As with all of our episodes, the conversation ranged across many topics.

From mental health, walking what you preach, community, hope, and more.

Bands mentioned:

Domesticatrix and the Replicants

Louder Transition Collective

Merc

No time Records

Impermanence

Hong Kong fuck you

Ramones

World Peace

David Bowie

and many others

For more, visit The Alabama Take site.

Hello, welcome to this episode of Funk Love and Compassion. On this episode, we have Joey with us from the band Or Else, based out of Birmingham mostly.

Right.

And yeah, so we'll get into conversation with him. And it was second, first housekeeping stuff. As always, if you like what I do, jump on over to the Alabama take.

That's like the family of podcasts I belong to. They do a bunch of different podcasts on pop culture stuff, everything from music to books to TV and sports.

So if you like us like that stuff, jump over there. Check that out. I also do another podcast with my son. It's called Hidden Creatures. It's about, like the mcfap universe.

And mcfab stands for mythical cryptid, fairy, alien and paranormal. So if you're into like that weird stuff, you can jump on over there too and check that out. My son would be super stoked if you did that.

And I would also be thankful. And then lastly, as always, I have dogs, I have chickens. You'll probably hear them. That was that said. That's. We will. We'll go into the interview.

Thank you. So, Joey, I gave you a very short introduction. Would you like to introduce yourself further?

Sure. My name is Joey. As previously stated, I play in the band Or Else. I am the vocalist for Or Else. I live in Birmingham. Born and raised in Birmingham.

But my family prior to my generation, myself and my sister were from all over. From North Carolina, from Connecticut, New York, in Mississippi.

So have influences from all over the place, both cultural and, you know, just generally speaking.

And Or Else has only been a band for almost a couple years now, and we've been a bunch of shows and super stoked on it and super appreciate you both for having us and letting us. Sorry, I'm saying us like it's more than one of us. There's me tonight. But I appreciate you having me on to be able to share, so thanks so much.

No, definitely. And I appreciate you coming on. Okay, so let's start with history. Do you remember.

And you can define all my questions however you want to, but this one in particular, because to me, like, I use the term punk rock a lot or punk a lot, and punk is a very large umbrella for me, very inclusive umbrella. So define it however you wish. But do you remember the first punk song you ever heard?

Oh, I don't know that I could tell you exactly the moment when I first heard punk, but I can say that the first band that I ever fell in love with there was a punk band that the band I heard and that I Like was my entry point, my gateway, the Ramones. And to this very day still remains one of my very, very favorite bands of all times.

They're from Flushing, New York, which was where my dad's northern family was from. So I just felt that kinship to them as well. So it was just always just kind of like. I love the music. The guys seem awesome.

They so iconic in their stripped down way, both their sound and just how they carry themselves. And they kind of reminded me of my dad a little bit with his accent and stuff.

So it's fell in love with them immediately, head over heels and was listening to him today. So, yeah, that was kind of my entry point. And everything else kind of punk wise, came from, sprung from that. Yeah.

So there are two bands that I can think of that regardless of where you are, sort of underneath the umbrella that you can play. And the vast majority of people will be okay with. And it's the Ramones and Motorhead.

Oh, absolutely.

You'd be hanging out with a bunch of metal kids and like putting a Ramones album and they'll be fine with it. Or put on Motorhead and they're gonna be fine with it.

Or you can be hanging out with a bunch of punk kids and putting Ramones or Motorhead and they're gonna be cool with it.

Absolutely.

Yeah. It's just like those two. Well, and obviously those two bands also loved each other. But yeah, those two bands just seem to be cross the spectrum.

Like approved.

Right.

So from the Ramones. Do you remember how old you were when.

Oh boy, I'm trying to remember. I know I first saw him on a performance on television. I might have been 10, 11 or 12. And I remember.

I don't think it was my first time being introduced to them, but I do remember seeing Rock and Roll High School and I believe it was on Up All Night with Rhonda Shearer. So don't anybody Google that because that is a huge reveal for my age. But I think it was on up all nights in Rock and Roll High School.

I just fell head over heels in love with these weirdos. And they're super catchy tunes. So I think it was somewhere in those pre teen years, the double digits, but not quite a teenager.

Yeah, yeah, I want to say. Yeah, that's probably, you know, when I remember them as well. Like that 10, 11, 12 year old.

And like I have a very vivid memory of Ramones being on a Scooby Doo cartoon.

Right.

And I can like, I can rings a bell. I can picture myself sitting down Watching Saturday morning cartoons and watching Scooby Doo and the Ramones were on it.

I have talked to other people and they're like, if we don't recognize at all. I've tried to find the episode. I have not been able to find the episode, but I have a very vivid memory.

Watching television one Saturday morning and seeing the Ramones on Scooby Doo. I have no proof that that ever really happened, but it's in my memory that it did.

So I'm going to just stick with my memory and assume that it was true.

Yeah, yeah. Hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

So, so do you remember then? So 11, 12 years old.

How long was it, do you, if you remember from Ramones to sort of realizing that there was a bigger world of like, punk rocked them?

Well, I still to this day just have always been drawn to bands that are. People might say are unusual or weird or whatever.

Just have an off the wall kind of sound that's aggressive, but maybe not so aggressive that it would fall into the metal territor, but be a little bit of a weird sound. I remember being exposed to full disclosure. I started life very much, and still am to, to a large degree, a metal kid.

Love punk, love Misfits, love Black Flag. But my growing into experiencing more punk almost took a back seat because I experienced Ramones.

I discovered Misfits, Metallica cover records, and so then went and started listening to all that and checking all that out. And so for me it was a bit more of a slow roller.

Because once I heard something as heavy as is Black Sabbath, that was just absolutely captured my attention and my heart. And so while I was growing in my knowledge of punk rock, I was. It was very much kind of the sidecar experience for me personally.

And I was more of a metal guy going back to the weirder sounding bands. Like, even for me, like when I first heard the first couple of songs by Faith no More that I heard, like We Care a Lot, that sort of thing.

I was like, this isn't metal, but it's aggressive. But I don't think you'd call it punk rock. But then it was one of those bands like them, oh, and it goes without saying, I discovered Dead Milk Men.

And I did. My brain did not immediately say, like, this is punk rock.

It was more in that, oh, it's the late 80s, early 90s, this is alternative nation stuff that I'm hearing. But I started putting it all together, being like, oh no, yeah, that's more that slots in that category as well.

I just knew it was something not metal, not rock. And so anything unusual to me kind of slotted in the punk side of the equations. Gotcha.

Yeah. And for me, like I said earlier, my punk rock umbrella is very large.

And I know this is very sacrilegious for some people, but, like, metal falls under my punk rock umbrella.

Okay.

Yeah. And for me, it's not necessarily like the music more as like the attitude, the culture, the stuff like that. Right.

