What transpires when leadership ceases to inspire and begins to evoke solitude? This episode delves into the complex dynamics of decision-making in leadership, particularly when every choice carries the potential to disappoint. We engage in a profound dialogue with Reverend Kevin T. Taylor, whose insights elucidate that effective leadership transcends mere influence or charisma; it encompasses the critical aspect of stewardship. He posits that true leadership involves bearing the weight of authority with integrity, especially when the stakes are paramount. Our discussion invites listeners to reconsider their perceptions of leadership, emphasizing the necessity of accountability and the courage to confront difficult responsibilities. The discourse presented in this enlightening podcast episode delves into the profound complexities surrounding the nature of leadership, particularly when the exhilaration of influence wanes and the burdens of responsibility take center stage. One key inquiry posed is the emotional toll on leaders when their decisions inevitably provoke disappointment among stakeholders, regardless of the path chosen. The conversation invites listeners to consider the essence of leadership, steering them away from traditional metrics of charisma and influence towards a more nuanced understanding that positions stewardship at the forefront of effective leadership. Reverend Kevin T. Taylor, a seasoned pastor and leadership advisor, articulates that true leadership transcends motivational rhetoric and is intrinsically linked to the weighty decisions made when one's actions are cloaked from public scrutiny. He emphasizes that it is the integrity with which leaders carry their authority that ultimately defines their effectiveness, especially in high-stakes situations. Engaging with these themes, the episode seeks to challenge the audience's preconceived notions of leadership, urging a reflection on the intersection of responsibility, accountability, and the weight of decision-making in various leadership contexts, from business to community service. In exploring the intricacies of leadership, Reverend Taylor elucidates the concept of stewardship as a pivotal element that redefines traditional leadership paradigms. By invoking the parable of the talents from Matthew 25, he illustrates how leadership entails a sacred responsibility bestowed upon individuals, necessitating an accounting for the judicious use of one's gifts and talents. This perspective reframes leadership as an obligation to foster growth and development in others, rather than merely a pursuit of personal accolades or authority. The dialogue further examines the emotional and ethical ramifications leaders face, particularly in moments of personal and professional crises. Reverend Taylor shares poignant anecdotes from his own journey, navigating the tension between personal conviction and organizational demands, revealing the often unspoken challenges that accompany leadership roles. The episode culminates in a call to action for aspiring leaders to embrace their responsibilities fully, recognizing that true leadership is marked not by popularity but by the courageous execution of one's duties, even when such actions may be met with resistance or scrutiny. The episode ultimately serves as a clarion call for introspection among leaders, prompting a reevaluation of what constitutes effective leadership in contemporary society. It underscores the necessity for leaders to cultivate integrity, courage, and a commitment to accountability, especially in a landscape marked by division and distrust. Reverend Taylor's insights extend beyond mere theoretical discourse, inviting listeners to confront the uncomfortable truths associated with leadership responsibilities. As he articulates the vital importance of making difficult decisions, he urges leaders to take ownership of their roles, advocating for a leadership model rooted in service to others and the community. This thought-provoking exchange not only sheds light on the intricacies of leadership dynamics but also encourages current and aspiring leaders to embrace their calling with a renewed sense of purpose, ultimately fostering a legacy of impactful stewardship.

Takeaways:

• Leadership often becomes a lonely endeavor when it ceases to inspire others.
• Difficult decisions in leadership can lead to disappointment regardless of chosen paths.
• The essence of leadership is rooted in stewardship and accountability, not merely charisma.
• Genuine leadership requires integrity and the courage to make tough decisions in difficult times.
• The burdens of leadership are often unseen and can weigh heavily on those in authority.
• A leader must recognize that their actions and decisions have profound consequences for their communities.

Links referenced in this episode:

• revkttaylor.com
• amazon.com

What happens when leadership stops being inspiring and starts getting lonely? What do you do when the decisions in front of you will disappoint someone no matter what choice you make? Why do so many leaders struggle not.

