In this conversation our guest this week is Isabelle Serafin, a clinical case manager, along with us, your hosts, Monica and Dylan, discuss our experiences in addiction and recovery. We delve into the role of art in recovery, the significance of engaging in hobbies, and the challenges we faced in early recovery. We also explore the impact of identity on addiction and recovery, the reality of relapse, and the importance of representation. Additionally, we highlight the disparity between sober living and halfway houses, emphasizing the lack of available options for women and the hurdles they encounter in accessing gender-specific substance use treatment. We stress the need for more equitable access to recovery resources, advocating for government legislation and grants to support women's sober living. Our conversation also touches on how individuals can contribute by getting people into treatment, carrying Narcan, and staying informed about addiction. We underscore the importance of compassion and understanding towards those suffering from addiction and acknowledge the role of social media in providing hope and support.

Takeaways

Engaging in artistic spaces has helped me in recovery, allowing me to regain my sense of humanness.

Having hobbies and creative outlets has been a crucial component of my recovery journey.

Meeting people where they're at in their recovery is something I've found to be crucial for providing effective support.

Relapse is a common part of my recovery story, but I've come to understand that it is not inevitable or necessary for everyone.

Representation and diversity in recovery spaces are personally important for me to see myself and find hope in my own recovery. The significant lack of available sober living options for women has made it challenging for me and others to access gender-specific substance use treatment and recovery resources.

Improving access to recovery resources for women requires government legislation and grants that prioritize women's sober living and address barriers like insurance coverage and location.

I can contribute by getting people into treatment, contacting admissions at treatment centers, and providing support and resources to those in need.

Carrying Narcan and staying informed about addiction are ways I can support the recovery community and potentially save lives.

Exercising compassion and understanding towards those suffering from addiction, and staying informed about the issue, can help break down stigmas and promote empathy.

Sharing my personal recovery stories and milestones on social media can serve as a beacon of hope and inspiration for others who may be struggling with addiction or related issues.

Isabel's Instagram: @IsabelSerafin

Follow us at: @BloomScrollingPodcast

Chapters

00:00

Introduction and Background

03:00

The Role of Art in Recovery

05:27

Finding Humanness in Artistic Spaces

09:14

Engaging in Hobbies and Rediscovering Passion

10:10

Connecting People to Recovery Resources

11:31

The Importance of Focus in Early Recovery

13:38

The Challenges of Externalizing and Personal Responsibility

15:30

Meeting People Where They're At in Recovery

17:24

The Importance of Breakthroughs in Recovery

19:19

The Role of Identity in Addiction and Recovery

24:07

The Reality of Relapse in Recovery

26:59

The Impact of Identity on Addiction and Recovery

39:41

The Importance of Representation in Recovery

49:40

The Difference Between Sober Living and Halfway Houses

52:33

Lack of Availability of Sober Living for Women

54:30

Resource Desert for Women Seeking Recovery

57:22

Improving Access to Recovery Resources

58:16

How Individuals Can Help

59:44

Carrying Narcan as an Ally

01:01:08

Exercising Compassion and Staying Informed

01:02:07

Being a Beacon of Hope

01:03:34

Would You Rather: 50 Duck-Sized Horses or One Horse-Sized Duck?

Welcome to the Bloom Scrolling Podcast.

2

Hi, I'm Monica.

3

And I'm Dylan.

4

We hope to inspire our listeners by giving

a platform to those doing important work

5

in service to others.

6

We believe that even the smallest actions

can help invoke lasting change.

7

Less doom, more bloom.

8

In our very first episode today, Kintsuki,

the art of recovery, we're talking to my

9

good friend, Isabelle Seraphine.

10

She's a great friend of mine.

11

She's a certified recovery coach who's

been working in addiction treatment for

12

the past two years both in sober living

settings and Residential substance use

13

treatment.

14

She also has six years of experience

working in the municipal and state

15

politics in various capacities.

16

Isabel identifies as a queer woman of

color.

17

as well as a person in sustained long

-term recovery.

18

Isabelle also serves as a board member for

Colorado Artists in Recovery, a statewide

19

nonprofit which facilitates arts and

wellness programming for people seeking

20

recovery from addiction and mental health

issues.

21

And I want to thank you all for being

here.

22

We had a lot of fun doing this and we're

looking forward to making more episodes

23

soon, so stay tuned.

24

It's love like we're dying

25

you

26

All right, so welcome to the very first

episode of Bloom's Girling.

27

You are our very first guest.

28

Who are you?

29

Esteemed.

30

My name is Isabelle Seraphin.

31

Professionally, I work as a clinical case

manager at a residential substance use

32

treatment center.

33

I am also a person in long -term recovery.

34

Mostly from alcohol, but I consider myself

an equal opportunity drug user.

35

And I've got a little less than two and a

half years sober.

36

I've done some work in the political

world.

37

And also I work with Dylan, which is how

we know each other.

38

Hi.

39

What do you do at the residential

substance use treatment center that we

40

work at?

41

At the residential substance use treatment

center that we work at.

42

I do detox counseling, do a lot of intake

assessments, do a lot of bickering back

43

and forth with you.

44

Yeah, actually.

45

I also run the Young Adult Group, which is

a lot of fun.

46

And also the HOPE group, which is our

opioid group that we do, which works

47

because I'm in recovery from opiate

addiction.

48

I have.

49

All the five years sober in June, which is

really cool.

50

And don't clap.

51

We're recording.

52

Congratulations, both of you.

53

Thank you.

54

You can keep going.

55

I interrupted.

56

I'm sorry.

57

It's so...

58

It's all right.

59

I'll cut all this.

60

I don't think you should.

61

OK, so yeah, I've been...

62

You can bleep it.

63

You're doing the post.

64

Just bleep the name.

65

Yeah.

66

Yeah.

67

Continue.

68

Bleep.

69

You've been at the Residential Substances

Use Treatment Center for how long?

70

I've been at this place for, I think it'll

be two years in March.

71

Wow.

72

So you've been there almost as long as

I've been sober.

73

Yeah.

74

I think you were just leaving.

75

Oh my God.

76

As a client when I had showed up, I think

it was probably just a few months.

77

That's crazy.

78

Yeah.

79

Yeah.

80

But we had actually met quite a bit before

that, before I started working there too,

81

because you, another thing that we have in

common, I get, well, I don't know if I met

82

you at the open mic nights, but you work

at another treatment center where I do

83

work for one of the other organizations

I'm involved in, which is Colorado Artists

84

in Recovery.

85

They put on free arts programming for

people in recovery from mental health and

86

substance use.

87

And I am see the open mics there and

you've played the open mics.

88

I don't know if that's how I met you, but

that is another thing that we have in

89

common is being musicians more or less in

recovery.

90

That's not how we met, but it's fine.

91

All right.

92

Did I meet you?

93

What came first?

94

Is you performing at the open mic or?

95

Because I've been at those open mics.

96

I 100 % probably saw you there.

97

But then I brought a meeting up to the

treatment center.

98

I don't think you're up the one or two

that I went to.

99

No, I met you when you brought one of the

meetings up.

100

OK.

101

Yeah.

102

Because I'm also a member of 12 step,

which we also can't say by name.

103

I don't know what step you're talking

about.

104

Why not?

105

Inanimity.

106

is the spiritual foundation of all of our

traditions, ever reminding us to place

107

principles before our personalities.

108

Are we even talking about this?

109

Well, we can say 12 -step.

110

Yeah.

111

Well, I think that's important too,

because the treatment center we work at is

112

12 -step based, and that'll be part of

what we talk about today, is like 12 -step

113

programs in general, whether it's AANA,

CMA.

114

I can say I'm a member of one of them,

probably.

115

I think it's fine.

116

How many steps are in your...

117

Program 12.

118

Oh, cool.

119

Okay.

120

12 steps.

121

Do you still do the open mics?

122

Yeah.

123

At the other recovery centers?

124

Is it treatment centers?

125

Yeah.

126

Cool.

127

I do.

128

Yeah, there's, there's like two that I

regularly attend, but going to those open

129

mics and having like an additional

component to recovery besides just

130

12 step meetings and sober living and like

the clinical piece of things.