So talking about, like, the communities that form the DIY culture that forms the. The, like the. The counterculture, being the outcast, stuff like that, like, to me, that's.

So when I say punk rock is more the culture, those communities, those building blocks, versus, like, the music, you know.

Right.

So. And that's why sort of I group metal under my, like, punk umbrella.

Oh, well, if the umbrella is that broad, then yeah, absolutely. And for me, I just know, do I like it or do I not like it? And so really, I wasn't really in high school.

It became a thing with the advent of Nirvana and that sort of thing where it seemed like it needed to be more compartmentalized in the way people were speaking about it. But to me, it was just like, it could be the Dead Milkman, it could be Black Flag, it could be Metallica, Slayer. To me, that's all.

Right.

I see the connective tissue between all those. Or at least for me, it's just what I fell in love with.

Right. Yeah, and me as well. So, like, when I got started in music, my oldest sister's eight years older than I am.

She graduated high school in the mid-80s and you know, her boyfriends were all into like, 80s metal, but not necessarily hair metal. So they weren't listening to, like, movies and stuff like that. They were listening to, you know, Iron Maiden and Cinderella and.

Right.

You know, more stuff along that. So, like, that's the first music I got into. Anthrax, Metallica, Megadeth, you know, stuff like that.

And that's how I found punk music was through that metal introduction.

Right.

But to me, like, anybody who's willing to load into a van and drive across the country and sleep on strangers floors and play a show at a garage to five people and like, totally stoked on it.

Yeah.

We're all in it together.

Yeah, absolutely.

So regardless of what label we put on ourselves, those foundational building blocks, they're all the same.

Yeah, I feel you in that regard. Yeah, that's definitely. For me, it just kind of all mushes together. Like, I mean, how. You know, the.

Between Slayers, you know, doing the D beat, the Damned doing it. To me, this is all the same connective tissue. To me, it's just what you. What you're piling up on top of it.

And to me, the beautiful thing about really about punk rock that leaves that freedom there is that it could be very much the. Is the just the trappings that you put on top of those. Those foundational elements.

So that was definitely, you know, kind of the same thing you're talking about for me. Is that. Is it aggressive, is it fast? You know, then I like it, you know.

Right. Well. And if you talk a lot of those old metal dudes or the old punk dudes, and I'm saying dudes. But people are involved in the scene, right? Right.

They're all listening to it. Right? All the metal people.

They were all listening to Black Flag and the Misfits and all the punk kids are all listening to Metallica and Anthrax and Motorhead. It. Croesion of Conformity. They're another band that crosses the boundary a lot. Biohazard, you know, thank God.

Thank God for crossover thrash. It kind of like, in that moment, it took all the things that I loved and kind of like, formed it in a more cogent way.

And even now when you hear a newer band on the scene and they're more like crossover thrash or whatever, like, this is awesome. It's all DRI to me, you know.

Right. So, yeah, dri another cross suicidal. You know, all those bands are like.

You know, they might lean more one way than the other, but it's, you know, they're all all over the place.

Yeah. And just having that freedom to move in and out without being like, oh, it can't be this. Cause it has to be more that. Or it has to be this.

And we've experienced a little bit that ourselves recently. We had somebody that booked us, brought us out to play. Sweetheart.

Totally took great care of us, gave us a lot of awesome hookups, but funnily enough, go unnamed. But gave us a lot of great advice, but also said, well, hey, you need to change your sound to be X, Y and Z.

And that'll push you more into this category than this category and you may find more success. And, you know, we talked about it all the way back from that show.

It was about six hours out of town and we just kind of came to the conclusion like we might could find more success if we changed our sound to be this or that or. But ultimately we're just like, what does Joey Ramon say? Nothing more punk than being yourself.

I would rather embrace that and be us, win, lose or draw than change something intentionally that's not in our heart to do. That doesn't just naturally occur for us to go out and change something, to try and seek acceptance or to do better in this and that and whatever.

Even though it would still technically fall kind of in that same scene and genre umbrella, it's just like, I don't know. I think I'd just rather ride with what we've got.

Yeah, yeah. We get similar feedback quite a bit. When we started our band, we didn't sit down and say, okay, we want to be this.

Like, this is what we want our sound to be. Each of us just brought our own influences and the sound is what the sound is.

Yeah.

But we often get the feedback that we can't get booked with the hardcore shows because we're too punk rock, and we can't get booked with the punk shows because we're too hardcore.

Right.

I was like, wow, why'd you have to book all of one kind of band?

Right. Right. You know, I ran venues for years and years, and to this day, when I get the rare occasion to book a show from scratch, it's going to be.

Honestly, I could say it with platitudes like, there's going to be something for everybody. There's going to be this or that. In reality, I don't want to hear the same thing five times in a row.

Yeah, me neither.

I personally, when I book shows, hopefully everybody else gets off on it as well, But I don't want to hear another band that sounds just like my band. I love mixed bills. I would rather play with a hemo band, a punk band, a grindcore band, something else and something else. Give me a little variety.

It's the spice of life, as they say.

Yeah, no, I'm with you. I mean, whenever I book a show, I try to get as mixed bill as possible.

Right.

I also try to get the bands to be as representative as possible.

Right.

Not just of genres, but with the people making up the band. Because, like you said, see the same four or five guys playing the same music five times in a row, that's boring.

So at what do you remember, at what point in time that you realized there was like a greater, like, scene?

I remember seeing that. I think before I ever went to my first show locally, I think I saw that. Is it End of Western Civilization Part 2, the Punk Rock one?

Yeah.

And I saw that and I Was like, oh, this is like beyond people making music. Like, this is a whole, like lifestyle and everything. And that really captured my imagination.

And then when I was in high school and, you know, Meat Puppets and again, Dead Milk man and Nirvana and all those types of bands are starting to pop off. The more, you know, a little more punk coated bands in the alterna scene. There's a lot of that kind of band popping up around me.

And so I was just a young goofy kid that just played guitar his bedroom.

So I started hearing about these shows in high school and I started going to them and that's when I started like, it got the actual first person experience. Like, oh man. Like there's people who live and die by this stuff. It's.

It just really was a beautiful thing because you met people that like the same stuff that you did.

And I was a husky boy growing up, so I was a chubby, glasses wearing, dorky kid who had weird taste in music and was still playing with his action figures long after everybody else had stopped. But I found a place where I met these cats who like the same kind of music and elements thereof.

And a lot of them still openly loved and talked about their GI Joes or Star wars toys or whatever. And so I just. It was just a very sweet spot for me. So right around that time, I would say, probably, yeah, freshman year of high school.

So what is that trying to do with 14, 15 somewhere?

Yeah, is where I started to realize, like, oh, this is like, there's a wider world even in my little backwards neck of the woods and, you know, Birmingham, Alabama. And it was popping off, man, People were really having a good time and putting on some awesome shows.

And I still like some of the bands from back then.

Do you remember the first local show you went to?

