We’re here to discuss the fifth episode of Anne Rice’s Interview with the Vampire from AMC and AMC+, and the continuing adventures of our favorite tragic vampire family

In this episode we discuss domestic violence and campus sexual assault, vampire therapy and broken hearts.

Claudia’s Diaries contain MULTIPLE HANDWRITINGS. Gorrei on twitter was the first I saw that noticed this: https://twitter.com/gorrei_vc/status/1581837719415582721?s=46&t=_7V3iPLPMvpa_mn4RWuJ7w

EXCELLENT Historical thread from Dominique on this first season: https://twitter.com/emos_que/status/1583690736062513152?s=61&t=z2QulkB3Xcc2iq_GAruEdA

If you like Anne Rice and her vampires enough to read this, then you like them enough to join our cult...I mean Discord: https://discord.gg/PkbCaMgVu3

If Discord isn’t your thing, we also have a Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/articulatecoven/ or follow us on Twitter @articulatecoven

Until you hear from us again, watch episode six of Interview With the Vampire on AMC and AMC+.

Joel: The Articulate Coveen is the original unofficial podcast and fan community for An Rice's interview with the Vampire and An Rice's Immortal Universe from AMC and AMC Plus. Welcome to

Joel: articulate coven. We are your hosts.

Ashley: Ashley Wright Eiler.

Joel: And Joel Sharpton, and we are the articulate Kevin. Oh my goodness. Oh

Ashley: my goodness. Maybe Jesus. You guys and there will be there's no non spoiler section of this. I'm sure that just be impossible.

Joel: No. So just be aware, if you haven't seen episode five of season one of interview with the Vampire Avile

Ashley: No. Go right. Go

Joel: now and watch it. Why don't you? Quite a bit. We've got things to say though. We've got a lot of things to say, and we're gonna get right to it right now. First off the top, we get to anything else, I do wanna say, actually, you and I were just discussing what a tremendous conversation already being had on our Facebook page. Our Facebook group, I should say Facebook group. Yeah. If you do Facebook and I understand lots of people don't for lots of good reasons. But if you do Facebook, search for the group. Particularly, Kevin, there's a link in our show notes as well. And good join the group and and join the conversation. Every episode, we put up a spoiler thread. Sometime, you know, Sunday mornings, Sunday mid mid day, and the conversation begins. Like, okay. We're recording this now. It's, like, barely five thirty central time. And the the post has been up for less than five hours. And there's like forty seven comments already. Lots of good back and forth. Lots of wonderful stuff. We can bring up some of those points here, and they'll inform our conversation, I'm sure. But we could not possibly do it justice to share everything that everybody is saying. So please, if you're into this, if you wanna talk about the show, could join the Facebook group. Yeah. So that's where I wanted to start. Ashley, let's just get into it. What are your first overall thoughts about the episode? Look, we knew this was coming. Right? We knew

Ashley: this was coming. This was

Joel: Or something like explosion.

Ashley: I it was everything was a lot more physical than I expected it to be. I'll be really honest. But it it works. I mean, it works. I was horrified. Like and then we finished the episode and my husband and I were talking about it. And Brett said, I mean, to be fair, to a stat, he is trying to teach him a lesson like these vampires in Europe not gonna be easy for them to deal with.

Joel: Well, it you

Joel: know,

Joel: the overall thing that I think occurred to me more this episode than any before. The show writers and the creators of not just this TV series but this overall universe, these these characters, many of them are going to exist in other TV shows over time, I think, as we go. So I believe that they are working hard to craft a reasonableness to almost everyone's actions. Right? Not that any actions are excused, but that you can better understand than we ever did really in the novels because the novels are each from only one perspective. And here, we're already getting layers. We haven't heard Lestat's voice over yet. I think, well, we'll talk about that in a minute. I've got some theories, honestly, about that. But -- Uh-huh. -- even without Lrastat's voice over, we have gotten some direct hints at why he is the way he is. And just so with Claudia, more so for Claudia in this episode than any episode before, I think. We get a real glimpse of what her life was like with LaSate and Louis. Why she wanted to abandon that? The things that she goes through when she tries to be an independent. And then when she returns, I wouldn't say hat in hand. Brawling Jones had hat half in hand in his little post episode discussion. I disagree with him there too. I I I don't know that she came home apologetically at all, but she didn't

Ashley: come off that way to play. With

Joel: an apologetic attitude, an apologetic tone one that would say or or could sort of it could be framed as, like, she made an offer. And L'Estat bat it away it away very quickly.

Ashley: Yes.

Joel: But the the overall point, I I I want to say here is that these Show runners are trying to make all of these characters the kinds of there are no villains in our show as of yet, at least. There are no heroes either. Right? These are all people who struggle and do terrible things to one another because of circumstances and and their own bad choices.

Ashley: Well, and I think too, they are they're I mean, they are villains to each other at various times even if they aren't to the core air quotes villains as we, you know, wanna think they are a villainous to each other, at least from the other's perspective. So I think that this episode really kind of shows how how hard they can go at each other. And now one of that I think has to do with, like, everything is heightened when you're a vampire. So, of course, your your your your fights are as well. There was there's a lot to unpack in this, a whole lot to unpack in this. Claudia, basically, to me, it seems like they're showing in this like, they don't show us, but they tell us, they tell it guys, like, shit. I don't know anymore. My brain isn't working because I'm sick and I'm medicine, but she you know, she's basically acting just like as a predatory serial killer and just leaving bodies and places and keeping keeping trophies of her victims and things like that, which she, to me, at the beginning of the episode, before, you know, the the first the first big blow up happens, she's she's gotten no direction and no focus at all. She is acting like just a a straight up serial killer.

Joel: I mean, literally collecting trophies, holding holding bodies, and also experimenting with making her own vampires. Gotcha. Very good. And this

Ashley: ragic. She's trying so hard to make a partner.

Joel: I mean, and that is a I can't I honestly can't recall from the novel whether she ever actually attempts it. But that is definitely a desire Claudia has in the

Ashley: Right. And she knows that she's a small yeah. And she can't. And but the other thing that I think became really really obvious in this episode is that rule about not making a child of any sort into vampires. Claudia is so weak physically compared to these these grown men vampires, like all

Joel: of them.

Ashley: Every single one. She is a baby bird to them. The way she flies across the room when a stat touches her, the way that when she's dealing with the killer, at the at the campfire, and and he just barely touches her and he enters her. So it's frightening when you know how predatory our mon's group can be. You know, we have that in our heads going forward, it's terrifying. I think I'm more afraid for hers than I was afraid for for, you know, a more childlike clock yet because it just seemed like, why would anyone hurt her? But there's so many reasons someone can hurt a teenage version of her.

Joel: Well, then they brought because of the they aged her up. That's the for for me that made the I mean, the sexual violence that was not I will say thankfully explicit in this episode. I thought they handled that pretty well, although I dislike the well, we'll get to there in a minute. A couple of things I wanna say off the top here. First and foremost, the soundtrack is out. It's available now on all streaming services. It's available for purchase as well. But if you subscribe to any of the streaming services, you can find it there. You can, of course, I think it's even on YouTube so you can can sample it there. I will caution you. I am still staying away personally. Because I believe there are some track titles that are probably going to be sort of like evocative hints. There is also a track with Sam singing. And I believe I believe if I hear it, I'll have a good sense of where it comes from which is enough of a spoiler for me for these next two episodes, and I'm not gonna do it until I see the end of the season. After this season is over, I am going to drown myself in this soundtrack. So don't even worry. I'll get there with you. But if if that's your bag, go ahead and dive in. If you're worried about the spoilers though, I would just caution you. The other thing, Ashley, we forgot last week or I I should say I forgot last week to mention episode four was directed by Keith Powell. And written by Eleanor Burgess. I always wanna call out those credits. This episode, by the way, directed by Steven Aiken and written by Hannah Moskovich, back from episode three. So apparently, Hannah knows how to make our boys fight very well.

Ashley: Oh, yes. That's

Joel: the skill of hers. Anna, I don't know if and I don't say this flippantly. Hannah, I don't know if you have a history of domestic violence in your in your past. But goodness gracious.

