Dr. Andy Roark hosts Dr. Jules Benson, founder and principal of Titum Lucidum Consulting, to push the access-to-care conversation from advocacy into practical, feasible actions veterinary teams can take now. They frame access to care as a broad spectrum, noting growth in specialty access while affordability challenges are expanding even for middle-income households, and they stress veterinary medicine’s cash-based reality and the lack of a true safety net. Benson argues access solutions must be sustainable business models, citing data-driven opportunities and examples such as proactively normalizing financing options, focused care models like high-quality high-volume spay and neuter, dental and surgery centers, mobile specialists, and imaging centers. They discuss expectation-setting, community-of-care coordination, telemedicine uncertainty, and the competitive tensions between independent and corporate models.

Welcome everybody to the Kone

of Shame Federated podcast.

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I am your host, Dr.

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Randy work.

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Guys, I'm back with my good friend, Dr.

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Jules Benson.

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we are talking about practical

ways to improve access to care.

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And so I, kind of crotchety

at the beginning of this.

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episode, it's kind of a old man

shakes fist at clouds moment for Andy.

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Just so you know, there's a lot of

talk about access to care and there's a

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lot of advocacy, which is great at the

beginning, and then it's time to shift.

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To what are we actually doing here?

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Like, what is feasible?

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What can we do right now in the moment

to start helping pets get care when

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pet owners are struggling to afford it?

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And, Jules wades into this

with me, which I really love.

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He's got just such great ideas

about what is actually possible

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and, where there's Less upside

and, and we really get into that.

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I, a big believer that there are

models to care that we are not using

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or that we could tweak and improve

to really make a big difference.

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I don't believe that vet practices

trying to be all things to all

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people is the, approach that makes

care accessible and affordable.

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I don't buy it.

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The Four Seasons, veterinary

hospital with their white gloves.

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They're just not gonna be

doing low cost spay and neuter.

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That's just, that's not who they are.

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And it doesn't make sense and

it's confusing and, just so many

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better ways to get care done.

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And so anyway, that, that's

what I'm excited about.

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And Jules just wades

right into it with me.

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And one of the things I love about Jules

Benson is he is very comfortable telling

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me no and telling me that he disagrees

and telling me that he thinks I'm wrong.

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And that's why I get so

much out of talking to him.

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I, my.

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Opinion almost always changes

while I'm talking with him.

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Like I'm not saying I go to Jules's side,

but I definitely rethink some of my own

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assumptions and some of my positions

just because he's very smart and very

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persuasive and I just really enjoy him.

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So guys, we're gonna, mix it

up a little bit and talk about

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actually talking about right now?

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If we want to improve access

to care, let's get into it.

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Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show.

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We're glad you're here.

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We want to help you in

your veterinary career.

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Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr.

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Andy Roark.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

welcome to the podcast, Dr.

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Jules Penson.

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How are you, my friend?

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

I am very good.

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Dr.

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Andy

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Man, it's always good to have you here.

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you've been a, a run on the show

recently because I find that you and

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I have much to discuss these days.

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for those who don't know you, you,

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

text messages.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

there's, yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The philosophic text messages that I send,

there's mostly like, this is ridiculous.

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Did you see this?

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face palm emoji, things like that.

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Yes.

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you're getting a lot of

those from me these days.

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I am, bit of a philosophic bender.

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for those who don't know you, I

have to say before we get started,

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you are the founder and principal

at Titum Lucidum Consulting.

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You are an industry strategist

and a thought leader, and you are

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someone who I just really enjoy.

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Talking with, and so my recent

philosophic bender that I needed

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to talk to you about is this.

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So I, you know, we're talking, you and

I talk a lot about access to care and,

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Yep.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

and getting pets taken care

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of, and your pet is actually

getting taken care of right now.

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Like you have a pet in

surgery at the moment.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

we just fielded a call and he's

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having a resection anastomosis

at 11-year-old kitten who ate

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something that he shouldn't have.

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So as you said, I'm

sure this will teach him

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: yes.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

lesson

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Oh, I understand.

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Like, no, he's, I'm confident

he's gonna remember this and

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change his bad cat behavior.

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Yeah.

