Many of us were exposed to guasha in our schooling, but it was more like a footnote than anything else. Over in Asia guasha is a well-used aspect of the folk medicine. Hardly a grandma or auntie that doesn’t know how to raise a rash with a soup spoon. But most docs over there don’t use it. So it is understandable how in teaching “medicine” here in the west we’d get the minimal exposure we do.

In this episode we sit down with the “Guasha Queens” and learn why this simple technique should be part of your pain relief toolkit. Additionally we learn how it can be helpful for a variety of internal health conditions such as digestion, various inflammatory conditions, respiratory illness and even psycho-emotive issues.

This is an aspect of our medicine that we really should own and use, as it’s simple, safe and effective. Listen in as we discuss how to raise a rash and make your patients love you.

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold itself

separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our medicine

did not grow out of Petri dish, experimentation, or double blind studies.

It arose from observing.

And our part in it east Asian medicine evolves not from the examination

of dead structures, but rather from living systems with their complex

mutually entangled interactions.

Welcome to chia logical.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues,

pertinent to practitioners and students.

Of east Asian medicine, dialogue and discussion have always been elemental to

Chinese and other east Asian medicines.

Listen into these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic.

Hello everyone.

Welcome back to qiological today.

My guests are Sandy camper and Catherine new Moraski.

These are the two guash hot Queens of our.

And most of us have had a little experience and a little exposure with

squash awe when we were in school.

But you know, it seems, at least in my education, it was more like a footnote

than anything else I did notice over in Asia, that GWAS Shaw was quite well used.

Most every auntie or grandma knew how to do.

And often you'd see people with Shaw running around and China and Taiwan, both,

but most doctors over there didn't do it.

So maybe that's why the teaching over here.

It didn't get so included with the medicine.

I don't know, but I do know this Sandy and Catherine knew a lot about guash

Shaw and they've got some amazing stories to tell and some things

that you're going to be able to use right now to help your patients.

So we're going to get into it.

We're going to learn how to raise a rash with.

Sandra and Katherine, welcome to qiological.

Thanks for having us.

I'm really looking forward to this.

So let's, let's start with Sandy.

Uh, you're the first person, you know, we took a class together a while

back and you mentioned GWAS, Sean.

I was like, guash I really?

And, uh, that's what's brought us together here.

What was your.

Exposure to this.

Was this something you learned in school?

How did you find your way into being one of the Queens?

Well, I didn't have any exposure or training to Gwoza when I was in school.

And so it was many years before a friend or one of my classmates came to visit

and told me that he was, he was doing Gwoza and he thought it was great.

So he.

Performed Gwoza on me.

So I could experience what that was like.

And then he did GWAS on my husband so I could watch him and see how he did it.

And I experienced pretty immediately.

Wonderful sense of patience.

And I had young children at the time, so that was a very welcome experience.

And then I started doing GWAS on my patients to good effect.

I saw that Dr.

Aria Neilson was doing a class in Gwoza at what was the new

England school of acupuncture.

And I took her class, which was terrific.

And I discovered a lot more about philoso.

I found out that I was probably doing incomplete treatments on my patients.

And so in my practice, I started doing gloss on everybody.

I could get my hands on and I had amazing results.

Uh, Catherine and I speak frequently over instant messenger about our practices.

And we found that we were commenting frequently about.

How amazing our results were about Gwoza.

And, uh, about that time, one of the people that I, about the time I

trained with mentioned on a list or an alumni listserv that she didn't

do GWAS on her practice at all.

And I thought, oh, this is, this is not good.

We should be doing this in our practices because we're getting,

we're getting such great results.

So we decided that we should teach a class.

And Catherine decided, uh, she mentioned that.

It should be called the magic of GWAS.

Cause it seems like the results are so incredible.

Catherine, how did you get involved with us?

Was it, was it because of Sandy or was there some other way that

you found your way to doing these.

So, um, I went to a TCM school and we did go over guash Shaw, but,

uh, it was, it was maybe an hour out of a much bigger class that

covered a lot of different material.

And it really didn't make much of an impression on me at all.

It wasn't particularly emphasized by the teacher.

So when I started my practice, I really wasn't using gratia at all.

And, um, at the time, I think it was my second year of practice

or my third year of practice.

I was experiencing hip pain, pretty extreme hip pain.

And I, I can't remember what it was exactly that triggered me.

It might've been an online discussion or somebody had just

mentioned Quasha or something.

And I thought, oh, I'll, I'll try that on my hip.

You know, I wasn't really expecting.

And well, the, the hip wa you know, became totally purple and the pain,

which had been significant was gone.

I mean, like completely gone with one session.

So I thought to myself, oh my God, why am I not doing this on my patients?

This is crazy.

And, and then I started using it regularly and it changed my whole practice.