131

That was really important to me, feeling

like I was a human being again and not

132

just like, I don't know.

133

I think there is something about early

recovery that can feel almost like

134

dehumanizing.

135

You're humbled pretty substantially, which

is necessary, but I feel like engaging in

136

artistic spaces, that's where I started to

get like,

137

um, my humanness back, I guess.

138

I don't know, Dylan, would you say that

that was your experience at all?

139

Well, I got my first treatment job from

showing up to that open mic, which is kind

140

of a cool story, you know, just showed up

and said, Hey, I was in, I'm in recovery

141

and I wanted to work in the field and, um,

it was LB actually.

142

I just.

143

name dropped.

144

Should have her on the pod.

145

She's great.

146

I thought she said her name earlier, but

we weren't recording.

147

So sorry.

148

Anyway, yeah, I just shot her a text and

she said, yeah, we'd love to have you.

149

And that was my first job in treatment.

150

And also, like I did my recovery skills

today, which is all based around music as

151

well.

152

And just kind of.

153

kind of going off of active listening and

listening underneath, you know, listening

154

to the lyrics, trying to see, hey, what's

this artist talking about?

155

You know, like, and obscure questions,

like what color would the song be, you

156

know, and make them think in a more

creative way, like a different way than

157

they might not have before answering

questions like that.

158

And also just kind of just rediscovering a

passion in recovery is huge, you know,

159

like I talk about my music.

160

and my band and how integral integral

integral that is to my recovery.

161

You know, having that outlet, having that

creative space, the community of artists,

162

which is really cool.

163

And I don't know, just something really

fulfilling to spend your time on, you

164

know, rather than whatever else we were

doing out there running and gunning and

165

being.

166

uh, something degenerates.

167

Thank you to society.

168

Did you, um, did you like form your own

model for your discovery skills, skills

169

class?

170

Um, is that something you came up with on

your own or was there a template that was

171

already in place?

172

Uh, it was all mine.

173

Actually.

174

Uh, I even made a form on Google sheets or

was it word Excel?

175

Excel, not important, I guess.

176

But yeah, no, I had a lot of fun coming up

with the questions and they developed over

177

time, you know, like they changed over

time.

178

I was a little too specific with some of

the questions because I said things like,

179

oh, what, like, is this a major minor

scale?

180

And people were like, I don't know what

that means.

181

And then I was like, OK, remove that.

182

What instruments do here?

183

And all they know.

184

as guitars and drums, you know, and so

that was always the same answer, even

185

though that's not.

186

One say that's all that there is.

187

Yeah, because bass is irrelevant,

honestly.

188

But not to say that it's not, it doesn't

have its place.

189

You know, I know you're learning bass

right now, so.

190

Yeah, that's one thing about recovery is

like endlessly picking up hobbies that

191

I'll probably never finish.

192

Yeah, I'm trying to learn the bass, trying

to learn the piano.

193

Mostly songwriting is what like helped me

connect to my recovery though.

194

I think there's something really valuable

and that's, I mean, part of what I love

195

about working at a residential facility is

that you're there for these really

196

critical moments in people's lives and in

my own recovery.

197

Cause I went to the treatment center where

I work at now.

198

I went there in 2021, in November of 2021

and like,

199

I'm sure there were people there that

maybe remember me, but I definitely

200

remember like the clients that I work

with.

201

There's these moments that sometimes we

get to bear witness to, to where they like

202

make this really real connection to

something that's gonna be meaningful to

203

them in the longterm.

204

And being in case management, that's

something that sometimes I get to directly

205

connect people to, right?

206

Like.

207

because not only do I help set them up

with clinical aftercare, like intensive

208

outpatient therapy, I can set them up with

that, or they're individual therapists

209

that they might work with for years

afterwards if I do my job well.

210

But I also get to set them up with

organizations like Colorado Artists in

211

Recovery if they have any inclination

after listening to Dylan's Recovery Skills

212

Group or doing one of the open mic nights

up there on campus, if they're like, oh,

213

this kind of lit me up in a way that I

haven't felt.

214

before or haven't felt since getting sober

or what have you, then I get to help

215

connect them to that too.

216

And that's so cool to be a part of.

217

That is so cool to know that you can just

kind of, I don't know, move someone along

218

in their journey.

219

Cause I think there were a lot of things

in my own journey that took me longer than

220

they needed to.

221

Do you ever hook people up with jobs?

222

Like you both went to...

223

the place that you're working right now.

224

Do you ever, yes?

225

No.

226

No.

227

People try to get jobs while they're

there, but I think so like, and it's

228

interesting because that's a very, that's

something that people are usually very

229

concerned about.

230

And there is a huge overlap between like

coming back from.

231

like rock bottom in addiction and poverty.

232

So while I do not set them up with jobs,

the main reason being that like they need

233

to focus on getting well first.

234

They have like 30 days that's very

different usually than what most people

235

experience in their life, which is like 30

days where it's just you focusing on

236

getting well.

237

You don't have to focus on making money.

238

You don't have to focus on making your

meals.

239

You don't have to focus on, a lot of

people don't even focus on.

240

Like getting ready, right?

241

Doing their makeup, stuff like that.

242

So they definitely don't need to be

focused on getting a job.

243

So hopefully, again, if I do my job well,

I can set them up in a place like Sober

244

Living, which will scholarship their first

month so that they can focus in that 30

245

days on just getting well.

246

And then when they get out and they get

into a supportive recovery environment

247

like Sober Living, which is part of my

story, I spent a long time in Sober

248

Living.

249

They get there and then they have another

month to focus on getting like a recovery

250

job.

251

And I have air quotes around that because

usually that's like a part -timer at

252

Starbucks that, you know, will pay for

what is typically a lower rent than most

253

rents out here in Colorado.

254

And sometimes the scholarships are even

tiered too.

255

So it'll scholarship like 100 % of your

first month and 50 % of your second month

256

and then 25 of your third month.

257

So it's...

258

even a little bit more cushion so you can

just focus because when people start to

259

get distracted by like, oh God, I need to

like figure out what my career is gonna be

260

for the rest of my life, even though I

just made it back from the brink of death,

261

people get into long -term relationships

and like really early recovery, like rehab

262

romances, right?

263

That's its own trope.

264

It's such a liability that we can see like

people like Dylan and I in long -term

265

recovery.

266

we can see how important it is to like

have that really sole focus.

267

Cause I think that's something that we

share in common with our stories.

268

It's like really for the first year I had

to like eat, sleep and breathe recovery.

269

And it really took me that much time.

270

Although part of my doing my job well too

is that recognizing that not everyone has

271

that luxury.

272

There's particularly working on the

women's side, a lot of people who have

273

children and...

274

you know, unless you have your kids taken

away, which happens a lot.

275

You know, sometimes life just has other

obligations for you.

276

But we try to get them as close to focus

as they can, as close to comfortable as

277

they can be so that they can focus.

278

Yeah, it's really easy to externalize, you

know, and just it's like sometimes it's

279

like anything to not look at myself, you

know, so if that's spending.

280

12 hours on Indeed in between groups so I

don't have to think about my life and

281

process whatever I need to to get better.

282

We see that all the time.

283

Yeah, and it's like, especially people

that come back in, they're like, well, I

284

relapsed because of my husband.

285

I relapsed because I hated my job.

286

And it's like, you relapsed because you're

an alcoholic or an addict and you're

287

powerless over this disease that I'm also

powerless over.

288

But I can see that.

289

And it's also not really our job to tell

people that.

290

To tell people like, no, you're

externalizing.

291

Because you have to meet people where

they're at.

292

So if I have a client that comes into my

office and they say my problem was my job,

293

well, I can't tell them, no, your problem

is you.

294

Because they're not going to receive that.

295

Do you hint towards it?

296

I mean, sometimes, but like, I...

297

to shut someone down and diminish trust if

I'm also the person that they're trusting

298

with the resources that they're going to

use after treatment.

299

So if I can avoid telling them that they

are the problem and let them know like,

300

well, if your job was stressing you out,

maybe you should quit your job and I can

301

get you a scholarship for sober living

that'll keep you comfortable for a month

302

while you look for a new one.