Ashley: But, yousa,

Joel: you know how to play it on screen very well, ma'am. I I I mean, thank you, I suppose. But but I I said on the Facebook group, I don't hate this episode and I don't. This is not a bad episode. This is great television. I care very much about these characters. And even knowing it was coming, the way that it all plays out is slightly different than it is in the books, of course, because of the changing circumstances. And and the way that these characters are slightly altered from their portrayal in the novels, and the combination of those things and the fact that, you know, visual visual medium, like, TV series is is more affecting in many ways than a novel is. Well, I say I say that, more more viscerally affecting sometimes than a novel is. A novel will crunch you and stay with you for for, you know, days and months. But What I This is a lot.

Ashley: This is a lot. Right. That really have trouble, you know, drawing the pictures in their minds, you know, when it comes to when it comes to reading something. Not everybody can, you know, can see all those things. So You

Joel: know, one of my daughter says she can't at all. I've never I've never spoken with anyone who say they can't --

Joel: Yeah.

Joel: -- get a picture in their minds. One of my daughters can't. Yeah.

Ashley: That's a it's a whole thing. Like it I mean, it's a whole yeah. So it's interest I think it's cool. I think that's one of the reasons why I think adaptations are so wonderful. Anything that makes things more possible to, you know, really experience something fully, you know, in the way that the way that we know the way intended, you know, for us to paint these pictures and for us to see these things. So yeah. So this episode was a lot. Somebody who has some had had some dealings with domestic violence. It was there was a lot to deal with, and I don't know if they I didn't look to see if they had anything in the warnings, probably nothing about, like, domestic violence. It just appears that mother you. It's so so strange what, like, what what we all find triggering. Like, I can watch, you know, people get have all kinds of things done to them. But, like, yellow and breaking dishes. Freaking drives me crazy. I

Joel: can't handle it. L'Estat punched through the head of a priest in episode one. Right? So this is -- No. And I -- this is not a little real. I giggled. Yes. No. We all we made jokes about the about the kid fiddler.

Joel: Right?

Joel: But here, boy, the thing that got me, and I'm just gonna jump straight to it because I think it is going to be triggering for a lot of people.

Joel: Lastat

Joel: says you hear him off screen in the middle first of all, I will say kudos to the to the show runners of the director, whatever. You don't see the vast majority of the violence. The violence

Ashley: is offline and

Joel: off screen. The vast majority of it is there's one scene as as Claudia comes around the corner where L'Estat is repeatedly punching Louis, and that's about as as directly violent as it gets, honestly, until the very very last moments. But off screen, you hear a lot say, I'm trying to restrain myself. Yep. And boy, that is exactly the sort of thing that an abuser says while he's punching the shit out of the abusing. Right? Yeah. I mean, that is a that is a classic. Why do you make me do this to you?

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Joel: And yet, And yet, as the conversation has happened on Facebook in our in our group, and I'm telling you there's so much good stuff there, a couple of people have called it out. Lastat says, explicitly, I have fought my nature a million times. Lestat has spent seven years setting himself aside and waiting on Louis grief Oh, and living -- Yeah. -- like -- -- over claudine. Literally squatting. Literally squatting. How

Ashley: was Lrastat's concerned? That is living in school or, like, living in

Joel: school or two in a house. We've talked before about the fact that Louis will just live in a house.

Joel: A

Joel: little shout up with books and newspaper with no lights on and full of rat bodies. And here he is doing it. And Lestat's still sleeping in this house with him. So so it's not listen man. He's been there. He's put up through it. He's he's he's put his heart and his life on the line for Louis for seven years. Literally, seven years he's waited on the grief to end. And as he says, a thousand nights of moping, she walks in and you're gonna leave me. And I understand the anger. The violence is unwarranted and unexcusable. Right? There's going to have to be if we get too. We we the fandom says over and over again, most of us say, oh, Louis, and list that are in game. And I agree. I think they are. That's the novels. That's the story that Anne wrote. I think that's the story these show runners are writing. But, boy, there is a mountain of reconciliation we're gonna have to climb over and cross between here and there. Before we can get to it because some wrong was done tonight in a way that will be hard. And and as I mean, I think the the the trailers for next week imply that he's gonna have them basically in a hostage situation, maybe is what it almost seemed to me. I don't know. It seemed like maybe he's courting them at some point. But I wonder how this is gonna play out from here on out. I also think I think maybe we're only going to get one more large scene of violence. Book readers, if you're not a -- Yeah. -- not a book reader, I'm sure I'm sorry to spoil you this, but there are two assassination attempts in the book on Lestat's life before Claudia and Louis break free from him. And I think maybe This is our first bout of violence, and we're going to get one more and then a departure. If you think about the way these two episodes lay ahead of us to finish this season, the timing of everything as we think it's been told to us from the show runners. I mean, maybe they'll surprise us. The other thing is no screeners have have come out for six and seven. Nobody's seen these early, so we're all flying blind as we go into it.

Ashley: When I'll say this boy, he is known for some fucked up penultimate episodes for things that some I mean, everybody's craps their pants over a season finale, but AMC does not fuck around that second to last episode.

Joel: Well, and I really

Ashley: That's just traditionally with them.

Joel: Because you get then you get in the season finale. You you can still get a lot of great action or a lot of great payoff, but then you also get a little day newman and a resetting of the table for whatever comes next. Right? We get a we get a hint. Set

Ashley: the next season.

Joel: A couple of things I do wanna mention, and these will be show notes in the or these will be links in the show notes, I should say, we didn't mention this last week. I hadn't seen it. Honestly, until after the show was over, and we went to Twitter and Facebook and etcetera, Claudia's Diaries contain multiple handwritings. Gorey on Twitter was the first one that I saw that had noticed this. One of the one of the volumes that that Daniel opens in last episode, and he turns to the first thing he turns to is a page that's marked with a rose. That page is not written in the same handwriting as the rest of the of the books. And it is in fact, if you zoom in super close and read it, It is text from the Vampire L'Estat. The year, I believe, was nineteen twenty seven, but I wouldn't swear to that. Especially given the framing of of this episode's timeline. But at some point in the past, Lestat had added his own story to one of those diaries. As a token, one would imagine for Louis. Whether or not that was before or after this episode's events, we don't know. And whether or not we'll ever get to hear that in the show or whether it was literally just a kind of a toss off for the fans, I don't know. But it's definitely there and it's something to think about as we move forward, especially since the diaries continue to play such a big part.

Ashley: Such a huge part of the at mean, at the top of the episode, you know, we've kind of skipped past the first the first big blow up in our in our little family hat that our little family has and it's, you know, they read her diaries. Louis, I think she's so heartbroken that she's been, like, starving herself in her cask it and L'Estat knows she's been out eating it up, but they have no idea what she's really been doing, which is killing people and bearing them in water that's been land that's below sea level. Such a terrible idea for disposing of your bodies. You

Joel: got very

Ashley: corpses in South Louisiana, you guys.

Joel: Well, as a guy who worked in Chalmette for a while, I I don't I that would be where I would go to Berry Bodies too. Honestly, I'm a blame Klobby on that. You know,

Ashley: I She lets the cops in.

Joel: Well, no. Okay. Let's let's let's skip over the diaries that go back to them reading the diaries because

Ashley: this really

Joel: affected me, because this is something as apparent, especially, it is first of all, I I am I do believe in privacy. I think everybody should have their own space and their own private thoughts, and everybody gets to feel how they wanna feel about things. However, as a parent, especially, you you do have a duty to be sort of involved in your child's affairs. And while Claudia is not, you know, literally a child in this, especially now that she's aged up into her twenties or thirties. But at the same time, she is still a fledgling, and she's clearly making these mistakes that will not only come back on her, but could potentially cost Lisat and Louis their lives as well. I think there there is a time when you gotta read the diary And I do appreciate Louis Stance on it especially where he read what he needed to read and he didn't go further. Right. He

Ashley: didn't go

Joel: into the private thoughts. Lestat's like, I read them all. I read all the nasty things that you

Ashley: said about me. Yeah. I

Joel: read the

Ashley: nasty things about Louie. I used a funny voice to make fun of you while I read it. Yeah. Such a brat. He's such a brat. Like, I've never I had never imagined that I would see this character portrayed so perfectly. He is a fucking brat. Like, a brat. I I I just to see it in a way that's not like a childish brat, like it is a brat prints,

Joel: I

Ashley: just I don't know. I don't know. I just this guy is so fantastic. He really, really has it down.

Joel: He's so fundamentally hurt. Here. He's so through this whole episode, he is so heartbroken. And

Ashley: so you've got such a big job. Just excuse his shitty behavior. All the time.

Joel: No. No. I don't. No. Because it's not it isn't excusable.