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So, I'm talking about access to

care and thinking a lot about

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access to care and that's great

and I love it and it's important.

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And there's a lot of people

who are talking about access

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to care, and that's good too.

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However, we've definitely reached

the point of the conversation where

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there's a lot of advocacy and not

so many actual things that I think

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that we should be doing in practice.

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And again, I You're, I'm,

open to challenges on this.

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I'm very interested in shifting from.

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I feel like there's a lot of hand

waving around access to care of, we

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should do blank and we should do blank.

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And I look at that and I think,

there's, there's truth to what's

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being said, but I don't know how

to apply it in my role as a doctor.

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And I think a lot of things.

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a lot of things are hypothetical.

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They're like, you know, we should

have a safety net for pet owners.

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And I'm like, great.

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Tell me more.

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Like, like

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Socialized

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

social.

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Yeah, exactly.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

I, here's the thing too.

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My super optimistic, idealistic

heart would make a case for that.

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And I would say, look, we know that people

live longer and are happier, and mental

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health is better when people have pets.

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And like, I would love for

our government to subsidize in

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some way people having pets.

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I,

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

and we're, starting to see some

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legislation around pushing pets as a

social determinant of health, which is one

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of the first, so our friends align care

are doing that legislation at the moment.

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So like the things in the works.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: yes.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

far from it.

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As a, as an entity.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

It's not happening this year.

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I, I would say it's gonna,

it's gonna be a, a long way.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

It's,

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

long way.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

the, it's on its way,

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but yes, it's a journey.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

It's on its way when pigs, pigs

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flying on their way as well, but.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

we, it's a, it's a different conversation,

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but I think when you start to, when

you legislate that pets are a social

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determinant of health for all the

reasons you said, and that having pets

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makes humans healthier, therefore.

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money, quote unquote, for

the human healthcare system.

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You start to end the point

where you can fund pet programs

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through human healthcare.

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Like that's, I think that's

the short to medium term goal.

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So yes, you're right.

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It's not fully, it's not, it's not

a, a healthcare system forecasting

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doctors subsidized by the government.

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It's saying, can we help the care of

humans by advocating or subsidizing Kappa

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yes.

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So what I heard was you can stop your

emergency fund saving because Jules

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thinks the American government is going

to back us up in the very near future.

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No.

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Okay.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

yes.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Okay.

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So anyway,

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

that is not, that is not true, but yes.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: okay.

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but in all seriousness, so I would love

to see a social safety net for, pets

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there's just not one in the near future.

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And so one of the things I

always admire about you and I

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really enjoy is our conversation.

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We, some thoughts and I, I

want to hear, hear yours.

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When I say to you, Jules, like, what do

you think is really possible right now?

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In terms of actually increasing access to

care, what are your favorite possibilities

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or paths that are, that are realistic?

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

So I think, think it's worth

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pointing out first of all that

access to care is a huge umbrella,

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Okay.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

So I think when, when we look at the

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last 10 or 20 years, we have dramatically

increased some forms of access to care.

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When you look at at specialty healthcare.

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and boarded surgeons and, and internists.

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we think back 30 years ago, those all

resided in, pretty much in vet schools.

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Like you had to go to a, to a place

that was teaching veterinary medicine to

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see a boarded specialist in something.

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So in the last 30 years, we have

dramatically increased access to care

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for specialty veterinary medicine.

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So again, just to say like, businesses

have seen the value of that.

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And they've seen that people

are willing to spend money and

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therefore we've seen growth in that.

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So I just wanna point out that

this is a massive spectrum.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

right.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

So access to care is everything from

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access to specialty care, all the

way down to people who are receiving

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no care or pets who are receiving

no care whatsoever at the moment.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

when you hear people sort talking

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about access to care, does your mind

immediately go to people who are

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receiving no care at the moment, like

the lower end of the, financial spectrum?

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Or do you actually think about access

to care in terms of specialty medicine?

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I think you're right in, in

the, the definition of this.

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what does your knee jerk when

people say that, say that to.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

so it's my way of saying that I think

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care accessibility is a huge spectrum

and it's been a, it's been a journey

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for me and for many, I think in

this space saying, okay, I think we

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instinctively, and the knee jerk reaction

is to say, access to care is, is pets

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who are not getting care currently.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Okay.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

absolutely right.

