Mike recounts his recent vacation and how it led to a profound realization about neurodiverse travel experiences. He and Chaya reflect on the pressure to conform to typical social activities and how fulfillment can be found off the beaten path by embracing your own unique itinerary.

We Also Cover:

• The liberation of discarding societal checklists
• How being neurodivergent allows you to redefine what fun means
• Permission to go at your own pace
• Letting go of external judgements on what you "should" do
• Finding tranquility in simplicity
• Choosing travel companions who respect neurodivergent needs

Quotes:

• "What may seem like nothing to an allistic person is everything to a neurodivergent."
• "Not caring what other people may think about my version of fun, that's the big when you're a neurodivergent."
• "That was me living in who I am as a neurodivergent, doing what is comfortable for me."
• "We always are seeking for that approval, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And because we are a minority, the neurodivergent people, it's way more challenging for us to to be ourselves."

As always, thanks for lending us your ears and keep igniting that spark!

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• ADHD Coaching & Workshops: https://www.sparklaunch.org/
• Chaya on Instagram
• Mike on Instagram
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You've landed at Spark Launch, the Guide star for embracing what it means to be neurodiverse. I'm Mike Cornell, joined by CEO of Spark Launch, Chaya Mallavaram.

Here we navigate mental health triumphs and tribulations from all across the spectrum, charting a course of the shared experiences that unite us and discovering how to embody the unique strengths within neurodivergent and neurotypical alike, igniting your Spark and launching it into a better Tom.

Hello, everyone. I'm Mike.

I'm Chaya

And welcome to today's episode of Spark Launch. Just Chaya and I today. So I went on vacation and I had a really good time. I had a fun experience. I went to Dollywood, went to Tennessee.

I was struck with the fact my vacation was a little bit different than, I think, the way an allistic might go on vacation. A way where a lot of people would kind of look at what I did a little sideways and go, but did you really do anything?

And I like to think my vacation was very neurodivergent. I went with friends who are neurodivergents and we kind of just followed what we are. So let me walk you through a little bit of what I mean by that.

For instance, we went to, went to Dollywood the day after we. We arrived.

So you go to Dolly, what you expect, you like, oh, you're going to go into all these places and, you know, buy things, go on rides, all this stuff. We didn't do any of that.

We just walked around and talked and took pictures of things and took pictures of ourselves in front of things and joked about stuff. And I think we went into an arcade once and we went into. We got ice cream. That was great. That was fantastic. And we didn't go on a single ride.

We were going to go on like a dark ride or something. I'm not a roller coaster person. Ended up doing none of that.

We just kind of kept looking at lines and going like, eh, you know, or just teetering around. We just never felt the need to stop. We were just talking and looking at stuff. And after that we went back to the Airbnb.

We just then watched some movies and went to bed.

And the next day we got up, we watched some more movies as we did things we would do if we were just like at my house, but we were in an Airbnb, we're at a cabin and we decided, like, okay, what do we want to do today? You know, we were looking at like, museum, like some Museums. And we were looking at prices of them.

We're like, eh, do we really care that much to go to like some tourist trappy like museums and pay like that much? Like maybe we'll see how we feel. Let's go out. Like there was a comic book store. Let's go to a comic book store.

So we went to a comic book store and then we just kind of drove for a little while and looked at things out the car window. We stopped to get something to eat and then got back. Like, let's go and maybe see about this. This one.

Like there was a crime museum, real tourist trappy spot that was like shaped like Alcatraz and stuff. Like, okay, let's go there. We discovered the parking there was difficult and being once again, this is a very neurodivergent vacation.

We went, that's too difficult. Let's just not do that.

So we drove some more and just pointed at stuff and had conversations about things that we saw and kind of just like looked at maps and made comments. And eventually we settled on going to a couple of souvenir shops that we didn't really buy anything in.

We just wanted to see what they were like because they had like animal mouths on the outside or they had interesting names like goats on the roof. Once again, didn't buy anything there. Just kind of looked.

We were really into looking at a going to a Target that was really, really big because it was the size of a mall. We were like, we have to see this mall sized Target.

And it struck me that anybody else going on vacation would be like, you spent all that money, you went all that way, it's eight hours away and you just did that. Yeah, yeah, I'm really, really happy that I just did that.

Like we spent most of our time at the Airbnb watching stupid movies we could have watched anywhere. Doing the same thing we could have done anywhere. We didn't really, we didn't do anything that would be fundamentally seen as cool stuff.

