Hilary Blair original audio

Perry: Welcome to the Potential Leader Lab. And I'm your host, Perry Maughmer. Today I am very excited and so looking forward to introducing our guest and speaking with Hilary Blair. Hilary is the Founder and CEO of ARTiculate Real&Clear where Hilary and her team work with high-achieving, self-aware individuals and teams that want to make a shift and are ready to receive real feedback on their communication and presence. Welcome, Hilary.

Hilary: Delighted to be here.

Perry: So I thought I'd start off with this question based on what I just read, which is how many people are actually ready for what you determine as real feedback.

Hilary: I immediately say almost all of them if I set it up correctly. So I always think it's on the trainer, the teacher facilitator to create that container that then allows exploration. So if I set it up correctly, I do think most people, not everyone, and we all have our own backstory and coming with things and ideas when we come into spaces where we're to learn. If I set it up correctly, then what I'm doing is helping people get real feedback on the idea that they may be blocking who they really are. And I have seen time and time again the delight on someone's face when it's like, No, we're not going to change you. We want you to be more you. How do we bring you in? And to me, that's real feedback. It's like, okay, I'm seeing you and I'm seeing all the stuff in the way of you getting to be who you are.

Perry: Okay. And think and obviously I've seen you at work, I've experienced it and I've seen that. And I just think there are some times when people have a dissonance with what they believe and back to the self-aware piece, because you actually call out self-awareness and think there's people who want to say and believe they're self aware. And then there's and I read one point, there's there are two types of self awareness There's I know me right. And then I also know how other people perceive me and I can do one or either or neither.

Hilary: So that's good. That's excellent. And. Perry Absolutely. I have seen so many people close off or get worried. And I think there are so many things that trainer, speaker, trainer, consultants, people like me who've been doing this, who bring all the multiple skills together. And I, I have seen that as well. And sometimes I see like it's like a I see a, an injured animal or something, right? And I'm coming. And if I come at it correctly, I feel like I can connect in a way and not always right. So not always. It depends how many defenses are there. I think that there is a history of feedback and feedback being correcting people versus feedback, being freeing people. And I think there's been so much of. This idea that there's one mold, there's one way to be. And so I am coming in to get you to be that way, to be that kind of leader versus you're this kind of person. How do we free you up and allow you to show up as that person? You are being a leader. And I think we come from our sports theatre music background having received a lot of feedback. So I think we come in often if we've had good coaches, right, we come in open and then I think when we're in the business world, something we get, we get slammed or shut down at some point. And me too, let me tell you, I have the same adrenaline rush when I can feel that feedback's coming with like it, you know, that's wrong. This is right.

Perry: Yeah, and I think that's a really great point too. I think we do have a tendency and talk about I talk a lot with people about judging and that, you know, we can't and I tell them we can't live, love or learn if we're judging. Yeah. And so I think we do have a tendency to look at things binarily like when in the business world they're coming at, it's either good, bad, right, wrong. Black, white, you know, so to your point, it's we can't we oftentimes don't hear it and go, hmm, you know it was so and this the other thing about feedback and I'm going to I jumped right in I'm going to circle back so we can hear more about articulate real and clear. But just I had somebody tell me one time we did an assessment and there was a ton of feedback on it and the coach said, Here's what I want you to do. I want you to get a red, a yellow and a green highlighter, okay? And I want you to highlight the stuff in green that you agree with and want to change. I want you to highlight stuff in yellow that you have to investigate. And then I want you to highlight the stuff in red that you're just going to flat out ignore because it's up to you. You can take it or not take it. It isn't right. It isn't wrong you but you can choose.

Hilary: The right start, stop, continue all those kinds of things. And to your point about the not like being in that judgment zone that what you just said is a great expansion. On that thought, like a little deeper dive on what you're saying is that is a judgment that's about where am I? My self-awareness thing. I have to be discerning. Let's say it's discerning. Right. And that that great distinction between judgment and discerning. And I think that when we're in judge mode, that real heavy, this is right, this is wrong. I'm out of here. That it isn't. There's lacking self-awareness and environmental awareness like, wait a minute. If we're looking at judgment as an awareness of what's going on versus judgment of I'm going to you know, I'm going to just shut down and not be connected to what's happening, There's a big difference there. And I know you as a coach, right, You're your biggest intention is to guide people, help them come out of wherever they are. And I know we share that. It can be super frustrating when all they see is destruction. Wall stop sign, all of that, and you're like, No, no, no, no, no, wait. Come past, come around that. Yes. So be open. And we're trying to figure out what are the words that invite them to come around, the fear come around what they only see as danger.

