Bio

Jeremy Toeman is a seasoned tech entrepreneur and innovator with over two decades of experience in the media, entertainment, and consumer technology spaces. He’s exited several early stage startups including Sling Media and Dijit, as well as held leadership positions at companies such as CBS and WarnerMedia. 

Intro

Join Jothy Rosenberg as he speaks with Jeremy Toeman, a seasoned tech entrepreneur and innovator, about the challenges and opportunities in video marketing today. Jeremy highlights a striking statistic: 70% of businesses are not utilizing video marketing, which underscores a significant gap in the industry. He shares insights from his journey, including his experiences with startups like Sling Media, emphasizing the importance of transparency and building strong relationships with co-founders and friends to navigate the ups and downs of entrepreneurship. The conversation delves into the intersection of technology and media, exploring how video tools can empower non-professionals to participate in video-first marketing. Jeremy’s passion for making entertainment more accessible shines through as he discusses his latest venture, Augie, which aims to simplify video editing for everyone.

The Story

Jeremy Toeman, a seasoned tech entrepreneur, shares his journey from Canada to the startup scene in the Bay Area and now New York. His latest venture, Augie, offers an all-in-one video editing suite tailored for non-video professionals, aiming to democratize video marketing. The episode delves into the challenges faced by startups, emphasizing the emotional rollercoaster of entrepreneurship. Toeman discusses the importance of transparency and building supportive relationships, highlighting how open conversations with friends and co-founders can provide the necessary recharge during tough times. With over two decades in tech, Toeman reflects on his experiences, including his work with Sling Media, where he helped create a revolutionary product that allowed users to watch TV over the internet, setting the stage for modern streaming. Through candid insights and personal anecdotes, the episode paints a vivid picture of the startup landscape and the grit required to navigate it successfully.

Takeaways

• Jeremy Toeman emphasizes the importance of transparency in friendships, especially during challenging startup times.
• A staggering 70% of businesses are not utilizing video marketing effectively, which presents a significant opportunity.
• The journey of building a startup often requires grit, resilience, and support from family and friends.
• Toeman's experience with Slingbox highlighted how a small, dedicated team can achieve remarkable results.
• Understanding both technology and business is crucial for effective leadership in tech startups.
• The need for better analytics and testing in video marketing is a pressing issue that many companies face.

Links

Jeremy's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jtoeman/

Jeremy's startup: https://www.instagram.com/augie.studio/

Leave us a review: https://podchaser.com/DesigningSuccessfulStartups

Jothy's book: https://www.amazon.com/Tech-Startup-Toolkit-launch-strong/dp/1633438422/

Finds all podcasts: https://jothyrosenberg.com/podcast

YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@DesigningSuccessfulStartups

Jothy’s non-profit: https://whosaysicant.org

Jothy’s TEDx talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNtOawXAx5A

Foreign.

Rosenberg, the host of Designly Successful Startups, where today's guest is Jeremy Tolman.

I'm an extremely transparent person and so I've built certain friendships where I can just talk about anything.

I have the friends that I can look at and be like, I don't know if my startup's gonna make it, man.

I don't know if I'm gonna have to lay everybody off one day.

We're not getting the thing we need to get, or this isn't working.

Like, like I can start a day and be like, how you doing, man?

He's like, not great.

Like, I know what you mean.

And we can just talk about that for a moment because he's going to take some of my.

He's going to.

He's going to get recharged a little from me and I'm going to get recharged a little from him.

Jeremy Thoman is a seasoned tech entrepreneur and innovator with over two decades of experience in the media, entertainment and consumer technology spaces.

He's exited several early stage startups including Sling Media and Digit, as well as held leadership positions at companies such as CBS and WarnerMedia.

And here is Jeremy.

Welcome to the podcast.

I'm very pleased to have you on.

Thanks.

I'm really excited to chat with you today.

All right, great.

Hey, I'd like to start with where are you originally from and where do you live now?

