In this episode, we discuss Playboy making their entry into the metaverse, Roblox shares falling by about 10% after an underwhelming quarter, Unity Software's stock falling by almost 30%, Irreverent Labs closing out a $40 million funding round for play to earn rooster fighting, and so much more!

Episode 25 Keywords: Playboy, metaverse, stock, Roblox, shares, Unity Software, Irreverent Labs, $40 million funding round

Welcome to the metaphysics podcast. The

Metaverse and web three are bringing about the biggest

revolution since the internet itself. With your hosts Paul the

prophet Dawalibi And Jeff the juice Cohen. We will be bringing

you the latest Metaverse, business news and insight into

what it all means. The meta business podcast starts now.

From the boardroom

to the metaverse. This is the meta business

podcast. I am Paul the Prophet Dawalibi. I'm joined today by my

friend and co host, Jeff the juice Cohen, those of you who

are new here, welcome to the official podcast in the

metaverse what we do is we cover the most pressing, Metaverse,

stories and news of the week, but we look at all of it through

a business and C suite lens dissect. We analyze the business

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Jeff, how you doing this week?

I'm doing well. I'm doing good week. I know we're

both both actual we're both moving. And I don't want to

Doc's, you on the pipe. We're both all as also, Paul's move is

bigger than me as much rather than mine.

We are both moving not into the metaverse so

we can at least confirm that Not yet. Not yet. But I have been

thinking about it. You know, I will say I was playing with

epics like Unreal Engine today a little bit. I had a little bit

of time in between calls and I was toying with Unreal Engine

five and their meta human integration in Unreal Engine

five. So I'm thinking at some point we'll have to create meta

humans, and do this whole thing as unreal, Unreal engine powered

meta humans.

I agree with that I was gonna make the joke. And

this is why you're so much more successful than me. Because in

between your calls, you go on Unreal Engine five and innovate

in between my calls, I go get a snack and try to play with my

dog. So this is why we're not the same.

Well, I'm gonna get you a meta human avatar

here. And we're going to do this at some point. You guys will can

look forward to that because it is cool. I am Will's I will say,

I have been very bearish on Tim Sweeney, but I am thoroughly

impressed with Unreal Engine five, I think. You know, for

someone I'm not a 3d designer, like I thought what I do for a

living, obviously, but you know, tech savvy enough to go in and

get a good feel for what this thing can do. And I was very,

very impressed. Let's put it that way. So interesting

anecdote. We often talk about things like gaming and stuff

like that. So let's start with a story. Jeff that is short to

attract attention. I'm sure we're going to turn it into a

very click baby headline for the podcast here. But the article

here is from Seeking Alpha and the headline says Playboy, and

the metaverse could imply significant stock

undervaluation, so Playboy, it says PLB why? Well, I guess PLDI

group is the group that owns Playboy, obviously one of the

most recognizable brands in the world. They recently launched a

virtual Playboy Mansion in the metaverse and and what they're

saying is, if management is successful in its efforts in

this industry in the gaming industry, Metaverse, whatever

net revenue could trend north. So not a whole ton of detail in

this article. They're just saying, you know that the

metaverse and their expansion in China and India, I don't know

why those are in the same sentence. They're two very

different initiatives. But they're very bullish on their

Metaverse play here for Playboy. You know, we always start what

was tried to start with kind of a fun, lighthearted story. What

do you think of a virtual Playboy Mansion? In the

metaverse? Like,

I think it's super interesting. Obviously, you

know, I'm not familiar with Playboy stock. So I'm not going

to try to get into the nuances of what this actually does for

Playboy stock. And as you're going through so this is a

Seeking Alpha article, which is a investor website where people

will post, you know, their stock ideas and their pitches, as

you're scrolling through it here. For people who are

watching on, you know, video, it's pretty impressive. They

actually have like a lot of detail. You know, click Beatty

article like this is someone put together like a very detailed

stock pitch. I don't think we're gonna get into that because

neither of us know the Playboy business model that well, but I

think it's interesting. I mean, you know, the, the porn

industry, interestingly enough, has actually been very early to

a lot of like technological trends, like porn was one of the

early kind of use cases of the internet, you know, especially

of high speed broadband, things like that. So I don't think it's

actually that crazy that, you know, virtual illicit behavior

could actually be a very early use case. For the metaverse, you

know, there's a lot of different ways you could take that in

terms of what that means for society and how you know that

how that could be negative and in many different ways, but

there is a big market out there for this kind of thing. And so I

think it's interesting that that Playboy is kind of digging in

and having a presence in the metaverse. We often joke that

every bit, you know, it seems like every business is at some

point going to have their their fingers in the metaverse. And

obviously Playboy is not, is not not one of those businesses.

