Is your transformation team just a PMO function in disguise?

In this episode, Joe sits down with Ayesha Hakim Rahman to discuss her 10-year journey from the voluntary sector to leading transformation across London boroughs like Tower Hamlets and Bexley.

Ayesha challenges the status quo, arguing that transformation is far more than just PMO or governance - it is about curiosity, impact, and challenging the phrase "this is how it’s always been". We explore how to move from tick-box consultation to honest community engagement, why we need to stop using the term "hard to reach," and the vital role of Agile methodology in the public sector. Whether you work in the public sector, service design, or change management, this conversation offers practical insights on building resilience, using data effectively, and the power of "intelligent risk-taking".

What we cover:

• From Community to Strategy: Ayesha’s transition from the third sector to local government and how living in the borough she worked in changed her perspective on decision-making.
• Redefining Engagement: The regeneration project success story and why honesty about what residents can and cannot influence is crucial for trust.
• Transformation vs. PMO: Why confusing Project Management Offices with Transformation is a mistake, and how to spot the difference.
• Agile in Government: Moving away from "As-Is" and "To-Be" waterfall planning toward testing, learning, and delivery sprints.
• Leadership Growth: Ayesha’s personal goal to become a "patient leader" and learning from the friction of past projects.

Stay connected:

• Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman
• Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.com
• Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/
• Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk

You, you studied community sector management?

Yes, I did.

So why did you, why did you study that? Because the reason I'm asking is most people when they're a kid have got very specific ideas about what they'll do in adulthood as a, as a career.

Doctors, lawyers, they work in finance standard. I figure that's not what you were imagining your career would look like.

So what, when you were a kid, what did you imagine that you would do as an adult?

So my big goal was always to be a primary school teacher. That's where my heart was. You know, in secondary school you do that one week work experience. So it was in a primary school, always year five, six.

I was really set.

And it's really interesting you mentioned community sector management because it's been a while, you know, after you graduate, you know, it doesn't really come up in conversation as much. But I. So after I had my little one, I was determined to rebuild life, you know, living in a hostel, all of that kind of thing.

And I remember walking into to Hamlets College, which is where I lived at the time, I think it's rebranded as New City College now, and I went in to do a qualification in teaching and see what's available and my little one was six months old and I remember being told, we're really sorry, we're completely full, but there's a table back there and they've got some places. So walked over and I said, you know, do you have some options here? And it was around community development and it was a completely new subject to me.

But actually what they said is they had some funding so they could support with childcare and it's only a day, a week and a day, a week of experience in the third sector. And essentially that's where my love and roots in the voluntary and community sector started.

And I realized this innate need to kind of make a difference to the lives of people at a really grassroot level, really aligned to my core values.

And in all of that I kind of ended up moving from a level three community development to a foundation degree in individual and community empowerment and then moving into the final year of community sector management and then my master's in public leadership and management.

And I think I'm someone who, even though my role naturally focuses on the long term and vision and you know, thinking three years plus, you know, that's the time frame, my personal life, I kind of let it go with the flow and I'm really, you have people who set five year goals or ten year goals. I've Never done that. I don't actually know where life will take me past the next year. So I have goals for, you know, the upcoming year.

But I feel like when you set long term goals on an individual level, you almost restrict the options that you have. So in all of that, you know, although I absolutely loved the community and voluntary sector, my heart will always be there.

I then moved into local government.

There was this graduate scheme that came up and, and I don't know, I feel like saying the rest is history because I can't imagine working anywhere else other than local government now because it's almost that opportunity where that very, very local impact of community involuntary sector, this takes it a level up, but actually the opportunity to progress and really impact a little bit more at the strategic policy level is greater without still losing touch with the community. So I guess that's where it transpired from. It almost kind of happened through a natural evolution really.

It wasn't necessarily something that I'd planned in advance, certainly not something I thought I'd be doing the day that I walked into the college all those years ago.

Yeah, kind of a happy, happy accident, really.

Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, we'll call it that.

So you're from Tower Hamlets originally, aren't you?

Yes, yeah.

So you, you worked in, you did your graduate scheme in tow Hamlets, didn't you, is that right?

I did, correct, yeah.

And then you've just finished a stint as a deputy director in Tower Hamlets.

Yes.

So I'm interested, I'm interested the impact that being from a place has on how you approach your role.

Of course.

So what, I mean, how has that impacted you? How has it affected your role and has that changed from when you were a grad scheme member to being in a really senior role?

I am so connected to the people and the place that is to Hamlets. I can't emphasize how much, you know, it will always be home. I live in Redbridge now and I love Redbridge, but to Hamlets will always be home.

You know, where you're born, where your roots are and I think working in t Hamlets.

So yes, I started as a graduate and then did 10 years at Islington, a year at Redbridge in between, and then went back to TA Hamlets in the work of transformation. And I think living and working for the same borough, it makes you double check every decision and every assumption really.

And you naturally do that in the world of transformation anyway. But I find that with Tower Hamlets because there are so many assumptions built in and honestly, all the way from when I was A graduate.

And you know, I remember my first remit was a citizen engagement strategy. And you can imagine how hard it was from being in a local voluntary organization.

So, you know, I was working in Limehouse Project Stifford Community Centre practice, you know, some really small scale impact to suddenly being on the sixth floor of Mulberry Place, which is where we were based at the time, working on strategy. It was a really hard culture shift.