Like going to a lot of like those touristy spots or you know, they had like zip lines and there was like this parrot rescue and all this stuff. Like one of like my favorite parts of the trip was the GPS took us down like a really winding road. And it was really unnerving and kind of scary.

But we were all kind of like united in how ridiculous the situation was. So it just became like a running joke for like the rest of the trip. We never got out of the car for that.

And we kept like, we drove into Gatlinburg and it was so packed full of people, we decided not to get out and do anything. Which, once again, I was struck with. This is very neurodivergent. This is like we're still seeing it. Like, we are literally sightseeing.

We are seeing the sights and doing nothing else. And part of me, like, there was this little voice in me that was kind of going, like, but isn't that kind of a waste? Like, you're.

Can't you go out and like, go into some of these stores and like, look around and like, experience some of it? But no, I was very content with what we were doing. I was happy living in that moment with my friends.

And we were all happy living in that moment doing those exact things.

Like, I think we all had that call that we were going to go out of our way to do things, because that's what you're supposed to do in situations like that. You're supposed to do things, these sorts of activities in a very specific sort of way.

And we all had that call to it and we were all kind of even saying it a little bit out loud. But it came down to it, that's not where our hearts were.

Like, our hearts weren't in the vacation being that it was in taking our time and going at our own pace and doing the what we wanted to do. And that was kind of like we went somewhere else to be homebodies.

And I think years ago I would have seen like, how much, you know, maybe how much I spent on like tickets to Dollywood or blah, blah, blah, and gone like, oh, but I didn't do enough to like, justify all that. But now I feel like, no, I didn't do enough to justify that. That for me, that was what I wanted. I got exactly what I wanted out of that trip.

And it wasn't what was, quote unquote, normal. You know, a lot of other people would probably look at that. Once again, I think holistic neurotypical would look at that and go, what do you mean?

You just saw too many people there. You went all the way to Tennessee and you saw too many people walking around outside.

You didn't want to do like, go up to any of those stores and do anything. Like, yeah, we talked about doing an arcade, but eventually we were just like, eh, we've been in the car long enough.

We just wanted to go back to the cabin, could have taken it or left it kind of deal. And I don't feel like that's a waste.

I don't feel like, no, that was me Living in who I am as a neurodivergent, doing what is comfortable for me, but also what I actually find fun because I'm. I didn't feel like I was losing out by avoiding those crowds or not doing any of the, quote, unquote, regular, you know, touristy stuff. I didn't.

I didn't miss out doing that. I was comfortable and I felt more alive there than I have in a while.

So you gave permission to yourself.

Yes.

To follow your heart and enjoy the moment and not follow a structured vacation, which. Which is not about following what's inside us. Right. It's about following an itinerary. Not getting that word, but following. Following an itinerary.

Right. And not honoring how you feel at that moment, but still going after that checklist and so close to you.

To have actually followed your heart and not listen. Listen to other things that your mind might have said. And this is where the clutter of the mind takes over.

And so you actually bypassed all of that and went straight to your heart and did what you enjoyed. And not just you. All of you did that and you had a great time. And so that. That's a lot. Right? It's not just you, but.

But it also meant that you connected, you honored somebody else's feelings and that other person also honored your feelings. And you all somehow magically, things happen for you. So that's amazing.

And as I was listening to your story, I felt I was in a movie, in a Hollywood movie, because that's what movies are. It was funny. It was. You book this ticket to go off to this place for adventure, and you don't do any of those adventures that you thought you would.

And other mundane things happened, but they were enjoyable. They were. You. It reminded me of Seinfeld show, which.

Is show very much. It's very, very much. And trust me, my friends will take that as a compliment. Even, like on the way down during the road trip, which I.

I was probably most excited for the road trip there and that. And that was a. That was great. We stopped at. We were originally going to stop, like, stop constantly, but we ended up only ever stopping in one place.

We came across, like, this antique mall. Of course, whenever you're on. On the road, there's about a billion antique malls to pull in tourists and people on road trips.

We lost about three and a half hours there. And this was like pure adhd. Ooh, look at that. Ooh, look at that. Ooh, look at that. Ooh, look at that. I spent.

I spent a lot of money Buying crap and also took pictures, a lot of things, but also just enjoyed looking at stuff like, oh my God, look at.

I, I bought so in the 90s and when I was a kid I had the McDonald's put out these collector glasses for Batman movie and I had a bunch of them and then they kind of disappeared. I, I've, and I've looked at them on ebay and stuff and they're usually like a lot.