With vision, but with responsibility? Today's guest believes leadership isn't ultimately about influence, charisma, or motivation.

It's about stewardship. It's about carrying the weight of authority with integrity when the stakes are high.

And no one else can make the decision for you.

If you're a leader in business, ministry, education, government, a nonprofit, or even your own family, this conversation may challenge the.

Way you think about leadership forever. Stay with us and enjoy this conversation.

Today's guest is Reverend Kevin T. Taylor, a pastor, leadership advisor, and author of a powerful new book, A Charge to Keep. Kevin's work sits at the intersection of faith, executive leadership, and organizational responsibility.

Through years of ministry and C suite leadership experience, he's learned that leadership is rarely defined by the speeches we give or the visions we cast. It's defined by the difficult decisions we make when nobody is watching.

In A Charge to Keep, Kevin explores the hidden weight of leadership, the burden of responsibility, and the courage to require to steward authority well.

His insights challenge leaders to think more deeply about accountability, conviction, and the profound responsibility that comes with influence. Kevin, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be with you and hello to your podcast audience as well.

Well, this should be a great conversation. I love talking to pastors about leadership, so we should have a great time.

Yes, sir.

So I'm gonna ask you my favorite question to kind of get us started, because I think every episode begins with the same question because I really want. I believe wisdom comes from the bridge that carries us through some of our life's greatest challenges.

So what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

So I'd say that the best piece of advice is in whatever organization that you are in, whether that is in the church or that is an organization which you're working in. As you are giving that organization your best, be sure to get the best that that organization has to offer.

And so that could mean you're working a job that has a 401k match. Make sure that you are contributing so that that company can contribute back to you.

It could mean that your job offers you reimbursement for education. Be sure that you are taking advantage of that opportunity. It could be that your job is offering professional development in another area.

Be sure that you take advantage of that because what you take from the organization Far is far less than what you have poured in. And so there will be a mismatch there because you are working for someone, working towards something.

But you can leave there having the better part of what it is that you needed to be able to accomplish while you're there.

That's good advice.

I like that. I like that. Giving back to whatever group you're part of. Be sure you take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of us. Love it.

So your leadership journey spans both ministry and executive leadership. What initially drew you to leadership? And how has your understanding of leadership extended or evolved over the years?

And so I think that it's true. The scriptures say that your gifts will make room for you.

And so in the fourth grade, I was the vice president of the student union in the school, the student council in the school, and in seventh grade, the Black Student Union president, and in 12th grade, the class president for our school. So leadership has been a part of who I am. Other roles that I've played in the church have been in leadership.

So ministry and leadership have gone hand in hand. And I do believe that is an area that God has gifted me in as it relates to the work in corporate and nonprofit.

I was actually a political science major at Tuskegee, and political science teaches you to think. And one of the members of my congregation in Michigan actually passed last year.

But when he saw my transcripts after my first year at Tuskege, he said, you're in the wrong major. You need to be coming working with me in accounting. So I didn't change majors. I continued.

But I picked up a math minor, and I went to work for him over two summers in General Motors auto parts supplier, as a finance person. And finance really began to. I could use that to be able to tell a story. And that is what then brought me into corporate arenas, is the.

Is my finance background. And from there, it is only a matter of time before people begin to appreciate my leadership skills.

And so while I may have been playing a bit part in the back, you know, God has moved me to the front rather quickly. And so I've. I have had numerous leadership experiences at the C suite. I've been a CEO, a cfo, interim CEO, coo, you name it.

I've done it in multiple industries. And I'm bringing that to bear both in the book and in the executive coaching that I offer A fellow HBCU grad.

I like that.

Where did you go?

Southern University.

Southern. All right.

I love it.

You know, I like this idea, and you don't Hear this often when it talks about leadership, but I love how you combined and say that stewardship is really be considered when you talk about leadership. Tell me a little bit more how you see stewardship and leadership working together.