Obviously, I agree with everything here. But

like, my take on this is a little bit different in the

sense that, Aren't you surprised that Playboy was maybe the first

mover here, right, because Playboy traditionally has been

kind of the laggard when it comes to new tech, right. They

like stuck with a magazine probably a lot longer than they

should have. And there are definitely adult entertainment

websites that are more forward thinking tech savvy, you know,

innovate on the tech side. And at least I don't know about

them. But I don't think I've heard of any efforts from those

companies to do something, you know, in existing meta verses,

or in their own or whatever, right? Like, I have not heard

any of the adult sites doing something in decentraland or

sandbox. And I don't know if that's because existing meta

verses have turned them down. And maybe Playboy's a little bit

of a safer not so you know, hardcore brand, you know, adult

brand. But I'm surprised that it's Playboy, sort of making the

first move here.

It's a great point, I guess, to be fair, and maybe

as we're like, looking through this article, I wonder if this

is something Playboy actually announced, or if it's this, just

this investor saying, hey, they should do this. Because you

brought up a good point about content moderation, like I do

wonder, you know, this isn't going in Roblox I'm sure. I

highly doubt Roblox would would allow, you know, something like

this on their platform. So it's probably going to have to go

into one of maybe the more upstart, mega versus like, even

epic, you know, I don't know just, is fortnight gonna put

Playboy into into fortnight? Maybe, but probably, you know,

you're probably looking at one of these more. It's, it's a

great move for an up and coming Metaverse that we're always

talking about, hey, they don't have, they don't have people

there. There's no use case like something like the sandbox or

decentral. And maybe this becomes a little bit of their

way to get a little more publicity and kind of like,

bring in that 18 to 35 year old male, which, frankly, you know,

Sex sells. So

I clicked through this article from last year from

late last year. And it was, you know, my just quick read of this

article is, it seems a lot of this is being driven by the new

spec owners right of Playboy, because they use the spec to go

public and they did a sale of NF TS called rabbit tars. And every

owner of these NF T's can belong to the Playboy Club. So if

you're watching again, these are some of the lefties. It looks

really just throwing everything at the wall, I guess.

But, you know, again, I'm impressed that

Playboy is sort of the first mover here that that they're

thinking about this before other adult brands, which have

definitely shown a more tech savvy or more tech innovation.

So bid on Playboy, maybe this is their chance to reinvent

themselves, right? In some ways. The move to web three in the

metaverse is allowing older, slower brands that may have

fallen behind the web to, to to catch up or to even take

leadership roles or positions. Because it's a clean slate.

Yeah. And we've seen web three companies try to

resurrect even like decidedly dead break right blockbuster

Limewire like a couple of you know, maybe those are a little

bit more of like meme brands, but yeah, I think you can

reinvent yourself and web three, the new audience to some extent.

Let's move on. Jeff, let's talk about Roblox.

We're gonna talk about Roblox in unity, call it back to back

here. Both had their earnings calls this like for this

quarter? And some interesting takeaways here. I think there

may be some interesting discussion to go through. Let's

start with Roblox. And, you know, there was a whole

shareholder letter which we don't know, the half hour

podcast, so we don't have the time to get that deep into that

shareholder letter. But this CNBC article has a bit of a

summary. So the headline here robot, Roblox shares sync on

disappointing revenue and wider than expected loss. ROBLOX

reported fewer users in the quarter than Analysts had

expected and bookings dropped from a year earlier. Company

which generates revenue from purchases of its robux virtual

currency has suffered along the rest of the tech industry. So

just a bit of a read cap here, they had a loss of 27 cents a

share versus 21 cents, which is expected by the analysts revenue

631 point 2 million versus 645 million. It's a little bit of a

mess, their bookings declined by 3% in the quarter. So a little

bit of a cooling from the pandemic. That is what the CNBC

article is saying here. And the daily active users, though, are

up, and they're up 28% From a year earlier. The only problem

was the street was expecting 55 million da use, and Roblox

reported 54 point 1 million users spent 11 point 8 billion

hours engaged in Roblox and the average booking per daily active

user slid 25% to $11.67. So more users not as many as expected,

but they're spending a little bit less than they used to. And

so revenue missed a little bit and earnings missed a little

bit. What do you make of the overall Roblox picture here,

Jeff? And do you think there's a bit of an overreaction just or

general market sentiments bad? So Roblox is a victim? Or do you

think there's anything in these numbers scare you?