303

Right.

304

That's a much better way to redirect

something to.

305

the same end result than being like,

you're the problem, get your house where

306

it needs to be, you know?

307

And that's what like meeting people where

they're at looks like sometimes for me.

308

Dylan, you work in a different capacity.

309

So like, that looks different from you.

310

You have different objectives as a

counselor that I have as a case manager.

311

My job is really to get them to say yes to

the choices that I feel like are.

312

conducive to their recovery, but also

economically and logistically feasible.

313

And so I try to marry as many like healthy

clinical recommendations as I can with

314

what their life practically looks like.

315

But Dylan's job isn't necessarily to do

that.

316

It's to bring people closer to like having

those, what like the big book calls like,

317

I mean, spiritual experiences is one word

for it, but.

318

Breakthrough?

319

Yeah, I mean like a breakthrough, right?

320

Those realizations internally.

321

Yeah.

322

What do they call it in the big book?

323

What does Dr.

324

Seppert call Psychologic, psychic change.

325

Oh, profound psychological change or

something like that, yeah.

326

But I mean, we work in tandem too, and

that's what I like.

327

We'll get together and kind of come up

with a game plan for like.

328

how we want to approach certain things

too, which I think is really helpful.

329

Like being on the same page and knowing,

hey, this is what this client said in this

330

introduction.

331

This is what I'm feeling.

332

I think you might be able to push them

towards sober living, or maybe I think a

333

virtual IOP might be the only thing that

works.

334

Or people probably don't know any of these

terms we're talking about right now

335

either.

336

I just realized, but that's fine.

337

I want to hear about...

338

your experience so far.

339

In recovery?

340

Yeah, just the general essence of that

journey for you.

341

Well, I was being very selfish and

drinking to die.

342

And I thought that that's who I was.

343

And I thought it was kind of glamorous and

I thought it was cool.

344

And I was like, yeah, I feel all the

things and I'm...

345

I'm the saddest person that's ever lived.

346

And then I met Dylan and he was like, told

me his story about, he was like four years

347

sober when we met.

348

It was like that same month.

349

Oh wow, yeah.

350

I just got four years.

351

Yeah.

352

And I was like, well, you were, you're

living on Capp Hill and you were an IV

353

drug user and I could probably kick.

354

alcohol if you can do all of that and it

was pretty inspiring and I stuck with it

355

because you got really mad at me when I

relapsed and I was not a nice person.

356

So it definitely helped to like have that

mirror of somebody that's been through it

357

and he's like so like a little bit fed up

with me.

358

He was like what are you what are you

getting out of this basically?

359

Well, it's interesting too, because I

think, I mean, outside of clinical

360

treatment, just as a member of AA, there's

a lot more varying degrees to which people

361

come into like 12 step rooms.

362

I just doxed my program, but there's

varying degrees to which people come into

363

like 12 step rooms that are usually a lot

less dire than clinical treatment.

364

Because like,

365

If you came into treatment, that story

would probably be a little different in

366

the sense like I was living with my

partner and they kicked me out because I

367

was being so awful and they told me I can

either come to treatment or I can go fuck

368

myself.

369

Yeah.

370

What's cussing look like?

371

Yes.

372

Yeah.

373

OK.

374

Yeah, but like 12 step rooms, people will

be like, yeah, it's kind of ruining my

375

relationship and I don't like how I feel.

376

Because like you can go to a 12 step

meeting at any point in your life, you

377

know?

378

And that's not what gets everyone sober by

any means, but like, but I also hear just

379

in that short synopsis, a lot of

similarities, right?

380

Like I got sober at 22 and I'd been

drinking since I was 12 and that entire

381

time I was always drinking to die.

382

And,

383

And especially when I was drinking a lot

more, when I was drinking like two liters

384

of tequila a day, I was drinking almost as

punishment.

385

I wasn't drinking because it was fun or

because it was social.

386

I was drinking because I felt like I

deserved it.

387

And also, like, I couldn't really tolerate

the world outside of me.

388

And I think whether people like to admit

it or not, most people drink to cope.

389

Like,

390

even just what we consider like quote

unquote normies, like you have a bad day

391

at work and you say like, oh, I need a

drink.

392

Yeah, because you don't really want to

cope with the day you had.

393

And it doesn't mean that you can't, but

that's just kind of how alcohol is used in

394

our societies.

395

And I think for those of us that have more

traumatic lives or different experiences

396

or different genetic predispositions,

397

we get fed that culture and then we run

with it to a detrimental point.

398

it's Miller time, you know?

399

Like, you deserve this.

400

Yeah, right.

401

And so it's like, yeah, so yeah, you

deserve this on two fronts, right?

402

You deserve this because you deserve

escape, but also you deserve this because

403

you deserve to die.

404

It's really an abysmal point at its

darkest.

405

And so like, turning to recovery,

406

I think that's part of what makes it so

hard is it's also a very foreign concept

407

for a lot of people that drink the way or

have those thoughts or rationalizations

408

for drinking.

409

Cause it's like, okay, well now I'm making

a good choice for myself and that's also

410

strange.

411

And that's also foreign, you know,

physical dependency aside.

412

Yeah.

413

Cause we're comfortable like being

uncomfortable, you know, like, like you

414

said, we feel like we deserve it.

415

We like to sit in our own shit, feel sorry

for ourselves.

416

Cause it's easier, you know, like we

don't.

417

We don't have to face the demons and I

don't know.

418

It just feels normal eventually until

terrible, just more terrible things

419

happen.

420

You know, it's just fucking, y 'all just

keep digging and digging and digging until

421

you realize something's gotta change, you

know?

422

And that looks different for everybody

too.

423

That's what's so hard about like treating

this too.

424

Like you need a multi -pronged approach.

425

There's not one size fits all.

426

We did the 30 day shake and bakes for

decades.

427

Decades, you know, like let's just throw

them in residential treatment.

428

They're there for 30 days and then we'll

just release them back into society and

429

it's just like We that was not effective.

430

That was not effective at all like how

You've been drinking heavily for 20 years

431

and you think in 30 days like you're gonna

learn all this To stop like it's not

432

realistic and then I don't know on top of

that I mean trauma therapy, you know, some

433

people need that some people don't some

some people

434

different sets of skills, different sets

of coping skills need to be learned.

435

Like it's so difficult.

436

And then on top of that, even tracking

success, right?

437

Like what does that look like?

438

We have no real easy way to determine like

if somebody's been successful, you know,

439

down the road.

440

Well, that's a good point.

441

That can kind of segue.

442

I want to hear what you were going to say

because it looked like you were going to

443

say something, but that's kind of good

segue to the relapse conversation.

444

Yeah.

445

I was gonna say, well, what has helped you

the most and like whether or not you think

446

relapse is a part of addiction.

447

Like, is it normal for people to relapse?

448

Sorry, Dylan, for setting you up.

449

Yeah, well, I think, I mean, for me,

relapse is not a part of my story, but it

450

played a huge part.

451

especially being in sober living because

like being as far down the scale as I

452

went, like no one is 22 and drinking two

liters of tequila in total liver failure

453

and is like fooling themselves into

thinking that their life is okay, right?

454

I was a pretty extreme case.

455

And I also knew like that everybody around

me, especially the more I started going to

456

meetings,

457

that people were saying things like, you

pick up where you left off.

458

And then people started saying that while

I was in treatment, like clinicians were

459

saying like, well, you pick up where you

left off and that's just how addiction

460

works.

461

Like you don't get to restart when you

pick up the bottle.

462

Like sometimes people get like two weeks,

two months, maybe even two years if

463

they're lucky of like not quite as bad

drinking, but like you always get back to

464

where you were and then you just cycle

from there.

465

and that scares the shit out of me.

466

So clinicians would tell you this?

467

They wouldn't be like, oh, you've got two

years sober and now you relapsed and you

468

should be proud of those two years?

469

No.

470

I mean, I don't think that people don't

say that, but like...

471

I said that today to a client that just

relapsed and came back.

472

Sure.