Well, so if we look at the example, I believe it's in Matthew 25 about the man who left the talents and the responsibility that in giving 15 and 12 and 1 1, that there was something in each of them that that leader saw. And so, but he loaned it, he.

Lended it to them for a time,.

And then he came back to collect.

And so I do believe that we are in positions of power for a time, that God is giving us our responsibility that we should take seriously, and that he is going to come back and he's going to ask us for an accounting of our stewards, of how we used our gifts and skills in the roles that we are in. So you don't have to be a pastor for that to be true.

And I'm not suggesting at all that anyone's employment is time limited, though there will come a point of retirement. But the question becomes, when we get to heaven, will God be able to say to us that we used our gifts wisely?

And so of course, in the Bible, the one, the, that one that was given five talents made ten. The one that was two talents doubled his to four. And the one that had only one talent chose to bury it.

And when the man came back to collect, you know, well done, my good and faithful servant. You've been faithful over a few things.

I'll give you, I'll make you ruler over many, is what he said to the one that was, that had five talents and the one that had, that had two. But to the one that had only one, you know, he said, if you could, if you'd only put it in the bank, I could have gotten the interest from it.

Like if you, if you had just, if you had just shown up to work every day, you could have made this into something. And so when it says to, to us as leadership, that if God has gifted you in an area and in,.

In an industry, how are you using.

That to be able to bring him glory? How are you using that to be able to help somebody along the way? And if your concern is, well, I.

Don't want to ruffle any feathers, I.

Just want to be at the back of the room and, you know, fly under the radar, then that's the equivalent of you burying your head in the sand, burying the talent.

And when the Lord asks, well, what did you do.

Your only answer is, well, well, God, I just wanted to pay the mortgage.

I just wanted to get the kids through school.

I just wanted to be a bench member. You know, somebody else can do it. You know, I didn't have to tithe God. It was, we've got the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker in our.

Church, and let them be the ones to do it.

And the response there is the same that if you had just shown up, you could have brought me glory. And so I think that's where the idea of stewardship and leadership as a responsibility comes from.

And that is how I have approached the work that I have done, both in the church and without.

I'm curious, if you think back on your life, was there a defining moment for you where you really started to understand there's a certain weight to leadership?

Yeah.

So the answer is yes.

And I'm trying to pick the example that would do it because there have been at different points in time where that weight has shown up in different ways.

And so I pastored and then didn't for a while and thought that I was going to be an executive pastor and let the pastor have the responsibility, not me.

And, like, I was just so discomforted by not being in the opportunity to be able to lead that the Lord showed me that, no, this is where you need to return to. So that's an example. But another is, listen, I've been a part of organizations that have helped to grow.

So I managed $180 million worth of revenue, 29 school. Like I've done, I've put the work in, but so I've seen the growth.

But I've also had to be in a position where in one particular organization,.

We had to retract. And I'll tell you, there's nothing worse than needing to lay people off.

There's nothing worse than standing in front of a room of parents and letting them know that the school that they had entrusted their child to is now needing to close. But then you have to look at the bigger picture and say, are we acting in the best interest of the children? And while the decision may not be.

The one that you want, it is.

The decision that is needed.

And so if you are fearful of.

What the outcome would be or fearful that the decision that you make might have consequences that you are not prepared to face, then you will be stifled in your ability to be able to lead change. And so there have just been multiple points where, nope, I'm carrying this burden, and it's not mine. And so I'm thankful that the Lord.

Will fight my battles.

But. But, but that is, but that is that it is a real responsibility.

I think there are two kinds of people in this world. There are people who want to lead and there are people who don't want to lead.

And when you think about those people who aspire to be positions of influence, but sometimes they're not prepared for that kind of responsibility.

In your experience, when people aspire for influence and they get there and they realize they're not unprepared for it, what are you seeing across the spectrum? That maybe kind of is a common denominator for those people who arrive at something before they're prepared.

Yeah. And so a common denominator is that they were not. That they may have been socially promoted.