Ashley: I am No. I know. I'm just giving you our time. I know how much you love him. Also, there also, I wanna give a shake up for the drinking game. You know, if people are drinking every time we agree. Let's

Joel: do right. We have to start arguing more. Yeah.

Joel: So

Ashley: we're gonna argue more.

Joel: I will say though that, like, in this episode especially, I thought Sam gets to play the heartbreak and the loss with the anger and the grief

Joel: and, like --

Ashley: Yes. -- and

Joel: the wrath wrath is the word that was used over and over again in the Facebook thread. And I think that's exactly what this felt like. This felt like effectively, you know, twenty three years or whatever it's been now of pent up anger at I've given you this gift. You said that you wanted it. I asked you, did you know, is this what you wanna do? And you said, yes. And you join me on this road, and I've been over backwards to to satisfy

Ashley: my teammates. You don't wanna

Joel: kill people. Yeah. I've hidden my own kills. You say that it bothers you when I screw other people. Excellent. You don't even know about it anymore. You wanted a child. I gave you a child. You wanted a a saloon. I gave you a saloon. You you want, you know, over and over again. And yet, and also, by the way, it's clear now again in this episode. Lisai has also been hiding his power. Right? Just like in the novels, he has been hiding

Joel: the

Joel: overwhelming vampiric nature that he has to offer, you know, that predator predator natural power that that Aon loves to reference so much. God, I mean, I under it's a it's a roiling fire that Louis and Claudia have been stoking here. And and then, though, The thing that I loved most from Sam in this episode, and then we'll talk about Claudia because we gotta get to to Bailey. She she really she won this episode, I think. Yeah. But Sam does one thing in this episode that I particularly love, and it's something that absolutely is true to list out in the books. I think some of the things in this episode, maybe not so much, but this is he goads. Ashley, he can't help himself.

Ashley: Mhmm. He can't

Joel: goad when she comes back, apology not accepted. When they first confront about the diaries, She says, did you read the others? Louis says no. Weather, first of all, it wasn't true. Louis got read some of them out loud and he knew that, but he didn't we don't need to go into that. Yeah. I have this information. We have to confront you about this thing you're doing wrong as a child and a parent, and we're gonna

Ashley: get a Bad vampire.

Joel: We're in a bad vampire. Right? And and listen, that is, like, no, I read the things that you said, the mean things you said about Louis, he knows them all. You know? He can't he just can't help himself. No.

Ashley: And he wants to and he wants to drive a wedge between them. He's very jealous of the connection. I mean, that's very very clear and always has been. Even though he says it's not, he says he's not, he knows he is. He can't talk to either of them the way they can talk to each other.

Joel: Boy, and that's something we we sort of downplayed in our last episode as well. The fact that Claudia and Louis have this you know, mind gift. That that is, again, neither one of them have the ability to speak telepathically or hear telepathically in the novels But here, they do. They can speak to each other. They are still blocked from the stat, but they can speak to each other. Boy, they don't use it a lot. Right? It's at least implied that they don't use it very often. First and foremost, Lrastat tells them no secrets. Please don't do that. And they both say that they're not going to but it sort of seems that they don't very often. Louie uses it once to kind of warn Claudia about her behavior. Claudia use it a few times. I think the go Louie, but

Ashley: he can't really know that. And Lestat doesn't know that. He doesn't know they don't do it very often or to to him, you know, you know, in in his the way he is. He's it's some connection that they have that he's not a part of. And so he's assuming they're using it all the time. That's how I would feel. You know, like, if I was involved with two people in that way and that they could communicate with you each other in a way that didn't involve me or didn't include me. That's why I can't be in a poly relationship y'all. I was so left out and hurt. Oh, even in a even non even in a

Joel: non romantic relationship. If you if you, you know, talk okay. Let's go to this parent

Ashley: child child child child child child child child.

Joel: Your friendships, absolutely. But I'm thinking about, like, with with my my wife, you know, my children and I e okay. I mean, obviously, we don't have favorites but at the same time, like, you have a different relationship with each child. Right? And some of those relationships some of those relationships are inherently more compatible than others. And so, like, you you develop this sort of, like, shorthand or maybe an inside joke or something. And anytime that's exposed to the family at large, it's like a raw nerve and you don't mean it that way. You don't you don't mean to hurt anybody else by having that sort of intimate connect with one of the other members. And yet, it's a slap in the face. It's a reminder, oh, none of the rest of you are in on this.

Ashley: And it's like, oh, well, that's their thing. Oh, let's let them go do their thing, you

Joel: know.

Joel: It's anyway, beautiful layers to this episode. I wanna talk about Bailey though for a second. So first and foremost, she absolutely wins the episode. She got her showcase here I I don't know if they're gonna give her another big one, but she lived up to the billing. She lived up to this role, to all of our expectations. I still don't love the accent, but she pulled her weight and then some. And the accent is never a hindrance for me at this point.

Ashley: Yeah. It doesn't matter. In it. It doesn't remember. There were a couple of times that I was like ouch, but it doesn't I mean, I let it go. I let it go really quick. One of them was in a really freaking good moment too, and I was just like, oh, why'd you do it like that? But

Joel: she says There's one of the times there's one of the times where telepathically she says, come with me, Louis, or something like that, and the way that she says it is is it was a bad read, I thought. But --

Ashley: Yeah. -- few

Joel: and far between were those were those

Ashley: Very much very much. Yeah. I mean, heiko critical.

Joel: I love that Claudia's sexuality in this series is all her own. She's not attracted or attached to Louis in that way. Louis and Lisa, neither one of them are interested in her in that way. It's called out specifically in this episode. She she says, Which one of you are gonna fuck me? Yeah. I mean, you know, which I thought, by the way, I have great delivery there. But that's it's sad because it is absurd. She knows neither one of them want her. She doesn't want either one of them. It is from the father daughter relationship.

Ashley: Turning the fucking knife, though, right there to say, oh, I like more full figured gals, you know. Let's

Joel: see. He's gotta go. He's gotta go. Everybody

Joel: knows

Ashley: that it wasn't so manipulative.

Joel: He just can't help himself though. It's it's so it's so ridiculous to win. But okay. So earlier in the episode though when they're reading the diary, the very hint of sexuality she's she makes reference to Well, I've never done every time I do it. Yeah. Both of the guys are repulsed and repelled. They dropped the diary at first. List that leaves the room, but it it shows how in so many ways so many ways. They did Claudia disservice in her

Joel: --

Ashley: Oh my god. Big time. -- crazy. God, I think it better be so fucked up to that's fucked up.

Joel: They're unprepared to resume. They're they're unprepared to resume.

Joel: They

Ashley: were not ready for a family, Joel. They were not ready. They jumped in and they were not prepared.

Joel: But they're also neither one of them are prepared or capable of raising a woman either. And here they have both, you know. Anyways,

Ashley: I think neither of them really know how to treat a woman which is an interesting thought too because they just don't I'll be interested to see how Listan and and and and and and Jesus, his mother, Gabriel, what's the relationship But how what's their relationship like? Well, I mean, we know it's pretty fucked up. But, like, they don't know how to treat a woman that, I guess, they don't know how to a woman. They don't know how to fuck. They don't wanna fuck. You know?

Joel: You're right. Well, even there, they don't I mean, I don't know. I guess he I guess he treats Antoinette. Alright. Though, doesn't he oh, by the day, Antoinette -- Oh, hey. -- back into the series

Ashley: -- Yeah. -- her flat ass, singing to her. Oh,

Joel: oh my god. I love the reference to that no ass having a white girl who sings short songs. I thought that was I would thought that was perfect. Especially because we know that Claudia has body issues. Right? So the the very idea that she's noticed. And also, he's already mentioned, I think, at that point the fuller figure thing

Ashley: too. Right?

Joel: Well, she she don't have no fuller figure. All of that was excellent. I loved, by the way, let's move forward slightly in the episode. It's in the middle of prohibition now, and so we get to go to a speakeasy.

Ashley: Oh, yeah. Was happening a very excited. I was like this.

Joel: They showing us my first thought was, is this a vampire bar or a vampire bar? It's like no. No. It's not. No. It's just prohibition. I forgot. Okay. So so we get another scene with Tom Anderson, who by the way, this actor in this portrayal is just delightful. I think Tom Anderson is fantastic. I especially like his line to Louis. I wrote it down. Let's see. It's always a straight line with you, Louis. Louis, he's talking about they're gonna ask him they've asked him to run for representative.

Ashley: Right.