I mean, number one, definitely there is a bit of a,

you know, the market sentiment has completely shifted. And

obviously, this is a business podcast, but we're not, you

know, going too deep into stock analysis. But the macro picture

right now is is pretty bleak. And the whole market is, is kind

of selling off particularly these these large cap like

growth tech stocks, so it makes sense that any hiccup you're

gonna get, you're gonna get punished. I do think the

interesting piece here is around the a the bookings declining,

year over year is not great. Like because even if, if growth

is slowing, like, it's pretty bad. And I understand it's Tough

comps, and you had COVID Last year, but shrinking like as a

business is not great when you're trading as a premium

brand and a premium multiple. So that's a little surprising. And

then this stat around like the time spent per user shrinking is

actually probably the most the dollar alarm. But I think there

was also it might not have said it in this, the the the actual

time spent per daily active user was down on average. So that's

probably the most alarming piece. And, you know, they did

say, hey, it was slowed down because, you know, probably was

because last year was a little bit more code, you know, COVID

locked down versus this, this kind of spring. I don't know Do

you buy Do you buy that like that, to me is a little bit of

alarming, alarming picture. Because, you know, you could

blame COVID. But you could also say, hey, people are moving on

to other metal versus people are moving on, you know, aging up

out of the platform. Like that's an alarming stat, that usage per

per person is dropping. I mean,

but but the daily active users are growing now.

They missed analysts expectations, but there was

still growth and 28% year over year is not like anything to

sneeze at that grew an average of 46% annually. Now, is growth

potentially slowing? Yes. But you're also now have a user base

that is, is pretty large. I mean, the simplest question I

have to come back to your question, Jeff, I'll answer your

question. But the question is, you know, market cap of Roblox

today is 14 billion and just looked it up. Right. We know

epic, just raised around at 30 plus billion, right? 31 and a

half billion I think was the $2 billion dollar round they just

did. Is epic worth to Roblox says,

Well, it's funny that you're posing it that way.

Because actually, like a month or two ago, we were having the

exact same conversation but the opposite. Where it was like,

well, Roblox is worth 58 billion, and like epic is worth

20. Like, does that make sense? And the answers, they're

probably pretty similar. You know, that's the benefit and the

negative of being on the public market where every day your your

sort of valuation fluctuates. Good on Epic to have closed

that, you know, $2 billion round, like a month ago, which

doesn't seem like a lot of time, but the markets have really

shifted so good on them to get that money. Yeah, they probably

should be about the same, the same valuation. It's probably

overshot on the downside at this point. But I think investors are

going to want to see those metrics kind of reach

accelerate, where if bookings are declining, and time spent on

the platform is declining, even though, you know, users are

still growing? Like, that's not great. And I think I saw

somewhere in here that like users in particularly in North

America, like I think daily active users may have even been

like flat to down. So they're growing in other regions, which

is great. That's a big initiative for them to grow

internationally. But those people are obviously not

monetizing, as much. So, you know, investors will look for

signs that they and monetize those international users. If

they start doing that you'll see this doc, I'm sure you start to

start to go higher.

Yeah, I think the one thing that I find

encouraging from the whole Roblox story is their story

hasn't really changed. Right? Like they've they've, they've

not said one thing, and then six months later said another thing,

right? They seem pretty focused on what they want to achieve. I

just did a quick search through their shareholder letter, right?

There's five mentions of the word Metaverse in a 12 page

letter. Right. And where they mentioned it, I think makes

sense, right. But they talk about and I think maybe the most

exciting place I'll just read the sentence. And this is where

I sort of get excited for the long term opportunity for

Roblox. They're they're not just thinking about user growth.