Perry: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, too, it's all what they're who they're there to serve, right? So yeah, you know, with, with Maslow, you know, the self-actualization, right. So Maslow later in his life said early Self-Transcendence was the goal to move beyond ourselves and think, think if we're looking at it from me like that, when I'm getting feedback, it's about me, Then I have a tendency to shut down. But if I'm actually trying to serve others better by my behavior, then I should be. It should be open season, right? It's like I'm taking whatever I can get because it helps me help other people.

Hilary: And that is exactly where we hang out. And why we resonate with you is because it's all about the relationship, right? So we can do all the fixing we want, but it has to be in service of connecting with another human being because do I even need all that feedback if I'm just hanging out with myself? Right. It's really it's in that relationship. Yeah.

Perry: Well, and I think and the last thing just I don't think I've shared this with you. I've been I've been doing some, some thought around this. And so to get your feedback on I think that the word lead and manage should never be a noun. They should always be verbs.

Hilary: Yes.

Perry: Because think once they turn into a label or a job or a role, is that that's when we that's when we have a tendency to absorb it. We get labeled as that. So now, now I have to do something. Whereas if I always view it as an activity. I can shift in and out of it. And it's just something I do, not something I am.

Hilary: It's complete alignment, right? The idea that communication and presence are our verbs, right? They are always in action. And I liken them to balance. And maybe it would be the same thing with manage and lead, right? That balance, you're always adjusting little things in order to remain in balance and in order to lead. I have to adjust things all the time and to manage, I have to be taking in information, adjusting for balance its little muscles and my connection to the environment. And yeah, I am strongly with you on that. That is. Yeah. And I do think people put it almost as a destination. So then people think they're, they're like, I got the, I got the job therefore. I am a manager. Therefore I manage. I am a leader. Therefore I lead. I'm like, Oh no. Once you get there, that's when it just starts.

Perry: Yeah, well, Servant said, Right, The journey is the end. It's I do think it's not as much the goal but who we become along the way to achieve it. Yeah right absolutely it's about that so. Well let's back up now that we got, you know, down that rabbit hole thanks to me but. Oh it's good. So tell us, tell us a little bit about you and how you came to create ARTiculate Real&Clear and how and how you see the impact, like how it's taken off.

Hilary: I would never have created ARTiculate Real&Clear had I not met a visionary. I was fully entrenched in being a drama acting that arts teacher arts for art's sake. Also arts integration, very much using the arts in other environments to help people expand and grow. And I was happily ensconced in my little artist world and I was in a play, a play for children, which I love. I love theatre for youth and it's called Tomato Plant Girl. I was tomato plant girl, so therefore I was a small sprout that came out of the ground eating Oreos for dirt, of course, right, coming out. And then I grew into a giant tomato. The other two characters were bossy, best friend and little girl, a great show about friendship and about all the things that you do. Perry, which is helping people become their best selves and stand up for themselves. After the show, I was standing in the little actor line, shaking little hands. That's what we do, right? I'm shaking little hands. An adult comes by and I see this, you know, taller body and this person says, Do you work with business people? In my head, I am like, I am a tomato at the moment and I'm feeling super uncomfortable and out loud.

Hilary: I said some. I probably squeaked it out with some odd voice and this voice said, I want you to contact me. When you've worked with Moore. And Tucker tucked her card right into my costume, I was like, What is this? I go back. I was working at a theater at the time and people started calling like the next day, right? Because now I started seeing You mentioned red cars. Now I'm seeing red cars, right? So people started calling and saying, hey, do you work with business people? I'm like, Yes, I do. And I worked with and practiced for like five months because as an acting teacher, I learned very quickly, Perry, that you don't have a CEO walk in and ask them to lie down on the floor to see how they're breathing. So that is an acting thing, big time. That doesn't work well with CEOs. And so I started practicing how do I work with these people and what are what's what did this woman have in mind? Five months later, I called her. She said, Come to New York. I flew to New York. And basically I auditioned for her because she saw a tomato and thought, that woman is bringing skills, techniques, discipline that I can use for my women entrepreneurs in their pitches.

