How do you keep that weather outside from coming inside? Walt Tamala is a construction educator training contractors across the US the right way to do exterior work. At age 37; as a result of his passion for building and commitment to helping others, Walt was awarded the BusinessWest Forty Under 40, class of 2013. Walt has served as president on the board of directors for Greater Springfield Habitat for Humanity, as well as the State of Massachusetts and Western Massachusetts Home Builders & Remodelers Associations and continues to play an important role within those organizations. Today we talk about weather resitive barriers and what their role is and the best way to use each project. This episode is great for that new homeowner all the way up to the experianced contractor.

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[00:00:25] Walt Tamala: house with?

[00:00:45] Walt Tamala: Um, I find that a lot of, of failures in these, uh, projects come because the homeowner's like, oh, you know what? I researched this. Uh, and I really like this product when it comes to remodeling and renovating your home. There is a lot to know [00:01:00] though. We've got you covered. This is around the house.

[00:01:14] Eric Goranson: Hey Caroline, how are you today?

[00:01:22] Eric Goranson: From another mother, Walt Samala T and T general contracting and a guy that I share the stage with plenty of time, educating contractors. Welcome back to around the house. My brother, Eric, Caroline.

[00:01:36] Walt Tamala: appreciate being here. And you having me back on

[00:01:41] Caroline Blazovsky: I love his expertise and I love his building science experience. So to me it's like always a learning experience, Walt. So.

[00:01:55] Walt Tamala: Uh, while we're out there, we, we see so many good things that are being done and so [00:02:00] many bad things. And, you know, I chalk off half the bad things to people, just not knowing how to do it. Right. So the more we're having these conversations, the better off our, our whole industry is.

[00:02:14] Eric Goranson: Call weather resistant barriers. And the difference is, and this is not by any means any kind of a sponsor influenced segment. This is something that we're gonna, there are no sacred cows here. We're gonna talk about the differences between brands and stuff out there that we see from our perspective. So we don't have anybody sitting in here going, Hey, pitch us do this, which is kind of the basis of around the house anyway.

[00:02:48] Walt Tamala: brands. Yeah. I mean, there are so many different brands that are out there, so many different options.

[00:03:19] Walt Tamala: And with today's day and age, one of the big answers is the system that you can actually get. Right. And what's available where you're at. And, and do they sell the whole package? Not just the roll. Do they sell the tape? Do they sell the Fasten? Do they sell the adhesives? Everything that go along with.

[00:03:44] Eric Goranson: And,

[00:03:53] Caroline Blazovsky: We're replacing a window, we're replacing a door. We're putting in something we're changing a part of the house. So do you stay consistent with [00:04:00] the original house wrap you had? Like from my, you know, my home, I had a felt paper. Right. I didn't have a Tyvac or if you have Tyvac, do you go to another type of system?

[00:04:17] Walt Tamala: Yeah. I find that, um, you know, being in Massachusetts, uh, probably 80%, 75 to 80% of my work is remodel. And we're dealing with old housing inventory. Um, so a lot of the times when we rip off that exterior cladding, you know, we don't know what to expect, what we're gonna find if it's just, um, tar paper, uh, if it was some ROSN paper, um, if there's nothing there, because at that point in time, they're here.

[00:05:08] Walt Tamala: And then if you had felt paper integrate, uh, uh, another WRB, whether it is a, a wrap, uh, cuz that's probably the easiest and the most accessible to, to folks. Um, or if they have a peel and stick product, um, that they could use even an ice and water. I see a lot of folks that will just grab some ice and water.

[00:05:52] Walt Tamala: Uh, that way, again, that water has no way of getting behind it and back into the building. that makes

[00:06:08] Eric Goranson: We have a lot of six story multi-use residential slash you know, commercial buildings out there, or even condo units that are three or four stories high, but they start framing here in the rainy season in October. And by the time they get it framed out it's December and they're starting to throw the roof on and all the OSB or plywood on the outside of that is black.