I was a wee lad in Canada and I'm from Montreal.

I will say I spent the bulk of my career so far in the Bay Area.

I lived in San Francisco for about 19 years and about seven years ago moved to the suburbs of New York City.

And I currently live in a small town called Dobbs Ferry, right by the.

Tappan Zee Bridge, diving right into the world of startups.

Tell us about your current startup.

What does it do?

Sure.

So the company is called Augie.

The platform is called Augie Studio.

And the shortest answer is basically, we're an all in one video editing suite designed for non video professionals.

Whether it's podcaster, marketer, salesperson, founder, startup CEO.

Our vision is to, for lack of a better phrase, level the playing field so that everybody can participate in video first marketing.

Right.

We live at a time where everybody's watching video all day, every day, and 70% of businesses only make one, one video a year to promote themselves.

So we built Augie to address that problem.

We've been at it for about three years and it's all web based and we think really easy to use.

There's About a five minute learning curve.

You do have to, you know, every product has its way.

Right.

But compared to what it takes to learn the professional tools like Adobe Premiere Pro and Final Cut and all these, we, we've designed Augie to be for, for the rest of us.

I still have this workflow where I have to record on, on a platform.

Happens to be Riverside.

We're using it right now.

Right.

They, they try, they're trying to put a whole bunch of editing capability there, but I don't use it.

I don't particularly like it very much.

And I, and I bring the recordings out and I plop them down into imovie and I add some static images and, and I cut it up a little bit and, and I put my introduction in that I record separately.

And so but it's a, it's kind of a workflow and it's a process and, and I have to use something else to smooth out the audio.

There's a really nice tool from Adobe called, I guess it's just called Adobe Podcast.

Yeah, it, it's a great tool.

Adobe Podcast for audio.

Oh my gosh, it's the best.

They do a nice job.

You take the audio from this and you put it through that and you would swear that I was in a, a professional studio, you know, soundproof.

I hear you.

We, I actually, I, we, we had run a little event and we actually had the wrong mic recording and so you had all that kind of ambient room noise going on and we, we were like, well, let's try podcast for it.

Perfection.

Like, unbelievable.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so go back and take us back to why you got into this.

You know, there's a, there's a part of this which is pretty deeply technical.

I mean, to do what you're doing, you know, manipulating videos and all the different formats and, and you know, and people might want to sometimes take off the picture and just have sound and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

So anyway, that's complicated tech and you're kind of in this media entertainment, if you call podcast entertainment, which I think they are.

How did you get into this, you know, space that converges the two?

Funny enough, a lot of my career has been the same story of just finding personal things where it's like, why is this experience so bad?

So in this case, I will say my entire career went, you know, back about 99.

I got my first portable MP3 player.

I got a Rio, I think it was called the PMP 300 or 500.

I'm sure nerds like me will go out and go check that out.

Uh, but I got the first thing that let me play an mp3 file not on my computer and for that was like, oh, this makes no sense.

All of my MP3 should be on my stereo, all of my digital photos should be on my tv.

All of the, you know, this was pre digital video, to be really honest.

So we didn't, we weren't quite thinking that way.

And my cousin was a serial entrepreneur at the time, or is a serial entrepreneur.

He was having similar thoughts and we were, you know, hanging out a bunch.

We said, well, what if we build kind of an operating system or a platform or a product?

And we really didn't know at the time.

Something that just makes it easier to take digital media assets for people like I always think about, like my mom, as a user who want to experience all this greatness that digital media brings them, but not on say a laptop.

So today I think we can all argue that streaming media has done a pretty good job of extending past the laptop.

But that sort of, I don't know if I want to say, like, opened my mind or something, but the idea of use technology to make entertainment easier and candidly more satisfying for people just sort of became a center point for me.

And I've wavered a little from there over the different paths I've taken, but not much.

And, and I sort of rationalize it all.

You know, there are doctors, there are neurologists, there are people studying how to solve cancer and how to do this and that, and I don't think I have the brain for that.