But more than that, when we're talking about the citizen engagement strategy and I'm at a board meeting and the first thing you hear is, well, we already know what the residents want. We just need to find a way to get this strategy out. It hits different when you live there and you're like, how do you know?

But you're just a graduate, you don't want to question those things. And I also remember as part of the graduate scheme, I did a year and a half in Housing Region. You're meant to move every six months.

But I loved Housing Region so much that, you know, I, I just, I found every reason to stay there because it's the variety. I realized I love variety in my role. You know, going from finance to planning to policy to resident engagement. I got it all there.

For me, one of the things we were talking about is consultation and actually everybody was talking about it like we're really going to genuinely consult with residents because you use the term consultation, that means you're asking. And I remember, you know, this is six months in as a grad and I'm kind of, can I just check what exactly are we consulting with them on?

And I remember getting a look of, well, what do you mean? And I'm saying, well, can they choose how many floors the building has?

Can they choose, I don't know what their local network looks like or what, what the building set up is. And I got a bit of a they're there approach at the time.

I remember, you know, because it, it's kind of, don't worry about that, we've got this Aisha, you know, that kind of thing.

But I just remember, and maybe this is why it's really good to start your career working in the place that you live because you question things a little bit more and a little bit differently. And I think because that's where my career started, it almost just continued on.

And as a result, I always feel like transformation could not be a better place for me to lead in because almost depends on you asking those questions. And I love being the voice that is different.

And never have I always, we look at risks and issues, but we never look at assumptions and there's so many assumptions built in to the work that we deliver and we do so. So I think what it really gave me is that real passion and ability to have the confidence to question and not fall into the status quo.

So what, what does it look like when resident engagement or participation is done. Is done?

Well, what does it look like? Well, actually I will use the grad scheme as a good example. So in housing region we led Blackall Reach.

It was a huge regen scheme, I can't remember, £300 million or something like that. And it was where we were demolishing a large number of high rise flats to create a new provision.

And it was an amazing concept and brilliant for the community. And I asked if I could lead on the engagement piece. Actually, I didn't ask.

What I did was I built a timeline and it was really funny because I actually drew up a calendar and put different colors of different types of engagement that we're going to do over the next two months. So you had the two months across two pages and in pink it was kind of where we do big conferences. So. So you get that mass engagement with residents.

In yellow it was where we're gonna release a newsletter. So something physical goes to everybody to keep them updated.

In blue it was where we'd have a little residence shop where literally in the local community there was a derelict room, we could use that space where people could come at a certain time, drop in and ask any questions they have. And then there was another color for kind of door to door knocking.

Just because end of the day I, I can't Remember exactly, maybe 220, 240 properties, it's doable, you know, in terms of that real engagement and the difference made from me walking in that day to the then corporate director of housing and regen, Amanda and saying, you know, I've got this concept, can I run with it? And him saying, why not? I would say was at that level one of the most successful examples.

And afterwards I remember the then housing region manager said to me, many, many years later, you know, we won an award for the engagement that we did there because it was so broad and so varied. I never quite got to the bottom of that.

But he did say, and I think that is where it made such a difference to residents because what it meant is, we will make sure that we have given you every opportunity to understand what's happening here and every opportunity to understand where you have a voice. And yes, that Voice might be restricted to what color paint do you want on your walls and what color top do you want on your, on your countertops.

But at least we were honest and transparent and not making consultation out like they can have a bigger say than they can, you know. And actually for a lot of residents, that made a huge difference. Oh, they get a level of choice because often they don't even get that option.

So I think for me, real and meaningful consultation is when it's genuine, when it's transparent and when it's varied. And I really dislike the term hard to reach. I'm trying say more about that.

So when you say hard to reach, you almost put the ownership on the individual. So on the residents, they're hard to reach. You know, it's not my fault they're hard to reach.

When you think, I don't know, easy to overlook or I can't remember the exact term, but there is, you know, a contrast to that. It puts the ownership on you.

Yeah, it's a much better way of.

Thinking about it, actually. It's convenient, you know, that you just happen to not include them as part of it.

And when you hear it in that context, you make it your mission to make sure you find ways to engage. We, as part of that engagement, we had schools, you know, we'd go into schools four mornings, engage with parents. It's so easy.

But just from a service perspective, to go back on the ground and engage with our residents is often an amazing thing to do. And as a local authority, we owe that to our residents. I think.

Yeah, there's so many things in that that I could talk more about because one of the things I really like about what you said there is that it's about honesty, about where people can influence, where people can choose, where people are going to properly participate in co design.

And I think that's where a lot of the problems come with sort of just miscommunicating with residents about where there's space to co design whatever it is that we're making and changing. And what we should be doing is striving for more and more opportunities for residents to properly own and co design.

But if there are certain things that are just actually, this is it, this is the decision, these are the constraints, then we should absolutely not pretend that There is a space to co design, we should fight for it. But if it's not there, then we shouldn't pretend because it just breeds distrust, doesn't it, between residents and the organisation.

And the word trust, you know, everything stems back to trust. You know, to what extent do you trust your local authority? To what extent do you trust the decisions that are being made?

And we seriously underestimate the kind of sense of honesty and transparency. And again, that builds back to assumptions. You know, we think they won't realize or they don't care, but they do care.

Yeah.

And they do deserve that respect, that we actually are really honest and transparent and genuine with them.

Yeah. And I mean, just listening to the design of that engagement is an enormous amount of work. Right.