A friend of my parents, he was a. He was a. I think he would just spell bad for me, being that dorky kid that I was talking about before. So he's a friend of my parents.

He was like, hey, I heard about this show at the Homewood Armory. Let's. Would you be interested in going? I was like, oh, yes, for the love of God, yes, please, let's pack up and go. And it was weird.

You know, we went. It was. I can still see two or three of the bands in my mind's eye.

Don't know who any of those bands were at this point, but we went and everybody, I guess because people were getting a little too rowdy right before we got there. We showed up late, you know, punk punctuality and showed up a little late.

And so everybody had to sit down, crisscross applesauce on the floor and watch the bands play. But I sat there absolutely enthralled, you know, because it was like, hey, cool, you know, festival seating.

Nobody's gonna be standing in front of me, you know, couldn't drive myself yet. That was probably like, I want to say that was eighth grade.

So somewhere between eighth grade and freshman year of high school, that was the very first opening. And then meeting those people and starting to hear about those shows and making connects that way in the wider scene.

Then you'd start getting, you know, flyers and you'd see and you start looking for the place, the music stores and stuff, which is why I still fly our music stores all the time. Whenever we have a local show or whatever, I would go to the local music store, I'd see flyers for the local indie show, you know, $2 and a.

A can of food or something like that. And, you know, go out and check it out. And so that's kind of where it all popped off for me. God bless that guy. His name was Patrick.

A friend of my parents and a friend of me as well.

But I mean, like, you know, he was my parents friend who I think just took pity on me because my parents were never gonna, yeah, go take me to that, or offer to take me to that or anything like that. So it was very cool of him.

You know, it's.

I don't know.

I get very sentimental over, like, introductions. Do you recall, like, how it made you feel?

I remember feeling distinctly at that very first show. I just remember thinking, like, these kids are not much older than me and they're out here doing it.

I thought, well, technical standing wise as a musician, as a somebody been playing guitar at that point, five years or whatever. I got my first guitar, like eight or nine or something like that. I feel like if I could find some other cats to play with, like, I could do this too.

And at the point I didn't care what sound was, I just wanted to get out. That's the moment when it all popped for me. Like, I want to play shows, I want to write music so that we can play shows.

I want to be in a band so we can write music to play shows. To me, it's. Shows have always been the goal and everything else is a means to an end to play shows.

But the next couple of shows I went to after that were in local warehouse shows that were not at the Armory. And at the time it was you know, just like the slam dancing, push pitting kind of thing.

Not so much the hardcore dancing like we have now, that's, you know, made its way down here from the Northeast so much. But we. I remember the overwhelming feeling.

And I tell this to all the people I'm in bands with and all the people that I work with and get the chance to. I remember it being kind of scary and how absolutely addictively enthralling it was that there was nothing.

Well, I mean, the areas that we're going to these CD shows in were a little bit sketch, not afraid for my life, but people are just banging into each other with abandon and the music's loud and there's older kids here, and so that's a little intimidating. But that all being said, I don't want it to come off.

Like I ever want anyone to feel intimidated or scared, but more like, do you love going on roller coasters? Do you love horror movies? I love those things too.

And it's because even to this day, anytime I can get a little like, oh, I don't know that we're percent safe here, gives me a little something. And it makes those memories and experiences sticking to my brain better.

And so as I got older and played a ton of shows and was in a bunch of bands and started booking shows and ran a bunch of shows and did all that sort of thing, rarely did I ever get that like, ooh, this is a little scary. This is a little sketchy.

But whenever it did, it seemed like it'd be every couple years something would happen or a show would be starting to get a little too bonkers, or the room was too small and there was way too many people to be inside of it, but everybody was just vibing to the tunes. Like, it's like, okay, there's not real danger here, but it's just like that kinetic energy. Yeah, it's like o. Like, all right, all right.

Yeah, there's. There's just something in the air.

Like being around an animal. You're not entirely sure if it's tame for you to be around, so you're being respectful to it, but at the same time it might just turn on you.

Yeah.

So that kind of. So like I said, that's not to try to be gatekeeper or want people to feel unsafe. It's more of just enjoyable level of unpredictability. Yeah, that's.

I really enjoy that.

No, I, I think I agree with you. And my theory is for those of us who've stayed with it as long as we have, right?

Is something happened in our soul at one of those first couple of shows. Like, something got switched in our soul. And, you know, because I'm gonna sort of paraphrase what you said and also make it for me too.

But, you know, we go in not belonging, not feeling like we belong anywhere, you know, just this oddball outcast. And we walk in and we're like, holy hell, I'm not the only oddball outcast. There's other oddball outcasts. And there is not only just isn't there.

There's others. There's a lot of us, right?

And we're all these oddball outcasts together that play with toys, that listen to this music no one else listens to that has this untapped energy inside of us that we don't know what to deal with. We don't know how to deal with. And, like, I see these people on the stage, and they're not really that good. And so I can do it, too.

Like, right?

Like, so I don't have to be the super rock star to get on stage. Like, I can just get upstage and, like, jump around and make noise. And, like, people are gonna dig it, right?

And people are gonna, like, celebrate me being an oddball outcast. Hell, yeah. Like, sign me up. Oh, right.

Absolutely.

And it is this air of unpredictability and this air of, for lack of a better term, like, aggressive energy. Right, Right.

And it's there because, you know, when we're younger, we don't have the tools to deal appropriately with everything we're feeling, right?

And everything we're dealing with, you know, whether that's not fitting in, whether it's being made fun of for not fitting in, for, you know, having a messed up family situation and not knowing how to deal with it, to being bullied, to being an outcast, to being whatever, right? And now we're in a place, and it's like all these other people are dealing with the exact same. I am.

And we can get out all of this energy that we don't have another form to get out. And everybody's cool with it, right? But, like. But we're not purposely trying to hurt each other. It's like we were.

Like, we have this unspoken agreement, right, that we're gonna. We're gonna knock into each other, we're gonna punch each other. We're gonna. But if one of us falls down, we're picking. We're picking them up, right?

If one of us gets hurt, we're gonna take care of them, you know, and for me, you know, I pretty much grew up in, like, the DC hardcore scene, and I was going to punk shows and stuff like that, but D.C. arcore was where it was at for me, and people danced hard. It wasn't uncommon to see a gun on the dance floor.

Oh, yeah.

And it wasn't uncommon for there to be serious fights outside of the show.

Right.

But what I don't remember, and this could just be because I'm.

I'm sort of, you know, have this nostalgia, like I said, was like, if you were gonna dance, you could dance as hard as you wanted to dance, but you were in the middle dancing. Like, you weren't targeting people on the side.

Right.

And I realize that, you know, that might be a controversial opinion, but, I mean, I think that's. I think it's like, we're there because we've been bullied, we've been targeted, we've been, you know, all this stuff.

Right.

And now you're showing up and doing the exact same thing.