They're thinking about monetization. They're thinking

about, you know, every angle of building out these this

metaverse. They said beyond sponsored ads were at the

beginning stages of developing native and immersive advertising

in the Roblox metaverse. We envisioned several new

advertising units that we imagined as being complementary

to our user experience that I think is, in and of itself is

maybe one of the most interesting things from this

whole story. Because so far, all of the advertising we've seen in

any Metaverse is like, slap a logo or like a banner,

essentially, in the virtual world. In the same way, you may

have a, you know, a digital sign on the highway in the real

world, right. Like there's, there's not much innovation that

has happened there. And if Roblox sort of figures that out

unlocks that, that could be really massive, right? Like that

could be pretty consequential for the entire Metaverse story

100% agree. And it's not really something that I

think investors had really baked a ton into in their projections,

like, they were probably more thinking in terms of user

monetization, like in app purchasing avatars, purchasing

skins, if they can really unlock like an advertising side of the

business and make that you know, 20 or 30% of revenue. That that

is, that would be kind of game changing. Funnily enough, my one

of my impressions for whatever reason, maybe it's just having

heard Roblox talk a lot and listened to their investor days

and stuff in the past, I almost was alarmed by the focus on

monetization a little bit. And I'm putting my tinfoil hat on.

Like, it almost felt to me like what's like the Shakespeare

thing, like the lady doth protest too much, like, because

it was sterically, their line has always been like, look,

we're about user growth, we're about to experience the

platform, like, we don't care about money, you know, like,

people will monetize. But like, we're not trying to like, shake,

turn them over and shake the coins out of their pockets. And

the fact that they made like half the shareholder letter

about like, look at all these ways we can, like don't worry,

Wall Street, like we're gonna monetize, almost made me like

feel like that, like, worse about it as an investor.

Interesting, that is kind of like that. tinfoil

hat theory weapon. It makes sense, right? It could be the

distraction like, I don't worry like that it's slowing here

because we're gonna figure out how to squeeze more out of what

we've got.

Right? Like an ending to or like any one of

what we think is like this, you know, you're on record saying

they're gonna have more users than Twitter in however many

years our bet is, like, you know, we're expecting them to

get to two 300 million, you know, daily monthly sort of

monthly active players I think there are 50 so if they're

starting to say hey, like monitor, it's all about

monetization now like that, as a long term investor would

probably worry me just maybe reading between the lines a

little bit and and maybe they're just putting some of this stuff

in there because they see the market and every stock is

getting killed, you know, right now and growth plans so maybe

they they're, they want to play up the monetization side but a

little something in my head kind of just like made my alarm bells

go off a little bit.

i I wonder what is hampering the user growth at

Roblox? Like why is it why is it not growing? You know, 50% a

quarter and I'm exaggerating but like, what what is stopping the

growth at Roblox or what is slowing the growth at Roblox? Is

it an inability to break out of their age range? Is it not

enough novel experiences built by developers? Is it not enough

awareness because Roblox truly is not doesn't have the same

presence of of mind or mind sharing that in the mainstream

community as like a Minecraft or fortnight?

I think it is that a lot. I'd be curious to know how

their, their their advertising, like where, you know, clearly

kids are finding this. Like I'm always whenever I'm with my

cousins and stuff. They're always talking like I'm always

surprised that they are playing and talking about robots, but

it's not like you see ads on TV or like You know, if you watch

cartoons with your kid on the week, it's not like you see a

Roblox ad. So I'm not sure what how they're actually targeting

these kids. Which thing to say targeting these kids, but I'm

not sure how they're getting their name out there.

Yeah, that may be the issue. Let's let's switch

over here to unity because unity also had a bit of a problematic

quarter. And the headline here, so this is from MarketWatch. The

headline here says unity software stock plunges nearly

30% On week revenue guidance. So this is on Tuesday of last, like

if you're listening to this well, on Monday, when this comes

out, this would have been Tuesday of last week. And so

they reported first quarter results, largely in line with

Wall Street forecasts, they reported a net loss of 177

million, compared with 107 point 5 million in the year ago

quarter. So they're losing more money than they did a year ago

in the same quarter. But revenue increased 36%, which is not

insignificant. And unity said that q2 revenue should be

between 290 and 295 million, while analysts anticipated 360

million. So it seems like the analysts are expecting faster

growth than the company believes they can achieve. And again, are

there any alarm bells for you here? Or is it just market

softness,

I think it's a bit of a bit of market softness.