Like lots and lots of time and thought and people on the ground, you included. But that's just what it takes. I mean, you can't do that with no effort.

I think doing proper participation in the way that you're describing, proper consultation is just a lot of work, but the outcome speaks for itself at the end of it.

And I think we just need to accept, if we want to involve residents properly in the design of places and spaces and services just takes work, but it's also the right thing to do.

And, and you're right, because there is a difference. You know, it's, it's not really a capability, skill, so you don't need to bring in, you know, expensive resource or any, it's a capacity.

So you do need to invest time. Exactly, as you say. But if you think about it, essentially I was a graduate on, I can't remember, was it 26K?

We were, we were getting as grads at that time and I single handedly made it happen. So, so it is easy to do, it's not difficult, but it's just, are we prepared to invest the time?

Because it is a time commitment, you know, having someone at the resident shop three days a week at a certain time, setting up the conference, that kind of thing.

And, and, but the benefit of it is so strong and having people and, you know, residents say we've never seen engagement in this way before and it is, you know, thank you and you know, all of that kind of thing, it's, it's worth it.

It's completely worth it.

It's fragile though, isn't it, because it's, it's easy to undo that, that trust by approaching the next piece of work or the next engagement in a less than ideal way. So it's something that, yeah, it's something that needs to be consistent over long time. You know, people have got long memories. Rightly so.

But yeah, it's. It's tricky. Let's talk a bit about. Let's talk a bit about transformation. So you've been in transformation for 10 years?

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, about the same as me. What, what, what. What is that? What is. What is transformation to you? What's. What's that work?

I love that question because that's what everyone. So what is transmission? I don't know.

Explain yourself.

Yeah, literally. So you go on Google and you look for what does. What is transformation? And you'll get 50 different responses coming back.

I actually think that's right. So before it was always quite a scary thing where it is so open to interpretation.

And what I've come to learn over recent years is that is so apt because where transformation starts is where the organization is.

So for some organizations that might mean a focus on governance and grip and you know, realignment to what is our value, what is our purpose, what are we trying to do here? And it's just being. Having a bit more rigor with our finances and things like that. That's fine.

That's the right level of transformation for that organization based on where it is for other organizations.

It's having almost like a research function where the whole piece is proactively benchmarking, looking across the piece, being really proactive and thinking about the art of the possible in three, five, ten years. I know it's hard with local authorities.

You know, we never think anything more than three to four years because of elections, which I think is such a sad thing actually, because, you know, the scope of transformation is so much stronger. But you have that provision, but you kind of hear some brilliant success stories from that model.

And then somewhere, you know, all we keep doing is building the slides and the proposals, but it doesn't ever really land. So that's the challenge. And then you have the transformation where it's that kind of mix of strategy and delivery.

And it's a really hard balance because essentially what you're trying to do is move the organization to ensure the highest impact for residents with the lowest value. Which is hard often, but also is it. There's a.

What does mean lowest value?

Sorry, Lowest cost? Value isn't cost. My apologies. And I think there is some challenges at the moment where too many people reference PMO as transformation.

And it always breaks a little part of me when. When I hear People referring to transformation as pmo. PMO is a level of assurance that will always be needed in organizations.

So it's, you know, that portfolio management, program management side of things where you're just making sure that there's a good sense of ownership and accountability against what we agree to. Transformation is really about impact.

So it's thinking about, actually we work in local, this is specific to local authority obviously, but we work in local authorities where you have 2,000, 4,000, 5,000 plus staff.

We cannot ever say this is how it's always been.

But I'm still hearing it today and goodness me, like, how is it possible under all the financial constraints that we still accept that as a reason for anything? It just doesn't make any sense. So I think what transformation is, is, is number one, proactive.

So you're not doing something because you have to, you're not changing because you have to. Number two, it's, it's, it's a focus on impact. So it starts with impact. Yes, there's always this sense of savings.

I actually think when you start transformation from the point of savings, it's already reactive. So is it really transformational? I think when you start with impact, if you do it right, the savings will fall through themselves, essentially.

And I think it is consistently questioning and enabling the organization. Because the terrible thing is this ivory tower of a team that knows what transformation is.

Transformation is everyone's problem and it's everyone's gift as well. And I think having that curiosity mindset of. But why has it always been this way? What can we change?

And, and having an enabling a space to have those conversations is for me what true transformation is.

Yeah, I love that.

I think about, if you think about social workers in an organization, it wouldn't be strange to say social workers tend to have these kinds of values, these kinds of mindsets, these kinds of core skills. But I think that some people think that transformation is a bit of a, is a bit of a non job or is a, is not a profession in its own right.

And I couldn't disagree more with that sentiment. I'm interested with your experience of working in this space for 12, 13 years. What are the skills and what are the capabilities?

What are the ways of thinking that people work in transformation who are brilliant at that role? What is it that they bring to the role?

So nice touch on social workers, because my sister's a social worker and I'll always ask her, I'll be like, what do you think works? She's actually a social worker in Tower Hamlets. Yeah. So it's like, what do you think works? What do you think? And it's amazing how.

And I also have a friend who's a housing officer there as well.

So when I was working there, I'd often ask them, and the understanding that they have of the broken parts of the system and the parts that work really well is incredible. But how does the organization ask them? There isn't.