But those people all need to relax at night and I want to make their entertainment part of their days way better so they can solve the real world problems while, while the rest of us try to make their, their, their, their days and evenings alone.

So that's, that sort of became my, my thing.

And I've just, you know, charted my career around that effectively ever since.

Do you have any kind of formal training in some of the deep technology stuff that you have to work with or, or are you just partnering with somebody that does have that?

I do.

So I started my educational career at Carnegie Mellon where I was studying electrical and computer engineering.

I was programming from a very young age, literally on the Commodore with a, with a tape drive.

And I, I, you know, I have a deep background in that space.

But candidly, in college and then post, I pivoted to what I guess we would just sort of call the business side of things.

And so I tend to team up with the deeply technical individuals to actually get the job done.

Our starting, for example, our starting lead engineer here at Augie was someone I had worked with at WarnerMedia who had just deep background in AI and video before all the GPT, LLM world of which we now live in.

So he had a strong background that my second hire actually also happened to be another Carnegie Mellon alum who just has 20 years experience building, you know, strong technology products.

So I try to find the hands on people so that were the right complement of school skillset.

And my third co founder is J.T.

white.

He is a, I mean we're both product people but that's been his whole path.

So now I have someone I can trust to be like, hey, we should make a thing that does this and he knows exactly what that means.

It goes off and we go get it built and can really bring this platform forward.

So I, I guess I spend the least of my time these days on the technical side, but because of my background in it, I can have credible conversations with everybody in the organization so that we're building the right thing.

Does that mean, does that make all sense?

That makes a ton of sense.

And like the, I think the first chapter, or maybe it's the second chapter in my book is about the kind of person that needs to lead a tech startup in the early days, needs to be focused on the business, but has to be able to articulate very well the technology so that you know that when they're explaining it to say a customer or an investor, they don't always have to bring a second person with them.

And it sounds like you've, you've, you've got that nailed.

I like that.

And, and, and I don't know if that's, if I'm, if I'm reading ahead of where, where that goes but to me the, the second, everything you said I 100% agree with.

And then sort of the next part is and then go find people smarter than you to go do all the things right?

Like of course, yes.

I sometimes read stories about startups that fail and you read like this, like, well, the CEO didn't want a better marketer than themselves.

And I'm like, I want everybody better than me.

I want to just like I want to, I want to have a bad idea that smarter people turn into amazing ideas.

I mean it's just, you know, fundamentally insecurity.

Well, I have to also tell you, everybody knows that CMU is a fantastic school, but I have another Positive.

One other positive thing to tell you about it that you might not know for a while.

I was an investor and the idea was to invest in the earliest stage possible, which means going to the tech transfer officer at universities.

And I covered like the whole east coast and find patents that somebody at the university, a professor at the university invented.

Sure.

And if it matches something that I think is a real problem and a need, then I will talk to that school and that professor.

But all tech transfer officers are not the same and some have extremely complicated and extremely unworkable for our side of the table to, to work with.

They want royalties at a stair step function and everything.

CMU's Tech Transfer Office had a sign above the door.

It said five and get out.

What does that mean?

And they said, we want 5%.

That's it.

No other restrictions.

You just pay us 5% of what?

Whatever, whatever the company makes.

That's it.

And I thought, wow, that is just so smart.

We actually ended up getting a small Investment, participated in CMU's VentureBridge program.

It's like their Y Combinator equivalent last summer.

And again, the caliber of people that they had bringing in, whether it was investors or, you know, they kind of bring in someone from all walks of life, sales and marketing and product tech and everything.

But the people that were showing up, like Jim Schwartz, founder of Excel Ventures and et cetera, was really, really great to get to get to listen to some of these folks talk and hear some of their journeys.

It's great.

Hi.

The podcast you are listening to is a companion to my recent book, Tech Startup Toolkit, how to Launch Strong and Exit Big.

This is the book I wish I'd had.