[00:07:06] Walt Tamala: Uh, you, you know what that terminology's called, right? You can't see it from my house. I mean, it's terrible. Uh, once it's covered, it's like, no, that WRB is doing its job, but do you really want to cover something that has been sitting for that long? Even though the manufacturer says, Hey, it has a 30 or 60 day exposure ratio that's to UVS and everything else.

[00:07:42] Walt Tamala: Yeah. Um, other areas, if you don't have that kind of moisture, um, you can get away with using, you know, the regular wraps and everything else. And if you're in sunny, California, uh, where, you know, you're down in San Diego, you're not getting a ton of rain, then go right ahead. You. Use your Tyvec your Thai pars.

[00:08:14] Eric Goranson: that with your milk in the fridge.

[00:08:30] Caroline Blazovsky: Well, you know, what's interesting. Um, I have contractors working on my house and, and they were telling Eric and I had Eric on speaker that even the plywood now they literally got a little bit of moisture and some rain and the plywood started to delaminate and sort of come apart.

[00:09:01] Caroline Blazovsky: So I found that kind of interesting. Yeah. That, you

[00:09:18] Walt Tamala: Outsourcing it, and you know, the lack of a lot of the resins in, uh, in the industry right now, um, they've substituted and, you know, they did testing. They, you know, they're trying to do their best to make sure that what they're putting out was consistent with their original products, but a lot of these resins and everything else just aren't holding up or aren't testing out the way they thought they were going to, but they had to do something to.

[00:10:00] Walt Tamala: No, no, it's crazy. So, so I get it to a point. Um, but that means we've gotta do our due diligence as the installers and the contractors to make sure, you know, we're being even more careful and cautious and that install goes smooth and we're taking care of and covering that product as soon as possible. So it's not exposed to the elements and everything else.

[00:10:42] Walt Tamala: Um, my first conversation's gonna be with my contractor and the reason being as a contractor may have a system that they just enjoy using they're comfortable using or their team's already set up to use.

[00:11:14] Walt Tamala: I don't use it. I use this instead. But yeah, if that's what you want, I'll use it. No problem. Yeah. Um, you got a great example of a very good friend of mine. Who's the national rep for. Uh, a, a product, um, worldwide, um, that, uh, you know, he reps here in the us and he did an, uh, a build out, uh, six years ago and now they're adding onto it.

[00:11:52] Walt Tamala: But the other three sides after he started travel were all done with Ty park and I'm like, oh my God. And he's like, why would they do [00:12:00] this? And I'm be like, well, blue skin was new to the market and the builder and his team probably just didn't know how to use it. Yeah. Right. And, and they struggles make it look good and, and to apply it properly.

[00:12:24] Walt Tamala: They didn't make it an air barrier. They didn't do anything to integrate it into the other system. And you know what? Those two products actually can be integrated to a point because acrylic basis and such as far as the tapes go. But it's like, what if they weren't compatible one could eat the other product up.

[00:12:58] Walt Tamala: You

[00:13:15] Walt Tamala: Eric, you wanna jump on that?

[00:13:37] Eric Goranson: And all of a sudden you're good to go and you're cruising, you're caulking it in you're pain it, and there you go. And then you started seeing house wraps come in, you know, which was kind of the next thing. And you saw like the DuPont, the XX, you know, that kind of stuff that came in. And you'd see it just get stapled around, but it wasn't really, you didn't see the [00:14:00] tapes being used by most of the contractors mm-hmm it was just a, okay.

[00:14:04] Caroline Blazovsky: lab. Right. And, and they had a lot of problems cuz some of those plastic wraps weren't breathable. They went with just a solid plastic at first, remember it wasn't perforated. And then they had all this sweating and mold and you were just like in a solid plastic fishbowl. And then they said, oopsy.

[00:14:25] Eric Goranson: I mean, there was a time when I remember they were teaching to take just sheets of plastic on the inside of the house. Wow. And staple it up. Remember that before you put the drywall up for energy efficiency. And I remember sitting in a class going really, is that what we're doing?

[00:14:45] Walt Tamala: where does the vapor barrier belong? And is that the same thing as a WRB? No, no, that's a whole nother topic, right? Yeah, because that's exactly what you're talking about. Eric is an interior vapor barrier and it's like, I still have code arguments with code [00:15:00] enforcement officials up here that an interior.