There hasn't been a space and, you know, so I think part of the issue, first of all, is giving voice to everyone in transformation. And it's often overlooked. And, you know, we've done that through Innovation Month and things like that across a number of organizations.

But there's a real opportunity there. I'm trying to remember the question.

No, no. So I was asking about. So I was asking about the skills.

Oh, yes, of course.

For people working transformation skills and capabilities and disciplines.

Yeah, that's the one. So essentially, everyone has, for me, the kind of worst thing you can do when recruiting into transformation roles is a tick box of qualifications.

That's amazing. You have the theory, you have the backing. For me, what's much more important is do you have resilience? Do you have a common sense approach?

And do you have an ability to constructively challenge as a critical friend? And the reason for resilience is transformation flexes.

So there will be times when you're like, gosh, I've actually got a lot of time today to do a lot of kind of proactive research and things like that. And there will be other times when you can't even get a toilet break in because it is crazy.

You start at seven in the morning at the desk because it's weighing on your mind and you're still there till 8 in the evening. You know, it can be really heavy and then you've got challenging stakeholders and then you're going to have to be.

They say the problem, I see it as the solution.

But you know, the person who's constantly trying to work through that and it's really hard, but it's also really amazing and you really need that resilience to build through it. And when I mentioned the.

The critical friend Aspect, I think there's a real skill to how you do that, because if you take things, and I spent much of my career feeling like some of the challenge was on a personal level. Sometimes you can't help it because you take so much accountability for what you're trying to do in ownership. It's almost you come onto the defense.

Yeah.

But if you can do it from a perspective where you validate every. You know, they're referred to as challenging stakeholders.

I actually think they're the strength in transformation because they're the ones that make you think and rethink what you're proposing. And it goes back to assumptions again, you know, make sure they're on. If you really are open to hearing them.

Actually, there's a sense of opportunity in what they say as well. So having the nuance to be able to do that.

And actually, there's so many terms in that, such as, like I said the word challenge, challenging stakeholders, or, you know, difficult people, or, you know, I. Anytime I work anywhere, it will always be like, oh, God, good luck with housing, for example, you know, the housing service, because they just.

But actually, when you really listen to them, the voices are so valid and there's so many solutions already there. So why would you go in with an assumption of what it is?

So I think from an individual perspective, thinking about traits, for me, it really is the resilience, the can do attitude. So having the drive to want to make a difference, and that comes with being proactive, you cannot.

To this day, in my team, I will never, ever say, can you lead on this piece of work? I will give the opportunities of where it is.

And I expect people to be proactive that want to take it on, to come and do it, and they always do, because that's the kind of recruitment that I do is I make sure it is people that want to make a difference and that one opportunity and want growth, because, goodness, there's so much growth available in the world of transformation on a personal and professional level. There's so many ways you can reflect with each thing that you. You work in.

And so I think having that want to make impact for residents, for the organization, but with the level of resilience, to kind of shield yourself and not take some of those challenges personally is a really high ask. And it's actually quite easy to pick up on that at an interview of, can someone handle that or not?

Above and beyond the kind of application form of everything they have behind them.

Yeah, I love all of that. There's one thing that Always sticks in my head when I'm. When I'm trying to recruit people to basis.

I'm looking for people that can demonstrate that they're able to build real, long lasting, productive relationships with people. Oh yes, colleague of ours.

Relationships, yeah.

So a colleague of ours, Rick Torseth, he says that relationships are primary and everything else is derivative. And I love that because in transformation there are so many perspectives that you've got to try and understand, try and assimilate.

There are so many moments of friction where people are going to be unhappy, where things are inevitably going to go wrong. It's not avoidable. There are always going to be things that go wrong in transformation and change projects.

And the thing that enables you to move through those problems are relationships with people and resilience, perseverance, you know, like wanting to. Being able to kind of keep going back at it and trying to be reasonably chipper about it as well and keeping the energy reasonably in a good spot.

But it's very hard, I think, to find all of those kind of skills and capabilities. There are plenty of people like it, but it's not. Yeah, it's in relatively short supply, I would say, those kinds of people.

I'm still struggling and this is 13 years in, you know, I think that human centered approach is key to transformation. I still to this day go home and reflect. Could I have had that conversation differently? Did I react in a way that maybe felt too personal?

And actually I just need to disassociate how I feel about, you know, the, the scale of opportunity and just think it's not maybe right for the organization right now and I'm getting better at it. Yeah, but I don't think there is an ideal because we're humans as well, so. So we're not going to get it perfect. But that's what I mean by growth.

Like the sense of growth in being in roles like that is immense. And that's why I said not just at a professional level, but also a personal level.

Because unlike many roles in organizations where you do the job, you go home and then you come back in the morning and you do the transformation is one where it is so individual centric, where I know if I ask this person to lead a project, it would be completely different to if I asked that person to lead the project.

And forever my leadership focuses on a growth mentality where I always think who will be able to give the best that the project needs but also grow in themselves as part of this. So it's a little bit challenging, but not too far that the project suffers as a result or the program. And even now. So obviously we may be.

I've just joined Bexley, we might be looking into recruiting at some point and for me, actually it's about framing questions around exactly what you say. So less around. Tell me about the theory of so and so or the tools and templates and much more about.

Talk to me about relationships and, you know, a senior stakeholder and challenges and a point at which you just kept getting pushback. How did you deal with that? How did you handle that? How do you keep an organization focused on long term impact when they have a day job to run?