As I was founding and running eight startups over 35 years, I tell the unvarnished truth about what went right and especially about what went wrong.

It's for the founder, the CEO and wannabe founders of tech and non tech startups.

You could get it from all the usual booksellers.

Now back to the show.

All right, it's pretty clear from what you said so far that you've worked on a large number of products.

Couple.

Do you have a favorite?

It's hard for me to not mention the sling box in most of my conversations.

I'll be honest, there was something about that journey, both time of life, stage of life, nature of product, nature of team, you know, and just the stars beyond aligned.

And for those of you who don't know, I actually have one, so grab it really quick.

So for anyone watching, not just listening, but so this was the original Slingbox.

In fact, this was unit number 41.

So the first unit's come off the production shelves.

And what the Slingbox would let you do is you would connect it.

This is really for the young kids.

This was a cable coax connector.

And so this would connect to your cable feed, your satellite feed, or maybe a TiVo.

You have an Internet connection.

The first version wasn't even wireless.

And between simply those two connections, we would allow you to watch your home TV feed over the Internet on any device, anywhere in the world.

Which now sounds like duh.

There was no YouTube.

There was no forget the apps, right?

So it was really the first way you could legitimately experience streaming television content over, you know, on the Internet.

And the founders were these guys, Blake and Jason Kerkorian.

Blake, unfortunately, passed away a few years back.

Jason and I are still in touch.

I mean, a whole team is still in touch in different ways.

The team was 11 people.

11 people.

Now, we had outsourced engineering on the back end.

We had a bunch of.

There were more people in the picture.

But when I think about, like, what you can do with a small number of people and every single person there, like, it was the perfect startup map where there was, like, if we were two people, the overlap was like the tiniest shred.

Just enough for me to be like, here.

I took the ball this far, you take it next.

None of us would ever.

It was never a question who.

No one was, like, fighting for the ego of being the decision maker on that, or it was just amazing.

And the vibe was great and the team was great, and it was just one of my favorite experiences of my life.

And I will.

I will say possibly the only thing that is the only things that have vied for hire are the startups I've done myself, because they're.

It's sort of my ship.

But, you know those times where, like, I'd rather be the first mate on the.

Maybe not the Titanic, but like the QE2 or something.

I'd rather be the first mate on the QE2 than the captain of the Titanic.

You know what I mean?

Or even just having my own rowboat.

I think that would probably be a good.

Good kind of analogy.

It was just.

It was just wonderful.

I love hearing that.

Where did you set it up?

Was it Silicon Valley?

Yeah.

We were based in San Mateo.

So we had a hardware engineering team in Bangalore.

There was about 20 people that were building the actual, the, the, the boards and the, all the deep tech that goes inside.

I'm not going to bore everybody with all that.

And then we had our team of 11 in the US doing all the front end engineering, the server level stuff, et cetera, plus product marketing, fundraising, et cetera.

And then how long, how long did it go?

You know, from founding to whatever the exit was, how long was that period?

So the company was founded in.

Let me, let me make sure I get this right.

So I was the first hired employee.

I went in there at that time.

And then our product came to market in late 05 and I mean we could Google it.

But somewhere in, somewhere in late 07 the company was acquired by Dish Networks or EchoStar which is obviously now merged with DirecTV and all that.

But that was an exit somewhere in the 400ish million range.

And so that at first was bring the Sling platform into the Dish platform.

It's just as it was.

It slowly migrated to put the Sling technology right into the set top box.

Picture yourself back in 07, 08 being able to buy a satellite box for it goes in your living room but you can also then watch it all over the Internet, which again at the time was, was, was fairly special.

That slowly shifted into what is now Sling tv.

So anyone out there who is a Sling TV subscriber, same old Sling that, that we started with our little hardware gizmo quite a few moons ago and it's a great experience.

And what's crazy is if, you know, again, if anyone watching.

Oh, let me see if I can get this right up to the, to the camera.

Right.

If you, if you can rec.