[00:15:18] Walt Tamala: Otherwise you're gonna trap moisture and that's

[00:15:24] Walt Tamala: better believe me when I'm in business, a WRB yeah, a WRB or an air barrier. You can have multiple layers if you want to. Uh, because they're permeable, they allow air and moisture to pass through it.

[00:15:40] Eric Goranson: problem. Amen. I mean, that's it. And if you do the double vapor barrier. That's money for Caroline . I like ,

[00:15:54] Eric Goranson: mold in your wallet. And one thing, Walt, that I've seen, you know, and of course we do, we have continued to evolve and now you're getting into the [00:16:00] zip system, but.

[00:16:19] Eric Goranson: This w WRB behind it. And you'd see that with the new products.

[00:16:45] Walt Tamala: Really. That's interesting and tieback happy to be one of the best, the highest per rating, um, house wraps out. Uh, I, I, I like the product. I've used it for many, many years, but anytime I had Cedar shakes that were being direct applied, uh, a lot of folks thought it was the [00:17:00] nail or the corrosion, uh, uh, to the Galvins nation of the nails.

[00:17:10] Caroline Blazovsky: Cause I have a Cedar house, so I find it I've always, and I'm bad cuz I've always used, felt my whole house has been it, but I've also do flashing and all kinds of mills aluminum and you know, things like that, the extra things that people don't do.

[00:17:24] Eric Goranson: Yeah. And it's not the nails cuz I mean, when you pull that off and it looks like it's just been sitting out in the weather for 20 years, right? It's shredded. It looks like an old tarp that's set outside for two decades.

[00:17:43] Walt Tamala: and, uh, Caroline, you brought up a great point felt is a, a fantastic product to put underneath it because of the oil base and, and just how durable that product is. Mm-hmm that it resists all of the residents that are then in that Cedar shake. Yeah. That's what I use. So that's, that's a great a WRB for behind [00:18:00] it, or you're usually doubling up your WRB, uh, that way one's taking a beating and, and absorbing all those.

[00:18:10] Eric Goranson: But then you start getting into okay. You've got zip system and some of these other pieces out here and, and, you know, I like DuPont. I like zip. These are all great, you know, Huber, great people out there, but now you've got products now where it's built into the, into the plywood, into the sheathing system, which is another whole different way of doing

[00:18:31] Walt Tamala: Yeah. And as all, all those fewer guys will tell you and our folks will tell you is that coating is impregnated into the skin of that OSB. Um, and I know there's been so many tests and so many controversial, uh, discussions about over penetration with a nail and how mu how much moisture then gets into that OSB.

[00:19:10] Walt Tamala: That acrylic based tape is probably one of the best on the market. Um, and all of these, I don't care what system you're using. I want people to know this and just remember, this is they're all pressure release tapes. Yes. If you don't put 30 pounds of pressure on any of these tapes, you could walk away and, uh, a year later pull siding off and those, all that tape will have released.

[00:19:41] Eric Goranson: so if you have a contractor out there working, installing this and they don't have a roller in their hand, they're not doing it

[00:19:49] Walt Tamala: Absolutely. I mean, everybody will, I'll go out to my own job sites and they'll be, I'll be like, Hey, where's your speed grower. Is that in your pouch? Is that where you're using? Because I don't like the sharp edge of that. You could cut and tear some tape, [00:20:00] especially if you're on like the inside corner, um, where the, the two house wraps meet and you know, the siding's gonna get butted to each other.

[00:20:23] Walt Tamala: I just no be safe, be, be smart. And you just have a roller take your hammer out of your pouch and put the roller in. It goes in the same holder. So explain

[00:20:41] Caroline Blazovsky: It comes in one panel. So there's no, yeah, it's all Al. No more. Yep. That's exactly no more piece of plywood or just OSB, and then you've gotta wrap it and then you connect these two. So as they go up, just like you would install plywood and you tape between them, is that what happens? Yeah.