Right.

Like that. That's, to me, like, if you want to dance, dance. Like, get in the middle and dance as hard as you want with the other people that want to dance.

Yeah.

But once you start targeting people that are just like, want to be there, enjoy the music and don't want to dance.

Yeah.

You're no better than the reason why you're here.

Right.

I mean, that's my opinion. And not everybody agrees with me, and I'm okay with that.

And. And not to just be like, you know, what do you call it? A couple old, old heads venting.

But one more thing that occurred to me real quick before we leave that topic.

Yeah.

When I saw those kids playing at the shows, whether they be a band on tour or whatever, all these young people that were not much older than me, I came. Being in the South, I came from a pretty conservative socially and politically and religiously.

And when I saw those kids playing and, you know, I just thought, oh, I don't. Not only do I not have to ask permission to do that, I just have to find enough comrades who are into doing it with me.

It would be antithetical to request permission or, you know, seek permissiveness from somebody to do this sort of thing.

Right.

So. But Pylon.

Yeah.

I know it's not the coolest thing in the world, but I miss push pits. I really do. I'm okay with people doing the hardcore dancing, too. I think it's awesome. When I grew up with it and you saw the.

You Know, the gas mask and the picking up change and the, you know, all that sort of thing. I thought it was cool too.

I'm like, cool, like, yeah, if the pit opens up and somebody wants to do their thing, or if they're just doing off to the side, that's awesome. I love it. Yeah.

This crowd killing thing, at the risk of alienating anybody or most popular my band could be or whatever, I would rather stand up and say I detest crowd killing, especially in specifically, you know, just going after people on the edge.

The whole point of there being an edge to the crowd is that they're trying to give you all the room that you want to express yourself and to do all this sort of thing and haven't seen people crowd kill wearing hockey masks. I'm like, I don't want to be. I don't know if it's. Whatever it is. I just think it's super weak sauce. I'll leave it at that. I think it's totally gross.

Accidents will happen, and that's part of what happens. Exactly like you were explaining and detailing in your experience.

But I don't know, the intentional targeting, to me, it just like you said, it's building in. It's almost like a physical style of gatekeeping the scene.

It bums me out for young people in the scene to see that sort of thing because, like, it was always and still is my goal that it doesn't matter how cool somebody thinks my band is or whatever else, or somebody likes something about the shirt that I'm wearing or whatever. I just want to chop it up with that person and just hang out with them.

And the potentially nerdier or goofier or more outcast the better, because that's what I experienced that breeds life into me at that age.

And in those experiences, and now, make no mistake, there's an element of gatekeeping that I do agree with, which is making sure that people don't come in and say awful, horrible, alienating things.

But at the same time, you know, making it any more difficult putting any more barrier to entry than has already been experienced by somebody who has gotten in, know, scraped their money together, gotten a ride, gotten down there. Their parents may not even know they're out of the house, right. To come to the show.

I'm like, any other barrier to entry beyond everything with the person map all that they may have gone through to be here. Like, I'm just 100% against it. It's one thing if people want to be shitty and snobby or whatever.

You're not cool enough or blah blah, blah, I think that sucks too. But like trying to make people feel like the outcast don't scene who's very founding is trying to be inclusive and welcoming of all types of people.

Like, we've missed the point, right? We've missed the point. Yeah.

No, I agree with you. I wouldn't go back to a point you hit on the first about sort of asking permission to do that.

And for me, just being part of this scene is the permission. Right, right.

And whether that's permission to be in a band, whether that's a permission to be a photographer, to be a dancer, to make a zine, to be an artist, to create whatever you want to create, however you want to create it, just being part of the scene gives you that permission. Right? So you don't have to ask anybody.

Right.

Because and not only does it give you the permission, it's almost expected.

Right.

And I think a certain level of gatekeeping is necessary. But I use that term gatekeeping tentatively. Right. Because when we play and when I put on shows, it's like, look, everybody's welcome.

I don't care who you are. Everybody's welcome.

Right.

I don't care how you identify. I don't care who you love, I don't care what color you are, I don't care what's between your legs, what's up between your legs.

I don't care, like show up, you are welcome, you're, you know, you are valued. Right. But what's not welcome is people who don't value that, you know.

Yeah. And that's. I'm on the same tip, like as long as no one's being made to feel less than or ostracized or targeted in some way.

Yeah, that's, that's the beginning and ending of that short book for me is that, you know, I'm not going to put up with people feeling, you know, being put upon, you know.

And as much as we speak against right wing ideologies in our music or say anything from the stage, you know, we are very anti fascist and that sort of thing.

If somebody comes there, we always make a point to say, you know, we say, you know, fuck and Zionism, fuck the, the maga crap, the ICE crap, fuck all that stuff. But we always made the point to say, but notice we didn't say fuck any one person.

If you feel like those things are right, if you in your heart are questioning or are not sure, we don't want to send you away.

If you're questioning or thinking or considering how other people might feel, we'd rather you stay here, not ostracize anybody in doing so, but hear these messages and maybe learn and consider a different point of view. I don't want to send people away. I want to send ideologies away that will be wrongful to people.

So I try to always make that point very clear, that we're not saying you, we're saying those ideas.

And if you think those ideas are the way to be, we encourage you to, you know, in a quiet moment, to consider how you would feel if any of that was being pointed back at you, and then maybe reconsider your stand or your take on those sorts of topics. So I know that's a fine line. I'm certainly not wanting to welcome any kind of like, yeah, hateful ideologies.

But at the same time, I do want people to learn and grow. Punk rock changed in metal and hardcore, and all this changed a lot about how I think about life and the world. And it'll open my mind up.

Years before, it was the way to be in the least, in the way we joked in the greater Zeitgeist and the kinds of words we said or that sort of thing. Like, years before any of that, I knew that gay people were just gay people. What's the big deal? Like, they're not a joke. They're not a punchline.

They're not anybody to be feared. They're not anybody to be taken advantage of or abused. And that just never was, you know, a thing for me.

Right.

So. And I thank punk rock a whole lot for helping me to form in those embryonic years, you know, embryonic brain years.

The right point of view on those sorts of things and topics.

Yeah, no, definitely. Well, you know, and going back to ideologies, right, It's. I mean, you can trace it back to, you know, like, Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger, Right.

Like, you know, on their guitars and banjos. This machine kills fascism. Right, Whatever. Right. Pete Seeger never picked up a gun, went out and killed a fascist. Right.

The way he killed and combated fascism was through his music and through his empathy and through his compassion. Right, Right. That's how he fought injustice. It wasn't with a gun. It wasn't with a. Whatever. It wasn't violent, right? It was, yeah.

If you want to come and listen with everybody else, come and listen with everybody else. Maybe you'll pick something up.

Right, Right.

But if you're gonna come and be. Sorry, I interrupted you.

No, you're Right, Go ahead.

