Welcome to the Project EDWARD Podcast series for 2023. My role in the Safe system and we're now at episode eight. We're very pleased to welcome Lisa Townsend, Surrey's Police and Crime Commissioner, who leads on Roads policing for the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners. Darren Lindsey caught up with Lisa recently for a conversation all about her work and her role in the safe system.

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So, Lisa, it's fantastic to meet up with you again since that week of action, with project and with this summer and the benefit of the audience, the safety system adopts a holistic approach to road safety that really involves multiple elements safer roads, safer vehicle, safer speeds, and obviously safer road uses. Where do you see your role in the safe system as the police and crime commissioner for Surrey?

Unknown

Thanks, Darren. It's really lovely to be talking to you again and talking of this. It's so important. So as police and crime commissioner, I'm responsible for a number of things. And one, of course, is holding the Chief Constable to account. So my role is independent of operational policing and I can't influence and I don't influence operational policing, but I'm also the national lead for road safety for the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners.

Unknown

And I'm really, really pleased that we're sort of moving towards embedding safe system in Surrey. And I think you're absolutely right when you talk about it as a holistic system, because that's exactly what it is, and it's all of those different parts of what we play in it. And policing is, is one of the organisations that clearly has has a part to play.

Unknown

It's not the only one at all. And as police and crime commissioner, I think it's really important that I'm holding the force to account for that and also playing my own part in it. So safe system of C, really important, all those different components about keeping our roads safer. We're at the really early stages of implementation in Surrey, so we're at quite exciting early stage of it.

Unknown

So not much detail yet, but, but broadly, I think in Surrey police we're doing an awful lot of work about sort of keeping our residents safe. And of course, one of the things about Surrey is how many people travel through Surrey who aren't Surrey residents because we have that road network that really does link so many different parts of the country.

Unknown

So we've got teams like our Vanguard team, which has been funded by the precept, which is the council tax. And I as Police and Crime Commissioner rise, they're amazing. And of course we've got the roads policing in it. So there's absolutely, you know, really, really fantastic some fantastic work going on from both of those teams. Now, you just touched upon there the roads passing through Surrey.

Unknown

Not everyone is from. Sorry. Can you just give us some more specific routes related happenings in Surrey when it comes to the challenges you face? Yeah, and we do. And it was a really this was a really big part of me want to actually take on the national brief around road safety. And so we've got about 1.2 million residents in Surrey, which, you know, sorry is a really interesting county geographically quite small and but, but in terms of road safety, we do, as you say, have a number of unique challenges.

Unknown

So we've got one of the busiest and most dangerous stretches of highway in Europe, which is the M25, which of course feeds into a number of major routes, including the M3, the A3, the M23. You know, it connects London to the south. It's the gateway to the continent. If you think about it in terms of all ferry ports in Dover, in New Haven and Portsmouth.

Unknown

So, you know, we've got all of that through traffic that's coming. And we also very closely border two major airports, Heathrow and Gatwick. And so our motor work that way is carrying an enormous number of vehicles on a daily basis, one of the busiest places for that in Europe. And it's congested at the best of times. Quite frankly, anybody who's driven on the M25 or anywhere through Surrey will be sadly aware of that, which means that when we do have an incident on those routes, it can have a massive, massive impact and a knock on impact on surrounding routes and the ability for drivers therefore to safely navigate their journeys as well.

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well as 397. So nearly 398 cyclists are injured, 97 motorcycles and a 400 and so 800 nearly cyclists and motorcyclists killed. And that was during COVID. So, you know, our main issue is still is relating to speed. So in that same timeframe, there were nearly 650 collisions resulting in a fatality or a serious injury. That's 32% of the total caused by speeding and then a further 10% caused by drink or drunk driving.

Unknown

So, you know, we do a lot of campaigns around it. It's really important. And we do have to try and reach as many people as we can, given that right now work on the number of people who are coming through. So yeah, I think as Surrey, we do face some really quite specific challenges and then you add into that, you know, those vulnerable road users, including cyclists.

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And that's about targeted enforcement very specifically in relation to the fatal five and removing that sort of high risk, high harm offenders from Surrey in the first place. And I think that's they've had enormous success. And so and there'll be a big piece of that has got to be around education, of course, which it is. And then there's the there's the enforcement side as well, which is really, really important.

Unknown

So enforcement cameras and sunny schemes around multi-zone average speed camera areas, which we've done some per bike brand bends, which is really important, particularly with particular collision problems there, especially with motorcyclists, that's been been really good spot speed camera on the 81 seven replacement of remaining sort of wet film has been really important as well. Some digital combined speeds and red light cameras as well in certain places in Guildford and in Woking.

Unknown

So yeah, an awful lot of work has gone into it as well as sort of further education as well around people understanding it. And you know that the proof will be in the pudding, right? It'll be in. Can we bring down those numbers of people who are seriously or fatally injured at least? I just want to go back to something you said at the start, that you wear two hats at the moment.