Joel: And Louis just, like, so more money. It just, like, cuts straight to the point. And Tom Anderson says, it's always a straight line with you, Louis. I will say, I think that is some of Louis' problem. Louis, in

Joel: the books and in the show, deals a little bit too much with absolutes and

Ashley: Yeah. Black and white.

Joel: Yeah. He cannot allow for the gray area, the the the

Joel: sort of wandering across the line, which ends up causing him struggle after struggle after struggle after struggle, you know.

Ashley: Yeah. We'll see that time and get with him. Like, that's a constant with him. That's his constant struggle. Poor poor Louie.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I've Absolutely. There was okay. Dude, what where did I got lost thinking about Tom Anderson? That beautiful melody.

Ashley: It was a good melody. I

Joel: do hope I I hope we get one more scene with him.

Ashley: I do too. We had that slow down scene in the in the speakeasy, which I always love them using that. Using that little of Lestat's magic, and he marks his cheek. I

Joel: and so Helly asked me if that was for anything. I think it was literally just I want to hurt him. I can't really hurt him. Can't

Ashley: really?

Joel: We've you know, and I'm assuming the idea there is that he bewitched Tom, Louie Gose, and Bewich is the the police chief to sort of forget about them is the idea there. That was that's what I got from that. Yeah. Yeah. But he couldn't help on the way out the door. I'm at least gonna cut your cheeky ass hole, you know. Of

Ashley: course, it can't help it. Lrastat can never help it. God. This episode really did. I was like, god, damn it. This is everything that's terrible about Listat. All, like, shoved into fifty two minutes of discomfort for Ashley.

Joel: You know, one of our one of our listeners, Derek is reading the novels for the first time right now. He finished interview with a vampire, I think,

Ashley: for the show. Awesome.

Joel: He's

Joel: he's just finished the vampireist at the other day and has already started Queen of the damned, but he he he sent me a quote the other day from the vampireist at. You are the damnedableist creature. Mhmm. Listat. And so a quote from Marius from -- Yeah. -- the vampire listat. But he absolutely is. He is the he is the damnedest creature. And you can't he's so charismatic and he is so lovable and he is he is so good in so many ways and yet here again and again and again, you just say, boy, if you if you just kept your mouth shut, this probably would have resolved itself.

Ashley: About twenty, twenty, twenty five years of therapy would do him really good, like straight through weekly therapist. Learn how to communicate with those you love in ways other than biting them.

Joel: Just like him just like him and Daniel locked in that room in Dubai. Just chitchatting it out, figuring it out, listening to the Daniel. Cut him down again and again. Oh, speaking of Daniel, there's a great line from him here in the

Joel: middle.

Joel: He and Louis are talking about Claudia. Charlie Manson wrote a couple of beautiful songs. She was still Charlie Manson. Louis also makes a great quote there, which he repeats later, I won't have her exploited. So let's talk about the interaction between the two of them here in the middle of the episode, especially. So there are there are torn pages from the book. This was hinted at in the trailer for last week, and I thought this was maybe a call forward to the Novel Merrick there are some missing pages, some turnout pages of Claudia's diary that are used as a major plot point in the Novel Merrick. That is not what happened here. Louie removed a few pages that are directly about the interaction between and the assault from the character killer the the the young sort of biker vampire that

Ashley: meets up

Joel: with Claudia here.

Ashley: Is he that Is that the same actor that you sent me those pictures of from Instagram?

Joel: No. No.

Ashley: So that's the So I think so.

Joel: The one that I had sent you from Instagram, that guy is the guy that the fandom thinks might have been cast as our mind.

Ashley: Right. This But I've heard that guy look like same guy.

Joel: This actor looked at, and it's not the same actor, but this looks like the the cupola kid he doesn't go by cupola though. What's his name? He's in he was in all of West Anderson's movies.

Ashley: Oh, I have no use because you said Covala doesn't go by Covala and all I can think of is Nick cage now. I'm ruined.

Joel: You're gonna know him when I'd say his name, Jason Schwartzman. I thought

Ashley: of it as well as Jason

Joel: Schwartzman. So that this actor looked so much like Jason Swartz went to me, especially we watch this show occasionally on a projector in our bedroom. And we watched it today on the projector, like, during the middle of the day. And so it was all a little washed out, like, not quite as bright as you might like. But boy, with that and just the voice and the attitude, he was very Jason Schwartzman to me. Is that a story? Is a character from the novels, not exactly laid out like here. I looked him up in the alphabetity earlier today. I'll just give you the top range. So he was created in nineteen twenty five in the novels So it would have worked, I mean, theoretically, at least, but he would still be a very young grandparent if that was the case. In the novels, he doesn't show up until Queen of the Dan. He's he is in a group called the FANG Gang, which is referenced here. He's got several chapters in the queen of the damned. Alongside his girlfriend, Paramore baby jinx. And it's baby jinx killer and the FANG gang. Those are those chapters that that go along. I won't give the result of their storyline. I will say, killer has a a resurgence later in the books and shows up in the Prince Latte trilogy as well. I don't know that that will be the case here. They've changed quite a lot of things, I would say. First of all, timeline is a little different. I don't think in nineteen thirty or or, you know, nineteen twenty eight wherever we are when that takes place. I don't think that he would already be riding motorcycles. Maybe I'm wrong, but but but I it seems early to me. And then the other thing is that the the characterization of the of the killer here. I the killer is I mean, correct me somebody, please, if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I've read Queen of the damned. The last time, but I don't think the character of killer would have been a rapist. And in here, he clearly rapes Claudia. You know.

Ashley: Yeah. I don't think that that was yeah. I think I feel like this is more of like a little drop in for us, and we might see him again if we get and when we get to Queen of the dams.

Joel: Yeah. And it may be that. That will

Ashley: probably be it. But I and and if and if we do Maybe we'll get a little maybe we'll get a little justice, a little

Joel: Yeah. That's that's what I was gonna say. Like, it's for

Ashley: a justice for our clock.

Joel: Yeah. If anything seems to me like this is one of those situations where they're like, hey, hey, let's let's make somebody that we actually want to see Acacia explode at a later date.

Joel: Perhaps,

Joel: So that scene was was rough, but I think the primary reason for it was just as you said, It's not just L'Estat, any vampire, basically. It's

Ashley: stronger than her. Yeah. Good

Joel: and will crush Claudia.

Ashley: Yeah. She's just physically smaller. I mean, it's hell, I am a physically smaller person than a lot of people. And I think of myself as quite a badass, but I know that they're once you get to a certain size, I can't fight you off. You know what I mean? That's reality. That's real. And and so that is something that I think very important to show. Very important to show the danger that she is in and she doesn't even really know it.

Joel: Interesting to me too that the writers decide to give us effectively, like, a college, sexual assault

Ashley: story line. Yeah. I mean, like Way more common than any college would like to admit that happens on their campuses.

Joel: And obviously, neither one of these characters are actual students at the universities, but effectively Claudia is taking her her college years here. You know, she's been seven years wandering. And what does she tell L'Estat when she comes back that she's done? I started reading books. She educated herself. She she lived a lifetime through, you know, a gaining of knowledge, and she did that. Where would you do that in the south in the nineteen twenties college campuses? That'd be about the only place to do it. Yeah. So I I like that part of the storyline. I do know I do know a handful of people who have already said some version of. I kinda like killer. I don't I don't know what they do here, you know, but I think mostly it's just as you said. They decided to give her this experience where she interacts with an American vampire. They needed it or wanted it to be somebody from the books kind of obscure that they could change the storyline and not really affect anything. I think this mostly does it. I'm I'm kind of okay with it. I just wonder Did I mean, did we have to make it a sexual assault? I always think and, you know, ten years ago, I wouldn't have asked that question.

Ashley: No. You're right.

Joel: Rape is a common story plot. It's been used for the entire history of filmed entertainment, I would say, and and even before that, It was a common plot thread on books as well because it is a dramatic event. However, I I mean, especially like this I think Game of Thrones is what finally broke it for people. We had effectively one whole season where Sansa's just raped over and over and over and over again. And you're like, what is this all for exactly? Like who? Yeah. What are we gaining here? We've seen that she's downtrodden. You know? We've we understand called us. Yeah. We understand she's oppressed. What do we gain from and I wonder here. What do we gain from fuck? This could have been just an assault.