Hilary: So I then became a pitch coach for Make Mine $1 million business for Count Me In for women's economic independence and flew crisscrossing the US for the next six seven years working with entrepreneurs on how they told their story. And I learned I, I got rid of the chip on my shoulder against business people that they were all money grubbing, horrible humans. And I realized that no, really, they're they are passionate, driven people as well. They come at things from a different angle. And I fell in love with business. So the nutshell of that is a visionary saw tomato and thought, Oh, the acting world, the art world has something that frees business people to share their voice more effectively and more efficiently. And you know that woman? I know that woman. Her name is Nell Merlino, and she is the woman who co-founded Take Our Daughters to Work Day. So she is truly a visionary. And that's what I hope to carry into the world, is be visionary for others to see who they are in the world and help them. She peeled back all the layers and helped me be more of who I am, and that's how articulate got founded.

Perry: That's an awesome story. Thanks for sharing it.

Hilary: Yeah, Thank you. Love it. Love it. Right. Totally changed my life. Totally changed my life. Of course. Yeah.

Perry: Well, that's what people do, right? It's just those. It's those. It's those opportunities that some people pass by and some people don't, because she didn't have to say anything, Right?

Hilary: Right. And I didn't have to call her. Right, Right. I didn't have to say whatever. I was a tomato. Right. I could have I could have just kept going. Yes. Right. Yeah.

Perry: Well, that kind of leads to the second question. So you use the term authenticity on your site and a lot in your discussions. And when you talk to people, it's about, you know, releasing the authentic person. So what do you from your standpoint, what is authenticity? And then how does it impact organizations and humans?

Hilary: You know, I wrestle with what that term means myself, so I'm open to lots of discussion around it. For me, it means be who you are. And I guess the thing is, how is it different from vulnerability or available availability? And all these words can kind of get lumped together and I want to make sure they're distinct. So authenticity for me is being true to your true energy, your voice, who you are in the world, some of it being intentional, who you want to be. Some of authenticity is getting to be friends with those parts of yourself that you might not be thrilled with, right? You're like, okay, that's still my authentic self. And there are a lot of elements of values in there too, which can be a helpful word. So and it's different for me. Then when people say you need to bring your whole self to work, I just want to say that because I don't think that that's a great discussion. And more and more articles are coming out. When I first heard that, I'm like, Really? There are plenty of places I don't want to bring my whole self.

Hilary: There are very few places that I bring my whole self because I don't have to reveal my whole being all the time. So being authentic also has. That sense of self. Choice of how much I want to share, and yet I am sharing who I authentically am and what parts work where we are so multifaceted. And when we think that by not showing something, we're not being authentic. I think we are underestimating ourselves. I don't have to show all of me to still be authentic because there are so many elements to me and I show up in many different ways, in many different places. I can also be fake. That is different, right? We can all put on the fake thing, too. And that's part of the journey in life is discerning when what's what are the authentic parts of me and when am I putting on a mask? Right? That may be hiding part of me. And so I think authenticity is a tricky word. And for me, the complexity of authenticity is another reason to dive in, not a reason to avoid it.

Perry: And I love the term I just and I like that you brought up choice, right? So I think that as long as we're and the fact that you focused it on I have to I can know my authentic self. It doesn't give me justification to share it with everybody and then just say, well, that's just me, right? Because when I work with people, that's what I that's a big part of. It's like we get to choose like behavior is a choice, right? And so no matter who we, who we're comfortable because don't, don't believe personality is hardwired. So I think that we grow to a certain point where something's comfortable, like we're comfortable being this person. Right? And then we have to ask ourselves, is that serving all of those around me, is it serving me and those people I care about to the highest value, Right? If it's not, then I can choose to be different. And I think that to your point, I have to know who I am. I have to know what's comfortable for me. Yeah. Then I can make a choice.