And so for people who may not be familiar in education, if you have not finished in first grade, but the teacher just wanted to pass you on to the second, that's called social promotion. And you are, you know, you did finish the year, but you didn't finish in a place where you had mastered all of the skills.

Well, that same thing can happen on the job where you are moved into a position from your previous position, but you were not prepared for what that position entailed, or you were able to finagle a salary at a certain level and thought, okay, I'm going to take that salary over to the next company. And the company says, well, for us to, for us to pay you, that you need to be able to manage this many people, and you didn't have that experience.

And so, yes, you're making the money and you've gotten the title, but you aren't able to keep up because you've not had the requisite at bats to be able to be successful. So that is. I blame managers for that and not managing the direct divorce.

Because what you want more than anything is that the people that you are within your care, that they can go on, whether internally or externally, and that they can fly.

Right.

Every parent's greatest desires for their child to be greater than what they have been. And so we prepare them for what the future will hold. So that's one, I think.

The other is that people romanticize leadership and they see the trappings of power. Right?

So everybody wants to be the pastor that has the big church and drives the expensive car and has a congregation of this many and has the pastoral anniversary that brings them this much and be able to have the TV presence.

And so that is our romanticized view of what it is to Be a pastor. But like the person who has 15 members and is showing up every week and preaching faithfully, that is also a pastor.

And that might very well be where God wants for you to be. Because if anything, it is the training ground for what it is. Because again, to our example from Matthew 25, you've been faithful over a few things.

I'll make you ruler over many.

So our romanticized view of what it is can inform that I'm going to do whatever I can to get to that place. And now I've been saddled with that responsibility and I don't know what to do.

And so that's another suggestion.

Another problem is our unwillingness to ask for help. Now, look, in ministry particularly, you have.

To be careful of who you can trust. And that's just true in leadership altogether, because some folks that you talk to don't have your best interests in mind.

And they're listening not for your solution.

Or for your deliverance.

They're listening for an opportunity to take what you have. So there is a inherent risk of.

Being able to expose ourselves enough to be able to seek help. But it is critical that you would.

Understand that your situation is not a situation that no one else has been through.

You know, the seasoned saints say that.

There's nothing new under the sun.

Well, that means that your leadership challenge that you were being faced with, that somebody else has gone through, that somebody else has experienced that. That sister that got on your nerves, she's not a person. She's a personality type.

And so somebody else has dealt with that personality type and can talk to you about what you might choose to do and to. So we think that we are invincible. We've arrived. Oh, I made it to the seat of power. And so God must have. He must have known.

And so I'm gonna trust my own instincts. And instead of leaning not to my own understanding, it was me that got me here. And so it's gonna be me that gets me out.

And it's like, no, God has you in this situation for a reason. He gave the talents for you to be able to use. He put you in the position of power.

And so we say, like Esther in.

Chap, Perhaps you are in this position for such a time as this, for the saving of many souls. She saved the nation as a result of her being so close to the king?

Who's to say that you won't be able to provide the deliverance for your family, your community, for this nation, for this world in the position that you play? But if you are thinking you are there for you, then that is also.

Why you might be romanticized in what this looks like and be unprepared for what it's gonna cost you.

Yeah, that's good. I like that. So let's talk about your book. For those who haven't read your book, it's called A Charge to Keep. What's that book about?

Yep. So A Charge to Keep was published last October. And so it is subtitled Immutable Leadership from the C Suite to the Pulpit.

And so in it, I give 12.

Leadership examples or 12 leadership lessons that I have learned the hard way. So you pick up a lot of books and it's all theory, and that's fine.

No knock on those particular books. But this is my lived experience.

And so what I do is I give you a leadership lesson and I provide an example from both church as well as from my nonprofit and C suite experience.

And in so much as you don't have to be a person of faith to be able to pick up the book and to be able to understand its contents and understand its lessons, and you don't have to be a business person to be able to pick it up and to be able to understand its concepts. But look, I give those examples and.