Like you, Catherine.

I also.

Got it in school, but it really seemed like it was more of a

footnote than anything else.

It was it, you know, and it was almost like it was being taught as an artifact.

Well, this is a part of Chinese medicine.

You need to learn how to do it.

And we did it, but it's like no one experienced anything.

I don't think from, I mean, when you get anything out of it, other

than, yeah, here's this thing you do and it's supposed to be helpful,

but it's like nothing happened.

And I mean, it's curious to me, it seems like this is being taught all

over the place, but no, one's having these experiences like, oh my God,

my hip pain is gone or, I mean, it sounds like you guys use it all over

the place with tremendous results.

Sandy was telling us earlier, she got GWAS sod and it had this spirit calming effect.

Right.

And the other thing, Sandy, that you mentioned, you said one of the

things that you found out in doing this is that you had been doing

incomplete croissant treatments.

Could you go a little bit into that because maybe that's what's happening

is when we're being taught in school, it's actually an incomplete lesson.

So we don't get all the way from a through Z, so to speak and get to the

amazing thing that happens at the end.

So can you clue us in a little bit as to what.

Complete treatment looks like.

And what are the signs of an incomplete treatment?

Well, one of the things I noticed was that, uh, oftentimes people are just

doing the area between the spine and the shoulder blades, and there's so much

more of the body to be done with WASA.

That will yield amazing results and will help in so many different ways.

So many different kinds of conditions.

I think also the kinds of conditions that we think of it to use Gwoza are

more limited than they should be.

I think there's so many more conditions that will be positively affected by GLA.

Can you give us an example of some of the conditions that may not immediately come

to mind, but you guys see and treat all.

Well, I should first mention the things that most people associate with

it, which is pain and inflammation.

Those kinds of conditions.

When your patient has any kind of pain or inflammation, GWAS is useful.

And many of us know about using it when they're.

Fevers or, you know, an invasion of some kind like that wind cold when

he, but there were so many other con other kinds of conditions auto-immune

issues, whenever there's any signs of blood stagnation, digestive

problems, there's so many conditions.

And, and also the emotional that we mentioned, you know, anxiety, those

kinds of things respond to GWAS as well.

Absolutely.

I had a patient who she had been coming in for some time for an

unrelated condition, but she came in one day with lingering bronchitis.

She had, she was, you know, had been taking antibiotics and the

bronchitis just wouldn't let go.

And she came into the office, coughing and coughing.

So I had her lie down face down on the table and I guash shot

over her lungs in the back.

And you could really see the outline of the lungs in Shaw.

It was pretty amazing.

And as the shock came up, the coughing subsided and by the, by the time I was

done, but she had stopped coughing.

I texted her the next day and she said her lungs were totally clear.

There's amazing results like that.

I had someone with COPT who is wheezing so profoundly that she couldn't speak to me.

And so I just started out doing Glosser.

Immediately the wheezing calmed down and she was able to talk to me.

So it's, the results are so impressive and so fast.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's a great point, Sandy, you know, so much of Chinese

medicine is a slow medicine.

And because, you know, we are inculturated to a, to getting faster results.

At least with things like pain, you know, you take a pill and you,

you know, the headache goes away.

And so much of Chinese medicine is slower.

With guash all.

We can get very fast results.

We can send somebody out the door feeling immediately better, and that's going to

generate a lot of Goodwill for when we're asking them to go along for the longer

journey of treating chronic issues that do that are more time consuming to treat.

When I lived in Asia.

They would often be this phrase about if you need something taken care of

quickly, you use Western medicine.

And if there's something chronic, you use Chinese medicine, which,

which we know is not correct.

Right.

But it, you know, different cultures get these ideas about what's right.

Or, you know, what you're supposed to do, because we know

that even with acupuncture, you can get some very fast results.

And with herbs, you can get some very fast results if you've got

something dialed in, but just quash.

Sounds like you can get some very quick results to some troubling,

really dialed in physical conditions.

Absolutely.

So give us a little glimpse here of you and your clinic.

Do you do acupuncture first?

You do.

Do you do Quasha first?

How do you figure out when to use what's Sandy?

Do you want to go ahead?

Sure.

I'll take that.

Um, Th, you know, I initially talked to the patient for a few minutes and

if they mentioned anything with pain, uh, or any of the things that we've

already talked about that make me think LASA, and I want to do gloss on them.

I'll do that first, typically.

And then after I do the gloss out, then I'll do needles, uh, maybe about what,

you know, I did the glass out for, but also it could be for other things

like maybe an underlying imbalance and underlying constitutional issue.

But I don't think that's necessarily a hard and fast rule.

You can do WASA after you do acupuncture, you can do a little

acupuncture, do Gwoza and then do something else with acupuncture.