473

Was it two years?

474

Am I omniscient?

475

So I don't think that that is typically

the rhetoric because...

476

especially like in the rooms too, right?

477

Like, because if we start saying that, I

think the fear is that people will kind of

478

be given an inch and take a mile and think

that you can come back from it.

479

And the fact is that like, not everyone

can come back.

480

And a lot of people don't.

481

And so the messaging by and large, I don't

think is that like, yeah, you can probably

482

get away with like a couple of relapses

and we'll see you in a few years and

483

hopefully make it back.

484

Like that's not the message that we try to

put out there.

485

But I mean, there's also a widespread

understanding that relapse is a big part

486

of a lot of people's stories.

487

And there's definitely no shortage of

clinicians at that same treatment center

488

who relapse was a part of their story.

489

And like, you know, just as many

clinicians that have the attitude that

490

like it takes what it takes.

491

And if relapse is a part of that for you,

then like,

492

that's what's coming for you, but I don't

think that people for whom that's a part

493

of their story are advocating for it,

right?

494

Because usually it gets worse before it

gets better.

495

And that's what I was afraid of.

496

That's what I was afraid of.

497

God, how much worse can it fucking get?

498

Because I was really close to dying, like

really close to dying.

499

I can absolutely remember what it feels

like for the life to be physically leaving

500

my body more and more every day.

501

Are you still dealing with like physical

ramifications?

502

Maybe that depends on like the model of

post acute withdrawal syndrome, but I

503

don't think, so like my body bounced back

pretty quickly from liver failure.

504

It took about like nine months and my labs

were all coming back pretty normal.

505

But again, that's cause I got sober at 22.

506

And even though I had been drinking for

half of my life, that's still like a fifth

507

of how long a lot of alcohol.

508

are drinking for before they get sober.

509

So the damage wasn't quite as long term as

it could have been and wasn't at that rate

510

for as long as I had been drinking for.

511

So like, it's not like I was drinking two

liters a day since I was 12.

512

Yeah, it builds.

513

Yeah, it builds for sure.

514

But I think like, there's a lot of like

trauma that comes from active substance

515

use too.

516

And I certainly put myself in a lot of

517

risky situations because there wasn't

anything that I wouldn't do for a drink or

518

a drug.

519

And that trauma is probably going to

follow me for a long time.

520

So part of my recovery has kind of been

being like, okay, how do I not judge that

521

person that was very sick?

522

And like also recognize that I don't have

to be like seeing myself as a victim of

523

that for the rest of my life.

524

I don't know.

525

That's kind of getting off track though.

526

Dylan, what's your opinion of relapse?

527

Just to be clear, when I said that to a

client, what I reinforce when I say that

528

is it's like, because coming back after a

relapse, there's so much shame involved.

529

There's so much introspection and it's not

good.

530

We already have terrible views of ourself,

our self -esteem.

531

The confidence is just tanked, especially

if you got a period of time, especially

532

maybe six months to a year.

533

I mean, that's huge.

534

And that's what I tell them.

535

Every single thing that you learned every

single day that you had sober was a

536

fucking win.

537

You know, that's another day you went out.

538

You went without like using your drink or

drug.

539

And that's huge.

540

So like the one thing that you probably

won't agree with that I feel is that the

541

stock that we put on sobriety dates or at

least the talk around relapse, I feel like

542

it can be harmful sometimes.

543

And there's arguments on both sides, for

sure.

544

But I feel like and just from what I've

seen over the years is like the.

545

The.

546

The fucking cat, the cat, it makes it.

547

I don't know, personally, it just it seems

like to people coming back, it keeps them

548

from going to the rooms.

549

I hear a lot for a while, you know, like

they know a group of people and they

550

strung this time together and like they

were a pillar in that community, you know,

551

and like.

552

they slip up and they'll like, of course,

obviously the rooms aren't gonna judge

553

them for that, right?

554

But it doesn't feel that way.

555

So it's just interesting because it's

like, I feel like you didn't lose

556

anything, right?

557

Cause that's the conception when we talk

about that a lot is like, oh, I lost all

558

this time.

559

And I just don't like that messaging man.

560

Cause it's like,

561

The reality is the National Institute for

Drug and Alcohol Abuse, the relapse rate

562

is 85%.

563

And it's 40 to 60 % in the first six

months.

564

And then you sprinkle in IV users or

opiate users or drug users or just

565

polysubstance users in general, that goes

even higher.

566

So I think that...

567

I don't know the answer.

568

I don't know the answer to reframing any

of that.

569

And I don't think it takes away the

importance of a sobriety date either, but

570

it's just like, it's so hard to be the

outlier.

571

Like you've really got to do the work and

you've really got to understand the

572

reality of this disease.

573

When I run the opiate group, I'm like, you

are rolling the fucking dice.

574

Fentanyl wasn't in everything like when I

was using.

575

So a relapse, it was like.

576

It was rolling the dice anyway, but now

these days, like you're going to fucking

577

die.

578

You know, that's what I tell them.

579

Like that's the reality, man.

580

Like Narcan's good for the first 10

minutes, you know, after a fentanyl

581

overdose and then after that.

582

And it's like, it's just scary, man.

583

You know, so I think I think that's more

to your point, too, though, is it's just

584

being realistic, but also not like.

585

realistic to the point where it's

discouraging.

586

Right, yeah, no, you're not shaming.

587

And I don't disagree with that, too.

588

I've had a lot of sponsors like make some

incredibly dubious choices about their own

589

recovery and like start engaging in like

dishonest behavior and like lying because

590

they didn't want to reset their sobriety

date.

591

And that's just as harmful to be clear to

your recovery as like picking up a drink.

592

Right?

593

Just outright relapsing.

594

And yeah, I think it's, and that's the

thing is like, it's, I'm definitely

595

speaking more from the side of like, what

do we tell people versus what's like the

596

reality?

597

Because again, like, if, like, I don't

know that I would have gone as hard as I

598

did if,

599

the messaging I had gotten on my first go

-round, alcohol being my main drug of

600

choice.

601

I don't know that it would have gone as

hard if people were like, no, you can

602

relapse.

603

It's probably gonna be okay.

604

Like for me, I think I needed that fear in

my own recovery.

605

And it's yielded a lot of like really

harmful implication, like a lot of

606

perfectionism was just like really allowed

to flourish in that, in that.

607

kind of context, but, but I also think

that there's a lot more people that like,

608

it takes more than just one round of

treatment or like, you know, it really

609

doesn't matter how many relapses it takes

if you make it back, thank fucking God,

610

thank God.

611

And then you have a chance at like long

-term sobriety.

612

I think like the only thing you can't walk

back from is dying.

613

So.

614

To me as a person, relapses don't matter

and sobriety dates don't matter as long as

615

you're still alive.

616

It's just that like, you cannot tell

people that because we're always gonna

617

think we're invincible and we're always

gonna think that we have one more use or

618

one more drink or one more whatever.

619

And I've seen that lead to like a lot of

people dying.

620

And I think that's the other thing about

overdose too.

621

And like, this is maybe a conversation for

another.

622

professional is that like overdose is not

exclusive to addicts.

623

Like I have a cousin that presumably

overdosed to our knowledge was not an

624

addict.

625

He was just doing Coke at ACL like a lot

of people do.

626

Addicted or not and he fucking overdosed

and his friends who also weren't addicts

627

and aren't a part of like our world who

got scared and just left him alone to die.

628

Um, and I think that accounts for a lot

more overdose statistics too, then, uh,

629

then we like to think, cause that's a lot

more real to people that, that aren't

630

around this stuff every day.

631

And so I think like overdose in and of

itself and like loss from addiction is

632

almost like a completely different,

different topic than like recovery

633

necessarily.

634

Right.

635

Yeah.

636

I do want to say that.

637

Well, since you brought that up though,

uh, there's a good Samaritan law and I

638

think.

639

almost every single state now, you know,

like I had, I had like three felony

640

warrants and I had a friend fall out in my

car and it was just like, obviously his

641

life is more important than me going to

jail.

642

And it's like, I knew that there was the

good Samaritan law, right?