I share those ideas as a means.

To be able to talk about how we have a charge, a charge to keep. And so with that, I'll be honest in saying that this is not a book that in every chapter makes me look good. I admit mistakes and things that have.

Gone wrong in my ministry and in.

My C suite work.

And one might say, well, but, Kevin, shouldn't you be putting your best foot forward? Yes, but I want you to know.

That I stubbed my toe along the way and that, or as again, as a parent, you don't have to touch the stove to know that it's hot. I've touched it. I've gotten burned.

Let me tell you.

No, no, no, don't do that.

Now, you can make. You can make another mistake, but don't.

Make the mistake that I made. And so I am wanting to impart into leaders exactly what, you know, what I've experienced.

And so it's not the type of book that you read from front to cover and then put on the shelf.

With your other book books. It's the kind of book that you put on your desk.

And then as you are being faced.

With something, you thumb through and say,.

Okay, Kevin dealt with that personality type in chapter seven.

Let me talk about. Let me see what he did.

And if I can't use it in the same way. And so for the football fans among you or the basketball fans among you,.

You don't run the same play every.

Time, but you're looking at what the.

Defense or the offense is offering and the situation that you are with how much time is left on the clock, and you're calling the play that's right for that moment. And so you can think of this.

As a book of plays that you.

Might be able to run, depending on.

What you see from the offense and from the defense.

Well, Sinai, if you were a Green Bay Packer fan, you know, they ran the same play every time. Cause nobody could stop it.

But listen. And that might. That look, that might be the blade, right? That might be the thing that you got to do, right?

So I love this back. I'm curious as I look at your books, that you talk about the fact that it's principles that you've learned from the hard way as well as from success.

Keeping that in mind, which of those chapters was the most difficult to write? Because maybe you learned the hardest lesson, but maybe you grew the most.

So there is a chapter that I talk about how there was a misunderstanding between me and my manager that resulted in me having to pay back an organization a significant sum of money. And what I remembered the number to be that I was to earn and what he remembered the number to be were off by a significant variable.

And when I was to get a bonus, not only did I not get the bonus, but I then had, you know, I calculated the bonus in my payback model. And so I had to then come up with more money than I anticipated. So that is a full example of me making a mistake that literally cost me.

And so that chapter is, you know, is about putting it on paper. Do not account on a handshake agreement.

Instead, make sure that you have these things in writing so that you will not find yourself in that situation. But I think so that that was hard to admit that that happened, but I did, and I thought it was important to be able to share.

But I think the biggest thing in the book is how I was fired from two jobs for the same offense and to be able to admit that my principal stand caused me to lose a job. And then for the same reason in another job to make the same stance and for it to cost me again.

Isn't it embarrassing in the sense that, like, nobody wants to admit that they lost a job. And certainly, you know, that was three years ago, and I'm still recovering financially from that particular. The first one.

But to be able to say, too, that it was a choice that I'd make again and that I did in full alignment with my values, and that I may not have the job, but I have my integrity, and I may not have the job, but I have my name and I have my. My yes is still a yes, and my no is still a no. And so the conviction that led me to make that choice, I feel good about, even though it hurts.

And so when we talk about leadership, we also don't talk about. We don't talk about the prophet who was run out of the kingdom.

We don't talk about the wilderness experience that the prophet experienced as a result. We don't talk about Elijah not knowing where he was going to get his food from and had to go to the widow and ask the widow, just make me a biscuit.

Make me some bread. And she's saying, but no, I intended to make a biscuit for me and my son, and we were gonna die. So how is the profit coming to.

The person that doesn't have. And asking for right, like so.

But we don't talk about those things.

And I wanted to be sure that.

In this book that people also found that there is a cost of leadership.

And if you are not prepared to.

Pay it, you may not be in.

The right headspace in order for you.

To make the decisions that are needed for the saving of the nations.

So let's dig on that a little bit more because I think that's a place that so many leaders are. Why do you think leaders hesitate to take action when it's required?