Unknown

Obviously, you're the police and crime commissioner in Surrey. Be also lead on road safety at a national level. Association of Police and Crime Commissioner, what examples of good practice have you seen elsewhere and have you recreated any of them in Surrey? Yeah, we actually have. So I'm actually the Vanguard Road Safety team are, I think, a prime example of this.

Unknown

So so what we learned from looking at other forces was that some forces were doing this really, really well. So in addition to that, their normal road policing teams, we have an excellent roads policing unit in Surrey. Really, really great work and they will be well known to a lot of our dangerous drivers. But in addition to that, other forces were looking at having very specific teams focused on sort of the fatal five, and one of them was up Dragoon in Northumbria Police.

Unknown

And so absolutely not about stealing good ideas. I think it's really, really important in policing that we look at where forces are doing it really well and try to replicate where we can. So so that was a really good example for us actually of being able to take something that was being done elsewhere in the country and clearly quite far away from Surrey but was really working for them.

Unknown

And that's why the Vanguard team, it came out of that that work that Northumbria were doing it. And so yeah, we took that also sort of in conjunction with the what with the sort of Surrey specific concerns and used the precept in order to be able to fund that team. And it's got two sergeants and ten, ten PCs on that team and they are really targeting, you know, the most dangerous drivers that are on I'm sorry right now.

Unknown

I'm also aware that Surrey is also a leader in certain initiatives. One in particular is community speed Watch. How important is this as a safety initiative for you? I think community Speed watch has got a really important role to play actually in that overall peace around keeping our residents safe, keeping our road users by phone rather safe.

Unknown

And it's a really it's a really great way, actually, the community getting involved as well. You know, when I go around the county speaking to residents groups, I love hearing from people who are part of community speed watch. They're always really proud of it, which I think is absolutely fantastic. You know, they want to tell you they are part of community speed watch and and the work that they've been doing and they're you know, they're all volunteers and they just they do an absolutely fantastic job.

Unknown

So if you are and if you are caught by it in Surrey, you'll get a warning letter. If you get three of them, you then get a visit from a police officer. So, you know, there's a definite sort of escalation process. So those volunteers are playing such an important part in that process. It doesn't replace police officers. I think that's a really, really important thing to say and for people to understand.

Unknown

And certainly those those community speed watch officers and volunteers are really conscious of that as well, because it absolutely doesn't replace policing and nor should it, and places in the county which do have particular problems or safety concerns and hotspots. I would always expect that our police teams are targeting those and have proactive measures around it. And I often borrow one of our road policing unit mantras, which is we can't be everywhere, but we could be anywhere and I think that Community Speed Watch is a really, really good example of that actually, on a really as a really, really important role to play in terms of that that visibility, that visibility, but also being in

Unknown

some places, the eyes and ears for for our police force. Now, looking ahead, a little transport solutions are constantly changing. What emerging threats are concern in you and what can you do about it. So one of the ones that's really bothering me is around drug driving. Actually. You know, we've been talking for four years, quite rightly, and continue to talk about drink driving.

Unknown

And they are two things that really, really worry me. I am worried about. And I mean, I, I remember growing up in the in the nineties, you know, at school, secondary school in the nineties, and there were an awful lot of campaigns, particularly at Christmas time and we still get them around drink driving and I remember feeling very, very strongly there was no way on earth I would get in a car with a friend who had been drinking.

Unknown

My, my brother, who's five years younger than me, had had a horrible experience with hazy air, great had a horrible experience at school. Four of their classmates died because one of them had been drinking. And, you know, so it was something that was that felt very, very close to home for us in that sense. And I am worried that that we've lost some of that and that we are seeing, in some cases, young people getting into a car after drink driving and then there's the drunk driving.

Unknown

And I think that that's something that's a really, really worrying trend. We have more drunk driving than drink driving in Surrey, which really, really concerns me. And I think it's a particularly challenging area actually in policing. And, you know, for a number of reasons. I mean, one of the challenges is the fact that it is not considered as socially unacceptable as drink driving is.

Unknown

And I think that's a real challenge for us and is and one of the practical problems and the problem specifically for policing is the really limited capability that we have to test the roadside. And there's a really lengthy process from that that arrest to the eventual disqualification and getting that person off the road and getting their license from them.

Unknown

And that's because of the requirement for the lab to examine specimens, which is not a problem that we have with drink driving and alcohol tests. So we kind of take a Surrey Place, a number of steps to try and address this, including, you know, a much wider publicity campaign. And, you know, with the comms team, why do education internally as well?

Unknown

So the officers who are out on the road to know what to look for, they know what the signs are, they know the conversations to have and those signals around somebody who might be drug driving. And we're having dedicated days of action very specifically on the issue as well. So we are doing things and they're all there are things that we can take and we will, of course, be taking part in operation limits, which of course takes place for the whole of December, which is around it's drug and drink driving.