643

And basically what that law is, is it's

like, if you're saving somebody's life, if

644

it's an overdose, if it's a medical

emergency, like, and emergency services

645

shows up and you got warrants, like you're

not going to get picked up.

646

You're protected.

647

You're protected through this because of.

648

shit like that, you know, so anybody

listening just know that like save their

649

fucking life, man.

650

And even if you were going to go to jail,

you should fucking save their life anyway.

651

Right.

652

Well, does that protect you from

possession charges?

653

Yes.

654

Yeah, you won't get it.

655

Everything gets you from every charge.

656

But you got to you got to trust that the

police are going to like be on the up and

657

up to you now, which is like, who knows?

658

There's yeah, there's parameters around

it.

659

If if.

660

I would say like anyone that's listening

to this, if they believe themselves to be

661

in situations where they might utilize the

Good Samaritan law, whether that's because

662

you regularly use narcotics or maybe you

just party with people who do, just look

663

it up and get a little familiar with it

because like there are boundaries around

664

it, right?

665

So only one person in any given instance

is protected by that law.

666

So like if there's multiple people that

are using,

667

and one person calls the cops, everyone

around you is not protected by that.

668

So get them out of there.

669

Get this.

670

Everyone except for the person.

671

Take your drugs and keep them safe and

don't.

672

And then come to rehab.

673

And then come to rehab.

674

With us.

675

Don't keep the drugs safe.

676

Yeah, no, it's very nuanced.

677

I think like there's no linear discussion

around like recovery and addiction that's

678

had in a candid way.

679

So like a recovery podcast that is.

680

published by a treatment center, which

there's a lot of those out there, or

681

published by an organization that promotes

substance use and mental health recovery.

682

They're gonna have to say different things

than what we're saying right now.

683

I think that's important to note.

684

And that's a lot more understood among

people in recovery, but I do think it's

685

important for some of this stuff to be

said out loud.

686

And that's why we're not mentioning the

place that we were.

687

And that's why we're doing this also.

688

Yeah.

689

To be real with people about it a little

bit.

690

What are the percentages of fentanyl

relapse and then death?

691

Like how many relapses lead to death?

692

You say that sometimes you're like tempted

to tell your clients that like if they

693

only like seven percent of opiate users

actually make it through recovery.

694

Not exactly that.

695

I think long term recovery, you know, it's

and it's less than 10 percent.

696

And mind you, I'd have to fact check this

because these are statistics from like

697

seven years ago.

698

So it's probably lower now.

699

Yeah, for sure.

700

You know, and then you sprinkle in if

they're an IV user and then you sprinkle

701

in math, which I was all three because I

just all or nothing, you know, and then

702

alcohol too.

703

It's even lower.

704

So like I said, that's why I feel like

it's important.

705

It's important to stress that a little bit

in the sense that like, I have to work

706

hard.

707

You know, like I have to take this

seriously and I have to do the fucking

708

work because those aren't good odds and I

never fucking win anything.

709

But well, I guess except being alive and

being sober.

710

So that's a win.

711

I'm a cat.

712

I'm a cat.

713

I'm a cat.

714

One question I definitely want to ask.

715

Yeah.

716

And then.

717

You can do whatever as far as, yeah, you

can whatever, follow your heart.

718

And I think this is an important question

and it's one of the reasons why I thought

719

you'd be perfect for this first episode,

you know, because like you have, you're

720

able to speak on this stuff, you know, and

it's personal experience.

721

And I talked to you about this question,

right?

722

But how is your identity as a young adult

and a woman, person of color?

723

and a member of the LGBTQ plus community

shaped your experience with addiction and

724

recovery.

725

Like what does that look like?

726

Yeah.

727

So that actually reminds me on segues very

nicely from what was just said too,

728

because like speaking of statistics, when

I was in treatment, one of the, cause they

729

bring in speaker meetings on Saturday

nights and the guy started his speech by

730

being like, so,

731

This long -term success rate for substance

use, like addiction recovery is like 7%.

732

This treatment center is pretty nice.

733

So maybe it's like 12 % of alumni stay

sober long -term.

734

Now, if you're under the age of 25, knock

off a couple percentage points.

735

If you're a person of color, knock off a

couple percentage points.

736

if you are LGBTQ, knock off a couple

percentage points.

737

And I was sitting in there, this was like

maybe my first week, maybe second of

738

treatment.

739

I still know like basically nothing about

recovery.

740

And I'm like counting on my fingers.

741

I'm like, I think I'm in the negatives.

742

Like I have negative chance.

743

And then he goes on to say to, you know,

like IV drug users have a higher

744

statistical percentage of recidivism into

addiction.

745

And,

746

Even like tobacco users, nicotine users

have a higher risk of relapse.

747

And those are just the statistics.

748

But then he goes on to say, like, if you

do intensive outpatient therapy, which is

749

this IOP we've been talking about, add a

couple of percentages back.

750

If you do sober living, add a couple

percentages back.

751

And then however long you stay in there,

the percentage increases.

752

If you do AA in the long term, you've got

like a 30 percent chance, which is

753

actually like double.

754

what it is for just doing residential

treatment alone.

755

And I was like, okay, so I'm not

completely powerless in this.

756

It's not just about the fact that I just

happened to have gotten this a little

757

younger.

758

It's not just about the fact that like, I

happen to be a person of color, happen to

759

be a queer woman of color.

760

Like I actually do have some, some power

based off of the decisions I make right

761

here right now in my first go round.

762

And that's part of what motivated me.

763

Besides just the fear of relapse, it was

like, okay, I know right off the bat that

764

I'm at higher risk because of all of these

identity markers.

765

So I'm gonna go hard as fuck in my

aftercare plan to make sure as much as

766

humanly possible that there's like no

chance that I relapse, which is why I did

767

literally everything you could do.

768

But I did all of my aftercare in...

769

Fort Collins slash Loveland, Colorado.

770

So I walked in my first AA meeting and

within the first few meetings, I realized

771

there was like no people of color.

772

There's very few women, because this was

after COVID and like people were still

773

coming back from in -person meetings.

774

There's like no one under the age of 30.

775

And I suddenly felt really alone again.

776

And I was like, shit, does anyone like me

do this?

777

Because it seems like it.

778

I don't.

779

It seems like, you know, those statistics

are pretty on the money.

780

I think of myself as very lucky to like, I

think anyone that makes it into a 12 step

781

room can consider themselves lucky because

if you put in the effort to like raise

782

your hand and say you're a newcomer,

you're gonna be welcomed in with open

783

arms.

784

That is like a luxury that we're all

afforded if we just have the courage to

785

like raise our hand.

786

But I was no exception to that.

787

They welcomed me in regardless of my

demographics and kind of showed me how to

788

love myself.

789

and made it a lot easier for this seed of

like otherness that was kind of planted in

790

me from the get -go to be nurtured into

like motivation.

791

Because I was like, well, the next, you

know, young person of color is going to

792

need to see that at least like one other

fucking Mexican is sober in Fort Collins.

793

The next like young woman that's under the

age of 25 is going to need to see me in

794

there with more than just like a couple of

days strung together and know that long

795

-term recovery is possible.

796

the next queer young person, because

that's a battle in and of itself, even

797

still.

798

They need to know that it's possible.

799

And they need to see more than anything

else just how much work went into it.

800

Because that's the other thing I'm pretty

vocal about is how much work I put in.

801

Because my story would not be a zero

relapse story if it weren't for the amount

802

of work that I did.

803

my story would not be a zero relapse story

if it weren't for the fact that I was

804

perfectly situated to do all of the

components of aftercare that I did.

805

And like all of the little accolades that

I picked up along the way, like getting

806

recovery coach certified, finishing my

undergraduate degree, house managing a

807

sober living, those things were only

possible because I did literally all of

808

the work that you could possibly do.

809

because I had no reservations left that I

had any better inkling of how to do life

810

than the people around me that had long

-term sobriety.

811

So that surrender for me was huge.

812

I think that's not specific to my

identity, but there is a part of being a

813

young woman of color that from the get

-go, I've always had this attitude of I'm

814

not actually afforded the same luxuries as

other people, so why would my recovery be

815

any different?