If you have the time, I think people can design treatments, you know, as

we all do with our own ideas about it, you tend to go with it first.

Yes, I do tend to go with LASA first and then.

It must be impressive to your patients to walk in with pain and within, I

don't know, how long does it take you to do GWAS Shaw five or seven?

Right.

Depending on how much you want to do.

And, you know, people get more efficient at it as they learn it.

So you can do more of the, you know, more areas of the body in a shorter amount of

time as you get more comfortable with it.

But, you know, having somebody say, and I think this was one of Catherine's patients

who was having trouble with her neck.

Catherine, do you want to tell that story about the parking?

Oh, right.

Yeah.

I love this.

So this was a long time patient of mine, uh, who had again, been

coming for something unrelated.

And she, we were chit chatting one day, as you do with your patients

when you're putting needles in.

And she mentioned to me that she never parks anywhere where she has to back

out because she can't turn her head.

And I said, oh no.

Why didn't you tell me this a year ago?

And I go wash out and I go wash on her neck and she said, and I I'm quoting her.

Oh my God, I can park anywhere now.

That's great.

Well, I, you know, I have to admit here for you listeners.

This is not the first time that I've spoken with Sandra and Catherine.

We did a show a week ago, but we had a little bit of a technical malware.

And so I wasn't able to bring that one to you.

So I got tipped off to saw a couple of weeks ago at this point because of

the conversation that we earlier had.

And the day after our last conversation, I had this guy come in with the.

Stiff neck, very stiff neck.

And he's this like super weightlifter.

I mean, this guy has got a neck bigger than most people's thighs.

Right.

And I'm thinking to myself, oh, let's, let's try this stuff out.

Right.

So I pull out my jelly jar lid, and, but first I do a little bit

of range of motion with this guy and he is, he's got restriction.

At least 50% in all directions and like turning to the left,

he had like 30% of the range of motion that he should have had.

So I go to work on him and I'm telling you, the room is heating up because of

the heat that's coming off of this dude.

Right now it's red.

It's purple.

And it's just, I mean, it's like he is generating a few.

From the grass, huh?

Wow.

Do that for about maybe 10 minutes, right?

To each side, check the range of motion, which basically was normal.

Wow.

After that amount of time, I mean, it was norm it's like, I'd say, turn

your head to the left and he'd like, turn it all the way to the left.

Yep.

This is why we call the class.

The magic of Quasha.

It was really stunning.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, that's great.

And that person will love you from here to eternity.

And we'll talk about the amazing resolved.

Exactly.

So you find this as good for your business.

You have people that are referring other people for.

Oh, yeah.

I, um, I had one guy who had, he was the husband of a patient who

had just come in because his back went out and he really didn't have

any, any major health problems, but his back went out and it was bad.

I mean, the guy he came in practically in tears, he could

barely move and squash out his back.

He felt, I mean, it was like a 90% improvement in the first treatment and

he had his wife take pictures and he posted them up on Facebook with my contact

information and the, and the, yeah, I got, I definitely got patients out of it.

So I want to dig a little bit into what's going on here.

So physiological.

Can you guys, I mean, I get it that removing some blood, removing

some cheap, but what else is going on here physiologically?

Is there any Western points of view that you can bring to this

or other, you know, go deeper into the Chinese medicine point of view?

What's happening here with this very simple stroking that brings

this redness up to the surfaces.

Well, there, there are a lot of interesting studies.

I used to be a scientist before I was an acupuncture.

So I kind of geek out on the studies.

I like to read about that.

The studies show that there's a, your body's natural antiinflammatories are

brought out and that's a systemic thing.

So.

That's why the GWAS can help areas beyond where you are

actually performing the gloss off.

It can.

That's why it can help digestive problems.

It can help, uh, other areas of the body where there's pain and

inflammation, because the what gets released is, is released systemically.

There's also an increase in blood circulation, uh, that

continues for some time after you complete the Gwoza treatment.

And one of the things also that I find, so.

Fascinating is in school.

You know, we, we talked about policy and tongue changes.

The tongue changes.

The lore was that it took a little longer for tongue to, you know, the,

the qualities on the tongue to change.

And what I found with WASA is if you look at the tongue before you do the

glass, and then you look afterwards, oftentimes you see changes immediately.

Like less redness if there's heat, because like you said, with your

patient, with the neck, you know, he was releasing all this heat that was

trapped and you can see a change in the coat for those, with blood deficiency,

you can see, um, the tongue pink up.

So there's all these changes that are immediate like that, that you

can see that I find just thrilling.

Wow.

Systemic anti-inflammatory response.

That's.

That's huge.

It really is.

It's, you know, the, the research is so interesting.

There's been studies that GWAS performed on my, on my, on a mouse

and, you know, you get these scans and you get to see where in the body.