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I think you say that to say access care

to most people and they will think that.

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I think the reality is that we have huge

issues with care accessibility in what

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we think is our historic core audiences.

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So people who are earning upwards of, you

know, households are earning upwards of

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50 or $90,000 a year, we're starting to

see data that suggests that they are not

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seeing care as accessible as they used

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Okay.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

And so, so I think when we say what

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are the access to care opportunities.

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and I wanna be very careful about

how I think about this because, you

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know, we're both veterinarians, but

we're both business people as well.

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when you look at this and say, what

is the opportunity in access to

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care, I think a lot of people think

about, well, here's the compassionate

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need for care accessibility.

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Literally, there are pet families

who are going without care at the

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moment because they cannot afford it.

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And I think when I look at it, I

say, and, and this goes back to this

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was, the innovation summit in 2018.

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This was kind of the first.

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Kind of area of my brain that

was activated around this.

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David Howeth, who at the time was,

the President PetSmart Charities, he

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presented these data and said like,

okay, here's the Bureau of Labor Labor

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Statistics data on household incomes.

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If we suggest that people under $25,000

are getting less care, less frequently

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than others, what could we do about that?

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Is there a business case that suggests

that they wanna spend money and there's,

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they put together some of the stats that

people's had around like, okay, they're

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willing to spend up to $200 a year.

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Identified almost a $13 billion

opportunity from a commercial

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strategy point of view.

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And so when I, we start talking

about things like spectrum of care,

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I don't look at spectrum of care

as a purely compassionate entity.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Right.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

I look at it as what is, the sustainable

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future of veterinary medicine?

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And so I try and be pretty hard-nosed

about what access to care means to

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me and frankly, how it's sustainable.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

I think that that's required to

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have a productive conversation.

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I think the thing that I found myself

saying recently, and I try to say

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it in a very compassionate way, Vet

medicine is a four cash business.

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and so to the point that I made earlier,

there's not a social safety net.

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there's nothing behind

your average vet clinic.

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And I think that gets downplayed a lot.

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And I think a lot of people talking

with good intention, I, but I don't

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think that they grasp that real reality.

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And you and I have talked about

this before, when you say.

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I think the vet industry has a

responsibility to support pet owners.

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When you say that to a single

mother, practice owner.

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What you're really saying is I

think you have a responsibility.

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You know what I mean?

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Because there's no one coming to help her.

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And so like the staff

is still gonna get paid.

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They're not gonna clock out

and help and they shouldn't,

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and that's, that's not legal.

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We don't want that.

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But, but the staff's not gonna clock out

to help her, And like the A VMA is not

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gonna send an emergency veterinarian in

by helicopter to at 6:00 PM to do this

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procedure to help the pet owner who

can't go to the emergency clinic like.

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There's nobody but her and, and so

I, I just think that I'm not trying

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to make a, a big point that vets are,

are mistreated or not appreciated.

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But that is the reality I think

at the practice level for, for

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most of these things is this

is a straight cash business.

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There's not any other, there's no floating

money behind it to fill in the space.

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It's not like the emergency

room where if I go and get care

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Sure.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

and you know, and walk away that,

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that the government's gonna help

make the emergency room whole.

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You know, that, that we don't

have anything like that.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

when I think if we look at our,

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amazing and, and admirable efforts

we have in philanthropic care and

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yes.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

care for pets.

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Like there's, amazing and

fantastic work going on there.

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But I, I think this is another

pet Smart charities data point,

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but I think they, they identified

in the last couple of years.

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There's basically a $30 billion hole

in pet care in the us, which, you know,

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it's, and, and to, to some degree, it

sounds hopeless to say, but it's almost

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like pouring water on dry sand, right?

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You can pour as much money

as you want into this, but

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there'll always be a great need.

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It goes back to one of our

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yes.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

about an infinite need

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bound by finite resources.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

so, so as you, as you're looking at this,

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I love that example you gave of the, of

the single practitioner and I, and I,

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you know, some of the ways that we've

talked about this previously, it's not.