816

Yeah, does that answer your question?

817

Yeah, it does.

818

Being a young person in recovery is so

important, you know, for other people to

819

see because you're 30 and under.

820

I remember I'm like, yeah, there's no

fucking way.

821

You know, Dylan's not 30, by the way.

822

You know what?

823

He's over 30 and over now.

824

Continue.

825

I am.

826

Yeah.

827

OK.

828

Thanks for that.

829

It's my birthday next week.

830

So, Jurassicophobia is alive and well

today.

831

You were saying you remember being 30 and

under.

832

Yeah, and just, it's discouraging as fuck,

you know?

833

And like, shit, I relapsed a lot.

834

And just knowing that like, I think I was

talking to you about this the other day,

835

or you, or both, about if you go to...

836

a certain meeting, like an opiate meeting,

whatever.

837

And they ask, hey, who here's got more

than a year sober?

838

It's not a lot of hands.

839

And it's just, it's so nice to be able to

see somebody that age.

840

And you really get through to them too.

841

Like I see it all the time and they love

you.

842

And the fact that it's like,

843

Hey, I can still have fun.

844

I can feel fulfilled.

845

I can have a good life, like sand

substances, you know, like I don't need to

846

party and like go drink all the time at 22

because that's what everybody else is

847

doing.

848

You know, I think it's really important

and it's really cool that you're a case

849

manager too, you know, so just all of that

together is super important.

850

And I think it's really inspirational to.

851

through our clients is all I'm gonna say.

852

Listen.

853

I'm gonna be mean to you tomorrow.

854

Yeah.

855

Well, and I think that's a thing too.

856

That's why I really love case management

specifically is like, cause I am the

857

person that tells them the next thing to

do.

858

And I remember sitting in my, thank God I

was desperate.

859

Cause I sat in my case manager's office

and was like, you could tell me that I

860

need to go to jail for the next six months

and I'd stay sober and I would do it.

861

No hesitation.

862

But.

863

You know, my clients don't have that.

864

They have me who's like, listen, I'm not

telling you this because like I'm making

865

money off of it because I've got friends

that are profiting off of it.

866

Because by the way, like no one is

profiting from addiction treatment.

867

I'm sure somebody is, but it's not But it

is not me.

868

I'm telling you this because this is what

I did.

869

And like, I don't know how to get sober

any other way.

870

Like I'm giving you my suggestion as an

addict, an addict who statistically had

871

like zero fucking chance.

872

Negative chance.

873

Negative, yeah, thank you.

874

Negative chance of staying sober.

875

And this is what I did and it worked.

876

So depending on how close you wanna get to

that or how much you see of yourself in me

877

and in my story, you are more than welcome

to try to do as much as I did and I will

878

help you get there.

879

as much as you're willing to do, I will

help you get there and make sure it's as

880

positive an experience as possible.

881

You're going to the best of those places

that I can possibly send you to.

882

Like I try to, yeah, make them see that it

is real and I'm not just pitching it

883

because that's what I'm supposed to say.

884

It's like, that is what I did.

885

So you're like a big advocate for sober

living and I don't know if, cause I didn't

886

know until.

887

a few minutes ago.

888

But what's the difference between a sober

living and a halfway house?

889

And why did you find it so beneficial?

890

Yeah.

891

So halfway house is usually court ordered

in there, usually like bunk beds and the

892

cockroaches and people smoking dope in the

bathrooms.

893

And it's a terrible place.

894

I was there.

895

Yeah.

896

I was in a room full of sex offenders with

childhood trauma.

897

So that was great.

898

You know, and.

899

people overdosing left and right, it's

people who don't care if they're there or

900

not, you know?

901

Right, they're there because they have to

be there.

902

And the facilities themselves are not set

up in a way to be like reinforcing

903

whatsoever.

904

And that's the thing with the carceral

system and everything attached to it is

905

that it's not supposed to make you feel

good.

906

It's not supposed to make you want to come

back.

907

Sober living is supposed to make you feel

like you have dignity again.

908

It's supposed to help you live in

909

a supportive, peer -led environment in the

long term that is conducive to you getting

910

your dignity back.

911

So a lot of these houses, sober living

houses, not halfway houses, a lot of

912

halfway houses are near homeless shelters

and are in lower income neighborhoods or

913

very close to the prisons or jails that

people just got out of.

914

Sober livings, by and large, are gonna be

in a residential area.

915

It's like what I was telling you earlier,

it's like a multifamily home, single

916

family home with like four or five

bedrooms, probably in an upper scale

917

neighborhood to accommodate that level of

like space.

918

There might be like an elementary school

across the street, you know, you probably

919

wouldn't be able to tell.

920

And so like, you know, the houses are

furnished, they've got like art up on the

921

walls.

922

and you are getting like, you ate on a

weekly basis and breathalyzed on a weekly

923

basis.

924

And there's a person living there full

time called a house manager who makes sure

925

that you're in line.

926

But I needed that accountability because

I, I couldn't trust myself yet.

927

Like I had no reason to.

928

I had never done anything in my life,

esteemable enough to like warrant trust.

929

So, um, I think like,

930

Being in an environment with other women

in recovery too is really helpful because

931

they kind of taught me how to grow up.

932

A lot of them had more time than I did,

especially like my house manager who is

933

the LB that Dylan was talking about

earlier.

934

She happened to be my house manager.

935

Yeah.

936

And she really showed me what it meant to

live in recovery.

937

And you watch other women with the same

goal as you have.

938

walk through adversity and walk through

like seemingly impossible situations and

939

stay sober through it.

940

And I just needed to know that that was

possible.

941

And I needed to live with people who are

doing that and hear and watch how they

942

were doing that.

943

And it taught me how to keep my room

clean, which I had never done in my life.

944

So that was helpful too.

945

That's something I got out of being sober

too.

946

30 years old and my house is finally

clean.

947

Yeah.

948

It's an amazing feeling.

949

It's crazy.

950

But you were saying also that the sober

livings for women, especially here,

951

they're not as available.

952

No, yeah, they're super sparse.

953

And honestly, part of it could be because

for a long time there was this attitude

954

that women can't be alcoholics.

955

They certainly can't be drug addicts or IV

drug users.

956

that was like a men's problem.

957

That was like an attitude that people had

for a long, long time.

958

There's also like stereotypes still and

maybe even statistics that support this

959

that there's just more men out there who

suffer from addiction than women, which

960

per capita, I don't buy it for a second.

961

But in terms of services that are

available, like there's not even like

962

gender specific.

963

substance use treatment for women out here

that is accessible for most people.

964

Like there's I think one place in Denver

that takes insurance.

965

All of the other gender specific

programming for women don't take insurance

966

because they're long -term programs.

967

It's really prohibitive for most people.

968

So God forbid you're like a woman with

trauma who cannot be in a substance use

969

treatment center with men.

970

God forbid you like need to be in sober

living that's close to your kids and you

971

have to go to a house it's like,

972

30 miles away because there's just

nothing.

973

So there's a lot of really great women in

recovery specifically and some men in

974

recovery too who are opening women's sober

livings with that goal in mind of making

975

it more accessible and making it more

local to people who need it.

976

But there's a long way to go.

977

And like, don't even get me started.

978

Like the number of sober livings that

accept women and children, fucking forget

979

it.

980

you're in a safe house if that's what you

need.

981

With again, no focus on sobriety

necessarily.

982

So it's tough.

983

There's a huge resource desert for women

seeking recovery.

984

What do you think needs to happen for that

to become more available?

985

Is it government?

986

Is it just people?

987

Yeah, I think it's multifaceted for sure.

988

I think just like most like.

989

reasons for things becoming equitable.

990

It's like government mandated, right?

991

So I think that like, there needs to be

just more legislation around like

992

equitable access to recovery resources in

general, like, and that includes coming

993

for like insurance companies who keep it

prohibitive and keep it like the 30 day

994

status quo, which again, statistically is

not necessarily effective.

995

or at least not as effective as like 90

days, but also like requiring that like

996

every company that opens men homes needs

to open a woman's home, like stuff like

997

that.