These, uh, antiinflammatories are lighting up and it's it's throughout

the body and other places besides.

The back where you're doing the glasses.

So it's all throughout the body.

It's thrilling.

You also mentioned that it's helpful for digestive issues.

Where would you do the GWAS saw for a digestive thing?

Is it, is it always done in the back or would you do the belly or could you

actually go and like GWAS saw stomach 36?

Well, yeah.

I mean, you could, you could certainly try all of those things.

I have found very effective.

Two for treating acid reflux to guash on the mid part of

the back around the diaphragm.

Um, I find that really all the time when somebody complains of the, the reflux,

that there is going to be a lot of shock coming up in that mid back area.

And then patients report to me after the treatment that they

really experienced a lot of.

Also, I've treated people with liver issues, hepatitis cirrhosis, even of

the liver and all through the mid back area, you get so much sock coming up.

I know with.

You'll get different kinds of marks.

You'll have different colors.

The marking is often indicative, not just of a stagnation, but what kind

of stagnation is a blood stagnation?

Is there cheat efficiencies or fluid and dampness, that kind of thing.

Do you find that there's different kinds of shots that will show up and

that Shaw is also diagnostic in terms of what's happening for a patient,

what their underlying condition.

You can see different types of saw that coming up with

different types of conditions.

So it can be very red when there's heat.

It can be more purple when there's more stagnation, more blood status.

It can be more pale when there's deficiency like a blood deficiency and

cold, even it can be more of a human.

Towards the Baloo.

So there's definitely diagnostic kinds of saw.

And also the, the more you repeat Gwoza on patients, you should see it

diminishing, unless there's some way that it's getting re-introduced to the person.

Although there are the caveat, is there are some people that seem to always have

an enormous amount of sock coming up.

Right?

This is true.

And yeah, I recently had a patient who, a young woman and

her pulses are so different.

Like, I mean almost unbelievably deficient and I've done guash

on her the last few times.

And the shy was not indicative of deficiency.

It was very, very dark, very purple.

A lot of it coming up.

So.

Uh, it just made me think about w you know, maybe there are other reasons why

the pulse is deficient or it kind of, you know, presented a more complex picture

of what's going on with her, which I haven't completely figured out yet, but

it is a very helpful diagnostic tool.

Yeah.

You know, it's sometimes like that, we'll see a picture with our patient

where things don't quite match up.

Right.

They seem really deficient.

And then you look in another place and you go, wow, there's all this stagnation.

And yeah, it's, it's not always so textbook that everything lines

up, but definitely then it sounds like it's not just something that's

helpful for treatment, but this is, this is useful diagnostically.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

What do you guys use to wash out with when I was in acupuncture school,

I think we use soup spoons and.

And I've seen, especially over in Asia.

I mean, you'll see street vendors selling these really nice carved Buffalo

horns and, you know, different all kinds of different scraping devices.

Right?

What do you guys use in your clinic?

Well, we use very fancy high tech tools.

They're known as jar lid.

We both really have found that the jar lids are more effective

than any of the other tools.

And then there's the added benefit of them being easy to clean and disinfect,

which is very, very important.

I mean, The, um, you know, the spoons or the spoons are fine.

You can clean and disinfect those, the horn instruments, even though they are

beautiful, we recommend that people just have those for show and really use a

more pragmatic tool for doing the actual guash Shaw because, um, you know, it's

important, not just for effectiveness, but for, for hygiene as well.

Yeah.

So you definitely don't want to be transmitting anything from one patient

to another because something's gotten into a little crack in your tool.

So being able to disinfect fully is very important.

You would really want a surface that's completely non porous, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

You gave us a little more.

I mean, how do you disinfect your tools?

What do you do?

Yeah, so, so these kinds of tools that don't penetrate the

skin are known as non-critical.

Objects or non-critical items.

And by CDC recommendations, we use a mid-level disinfectant.

Something like Barbicide would be an example of that.

And, you know, first you will, we'll wash the tools with hot water and soap, and

that's going to get off any of the oils or lubricants that we're using with the

And then we'll disinfect according to the directions of whatever mid-level

disinfectant you're, you're using.

It's really important to do this because again, even though the tools aren't

penetrating the skin, there is more than a good chance that you're going to pick

up some kind of blood or bodily fluid.

I mean, you may go over.

You may go over some, you know, acne that's on the skin and it may be very,

very subtle, but you're going over that and it's opening and there's,

you know, possibly pus coming out or blood and, and often it's such

a small amount that you can't see.

And it's just, it's very, very important that we not be transmitting this stuff

from one patient to the next yeah.

We're, you know, you're using Charlotte's right.

Okay.

Well, I was just wondering, you could probably just buy jar lids and

use them as single use disposable.