Hilary: Yeah, right. I had a silly thing coming. Someone mentioned to me once they were making a very funny analogy which made me laugh. And I'm thinking of it right now. Perry So it is not at the level that we are. It's a little more juvenile. But they said they said it's authentic, that I have to burp after I have onions. It is a choice whether I burp loudly and openly in front of you or whether I turn my head. And I was like, that's really great. It's a funny analogy and yet awesome, right? I get to have a choice. Yeah, well, that works. Well, it's kind of on the simplified it. Yeah, right. It's like this body idea and yet it really I still have to burp, right? Where do I burp? Yeah.

Perry: It makes it. It makes it clear.

Hilary: It made me laugh. I was like, that's good. Yes. Yeah. And when we get deeper about that, to your point, what, there are parts of ourselves that may be not land as well. If we're thinking about onion breath may not land as well. And do we need to bring that into the situation? Can I still be authentic by sharing that elsewhere and bringing other parts of myself?

Perry: But I think that's true. Not to not to divert, but that's also part of I think it's one of your values for your company is to own your awkwardness, right? So that when it doesn't land well, but being okay with that and just being like, Oh, that didn't work, I'm not going to do that again. But not, not feeling, you know, being awkward but being okay with it.

Hilary: Yeah, I. You know, I feel that we have over-waited for leadership, for management, for being humans in the world, being comfortable. I think we put a lot of words together into one place. And I'm noticing that over and over again. I think that imposter syndrome does it. I think that jargon does it. We take these words and then they're like magnets. They collect all these other words instead of allowing for the differences. So that idea, that confidence and comfort, they are very separate items. So you get to be confident and awkward, right? We get to own both of those elements and I get to be uncomfortable and confident. And so often in the I don't know why I'm curious about it. I keep writing about it. Is it that we're trying to streamline things? Is it we're trying to make things simpler? I think sometimes simple is important and yet sometimes there are words that we can create and use. Let's talk about jargon that can expand and bring insight and beauty to our discussions. If we keep simplifying instead of exploring language, I think we miss an opportunity. And. When we keep saying, please come back to the language that everyone can understand.

Hilary: I completely agree. And how about we keep introducing imagery and ideas in other ways to describe things without it being wrong and. With imposter syndrome. Everything gets lumped into that. I'm uncomfortable, I'm nervous, I'm insecure. I'm like anything where I feel slightly even a little bit awkward. Now I have imposter syndrome, right? And then we just put everything in there versus separating those out and going imposter syndrome is something allow that to be that. You can be uncomfortable, you can be insecure, you can be all kinds of things. And it doesn't mean you have to have imposter syndrome. Right? And the same thing with jargon. There can be these beautiful explorations of words and images that work to connect more effectively with other people. If we keep saying everything, this jargon is bad. For one thing, we start shaming people, which I am not happy about. Yeah. So I think that to your to I have expanded now on the idea of awkward and comfort is I'm trying to open things up again and have us look at the detail not to make it more complicated, but to allow it to be multifaceted. Just like us. We are multifaceted and.

Perry: Yeah, I think it was, you know, words create worlds, right? Yeah. That's, you know, and I think that it is important to one of the things that I picked up when you when we use these words and it came out of watching you work was that we also have to make sure we're having a shared definition of the word because we run on these. We're and I think part of this is this is our culture is fat speed, right? Everything's got to be done quickly. So we just gloss over when we use some of these terms and think that we're talking about the same thing, when in fact we have entirely different perceptions about what that word means and what it should show up like.

Hilary: And our and our history with it, our experience with it all. There's so much that goes with words and that words create worlds is from multiple religious tomes for thousands of years. So it's been around a long time and I love it because of that. And we invite I was just thinking, we'll often invite people to, hey, can I double click on that? Now someone listening to this podcast just got irritated by me saying, Can I double click on that? For me, I love the imagery because I'm at a computer a lot and I double click on something. It opens up the folder and I go deeper. So double clicking on it can be helpful. Sometimes we use images like that and it isn't, or we've now been trained to not like when people use jargon. I was raised on Shakespeare and that guy invented a lot of words and colorful exploration for expletives as well as for creating handbag and eyeball and, you know, all these words that he helped explore. I find using language incredibly creative. So if double clicking on a word or asking, Hey, what do you mean by that? Sometimes if I ask you, Hey, can I double click on that, that may feel less offensive.