Again, you know, this story, I'm a little less in tune with than

the Roblox store, because unity is more of a software to b2b

software company. So it's, even though it is a gaming company,

it really trades like a, like a SaaS company. So as I understand

that, the quick, I guess, the quick take is that unity has

sort of two sides of the business. One side is the SAS

business where, you know, if you're a developer on unity, you

pay them, you know, on a per seat basis for a subscription.

And then the other side is really almost like an ad

network, and they have a bunch of stuff that helps monitor

these developers then monetize their game. And that's paid for

on like a per usage basis. So I think there was an issue on that

side of the business, like the ad piece, and it had some, you

know, something to do with the Apple changes that have gone

into effect in the last year. Basically, there was some, some

change that caused them to have their growth be slower. And so I

think that was a big piece. And then they talked a lot about in

the call how it's going to take them a few quarters to like ramp

back up to the same growth on that side of the business. So

yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I will just go you know, full

disclosure, I bought some of the some stock today in Unity. For

my my PA, it just seemed like the stock is at such a fall from

where I think it was over $200, like, a few months ago. And I

just see how 85% In the last six months. So I just see how

valuable unity is in terms of an engine. Like I know, you spoke

at the top about Unreal Engine, and we were talking about

immersive worlds and stuff like that. Unreal is the number one

engine the one to go with. But when you're talking about mobile

gaming, I mean unities market share is passing. Well, well

over 50%. And they're doing a lot in terms of Metaverse, web

three, like a lot of the gaming companies that are building web

three games are building them on unity. So I think it's a pretty

strategic asset. And, you know, at the I think it's like a $9

billion company now, the growth of gaming and just still the

popularity of mobile gaming. Throwing web three. I think it's

too cheap.

I want to keen on something you said you're

because Unity has market share very similar to Unreal, right.

And in some ways on mobile, they're stronger, but very

similar, like pretty apples to apples comparison between Unity

and Unreal Engine when it comes to sort of market share size,

scope, you know who it reaches, etc. And you're right. A lot of

web three developers are building on unity. What I find

interesting, and this is totally anecdotal. I rarely see any

articles or any kind of press or any kind of communication from

Unity, talking about Metaverse, web three, like almost nothing,

but they have not tied themselves to that horse at all.

Whereas epic very much has right epic talks about it quite

frequently, and Unreal Engine in that context. And I wonder if

part of it is just they haven't done a good job of communicating

sort of what they are doing in that space in this space.

I think that's a fair point. It's funny you say

that because right before before taping, I had Mad Money. This

has become like the final episode, which is funny, but I

was watching Jim Cramer like mad money on CNBC and John reputa.

Oh with on being interviewed. And he actually said something

around Metaverse like basically like, that's become a buzzword

like we don't even think about Like we don't talk about that,

like we're, you know, we're were like building he kind of like

said we're doing all these things but was like the

metaverse has become a buzzword like here's what we're, you

know, we have 70% market share on mobile. He kind of like was

like, this is the tangible stuff we're doing, like all this

Metaverse stuff is just a distraction. So it's funny that

you said that it seemed like almost it's like, part of like a

conscious decision, not the hype up Metaverse speech, which if we

were talking three months ago would have been negative but now

it seems like maybe that's a positive a good strategy. Yeah,

it

feels like a bit of a miss. Right. And when your

stocks down at 5% in the last six months, maybe that's not the

hill to die on. Right, like seeing worse hills to die on,

but that one's not a good one. All right, let's get to our last

story. Here. We have a an interesting one here. This is

news from VentureBeat. The headline here is irreverent or

GamesBeat irreverent labs confirms $40 million round

funded by Andreessen Horowitz and others. So this is talking

about a reverent labs, their web three game developer, they've

confirmed that they've raised 40 million to create Mecca

fightclub, a robot cockfighting game that uses NF T's This is

the founder here is the was the founder of voodoo PC who I think

they sold to, I want to say HP I think or Dell, Dell or HP bought

and

then bought or all said it was also the founder of

unicorn which is that they didn't let's that is they just

sold they were the sports betting company that you know

was backed by Mark Cuban and had a had a lot of success and then

about failure but then was recently sold to obtain a

massive gambling company so

so it's a play to earn game. You you the Mecca

fight clubs. I'll read this from the article. fight clubs

chickens are mega bots with NF T's which use the blockchain to

verify the uniqueness of each chicken played to earn. Players

can own the characters that they buy and profit from if they can

resell them to someone else once they're leveled up. While

cockfighting is controversial, it's popular in Asia, and the

creators are aware that the people are concerned about the

cruelty of the real world sport. And so the developers are

emphasizing humorous combat, not gory realism. So you'll collect

train and battle combat robots. Sounds a little bit like Pokemon

to be honest. And each mech robot has unique styles,

abilities, preferences, etc. So big round $40 million for

cockfighting.

