when I, you know, got into this narcissistic relationship, you know, this, this was my thinking, I will tell you, this was my thought. I thought I am lightyears ahead of him. I'm 22 years old. It's like I'm 40. With all my life experience, he's only 21 has never had anything happened to him. He doesn't know how to get a job and do all these things. So I trained him basically, I taught him everything that I knew. You know, by that point, when I was 22, I had been an executive assistant working in offices since I was 17 years old. And I was like, almost a senior level executive assistant at 22. Right, so I had all of this experience, and this is what I thought, he's kind of a jerk, but I can handle it. I've been through all of this stuff, I can handle it. So then when he was, you know, when he took it to the next level, I thought, I can handle this I can handle I can walk him through it, I can help him. That that is where That's where all of that went sideways. For me. I said wrong before. But I don't want to say wrong, because I do believe that, that we go through everything we go through because we have to trust the timing of our lives. And we're just supposed to these are our own lessons. Everyone has their own journey. Right. But that's where that took me this way. Right?

Ian Hawkins: 33:26

Yeah, I do. I was just having a conversation with my sister about this about like that the been the empath, and, and and over sensory, because what you described there I was the observer, as well as like, I'm looking at everything going on, but then we take in so much, and it becomes completely overwhelming. But we deal with it. And I remember, like, my first Kinesiologist saying, oh, like we had to clear some depression, and I've never been depressed. He goes, You have been since you were 15. But you've just dealt, you've found ways to cope with it and deal with it. And this is when I'm in my early to mid 40s

: 34:04

It's like you're a functioning depressed person. Yeah. 100%

Ian Hawkins: 34:07

you just build up with these coping mechanisms? Yeah. What you describe then, of having that relationship where well I can just cope with it. I can just cope with it. Is that what you find? Is the sort of people the the women that you're helping the same pattern?

: 34:26

Absolutely. It is. Because for for what I think that what what a lot of people don't understand about narcissism is that when you're picked by someone, to to like by a narcissistic person who now wants to be a part of your life, they're picking you for a variety of reasons and none of them are bad. They're picking you because you look good on their arm one way or another. You have a great career. Maybe you're attractive, you're super resilient. Look what I can get. That's what this is all about that part of it. They also see themselves like you, right they have very false sense of competence. It's very deep. They're very. It's like a duplicitous thing. Like they believe that they are up here when they're not. And then everything about them has to reflect that. Right? It's all about image. Yeah. So once they realize that they can't be like you, then they start to pick you apart, piece by piece, it's a systematic, picking apart until, you know, you're like a shell of yourself filled with anxiety and stress, they make you feel like you're not safe to go out in the world. Without them, they isolate you. It's like a whole bunch of crazy, psycho manipulation, that happens through the course of the relationship, you know, so So this is what a lot of people don't understand is that when you're getting into these narcissistic relationships, it is more to do with your lack of self worth, than anything else. That's it. That's it. And so narcissistic people, what I've learned in my life, is that they're everywhere, so they're not going to go away. So it's up to us to build the resilience around it, understand what we're dealing with, learn to rebuild, right, like to really set the foundation for our self worth, what we want, how we're gonna go about getting it focusing on the goal, and not having all this extra time to be messing around with people who don't deserve to be on our lives, or who are not on our aligned path. Right. I remember meeting this girl when I was younger, she was like, she was like, 2027 or 28 years old, and she was in med school. And so my curiosity was like, Oh, my God, well, what does that involve? And how long have you been in school? And so she told me, that trajectory of med school, which is nuts, it's absolutely crazy. But I'm going to tell you something, what I took away from that. And if you don't know what, what the trajectory is, it's like four years of university, and then and then I can't remember all the details. But beyond that, they're in a hospital, getting the experience working tons of hours, it takes so much of your life, like this is your life, this is what you're doing. And she had never had a bad relationship. And I was like, Oh, that's it. That's the ticket. How many of us are just kind of like floating around like me, that was me, not knowing what my direction was in life, not knowing what my sole purpose was? Or why, you know, same thing, why I'm on this planet, you know, not knowing how to go about doing anything that I want to do. And oh, he's cute. But start dating right? Now we've been together for five years, maybe we should get married like that, that needs to change, right like that. To change. Like, if we like now on my path now. And all the work that I've done, I've co written a book about narcissistic relationships. Like I've done so much work in this space now that when I meet someone narcissistic, I'm like, Oh, hold on a second. The fastest way to find out if you're with a narcissist, well, there's a few different things, but call them out on their behavior and stick to your guns, you want to see a narcissist, like, you know, freak out and try to get out of the Get out of the conversation. There's that, you know, if you're in the company of a narcissist are pointing out somebody else's accolades, all the great things that they're doing, and watch how they squirm a little bit and try to take the attention away from that person, you know, and then the other thing is catching them in lies. You know, like when we can know exactly what we need to do. You know, and we've got some experience putting these things into practice, and narcissist comes your way. And you're like, I don't think so. Now you see it for what it is.