So get a little context into the decision. So I was working in clean energy.

And in clean energy, the idea is that we would not be working with legacy oil producers because they were the ones who primarily polluted. And so I understand that. But also our legacy oil producers are.

Sitting on major, major, major capital reserves. And so they have the cash to.

Be able to help make and to.

Speed the move to clean energy. And they've also made a commitment that.

They want to be involved. And so there's this dance that it needs to be played.

And so some people are purists and.

They have no place in our work. Other people are more pragmatic and are saying, well, if they've Got the cash and they're willing to come to the. Why wouldn't we let them?

And for me, Luke 19, where Jesus is speaking to Zacchaeus, Zacchaeus being a.

Tax collector and one of the biggest cheats in all the kingdom, and the Bible says that he was chief among them, so he was the worst of the worst.

But he comes down and says, lord, if I've done anything to anybody by.

False accusation, I will restore them fourfold. So you've shown me that if I'm willing to repent of my sins and are willing to make restitution, that there is a place for me in the kingdom.

And so if God has forgiven me, then who am I to say that he can't forgive somebody else in the process? Well, that's a biblical principle. And so you want to tell me that I got to say no to these people who want to be able.

To give us some cash, who have.

Said that we made a mistake and we want to be able to help. Why would I do that? And so, at any rate, I made the decision, but knowing that it might.

Very well upset the apple cart, and it did. Many people were upset, got letters.

I can't believe that you would do such a thing. And, you know, you made a deal with the devil. I didn't. You work with other people. Why can't you work with them?

At any rate, I think that to answer your question, people are unwilling to make tough decisions because they are afraid of what the consequence might be. And so, look, look, two children, you know, at that time, two children under. Under two at home.

And so, so, so, you know, I lose your job and, you know, and, and you, You. You like, why would you just. Why wouldn't you just go with the flow? Why wouldn't you just do the thing?

Well, the reality is that every time you erode the trust that has been placed in you, that it becomes a slippery slope, and it makes it easier to be able to do the wrong thing the next time. So when you look the other way, when you, yeah, I'll do that.

It doesn't make me feel comfortable, but I'll do it.

It.

Or it goes against my values.

When you've. When you choose to shoulder that and to accept that, then that it makes it easier. And so a lot of people are.

Of the mind that, well, I just got to go along to get along, or this is how we've always done it, or, you know, I gotta pay to play, or if I want to be able to get to the big leagues, then I've gotta. I've gotta. This is. I gotta grease some hands along the way.

And so that might be the way it's always done, but is that the way God called you to be able.

To be able to move forward? And so I was willing to take a stance.

That stance cost me my job. Well, the reality is, if I hadn't.

Taken the stance, that same organization would have found something else because they really just didn't like the fact that I.

Was black operating in this space that.

Is dominated by people who are not black.

And so, okay, I get that. So I might as well. I might as well.

Another chapter in the book, because that story is detailed in multiple chapters, but.

Another chapter in the book. I might as well swing for the fences if I know that you're out to get me.

I might as well do all the things that I know to do while I'm in position of power to help move the organization forward. Because since you're already out to get me, I might as well make sure that my legacy is not just the.

Thing that you're going to set me.

Up for, but is that I created the conditions for which this organization is going to be able to move forward. But again, as a leader, you know, particularly if you've got bills and which of us doesn't and you've got responsibility.

You know, I am trying to get.

These kids from school, so I'm going to just. I'm just going to go along. And so I know that the person on the organ can't play, but I'm just going to.

She been the organist for years, and so I'm going to just let her continue on. Or I, I know that the person is mean. I'm mean as a snake, but I'm going to keep them on board.

I'm going to keep them at the door because they've been the usher president for all their lives.

You know, the person on the job who, you know, but she can get the work done, but, you know, she may have a nasty attitude, but I'm going to deal with that. Well, all of those have consequences. And the consequences on the culture, the consequences on people's psyche, it is on their lived experience.