[00:21:00] Walt Tamala: So you're gonna wanna get to two to three inches of tape on each side of that, um, scene. Um, and that way it has plenty of surface area to bond. Um, and then, uh, same thing happens as you're flashing. Think of it this way. You put the two bottom sheets on yeah. Wherever that seam is vertically. You're gonna tape that seam.

[00:21:34] Walt Tamala: Um, And as long as long as you're rolling it, uh, by the end of that day, that, that wall that you just put up is water tight from the outside. Hmm.

[00:21:50] Eric Goranson: When you're framing it up. You've gotta give a little space in there. And I know so many people go, oh, I'm just gonna get it just super tight. That's not the answer sometimes. [00:22:00]

[00:22:14] Walt Tamala: He goes, you know, everybody knows that eight inch spacing in between these panels up to a quarter inch max, because it is still wood. It's still gonna breathe. It's still gonna shrink and expand. Uh, he goes, but look at the front of this. He goes, it's super tight. Like we have no tape up yet. They come and tape afterwards.

[00:22:45] Walt Tamala: And then when you walk to the back of the building, because it's three stories, there are two inch strips of zip. Wow. And they're like, we literally just tape over the top of it because we use six inch tape instead of four I'm like that defeats the whole [00:23:00] purpose. Yeah. So no miss it. So yes, there, there are tolerances and you gotta, you gotta read the instructions and you gotta pay attention to it because.

[00:23:10] Eric Goranson: not that good. . Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's the key too. I mean, you know, I can't tell you how many times that, uh, I was down visiting our friend David Applebaum, who shows up on the, on the show a lot here in comments, on social media. We were in front of his old condo and I'm standing out there looking at this and we're down in California and I'm looking up going, what are they doing?

[00:23:55] Eric Goranson: It was the weirdest thing. All the windows were done incorrectly. It was [00:24:00] not flashed. Right. They had actually had pre-done the house wrap around the windows and left it there mm-hmm . But when they came back over and started wrapping it, the flashing and everything was under the house wrap, not over it. Oh, okay.

[00:24:20] Walt Tamala: over, yeah. To the, to the head of the window. Yeah. Yep. Underneath the flashing.

[00:24:28] Walt Tamala: Yeah, I, you know, and Eric, I've seen, I've seen some gaps in my life, but, uh, I only use up to like a one inch backer rod.

[00:24:42] Eric Goranson: It's like just a hole. Yeah. Yeah, but you know, Southern California, they might get away with that. But up here, you know, in, in a month or two, any water gets behind that. You gotta, you got a hot mass, but

[00:24:55] Caroline Blazovsky: I have so many clients now. They're all having mold problems. Like my last six [00:25:00] clients have been from Los Angeles or surrounding areas within LA county. And with massive mold comes in crawl spaces, basements, and at. And like, I just, and then I, then I start talking to them and I'm checking the relative humidity in the.

[00:25:36] Caroline Blazovsky: They stop the old shingled roofs that were wood in California. Yeah. You guys would expand and contract with the heat. So now they're using asphalt. And we're seeing all this moisture condensation getting, you know, happening because the addicts are getting so hot and the first floors are cold with air conditioning.

[00:25:55] Walt Tamala: Yeah. It all comes down to the assembly. Right. And I mean, I know we're just talking RBS, but you bring up a [00:26:00] great point. Uh, you know, that becomes our thermal barrier. Uh, you know, you got your WRB, you have your air barrier, your weather barrier.

[00:26:20] Eric Goranson: know, my opinion, California is fairly lax on waterproofing compared to where I'm located.

[00:26:48] Eric Goranson: And I think that's reflecting in what Caroline, which you're dealing with and you see a lot of slab on grade. You see water leaking through shower pans, into that slab. And so now it's soaking up that water [00:27:00] or it's showing up in another area, you know, it's, it's one of those things that, that water, you could have a, a, a slab on gray home and the shower Pan's leaking.

[00:27:23] Caroline Blazovsky: they have all the mountain, you know, the mountain areas.

[00:27:41] Caroline Blazovsky: So that could be an issue too.