Ian Hawkins: 38:31

Yeah. So what I know, from helping people through exactly that process, is that that can be the most traumatic experience of their life when they are starting to stand up for themselves and starting to realize just how negative impact that's having in their life and has for a long, long time. So what's the most important thing for them to know, to be able to deal with the pain they're experiencing? So they can get out the other side tenure?

: 39:02

Well, I've been in relationships that were violent with, you know, overt narcissists, and I've been in relationships with people who are covert narcissists. Be overt narcissist is dangerous. It's, it's scary. You know, when I was in this situation. For me, there was calling the police starting a police file, you need to start taking, you know, like the police need to know what has happened and you need to start detailing all of this information in some kind of file, make sure you you know, start a police file, all that information goes into the police file. You need to take the steps to get yourself out of that situation. Whatever it is that you need to do protect your children and go and sometimes it looks like a shelter and that sounds devastating because when we're in domestic violent relationships that are physical, I think one of the hardest things is is the not knowing what's coming. Right ain't like it's like the devil, you know, right. So, so you've kind of now have got a hold on how he's going to behave, what he's gonna say, you know, or she, I mean, I, this is my experience as a woman with men, but you know, like, you, you have got this down almost you understand it, you can keep them away from the children, it's, it's like, there's a whole bunch of things there. I think that for a lot of women, it's really difficult for them to leave a situation like that, because they don't know what's going to happen. Always consult with a lawyer, you know, there are free lawyers everywhere, almost every single law firm will have a pro bono, you know, a pro bono department, and they do stuff like this for free for a reason, you know, so it's just worth taking the steps. You know, a lot of overt narcissists will also a lot of overt narcissists. Sorry, my son's in the background, I can hear him. You can hear him a lot of overt narcissist, well, you know, track your phone and track your computer and do all these, you know, crazy things. It is a step by step process, I got out of that situation, you can do it. You know, of course, the the kind of person that I've learned to become through all the years and all the things that I've gone through, is the minute I'm going through something difficult, my mind goes right to the solution. And that's where I stay. And that's where I stay focused until the thing is done. And then I can breathe. You know, I think that when we're in a tremendous situation like that, where our physical and our children's physical safety is at risk, we need to do it step by step, it is very careful. Now, if we're talking about covert narcissism, well, that's a whole other thing. These people are all about image. They need everybody around them to think a very specific thing about who they are. And sometimes these kinds of people will have positions of power, you would never even believe that they would be like this. Some are pastors. Yeah. Some are ministers. Some are presidents of companies, CEOs. I mean, it runs the gamut. But the image that they have got going for them is that they're kind, and they're generous, and they do all these nice things for people. Right? That is there so that when their victims say this guy did this, to me, everyone's like, okay, whatever. Like he's like, the nicest guy in the world. What are you talking about? And it makes you look crazy, right. So that's the whole design of that. What you need to know when you're getting out of a relationship with a covert narcissist is that they are cowards to the extreme, they are more afraid of you than you are of them. And this is something that I wish I would have known early on, they're afraid of being exposed. They're afraid of you telling on them. Once you stand up to them, and you start to see through them, that's when they get a little shaky because their foundation is being rocked and they don't know what to do. They have literally kept you there through manipulation tactics. Yeah, picking apart your self worth. So now you start showing some self worth, you start showing a little bit of bravado, which I think is a good thing in that situation, you start showing them that you don't need them as much as they want you to need them. You know, the isolation piece is real. start branching out, you know, start making some new friends don't hide this stuff. Covert narcissists want to keep you in fear and anxiety, and they love it, when they're taking over you. And you just sit over there quietly, that keeps them in control of you. So that's the difference in my experience between the two. You know, if your narcissist is all about image, and they really need people to believe a certain thing about them, as in, you know, they live on how much money they have, they lie about, you know, what they've done with their lives, they lie about anything, which is really what covert narcissists, do they, it's like inconsequential, lying, there's no reason for it, they'll just do it anyway, they say things to you, and they're then looking at you and you're upset with the mean behavior, or the awful words that they use to describe you or to say something awful about you, you know, all of that is, you know, then they start to make you feel like you're crazy, and you're too sensitive. All of this is just for show, they're just trying to keep up, you know, an image. These are not the ones to be afraid of these are like the cowardly men, you know, and women but but because we've now been, you know, in a relationship with them. So we've been systematically picked apart to the point where we're just like shaking, and we've got all this anxiety. We're scared to do something because we don't know what they're going to do. But that's the whole plan. It's like a, it's like a spider's web. They've just got you in a state of perpetual fear because they want to appear unpredictable. It keeps you stuck. It keeps you there, and their worst fear is being alone. Something that we need to understand about narcissists in general, too, is that the, this is the thing. They're in their own minds, or they're hating themselves all the time, all the time. So when you say something nice about somebody else, it automatically sets an inferiority complex going inside of them. They can't handle it. It's why they have to distract you from Not say something bad about that person or bring the attention back on themselves because they can't handle the inferiority complex, it's too big, it's too much. So this is this is part of it, you know, like they really don't like themselves. My strategy for dealing with narcissists, like this is I don't play the game, I just don't play the game I used to, I used to play the game, it used to be a lot of back and forth and fighting, you know, you confront a narcissist, and then they get you on this, you know, weird path about how you did something wrong last Tuesday by the dishwasher, then you're fighting about the dishwasher. And that goes circles around you just to get you off topic with them. I used to fall for it, I used to be involved in it. When you become the observer of this behavior, you take a few steps back, and you're like, what is happening in this person's mind? Yeah. Because you're like looking at them now with his newfound knowledge and ability to observe and not participate, not react, but respond. You know, like, this is a huge thing for a survivor of narcissistic abuse, when you finally learn that what you're dealing with is like a five year old having a temper tantrum, you start realizing that's what this is. And that gives you a whole other lease on this relationship, I'm telling you, you stick to the topic at hand, you become as boring as possible, you respond with a few words, you don't get into the whole, big giant thing, you stick to the topic at hand, I don't like you talking to me that way. And we can talk again, when you decide to be respectful. It's like talking with your child when you're trying to teach your child manners. You know, so, so anyway, so that's, that's sort of that's been my experience.