You could, you could do that.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

That would be another way to go, right.

That would be just, you know, practitioner preference.

I mean, I'm, I reuse my jar lids after disinfecting, but there's gonna

come a time where, um, I'm going to discard them and get new ones anyway.

I mean, they're not going to be good forever.

Uh, you know, eventually from even the aluminum, Charlotte, I

guess it's aluminum that they use.

It does start to corrode after a certain number of washings.

So you definitely want to replace them.

You want to have tools that have absolute integrity.

Right?

What about stone?

I've I've seen them made out of Jade and other kinds of stone.

Have you tried using the stone tool?

I really haven't have you Sandy?

No, I haven't used them.

I've I've seen people talk about using them in facial gloss, but I

haven't used them and I just would be aware of porosity and making sure

that you have something that's going to be able to be completely cleaned.

Okay.

You mentioned facial gloss.

Is that something that the two of you.

I, I personally don't do much of that.

Um, we had a student in one of our classes who used it for a facial rejuvenation

and she actually did a demo for us.

So, you know, it's definitely a thing.

I mean, I, I really haven't had thus far.

I haven't had any conditions that I thought, uh, cold for it.

I have done guash out into the scalp with very good effect for

headaches and things like that.

And are you going after the gallbladder channel or what, where do you decide

to go with the head for these?

Yeah, generally I'll start around gallbladder 20 and then

make my way up the gallbladder.

Yeah, again, I want to come back.

I got a little note here with a circle around it, something Sandy

said about incomplete treatments.

So how do we know when a treatment is complete?

Well, when I was talking about that, I.

I was aware that, uh, when I was taught by my classmates, it was just

a very limited part of the body.

And what we teach in our class is much broader than that.

And we have a whole day class where we talk about.

And we demonstrate and, and the students in the class will perform gloss on

each other so that they both get to experience what it feels like to

have a GWAS treatment, which is an, I think an essential part of the class.

Because when you feel how good you feel after you get a glass of

treatment, I think that makes it.

More fun to do in your practice because you have an antibody to experience of

what it feels like to have Gwoza and they also performed gloss on their partner.

So, and under our supervision so that they were sure that they're holding

the tool correctly, that they're, that they're doing all parts of the body of,

you know, that they should be going over.

We found sometimes in class that people.

Students can be a little nervous when the soft starts to come up, because it looks

sometimes very dramatic and people can be concerned that they're hurting the person.

So, uh, that's an important feeling to get over.

I get a little gleeful when I see the thought coming up, because I

know how good the person's gonna be.

Yeah, absolutely.

Gleeful is exactly the right word.

Absolutely.

And I, you know, I'll, I'll add to what Sandy said, um, by saying

that we have certainly both had treatments without very good habit.

Have, sorry.

We both have had treatments done to us where the technique wasn't very good.

Really, there really is a big difference between good technique and bad technique.

And so this is something that we, that we're, you know, we spend a

lot of time during the class on so that people can walk out of the

class and go into their clinic the next day and feel confident that.

Going to give a good treatment.

Yeah.

Some, some of the comments, for example, uh, people who've had, who've been

in students in the class and have had GWAS performed on them, will often say

that it was very effective, but it was very painful or, uh, I've experienced

Gwoza where the next day in the shower.

Painful.

And I would say that neither of those things has to be the case that you can

perform Gwoza on someone Mo well, there are some people who are very sensitive,

but most of the time, uh, get really good effect without the person feeling like,

you know, they're gritting their teeth.

You know, I mentioned that because of our previous conversation, I've been doing

more croissant in my clinic and my wife is Chinese and she's done GWAS soft for me.

And she does it.

Uh, a fairly aggressive fashion as, as is often the technique from Chinese.

So sometimes I'm really timid around GWAS sock, because it's not always the most

pleasant experience, even if it does.

So when I'm in clinic, I tend to be a little timid.

I tend to be, well, I don't know if timid is the right word.

I'm cautious when I'm doing the GWAS on my patients, because I don't want them to

experience a lot of discomfort and every now and then I'll, I'll, I'll be scraping

along and I can feel the tissue underneath and it's like corrugated, right?

It's like scraping on corrugated, cardboard.

Right.

Which freaks me out a little bit.

It's like, oh my God, you know, is this, is this painful for the patients?

So I will check in with them and you know, how are you doing?

How does this feel?

What's this like for you?

Right.

And pretty much all of the time they go, that feels so good.

Right now I'm sitting there, dude, I'm sitting there scraping over this

corrugated cardboard of their fascia and thinking they think this feels.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Well, you know, we'll continue and see what happens.

So I suspect checking in with your patients is a really helpful thing to do.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, you have to check in with them because you have no way of knowing what

they're feeling, unless they tell you.

And sometimes patients feel like they have to just sit there and bear something.