Ashley: It could be, but the only things I can think are the fact that it is, you know, it's easy to forget because she's a vampire that she's still a girl. She's still a woman. She's still vulnerable. She's still you know, she's one out of five women, y'all, come on. You know, I think that that I mean, in order to show her in danger. You might have to show her in danger in the way that so many women that just walk through this earth or in danger on a daily basis. And I didn't show it. It wasn't gratuitous, so it didn't bother me as much as it could have. But I do think that it's one of the few ways you can show that someone with her power and her strength is still is still in danger, is still vulnerable, as vulnerable as any woman, as any young girl would be.

Joel: This is the very reason. I told I had a conversation with someone last week, Ashley, and we were discussing future podcasting plans. And I made the statement that I will never again start a show that has a co host that is not woman probably and and and more than likely a woman of color. And it's specifically for what you just did. You gave me context on this in such a bit as a matter of fact, it's gonna be a clip. I'm gonna share that as a clip from this episode. They showed us what happens to one in five women? Like, that's the danger. What is it? What is the danger to a woman vampire? The same danger that's to a woman?

Ashley: Yeah. Just the same same reason it's scary to be a woman is the because it's scary to be a woman vampire.

Joel: Yeah. And and so that real. And so that's why they showed it, honestly. That's why they used it. Just as they've done a time and time again, they've given us opportunity to see through the lens of genre a glimpse into real life problems, real life issues, and and the real things that we face. I love

Joel: it.

Ashley: It brings our characters back down to Earth. It brings our characters, you know, back back to reality in a way like you with a fuck. How on Earth would she suspect that that could happen to her? She's a vampire.

Joel: So this is gonna be the episode that writes a thousand bad takes. I guarantee you there will be

Joel: a

Ashley: lot of them

Joel: think pieces written about this, every blog, all of -- A hundred percent. -- tumbler.

Ashley: Well, and I think that mean, you guys there's plenty to there's plenty to not like, I get it. I could get people being like, why the hell are we getting this Claudia goes around a college thing? Like, I totally get it. I mean, it's we just remind yourself, it's an adaptation. Take a breath. It's getting us it's moving the story along in a brilliant way. We're getting a lot of like, really beautiful rich storytelling. We're getting glimpses into these characters that feel really real. They don't feel they don't feel fake, and I don't feel out of place. So even though it's different, it still feels it still feels right. Well,

Joel: you know what? Everybody take a drink because I agree with you, Ashley.

Ashley: So There are two for me.

Joel: I a couple of scenes I wanna touch on before we get to the final fight properly. L'Estat is standing in the window getting dressed, and Louis is laying in a bed covered in newspapers, eating rats, and he's reading. He's

Ashley: in his depression bed.

Joel: Right. Right. He's literally in his depression desk.

Joel: We've

Ashley: all had a depression desk.

Joel: Boy, and even the outfit here in his hair is wild too. Like, I I just the whole look of of Hobo Louie is is really, really booked true. It's really, really honest. Because he's still beautiful too. Right? You

Ashley: understand him? Yeah.

Joel: Why I still why yeah. Absolutely. But anyway, Lou Lestat's getting ready. And Louie is saying, oh, this has gotta be Claudia. It's Claudia here that they're writing about. She's killed all these people and all these different universes. Reason isn't it crazy? And can you believe it is Claudia? It's got to be Claudia? And L'Estat says, it could be Claudia. But I am the one that is standing here in front of you. This oh, that was that moment. Yeah. And first of all, you can write it off as catty because he then immediate first of all, he's kinda looking out the window at Antoinette waiting on him.

Ashley: Right. And he

Joel: says, I've got all the proper appendages, and I'm a full grown, full blooded adult, unlike Claudia. And if you're going to keep overlooking my considerable considerable, and Louis isn't even listening to him. He's still rambling about Claudia and the thing. And so so let's that

Joel: leaves him. But the it's so clear there he doesn't want to. It's so clear there that he is he is depressed as well. Lrastat doesn't wear his depression bed like Louis is. But Lastat is in this deep fucking funk because he is in love with a man who may never say it or show it back.

Joel: And Ashley, as

Joel: a guy who has lived in that relationship once or twice myself, That is a depression that I I --

Joel: Oh. -- it hit me hard before we got to the end of this thing.

Ashley: It's a good deep deep ache, you know, like, being in low someone that doesn't love you back is horrible. It's so horrible. I have been

Joel: there.

Joel: It's so wonderful.

Joel: So wonderful that they show us the power imbalances. Right? Lastat is the stronger in this relationship. He has the knowledge. He has the actual physical strength. The predator natural strength. Louie is the one that's in charge of the relationship, though. Because Well, L'Estat would never abandon Louie. Louis would have to drive him away. Lastat is

Joel: the one that needs Louis. So much Lastat, Louis would have been fine these seven years alone in that house with his newspapers and rats. Lastat has stayed. Why? Because he can't be without him. Why didn't he ever abandon him? Why didn't he kill him? It's because -- Right. -- Liasat loves him in a way that Liasat can't even honestly process probably. Now that still doesn't I'm not excusing any of his actions. I'm telling you -- No. No. No. -- because you I will never hear anybody say that Lrastat doesn't truly love Louis or Lrastat isn't committed to Louis in the way that he says years, etcetera, etcetera. This episode to me shows it. I

Ashley: I know I agree with you, and I think that another thing is that the this these are Luvs that are going to be experienced in relationships that are experienced over decades and eventually centuries. And so you have to take all that shit into account too. It's not just like, I'm I had I was in love with this person when I was twenty, and they didn't love me back. It's like I've been in love with this man for three lifetimes and he still doesn't love me. You know, that's it's so much it's so much worse. And Lastat is also very egotistical in the idea that someone wouldn't fall for him. Everyone's always fallen for him. You know, why would why would you not love me the way that I deserve to be loved?

Joel: Go. Oh. The boy, and that's the actual line there. Boy, that would broke my heart personally. Alright. Let's do the last couple of scenes here. Once again, The inciting incident that brings this all to a head comes from Louie's family. Louie's mortal life is

Joel: --

Ashley: Oh, yeah. -- once and for all over, he

Joel: gets a call from Grace, meet me at the cemetery and they don't reveal it until the very end of the conversation, but Grace has marked the family Mausoleum with Louis death dates. Louis died fifty three years old, nineteen thirty, and she says, I need this. From my family and says goodbye to him. I thought there was a grace scene. I don't think we're gonna see grace again. I I

Ashley: don't think so either. Here's the resolution to serve the purpose, and and we're at that we're at that point of separation now that's that you can't go back?

Joel: Yes. Absolutely. And Whelan is the final straw. Like, she made the choice for Louis, which honestly sort of feels very true to to book Louis, Louis, never a decisive fellow. Grace makes the choice for him. Your your mortal life is over. You're done now. We're you're

Joel: disconnected

Joel: from everything. Yeah. You did. I'm gonna

Ashley: take the trust.

Joel: Well, that's the other thing. Wanna I mean, I don't wanna imagine it's also that there's not much of the trust left. She says the

Ashley: No. She says the Stop market crash,

Joel: wiped it out. Yeah. But but moving up north, I wonder if we'll see we know in the in the novels, some vampires sort of track their human families. I wonder if Louis will ever try to see how the friendlier family now that they're not point delax anymore. How the friendlier family fares over time. Will we ever get maybe even a bad bet? That's a descendant of of the Feneers that Louis revisits at some point in one of the the future seasons. That's an interesting something that's out there, but I think the point of this I

Ashley: think they've probably let it go. I think they'll I think this is it for for his, you know, his mortal life. And we're also about to shove off across the ocean. I mean, we don't have too much more time in New Orleans right now.

Joel: Well and I think that's the real point. The real point was to put Louis in a bad way even more than he was, like one final moment to send him home literally in tears, and then Claudia capitalizes on that moment to return. And boy, the beginning of this scene, again, we've already praised Bailey, but the beginning of this scene is so good. They have this beautiful reunion, Louis and Claudia Du, where it's so clear the Oh, it's a section that they have for each other.

Ashley: And thanks, sir, for coming back.

Joel: But the record scratch as the the record scratch as the stat stops it. And I just knew I was like, Oh, well,

Ashley: I mean, and also We're in for it now. I could

Joel: feel the run time was almost done too. Right? I'm like, well, here we go. This is our final --

Ashley: Yeah. -- this is our

Joel: final scene. From the moment that she entered, I think Listat was hot, and I think there would have been a physical altercation no matter what else happened. However Oh,

Ashley: yeah. It was very

Joel: both goed each other into it. Claudia then abandons. They start just literally hugging on either arm of Louis and Louis again, just as we just said, indecisive as always, doesn't make a choice, doesn't stand up for himself, and leaves it to these two hothead assholes to resolve.