Ian Hawkins: 46:36

Um, that was so good. And thank you for sharing that. Tanya, that's, that's gonna be great help for people understanding it. Also how to deal with it. Okay, so I know this is from a place of experience. Can you describe how that's played out for you in your personal relationship? And how that has? What how you've dealt with that. And then how you got to the point of saying, well, I need to get out of this as well.

: 47:00

Absolutely. So um, so like, a lot of other women. And well, and men, of course, but again, I'm, you know, I'm speaking from my personal experience, but like a lot of other women that I that I have coached and taught and spoken with. We don't know what this is when we're going through it. You know, we don't know what it is. He's just, am I allowed to swear on your show? Go for it. He's just a giant asshole, right? You're just like, What is wrong with this guy? Like, what is the matter with him? He, he's in the room, one minute, nice. He leaves the room and comes back. And now he's mad about something that's happening in his own mind. I don't know what's happening. You're just you're just a jerk. How about you leave? Right? Like, just get out of the house? Like it's, it just is constant fighting and arguing, because you're not understanding what's wrong with them. You know, in my personal experiences in my past, you know, there's been a lot of mental health issues and not wanting to fix those mental health issues, you know, so for me, the catalyst was I learned what this was, you want to know what it was, I was finishing my university, and nursing my son, and I was looking down. And there's this teeny, tiny little section all about personality disorders. And there was three of them. And the middle one was narcissism. And I was like, No way. This is describing, this is describing the person that I was with, I was like, This is crazy. In one paragraph, I was like, This is my life. So that set me on a whole path of research. I love research. If you're into human design, I'm a manifesting generator. I love research. I love getting into it. And I went down this rabbit hole, and I was like, This is crazy. It is crazy. How far down this goes. So of course, you know, because I was in school, I decided I was emailing my, my teacher, I was doing online, you know, education for six months while I was you know, with my baby. But I was like, you know, I emailed my teacher and I'm like, Can I do a whole paper on narcissistic personality disorder? I know all this information now. And he was like, Yeah, sure, you know. And so I said to him, you know, if you have any information for me to set me on this path, please tell me. And he told me to read a book called Snakes in suits. And that book, I read the whole thing, and it took a million notes, I'll be sticking out sticking out of it. And I was like, This is wild, like these men. The book was specifically about men hold these powers of position all over the world, you know, that are leveling corporations, because they come in, excuse me, they do all of this damage. They blame it on somebody else. It's never their fault. Right? They blame it on somebody else. All these people are left in their wake because they're like, I don't want to work here anymore, and then they leave. So now everybody else has to fix it and no one knew it was them. Except the people who are left in this horrible mess with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You know, like I will tell you one of the things that I learned is going through a narcissistic relationship for you know, any amount of time they say that the post trauma like stress disorder that you end up getting from it, which you will get from it is the same level of being in a war as a soldier. Oh,

Ian Hawkins: 50:09

wow, that's yeah.