That's not really bearable.

So I always remind patients just to continually give me feedback.

And some people are, you know, Can withstand more than others.

And we're with people who are very sensitive and there's a lot of

stagnation I'll have, I'll use a lighter pressure and, um, we'll do

it slowly and it might take more treatments to get all the Shaw out.

But, you know, generally people are very patient about that.

They, you know, they'd rather it, we, you know, do what they can,

what they can take each session and then eventually we will get it all.

Right.

And they're experiencing benefits all along the way typically.

Right?

So it is you're right.

It's very important to get elicit feedback from your patients

about what they're feeling.

And often, like you said, Michael people will say, oh, it feels so good.

Most of the time I find that to be true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are your thoughts about, I mean, when I was saying that you,

you know, you scrape, you gets us feeling like you're scraping.

Cardboard like corrugated cardboard.

What's your sense of what's happening with the tissues in that area?

And is this something eventually that will smooth out?

Yeah, I mean, not only are we breaking up the blood stagnation in

the capillaries with , but you were also breaking up fascial adhesions.

So I, I do expect that tissue under the skin to smooth out over time over,

you know, multiple treatments there is.

Uh, thing, a technique out there.

Um, I think the physical therapists do it.

I think it's named after someone has called the Graston

technique and you're laughing.

So it's, it's, it's kind of interesting because they've got these tools, they've

got these very special, high-tech beautiful tools that cost like $2,000, I

think, or more for like a set of tools.

It's like thousands of dollars, right?

Yeah.

And then you look at what they're doing.

And you look at what's the skin looks like after they've done their

treatment, it looks a lot like, wow.

It is glass.

So it's squash and

I like to call it chutzpah.

Um, yeah.

So, and you know, it's funny.

I, I just did gratia on Friday on a woman who she's the mother of one of my patients

and she was having a lot of neck pain.

Her husband is a chiropractor.

So she had mentioned actually, or I'm not sure.

Maybe I mentioned at first the Graston and she said, oh yeah.

Oh yeah, I've heard about that.

She says, but you know, he's done that on me, but it doesn't usually it

doesn't get rid, like, he'll just say.

Uh, enough just to, well, I don't know enough to work, but he'll just scrape,

but it doesn't bring up the red.

So it seems like an incomplete treatment as well.

I think our profession has really made a mistake by not owning this

technique the way it should, because it, we get such incredible results.

Chinese medicine explains what is going on with the patient, why it's

helpful, why it's beneficial and.

It shouldn't just be a cursory thing taught in schools.

That's one of the reasons, this is one of the big reasons why we wanted to

teach the class because more people more acupuncture should be doing this.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So this is a piece of our medicine that we need to.

Grab the wheel of it, so to speak and take ownership.

Totally.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, you know, we tell people, we tell our students that if they aren't

already using guash our regularly, it's going to change their practice.

And I, it really does.

I mean, I think about some of the patients I had before I started

using a guash are regularly people I really could have helped, you know?

And I, I remember them kind of with that Pang of regret, like I had only known

at the time I really could have helped.

It also helps a lot with, uh, pediatric issues.

Cause I know at least my children don't always.

And ask for acupuncture, but they will ask for GWAS.

Uh huh.

So what kind of pediatric issues do you work with with your kids on that?

Well, it's kind of alarming that young children can have knots in

their backs, but sometimes they do with these backpacks that they're

carrying around full of books.

But also if they feel like they're coming down with anything, it works

really well to interrupt that.

And I suspect that's true for adults as well.

It's a very, very early stages of a wind cold or heat in particular.

This could be helpful, huh?

Yes.

But also if it's gotten in deeper to shaoyang or Yangming stages,

you can also help the person.

I had somebody come with an active flu.

It had been going on long enough that he couldn't get anything at the hospital.

And he came in to see me with a fever and.

It usually turns to pneumonia in him.

So we really wanted to, I, I, I told him he definitely should come in and

I did WASA over his upper back and also over the lung area in the front.

And by the end of the treatment, he, his body temperature was closer to normal.

And later he texted me that his fever.

It's gone and his temperature was 98.6 and it didn't get into his

lungs the way it usually does.

So it even for when it's gotten more advanced, you can still help the patient.

That's stunning.

It really is when I'm just, I'm just, I'm sitting here thinking

that is sending it's so simple.

I, you know, I wonder if that might be part of why the profession has

an embraced it as fully as it could, because sometimes we think to be

effective, things have to be more complex and that's not always the case.

Sometimes something that's very simple can be the most effective.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And, and again, you know, this is kind of repeating what I had said before,

but you you're just generating so much Goodwill with the patient by addressing

their, you know, pain or, or if it's a extreme, you know, respiratory

condition or something where they come into the office wanting relief and you

know, who doesn't want pain relief.