You know, but if you want to come and be an. Well, we can handle that, too.

All right.

Like, we would much prefer to handle everything with our hearts.

Right. You know, open hands and open hearts.

But I was talking to one of the other people I interviewed a couple weeks ago about this, and he was saying, I don't understand how you can say people are safe at your show. It's just like, you know, I don't even feel safe. And I said, well, I can't guarantee safety. That's not something I can guarantee.

But what I can guarantee is that when people come and see us or when they come to my shows, they're going to be accepted for who they are. They will be valued, and if anybody tries to take that away from them at our show, they will be defended.

Right.

You know, but I can't. I can't control who walks through the door and how they act.

Right, exactly. You know, not any more than you can in any other setting.

You can just control what I can control and be as accepting and compassionate empathetic as I can be and let them know that, hey, you know, not only do we have your back, but, like, you can get behind us if need be.

Right.

And that's not always verbalized.

Right.

And I. I just think that's an important thing to verbalize. I completely agree, but no, like, I want.

I want people who don't agree with me to show up, right, and listen and maybe learn something and maybe walk away with, you know, something in their brain that'll tug on them for a while.

Absolutely, absolutely. And to dovetail with something that you were just saying.

Please.

It's when Covid ended and it seemed like everybody got super excited about going to shows again and old bands reforming, which a lot of that happened, myself included. One of my old hardcore bands reformed and we were playing shows. That's something I had noticed, and I'm sure it's already always been there.

But I guess maybe having had that period of enforced quietness from the not being able to go to shows and stuff for a couple of years, I just think.

And I don't want to point anybody's toes in terms of their creativity, but I do take great issue, again, not calling any names, because this has been done by some artists and some acts that I think are incredible. I love their music and I consider them friends, but we've had these discussions behind closed doors that the encouraging or inciting people.

I'm not even talking.

I'm talking about the band that gets up there and says, I'm all for saying you have a problem with the police state or whatever, but getting up there and trying to incite the young people or whomever might be listening to your band to act some violence or whatever towards anyone, whether it be a politician or police officer or anybody else, short of a few special classes of people, which to me that kind of just sit next down to pedophiles and that sort of thing.

But short of that group, I really do not like the idea of people getting on stage, getting on microphones, seeming really cool, playing these super dope ass tunes and then in that moment encouraging people to go out. Whether it's to sound cool or hard, or whether it's because you really truly feel this way.

If you want to preach violence against the police or whomever, it's to me it's mad week to try tell other people to do it.

If you feel that strongly about it, to get up here in front of all these people and talk about it, you should be the one going and doing that thing, not try trying. What's the difference between that and Charles Manson? What's the difference between that and some skinhead guy?

Which has happened a lot here in the 90s in Birmingham, Alabama.

These older skinhead Nazi guys gathering up all these disaffected young men and then encouraging them to go out and do these acts of hate and violence against minority groups. They stand back and no, I didn't do anything. They never took take the fall for it.

I think that's super weak and I think that's something we all need to be super careful about included. Our music is loud and angry and all that sort of thing. But honestly, the original name of our band was Kindness or Else. It didn't seem like.

It seemed too like too many words and too many syllables. So we just dropped it to or else. But honestly, that is our point of view is that I feel like sometimes love can be an abused term.

Because for a lot of people love is earned and it's conditional. And I understand that to me kindness is just like a debt we owe everybody else.

Just holding the door for a little old lady or helping somebody put something heavy in their car if they look like they're struggling under that burden or something to that effect. So I don't mean to go on a long tangent about it. No, it's all good. I try never to let myself float over into.

Especially between songs and stuff like that. Stay anything offhanded that would sound like I was trying to encourage anyone to enact a violence. If somebody wants to go out and do Luigi Mangione.

Now, I, maybe it's hypocritical because I, I didn't shed a tear when that happened. You know, I think there's violence being done at a corporate level, on a societal level.

And it certainly did squelch some of that for a while when he went out. And did we try to encourage people to be.

If they're going to be disobedient, be like the guy that burned down the toilet paper warehouse in California. You know, that's honestly the kind of resistance I'm super stoked about is people going out, you know, doing that sort of thing instead of, you know.

Cause these big wigs, they're people too.

And hopefully they can learn something in their minds, be changed maybe by one of their young kids, each of them, and training them up or something like that. So it's always the battle for the hearts and minds. But at the same time, like, I'm also not going to shed a tear. Right. For that sort of thing either.

So.

Yeah, well, I think I mostly agree with you. It doesn't matter if I agree with you or not. Like that's how you feel.

Right. I want to hear your thoughts on it.

But for me, I don't want to hear somebody telling me to punch Nazis that's never punched a Nazi.

There you go.

Right. I don't want to listen to somebody telling me to go out and assault police officers who's never assaulted a police officer. Right, right.

I don't want somebody to tell me to go and burn a warehouse down that's never burnt a warehouse.

Right.

Like, if you want me to do it, like, have you, have you done it?

Yeah. Let's go then. Let's go. Yeah, let's go together. Right.

And so me, like, I consider myself to be a pacifist.

Right. With an assist somebody's face.

Right. Well, with an emphasis on the fist. Right. Preach love, preach acceptance, preach tolerance.

Right.

But also defend the people who need to be defended.

Absolutely.

Right. But it's not leading with the fist. It's not leading with violence, it's leading with your heart.

Absolutely.

And there's a difference because like, I will talk to somebody all day rather than like have to get physical. I will talk to you all day and all night. I'm old, like, you know, I just don't want to do that nonsense anymore.

Right.

But if it comes to it, it's going to come to it.

Right.

But I would much rather exhaust every other avenue first Right. And most of the times, vast majority of the time, it doesn't come to it because we can take care of it in different ways.

Right.

But I'm also not going to go out there and tell people to, you know, whatever.

Yeah.

You know.

Well, I think that's definitely a healthy way to look at it. Like, don't suggest people do things that you're not either willing, able or have already done yourself.

And then secondarily, I'm in total agreement with you in regards to self defense. I don't ever want to be a starter. I don't want to be somebody that provokes anybody to violence.

But at the same time, I question myself on a regular basis. Like, even though I know it would probably cost me my life or at least my freedom, but I can't really tell you what I would have done in that moment.

But I question myself all the time.

If I've been one of those people with a camera phone standing next to George Floyd when the cops were on his neck, like, would I have had the chutzpah, the guts then, you know, intestinal fortitude to knock, at least knock that cop off of his neck so at least they'd at least have to get back on top of him to do the horrible thing that they did that day.

And so in terms of being one who says to him, perfectly fine with taking the action in self defense of oneself or someone else being put upon, like, oh man, that's a tough call because, you know, that's a judge, jury and executioner moment that you're experiencing right there, you know. Right. And they've already showed their compunction to kill.