: 50:12

So please do your research on that. And you know, get all the details, you know, and find that but, but the thinking behind it is that you are in a high level anxiety, stressful situation, you do not know, when the next blow is going to come. You don't know when the next fight is going to start. You don't know if you're safe. At night, when you're sleeping, you're not sure if your children are safe narcissists will leave you on the side of the highway, because you're not listening to them, you know, they're not able to manipulate and control you. You know, like, that's what they do. They scare you, they scare the daylights out of you. And when you've got kids, I mean, you're putting your kids first. So a lot of women are going to be situations that they really don't have to go through because they're terrified to leave, you know, they're terrified of what's going to happen next. So, so that's the level of post traumatic stress disorder, you know, like, I know, and then calming down your nervous system is really important. You know, there's a, I don't know if you have this where you are, but there's this, there's this, I love this. This is called Rescue Remedy. I don't know if anyone's ever heard of it.

Ian Hawkins: 51:15

Supplemental like a It's

: 51:17

drops, it drops and it calms the nervous system, and it gets you you know, back down to you know, where you you're functioning at a normal level, and your your, your body's not in constant stress and anxiety mode. I've been a lover of this product, it's organic, or is it organic? I don't know if it's organic, but it's, it's it's all holistic. But I've been taking drops under my tongue several times a day, most of my adult life just because of all of the anxiety that I've suffered in my life, and it's calms me right down. It's, it's absolutely amazing. I love this stuff. I talked about it all the time. But the goal is that you learn to calm down your body in any way that you can, so that you can think better. Hmm,

Ian Hawkins: 52:01

it's funny that you bring that up, because when you I felt this wave of anxiety was only really fleeting. But then I realized what it was the siren was going in the background. Now that creates an anxiety and most people just because we've had this drummed into us that we want to stay in their way when we're driving the fear response. But for you, given you lived on the street for so long. Is that a whole different response

Unknown Speaker: 52:28

to a fire chart drawing?

Ian Hawkins: 52:31

If police or whatever emergency?

: 52:35

Yeah, I don't have the same IRS. That's so funny that you say that I was saying to my daughter earlier, that the sounds of the city sued me, it's not funny or interesting. Yeah, I know. That is interesting. I don't know, again, it depends on the kind of meaning that we're giving things right. Like, I go through this a lot in my life, you know, I, you know, it's like the I don't know, if you have the same where you are. But in Canada, growing up, there was the stop, drop and roll, you know, if you know, something should happen to you. So I've got this reactive response, where I catch my thought, I reframe the thought, or I think about the thought like, why am I having this thought, what meaning Am I giving this thought and then I put a reframe on it, right. So I do this pretty fast. Now, if you can get yourself into the habit of, you know, the way that you can catch your thinking, you know, and what kind of meaning you're putting on things is by taking time every single day to sit in quiet, you know, just to sit in silence, don't pay attention to anything but your breathing. You know, don't let anybody interrupt you do this, when you know, you're you have the most success and quiet time, don't do it when your kids are awake and running around or whatever. But even if you're lying in your bed first thing in the morning, when you open your eyes, you know, just focus on your breath. This is where we hear ourselves thinking, you know, it's really, really, really important when we're trying to change our lives and get back on a path of, you know, healthy living again, healthy thinking, again, healthy feelings, you know, is that we can catch the thinking. So the negative thought will still come in, of you know, oh my God hasn't written to me. You know, you want to get into your phone, you know, if you're going through a breakup with someone who's narcissistic, you're just on this path of like, you know, it's almost like you're addicted to it, you know, so I can talk a little bit about that, too.

Ian Hawkins: 54:25

Well, yeah, we can we come back to that. I just wanted to ask about you mentioned that you started to write a paper on this. Yeah. Is this when you're still in the relationship and you haven't joined the dots that that actually the reason why the you need to know about this is because that's what you're experiencing? Yeah.

: 54:41

Well, yeah. So he was sitting beside me when I read this piece of information in my textbook, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is crazy. And I had the courage to say Read this. Read this. This sounds like you.

Ian Hawkins: 54:55

Oh, wow. Yeah, it was I received not Wow.

: 54:59

I mean, he's a covert narcissist, I started to catch on to this game, you know, this game playing of trying to like make me anxious all the time. And I just wasn't having it. I don't know, I've been through so much. One of the things that I said when I was first going through this divorce is this is not the hardest thing I've ever been through. I am a tough woman, I have been through all kinds of things. This is not the hardest thing in the world, this will not break me. Right. So I made the decision for that, you know, early on in the relationship, but it was up and down and all over the place. And I just didn't know what was wrong with him. I thought he was just such a jerk, you know, and I could look at his family and see his relationship with his father. And I could see that same jerky behavior in the father, right. So. So I started to catch on, you know, bit by bit. Plus, my background is in psychology, and I had been coaching for a long time. You know, and I do have a mouth on me. I can stand up for myself, right? I don't, I don't need to yell and scream and do all those things. But I don't have a problem standing up for myself now. And that just came from experience of putting myself out there. You know, enough was enough. I needed to say how I felt I needed to stand in that power. But but so anyway, yeah. So I wrote this paper, not fully understanding, I think that another problem that we have when we're going through this, and we finally have a name for what we're going through, like we finally understand it's narcissistic abuse, is that we think, Oh, he's not as bad as what I just read. It's not that bad. He's only a baby narcissist.