998

I don't know if that would be feasible

specifically, but there's a legislative

999

component to it.

00:56:36,894 --> 00:56:40,694

And then I also think that like the people

that are forking out money to sober

00:56:40,694 --> 00:56:46,484

livings that are doing grants, I think

that they should prioritize women's sober

00:56:46,484 --> 00:56:52,014

livings, at least substantially enough to

where like people actually listen because,

00:56:52,014 --> 00:56:56,684

the same grants that award sober living

scholarships that prioritize IV drug users

00:56:56,684 --> 00:56:58,274

and people of color.

00:56:59,574 --> 00:57:03,864

That's certainly necessary, but it's only

for scholarships.

00:57:03,864 --> 00:57:06,724

It's not necessarily for like the houses

themselves.

00:57:06,724 --> 00:57:10,934

So I think the focus needs to change a

little bit on that.

00:57:10,934 --> 00:57:14,214

And this is speaking from somebody that

doesn't write the grants and doesn't write

00:57:14,214 --> 00:57:14,944

the legislation.

00:57:14,944 --> 00:57:19,694

So there's probably some of that already

out there, but it needs to be more.

00:57:19,694 --> 00:57:25,234

It just needs to be more because the need

is more than what we have access to.

00:57:25,274 --> 00:57:27,254

Yeah, you bring up a good point.

00:57:27,254 --> 00:57:32,014

Like from these from these settlements,

from these big pharmaceutical companies,

00:57:32,534 --> 00:57:33,394

billions.

00:57:33,394 --> 00:57:33,814

Right.

00:57:33,814 --> 00:57:36,054

And so that's being dispersed across the

US.

00:57:36,054 --> 00:57:40,704

But it's like it's kind of chaotic, you

know, and a lot of it's going to like

00:57:40,704 --> 00:57:44,794

residential treatment centers or IOPs and

stuff like that.

00:57:44,794 --> 00:57:46,990

But it's interesting because they don't

realize like.

00:57:46,990 --> 00:57:49,670

what happens after they leave the

residential treatment center.

00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:54,520

Maybe those people should get money too,

you know, or more of it, like, because

00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:58,510

aftercare is huge, you know, so I think

some of that money should be funneled into

00:57:58,510 --> 00:57:59,690

sober livings.

00:57:59,690 --> 00:58:00,070

Yeah.

00:58:00,070 --> 00:58:04,800

And regulating sober livings in general is

like almost its whole own issue and making

00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,920

sure that like the people running the

sober livings are running it ethically and

00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,020

safely, and it's not run by people who are

trying to turn a profit on people trying

00:58:13,020 --> 00:58:15,060

to get well, like that's.

00:58:15,060 --> 00:58:21,430

Sober living as an industry, because it's

not clinical necessarily, is fraught with

00:58:21,430 --> 00:58:22,680

its own set of issues.

00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,270

And there's regulatory boards that could

probably be tightened up a little more.

00:58:26,270 --> 00:58:28,710

And there's always improvements to be

made.

00:58:29,390 --> 00:58:36,110

It's a field that is directed towards the

most vulnerable of populations, which

00:58:36,110 --> 00:58:38,550

traditionally are taken advantage of.

00:58:38,550 --> 00:58:42,322

So our listeners, the laymen.

00:58:42,734 --> 00:58:44,894

or lay ladies.

00:58:46,194 --> 00:58:48,614

The lame men.

00:58:48,614 --> 00:58:50,054

The lame men.

00:58:50,054 --> 00:58:57,274

The lame men and women who are listening

to this podcast right now instead of doing

00:58:57,274 --> 00:58:59,114

drugs or something cool.

00:58:59,114 --> 00:59:00,354

Maybe while they're doing drugs.

00:59:00,354 --> 00:59:01,974

Why not both?

00:59:01,974 --> 00:59:04,184

What can they do to help?

00:59:04,184 --> 00:59:07,288

What do you think or somebody with.

00:59:07,342 --> 00:59:10,002

This is going to be like a multifaceted

question.

00:59:10,002 --> 00:59:16,312

Somebody that knows somebody that needs

help, what steps can people take to help

00:59:16,312 --> 00:59:21,402

themselves or the lives of others around

them or even people they don't know?

00:59:21,402 --> 00:59:23,542

I get this question a lot.

00:59:23,542 --> 00:59:28,772

Like I think someone that's very open

about my recovery, there's a lot of people

00:59:28,772 --> 00:59:30,692

throughout my life who know people who

need help.

00:59:30,692 --> 00:59:34,162

And so they'll come to me and be like,

my...

00:59:34,848 --> 00:59:37,858

friend's little sister needs treatment,

what can I do?

00:59:37,858 --> 00:59:40,648

And like, I think that's its own thing.

00:59:40,648 --> 00:59:45,048

I think my number one piece of advice to

those people who are like, working with

00:59:45,048 --> 00:59:48,798

people who are ready to seek treatment,

get them into treatment.

00:59:48,858 --> 00:59:55,368

And the way to do that really is just pick

a treatment center, point and shoot, maybe

00:59:55,368 --> 00:59:58,998

like look at some Google reviews, but

they're all gonna be mixed.

00:59:59,726 --> 01:00:01,366

and just call an admissions person.

01:00:01,366 --> 01:00:04,366

Because the admissions people are like

trained to make sure that your insurance

01:00:04,366 --> 01:00:05,386

is taken.

01:00:05,386 --> 01:00:08,486

They're trained to make sure that you get

the care that you need.

01:00:09,426 --> 01:00:12,386

I'd say that there's really no reason to

go out of state.

01:00:12,386 --> 01:00:19,606

Most states have pretty, like within their

own state have pretty okay resources

01:00:19,606 --> 01:00:21,756

unless you're going for something more

specific.

01:00:21,756 --> 01:00:25,046

But just get on the phone with an

admissions person and they can point you

01:00:25,046 --> 01:00:26,126

in the right direction.

01:00:26,126 --> 01:00:26,876

That's huge.

01:00:26,876 --> 01:00:29,600

Or like get in my DMs, I'll help.

01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:31,890

Point you in the right direction too.

01:00:31,990 --> 01:00:33,630

And we'll link her Instagram.

01:00:33,630 --> 01:00:35,550

Yeah, link my Instagram.

01:00:36,790 --> 01:00:40,710

And then the other piece too, like what

can people do that just want to support

01:00:40,710 --> 01:00:43,500

and maybe they don't know a ton of

addicts, like that's okay too.

01:00:43,500 --> 01:00:47,110

I think allies to this community are

always so needed.

01:00:47,110 --> 01:00:54,300

I think like carrying Narcan baseline is

something that everyone that considers

01:00:54,300 --> 01:00:57,476

themselves an advocate or an ally to

recovery.

01:00:57,518 --> 01:01:04,298

Do you know places that distribute Narcan

and can we link them as well, Dylan?

01:01:04,338 --> 01:01:07,478

Yeah, Dylan, you can.

01:01:07,698 --> 01:01:12,948

There's a lot of places you can get

Narcan, especially like, I think it's

01:01:12,948 --> 01:01:16,638

September is like National Recovery Month.

01:01:16,638 --> 01:01:18,238

There's like a National Recovery Day too.

01:01:18,238 --> 01:01:24,038

And usually there's events in most towns

and cities that will hand out Naloxone,

01:01:24,038 --> 01:01:25,398

which is Narcan.

01:01:26,158 --> 01:01:31,098

Pretty sure you can order it from either

your state or federal government website

01:01:31,098 --> 01:01:33,158

for free.

01:01:34,358 --> 01:01:37,958

There's a lot, a lot, a lot of places

where you can get Narcan.

01:01:37,958 --> 01:01:41,448

It's becoming a lot more readily

accessible and I'll be happy to send you

01:01:41,448 --> 01:01:45,448

some links, Dylan, to where people can get

it and just keep it in your car, keep it

01:01:45,448 --> 01:01:48,088

in your purse, especially if you're going

to like concerts and shit.

01:01:48,088 --> 01:01:49,158

You just, you never know.