Ashley: Which I'll find out.

Joel: Yeah. Well, but you can't be surprised that honestly, at that point, you can't be surprised when Louis doesn't get between them in some way, some physical way that Lestat ends up throwing Claudia. Which is the impetus then for the actual fight. Louis Louis then finally retaliates and and begins to physically fight L'Estat and then it's on. You know, I mean, it's it's a it's a freaking it's John Wick four except it's all off the

Ashley: shelf. It was That was so great though. What a great what what a great lens to show that through? She's giving it giving most of it to us from from, like, Claudia's perspective. We were with her through most of that fight most of that fight we wouldn't actually want to see, I'm sure. So getting to see just, like, bits and pieces of it were so violent and horrifying. Like, when Louis hit the wall, like, by the door, Jesus Christ. And there and there were these claw marks up and down this the the stairwell up and down the the stair handle. Jesus. It was so violent. It was so brutal.

Joel: Well, in already earlier in this episode, we had seen from Louis what the what these fingernails can do as he was carving the dining room table. Right? So we see how dangerous a and we've seen earlier, L'Estat scratches the cheek with no effort whatsoever. Yes. These are deadly dangerous weapons on their hands and here they've been put to use against each other in a in an animalistic, terrible way. You're absolutely right. Having it all be portrayed through Claudia's eyes though, honestly, is more affecting than if they had just shown it as an outright brawl

Ashley: because

Joel: it so clearly is that mommy

Joel: and daddy are beating the shit up with each other. In this case, mommy and daddy happen to be very powerful vampires. But still -- Right. -- Jesus, it was I mean, just uncomfortable and sad and and frightening and triggering? Absolutely. And

Ashley: just and and also, like, just for people who like fights in in movies and theater, Joel and I both have stage combat training and learn how to sword fight when we were college. So seeing a really good fight that's well, constructed, and well done. Like, it was really impressive on that side of it too, like, just the structure of it. And

Joel: that tells a narrative. Right? Like you saw, the moment the moments where L'Estat would would not give up, but would relent and would be sort of let go for a second, and then Louis would attack. And then Louis was sort of pleading that it was over, but then something would push lisat over the top, and he

Ashley: would go right

Joel: in. All of those moments are you know, Mark Gwin's our our theater professor and and fight director and and mentor in this

Ashley: area. Or yeah.

Joel: I all one of the things that's always stuck with me for him is he's like, you know, you can have a big battle scene where you have fifteen thousand extras and they're all fighting each other. But if you can't follow the narrative of the battle, what is happening here -- Right. -- not just inter interpersonally for each individual combatant, but the overall arc of the battle. How do things go? Then it's worthless. Here, we don't see most of the battle and yet the arc of it. The story of the battle. How things went? Is so clear, honestly. Yeah. Really well done. Really well done even though it's disgusting.

Ashley: Oh, horrifying. The most horrifying thing I think I've ever one of the most horrifying things I think I've ever seen in a television show or a movie ever was him dragging Louie by his Xin Right. This I'm assuming he had Probably, like But it was like a manageable. Like Jesus Christ. That felt like a wrestling move gone so wrong.

Joel: Like, you would've been dragging

Ashley: him down.

Joel: That's what I thought. Like, you shove your like, shove your hand into their gills and you're holding the the gills kind of thing. That's what it felt like and it was it was oh, that was terrible. That was terrible. But there, again, even then, even here in this moment of brutality as he's dragging Louis out, he can't help but goad Claudia calls out to

Ashley: him. Yeah. On the

Joel: list, please. And he says, oh,

Ashley: it's on the list. Suddenly. Oh, yeah.

Joel: And then he told her, and she says, take me take me and you're

Ashley: I'm the one. And he's like, I, it was never you.

Joel: It was never you. And honestly, first of all, First of all, as many of the other things that Liztad has said in this episode, there's truth there. Right? It was never he didn't want Claudia. At least he's portrayed in this we we may find when Lisette tells his own story that he had his own thinking about Claudia Long, and we haven't seen those yet. But as laid out so far, this was what Louis wanted, and it was a way for L'Estat to keep him there.

Joel: To

Ashley: keep Louis there. Yep. So much of so much of what he has. Bailed. Yeah. Miserably because this is I mean, our our our dynamic duo is on the way out the door. We've got two episodes left. This is gonna be all about the grand exit.

Joel: So he so he tosses off this line to Claudia. It was never you And then he has since Sam told us in the the official podcast and the the I think it was the second episode where they did their Sam Reid interview. Sam mentioned that the the cloud gift was coming, and we see it here. I think it's beautifully done, by the way. Hey, here's a moment I wanna take to say. I mentioned earlier we watched this on the projector sort of like watched out not as bright as you would want. My second my second watch is always on my iPad. I've got an iPad Pro that's got like the crazy XDR screen. I turned my brightness up. I can see everything beautifully. I can see every detail. But this show, If you're not watching it on a low quality projector in the middle of the day, is unlike Game of Thrones or House of Dragon, I've heard as well, You can always see things. Even though it's filmed all at night, even though it's all often filmed in the dark, everything is still available to see. They're not hiding things in the shadows. That is a choice that a lot of cinematographers make, especially in the world of of HDR. I understand you want that dynamic range. You wanna live in the black like you're the godfather. You know, the cinematographer for the godfather said he wanted to play right on the edge of shadow and there's a lot of scenes in those movies where that is absolutely the case you're right there on the level of black or or can you see anything at all? This show does a great job of that, and I just wanted to call it out. The cloud scene is one of those where every it's the middle of the night, but everything is still there for you to see. It's a lovely display of power. It's a lovely display of the city. And of of, you know, the special effects that they've built here, all in the middle of this incredibly heart wrenching brutal moment as L'Estat drains Louis as he flies him up into the air, and then he basically begs him for a breakup. You know, just tell

Joel: me that you're never gonna love me. It would be so much easier for me.

Ashley: And the thing is is I don't think at ever any point Louis doesn't love L'Estat here. Maybe up until this big ass fight happens. He just doesn't love him the way he wants to be loved. Maybe you asshole should have a conversation about that, you think?

Joel: Boy, thirty years of of That

Ashley: might have been a conversation before you had a baby. I don't know. I I don't know.

Joel: Might have been a conversation before you decided to become a vampire and live the rest your life with this dude too. But, you know, who am I saying that? Listen

Ashley: to me. Wait a judge. We don't know. We're not vampires.

Joel: The younglings that are listening to us though, here's here's the lesson to take away from this. Don't rush into a marriage, friends. We're we're not tied to each other for immortality, perhaps, and our exits don't have to be like this. But at the same time, a long term relationship is a commitment. Don't go into a daily.

Ashley: Have a I don't think a baby's gonna fix your problems.

Joel: Yeah. Baby is never gonna fix your

Joel: problems.

Joel: So I do I do I do love though that he drains Louie. I think this is a I I do like that part of it. He's beat the shit out of him here, but I think the draining is one of those things that powerful vampires do often do to weaker ones. And it is it's still intimate. It is still involved in their relationship. He's taking Louis into himself and yet Also, he's punishing him and physically hurting him and

Ashley: He's taking back what he gave him in a way. Yes.

Joel: Yes. Exactly. And then Louie says Put me down. I I still don't know how I feel about Listat dropping Louie. Listat's

Ashley: so long. Way down. So long as way.

Joel: First of all, first of all, I don't think I don't think Louis in the books would have survived that fall. I think he would have been a little brain mush all over the sidewalk. And that would have been the end of it. But but still, this is this is even more than the beating. This is the moment for me that I think we've talked about how much I think Anne would love the show. I think Anne would have hated this episode.

Ashley: Yeah. She would not have loved this. I don't think

Joel: She never wrote L'Estat beating Louis, not like this. L'Estat does a

Ashley: lot of things. We actually talked about that last episode. I think that we like, things don't normally get physical between the two of them violently, you know.

Joel: Now if this was season two and this is an Armandless dot fight, makes total sense. Absolutely from the books. They beat the hell out of each other a lot of different times throughout history. But but

Ashley: he's not that way with Louis, generally.

Joel: Well,

Joel: in the dry dropping specifically, like the dropping him from I mean, I understand the way that it played out in the show. It makes sense. And and I'm I suppose they could come back and retcon this too and say, Oh, it didn't actually happen that way. It was

Ashley: at -- Yeah. -- infancy.