Ian Hawkins: 56:22

Just justification. Is that is that part of what you said? There is so often that women find it difficult to leave? Because that justification patterns running as well?

: 56:32

Yeah, sure. You know, I mean, for the woman in a relationship with a narcissistic man, it's real for us, you know, we're, we're in these relationships, because we really did fall in love. You know, we really didn't understand what love bombing was, you know, we really didn't understand yet how manipulative and low people could go, you know, so it was real for us. I mean, when a woman decides to have a baby with a man, you know, all things being equal, all peoples being equal, let's just say, you're not going to say yes, to having a child with somebody, it's going to change your entire life, if, you know, you understand these things about them, you know, so So the problem is that it was real for us, we are in love with these people. So we don't want them to be this bad of a guy. You know, we don't want to see them in this light, you know? Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 57:21

So what was breaking point then? Or was it a gradual? Up?

: 57:27

I had we had been going through, you know, there was a lot of mental health issues and things that were not being taken care of a lot of lying. You know, even though I understood narcissism from a textbook perspective, I still didn't really attach it to him. So I needed him to just do what needed to be done to fix the problems. So we could go on with our lives and be married. And, you know, but it wasn't happening. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm going to be 40 I'm going to be 40. I've been with this person for so long now that this can't be my life. Like, this can't be my life. I woke up one morning, you know, in this relationship, I've been crying every single morning on the bathroom floor, and then putting my face on to take, you know, my child to school, and having to see all these other moms and dads, and it was a horrible existence. For me. I, I mean, I felt invisible. I felt like I wasn't really there. I felt like I didn't matter. I didn't feel like I was being seen. I couldn't speak about it. Because I just couldn't I just didn't know what to do so. So for me, there was two options, leave without my children, and save myself or take my children and go into the world with no money, no job. No nothing. And I've really, you know, struggled with this because I wasn't gonna leave my kids. So I had to do it the other way. And I didn't know what I did not know what that looked like. That was crazy. Me. So the breaking point was, I just couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't do it for one more second. It was crazy. I woke up one morning it was like I woke up from a fog. And I called this girl that I knew who was a real estate agent and I said can you please find me a one bedroom with a den. I don't even care I'll sleep on the couch like the kids need the room a one bedroom with a den if you can find it. I have a little tiny bit of money saved you're gonna have to do your best to negotiate something for me. And she was like I got you. So she just went and took it and ran with it. And then you know three weeks later I was moving into a condo with no furniture and I just had this little bit of money and bit by bit we ended up getting everything together and then I started this business when I started this business of you know helping women go through narcissistic divorces. I will say that because it full for one I thought what if you know like, what about all the women out there because it was horrible when I was going through with this like through the separation like through all of the problems I was having. I thought What about women who have dedicated their lives like right from the very beginning of the marriage to raising their children, and they're decades in and they don't have post secondary education, what happens to them? What are they doing? Like what is happening to these people? This, you know, family court system is horrible for women. It was just wretched, its wretched in this part of the world. I imagine it's wretched everywhere for women. But I was going through it. And I just thought, no, no, no, no, no, this is not okay. I was about 10 steps ahead of all the women that I started calling in through this interview series I had that ended up going, you know, reaching, it was just under half a million women all over the world, the show, and it was me interviewing people, just like you're interviewing me. And just putting information in front of people, I thought, if women just have this information, if they just have the information, and they know what they're going through, and they know what steps they need to take, this changes the game. Right? So the very, very first year and a half of this business was not for me to make my name. I didn't have anything to sell. I just put the information out there. And it was wonderful. It was amazing. We got so many people involved in this project. It was wonderful. But But yeah, yeah, I can easily go on a tangent.

Ian Hawkins: 1:01:07

Amazing, amazing. And to me, what I've learned about the sort of work that we both do is that if it's not coming from that place, of wanting to share information and wanting to get a message out there that goes beyond the business, well, then it's not going to be in alignment, it's not going to work anyway. Or if it does, it's going to come crashing down because of it needs to have those elements, it needs to have the personal touch.