If there's probably a lot about that logo that looks similar.

It's not the same obviously, but that's, that was us, that's what we did.

So if you in, in the space that you've, you're currently in, you know, market space you're currently in.

Is there a dirty little secret, something really broken, really really not, not good that you're willing to say on?

Sure.

I think there's a, there's a lot of interesting things happening in the world of sort of video and video marketing today.

I think the one I sort of teased out at the beginning that I think would blow people's minds if you really start to think what it means is 70% of businesses aren't using video marketing today like that to me is just a like, what are these companies doing?

Kind of thing.

But I understand also why.

And there's a few reasons.

Not just the tooling, it's also understanding all of the context around it.

But I actually think it roots itself deeper.

And so this is, I think, a less hidden secret.

But there's been a saying in advertising to, since the dawn of advertising of basically 50% of every dollar spent is thrown out, but nobody knows which 50.

Right.

That, that, that was sort of an insider term back, you know, pre.

All the digital.

Now in the digital world, it's changed a lot because you can track clicks and all of these things.

When you run, for example, a Super bowl ad coming up in the next little while here, there's no data, right?

They, they.

We know how many people watch the thing.

We know how many people this and the company's reporting.

But the truth is it's sort of a big crapshoot, right?

And people still don't know.

So I think what's fascinating is that we're in this industry that is so polished and there's so much money in and there's so much activity and interest and facets to it, and yet there's so much inside of it where a lot of us might be like, yeah, no, we don't, we don't.

We're not really sure.

We don't know.

We don't.

Nobody, nobody puts out a Super bowl ad and doesn't think it's going to be a success.

Right?

Like, and then when you get the annual, like, these ones did the best and these were the dumbest and these were the.

This.

Everybody went into that thinking they had the best one.

Right?

So I think it's a fascinating world where there's both tremendous amounts of subjectivity, tremendous amounts of objectivity, and a lot of missing tools to make the real ecosystem work.

I think when we look back on video marketing in 20, I'm gonna have to get this right.

25.

Like, I can't believe companies were approaching it this way.

Right.

I think that that's part of it.

I think we're gonna look back and say it was incredibly primitive to not have the kind of analytics that you're, you're talking about.

And I don't understand why we still, the statement you just made is still true about, you know, the Super Bowl.

They should know exactly what happened from that ad and then they can find out why, how to fix it, right?

How to make it better.

I mean, they spend so much money on that, on the ads for that thing.

I mean, you mentioned the Super Bowl.

So I don't mean for this to sound self serving because there's plenty of other options than Augie, but part of our whole premise is go produce a lot of stuff and go test it in different markets and figure out what's working before you spend a lot of money, right?

Use Augie or one of the other AI video assisting kind of tools that's out there.

Use, try something and then go spend a hundred grand or a million or whatever.

Like start by spending a hundred, not a hundred grand.

And it sort of leads into just how slowly the media industry really has reacted to the Internet.

Right?

There's still like, I can't remember when the interview happened, but there was an interview with like Chuck Lorre, the, the, the TV producer.

He's still making shows.

That guy, he's been making shows since the 70s, okay.

And people will tell you he just gets it.

He knows from this like he, his likelihood to make a show that people will want to watch and cast it, right?

And know the right.

Like, like he still maintains some of the control.

I mean, I don't know if that's still to this day last, my last update was a few years back.

But there is something to be said for we have an industry that is based on a lot of individual egos.

A lot of people who have always made decisions from the gut from, you know, thought what they think.

Like a director of a movie has a vision, right?

And all of you know, a director of a Super bowl has a vision.

And only now are we starting to enter this era where I like your vision, but I like my data a little more, right?

If my data shows me that making ads for my brand would do better by using all animated clips or all memes or all, you know, finding influencers to do the, hey, you gotta buy the thing.

Whatever that answer is gonna be, I guarantee you it's not the first thing that was in my head, no matter how smart I am, right?

Why isn't there more ab testing of video content?