Joel: And this is, you know, Claudia's thinking, but I don't know, it was a lot for me. I Will you give me, like, thirty seconds real quick?

Ashley: Of course.

Joel: Yeah. Just a second. Alright. Sorry about that. Yeah. I listen, I got so upset about my poor baby list out that I I was the clamped. I needed to go collect myself for a

Joel: minute.

Joel: No. I So, yeah, I don't know I don't know about the dropping. I'm I I mean, I understand why they did it. I I understand how it's gonna play out in the season, I think. And Again, this had to escalate.

Ashley: Great special effects. Oh, to

Joel: fantastic special effects. Holy shit. And one imagines imagines we're gonna get some good special effects in the next episode as list as Louis repairs himself.

Ashley: Heels. Yeah. I

Joel: mean I mean is Oh, it's I Listat's gotta get in blood. Right? That's going to be the immediate resolution. Listat's

Ashley: gonna get in blood. He has, like, Claudia's probably isn't enough to fix him.

Joel: Yes.

Ashley: No. Yeah. He's gonna need some help. Yeah. He was in bad shape when we saw him crunch up on the ground. I'll say this. He's looking like some looking like some stranger things shit up in there.

Joel: Should I know right? God those legs all the Kimball.

Joel: The

Joel: the violence is not over for the season, folks. So if this if this was heavy for you, go ahead and prepare yourself. I don't know whether it's coming next episode or whether it's coming in the in the seventh episode, but this

Ashley: We know what's coming.

Joel: Yeah. This family does not end well. I'm afraid. And we we already know that it is fundamentally flawed and fractured. And so it is going to be delicious and also Hard

Ashley: Digitously horrifying. Right.

Joel: Yeah. Delitiously horrifying. There you go.

Ashley: There you go.

Joel: Such wondrous trails. So well written, so well portrayed on screen, and yes. What an awesome season this has been? Horrible to watch. And don't isn't it fascinating how they're able to portray just as ended in our novels the horrific nature of humanity itself, not vampirism. Right? Like, it's not the vampire powers really that make these

Ashley: -- Oh.

Joel: --

Joel: so terrible one another.

Ashley: Yes. It's the human parts that they don't know how to work anymore or ever. If they ever knew how to be, you know, how to deal with rejection, how to deal with love, how to be a good partner, how to be a good parent, how to be, you know, a friend. You know, it's like, Jesus Christ is the same stuff we all have trouble with.

Joel: Mhmm.

Joel: Yes. Absolutely true. Alright. Let's let's move into our easter egg section. There's a couple of things to talk about here as we get ready for the the final two episodes. Folks, go watch episode six and join us next week if you're not into some of the speculation territory. If so, continue onward with that warning. Boy, Ashley, they went right off the top and blew all of our theories about Rashid being a vampire or

Ashley: Oh, yeah. They were like, those dumb dumps really thought they'd do what was up. He's not a vampire.

Joel: So I did see some speculation even in our our Facebook group, the thread there where people were like, well, I don't know. I mean, Louis Drake a whole lot from him. He didn't seem to be even losing his soul. But but Louie specifically calls out before Rashid offers himself to me, he eats What was it?

Joel: Pineapple

Ashley: in Honey.

Joel: Yeah. Pineapple in Honey. And we've already established that vampires don't eat food. So that's not the and you wouldn't need it to sweeten vampire blood. Vampurate blood is is its own drug. So I'm gonna say here definitively, I say Rashid's not a vampire, which just makes his whole story line a whole hell of a lot more interesting, honestly, for me. Who is he?

Joel: Why is he here

Joel: with Louis? Like, how did they get connected? Is this in this episode, I would say, More so than any other, I think this might actually be Louis House. This Rashid, in this episode, says to me, I am working for Louis, not for anybody else. The nature of the way that he defends him and talks about him here, Rashid clearly has affection for Louis in a way that we work. Certain, I think, before this.

Ashley: Right. Right. Before it very much seemed kind of master servant sort of thing, Whereas Or even somebody else's service Not even someone else's invited me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like a like a little bit more standoff in but everything seemed quite more quite more intimate this time around.

Joel: Yeah. I I really don't know where they're going with this, but I am super excited about it. Reshid also interesting little comment. He tells Daniel that this is a suicide attempt, this this book that they're writing together, that as soon as it's public, public, these powerful vampires all over the world are gonna

Ashley: They're gonna be after Louis. They're

Joel: gonna scale this tower and they're gonna paint these walls with Louis blood. Interesting to me, that line really feels like something and maybe I'm misremembering. But it really feels like something that said to L'Estat when he's making his plans about the vampire L'Estat clear. I'm gonna write these songs. Gonna be a rock star. I'm gonna make these shadows. I feel like maybe even Marius says the old ones are gonna hunt you down and kill you. I can't

Ashley: Yeah. That's definitely part of the conversation. Like, that's a a hundred percent part of the conversation. That's definitely discussed. Like, that's like, Here come, if people know what you are and what you've done that you've told people about us, it's on motherfucker. I mean, that's even Yeah. It's all about the car. It occurred

Joel: to me. It occurred to me. And we've talked before about are they gonna give Louis you know, some of Lestat's adventures since they're clearly trying to make Louis more of a main character throughout the series, one would imagine. Here's an example where maybe it's Louie's story and the hubbub around it that forces Lestat's hand in making music of some sort and trying to awake Acacia, maybe he's trying to protect Louis. Like, maybe the maybe the old ones do

Ashley: rise up against the attention off of him.

Joel: And

Joel: and -- Yeah. -- and and the status, like, the only one that can save him is Akasha Al Waker. You know?

Ashley: Hey. Hey. Look over here. Or he's just trying to distract them.

Joel: Yeah. I don't know. But there's it's interesting ways. Interesting ways they could go there. I am fairly certain though at this point based on those conversations between Rashid and Daniel and Louis. These modern day events are pre queen of the damned. DiCasha has not awoken yet or at least is not public yet. And I I think we're still gonna get here.

Ashley: Oh, I think so too. I mean, how could you not tell that story? It's so it's so lush. You know what the hell they the only other one they made a movie out of. Right. Go back go back and fix it. I know you want to guys. If they really care about this, we're old in these books. They wanna fix that movie.

Joel: I I mentioned earlier Derek just finished the vampire list, and he was telling me how much he enjoyed the insane before the concert, which occurred to me like, boy, what if that is the first time that we see Louis and L'Estat together in the modern day? Is that the concert? It'd be really beautiful as a way to sort of like bring that all together. And from then on, we can have modern day adventures, but Anyway, that would be very fitting and very true to the novel actually. So

Ashley: Yeah.

Joel: One more thing. The Uh-oh.

Joel: There was one other Where was it?

Joel: Oh. Oh. Oh. Okay. There is a really, really excellent thread that I found on later this past week, and I wanna put this link in the show notes as well. A historical thread. This comes from Dominique. It's just a list of things in this first season that they could pull direct historical context. There's some maps and layouts of StoryVille for instance. There are some pamphlets of, like, blue books, which were guides to the Story Vills, a sec services. One of which, by the way, Lastat is reading in the scene in the square when they're when they're looking at when he's reading the like, hey, this square did such and such whatever.

Ashley: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Apparently

Joel: from a blue book. He's also got a blue book earlier when he is first getting to New Orleans looking for Louis. He's holding a blue book there. There's some stuff about Tom Anderson, who I've already mentioned how much I love him in this show. He's he's a real life historical figure, and they've got some stuff there. There's a bunch of stuff about Jelly Roll Morton and the the madams, the different madams that are shown in the in the show. So Anyway, go and read the whole thread. It's linked in the show notes. It's very, very cool stuff and a bunch of stuff that I didn't know or hadn't heard of. I think Dominique is gonna do some more of these in the future. They just kinda like literally ran out of room in this thread.

Ashley: Oh, that's awesome. That's so much fun. This was one of my favorite things about about shows that are set in a historical context. You know, it really lets us gives you good excuse to kind of delve into a little bit of history.

Joel: Absolutely. Absolutely. I am excited. That they brought Antoinette back. I mentioned this in the show. Antoinette is a gender swap version of Antoine from the novel I think that gender swapping makes perfect sense here specifically because it causes more of a --

Ashley: Yeah. -- a

Joel: rift between Louis and Les start exactly because she is a white woman in public. The two of them could be seen together, and that is one of those things that eats at at Louis more than anything else. She's still alive. L'Estat says in this episode too, Louis, when they're he's trying to sort of patch it. He says, I'll kill her soon. But we don't see it. We I don't believe that it happened. And I think I think she will come back in the next couple of episodes and play exactly the role that Antoine does in

Ashley: the novel. That yes. The role that we expect.