Because I think all too often transformation is seen as a hindrance and not a help and that's a terrible place to be. We need to be enabling and supportive and understanding that there are commitments and services need to run their statutory services.

And we're in a fortunate place where we can be proactive. But that almost should now be a statutory need for an organization as well, because otherwise they will fall behind.

Yeah, no, I completely get that. Yeah.

I think for me, I would rather somebody that knows they don't know the answer to a problem rather than somebody that can confidently give me an answer to the problem.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because actually if someone knows they have the answer, that's a really dangerous place to be because then you're not going to open and listen to anything else. And you've just gone with. Back to my first week as a graduate when someone said we already know what the residents want. Worst place to be.

Yeah, completely.

We talked about essentially resourcing projects and trying to find somebody that is going to be good for the project, but also is going to be a growth opportunity for them.

Yeah.

What are you looking for in terms of growth opportunities at the moment? What are you trying to improve for yourself?

So for myself or do you mean for the individual?

No, for you. Yeah. As an individual, where are you trying to improve at the moment?

Oh, I like that question.

So now you're on the spot.

Yeah, bring it on. So look, you know, six weeks in, join London bar Bexley. Amazing move.

I sometimes talk to my friends and I'm like, I don't want to jinx it because, you know, you know, you suddenly something just fits. And it was the role that really attracted me.

Yeah.

But now that I've gotten to know the people, I'm just, Everyone's so nice in Vex and I'm like, I might be the problem here because I'm, you know, I'M not used to everybody just being so, you know, they've got an amazing retention rate. Lots of Vexley residents who work there and stay there and, and then lots of people who come from outside who then stay there as well.

And I'm like, I can, I can.

See why you mentioned about how you try and resource your projects in such a way that your team, you put the right person on the project for the project, but also try and stretch them a bit and help them to grow. And I'm interested in, in your own sort of development needs.

So what are you spotting in yourself that you're trying to, you're trying to improve at or grow. Grow in.

Yes. You know, this, this happens with transformation. We go off on a tangent and I'm like, what was the question? So, apologies.

So the reason why I mentioned six weeks in at Bexley is because there is a real focus on culture.

Right.

And I'm not used to that.

What is culture?

So culture of leadership first. And we're going to work our way through and I'm not.

So we have some core transformation programs, so early intervention and prevention, commercial, corporate core. So data and that side of things and customer and culture. Most will not have the culture because it's often overlooked.

Yeah, but it's absolutely core because without the right culture, you don't have anything, you know, you're not going to move anywhere.

And, and, and the first thing we do is have these days away with all of leadership, so corporate and extended leadership to talk about relationships and how is it working? How do we do our decision making? How can it be better? Oh my God, it's so refreshing.

And as part of that, we did a disc profile and it's, you know, like Myers Briggs and you. I always know where I'm going to end up. I don't know about you.

I do.

It's always got something to do with, you know, assertive and, you know, bold and that side of things. So, so we did disc profiles and mine is influence and dominance. So, so there's a number of areas.

So there's, you know, one focused on people, one focused on the rigor, you know, having the analytics behind what you do and really not moving forward till you're absolutely sure. Then you have dominance and then you have influence. And so mine's id, which is a strong level of influence.

And I'm sure that's evolved, you know, with time and, and so I'm close to a 12 o' clock on the desk. So it goes around like this. And from a Growth, perspective.

And part of the reason why I joined Bexley, knowing it's a bit calmer, you know, being out of London and a bit more at pace in terms of. At a slower pace in terms of how does things in a good way, more considered and more, you know, gives time to do the due thinking.

I want to move further down and I would love this. Makes me laugh because it's probably never going to happen. But at one point over the next year, for someone to refer to me as a patient leader.

What do you mean by patient?

That's the goal.

What kind of patient are we talking about?

I think I am so used to working in inner London authorities where everything has to happen yesterday and all at the same time and really fast. And it's amazing because it just keeps you going and you're like, you know, next thing, next thing, next thing.

But it makes you so demanding as a leader, but in a really positive way where people love the excitement. But what it doesn't do is just slow you down and make you think. Think about. Okay, but is this the right shout? And is this.

Do we want to have another chat or another conversation about this? And. And it.

In some ways it surprised me that I'm not necessarily in the people part anymore because I always used to be, because obviously relationships is core and, and.

But I think in moving up to influence and dominance and as you progress further in leadership, you kind of can lose sight of that closeness that you need in terms of your relationships and your people.

And you sometimes lose sight of really validating the work of what you're saying and just going with the work that's presented to you and not often questioning it in the way that you used to at one time. So when I say patience, I think it's taking the time to be okay, that a decision doesn't have to be made right now.

And actually the risk of jumping into something now without giving it the juice. Thinking versus the risk of doing something a month down the line, but you've given it. The thinking is far is a better option.

And I think in myself, I'm quite energetic and an extrovert and, And. And not that you've noticed. And. And, you know, I like framing things really quickly. And I'll be the first to kind of break the silence.

It's to be okay with silence. You know, you come. I don't want. I was always gonna say you come of an age, but I don't think I'm that far gone.

You're good. Yeah.

Yeah.

But, you know, you come at a stage where you eventually feel like, actually I want that side of transformation now, which isn't we're all going crazy trying to do everything. It's where actually I want to be patient with the organization but still get things done, but in a more positive, considered way.

Let's see if I hit that goal. I think it's unlikely for me as an individual, but maybe I can have a team around me that enables that for me a little bit.