Unknown

And I am I make sure that I get out every December with our roads officers as well to see what they're doing on the ground and stopping drivers, having those really important educational conversations as well, because I think it's it's really important. But I do believe that officers and this is something I'll be speaking to the new transport Minister about.

Unknown

I do believe that officers should be able to apply a roadside disqualification for certain drug drive cases. I think it would make a really, really big difference. And, you know, in Surrey alone, we've got one particular individual has been arrested for multiple drug driving matters. He is clearly not somebody who should be on our roads, but officers of such limited options in terms of in terms of what they can do in order to get them off the roads and protect the public.

Unknown

Because of this, the way the blood has to be analysed and go through and go through the lab before we can get them to court. So, you know, it's a real challenge. It's something I really, really worry about. It's actually in line with national trends and what we're seeing as well and that some of those. Right. So yeah, it's a it's a real it is a real challenge for us.

Unknown

But yeah, and again, it's a great place where we can start, where we can work together nationally and try and find a solution to this. I would just like to bring another thread that's certainly raising its head at the moment and that is distractions. And I'm not just talking distractions inside the vehicles, I'm talking distractions with pedestrians with heads down zombified in their phones.

Unknown

I used to in that in Surrey. And what is it you're trying to do about it? We do. We see an awful lot of it. You're absolutely right. You see people, don't you? Pedestrians walking on the streets and you know, they've got the headphones in, they've got their head down, they're looking at their mobile and, you know, they see a green light, they walk across, but they're not actually checking to see what the traffic is doing around them or whether a cyclist is is approaching them.

Unknown

And then, of course, yeah, there are all the distractions in card is the using the mobile phone there's even just that you know that brief glimpse as a you know you're not reading the text message but you've looked at your phone which might be on the seat next to you. And you know, it does some really good education around the importance of, you know, take your mobile phone, turn it off, put it in your glove box so you can't ever say it.

Unknown

You can't hear it. But we know, it is I think a real challenge. And there's some great work as well going on around that in terms of, you know, police vehicles, unmarked vehicles of various kinds don't to give away too many of our secrets and who are on the roads, on the motorways. You are right as a police officer in them, you will not know that we are looking very closely through your windows and looking at sort of what you're doing.

Unknown

But it's a it's a real challenge for us that generally that people being sort of like you say, zombified, Darren, looking at their phones and and not paying attention to that wider peace around them, which we know is so important, whether you're a pedestrian, whether you're a driver, whether you're a passenger in a car, it's all really matters.

Unknown

Now, finally, let's touch on partnerships, not project, which were all about development, sustainable partnerships, what value do they bring and how do you find the right partners when it comes to road safety and road policing in general? Partnerships are everything, I think when it comes to road safety, partly because it's an area that is responsibility of all of us.

Unknown

You know, I often say as I'm talking to young people as well, if you are a passenger in a car, that road safety is is you know, it's part of your responsibility as well. You know, don't get into a car with somebody who's been drinking and all of that and that of course, extends to those official those organisations where we have a real role to play in policing, as I have already talked about since Surrey County Council and our Highways team in the work that they do, I mean, the safe system approach and the Vision Zero couldn't be achieved without partnerships.

Unknown

And I think, as I've said, policing clearly has a very important role to play around specifically enforcement and all of that as well. But, you know, that education piece is really important. We have to bring partners in order to work with us on it. We are absolutely reliant on good partnerships in order to achieve safer rise. We will not achieve safer roads without them.

Unknown

I mean, I've talked a bit about sort of some of the best examples, you know, Vanguard being a really, really important one that and the expertise of other forces. So it's not just partnerships, other organisations, it's partnerships with other forces as well. So so those internal partnerships within policing and prevention far greater than cure, Right? That's what we want.

Unknown

We want to see prevention. And so funding things like Safe Drive, stay alive, you do amazing work before you drive or even get say in for they didn't pass that test is really important. And of course project Edward you know which is an enormously important partnership for me and my team being able to work with you because we're all trying to achieve the same thing.

Unknown

And it's, it's just, it's absolutely vital. It's also one of the things that makes the job of PCC really exciting, you know, having that capability to to work with other partners, to bring groups together is is just, you know, is so important and that that that event that I joined you at, you know an escort and Brooklyn colleges you know that we've done and bringing those parts going to bring organisations like Kwik Fit together right And talking about the work that they're doing I think is enormously important.

Unknown

And it's a real privilege for somebody like me who's sort of really interested and curious and actually quite nosy about what other people do and how they do it to be able to work with with all of these exciting people and yourselves, to be able to do something that we all so passionately believe in. Laser light Blast. Fantastic.

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The technical director was Peter Baker.