Joel: Yes. Yes. So, man, I am so excited to see how this works. I am so excited about how I move into season two. My speculation that I hinted at earlier in the trailer. And again, correct me if I'm wrong, Ashley. But I don't

Ashley: Well, I didn't get the damn trailer. Oh, you didn't see the trailer? No. I don't get it. So tell me.

Joel: In the trailer, I don't believe that we see or hear anything from the modern day. We only see the past story. I wonder if episode six will not be endless dots' voice. Oh, I wonder if we won't see I I wonder if we won't see a scene or two from the honest to god vampire Leshat. But, specifically, I wonder if they're not going to show us this the the attack on L'Estat through his voice.

Ashley: Okay. That sounds very exciting. I didn't think we'd get to see to hear from him until next season. But I would love to hear from him this season.

Joel: Having having thought about it all this week the fact that they put that in last week's episode, you see the snippet of the vampire lassad and the diary there. I don't think that is just a hint. I think we're going to get there. I think we're gonna get there even the beginnings of it this season. And I do think it'll be short because we're not really talking about L'Estat yet. We're really talking about Luis still. And even the Claudia sections, you see Daniel do that. He's like, you you Louis says, just read. And Daniel says, just keep talking. You know, like Daniel's there for an interview with you. I wanna hear your words on this. I can read this in my off time. I wanna hear your words from it. So I think we might get, like, a snippet like that from the start, but it occurred to me boy, that would be a way to really make that as affecting as this was and also give us a little hint at what they might do with season two. My speculation, lots of people are speculating this online. I think season two because we'll have lots of storyline without L'Estat in it. I think we're going to get the vampire L'Estat storyline alongside Claudia and Louis. Yes. I think we're gonna get both of those running at the same time, and then they will meet at the end of season two. In Paris at the climax of the vamp you know, the interview with the vampire story there as that all comes to a head. I mean, that That's the way that it happens to the novel anyway. I think you will see it play out like that. And then and then That's

Ashley: a really smart way to do it because then you don't have to give up one of your great for a whole damn season.

Joel: Especially as we said, you then you go into season three where

Joel: you're barreling into the queen of the damn story in the modern day, and you've already got most of Lestat's backstory. The the person

Ashley: taken care of. Yeah.

Joel: Yeah.

Joel: Out of the way. I mean, honestly, they can dive into a lot of the Myriad stuff and the those who must be kept. All of that could come concurrent with the modern day queen of the damn storyline. In a way that doesn't exactly play out that way in the novels, but I think that might make more sense and you keep sort of like your themes aligned in your modern day story line. In your in your past story line, you know?

Ashley: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Keep it keep it yeah. Keep it on track.

Joel: Anyway, boy, aren't you glad you're speaking to? Can

Ashley: speak a lot about that already. I know. I'm so happy. Can you imagine getting freaking just left hanging, like it's carnival from HBO, bastards. I'm still mad about that.

Joel: I think all the time, I think about the inside on Fox. It was like a serial killer cop show, and they did I think they made thirteen episodes, and Fox showed six of them a two

Ashley: with a background

Joel: order, and then they never showed anything else again. I yeah. Every time I think about it, I'm still pissed off.

Ashley: Yes. Two seasons carnival and they just left us hanging. Jeez.

Joel: What a great show too. That's not gonna happen here. Speaking of this speculation currently, the rumors, the hubbub, about Hollywood, is that not only do we have season two of interview with the vampire confirmed, not only do we have season one of Mayfair which is coming in January. The rumors say that there is a third series from the immortal universe of Ann Rice and AMC already in preproduction what that could be. Right. I

Ashley: Did they buy them mommy? Usually,

Joel: Well, no. But you so you've got all these spin off characters. Right? You've got characters like Arman who has a whole story to tell. You've got characters like Marius who have a whole story to tell. I would have said two, three weeks ago that it was the vampire lassette, and we were

Ashley: Yeah. They were gonna spin off. Yeah.

Joel: I don't think we are now. I don't think we are. So Is that third show a tales of the Tallamaska? As I have speculated in the past, we get it's like something that skips through time and all sorts of supernatural creatures. Is it just the next vampire to get a spin off for instance. If our our our little buddy from Instagram that you referenced earlier, let me let me find that kid's name by the way, It's the guy who plays one of the one of the kids' sons on Lois and Superman.

Ashley: Ugh.

Joel: What is the kid's name? Yeah. So the superman and Lois, the guy's name is Alex Garfin. He plays Alex Garfin plays Jordan Kent. So it's Jordan Kent and Jonathan Kent are the two sons. Jonathan Kent, by the way, in the comics, is a gay character or a bi character, I think. And is display show is is played as such in the show, I believe, too. I was thinking that maybe Alex Garfun was playing the the sun that was by, but I don't believe he is. Anyway, Alex Garthan has followed Bailey Bass on Instagram and Bailey Bass has followed him. They like every single one of each other's posts and they comment on every single one of each other's posts. Alex Garfin in particular has commented a couple of times some version of from the first time we worked together to the last time we worked together or something like that, and they've never actually worked together yet, not publicly. So not that we're aware of anyway. So That's the speculation.

Ashley: See Joe's been doing a little sleuth thing.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah, man. I I I had to chase it down. People were talking about this guy and some And he's made apparently, he deleted a bunch of old stuff on his Instagram recently and changed his quote to something that's, like, you ain't seen nothing yet or something like that. Anyway, If if he comes, don't say that I didn't tell you. I don't know that that'll be our arm on, but I think it's possible. And if you cast a guy like that, maybe that's part of the deal is, like, hey, you're gonna be the the primary villain of season two. You'll have And

Ashley: then you'll have your ongoing roles,

Joel: but also we're gonna tell your own story. Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah.

Joel: So I don't I don't know. I don't know what that third show will be. I don't know for sure that there already is one. And even if it is in preproduction, just like with all of these Star Wars, shows and Marvel shows that spin up and then some of them end up being, oh, now it's a movie. Oh, now it's not a show at all, you know, whatever. Anyway, I that's the hubbub. Now you know as much as I do. I'm super excited to see where this goes. I'm super excited to see how they continue to roll it out. It's clear that it's been success. The numbers are good. The ratings are good. Yeah. The the reviews are good. And let's just keep watching and supporting and sharing it and and watch this thing grow.

Ashley: Hell, yes. I'm here for every bit of it.

Joel: I really I really wanna see my boys punch somebody other than each other.

Ashley: Yeah. It'd be nice. It'd really be nice if they were made to somebody else for a minute. Hello? Well, I just wanna see some I I just wanna see

Joel: some mean vampires, I guess, Ashley, so that that we can punch vampires and I don't have to feel so extra substantially bad about

Ashley: that. Emotionally attached to it. You can you can just enjoy the good good old fashioned vampiric violence.

Joel: Folks, thank you again so much for all of you who are listening and giving us great feedback. Thank you for the conversations that continue on the Facebook group and and the Twitter feedback that's been really good. Had a couple of new people reach out to me over the weekend to say that, you know, they just found the show and are really happy to see that that there's one out there. There are a handful of us out there talking about this show, but we're glad that you've joined us for the conversation.

Ashley: Yeah. Hell, yeah. We are happy to be here and talking about it.

Joel: Yes. Any final thoughts on this episode before we all sing our sad songs all week long while we wait for our our boys to again.

Ashley: I feel like I've run myself out pretty properly about it. I I felt a lot for Oclaudia this episode. I'm not gonna lie, but I'm looking forward to next week I can't wait to see what happens. Can't wait to see this the second to last episode I have a feeling is really gonna take us for a ride.

Joel: The next episode is entitled like angels put in hell by God. I love the titles for the show. All polls work. Of course, this is another good one, and we'll be back to talk about it next Sunday night. Folks, until we are back, we've been your hosts.

Ashley: Ashley Wright Eiler.

Joel: I'm Joel Sharpton, and we are the articulate incumbent.

Joel: Thanks for listening to the Articulate Cove. You can join our community on Facebook by following the links in the show notes. Or searching for articulate coven on Facebook. You can subscribe to the show in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, or at articulatecoven dot com and share us with your AmRice loving friends.