Well, pretty early on for me, one of my friends when I was pretty young basically told me, he said, never carry something you're not willing to use. So I grew up rough. He's like, look, if you're not willing to use a gun or deal with the consequences, don't carry one.

Right.

You know, if you're not willing to use a knife and deal with those consequences, don't carry one. Never carry something you're not willing to use.

Right.

You know, and with that, I think words fall into that category too.

Right.

You know, like what we were just saying. Don't, don't tell people. Do something you're not willing to do. But also going to your thing. Yeah, that I think we'd all like to believe.

Like, yeah, I would have stepped in and stopped that from happening. Right, right. I think most of us would like, would like to believe that, but believing that and wanting to do that and being in this situation.

Right.

And everything else that's going on is different. And it's hard to. For me, it's hard to judge people that were there when I wasn't.

Right.

Because.

And I'm certainly not trying to pass judgment on the folks that were there. I just use it as a thought experiment.

Yeah. I'm not saying you were right, but it's. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think for most of us.

Okay.

Yeah.

You know, we would have done that, but, yeah, I think it's hard to say what we would do in a situation that we weren't in, because we don't have, like, we're able to say that from a place of comfort.

Right.

Versus a place of everything else that was going on.

Right, Right.

So during the BLM demonstrations and all that, I have a buddy who owns an ice cream store in Richmond, Virginia. The protests were going on on the street. His ice cream shop is on.

Right.

And he made his decision to stay open, and not just stay open, but basically to make his ice cream parlor into a field hospital.

So, like, you know, he and a couple other my friends, like, they were there, like, they were pulling people in off the street who had been, you know, shot by rubber bullets who had, like, you know, were, like, coughing on the tear gas and everything else. Like, they were pulling people in, they were giving them water, they were washing out their eyes. Like, you know, they just turned his. His.

Like I said, his ice cream parlor into, you know, basically the field hospital.

Right.

I was talking to one of them, and I was like, hey, do you need help? Do I need to come up there? And at the same time, I was telling him, I was like, you know, I don't feel like I'm doing enough.

Right.

He was like, one, don't come up here. We appreciate the offer, but don't come up here. He's like. He said in two, he said, anybody that knows you, like, they know where you stand.

Right?

Like, it doesn't matter where you are or what you're doing. Like, anybody who knows you knows where you stand.

Yeah.

I think that goes for a lot of us, especially those of us who are playing more political music and speaking out and putting messages out there, like you're doing with your band. And I think people know where we stand, and I think sometimes, like, that's enough.

I heard a political activist lady on Instagram the other day, and I think the actor she was talking to is that lady, Kiki Palmer, but she was an older lady who had been through the civil rights movement.

And she said something to the effect, and this is, I'm sure a terrible paraphrase, but something to the effect of like don't go and get in a cop's face or ice's face or whatever and stick your finger in their chest and yell and you know, dare them to action because they certainly have the, the proclivity and the clearance to do whatever he said. And don't encourage your friends to do that sort of activity either. She said, you know, each one of us takes up space in the world.

We need to stand up right where we are at right now, right here, and stand up for the truth and for kindness and for compassion, for, for our fellow brothers, sisters and, you know, that sort of thing.

And I just thought, you know, that's really true and that's kind of what I was wanting someone to tell me because for the little tiny impact that my band has, what we get to say during, you know, during shows or between songs, like, well, is it really making a difference? Or whatever. But ultimately all we can do is what we can do until an opportunity to spring into action or to do something beyond that avails itself.

It's a matter of, well, for today it's enough for me to stand up and, and you know, speak truth to power from where I'm, whether I'm sitting at my, you know, straight job or whether I'm at, you know, at playing at a show or just in conversation with friends or whatever. And you know, again, the battle for hearts and minds, right?

And that's, it's not, you know, it's not necessary for us to do it and it's certainly not for us to encourage other people to. That may be a put upon group to. Trans person, go yell at that. Right. You know, Latino person, go yell at that ICE agent or whatever.

You know, it's awesome that they're doing those sorts of things and folks are standing up and making their voices heard, you know, So I don't know, honestly, maybe these are the words of a coward, but to me it's, it is important.

Yeah, well, I've got a BLM flag at my work, you know, so hopefully the other older white southern men that I work with, yeah, they're, you know, like they at least some see one of their peers who doesn't hold the standard typical Alabamian white man point of view on things, you know.

Right.

Well, and I think having the viewpoint of having that impact is hard, right, Because I've had this conversation with a couple people, but like, we want to change the world, right? Like, we want the world to be a better place. God, that is a daunting task.

It is.

It is a Herculean effort. And so what I have to remind myself of frequently is, like, look, you know, like punk rock. The world is how we define it, you know?

And so I'm gonna get up there and I'm gonna say what my heart tells me to say and preach inclusivity and preach acceptance and preach empathy and compassion and, you know, whatever, right? And hopefully a person is there that hears the message they need to hear that night or that day, right?

Hopefully the person needs to hear that they are accepted for who they are, regardless of what the government says, regardless what their family says, regardless of what their school says. There's a complete stranger standing up there saying, like, you are an amazing person just the way you are, and you don't need to change for anybody.

Hopefully there's one person there that needs to hear that message, and it changes their day or changes their minute or changes their hour. And if we can do that, then that has changed their world.

Absolutely.

Sometimes we just have to get super, super focused on the impact we're having and be content with, you know what? Tonight, like, one person came up and thanked me for what I said, right?

So tonight I changed that one person's world for the better, you know, and sometimes that's all we can do.

Absolutely. And it's honestly those little acts of, like, you said, compassion and even, honestly, quiet resistance.

Because unfortunately, you know, you say how mom, dad, preacher, government, or whoever may make somebody feel, you know, as somebody who is experienced and struggle with it, myself, honestly, the most insidious voice of all in my life is I. I'm much harder on myself than anybody else's has been in my life, and that's being a chubby nerd with glasses growing up that have weird taste in music or whatever, that's, you know, the. The internal dialogue or monologue, I should say dialogue, if you're really struggling, but monologue.

Yeah, I gotcha.

Monologue. The internal monologue is the hardest one to deal with.

And that's something we try to always tell people is, you know, we want to encourage people to be kind to one another. And honestly, the hardest and also most important person to be kind to a lot of the times is oneself and let yourself off the hook.

And we try and say that on a regular basis and let people know that, because, you know, I know what gunmetal tastes like, and I know what it means.

To take medication, to, in the broadest terms, help oneself feel better and to, you know, hit in your life where you're, I won't say afraid of everything, but just like all the color's been sucked out of your life, you don't love the things that you used to love anymore, it seemed like, because you're just struggling with this internal monologue and this depression and. And to be able to break free of that and to fund, you know, healthiness again, that's.

You know, I know sometimes I wanted to take my own life, but it was the next conversation that I had or the next song that came on the radio, just.