01:01:49,158 --> 01:01:54,558

Like Dylan said, it's good for 10 minutes,

just a pretty quick window, all things

01:01:54,558 --> 01:01:55,534

considered.

01:01:55,534 --> 01:01:57,394

when you're ODing, I'm sure.

01:01:57,394 --> 01:02:01,824

But it's a pretty short window if you're

panicking and looking around for the next

01:02:01,824 --> 01:02:05,054

person around you that has norectal

cancer, just carry it yourself.

01:02:05,714 --> 01:02:11,794

And the other thing is just stay informed

and listen, see how it is affecting you,

01:02:11,794 --> 01:02:15,654

because most people are affected by

addiction in some way.

01:02:15,794 --> 01:02:20,684

Just don't turn a blind eye, because I

think it's so easy if you're not an addict

01:02:20,684 --> 01:02:23,886

to see people suffering from addiction.

01:02:23,886 --> 01:02:29,006

especially people that are like visibly

suffering from addiction, like the

01:02:29,006 --> 01:02:34,366

houseless population, it's so easy to see

them as different.

01:02:34,406 --> 01:02:41,726

But like, and Sharon Dillon can relate to

this too, but like it is vital to my

01:02:41,726 --> 01:02:45,666

recovery and to the fact that I wanna stay

alive, that I don't see myself as any

01:02:45,666 --> 01:02:47,546

different than the people that walk

through our doors.

01:02:47,546 --> 01:02:51,374

I don't see myself as different in any way

from.

01:02:51,374 --> 01:02:56,974

the people that are still suffering from

addiction visibly or otherwise, because

01:02:56,974 --> 01:02:58,094

I'm not different.

01:02:58,094 --> 01:03:00,834

And we're all the same species.

01:03:02,034 --> 01:03:06,754

And whether you're an addict or not,

depending on the model you believe in,

01:03:07,354 --> 01:03:11,354

whether you believe it's genetic, it's

like a matter of chance, really.

01:03:11,354 --> 01:03:16,274

So like exercise compassion and stay as

informed as you can.

01:03:16,414 --> 01:03:19,394

Vote when you can, you know?

01:03:19,694 --> 01:03:20,686

That's all.

01:03:20,686 --> 01:03:21,106

Pretty.

01:03:21,106 --> 01:03:22,766

Who are you voting for?

01:03:22,766 --> 01:03:24,506

Who am I voting for?

01:03:24,506 --> 01:03:26,226

Local, local.

01:03:26,326 --> 01:03:29,686

You can follow me on Instagram and I'll

post my ballot.

01:03:29,686 --> 01:03:32,856

Yeah, follow her Instagram, we're linking

it.

01:03:32,856 --> 01:03:33,766

Yeah.

01:03:33,766 --> 01:03:34,686

Bother her.

01:03:34,686 --> 01:03:35,306

Yeah.

01:03:35,306 --> 01:03:38,146

I'm pretty vocal about my own recovery

too.

01:03:38,146 --> 01:03:42,986

So even if you just like need a dose of

hope every once in a while, I don't post

01:03:42,986 --> 01:03:47,766

as often anymore because I am pretty busy

and happy with my life nowadays.

01:03:48,622 --> 01:03:53,942

but I post a lot about my recovery and my

own milestones and I try to be like a

01:03:53,942 --> 01:03:55,242

beacon of hope for people.

01:03:55,242 --> 01:03:58,422

And I am in recovery from like a lot of

things besides substance use.

01:03:58,422 --> 01:04:03,872

Like I'm in recovery from long -term

mental health disorders and trauma and

01:04:03,872 --> 01:04:05,862

self -harm and eating disorders.

01:04:05,862 --> 01:04:09,682

And most people, those are wrapped up in

one way or another.

01:04:09,682 --> 01:04:12,742

So I talk about all of that on my socials

as well.

01:04:12,742 --> 01:04:17,042

One last question and that's probably the

most important one.

01:04:17,542 --> 01:04:18,720

Are you ready?

01:04:18,734 --> 01:04:20,914

Yeah, is it stupid?

01:04:21,254 --> 01:04:23,154

Why would you say that?

01:04:23,494 --> 01:04:24,920

What's the question?

01:04:26,414 --> 01:04:37,754

Well, would you rather be attacked by 50

duck sized horses or one horse sized duck?

01:04:37,754 --> 01:04:39,514

50 duck sized horses.

01:04:39,514 --> 01:04:41,054

Horses are not aggressive.

01:04:41,054 --> 01:04:44,654

Ducks are aggressive and it doesn't need

to be the size of a horse.

01:04:44,654 --> 01:04:46,154

I said attacked.

01:04:48,274 --> 01:04:51,634

I stand by my answer.

01:04:51,634 --> 01:04:52,654

OK.

01:04:53,294 --> 01:04:54,394

Fair enough.

01:04:54,754 --> 01:04:56,206

That's all I have.

01:04:56,206 --> 01:04:57,186

They are shy.

01:04:57,186 --> 01:04:58,086

They're skittish.

01:04:58,086 --> 01:04:58,786

Yeah.

01:04:58,786 --> 01:05:00,206

So if one freaks out...

01:05:00,206 --> 01:05:01,446

are too.

01:05:01,446 --> 01:05:03,526

Ducks aren't skittish.

01:05:03,526 --> 01:05:06,026

Ducks are very aggressive.

01:05:06,026 --> 01:05:09,996

Yeah, I have been attacked by a goose, so

I'm speaking from a place of trauma on

01:05:09,996 --> 01:05:10,826

that one.

01:05:10,826 --> 01:05:11,406

All right.

01:05:11,406 --> 01:05:12,826

Well, thanks, Izzy.

01:05:12,826 --> 01:05:13,856

Appreciate you.

01:05:13,856 --> 01:05:14,816

Thank you so much.

01:05:14,816 --> 01:05:16,246

Thank you guys.

01:05:16,746 --> 01:05:20,046

You can find our links and other resources

in our show notes.

01:05:20,046 --> 01:05:23,846

We'll link Isabelle's Instagram so you can

tell her how wrong she is about horse

01:05:23,846 --> 01:05:25,106

-sized ducks.

01:05:25,230 --> 01:05:30,040

And if you want to hear us interview a

nonprofit or an individual that you think

01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:35,510

is doing good work, you can shoot us an

email at bloomscrollingpodcast at gmail

01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:41,090

.com or DM us on Instagram at

bloomscrollingpodcast.

01:05:41,170 --> 01:05:46,370

This podcast is brought to you by Off Meta

Media and it's edited and produced by me,

01:05:46,370 --> 01:05:48,730

Dylan Beresford and Monica Warrens.

01:05:48,730 --> 01:05:52,850

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at

bloomscrollingpodcast.

01:05:53,230 --> 01:05:54,170

Thank you.

01:05:54,170 --> 01:05:55,030

Thanks.

01:05:55,030 --> 01:05:55,910

Bye.

01:05:55,970 --> 01:05:56,650

Bye.

01:05:56,650 --> 01:05:57,370

Bye.

01:05:57,370 --> 01:05:58,270

We're done.

01:05:58,270 --> 01:05:58,700

Yeah.

01:05:58,700 --> 01:05:59,290

We're done.

01:05:59,290 --> 01:06:00,470

Yeah.

01:06:00,770 --> 01:06:03,030

This machine kills fascists.

01:06:03,590 --> 01:06:06,510

There's, um, there's like five.

01:06:06,510 --> 01:06:10,450

Uh, there's a little sticker over here.

01:06:10,450 --> 01:06:11,720

There was a patch.

01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:14,970

He had like this, this fabric kills

fascists.

01:06:14,970 --> 01:06:18,926

Um, the last time that I relapsed,

01:06:18,926 --> 01:06:23,546

I called Dylan over and I was blackout

drunk and I was a total asshole.

01:06:23,546 --> 01:06:29,266

And then I got him a little cactus and I

was like, this cacti kills fascists.

01:06:29,706 --> 01:06:29,896

So.

01:06:29,896 --> 01:06:32,386

Cacti's get a apology cactus.

01:06:32,386 --> 01:06:33,306

You're gonna get.