And then if you want to work with them on those issues that do take more

complicated treatment protocols, you, you know, like you have that good.

Yeah, the, I mean the pain relief piece is of course, very, very helpful.

And it's often what brings people to an acupuncturist I'm really

struck here by what Sandy has to say about treating a flu.

That's not just at the beginning stage, but actually sort of in full blown.

Those are, those are hard to treat.

I spent a little time in Asia in acupuncture clinics and herbal clinics.

And.

Yeah.

I mean, I put my nose into studying some medicine over there and I, I never

saw wasabi being used as part of the I'm using air quotes here, medicine.

Right.

But I did see people walking around with Shaw all the time,

especially like in Beijing and the.

When it's dry and it's beginning to get cold and it's dusty as all get out.

And it's really common for people to have sore throats and, you know,

the kind of a dry invasions that you would expect at that time of year.

And in the fall, people be walking around.

I mean, lots of people like all over the place, they'd be walking around with three

stripes on the front of their throat, one right in the center where the wind

pipe, and then on either side, right.

Sort of.

Stomach Meridian.

And it was interesting to me because I never saw that done at any of the clinics.

But I'd see people walking around with this.

And I it's like where who's doing this on.

Maybe they're doing it at home for themselves.

I think you mentioned, you know, it's the aunties and the grandmothers,

oftentimes who are, who are doing this on their own children and grandchildren.

And.

Another another point to make is that, you know, when you start to

do WASA on somebody and you see it coming up at the edge of where you're

doing the stroking, don't stop there.

Just follow it, follow it until it doesn't come up because you

don't want to leave that behind.

You want to get that out, right?

Right.

I, you know, often treat shoulder pain and, um, more often than not,

you know, I'll, I'll just work my way down the arm, you know, either whether

it be the large intestine channel or the triple heater channel, and

you can see like that it's the shot.

Doesn't stop at the shoulder.

Pretty far down.

I was gonna say, so you just want to check and make sure I understand this.

You want to keep stroking and scraping and see where it goes to you sort of follow

what's rising up on the skin, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

The body will tell you.

Yeah, I've treated people with a concussion, you know, and the neck

is a good place to work on for that and the, the base of the skull.

And I just keep following, if it goes all the way around to the front of the

neck, I just keep following it around till it doesn't come up because, and

oftentimes, you know, we kinda, I kinda try to train my patients to let me know

where they still feel any tightness.

You don't want to leave that behind.

Right.

For concussions.

Oh yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

Well, I found it so helpful, you know, with concussions and of course this is

something big in the news these days.

'cause, it's not just the physical things like headaches and maybe photophobia

or, uh, but also there's emotional components oftentimes to concussions

that can be improved with Gwoza.

I find people feel calmer.

They have less emotional lability and feel more stable.

I think it's an essential part of treating concussions.

Yeah.

Agreed.

There's so much in the new, he stays with, you know, the opioid crisis, uh,

and ways other ways that the CDC has recommended to doctors to deal with

pain other than narcotic pain relief.

And we have this tool at our disposal that can provide that.

So this is something that in addition to acupuncture could be helpful for the pain.

That people are usually taking opioid drugs for.

So this is, this could help with the opioid crisis is what.

Yes, absolutely.

You know, you also mentioned the spirit calming.

I've heard, you mentioned this a couple of times in our discussion today.

So what about in situations like where acupuncturists without borders

go where there's disasters or there's people that are, you know,

they've suffered some sort of trauma.

The five needles in the ear is very helpful for that.

Uh, it sounds like wash socks could be.

Uh, component in helping people through these sorts of traumas.

Is that, is that your take on it as well?

I'm sure that it could be hugely beneficial for that, you know, for

the first responders, as well as the victims of the, whatever the disaster is.

I think it could be really helpful for that.

People will often describe that they had a deeper sleep.

The night after the glossy and you know, not only my personal experience of feeling

instantly calm or after Gwoza many people have talked about feeling more relaxed.

And in our classes, the students who wouldn't have said at

the beginning, I don't know.

That they didn't feel relaxed at the end.

We'll talk about how they feel so much more relaxed as I think this tension that

we store in the body gradually builds up and it eventually just starts to you.

We think this is how it feels to be me.

And really that's a so much tension that's just stored in there and the glass

that can help get that out of the body.

Right.

I mean, blood is consciousness, right?

So when we move blood, we also move consciousness.

Tell us a bit about this class that you to T.

Right.

So, so the class is, it's a combination of, um, you know, w we will do

some lecturing and we do a whole lot of, uh, practical hands-on.

Whereas Sandy had mentioned previously that every person in the class will both

give and receive pretty much full body.

Guash up by the end of the class.

And we we've received great feedback from students.