: 1:01:34

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And my whole entire life has been designed around helping people who need it. I don't. While it is a business for me now, you know, because I specifically work with women who are entrepreneurs who have heart centered businesses who are trying to change the world like I am, and like you are, I don't want something like narcissistic abuse to hold them back from being able to do that. I mean, these are the people who are changing the world, this is not the place for this kind of, you know, setback to the point of complete paralysis, you know, and this is what I'm noticing, you know, because because the narcissistic abuse is designed to keep you quiet, you know, these women don't don't know how they are, how to how to get them out of themselves again, right? Like, it's, it's just such a pervasive thing, that it really is a step by step process. And you really do need someone holding your hand and you need someone in your ear, you know, who says, you know, your this is okay, you know, what you're going through what you're feeling this is okay, this is right, you're not feeling wrong, it's not a it's not a bad thing. You don't need to be quiet about this, or, Yes, this is the right path to go on. Go for it say that, you know, like, it just becomes a sisterhood really, if you want to like it's, it's just about Women Helping Women,

Ian Hawkins: 1:02:46

community love it. Now, I also know that when when we are on that right path, and we're in alignment, that we still get challenged in different areas, and that fuels that lifelong desire to learn and continue to find ways to improve in this area. So in terms of you, you mentioned, you've you've got a big voice and you're able to stand up for yourself. How, what what is it you're throwing yourself into now to learn more of to be even bigger voice for these women who need your help?

: 1:03:16

Oh, my goodness, I have been on this path. So with the first you know, few years of having my show, you know all about narcissistic recovery and narcissistic abuse, I felt compelled to have the spiritual component only because I had really an excuse me, I don't I've really always been attached to my intuition so strongly. And I was like, That can't be for nothing, right? So I had 50% of my show below spiritual people. And then I was like, okay, my whole life, I've gone really hard on mindset and personal development, mindset, personal development, this is what it takes for you to change your life. This is like what I've done, I've reinvented myself a million times, and this is all I've ever done. But I was leaving out that really important piece about the intuition because I didn't fully understand it. So having these speakers when these healers Come on, you know, I did, I didn't realize what I was gonna get out of that. And what I got out of that was just a lot of healing and a lot of, you know, healing people around me helping me through this and giving me other ways to look at what I was going through. And so I started my own practice, and this is what my third is all about. It's metaphysical sciences. So what I'm, you know, learning now my my path now and it has been for the past four years, is to really get into the feminine energy of what it is that we're going through, so that we don't lose that. Right like I think most of my life I hated being a woman hated being a girl. I saw all these boys getting everything even in my foster home. There was other boys there and I had to wait on them and dote on them because that was the only girl like, I just couldn't stand it and I've rejected every part of myself, right? I've rejected, you know, having boobs over to bag or having a menstrual cycle or you know, like just rejected all of it I rejected, you know, like all of it, men telling me to stay in my place me having to wait to be called on in my mind, that's what I thought, you know, like it was all of this stuff that just I don't know, I just guess it was repulsed by myself, you know. And then as I got older, and I was going through this work and going through all of this, I realized, what am I doing here like, like, I am a woman, this is a wonderful, you know, place to be, you know, like being a woman and in this energetic flow and learning how to access my feminine energy while going through some very masculine situations is a beautiful thing. You know, I used to be so hot headed, I was a feminist, I would go hard I was for civil rights. I mean, I was the activists, right. I was like, that person didn't care what anyone thought I was so loud, and so vocal, very much in my masculine energy. And then when I started learning this whole process of getting into my feminine, wow, did that ever take, you know, like, that just took me on a whole other path. And, and so now I like to think of myself as being able to balance it out. You know, like, it's, it's been a four and a half, five year journey now for me. But, but yeah, if you would have interviewed me, I don't know, 15 years ago, this would have been a very different conversation.

Ian Hawkins: 1:06:18

Well, I was actually struck by the whole story of like, I think, what my thought was, it's amazing how trusting you are of me in this situation, given all the have experienced, because I've, I've worked with a lot of women who have experienced some horrific things with men. And that's the big thing is the trust. But it's clear that you've done a heap of work around that. And that's your ability to be able to do that first, even to have this conversation at all, even to agree to the conversation, which is a credit to what you have been able to do. So do you then like, well, your own experience? And then with helping others? What about the other side of that relationship? Do you? Have you had other relationships? Are you looking for a relationship, or when we come out of that isn't all about being independent and finding your own way before you even contemplate that?