I think that's a. I think that's a great goal and it resonates with me a lot because one of my. One of my faults is that I'm not a fault.

I was gonna say not fault.

No. There's a good.

There's a good and a bad aspect to it is that I'm pretty okay with being vulnerable with people about how I'm feeling about a situation. If I'm not. If I'm not happy or I didn't like the way an interaction went, or there's some interpersonal sort of friction there.

I'm really okay with saying that to people, but I realize that most people are not. And I sometimes really rush those interactions because I want to resolve them and I want to get it done and move on to the next thing.

But sometimes giving it a bit of time to breathe can change your perspective on the problem. Maybe it's not as big a problem as you think. Just like you were talking about giving decisions some time to breathe and to think about it.

So I resonate a lot with that.

I wonder if that links to. Because I feel it as well, almost overthinking things sometimes.

And it is probably because the nature of our work, Jo, our brains are always on the go and our minds are constantly. There's a weight of everything. And then we over reflect sometimes. And you're right.

And I think that links to me as well in terms of my patience goal, but just letting things lie a little bit and you don't have to address everything in every moment.

And that's okay because again, I don't know about you, but I'm quite critical of myself or I have been for most of my career, quite critical of how I can be better and yeah, what. What I need to change and you know, words like failure and things like that and right place, right time.

I've really stripped all of that away now and I'm kind of. I know where I need to be, but, you know, it's okay where I am now. Like, it's. There's many strengths and Areas for, you know, for growth.

But I don't call them improvement anymore. I just refer to it as growth. It kind of takes that, that feeling away of not good enough.

You know, I've spent a lot of my career, early years of my career feeling like that, potentially being made to feel like that, whichever way you look at it. And it's actually really liberating when you can finally let that go.

We mentioned the word failure. I think that failure is a good opportunity for learning. My mum worked in the civil service for her whole life and she would always, she was amazing.

She would always say that you don't learn from the things that go well, you learn from the things that don't go so well and that there are real opportunities there. I'm interested in some of the things that, you know, call it failure, call it learning, call it whatever you want.

But what are some of the things that have not gone the way that you wanted them to? Could be projects, it could be things that are much smaller than that, that, that you've, that you've most learned from.

Is this something that sort of sticks in your head, you know, when you, when you think about, when you think about failure?

Gosh, probably two things, one from a delivery level and one from a personal level. Okay, so, so the first I would say is when, when you. So there was a point earlier on when transformation really was just pmo.

It was just assurance governance, that kind of thing.

And it was when you see PMO as everyone that needs to complete this has to have it completed by this date or these are the implications and you email and then you email again and say, this is your last chance and da, da, da, da, da. That police mentality style pmo.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness, I've moved so far away from that. There is still a sense in me of accountability.

You know, if the organization needs something by a certain date, then it to me is basic etiquette that you meet that timeline amongst your other deadlines. But you do know to prioritize something that is important to the chief exec.

But at the same time actually just taking the time to drop someone, a team's message or just pick up the phone and say, hey, are you okay with this? Do you need any help?

Or, or, or actually just not sending that email and just having a chat with them across the desk or, you know, via teams and just saying, can I just get a sense of how your project's doing and I'll just do the update on your behalf and send it back to you and the focus that you said on relationships, it rings all through transformation and particularly in pmo. I think for any organization that still runs its PMO as a big, forceful deadline piece, you just lose sight of what you're trying to do there.

It just becomes a process and an industry in itself and it's as far away as we should be from what PMO is, which is understanding, enabling, honesty. Are they blockers trying to unblock again? It goes back to a help and not a hindrance. And where the best PMO ever is.

When services come to you and ask for help.

Yeah, yeah.

When they're trying to avoid you. Good God, you haven't done a good job there.

So that's from an organ like serious for me, examples of where we got it wrong at the start and, and, and from a personal level, I think because my mind quite quickly, so I don't take notes of anything. I remember everything really. So, yeah, so I have a friend who has a calendar with her other half for the kids appointments and I find that crazy.

So I've got three kids and I, I just know Iman's got this tomorrow, you know, he's got that tomorrow.

That's not right.

So I have a bit of a. Honestly. So even with meetings, you know, we had a huge board meeting yesterday.

I remember all the actions, so I don't need to take a note of anything. And I messaged the team this morning with a complete overview of just, you know, out of office this morning.

But here are all the key decisions and actions that were made yesterday. It just, it's just there. So, so I think my, so I procrastinate. So it takes quite a lot for me to be on top of things consistently.

But when I'm on it, I'm, I'm fully. And, and I think my mind works in that way where I can quite quickly get a grasp of where there's opportunities.

And I think what I did, and to an extent I still do and I reflect on, is very quickly reflect that back to leadership, to the chief exec, to corporate directors. So I will say, look, we have a serious challenge here of how we run things and there's a serious opportunity for how we can do things different.

Now how you land that conversation is more important than, than you think because essentially if you go in and you're already critiquing the current practice and you're already coming in as an. I know the solutions, it's not going to be great for your relationships in the long term. And I think I maybe did that in to Hamlets.

When I came back the second time as head of Transformation, unfortunately, leadership changed quite quickly because we had a change in chief executive, et cetera.

But what happened is the chief exec at the time will, you know, he loved it because I'm really bringing out some opportunities for the organization, whereas some of the directors at the time maybe didn't, because it's almost a fast critique, an unneeded critique. And I think I could have timed it better and landed it in a different way. So I think from a.