And if you are unwilling to confront those things, then you are denying someone of the deliverance that they are seeking or the experience that they need in order to be able to move to the next level. And it's hard, right, because look, that might be your tither. That might be the person who has been in the organization the longest.

They might have the most institutional knowledge of anybody. And look, they too can reach their useful life. And so are you willing to do the things that will move them on to the next thing?

As these go, let others come. But if you're unwilling to make those types of choices, then you again are denying the organization of what it needs.

And so that is the fear that.

Is driving so many people.

You just named three of the people in one of my congregations. Yeah, but you must have a camera in my building. And you named them exactly in the places they were serving too.

Well, look at God.

You know, we are leading today in some very difficult times. There's a lot of division, a lot of distrust. As you think about leadership today, what qualities do leaders most need today to be successful?

So I think it's. We need some people of integrity. I think people who are willing to make their yes a yes and their no and no.

I think we need people who are willing to stand up and to be able to speak truth to power and to recognize that they are in positions of leadership for a reason.

And we are obviously more than a parade and fireworks, but it is to be able to say that even as our democracy is young by the world standards, has America lived up to its promises of 250 years?

And the people that we celebrate, you know, particularly in the black community, you know, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and Rosa Parks and, you know, Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington among them. We don't talk about the price that they paid for speaking the truth.

Right?

So Malcolm X was surveilled in COINTELPRO,.

And so was Dr. King.

Now, the FBI director has a building name for him.

But that doesn't mean that those families were not impacted by being infiltrated because they were speaking the truth.

You look at someone like Frederick Douglass or you look at someone like Ida B.

Wells and you understand that Ida B.

Wells came to be the prolific writer that she was because she was in.

Memphis working for a newspaper and three of her friends were lynched. And so she made a case that she was going to be able to tell the truth about that, and she got run out of Memphis. So we don't look at the backlash.

We don't look at the difficult days.

Dr. King's house being bombed.

We don't look at the circumstances that mean that people were uncomfortable.

Right.

So, you know, we celebrate the Freedom.

Riders, but like, what about the three that got that were killed on the freedom ride? What about the families of the kids who were killed at the 16th Baptist Church? We don't talk about the fallout as.

A result of the leadership. And so we need people who are.

Willing not to be martyrs, but willing to pay the cost that's associated with leadership because that is how America has moved forward. Right. It was because Dr. King understood the power of the television that the march from.

From Selma over the Edmund Pettus Bridge was televised and that America could not live with itself seeing John Lewis and.

Others being Amelia Boynton being beat over the head on the bridge.

What you are doing today is what you would have done then. And so either you are in it or you are on the sidelines. And that is what America needs. And that's the type of leadership that.

America needs at this point.

So this is not about who to vote for in November.

It's about getting and exercising the right to vote.

It's about being angry that, you know,.

You got a $400 million jet from, from.

From a country, and that jet is.

Now being retrofitted for the second time.

But that jet is not going to be used in the next administration. You're taking that with you to the. Where is the outrage over how much money is being spent?

Where's the outrage about the fact that you've got people who are losing SNAP benefits? Where's the outrage and where is the march and where's the, you know, the gas prices above $4? I mean, so where is that?

So I'm going to ask you something kind of a little on the lighter side. We've covered some deep issues and I really appreciate that. But lightning Round is kind of fair to get to know you a little bit better. Coffee or tea?

Coffee.

Early morning or late night?

Late night.

Your favorite leadership book besides your own?

There are so many. But I will throw One out there. It's a book that the person is the president. I can't think of.

Nicole Massey Martin has written a book called Nailing it where it talks about the price of leadership and how leadership is. If you are not being prepared to be crucified as Christ was, then you are not prepared to be a leader. And I'm talking about.

She's now the CEO of Christianity Today. But that book about Nicole Massey Martin is just. Is phenomenal.

And I heard that. Check that one out. One word that defines great leadership.