: 1:07:16

Um, I've recently got out of a very weird relationship that was very narcissistic. But of course, it's short lived, because you know, you have all these tools and skills now and you see it for what it is and whatever. I think that for me, I don't know. Like, when when I finally started to accept, like, what I'm actually on this planet to do. I mean, all the things that I went through, don't get me wrong. I thought I had the worst luck in the world. I was like, am I even supposed to be here? Everything feels like I'm not even supposed to be alive. Like, there were moments of my life where I was just like, I don't even know what to do with this. I'm terrible. I'm embarrassed, I'm humiliated. I'm embarrassed. How do I even talk about this with anybody? Right. So it was really like a lot of my life, like, not sure if I was even supposed to be a lot. Like it was so weird. I then I don't sorry, can you tell me a question? Again,

Ian Hawkins: 1:08:08

I was talking about future relationships for yourself, but also for helping the women that you've helped around their past relationships.

: 1:08:16

So when I finally sorry, I went off in my mind a little bit, their relevance was good. When I finally got to the, to the understanding, like I hired a coach, when I decided I wanted to start a business. At the very end of 2017, I hired this coach, and she was like, okay, so she wanted to know a little bit about my past, but she didn't really want to get stuck there. And I was like, okay, you know, a lot of people asking a lot of questions about it. And it was very uncomfortable for me to talk about it. You know, she said, Why don't you consider it this way? Why don't you consider that the universe has given you a master's degree in adversity, and that maybe you're supposed to help other people go through this, that like that way, and maybe that's what you're here for. And I was like, What are you talking about? I'm an actor. What I want to do with my life, right, I've been acting as much as I could do my whole entire life. I love getting into other parts. I was having so much fun with that. I was terrified of it. I didn't trust myself. I wasn't very vulnerable. But I loved it. I loved it so much. And, and I did not want this to be my path. I was like, This can't I've been doing this for free since I was 17 years old. What are you talking about? Like, this is what I'm supposed to do for the rest of my life. And she's like, it kind of looks like that. And then I was like, I don't know what to do with us. So I went and journaled about it. She gave me all these journaling prompts, right? And then I came to the conclusion that I love helping people go through this stuff. You know, my whole life. I've been helping men and women my whole entire life. And I thought I was not so funny. I didn't, didn't even see it. I didn't even think of it. So to get back to your question about relationships. I think that now that I've fully understand what I'm here to do, and I'm you know, my children are still young. My daughter is 17 My son is 12 It's just the three of us. I love that so much. And this work is a very big part of my life. So it's almost like my relationship with a lot of people. I think that this is this is good for me for right now. You know, I just want to focus on this. I love speaking. I love doing interviews and meeting amazing people like you, you know, who are doing this incredible work in the world, I just, this elevates me to another level beyond. So I have no interest in being in a relationship right now at all. And I'm, you know, I don't know, there's just so much work to be done in the world, I just really do believe that once I reached this level of not needing validation, not needing acceptance, not thinking it's someone else's job to make me happy. You know, I put myself in a position of service to everything that I've been through. I don't know, there's just bigger things in the world to have happen. And I do believe I mean, I love loud, don't get me wrong. I am a very big romantic, I read all the classic novels as a kid, you know, I think that I think that I really, there's something in that thought that we have to trust the timing of our lives, you know, and when it comes to control, or feeling lonely, or, you know, being uncertain, this is just really your energy GPS guiding you to what you need to heal. Yeah, so so I don't have those same emotions anymore. I don't feel lonely. I don't. Right now, I'm trying to figure out, you know, what's the best way for me to reach her? You know, the woman who's going through this stuff? Who needs me? You know, what does she need to hear right now that I can put on Instagram? Or, you know, I can do a live for her? Like, what? Like, how can I return? Let her know. She's not by herself. You know, this is where my thoughts are?

Ian Hawkins: 1:11:40

Yeah. Love that. Experience. That's usually when relationships turn up when you're looking for them. Or the resistance. Right. So they will be interested in itself. You mentioned, did you say you were NACA?

Unknown Speaker: 1:11:56

Yeah. I was an actor for ever.

Ian Hawkins: 1:11:58

How did we get this far into the conversation? That's the first mention. So

: 1:12:04

it's not really relevant. I well, I guess, just my personal,

Ian Hawkins: 1:12:07

everything's irrelevant. I mean, my head straightaway goes well, like from the moment you just made that decision to, to leave that environment, then you straightaway become an actor, because you're having to play all these parts to survive. So to me,