Hilary: That may that language has been more of an invitation. Let's dive in together versus what do you mean by that? Like that. I think why we invent some of these other phrases is it's more about the word versus you, Right? And hey, you use that word. How do how does it manifest in your world? I mean, it's harder to say than some of the ideas like, hey, how do you define that? What's going on there? And by saying, let's double click on that. I think it if we're talking about relationship, it opens up that discussion of diving in together and. I. We have to be curious. We have to understand that people I mean, it can be so many words. I have been delightfully surprised when what I say is we take off and my intention is to land at this airport and I am like landing in a completely different airport because of some word I use. I'm like, wow, how did that end up there? Right? And being aware of that. Yeah, yeah.

Perry: So in in the work that you do since you've been doing it with folks for quite some time now. Yeah. Where where do you find people have their where do you find the struggle? Where do you find the pushback? Where do you find where they intellectually they're like, yeah, I want to do this and I need this and I want to, I want to. And then when you start getting into it, then the emotional side of the pushback and the resistance. And where does that come?

Hilary: Two main places, fear of what's on the other side. And probably fear is connected to some history with being redirected. And the other is we're all tired. So I think that I think that there is also a genuine energy of wow, that I'm trying to handle all of these things in my business. And now you're suggesting something that might pull on my who I am, and that does take energy On the other side of it. My complete and sincere belief is that it makes things more efficient and easier. Like that's the belief if we're moving, if we spend time to figure out what that word is that we're talking about, we'll save time down the road. If I figure out how to actually breathe and use my whole voice and show up as a full person, it will save time down the road. I think that. They're all I don't know. I usually try not to say all, and I just said all. Many of us have created walls that keep us safe, and much of the work that we do is tapping on those walls and asking to find the little gate to open or the door to open or to drop the wall down.

Hilary: And sometimes that fear is so ingrained in us that you I don't want you to see me. I'm bad. I mean, people have really bad impressions of themselves, right? And I do. I mean, I know I've got all the history and all the words that I've heard, so I do want to hide parts of myself. And then you ask me to bring it forward. My job is to make sure that there is a celebration of whomever that is. I just worked with some of the other day and they were well, I'm I come across as sharp and I'm like, Yes, great. Okay. That's a fabulous part of you. Instead of trying to not be sharp, let's figure out how your sharpness works to make really clear incisions into what's going on and you become a surgeon. That's wonderful. Instead of trying to dull who you are and that fear of I've been told these parts of myself are bad. That's the one thing. And then I really want to emphasize the tired I'm doing the thing I'm doing because I don't have enough energy. I can't pause right now to go there. Those are my two.

Perry: Yeah, The energy thing is amazing because I think it takes so much work to work on ourselves, right? And it's a heavy lift. And yeah, and I do think people have to there's a capacity and I think capacity and readiness. Right? So for people to understand and it's okay like, you know, if somebody says, hey, I'm just not I don't I can't do that right now, it's like, all right, let's we'll put it over here. You let me know when you want to get back to that. Yeah, right. It isn't. Nobody's forcing. I love the term. What is it? It's a non-consensual coaching. You know, when when you are, you know, when you have that response. Right. So I do it. I use that term very specifically because it gets that response like, oh, everybody gets that. It's like I tell people all the time, like, don't do non-consensual coaching. It's not appropriate, right? Not at all. And right. And so I think there is a there is a readiness and a capacity thing that people have to be aware of themselves. And it's okay to hold your hand up and go, hey, just right. That's not it. Right now. I can't do it.