Stewardship.

Most influential leader in your life.

So beyond my own father, I would say Martin Luther King.

Mountains or ocean?

Oceans.

Most underrated. Leadership trait.

Humility.

A habit you practice every day.

Taking my kids to school.

Oh, I love it. Favorite place to reflect and think.

On.

Vacation, preferably on an island or a cruise.

All right. One phrase you find yourself saying most often.

So you asked me.

My answer is going to be different.

From the answers my kids give. But I do find myself saying often that it is important or actually I say a lot. God loves you, and so do I.

That is how I sign all of the cards that I write. It is the expression of how I feel about people, is that we just have to be encouraging and let them know that God loves you.

And so I'm demonstrating to you that God loves you so much that we may not know each other well, but I just want you to know I care.

All right. If you could have denim with one historic leader, who would it be?

So again with Dr. King,.

What's harder? Tough decisions or living with them afterwards?

It's living with them. I mean, it is the consequence.

Looking back on your leadership journey, what has leadership taught you about people?

So people are the same. So we don't meet. In my mind, we don't meet people. We meet personality types.

And so when you have encountered someone, understand who they are as a personality type. And how you dealt with that personality type in the past will be how you will need to deal with that personality type in the future.

That's great. So we close every episode with the same question, because every leader ultimately leaves behind a story. What do you want your legacy to be?

So this book is the first of what I want to be. Three books that are informed by the hymn A Charge to Keep. So this one is a charge to keep. The next one is going to be a calling to fulfill.

And it's going to talk about the cost of the anointing and the cost on both the leader and the leader's family. And the leader's community. Then the third is to serve the present age.

And that is the need for us to be able to reinvent ourselves in order to remain relevant to both in the workplace, but also in life. And so what I want my legacy to be is that while he was here on Earth, he tried to make the world better.

He was leaving us with his experiences that would allow us to be able to move forward. As I read, every author that I read inspires me to be able to go out and get another book, right? They're referencing this book and this.

And so, like, my list of audibles is really long, right? Both what I've got on as well as what's in the what's on my wish list. And with that, I just want to be able to absorb more knowledge.

But I also want to be mentioned in the lexicon when someone is saying,.

Well, at America at 250, who was.

Out there saying that, no, we've not arrived? I want for people to say, and Kevin wrote about in his substack, Kevin talked about in his sermons.

He reminded us and he galvanized us to be able to move. And that's the example that we need for the future. Not just that I was here, but.

That I planted a seed and that.

I might not be able to enjoy the shade that that tree will bring,.

But that the world will be better because I planted that seed and that true growth. And so, like, that's what I really want for the legacy to be.

That's great. Where can people find you, Kevin? And where can they find a charge to keep?

So a charge to keep is available on my website, which is R E.

V as in Victor K-T-T a Y-L-O-R.com.

So revkttaylor.com you can go and you can purchase the book there. You can also buy the book on Amazon.

But if you were to go to my, you'll be able to see all of the different offerings that I have, and you'll be able to learn about the new things that are in the works as well.

Thank you, Kevin. What a powerful conversation. One of the lessons I take away from today's discussion is that leadership isn't measured by how many people follow you.

It's measured by how faithfully you steward the responsibilities you've been given. So here's my challenge to my listeners this week. Identify one difficult conversation, decision, or responsibility that you've been avoiding.

Take one step toward addressing it. Not because it's easy, not because it's popular, but because leadership requires courage, and courage grows when you choose action over hesitation.

That bridge that transforms organizations, families, churches and communities are often built one brave decision at a time. If this episode encouraged or challenged you, please subscribe, leave a review and share.

With a leader in your life.

Together we can help build stronger leaders and stronger communities.

Until next time, I am Reverend Dr. Keith Haney, reminding you that becoming a bridge builder begins with responsibility, grows through courage, and leaves a legacy of impact. Thank you for joining us on Becoming Bridge Builders. And thank you, Kevin.

Thank you. God Bless.