Never quite like pulling the trigger on actually buying them, but I kind of want like that part of my childhood to like come back or something. And I found all of them there, like five bucks a pop. So I naturally bought all of them.

But like looking at old comics and like old vinyls or just, just weird off the wall stuff you would find there. And that's what all we kept doing. We kept just going like, look over here, over here.

And just like pulling ourselves into different corners and showing each other things we'd come across and old toys and just like strange shot skis and just things that like ended up in this strange antique mall in the middle of nowhere. Like that. That is one of my favorite memories. And we, we weren't on a schedule, you know, we, we lost so much time there.

Like I said, three and a half hours walking around one antique mall. It didn't feel like three and a half hours. It didn't, it didn't feel like it was that long.

And even when we went to Dollywood that morning, we got up, we watched a movie, we piddled around a little bit. We didn't get to Dollywood until like noon, like 1:00. I don't even know.

And I kept thinking like, man, if I was on a, like a vacation that I'm used to, this would have been 100% on a schedule. We wouldn't have had time to adjust.

Would have been up first thing in the morning, get dressed in the car, get there, get in line, you know, try to hit everything. And then you'd be like done with Dollywood by like 2:00 or something like that. Here, we're not getting there till then.

We're taking our time, stopping wherever we want to stop, you know, whatever else we need to do. And it's that little bit of freedom where it's like we have, we have the Plans of what we want to do, which is great.

You know, we have that to fall back on. Like, we're not going in blind, but we're allowing ourselves to fall back into nothing.

We're allowing ourselves to, like, throw away the itinerary whenever we want or get around to it whenever we want instead of sticking to it as some sort of schedule, which I think is very important for a neurodivergent mind.

Because I know I never would be able to enjoy something if I had to get up first thing in the morning and immediately start getting ready and feel like I'm on a schedule to get to a theme park to have fun where it feels like fun is work at that point. Here I have time to adjust to myself to. I always need time actually before doing any kind of work to, like, take some time to just sort of feel out.

Otherwise, my brain honestly just does not work very well. And actually being able to do that on vacation was a cool experience.

Something I hadn't able to really do before, because usually I'm on vacation kind of in fight or flight mode because everything kind of feels like it's go, go, go, and my schedule is my schedule and my routine are upended. And I didn't feel that. It felt like my routine morphed into this instead of it being disrupted. And for that, I didn't have any sort of.

Didn't have any, like, stimuli problems. I didn't have any. The amount of permission that I gave myself is unlike anything I think I've. I've personally experienced. And it's one of my.

The best memories I've ever had is that. And I can't wait to do something like it again. And it really did feel like it was the first neurodivergent vacation I've ever been on.

And I think that's what I want people listening neurodivergent who struggle with that feeling of trying to do things that are quote, unquote normal or, you know, doing the normal vacation stuff. It is whatever you want it to be. I did not do what.

I probably had a completely different experience at Dollywood than literally anybody else who were going on rides or running around doing all kinds of stuff. I literally walked around and took funny photos of things. That is what my autistic brain wanted to do. And that's what I did. And that's a vacation.

So the freedom, right? Freedom is something that you gave yourself. And. And this is you. You brought about such a good contrast about the box and freedom.

You didn't put yourself in the box, consciously box of a typical vacation. And you gave permission for yourself to be yourself, to honor your feelings and go with what you enjoyed.

And this is what I've been trying to say because nobody who created that box of vacation.

Right.

And why do we even believe that this is what a vacation needs to be? This is how it needs to look. This is what we need to do to actually enjoy and make use of our money. It should be our money's worth to do X, Y and Z.

And this is an unsaid, unspoken rule that we all follow. Right. So who is going to judge you now for not following those rules?

They could be neurotypical people in your life who are going to point, you point out and say that, but that this is where our challenge is, is to actually honor ourselves and, and to be able to voice our truth and, and say this is what I do and what I enjoy versus following what the neurotypical people would have done with their time and money for vacation. Right. So, so we don't. It's not about anybody. Nobody is going to pull you or charge you or punish you for not doing those things. Right.

So it's about just giving ourselves permission to be okay with that and not punishing ourselves and saying, oh my God, I followed my heart and I did what I enjoyed and I didn't follow all those things because I don't care, I don't care for other people's opinion about what I did on my vacation. So you without knowingly have let go of expectations from other people. And I mean, that's my journey too.

We always are seeking for that approval, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And because we are a minority, the neurodivergent people, I think it's way more challenging for us to, to be ourselves. And yeah, so.

So you said no to the rules and did what you enjoyed and that's all matter in the end.