Hilary: I love that I've been now having people practice because I come into the space. Right. And I'm going to ask you, are you open to some feedback? And guess what you get to say to me? And they are like, I go, No, you get to say no to me. Because we empower givers of feedback and I'm the guest and we don't empower receivers of feedback. And, you know, I've been on this, this, this little little soapbox that comes up for sure and I have them practice putting that hand up. I love that. Perry that you put the hand up. I said, Everyone, I'm going to talk and I want you to do this. You don't even have to use words to tell me No, you can just put your hand up. And I had one guy look at me. He goes, I cannot do that to you. And I go, I know and I want you to. And he's like, Oh my goodness, right? I can't do that. So we practice it to empower people to be self aware enough to know I can't handle that right now. Right. And even they can say yes, and then I'm giving feedback and they can be like, not now. And to your point, super important has to be consensual and it can't be polite. Consensual. Yeah, I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to say yes. So, of course, this woman's coming into our, you know, training, and we're doing this. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for that. I love that non-consensual. I'm going to. I'm going to shop that. I don't call it stealing. I call it shopping. And I learned that from one of my fabulous colleagues. I'm going to shop. That looks good on you. We'll look good on my workshops.

Perry: Yeah, Yeah. Just I tell people no is a complete sentence. Yes. Like you don't. You don't have to know. And you don't have to tell. You don't explain it. No. Is fine. Like in this context. No is sufficient. I'll move on.

Hilary: Yes. Yes.

Perry: All right. So. So this leads me into the next this piece that I. So I'm a fan of existentialism, so I do believe this. And I think that it's an interesting question to ask somebody with your background in acting. So I believe people I believe humans act their way into being. Yeah, like we come from nothing and we can create as we go, right? We're never static. And that's why I came up with this explore experiment, evolve process that I use with people because that evolution I use, you know, I was an English major, so I'm very specific about the words I use, right? So evolve isn't change. I don't evolution is a process that never stops. And so I believe that's the journey we're on and we can act our way into that being. So how do you respond or think or frame that?

Hilary: I don't think I'm as intelligent and brilliant as you. So I will go from a slightly lower, little shallower level because I respond when I hear you say that, because I'm an actor, because of that idea. And acting is about being truthful in the moment. It's not about being fake. That's why people go back to school to learn how to act and figure out how to get back to that sense of how do I take a moment and be really present in that moment And. This idea of presence in the model that we use, It has to have ideas and then you have to try it on, you have to apply it, you have to practice it. So for me, there's that element of the act in it as well is I can think it here, but until I act on it or try it, I have no idea. We can learn about soccer by reading about it, and we can learn about a musical instrument by reading about it or watching YouTube until we try it on and practice it and act on it. It's still just an idea. So the giant word we use for that, of course, is embodiment. So acting is embodying those concepts.

Perry: So that's why that's why the piece of the middle piece of that process for me is experiment. Because I. Yeah. And again, I tell people, I'm like, look, you're going to experiment with behavior. Yes, Right. So I don't I don't like the way this works. I don't like the way this the response this elicits. Like, I'm not I believe that leadership is about creating a better world for those we care about. Right? So if that's my driver and things aren't working, then I have to try something new. Well, for anybody who's tried a new behavior, like I'm if I'm going to respond to somebody differently and I use my I use my wife, right. So we've been married 32 years. And if I get this, I think it's called always already Listening. Right? So we get in the conversation and I've actually there have been times when she said something to me, I would have normally said X, but I said Y. She responded to X. Her response was what I normally would have said and I had to go time out. I said, I didn't say that. She goes, Yeah, you did. I go, I didn't. I didn't say that. Right? So it being in the moment and being able to to be curious enough and own my awkwardness enough to go, okay, I'm not I'm going to act a different way now and it's probably not going to work the first ten times I do it. Yeah, but I but I have to keep doing it because that's the that's the vision of myself. I see that I want to be in the world.