From a personal level, I would certainly count that as a real failure of. One of the challenges of transformation is you can too quickly diagnose things and almost sound like you, you. You have the solutions.

And it feels very individual and not very team and not very organization, for sure. And to think that after, you know, almost nine, ten years in Transformation, because I joined back, it was. It was three.

Three years ago now, I think, and I still did that at that point with all the learning. It's like, that's what I mean about the learning never stops and the growth never stops.

And I reflected on that and that's not going to happen anymore. But it did at that point. So I would say. I would say that's a really good example of where maybe some learning was taken.

Yeah. I interviewed Mark Smith, who was the chap that was responsible with his team for the Change of Future program in Northumbria, Liberated Method.

Really, really great guy. And it was a fantastic interview. But one of the things that stuck with me from that conversation was that he said it's not enough to be right.

So even if you're right in those interactions, doesn't matter. That's not what it's about. Yes, we need to be looking for, you know, the best solutions and we need to be helping organizations move forward.

But it's more than that is required. You know, it's, you know, timing, it's tone of voice. It's absolutely picking your moment. It's, you know, cultural competence in some.

Cases, sense of context, you know.

Context. Yeah, exactly.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's. But it's why it's endlessly fascinating, isn't it?

Yeah.

Let's talk about the other end of the spectrum. Successes. What about. What are some of the successes, transformation successes that you're maybe in just one that you're most.

Most proud about in your career so far.

Wow. I would probably say so. I was at Redbridge for a year on a second from Islington.

Right.

And they had a challenge where for almost three to five years. I can't remember exactly. They've been trying to present why they need to move from four buildings for customers.

So customers could walk into four buildings into one.

Right.

And they've brought in interims and consultancies and many, you know, varied expertise and no one's managed to get the sign off that's needed from members.

I remember moving in as transformation program manager and being told, you know, we've got, we've got another chance to get a business case into members in. I can't remember, it was four weeks or something like that. And I had two people, I think one was a graduate and one was an officer. Kal.

She was brilliant to work with me on it. I can't remember. Yeah, two people, I think, and one was part time as well. So yeah, lots, lots of detail for you there.

I did say about my memory anyway, really relevant to this. No.

And so, and so, and what I realized is it kept being presented as a savings exercise and members would never agree just to save money to have that level of impact on residents.

So what we actually did was agree to spend three days each at each of the buildings and sit and listen to every interaction that came into each of those buildings and, and then stand at the front and every resident that walked in just say, why have you walked in today? No preset answers, just why have you walked in? And what was.

First of all, it was exhausting, but so brilliant just to see firsthand what happens and really understand when services say there's some security risk. Like the reality of some of that. What we found was 60% of the people that walked in walked into the wrong building.

So 60% of the demand that was coming in was, oh, sorry, you need to walk down. Because one was for benefits, one building was for housing options, one building was for generic customer. Actually, I think it was three buildings.

But anyway. And 60% was you're in the wrong building, you need to go down the road to the right and then you'll find where you are.

20% That we logged was self serve.

But actually of the 20%, more than 80% of that number was where residents came in, said they wanted to, I don't know, register their child for a school at school place. And the member of staff would say, okay, take a seat, what's the name, what's the detail? Fill in this six page four.

First of all, why is it six page but six page form?

Yeah.

And they tick, oh, sorry. And they tick that off as self serve, but that isn't self serve. Because you've just done that for the resident.

So it was a misunderstanding of what it really means for self serve and things like that.

Now when we presented it back this time in the business case, we did it as a customer journey of at the moment a customer comes in and they have eight different check in points because there's multiple buildings they need to work out, which building then they need to work out, is it an appointment, is it a specialist, is it not? There's no triage, there's no sense of do they actually have to come in in the first place?

Which majority of residents, you know, either needed to come in because of a vulnerability but actually more than that they needed to come in because our online options were just rubbish, you know, not end to end, not, you know, that, that sort of from their perspective. So they were almost coming in due to failure demand.

So when you present it from a resident perspective and say actually to have one building where you have self serve options and in the libraries have 10 computers where there's one person available to help and everyone's trying to just get on with what they need, but someone's available at the point of need.

The level of positive impact that would have for a resident in the sense of actually they go to one place and they get what they need through whatever channel or route they need quicker visually looks so compelling that it was signed off and done within the year. You know, we lost our buildings, had one focus. It's still now Linton House, you know, that is the main place where residents go.

And I would say in such a short space of time, that's an example where you do not build in any assumptions. You go back to the residence and everything's based on evidence. We just don't do that enough. We never base our transformation on the facts.

We keep basing it on the assumptions.

Yes, yeah, yeah, I think that is, that's very well put. I mean organisations, public sector organizations want to be data led.

But the reality is in many of the organizations that we work with, they're sort of overwhelmed by enormous amount of KPIs that in some cases are unhelpful, in others drive behavior that's unproductive because people are trying to respond to the stats rather than respond to the need in the way that you're describing. And I'm interested in your perspective on what it means to be led by the data, led by resident experience. What does that look like when it happens?

Well, wow, it's so cool and it almost feels like a buzzword now.

Data led, data centric organization, and I hear so many organizations reference it, but then so little evidence of them really knowing or any of us really knowing what that means because we're not given the space and time. So I think data led or data centric is all about where every single decision you make is based on the data that you have in front of you.