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I think the way I look at it's that

it's not, you should be doing better.

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I think it's, hey, there are ways that

you could approach some of these things

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that might stretch your resources further.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yes.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

we look at that, whether, you know,

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whether it's that triangle of, cost

access, you know, and, and, you

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know, quality, how are we helping,

you know, veterinary practice.

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And there's some really interesting

thoughts at the moment around, okay, AI

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tools, can they help you increase your

resources by not adding more bodies?

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So, you know, you know, so

that, and that's, that's one of

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the things that's Tim Posited.

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But a really good example, and this

is fairly new to me, was the Open Door

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Veterinary Collective, did some great

data on people proactively aware of our

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finance options and meeting people much

more upfront with, instead of just giving

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them the, the estimate saying if you

can't afford it, to some other staff.

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Having that information upfront and

having them have been proactive about.

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There may be a need for financing,

like veterinary care is expensive.

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How, you know, let's, let's make this

aware to you upfront that actually

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can double people's, resources

when it comes to receiving care.

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So that's a, that's a care accessibility

option that just potentially by altering

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one of our behaviors, veterinarian

can, you know, improve their

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ability for their clients to access

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

I think that's,

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Yeah.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: how's

your credit card balance looking today?

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You know,

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like, that's not viable.

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And of course, that's not what they meant.

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What they, what was meant was

exactly what we're talking about is

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let's start to talk about financing

options, how people pay for care.

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You know, all, all of these sorts

of things to lay that groundwork

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around these financial conversations.

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Not in a, not in a sleazy

way, but in a systematic way.

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I think there's a lot of opportunity

there, and I think that that

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conversation around normalizing

financing and how people pay,

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

What.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

I, I think that that's worthwhile.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

I mean, if you think about

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it, like when you think about

orthodontics and kids, right?

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yes.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

you

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Good.

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Good example.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

how many people are

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paying for that upfront

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

they'll finance that and that there

332

are finance options available.

333

I mean, one of the, one of the amazing

things has been, with, you know, a

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colleague and I starting a practice, this

year and we spent a lot of time looking

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at websites and there's just some amazing,

like when you look at veterinary websites,

336

there's no, not that we hide it, but

it's not something we proactively talk

337

about in terms of, of providing payment.

338

there was some, just some really

good websites we saw, which were

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around either, you know, dentistry

or even, fertility planning, right?

340

Just saying like, Hey, you

know, acknowledging, hey,

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this could be expensive,

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yes.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

be a cost.

344

We, there are finance options and here's

a whole page of our finances that you

345

can go to before you even consider

whether you want the care or not.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

347

I, I like that.

348

And, I, one of the things that I get kind

of bent outta shape a little bit about is

349

like, I don't think the problems around

accessibility or affordability for vet

350

medicine are unique to vet medicine.

351

I think that, I think the

world is getting so expensive.

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Yeah.

353

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: I

feel like a lot of times vets get kind of

354

called out and, and the reason is because.

355

The increase in prices in, in vet care

have far outpaced in general inflation,

356

but they, they haven't really far outpaced

a lot of other healthcare sectors like,

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dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Right.

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dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: you

know, emergency care for, for humans,

359

general healthcare, things like that.

360

And so I go, well, you know.

361

Our problems are not unique to us.

362

There's a lot of other

people like the orthodontics.

363

What an, what an excellent, I say

with, a kid with braces, over here.

364

Yeah.

365

What a, what an excellent call out.

366

And so I, I think that there's a

lot of things that we're seeing

367

in other industries that can help.

368

Do you see greater.

369

Lesser or the same opportunity in

refining what we currently have

370

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Mm-hmm.

371

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

laid out in our business models,

372

like how ve practices currently offer

versus developing new business models.

373

Are you more bullish

on new business models?

374

Are you more bullish on, a refining

increased efficiency in what

375

we have or, or about the same.

376

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

I think it's a yes.

377

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Okay.

378

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

so I I, have been for many years now, a

379

believer in, let me phrase it this way.

380

I think when we look at the needs of

our communities and we look at, you

381

know, John Q general practice, right?

382

If we think about general practices.