[00:28:03] Walt Tamala: Some of them are sealing it to the concrete, which is their rear wall mm-hmm , uh, and then cladding or, or, you know, doing some kind of a siding over the top of it. Um, but how, how do you really get a good bond and adhesion to that? Yeah, I mean, Uh, I've seen some builders now, uh, that are using fluid applied over the entire exterior of their buildings, which is also a w B.

[00:28:33] Eric Goranson: answered the question right there, that's kind of what you'd have to do in that situation. And a

[00:28:40] Caroline Blazovsky: Like they're blown out, out the water at the cost of their remediation, and then they've gotta. You don't say they had their HVAC down there. So you're looking at 30,000 for a new HVAC system. And then you're looking at molder mediation, and then you're looking at any, you know, let's say carpentry work, you have to do.

[00:29:02] Walt Tamala: And it's kind of easy for the three of us to sit back and be like, wow, it's crazy that they would not spend their money on these control layers, which are the most important part of the house, whether it's the insulation, the WRB the components that you don't get to see, because if these are done right.

[00:29:40] Walt Tamala: We always say that when I walk so true. Right. You know, the bones are good in Eric. Can I

[00:29:47] Eric Goranson: like,

[00:29:57] Walt Tamala: So you kind of know what you're getting yourself [00:30:00] into.

[00:30:12] Eric Goranson: That is something that was new to me. And they brought up, you know, in, in the seminars that things that I don't deal without on the west coast, you know, hurricane force wins. One of the advantages of that product is if you put that up there as Ruth's, she, you know, sheathing, if you get a 120 mile an hour wind going through there and your shingles get ripped off, you still have a waterproof barrier.

[00:30:42] Walt Tamala: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, cuz you're still using an ice and water on this product afterwards, um, which is gonna tie all those sheets together. Uh, but when you kind of use like a fortified system and you're nailing four inches on center and everything else, uh, which you're supposed to be on coastal and, and high wind zones, like you do, um, build [00:31:00] a much stronger and better structure, that's gonna have an opportunity to, to outlast any of those storms.

[00:31:20] Walt Tamala: Yeah. Yeah. And, and zip has a, a great product. I remember when they first came out, you know, me, Eric, I love to try every product when it comes out, just because I want a noodle with it.

[00:31:31] Caroline Blazovsky: too. You and Eric, that's all your brothers. Cause you like to tinker tinker with

[00:31:37] Walt Tamala: stuff. Cool. Exactly. Let's tear it apart, you know, cuz we wanna break it down and see if we can make it fail. Yeah. And then let's, let's figure out how it works really well.

[00:32:07] Walt Tamala: And then when I had time, I could come back over it with a house wrap and everybody laughed at me. Cause I know it was an extra day's worth of work and maybe $500 worth of product. But I then had two WBS that worked fine with each other, cuz there was air flow and everything else between them and it was just better all over and it didn't slow down any of my production while I was out there.

[00:32:47] Walt Tamala: Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:51] opinion,

[00:33:09] Caroline Blazovsky: Right. When we were talking about moisture can go in and out. Absolutely it can. I, I like to explain it like as moisture comes into wood, wood can take on some moisture and then when it dries out, it releases it back out. Think of it like a tree, right? A tree doesn't get all moldy and nasty. It takes on the wood and it's wood gets moisture and then it lets it back out and the tree stands and it's fine with OSB.

[00:33:45] Caroline Blazovsky: Right. I think it's all OSB. So for someone like me, who's not a big OSB enthusiast. One convinced me that OSB should be something that I'll look at. And two. What, you know, what's your take on it? I mean, if you were gonna build, would [00:34:00] you still build, let's say CDX or would you build with an OSB

[00:34:03] Walt Tamala: So, um, I'm going on year 29 of building for myself, uh, started this right outta high school. Um, so when you start outta high school, you walk the road of hard knocks and you make a lot of mistakes. Right? Um, one of the things that I've did for the first 20 years is I only used, um, for P. I mean, I was up to a few years ago that was still five inch for buy.