Yeah.

And not caring what other people may think about my version of fun, I think that's the big thing is when you're a neurodivergence, fun is whatever you want it to be. You know, whatever you find to be fun is okay.

I think I just realized how self conscious I was about a lot of that stuff and how what I find enjoyable would be weird to other people. Maybe not, not so much.

My friends who would probably do the same exact thing like, yeah, I kind of just want to walk around a store and look at stuff that is actually like a really fun day to me for some reason. I don't need to buy anything. That's just. I just want to look at different things. And that is probably like, totally like an ADHD brain.

Just like, ooh, stimuli, ooh, stimuli, ooh, stimuli. And that's. I'm done. That's why I like browsing Amazon but never actually buying anything.

I just like reading product descriptions of things while other people, you know, have to. Whenever they go to a carnival, you know, they have to, like, go on a roller coaster or go on a ride. Me, I just kind of like.

I like going to, like, the show things where you look at stuff and I'll play, like, a couple of games and that's about it. I don't. I don't really, but I still feel like I get the same level of excitement out of it as everybody else there. And there's no shame in that.

Where I feel like before I would have felt some sort of form of shame, like, I. I wasn't living life to its fullest or something. I. I was. I was living neurodivergent life to its fullest.

And I hope anybody's take away from this is that you can. You can make. You can make life what you want it to be. In those moments, you don't have to try to, like, bend to anything.

You don't have to bend to the perceived notion of fun with a gun to your head. Let's go have fun.

You know, you know, something like that where you're put into an uncomfortable position even if there's like, lots of people or you just. You don't get stimulated in. In the same way, or you are able to get stimulated more easily in a different way.

And what may seem like nothing to an allistic person is everything to a neurodivergent. And this line of, like, live in that. Have fun however you want to have fun.

I just want to add one. I think this is the mom in me that's speaking. My son is 20, telling him stuff.

Well, we have amazing conversations, and I hope he comes as a guest on the show one day. But the mom in me is saying, yeah, have fun. As long as you don't harm yourself or others, don't do anything that will destroy you or others.

That's all the mom in me speaking.

Nothing harmful.

Nothing harmful.

Only harmless fun. Please.

Harmless. Exactly.

No vandalizations. I will not stand for vandalizations.

Exactly. Other than that, if the idea of fun is just to do whatever you love to do to be yourself, enjoy.

Just stare out the window from your room, your hotel Room, whatever it is. Right. It's okay. It's completely okay. And I, I think we should do that. Not just vacation for everything, everything.

And actually align with people who get you. So go on vacation with the right kind of people and. Yeah, because especially with neurodivergent folks, our environments affect us.

And so it's really important to go with the right people. It can be neurotransmitters, typical people, but someone who honors your space and this mutual respect.

I speak that because my husband is, I think, very neurotypical. But we honor each other on vacation, our interests and we have a lot of shared interests, so we do a lot of that and then also try to honor.

Because there's always that negotiation. Me going to an art gallery, my husband absolutely hates that. So it is, it is George Church. So I respect that.

Now I don't drag him to the galleries when I want to go visit. Although, like, I can feel his presence outside the gallery and that, that's always bothering me. But, but that's the guilt. But that's okay.

But I, I now know not to drag him. The old me probably did.

And this is where I think we should all learn to respect and honor ourselves and each other and yeah, I think that's when we'll all be happy.

Yeah, just vibe. Whatever frequency you vibe at, you don't need to vibe at everybody else's frequency. And everyone doesn't need to vibe at everybody else's frequency.

In turn, everybody just can do their own thing and you know, a vacation for me is going to have coffee in a different place than where I would normally have coffee. It's just as simple as that sometimes. And that's okay.

I, you know, I, I don't need to go off and do the Norman Rockwell style vacation where it's mandatory fun, which isn't actually fun, but yeah. Anyway, so those are my thoughts for today. And that's what I was kind of struck by while I was gone.

Oh, there's a, there's a takeaway in there for everyone listening for what Chai and I just shared. So of course you can always find the podcast@sparklaunchpodcast.com we're on all your favorite podcast, Catchers.

There's Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, et cetera, et cetera. I am on Instagram at follows his ghost and Chaya is on instagram @the sparklaunch. And of course you can find Spark launch itself at SparkLaunch.

For this episode. I've been Mike.

I'm Chaya and this was a blast. Talking about nothing but it was everything.

Yeah, I like that. Nothing but everything. I kind of want that to be our new tagline. But we will see you next time.