383

it reasonable to think that general

practice, especially in urban and

384

suburban environments, can meet the needs

of everybody within their community?

385

is that a realistic expectation that

they can reach a, a level of price,

386

a level of, of quality, a level of

accessibility that works for everybody?

387

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Can they be all things to all

388

people in this diverse community?

389

Yeah.

390

Yeah, exactly.

391

I I think that's a, I think that's

a good philosophical question to ask

392

and the, the answer is, un undoubtedly

you cannot serve, you know, from the

393

socioeconomic bottom to top of your

entire community in an optimal way.

394

You just can.

395

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

and I think it was more true

396

20 years ago than it is now,

397

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

That you could get closer to

398

success 20 years ago than today.

399

Okay.

400

I buy that.

401

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

I think you could be more things and,

402

and for all the reasons, whether it's,

you know, our advancing quality of

403

care, whether it's just the cost of

404

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

405

Well, the spectrum, 20 years ago

was smaller, you know what I mean?

406

As as

407

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

a hundred percent,

408

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

as opposed to what we have now.

409

Yes.

410

I think that, I think you

make a good case for that.

411

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

so I think when we look at it, and

412

this, this goes exactly to your point,

you know, and around, you know, other

413

people have been doing versions of this.

414

when we go to, you know, we are, we are

met of a certain age and, and we need

415

certain examinations at certain times.

416

Now, you know, when, when we

go and have, an examination for

417

our gastrointestinal health.

418

We don't go to the, I think we

talked about this last time.

419

We don't go to the, to the gp.

420

We don't go to

421

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Right.

422

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

specialist.

423

We go to somebody who is, that's all

they do is, you know, those procedures.

424

And I think when we start talking about

focus care, if we think about what it

425

takes to do one thing and do it really

well and do it really efficiently.

426

And I think an awesome example, and

if anybody, listening doesn't have

427

good grounding in this, which I didn't

when I first heard about it, is high

428

quality, high volume spay neuter.

429

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yes.

430

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

I think it's an incredible model and

431

the fact that you can say both high

quality and high volume, like the, the

432

things are so systematized that you

can run through these procedures at

433

such a rate and still maintain really

high quality and really high outcomes.

434

That to me an example of like, where

else in our industry, A, is there

435

volume and B, can we systematize things

in such a way that you're, you are

436

really getting the advantage of that.

437

We're starting to see it already, right?

438

I mean we're, we're starting

to see it in dental practices.

439

We've seen those cropping up

over the past five years or so.

440

We're starting to see it in, in

focus care centers for surgery.

441

Like I think more and more we'll start

to see filling the middle ground of

442

things that can be done by others,

pop up as as focused business models.

443

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: I

think your, mobile specialists also kind

444

of fall into that, like it used to be that

we had to ship cases over to the specialty

445

hospital to get an abdominal ultrasound

and now we've got a mobile specialist

446

and they roll in and it's a significant

price savings to the pet owner.

447

The specialists still get paid, quite,

you know, quite well, and we get to

448

continue to be very involved in the case.

449

And so I think that's a great example

of how you can tweak a business model.

450

And really actually increase,

access to care in that regard.

451

I, I really love the idea of

the, of the high volume, high

452

quality, spay neuter facilities.

453

And again, to me there's oftentimes

they're set up as nonprofit organizations.

454

There's just a lot of things about it.

455

Some like these were set out

to do a specific function and

456

they were built strategically.

457

And I just think that that is such an

important way to look at, you know, how

458

we approach paying for care as opposed to,

459

You know, Hey, your vet clinic

really needs to lower your

460

price on space and neuter.

461

, Or to have deep discounts

for certain people.

462

I go, how do, that's just fundamentally,

that doesn't make sense to me.

463

I, I, I don't know how to, I don't

know how to feel, applying these

464

sort of need-based standards, you

know, that's not, that's not how

465

I wanna practice and it's not in

the, the world I wanna live in.

466

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

and I think the much harder part is when

467

you start to get down into, okay, how do

you provide a level of general practice

468

that is more accessible for more people?

469

IE how are you providing ear infections?

470

Gastroenteritis, like the, the

things that we see 70, 89% of

471

the time in general practice.