[00:34:59] Walt Tamala: [00:35:00] Um, and the caveat for me Carolina was that I took a piece of zip, uh, the roof sheaving, which is the red mm-hmm, the red, um, uh, board. And I put it out in my backyard, uh, for a year exposed and I just let it. So new England. Yes. It snowed on it. It rained on it. Four seasons. Uh, the backside of it was all black and nasty.

[00:35:35] Walt Tamala: Um, so I did it on a couple small product projects and, uh, I just found. Again, new England, you know, mm-hmm, , uh, we have the four seasons that change. So we don't like changing anything else in our river park. , uh, especially the way we build. Yep. Uh, but yeah, it, it proved, uh, that over time that it was, it was a good product and, uh, I do use it now.

[00:36:07] Eric Goranson: one thing too, Caroline, I have done some tests as well, where I took, you know, a 12 by 12 piece of OSB and a 12 by 12 piece of CDX and soak it in water.

[00:36:28] Caroline Blazovsky: Yeah. He's told me that before, which

[00:36:43] Eric Goranson: It's the same glue. And so it's just differently used you have a sheet of veneer versus the oriented strands of OSB. but you still have wood products between them. The OSB does traditionally have more glue in it because it's pieces, you you're holding little pieces together, but, uh, it's [00:37:00] not that much more glue.

[00:37:01] Caroline Blazovsky: Our, our, our interesting take on it is that the permeability of it with the moisture going through has a much harder challenge. Like, so we see a lot of the houses not being able to pass moisture vapor and get rid of that vapor inside the house, which becomes a problem with this energy efficiency that I have to deal with.

[00:37:31] Caroline Blazovsky: So I'm always interested to see what you guys as builders

[00:37:49] Walt Tamala: Um, so that should be controllable, but you're bringing in mechanicals, uh, to condition and move that moisture, uh, to where it belongs to the outside of the building. But, [00:38:00] uh, again, with any piece of mechanical that you add, there has to become a piece of knowledge that we pass along to our homeowners. So they know.

[00:38:22] Walt Tamala: So 5%, you're

[00:38:42] Eric Goranson: There's no place for it, it to go right. When you're putting that level of waterproofing on the outside of it, is that

[00:38:49] Walt Tamala: It sounds like we shouldn't do that. If, if we don't manage that attic temperature and everything else you're right. It's terrible because, you know, um, I think.

[00:39:25] Walt Tamala: So to make the builder happier, happy he's sheath it. And then they've gone through and ice and watered the whole thing. And the roofer forgets to cut the Ridge vent. They throw it on top, cuz everything's already black. Yep. But they never cut the Ridge vent. And then the underside of that sheathing within a year is black and moldy.

[00:39:43] Caroline Blazovsky: I had to

[00:39:47] Eric Goranson: Yeah. And, and I think Florida building code says that you have to, you know, have that up there just for protection with.

[00:40:05] Caroline Blazovsky: Applebaum has had to put in, in California because of this, this tightness going on in the attic space.

[00:40:31] Walt Tamala: Wow. Yeah. I mean, you know what, I'm, I'm sure there's a building science and, and, and testing that's been done on that, you know, and here, back in the, the Northwest and or Northeast, and even where you are, Eric, I'm sure roof scoops and everything else were used, or if so, so many square feet of roof space, uh, vent would have to go into the roof.

[00:41:02] Caroline Blazovsky: have. I mean, that's what they David's been doing, because like I said, they used asphalt roofs now instead of the expandable, you know, they used to use the shingles that would breathe and open up for the, you know, with wood.

[00:41:26] Caroline Blazovsky: You're getting all this water. That's sweating off the ducks and the vents in the attic space. And they all have mold.

[00:41:41] Eric Goranson: So if I did get any immersion stuff blowing in it's landing on the rock wall, and I know that's not gonna take off and, and become a problem. So if I did get some sparks. Came in, up and around through a roof Fent that that's a good idea. Slamming the rock wall. And guess what? I know it's not gonna burn there and it takes [00:42:00] a lot to get in and get into where it's gonna light the roof framing on fire.