Why are we not having dynamic insertions more effectively?

Why is tracking still such a mess?

So I think you're right.

We're going to look back and be like, how do we get anything done?

You know?

Okay, so here's a statement that's completely non controversial, which is it takes grit to do what we are doing.

I don't mean this podcast, I mean startups and where does yours come from?

You know, I've been asked that question a couple times.

I've never had a good answer.

I was, I was speaking at a panel on entrepreneurship over the summer and someone came up to me afterwards.

He's like, you know, I'm trying to do a startup and I'm listening to you talk and I'm, I'm kind of hearing your energy, how, you know, where does it come from?

And my honest answer was, I said, I'm not quite sure.

But my gut feeling is if you don't have that same answer, you probably shouldn't do it, right?

I think, I think it comes from somewhere on the inside where, look, I'll bet on myself.

I believe in myself.

I believe in my ability to bet on whatever I need to do.

And if that bet is to go get a job, or that bet is go join an organization or a nonprofit, or that bet is go start a startup, I, you know, I didn't even take a job graduating college.

I started, I was consulting.

So I kind of feel like we're just wired differently, right?

We see the world through different lenses, right?

When you and I talked and we in an earlier conversation, it's like we're reacting to things, we're moving on, things we're seeing, like, oh, I want to navigate this this way and go to there.

And certainly there are times for extreme thoughtfulness and deep plan.

I just had a huge three hour planning session with one of my mentors yesterday, and I don't know if it's some of the parts, I don't know what it is, but, but I'd argue there's a certain thing.

You use the word grit.

That is one of my favorite words, by the way.

Where.

And it's not to say there's not gritty people at big companies.

There's plenty of them.

I think it's just sort of a slight shift in the wiring.

Like, I remember being in high school and this was the era of like Nintendo video games and you know, a Nintendo cartridge in like the late 80s was like 60 bucks or 50 bucks, which is interesting because that's roughly how much a video game is still today.

I remember I would get that cartridge and you play your butt up and if you're as old as you, I think you also recognize you blow in the cartridge when it wasn't working and all those kind of things.

And I got to this point where I finished some of the games.

I was like, I know what I'm going to do.

I'm going to rent my games out to other kids in school.

I was like 15.

I don't know why that came to me and not some other kid, I think.

So I go all the way back to.

I think we're just sort of wired differently the same way.

Look, I had an employee who worked for me at CBS Interactive.

Great guy.

And in my first, you know, onboarding as the team lead and I was starting to meet all of the product org, I was like, where?

You know, one of my first questions, where do you want to be in one year, five years and 10 years?

Just, I want to know where you want to be.

Because if, if you want my job one day, I need to know that, right?

And, and figure out how to get it to you.

That's sort of my logic is, you want to be this guy, great, you can have it.

I'll go do something else when, when I can, right?

And so he said, actually, I like what I'm doing.

I just want to do this.

I don't want more responsibility, I don't need to be paid more, I don't want more headaches, I don't want other things.

This is what I want.

And so I said, great, no problem, we got you.

But I don't understand that, right?

I know how, I know how to work with that guy.

And again, one of my favorite people to work with, but I don't understand it and I don't know how to understand it.

Probably the same way he would look at my day or whatever and be like, how do you do this?

You know, it's just sort of a different thing.

But in your startups, I'm sure.

But tell me if this is true, that everything didn't always go smoothly and you had some hiccups or maybe disasters, but just think about one.

And of course this, you know, it's also true if you have grit and you apply it to your business life, well, that you've got grit when you turn the other way in terms of your relationships and your family life and, and, and, and whatnot.

And that doesn't always go smoothly.

I mean, I.

Anyway, I was just asking for a, you know, not for a long answer, but a short answer of, you know, where did you, how did you find the strength to deal with the crisis, not succumb to it, pivot, do whatever you need to do and keep going?

You know, and that's sort of the kind of grit I look for.

Sure.

Start people.

First of all, that's a great question.