472

Are there, are there models

that you can use to do that?

473

And we've seen several pop up

over the past 10 years or so.

474

But I, think I consistently see

the problem of, whether it's all

475

the way from urgent care down to

community, care centers or minute

476

clinics, I think we haven't quite

cracked how to make that profitable

477

and how to make that accessible.

478

And, I, I don't know that we have.

479

Created an expectation in our pet families

that there is a version of veterinary

480

medicine that might look different to

what they've been used to, or if they've

481

never had veterinary medicine before,

what their expectations should be.

482

So I, you know, as a, as a marketer and

a strategist, I, I'm a huge believer

483

in that you lead with expectations.

484

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

485

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

I don't know that, that we've

486

had the capability to do that or

done that successfully in some

487

of the models that we've seen.

488

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Well, I think you're right.

489

I think there's a lot there about

leading with expectations and I think

490

that we're looking at new ways of

doing things and it's, it's hard to

491

set expectations when you haven't

492

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Yep,

493

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

haven't actually done it before.

494

I think it's, interesting.

495

I've been rolling around in my

head since you said it earlier.

496

You know, when I look at human

medicine and you talk about

497

increased specialization, I.

498

See increasing prices, like, you know,

so when, when we go to the, you know,

499

to the GI doctor, that's gonna, that's

gonna be a more significant investment,

500

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Okay.

501

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

than it is to go to the gp.

502

And just the way human medicine

are been set up is whenever you

503

leave your gp, you know, the, the,

cost of care is going to go up.

504

It's interesting to think about

what you are talking about

505

specialization increasing, you

know, in increasing efficiency.

506

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

might be the wrong word,

507

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: No.

508

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

maybe focus

509

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: But

510

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

your specialization just connotes that

511

like, you know, someone's boarded,

512

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

yeah, exactly.

513

And, and I don't mean around being

boarded, but I mean, I, I think you're

514

probably right in, in, terminology

is probably important around, around

515

focused care or It is, but it is

specialization of the service, right?

516

You say, Hey, we only do

abdominal ultrasounds.

517

That's what we do.

518

Yeah.

519

It's, it's narrowing in the focus.

520

But, but to have that, not to be as a.

521

Higher step up the, towards the

gold standard, but to be like, Nope.

522

It's, it's a different way of doing

it and it's much more cost effective.

523

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

or

524

Even breaking down some of those

steps that we had, like, you

525

know, we're, we're starting to

see some imaging centers, right?

526

So previously you had to go to a

specialist in order to get, you know, an

527

MRI or you know, something more advanced.

528

Now you're seeing MRI, you know, specialty

imaging centers where that's all they do.

529

And they interact both with specialists

and with, with general practitioners.

530

And I think.

531

I think this is the big step, right?

532

Is, you know, you and I have

talked before about what, what

533

we're calling a community of

534

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

535

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

If you, if you start to have these focus

536

care centers within your community,

how are we interacting with each other?

537

And frankly, I mean, again, I think

some of the issues that we've had

538

previously have been that people see

some of these things as a threat.

539

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Yes, without a doubt.

540

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

and without a doubt, right?

541

And, and I, I think some of

what we have to do is to.

542

Understand that business models are

there to serve different people and or

543

that they're serving different needs.

544

If you're a general practice who,

your focus is brush, steel and chrome

545

and white coats, you know, we can be

fairly sure that you're not, you're

546

not seeking to, to go further down the

socioeconomic, you know, kind of, slope.

547

And that you probably don't want people

who, who can't spend more than $200.

548

So how do we activate a

community of care within that?

549

geographic location or even again,

and we've had long conversations

550

about this as well, like what role

can and should telemedicine play

551

within some of these things as well.

552

I is, could that be a part of the glue

that sticks some of this together?

553

I think there's, and the jury

is still very far out on that.

554

We've seen some pretty consternation

over the role of telemedicine

555

within our communities.

556

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

I think that you're right

557

around the possibilities.

558

You know, we talk about telemedicine, we

talk about, I don't wanna say the scarcity

559

mindset, but it is a, a scarcity mindset,

560

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Sure.

561

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

of, small business owners.