Just something that, like, you know, broke the cycle for me for just a moment to allow me to, like, resurface again instead of, you know, drowning in my own personal experience. Right. But, yeah, so, absolutely. And I'm living proof that each one of those little encouragements and moments of respite and, what do you call it?

The momentary water in the desert, you know, what do they call this?

Oasis.

An oasis in the desert is. Each one of those is transformational. And help me.

There was even goofy podcasts I would listen to where guys would talk about, like, their favorite 80s movies and stuff.

Each one of those moments and each word, each message, each find look you can give somebody, or holding a door for somebody or just being nice to somebody, I know for firsthand that that makes a difference and can absolutely make a difference and change somebody's entire life in just that moment, you know, to the next day.

Yeah, no, and I think you bring up a great point. Like, it's easy to show that empathy, compassion, whatever, kindness to other people. Like, it's very easy. It's much harder to do it for yourself.

Right.

It is much harder to forgive ourselves for our mistakes, you know, or. Or our perceived mistakes or shortcomings.

Yeah.

And I. I think. Oh, God, well, not to think. I know a lot of people struggle with that part, like showing, you know, showing that kindness to themselves.

Yeah.

And that's one of the reasons I started this podcast, is just looking at all the people over my lifetime that haven't been able to do that.

Right.

And, and, and it's, and it's easy to say, like, you know, be kind to yourself. Forgive yourself.

Right.

Like, give yourself some wiggle room. Not to be perfect.

Right.

But I also recognize it's very hard to do.

Right.

There's a great quote out there, and I can't remember who said it off the top of my head, and I'm probably not going to get it exactly right. But it's a quote I used. I used to work with kids. We're struggling, and it's basically like, just because you made a mistake doesn't mean you are one.

Right?

Right.

Absolutely.

And, you know, it's so simple and so to the point, but we make those mistakes and just beat the shit out of ourselves for it. It's like we're humans. That's what humans do. They make mistakes.

Yep.

You know, that's why we have these, you know, organized religion to create this thing that never makes a mistake. But no, we're humans and being human means we make mistakes. And, and unfortunately, we're really good at making mistakes.

And unfortunately, we're not really good at forgiving ourselves for making those mistakes.

Right. You know, Exactly.

But again, like punk rock for me was being in that place where I could make a mistake and I had that support system absolutely. To like, get me through it.

Yeah. Unlike the test scores at school and unlike the expectations of parents or friends or siblings, perfection was not the.

Not to say that it's need to score 100 points on every single test or whatever. That's what people expect. But. But some people do, and some people do deal with that expectation from other people or even from within themselves.

And thankfully, all you have to do is go to your local punk show and look at tattoos and you realize there's plenty of mistakes to be made of the permanent variety and we'll all survive them if we just keep on keeping on it. Right. Oh, there's a lot of bad ones out there.

You know, in high school, I was pretty much homeless. I would rotate through a couple different families and then I'd go and stay with my mom for a couple nights and I'd rotate through a couple families.

There were teachers in my high school. Like, I would show up first day of school and they like, nope, transferring you out of my class.

My counselor in high school pulled me into her office one time and was like, you just need to quit coming. Just quit coming to school. Like, you won't be missed. Just quit coming. Right.

And I wasn't a great student because I never did my homework, you know, and it's really hard to do homework when you don't go home, right? But there was a venue in D.C. called the Black Cat, and there was a bar right beside it called the Red Room.

And, like, the bar was all ages, the venue was all ages, and you could hear the bands playing from the bar.

So sometimes I would go into the bar, I'd buy myself a root beer, and I would do my homework sitting at one of the tables while I'm listening to the band playing in the next room because I didn't have enough money for the show, but I needed a reason to be able to sit there and listen to the band's play. It's hard to do your homework and study when you don't have a home. You can show up to a punk show and feel whatever.

We don't care if you didn't study. We don't care if you didn't do your homework. We just care if you're a decent person.

Yeah. A good hang.

And I think there's.

Within that community, there are a lot of us who are right and we're all imperfect and we've all made our mistakes and we've all, you know, haven't been the most exemplary person in our lives. But we learn and we try to do better, Right. And try and try to help other people do better as well.

Try to be a light in the world, people in the right direction, even whenever possible. Yeah.

So we've been talking about an hour and 20 minutes, and I want to be respectful of your time.

Okay?

So I have a couple more questions for you, and this has been a great conversation. I've really appreciated this conversation, so thank you.

Time.

First question. What gives you hope?

When I got old enough to start doing my own shows, like my own concerts that I was putting on or whatever, all ages type affairs, the people that were coming to them, the younger people, the teenagers, those millennial, I guess that that's the group right behind us, age wise. Right. The Millennial kids honestly gave me a lot of hope.

I can't speak for everybody's experience, but I can speak for myself that being those young people at that time in their lives, they seemed so much nicer, more accepting. There just seemed like there was a lot of edge to my generation.

And just seeing those young people seem like they were kinder and in their intentional dealings with each other, still have fun, still goof off, still, you know, bus balls, but you know, just genuinely seemed nicer. Now, maybe that was just a group of kids that I was hanging around with when I was putting on shows in my 20s, they definitely give me hope.

Because I know a lot of those kids still that now they're, you know, in their 30s and still wonderful people and very kind and have not lost their way and have not been made hardened by time or experience.

And they have every right to be because they're the first generations being given the story that theirs will not be better than their parents generation. So to see that many of them have held strong and continue to be kind and pursue that genteelness about themselves.

So those kids give me a lot of hope. Or not kids now so much, but adults.

But even the kids behind them, the younger generations, and even watching my own children, my 7 and 11 year old, it just seems like while there's certainly some shitty kids at school and my kid gets bullied some, his response to that is not to strike back in anger. And that is not from my raising. I think that's because he's just a better person or something.

There's something in the water that makes him and a lot of his friends who are of the neurodivergent sect to be just so much more kind. And even in the face of cruelty and meanness, seem to respond with more compassion than I ever did in my experiences. So the youth give me hope.

I think decentralization of the music business gives me hope that it can continue to grow, that music and art of all sorts and types can continue to grow without the interfering hands of big business people who want to massage everything to fit into this kind of box or that kind of box, but allow it being decentralized. You can write your tunes, record them at your house and put them on. I think that's awesome.

To me, that's like one tape, cassette tapes from my friends who were in punk rock bands when I was in high school. It's like that we're back. We're back there again.

We have the ability to make these recordings and even if they're like sonically not terrific, I grew up with that and I can listen through all that and hear great art and great potential happening in real time. And so I'm super stoked on that. And that YouTube and like this channel that you have here where people can get on and share their art.

That gives me a lot of hope for the future. Honestly. The rise of democratic socialism, generally speaking, or Barney Kratz or whatever you want to call them, gives me a lot of hope.