Hilary: That is beautiful. And I want to point out that I didn't know, like as a listener for to you. Right. You started the answering it and I had some ideas in my head. Right. And I write I purposely write down one word. So I'm thinking about it and still staying with you. And then I realize I am doing what I hope people will do. I it's one of the tools that I share, which is I keep my tongue low in my mouth and I keep my lips slightly parted and I am breathing into listening to you versus tongue shoved through the mouth. Lips closed, ready to answer in Many of us go there and in a podcast situation. I can be like, Oh, where's it going? I want to make sure I say the right things. I want to come across. It can feel incredibly vulnerable, risky to listen and see where it goes. And I was thinking, okay, Hillary, do what you talk about. So I'm like, okay, here I am. And I thought, what came to me when you said that listening to what's happening and that she's responding, it is that idea when my tongue is shoved to the roof of the mouth and I have my lips pursed, I have already closed off to any further information versus tongue dropped, lips parted. And I think I want to, you know, just put a shout out to your wife, go. I think all of us can probably relate to, you know, being there like you, you're hearing it's also a time saver, right? We've done this before.

Hilary: We've been down this road. We're in the grooves. Oh, we're trying to get up out of those grooves. And to your point about the idea that that experiment. Right. One of my favorite directors of all time. When I was doing more of my acting, she very different than many people would think. We come in, she said, Tomorrow I want you to come with ten new ideas. The next day I want you to come with ten new ideas. We get to a problem. She says. I want you to come with ten ideas of your own, and we're going to toss them in and see which ones work. So many people think that directors, it's all from them and they're just telling people what to do. Directors are tapping into the brilliance in the room. Same with leaders, right? Tapping into the brilliance and then figuring out in my own communication, In our communication, what works. We have to be open to the possibilities. And that takes a really risky, vulnerable, awkward situation. Right? For her to say, I don't know what the best solution is for this. I want you to come in with ten ideas and we'll figure it out. I loved being directed by her. It was she was brilliant and we explored and created amazing productions together. It was great. Yeah, Well.

Perry: They always say about change, like people own what they help to create.

Hilary: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Perry: So if I help to create it, I have ownership to it. So I'm going to I'm going to work harder at it. Love it. Right. And instead of the other piece. So what I want to be cognizant of time, your time. But what if, what, if anything has surprised you about working with people in this context that you do?

Hilary: I every time. The childlike delight in people's eyes when they try something on and they realize they are more themselves. And this is adults who've been leading for a long time. I still see that six year old Joy, five year old Joy and I go, How'd that feel? And I go, Oh my gosh, it feels great. Does it feel like you? It feels like me, like at time. And I see hardened faces that are just open up and that wonder of I get to be me. Awesome.

Perry: Yeah, well, it happened in one of our meetings when I saw you speak in one of my groups. I don't know if you remember. There was a there was a lady in one of the groups and was about her hands, like she talked with her hands. And it was so amazing because the piece of that's amazing is it took nothing more than for you to give her permission, right? Like all you said was, well, why why would you stop doing that? And suddenly it was like a light clicked off. She's like, Yeah, why would I why would I stop doing that? Just because somebody told me at some point that it that I shouldn't do it. And, you know, but it's it's almost freeing for people when they start to go, wait a minute, why don't why do I do this? Why don't I do this? Why what what is the mechanism? What is the story in my head around what's right and what's wrong?

Hilary: Yeah. And I'm finding that with everyone and my people, my groups, the people who are sharp and pointy have been told they have to dull themselves or pear it. And it's the opposite. Yeah. I want them to come in. How do they get to be sharp and pointy and yeah I guess what I say is we hire people for their individual uniqueness. That's what makes us awesome. And then we get put into the system and everyone's trying to reshape us to everyone looking the same and we're losing the uniqueness that makes us an integral part of the team and how do we make sure that we celebrate those differences and figure out how they work together? I worked with one team and they let the guy know. They go, you're they are laser like. Focus on what's happening is incredibly powerful for our team. And what he had to figure out is how do I use it for good and be careful of how it may hurt people. But the only time he hurt people when he was trying not to use it versus I sometimes use Edward Scissorhands. How does Edward Scissorhands I know it's not the best movie. How does Edward Scissorhands learn how to cut hair and do wonderful things with hedges and not cut people in the process?

Perry: Yeah. When have you you know who Rick Rubin is, right? The record producer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Big beard. He Chili Peppers. Johnny Cash. Yeah. I just read his book and it was a it's a fascinating I mean, I would recommend his book for every I mean, it's a big book, but it reads the title. Um.