562

And again, when I say scarcity, that seems

really negative, but we, again, there's

563

nothing behind the veterinary practice

except often the veterinarian, but even

564

the companies, behind them, There's not

an endless pool of money, and vet medicine

565

is not a highly pr profitable business.

566

And so when you say, Hey, just relax,

we're gonna open up this new service,

567

and, but like, trust me, like it won't

be your clients and this won't go away.

568

I don't know that there's any amount

of expectations that you can do

569

that takes the fear out of that.

570

I think what's going to happen or what

ultimately will, Things are gonna shift

571

and they're going to change, you know?

572

And so if part of your business moves

to something else, I don't think

573

veterinarians everywhere is gonna just

fall apart and go out of business, but

574

their practice is going to look different.

575

And what it's gonna

look like is not known.

576

And it's not proven.

577

And so I think you'll always have

that problem with e expectation

578

setting and with fear of change.

579

Don't you agree?

580

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Well, I think the rules of economics

581

suggests that this, this might be a

net positive for the consumer, right?

582

If you, if we think about other areas

of stratification, you know, the hotel

583

industry is one that, that, you know,

my co-author and I drin you use all

584

the time, which is like, Hey, you

know, if you're going to a Motel six.

585

You're pretty sure what you're getting

and what the, approximate cost will be.

586

Versus if you go into the four seasons,

the economic realities of the world

587

might mean that at some points in time,

the Motel six is much more popular than

588

the Four Seasons for various reasons.

589

And so, like, again, I think trying

to, trying to find your audience and

590

cater that audience and create that

competition, I think instead of having

591

a bunch of ve presses that look the

same within the geographic area.

592

Creating models that compete with each

other across different strata, I think

593

could create in interesting, and again,

when I say interesting, you know,

594

upsetting, you know, competitive elements

between, you know, different models.

595

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

I heard commentary around sort of the

596

modern business, especially around

the tech business recently, and it

597

was saying that we have a problem in

how sort of commerce works in America

598

because the business strategy of the,

of larger companies, I'm thinking

599

specifically about like Meta and Google.

600

It's really not about.

601

Making something that competes,

a against competitors based on,

602

on attracting and drawing people

in 'cause they want to use it.

603

It's all really about trying

to lock people in where they

604

don't have much of an option.

605

You know, it's about, so for, for

Facebook it's about, if you get it,

606

this person's friends all on there

and the friends don't want to do a

607

new thing, that's where they are.

608

Then I can kind of keep this person here.

609

'cause they're sort of, they're

sort of locked in and, I'm trying

610

to think of another example.

611

If, it's so, like

Ticketmaster is like, you

612

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

go back.

613

Go back to hotels like, you know, if

you're in the Marriott group or the

614

Hilton Group, then you're gonna G,

you're gonna try and make sure that you

615

spend your money in one or the other.

616

'cause you're incentivized.

617

Or

618

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

right.

619

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

right.

620

Is another

621

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Oh, exactly.

622

Like if you wanna, if you want to get

points we're, you know, you're gonna

623

have to, you're gonna have to do this,

and then you get these benefits and.

624

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

even worse,

625

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: yeah.

626

Oh, is that if you wanna

keep your status, yeah.

627

You have, you have to do this.

628

Well, again, and, and like, so you just,

I buy entertainment tickets for like

629

concerts or basketball games or whatever.

630

I wish that I didn't have

to use Ticketmaster, but

631

they, they made the websites

and they're all locked in.

632

And trust me, I'm not choosing

Ticketmaster or their subsidiaries based

633

on I'm, my excitement about the value

that they add, I'm, I'm locked into that.

634

So I, it was interesting to hear this

and sort of have this mindset of.

635

Our businesses in general really

starting to focus on how do we,

636

lock people into these services?

637

And I, I don't like that.

638

And, and I, I really, I like what

you're sort of saying around, can,

639

can we get back to the idea of

providing value that make people

640

say, I, this is what I want to do.

641

I

642

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Yeah.

643

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

there's something wonderful

644

about the hotels where that is

an industry where I feel like.

645

Based on my budget, based on what

I'm looking for, I can, you know,

646

I can sort of pick my option.