And how they're starting to take hold and actually win some offices and larger offices that I've been hearing about that sort of ideal my whole life, but actually seeing it take hold in the greater zeitgeist and see that some footholds are actually, you know, if those young people who are stepping up to the plate, who are impressing me 20 years ago, that are now being voted into these positions with their good hearts and with their good politics that I'm like, oh, okay, good, good, good.

Maybe we can like turn this thing around still, especially in the darkness of this time in this political reality in America and even with Brexit and stuff like that. It's not like it's only America that has their problems.

And just getting to be around my kids and making it to the age that I've made it by the grace of God to make it to this age, that that is a ever growing fountain of hope for me. I've had a life, I've had a family, I've lost it all, been living back in my car again.

And then by the grace of God, being able to have my life put back together again from those lowest moments that I've had and have a loving, beautiful wife and healthy, beautiful children and alive again after having lost it all in my early 30s. So these are all things for continual fountains of hope for me that I think on a regular basis.

Awesome. Thank you. Where can people find your music?

We are on all major streaming platforms, including Spotify and Apple Music and all the other ones that I'm not entirely sure of. We have a couple of live videos and a couple of the opposite of live videos on the LCY Channel, the Lawn Chair Youth Channel.

We have an Instagram and a. We just opened our Tick Tock, which my bass player is running. So he just keeps me up to date on that.

I run the ig, but that's where all of our stuff is.

If you want to reach out to us, you can find us through Instagram, through any of the streaming services, and also through Tick Tock if you need to reach us there. Cool.

Two more questions.

Sure thing.

What are you currently listening to?

Well, the aforementioned Ramones I was listening to earlier today. I have a. There's a couple of bands that I've made friends with and I know that are good people.

And on top of making really good music, they are also on the same label that we were on, no Time Records out of California, our Homies in Merck. They are on all the streaming services and they're terrific. And the guys in Impermanence. They're a two man band and just incredible dudes.

Incredible music. We couldn't be more happy to be with them on that label. Always Hong Kong, you is in rotation. Always World Peace.

They just dropped new records, so please, everybody check that out. They're incredible. And they're going to be on tour here in a minute hitting all the spots in the country. So go check them out if you dig it.

And the thing that never leaves the virtual CD player. My touchstone for music is pretty much always David Bowie. That entire catalog, top to bottom.

He's got just as much influence on me and my life and how I live it as he does musically. He inspires me as an artist. Obviously you won't hear a lot of David Bowie stuff in our music, but he is always in rotation.

Awesome. In your opinion, what should people be listening to right now?

Oh boy. See all the previous bands I just mentioned, obviously, of course, our own record, Sprinting Towards Annihilation with Open Arms.

Funny story real quick. I had to be very careful when we named that record that.

We didn't say Sprinting Towards Annihilation with Arms Wide Open because we knew we would never hear the end of it. So we had to be very careful. And I have still called it that in live settings. For please check out our new record on no Time Records.

The cassettes are available online. It's called Sprinting Towards Annihilation with Arms Wide Open. I mean with open arms.

But yeah, all the bands I previously mentioned, everybody listen to their moans. Everybody. That's the required listening. Misfits Static Age record specifically, and the entire David Bowie catalog.

Okay, in closing, is there anything else you want to say that we haven't covered?

It might be. I don't think it's a hot take at all.

But I just have to really put over, speak highly of and encourage people to know about the fact that I think and those of us in or else all think that the vanguard, the absolute apex of all that is punk rock that is happening right now, whether it's music or just these people living their lives and being an encouragement even to a boring CIS white guy like myself, is the existence and proliferation of transgender people. Their lives, their courage, their integrity to live who they are in their hearts. On their sleeves, as it were.

Speak their truth, to speak truth to power and to just be unapologetically who they are in their hearts. I think who identify as non binary and also transgender people.

I think just their existence, whether they're musicians or not, is one of the most, all pun intended Transformative punk rock things going on in the world today.

And they are a constant source to me to keep being my authentic self and be true to who I am in my heart and not to self censor or to do things to try and make myself more acceptable to any other group of people. So just real quick to shout them out. Of course, locally, as you know, you've played with them as well. Domestic Atrix and the Replicants.

Incredible band. Louder Transition Collective. They're a group of women who we played with in North Carolina a couple months ago. Great bands.

The absolute core of what punk rock is in regards to both their music and who they live their lives as day to day. It's just, I think it's the next level of evolution. I think it is for people to. To just be true to themselves to that level.

And I'm just absolutely blown away with their courage and again, their integrity and their intensity. And I just applaud them and everything that they do. So, yeah, that's probably. Like I said, I don't think it's a hot take.

I don't think you're gonna think it's a hot take. And probably nobody to listen to this. Oh, well, you know, he's playing in the safe zone now, you know, I really do think so.

And to hear the ongoing negativity that they still get from time to time from different corners of society, I'm just like, man, that is bullshit.

And you're going to learn just like when people used to shit on gay people all the time and then they had a gay uncle or a gay niece or a gay child or something like that and it changed, was a transformative experience in their hearts to experience a gay person firsthand. The same thing's going to happen with the transgender thing.

And when the kids in the non binary experience, when they have a beloved family member or friend or somebody like that that goes through that same experience and begins to express their inner self in the outside world in that way, people will start to lighten up on that sort of thing. I hope and pray so that they can have a safe place to be in the world and not deal with all the crap they're having to deal with right now.

Much love to our Latino friends and family and all of our people of color's family are dealing with this ICE bullshit.

And hopefully we can all get past this as safely as humanly possible and reach the next day, the next month, the next year in safety while all continuing to stand up for what we believe in.

Bo, thank you so much for the opportunity to be on this, all of us, and or else we're super stoked at the opportunity to be able to share with you and have this forum. Thank you again so much for sharing Punk love and compassion and letting us share our thoughts.

So I asked them if there's anything they wanted me to share, and these are kind of all a cobbling together of our. Our ideas, things that mean a lot to us as individuals.

Thank you. This has been a great conversation. Thank you for coming on. I truly enjoyed this conversation. And the rest of the band wants to come on.

They're more than welcome. I just prefer to do interviews individually because I really like.

I really like getting each person's individual story and it's hard to do that when I'm talking to a bunch of people. So they are more than welcome. If they want to come on and we can have a conversation, they're welcome. Yeah. And thank you again.

I really appreciate your time. I appreciate your willingness to be open and vulnerable and honest. Thank you. It means a lot. And with that, I guess we will close it out for tonight.

So thank you to everybody who listens. Yeah. Share it with your friends if you want. Share it with strangers if you want.

I don't care. Share it.

Hopefully you all think this is valuable use of your time and for people out there, if you're listening. And you know, one of the things I believe is everybody has a story to tell and I want to hear it.

Like, if you want to come on and share your story, just reach out to me on my Instagram, email, whatever. You know, reach out to me. Let me. I'm more than happy to have you on, talk about stuff and share your story.

But until then, with hope, love and good fashion, I appreciate you all and talk to you.

It.