[00:42:07] Walt Tamala: That's a great point, Eric and I, I think, you know, yeah, that's a good idea. I think if, if, and when Rockwell comes in with a blown in insulation, uh, method, uh, that, that will really be able to take off and, and run. Uh, but even if they did some kind of a, a spray foam to seal, um, that ceiling and then put Rockwell over the top of it, uh, to protect it, you could probably get enough R value where that, uh, condensation and everything else doesn't occur too many of this duct work and everything else isn't in conditioned spaces.

[00:42:55] Walt Tamala: So there's definitely some ways around it. No, that's good. Uh, Eric, I love the thought [00:43:00] of that rock wall. That's that's brilliant. That's just an idea.

[00:43:04] Eric Goranson: What is that? Actually as well, but it's a mineral. Woo. So basically it's a spun mineral. Think of almost like cotton candy, right? They take it mm-hmm and spin it out.

[00:43:40] Eric Goranson: And

[00:43:45] Walt Tamala: is nasty. And I actually incorporated on, on all the exteriors of our building so that I get a, a two inch, um, comfort board, uh, from Rockwell on the outside of my building so that I push the dewpoint to the exterior of my sheathing.

[00:44:17] Walt Tamala: yeah,

[00:44:39] Eric Goranson: So it doesn't hurt in that aspect.

[00:44:55] Caroline Blazovsky: Is it less itchy too? Like when you work with it, like, you know, I, I can't stand working with [00:45:00] insulation cause it constantly itches me and it,

[00:45:02] Walt Tamala: It's well, no, it's still itches. Um, but you know, it's not quite as bad, uh, depending on who you are. Like I work with it throughout the day. No problem. My brother touches it and. You know, he's like, oh my God, I'm gonna kill you for making me work with this stuff. . Um, but, uh, yeah, it's it. It's just how your, your skin reacts to it.

[00:45:21] Eric Goranson: to wear gloves to use. Yeah, I'll tear my hands up. So other than that, it's fine.

[00:45:33] Eric Goranson: That's wild. It's cool stuff. That's cool. Walter. I wanted to talk about one other thing that fits into this.

[00:45:50] Walt Tamala: Yes.

[00:45:59] Walt Tamala: [00:46:00] absolutely. So, um, I'm going to have my exterior sheathing, whether it's a zip or, um, a plywood on the house, I'm gonna then put my WRB on it. Uh, or if I'm using zip, it's already built in, uh, I'm gonna install those properly. But now, uh, in my neck of the woods, I'm gonna put at least a three eights rain.

[00:46:40] Walt Tamala: And what it does is it allows air, uh, and moisture that's trapped that comes out of the house. And through that, WRB a drainage plane to. Down to the ground and out of the building. Uh, one of the other things it does, especially if you're using any kind of a wood product, if you're using Cedar clapboard or anything on the outside of your house, [00:47:00] think of it.

[00:47:20] Walt Tamala: So if you give it that gap, um, and again, three eights was always kind of the, the go to number, um, depending on how much rain you get in your climate zone and everything else, I've seen it all the way up to three quarters of an inch. Um, there are scientists out there that'll tell you, you need more than that.

[00:48:01] Walt Tamala: So we incorporate 'em into every single build we do because they are another control layer. That's just as important as a w.

[00:48:25] Eric Goranson: Shall we say that's

[00:48:29] Caroline Blazovsky: pictured it like a gap wall. Like I remember when they, you know, back in, when I did green building in architecture school, they, they, it was like a plane. Yes. And it almost looks like a gaping that's in between, you know, like just for layman. Right. It was like this gap

[00:48:42] Walt Tamala: You could use some three quarter inch fir strips. Yeah. And just mail it right on top. But you could use some half inch plywood or whatever, um, and put it right on top of your sheathing or your WRB. Um, and yes, that would create that channel. And that's exactly what it's for. It's just. So that, uh, air can flow through it and moisture can be released.

[00:49:19] Eric Goranson: Technically that could be your next, next was nest. That could be your next beehive wast. having a material in there that kind of keeps that from hav having happening is not a bad idea.