: 1:12:23

Oh, I'm just gonna say I started acting when I was like five years old in school plays, I loved it. And I'm a singer, I've been a singer my whole life. I've sang for fun. I've sang professionally, you know? I, you wouldn't know it now, though. My voice is a little scratchy. But I. But yeah, you know, every chance I got when I was in school, there was drama class and drama class was part of, you know, school at that time, I don't know what it's like, you know, in your part of the world, but in our part of the world, now, it's not a part of school anymore. And it's something extra that people have to pay for, for the kids to do. And, you know, when I was young, it was just part of my curriculum, and I loved it. And I was so introverted, by the time I was a teenager, and so shy and so quiet, like I was afraid to be picked on I didn't want anyone asking me questions about my life, you know, that, that acting was a way for me to express something, just something. And of course, you know, all plays are all about the crazy moments in someone's life, you know, so, you know, it's not the boring parts that everyone loves. It's like the crazy stuff, you know, people are going through something. So it really gave me a chance to express myself, you know, through my own experiences in this weird way. You know, but yeah, I was an actor for a really long time, and just doing like little things, whatever I could do in the theater. And then, and then I was like a film actor in Toronto for three years, I made five independent films there. But you know, I was in this relationship, and I had to choose, I mean, you know, under the best of circumstances, in narcissistic relationships, you can't focus. You know, you can't focus in for an actor, you need to have no drama in your life. So you can bring all the drama to the stage. And that just wasn't my life, I had nothing. I was empty. I just had nothing for it. And I just, you know, decided raising my children was where I needed to put my focus as a single mother. This is where I'm at right now. And will I ever returned to acting? Of course, I Well, of course. Oh,

Ian Hawkins: 1:14:14

yeah. Well, I mean, there's, there's a element of what you're doing now is performance, right? Not not necessarily acting, but there's a performance to be had so that people can see you in your highest light and be drawn to what it is that you bring to the table.

: 1:14:32

You know what it is? Can I tell you the performance part because I have actor friends who are like, Why aren't you acting and I saw this woman in this film, and you could have done that and I'm like, oh, it's like a knife to the heart sometimes but but honestly, the performance part was was me not knowing how to fully show up that was so painful. And then once I learned this, like, like, it's okay to embrace your past. It's okay to use the things that have held you back in your life to to use them in your business. It's That's That's the hope. Wait, that's why you went through it, you're gonna help so many people by being able to talk about it without shame, and without grief. And that, to me, was the craziest thing in AI, for me to say to someone I grew up in foster care, like you could know me for a decade and not know that about me. Like, I would not tell anybody, any of those details. Right? Like, I was terrified people knowing this about me. And so anyway, that was the performance piece, it was really weird. It felt super uncomfortable hiding this stuff, you know, but the funny thing that you say now is that I get to be free, you know, and I couldn't really express myself the way I always wished I could have as an actor, you know, but But yeah, so yeah, that's it. It's just being able to own all of it. And just talking about it.

Ian Hawkins: 1:15:47

Amazing that I draw the link for me that was sport, like, if, if I'd known what I know, now, back then.

Unknown Speaker: 1:15:57

Having Oscar one day, we'll see. We'll see.

Ian Hawkins: 1:15:59

Who knows my thought was more, maybe you'll be coaching someone who will be getting an Oscar prep.

: 1:16:08

You know, I would love to be able to help them and get through all of this stuff. Because it really is, to me, it's it's a switch in the mind, really. And then repetitive practice, you know, just deciding what you want things to mean for your future, you know, get out of the past, right.

Ian Hawkins: 1:16:22

100% 10 year, is it anything else that you would love to share with the audience around your story around dealing with narcissism? or anything in general, before we wrap it up?

: 1:16:38

Yeah, sure. God, I can keep talking forever. I'll keep it short. I am. Yeah. So I created something just for women to get started with thinking right, like I said, when I had that first coach, and she was like, maybe just embrace the idea that the universe is giving you a master's degree in this in this one area. She had me do some journaling prompts. And I thought, You know what, this is what got me started with being okay with the circumstances of my life. So I created this thing called five days to reinvent yourself after narcissistic abuse. And it's just one journal prompt today. So you don't have to overwhelm yourself with you know, getting into this new way of thinking. But it really is about you now, moving forward. Yeah, and just focusing on the future. You know, calming yourself down, there's some practices in there, there's things that you can do to calm yourself down. And to just really start to get clear about what you want your future to look like. Yeah. Yeah. So So for me, that was it. You know, it's, it's really, it's that simple. You know, it's, it kind of feels like, you know, when you're a kid, and you're going through, you know, math class, and you're like, This can't be this easy. It really can be this easy, right? Once we start getting ourselves on the path of like, thinking a specific way, and you know, just wanting to change our lives for real. Yeah, so you can get that at Tanya dubay.com. Yeah, and then that's it. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 1:17:58

And we'll make sure we put the link to that in the show notes as well. What you described there, I think that's that it's like you're providing structure for people. You're providing a framework for people so that they can find it in their own way. And then they can find their own way out the other side. So I love that. Yeah, simplicity. Really cool. Tanya, thank you so much for sharing that was educational for me, too. I'm sure the listeners got so much out of that. I appreciate it.

: 1:18:26

Appreciate it. Thank you so much. I love being here with you. It's nice to know you had to get to me.

Ian Hawkins: 1:18:32

Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com. You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.

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