My reaction is, you know, I think I get the grit to bring.

Bring it back home from home.

I, you know, if some devastating news, like, I'm trying to remember my last startup because, know, some things went great, some things were not great, right?

And by the time we were nearing the end of it, I.

I had had kids and they were getting older, a lot of fun.

And to be honest, like, the bad days would actually get washed out because my kids were the right age, that they were so much fun that it'd be like, you know, when.

A little.

When.

When you're.

When your little boy or girl runs, Sees you come into the door and runs at you like, daddy's home.

Like, if you need a re.

If that's not a recharge, you know, I don't know what to say about that.

But for me, those were the things I was like, oh, this is why I do this.

I do this because I want to come home and share my stories and talk about the weird things that happened in my.

My day and whatever it might have been and renew and refresh and rebuild from my personal life.

Now, that is a great answer.

Okay, well, then that's.

That's how I roll.

You know, I also.

I'm an extremely transparent person.

I'm not quite like that utter radical candor, but, like, pretty darn close.

And so I've built certain friendships where I can just talk about anything.

And so those things also help me.

I have the friends that I can look at and be like, I don't know if my startup's gonna make it, man.

I don't know if I'm gonna have to lay everybody off one day.

We're not getting the thing we need to get, or this isn't working.

And I have those friends who can hear me and be like, wow, that.

That's gotta be pretty tough.

And then lastly, I think is co founders.

I think my.

My third sort of.

So it's like family, friends and co founders, like, if you're starting a startup.

And I think this is why investors don't like solo founders, is that, you know, JT and myself, we will talk 40 times a day on that, you know, or.

Or four.

Depends what's going on.

But we're there for each other, right?

Like.

Like, I can start a day and be like, how you doing, man?

He's like, not great.

Like, I know what you mean.

And we can just talk about that for a moment because he's going to take some of my, he's going to, he's going to get recharged a little from me and I'm going to get recharged a little from him.

Be there for each other.

So I think it, I think it's, I think that's, it was a really good question.

I think that's sort of what, what comes to my head.

I don't have to always have perfect 110% motivation, energy, blah, blah, blah.

I can have days where I'm like, God, you know, WarnerMedia was a pretty good gig, you know, or whatever it was, and, and let that be a thing.

But by having that transparency around it and being comfortable saying that allowed to a friend or family or coworker or whatever it might be, helps get through it faster, right?

My only advice to any entrepreneurs who's, who's listening or watching right now is you can't bottle it up.

It's just not going to work.

Sooner or later, there's too much, you said it, right?

Like this is roller coaster land, right?

You go, you go through valleys.

You know, I would say startup entrepreneurs probably have more rejection than, you know, 17 year old me trying to go to the pot, right?

Like there's, there's, it's a hard, hard job that is constant setbacks.

So if you don't have the facilities and resources around you of how to get over those, they're gonna, they're gonna stop you in your tracks every time.

Well, you're, you're right that our listeners are startup founders or wannabe startup founders.

And so these kinds of explanations are speaking right to our core audience.

Well, if you're out there and you're in, you're having your own founder slump or just felt overwhelmed or didn't want to get out of bed that day, maybe don't get out of bed that day.

Like, that's the other thing.

Like we're all humans and like self.

I hope I don't sound preachy, but I've got really into like podcasts and whatnot about like self care and self acceptance and like, yeah, I can't be perfect every day.

And, and by the way, also for all you out there, don't ask, don't, don't take investments from people who expect that of you, right?

Because you're going to have down days.

You are a human, not a robot, right?

So the good news is you'll have up days.

And I think startup people are up days are upper than most other people's days.

You know, I, I hope you keep doing this and helping other startup people on their paths because I, you know, I listen, I did listen to some of your older episodes and there's great content in there.

And so thanks for having me on.

It's been a real pleasure.

That's a wrap.

Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of the Designing Successful Startups podcast.

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This is Jothi Rosenberg saying TTFN Tata for now.