[00:49:37] Walt Tamala: And that's the Benjamin Dyke and the, the D pop products. Uh, and those come, is it like

[00:49:44] Eric Goranson: see, I haven't in here. I don't, but it's a, it

[00:49:53] Walt Tamala: Mm-hmm um, and these dimples are like one inch circles that are abutting in honeycomb form. Yeah. So that when you [00:50:00] put it down, wherever you nail it, um, it doesn't sink in enough to, to stop that channel or that airflow, uh, to be there. Um, you can put it up with like a stinger, uh, two inch cat fasteners and staples.

[00:50:12] Eric Goranson: top of a leg. Right. Think of a top of a Lego where you got the little, like, this is as far as the texture. Yeah. That.

[00:50:34] Walt Tamala: Um, when they're talking to the contractor, um, I just kind of have my, my five go-tos that I'll figure, I just throw out to you guys. Uh, you can use 'em if you want, or you research 'em mm-hmm um, but you know, you have your Tyvec of the. They created house wrap. Uh, they're still, uh, probably one of the best on the market.

[00:51:19] Walt Tamala: And, uh, also just phenomenal. So if you, as a listener, hear any of those five products brought up by your builder, um, that builder probably knows what they. And, and it's worth the, the you're gonna get a nice education, cuz they've chosen a product because they trust it. Uh, and they like the system

[00:51:42] Eric Goranson: Right. correct. I mean, Y I see this all the time and I can't tell you how many times I'm driving around. And I see, you know, for instance, I'll see product a up there, cause I'm not gonna name names cuz it's not fair, but all of a sudden I see product B tape on it. Or [00:52:00] product C tape on it. And it's just because, or I'll see even worse where I'll have the product a as the house wrap, the tape is product B and product C is the flexible flashing around the windows.

[00:52:16] Walt Tamala: Yeah, exactly. which one is, so is it

[00:52:26] Walt Tamala: not? Okay. Unfortunately, some of these products do work out all right together. Uh, when you have an acrylic tape with an acrylic, um, product, uh, or a product that.

[00:52:53] Walt Tamala: But the minute you turn your back, I mean, you know, you're gonna cover that up with some siding and then it's gonna fail. So no, and then some of them will [00:53:00] eat away at the others. Uh, the coatings that are on them. Saying

[00:53:17] Eric Goranson: Oh, you use that flexible flashing you as soon as you get that rollout. Just remember that that warranty is what just left the.

[00:53:35] Eric Goranson: And the problem is if you're a builder out there doing it now you've assumed that warranty personally, with your company, because now you don't have a manufacturer standing behind you.

[00:54:02] Walt Tamala: Definitely not I, not my insurance, my insurance company doesn't want to hear that at all. And I, I want my rates to stay low, so yes, I follow the prescribed method.

[00:54:29] Eric Goranson: These WBS. So they understand the, the whole process.

[00:54:53] Walt Tamala: Doesn't sit, flush. So then the knife comes out and that gets caught. And now. All that tape, all that money was just spent is gone [00:55:00] literally right out the window. Um, so they make flex wrap. They make the stretch wraps. They make all these new products, uh, that even though they stretch to twice their size.

[00:55:28] Walt Tamala: Above it, uh, the w R B over the top of that flashing. Uh, so it watersheds properly. Um, but really it allows us to not have to use fasteners. Uh, so we don't have any penetrations. Um, and then most of these products are self-sealing so that when the window screws and everything else go through them, they seal the, the fastener, uh, to the tapes, which is key so that we're not having any issues, uh, with moisture penetrating into that.

[00:56:22] Walt Tamala: Me and I don't ever wanna do this again.

[00:56:34] Walt Tamala: Yeah, absolutely. I mean the freeze thaws, I mean, all those pressure treated posts, they say that they're warrantied except for our ground contact.

[00:56:47] Eric Goranson: Exactly. And that way I'm not fixing it later. Well, thanks for coming on today, brother. This has been a great education for thanks everyone. And, uh, such a smarty pants.[00:57:00]

[00:57:06] Caroline Blazovsky: kids will never think you're smart. That's a good, well,

[00:57:13] Walt Tamala: that. My

[00:57:25] Eric Goranson: And we'll see you next

[00:57:29] Eric Goranson: and I'm Caroline B and you've been listening to around the house