647

And, I've stayed at the four season

and I've stayed at Motel six.

648

And, you know, often, you know, I,

I choose something, in the middle

649

because it's kind of a nice mixture

for me of, of value and quality.

650

And I go, this is kind of where I am.

651

And so I, I, I really do like that.

652

But I can imagine early on when there were

three types of hotels, There was probably

653

not a lot of excitement about these, about

other, you know, other models coming in.

654

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

And you think about all the resources

655

we have to judge that by now.

656

Like we don't just have the brand name

and kind of the associations with that.

657

We have all these review

sites and all the rest.

658

We're starting to see some of that

more in better medicine, but just like.

659

I mean, you know, when you buy online, I

assume you're quite like me in that like

660

before you buy something, especially if

it's a considerable, you know, purchase

661

by which at our age now that's over $50.

662

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

663

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

if it's over $50, we

664

have to do some research.

665

but you're gonna spend some time looking

at the reviews and, and, and I think now

666

we have this qualitative ability, like

you've seen the, the, ai summarization of

667

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

668

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

people like this, people like this.

669

They didn't like this.

670

We're starting to get to see

more and more of that right.

671

With, with our own businesses.

672

And I think it's gonna, it's gonna

help people contextualize what we're

673

offering and how we're offering it.

674

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150: Yeah.

675

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

I think that's, I think that speaks

676

even more to the need for us to say,

what are we offering specifically to

677

our community that other people aren't?

678

frankly, where and where

should we be handing off?

679

And I, I do think we're gonna

start to see, you already see it.

680

Like you, you'll, you'll rarely find

an independent value practice who will

681

want to refer to a corporate 24 hour.

682

There's, already, we're already starting

to see some of those schisms, and I think

683

you'll start to see potentially more and

more of a community of care, especially

684

around independent practices and maybe to

your point, more and more consolidation

685

of services and more loyalty driven

through some of that corporate colleagues.

686

So again, and there's, and there's

reasons that happened to you.

687

You did a podcast recently on, on

the role of capitalism and, and

688

VetMed, and I think that's, that's

exactly the way to think about it.

689

Like everybody here is, is

trying to keep the lights on.

690

You know, and the, and that, that

means something quite different

691

to the corporates perhaps, than

it does to the independence,

692

but you know, each to their own.

693

And it's some of the reasons

that we've seen some of these

694

models fail recently, right?

695

A corporate, urgent care located next to

a corporate gp, many independent gps are

696

gonna send their practice, their, clients

to, you know, the corporate urgent care.

697

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Right.

698

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

doesn't make sense for them to want to do

699

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

the, yeah, there's, there's the worry

700

about sending 'em to over to the

Marriott and the Marriott's like,

701

Hey, we got a point system over

here, and you've already got points.

702

And so Yeah, I, I

703

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

Yeah.

704

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

get it.

705

Dr.

706

Jules Benson, thanks so much for being

here and talking through this with me.

707

I could, I could talk with you all day.

708

Where, can people find you online?

709

Where can they keep up with you?

710

dr--jules-benson--he-him-_1_02-09-2026_134149:

they can find me on LinkedIn mostly.

711

I I do most of my thinking

out loud on there.

712

And, and some of the conversations

that we all have on, on LinkedIn

713

are endlessly frustrating and

entertaining and equal measure.

714

dr--andy-roark-_4_02-09-2026_154150:

Outstanding.

715

I'll put a link in this show note.

716

Jules, thanks for being here guys.

717

Thanks for tuning in everybody.

718

Take care of yourselves, gang.

719

And that's what I got guys.

720

Thanks for being here.

721

Thanks to Jules for being here.

722

If you like the episode, like, and

subscribe, share it with your friends.

723

Help me get the word out and spread,

spread the joy of the Kona Shame show.

724

It just, it means the world

to me when people do that.

725

if you were less impressed with the

episode, then maybe you journaling.

726

Journaling maybe is, is a good, it's

a good way to process those feelings.

727

And I'll, I'll just know

that I'm, I'm trying my best.

728

I'll try, I'll try to do better next time.

729

Anyway.

730

Take care everybody.

731

I'll talk to you later on.

732

Bye.