Uh, not only on how informative the class was, but on how, how fun it was.

I mean, everybody really has a good time and it's, you can get

seven PDAs from the NCCA IOM.

And two of those are for safety, which are required in the renewal.

Right.

Okay.

So if you need to go do that and everybody needs to do that safety class, right.

We hate having to do.

Right, but in this case you'll love it.

You'll love.

Yeah.

That's great.

Hey, you, you mentioned full body and I'm thinking, oh yeah.

I mean, why not?

I mean, usually you work on the head or the, you know, the back that's very

common, but I mean, it does make sense.

You could do full body.

What about things like.

Plantar fasciitis.

Right?

That's like the opposite end of the body from where we usually

think about doing quash definitely.

Or shin splints or things like that.

How, how would you, how would you approach that?

How would you treat plantar fasciitis requests?

Right.

Well, you can certainly start on the bottom of the foot and then

also treat the Achilles tendon and just, you know, go up the calf.

I mean, anywhere on the body where there's five.

And blood vessels is where you can do guash off.

So, um, you know, now you may not, you may not actually get

shot at all of these places.

Some parts of the body are, are going to generate shot more easily than others.

But I find that even when, not a lot of shock comes up, but it's still

therapeutic because again, you're still breaking up adhesions in the fascia.

I really appreciate not just this conversation, but the

previous one that we had as well.

It has, it's made, it's already making a difference in my practice.

In fact, I had a guy in the other day, I'm not sure where this is going to go.

He's got fairly well advanced ALS.

And he came in saying, yeah, I'm not asking you to treat my ALS.

I mean, the guy can't even hold his head up.

Right.

He comes in.

He's like, he's like bent over almost 90 degrees.

But he's got back pain has got shoulder pain.

It's like, you know, just, if you can just help me to have

less pain, that'd be great.

And I'm thinking, well, you know, it kind of flipped me out

a little bit at first, right?

So like, well, ALS rasa, I mean, this I'd like to try it.

I don't know how this is going to go with him.

Right.

Always a little nervous when it's a condition I've not seen before.

So I worked on his lower back and then I worked on his shoulders, which like turn.

Yeah, I quickly, oh my God.

And he, you liked how it felt.

And then as he, and he had someone drive him over, he can't drive.

As he's sitting in the chair to pay me at the ads, both myself and him and

the person that brought him in notice that he's actually sitting in the

chair and he's holding his head up.

His head is being held up.

I mean, he's holding his head up.

He's not having to hold it up.

He's not hunched over his head was.

That's really amazing.

That's really beautiful.

It actually gets me choked up.

It does me too.

That's so wonderful.

I mean, you're, you're increasing the blood circulation to the

area you're affecting the fascia.

I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of things going on and, and.

This is why we should all be using it because who knows

what, what it can be useful for.

I don't think we know that.

I don't think we know the limits need to get out and start using it.

That's right.

Yes.

Yes, absolutely.

When I first started doing it a lot in the office, I got a little bit nervous about,

you know, sending people home, looking so.

You know, kind of beat up, but I always send people home with a information

sheet so they can read about it there.

Their spouse can read about it.

And I have found that the, the way that it looks, it has been absolutely.

It doesn't matter at all.

Um, people really don't care because they feel so great after the.

That's it.

That's the important point.

I think.

I mean, most people aren't coming to us for needles.

Right.

They're coming to us to feel better and they don't, they don't care so

much about what the technique is.

And it's the same with WASA.

If you, they feel better, that's, what's going to matter to them.

Well, great.

We're about to wind this thing down.

I've I've so enjoyed the conversations we've had.

Is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners

before we say goodbye for today?

Well, we are, uh, I'm not exactly sure when this is airing, but

we're teaching the weekend of April 20th in, uh, Madison, Wisconsin.

It w we're having a class that Saturday and that class is

sponsored by the Wisconsin.

Uh, society of certified certified acupuncturist, I think

is what whisker stands for.

Is that correct?

Sandy?

I think so.

Yes.

And, um, so there's still, you know, if, if anyone in that area is listening and

they're still, it's still time before the class, we'd love to have you join that.

And you could go to Catherine's website in order to book us,

to teach a class in your area.

If that's what you'd like to do.

Yes.

We, we want to teach in as many places as possible, so yeah, absolutely.

And invite us and we shall come and spread the spread the gloss holla.

Yeah.

I'll make sure all that stuff is on the show notes.

And, uh, people can go find you too, Catherine and Sandy.

Thank you so much for your time today.

This is.

Wonderful stuff.

And I hope our colleagues will grab it, own it, use it, let people know this

is a wonderful aspect of our medicine.

Great.

Thank you so much, Michael, for the opportunity to talk about this, I, I

love talking about Gwoza and doing it.

Yes.

Likewise.