Hilary: I know that's.

Perry: The creative way. Okay. I think, um, but what's fascinating about it is his, his, you know, he's a record producer. Yeah. And so just hearing the stories not about the people, but just about ways he would open people up. And this one, this one just struck me and I just want to share it because it's all about approaching things differently. So the song, I think it was Roberta Flack First Time Ever I Saw Your Face. Okay, so he's getting Johnny Cash to sing that song and said He's talking to Johnny Cash. And this was on a podcast that he was on. He said, So Johnny Cash read the lyrics and he's like, And he just said, He goes, I don't like, I can't sing this song. I don't I don't relate to it. I don't have anything that I can bring to it. And Rick Rubin said, Well, what they're talking. And he said, Well, what about if you were singing it to God? And Johnny Cash just instantaneously went, Oh, I can sing this song now.

Hilary: That is beautiful, Right.

Perry: And so it's just it's that thought process of because he said sometimes people recording a song and they're not getting it. He said, So I shut all the lights off and have them recorded in the dark. And it's just being able to explore those things, right? To find a way and think, think life being open and think it's him. He defines humility as being willing to be taught by the universe. Oh.

Hilary: That's gorgeous.

Perry: Right? And it's just full of that kind of stuff. But it's just opening because he makes the comment, he goes, Everybody is creative. Yeah, everybody. It isn't a profession. It isn't a type. It's everybody can explore ways to be creative and think. We lose that in our culture, which is central to what you do because you're helping people create. Yes, right. And people. I'm not good at that or I'm not an actor. I can't do that. No, you you know, that's not what it's about. It's about the attempt. Yeah.

Speaker3: Yeah, right. Yeah.

Perry: So a little sidelight there that I thought about that because I just am so enamored with that book and listening to him talk and just the humility with which he talks about what he does and the what and all of that. He doesn't know. Like he just says, I don't I've just done this for a long time and I try lots of stuff.

Hilary: Right. Exactly. You know. Yes, yes. Yeah. Right.

Perry: So is there anything that I have missed or should have asked you?

Hilary: Ha ha. Um, is there anything. The only thing. I guess I don't know. Two things that I would say is it just because we're suggesting that it is important and all that and maybe the word exploration can be hard. It's okay to embrace the fact that risking and trying new things can be hard and hard isn't necessarily bad. And to allow yourself to try and to fail and to try again, which you've said. And I think sometimes when things are hard, we shy away in the work world because it seems like if, if it's that hard, then it's going to take too much time and that kind of thing. So it's hard to be yourself.

Perry: Yeah. And it's hard to not be yourself when you don't want to be.

Hilary: Oh, my gosh. That is perfect, though. That's perfect. We should just that's our thing right there. I'm like, It's hard to be yourself. And you're like, It's hard not to be yourself. The rest. Yes, yes.

Perry: Believe me, I know. Because I try sometimes and I don't I'm not very successful with it. And it's not the best thing at the time.

Hilary: Me too. Me too. I'm with you. Yes. So?

Perry: So where can folks find you or find out more about you?

Hilary: Our website is articulate R-c, RC is for real and clear, www.articulaterc.com and LinkedIn. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm Hilary with one l. I love connecting there and yeah, send us an email. I love connecting with people, chatting with them, answering questions, exploring and of course we love, you know, training, speaking, coaching, all of that. I love the work. I thought I would be less enthusiastic so many decades in and I seem to only get more enthusiastic, which I don't know what that means. I don't know. I love it. I love going on the journey with people, seeing them. That's awesome. Show up. Well.

Perry: I'd like to thank you for joining me and sharing that story and also like to thank you for doing the work that you do because it does impact people and it creates such opportunity for them to make the world a better place for those people they care about. And it gives them a whole nother set of tools that they never knew they needed or they didn't even know they could possess.

Hilary: Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I love it. All right.

Perry: I'd like to thank everyone for listening and remember that everyone can explore, experiment and evolve into your very best future self. Most won't. But if you do and the question you have to answer is, are you going to be one of the few? And so in the meantime, I hope to I'd like to thank you for listening as well. And until next time, take care of yourself and take care of each other.