I mean, if you had read that story to me, a year

and a half ago with nothing like I wouldn't believe the single

you've said this before. Later earn like a virtual digital

cockfight where you earn money, like fighting your Cox, like

it's crazy. But the craziest part actually, of all, this is

like we really crossed the Rubicon in terms of Andreessen

Horowitz backing something like a content play like this, like,

for the longest time, I mean, gaming was really shone that

large VCs because it was, hey, it's too hit driven. It's, you

know, it's cyclical, blah, blah, blah, there's too much risk in

the content cycles. And if they were even going to look at or

touch gaming, it was, hey, we're interested in platforms, we're

interested in tools and technology, and a picks and

shovels plays, the fact that we're now seeing, you know, a

venerable VC firm, like Andreessen Horowitz investing in

this, which, I mean, good for them, I wish them a lot of

success. They clearly founders have a track record of exits. So

that's probably what, what Andreessen is betting on, but

this is a pure content play. If the game doesn't work, the

money's gone. Like there is no backup plan. So yeah, I mean,

this It's surprising. I don't know if you as a VC, if you have

any thoughts on that.

I mean, this has to be all about the founder.

Right? Like, I have to believe that this is essentially almost

like a favor because I just feel like there's a lot of risk here.

First of all, just in like, the the nature of the content,

right? And I get maybe it's an Asia play, which where I firmly

believe that played earn is probably only going to survive

in developing countries, not in North America. So maybe the

whole cockfighting like, subject matter is fine then, but I can

see how this gets backlash in a place like the US where people

are a lot more sensitive to these things, and are much more

vocal about these things. So I'm not I'm not 100% Sure, where the

innovation is coming from, like, what justifies a $40 million

investment in something that is no different than just about any

other fighting game. Other than the fact that it's an NFT,

right? Like you've integrated NF T's. And I think that's where

the blockage for me is, it's, you know, where where is the

10x 100x kind of return? If we believe that if like, unless you

believe the economics of adding in the NF TS changes the game so

drastically. This is a hard one to get my head around. And I'm,

I'm, I'm just skeptical that anyone will care to play this

beyond like, a bit of a meme thing that some streamer will do

for like, an hour. And then there's not much to it right?

Like, you, this really has to be the next Pokemon to justify a

$40 million investment. That's the way I think about it. Right?

It has to be the next Pokemon. And I don't know if you know,

the same way I buy Pokemon cards for my five year old nephew,

will I go buy him? You know, Mecha COC whatever? Like? I

don't know, I don't think so. And so, it seems disconnected

from the size of the investment. If this was like 4 million, and

it's a flyer, and, you know, you want to test out something fun,

and you're investing in 50 of these, I guess with Andreessen,

they can invest in 50 of these and they can still put this

amount of money. And so the economics may be different, but

I just, I just don't see it. I mean, they say the discord

community has 25,000 fans. I mean, hey, our sister pie are

like meta TV, our parent, that's discord community of the same

size, right? Like, this is not Yeah, this is not, you know,

World of Warcraft, Counter Strike level of interest,

right? And assume that even even, you know, I

think 10% of those people getting 10% of those people to

actually download and play the game would be probably a massive

success. Think about how much money they'd have to spend to

even come close to justifying anything near this $40 million

raise. That'll be in the fall.

It'll be interesting to follow. And, you

know, I would be curious to see long term, how many of these

plays and recent puts in their fund for example, right? Is it

five? Is it 10? Is it 25 bets? Like I can't wait to see sort of

the overall picture come become clear in terms of their thesis.

Jeff, that wraps up this week's podcast flew by. As always guys,

make sure to subscribe, leave a review, go follow the juice on

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