And actually we know that doesn't ring true in practice because majority of the decisions we make is based on narrative. And narrative is just where you know, to be completely honest, if you can sit and secure information from desktop research, that's narrative.

If you've gone out and secured evidence and a baseline, that's data led. So number one, it informs decision making.

So actually to what extent are all the decisions made in the organization validated by, I want to say numbers, but also, you know, qualitative feedback in that kind of sense. And also I think the biggest thing here is when you deliver transformation, you can measure the difference. And that is actually huge, isn't it?

And it's so often overlooked where we keep delivering things, but we don't even know when we've delivered it or how to demonstrate the impact. Yeah, because we didn't have a baseline at the start.

So for me, a data centric organization is one where any change, improvement or transformation project or program starts with a really clear baseline to enable that real sense of benefits realization.

People think benefits realization is a spreadsheet where you just log some things, but actually, no, it needs to be so ingrained and embedded in the organization where everything you do is measured back to where you were. And otherwise how are you going to demonstrate impact?

Yeah, it's about learning, isn't it? It's not about a tick box exercise. It's not about massaging the figures to prove that the choices you made were the right ones.

It's about does this actually help? Is this a useful intervention that we have invested our time and effort in? Has it made people's lives any better? Are they thriving as a result of it?

I think it's definitely the learning, but also for organizations to invest in transformation resource. You know, it is expensive.

Yeah, yeah.

And you have to validate that resource and that expense. And how are you going to do that if you're not going to have a baseline of where you were and where you've gotten to?

Well, the only way is to be able to use the data that you have to demonstrate.

Actually, whether it's cost avoidance or saving, this enables a serious cost benefit analysis that demonstrates the benefit of having a transformation team. And I think too often we take that for granted of, of course, you know, when the change happens, we'll see the impact. Well, no, that's not the case.

If you don't and everyone thinks about benefits at the end, you need to start thinking about benefits right at the outset because that's when you really get that strong baseline in place.

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, we are, you know, we're the people that try and work in an agile way in Louisiana.

Yes.

Love Agile with services and that's why when it comes to, let's say, savings, this is on everybody's mind at the moment.

Yeah.

Working in an agile way enables you to test very quickly a different way of working a new intervention and to see are we making progress against the baseline that we've set. Not to the extent that we need at the end of this savings program.

We're not going to release a million pounds in six weeks of an agile project, but we might see some early evidence that things are changing, things are improving. Maybe we've avoided a little bit of cost.

If it's a temporary accommodation project, maybe if some fewer people are going into temporary accommodation, well, that's a good sign.

Maybe we are on the right track here and that helps us to validate that what we're doing makes sense and gives us confidence to keep investing in that piece of work.

I think it's crazy really to wait until the end of a big transformation program to see, well, did we have the impact that we thought we were going to have? Did we make the savings? I don't know what happens if we don't. Well, now we just have to chop an arm off at the end and nobody wants that.

That's not good for residents, that's not good for the staff.

I cannot tell you the beauty of Agile and I think, I don't actually know if you know this, but I only learned about Agile through basis. So when you did that training with Dennis, with us all those years ago in Islington, that was the first I'd heard of Agile.

And I can't now imagine transformation being anything but delivered in an agile way.

I think the waterfall traditional approach of as is and to be is fine for improvement and change, but because transformation is proactive and you don't have any answers until you start delivering and thinking about what works and then tailoring it and refining it, that is only ever possible through an agile methodology. And I think all organizations, if they haven't already for transformation, should adopt Agile and link up with you because. No, a little.

Where's that envelope?

No, no,.

Honestly, because you were so ahead of the time recognizing how critical Agile is in delivering some serious impact.

And I think everything now, you know, procurement, you know, how on earth can we call something transformation if on day one we've decided what the end game is gonna look like? Well, that's never transformation. I think the beauty of transformation is being comfortable, to be uncomfortable.

You know, I think it's, it's, it's so healthy to feel like you don't have all the answers and you don't know which direction things are going. That's real transformation, normal, right?

That, that's the default.

Not for local authorities, but it should be.

Yeah, it should be.

Exactly. That's the default. And, and, and I think one of the things that I've really found is, is to stop talking about Agile and just do it.

Because what we did initially, you know, when I first joined into Hamlets was we kept pushing and saying we need to be agile and we need to. And services almost stepped back a bit from it because it didn't, they didn't.

Well, they, you know, the specific terms and I realized that's not relevant to that. They don't think like that, they don't need to think like that.

It's, that's our business kind of thing, you know, to know the approach, but we just showed instead where we deliver through a sprint and then show them the outcome and then the next, and then show them the outcome and they loved it. And instead of trying to get buy in for Agile, just do it, you know, it works.

Just give a sense of the direction, the approach, the governance, the sense of, you know, I love a good kanban, you know, that kind of thing. And it just feels so modern and real and appropriate and relevant to the times that we're in now. I'm a huge fan of Agile.

I can't imagine actually doing anything where there's a clear business case that says where we want to be at the end now, like in terms of specifics for transformation.

Well, it's fantasy, isn't it? It's just made up.

Exactly.

The thing that we're trying to work through now is how we can help local authorities organize their savings programs in an agile way at a bigger level.

Because it's tricky because the governance of the organization is often very, very well established and it doesn't necessarily lend itself to kind of quick feedback loops from senior people that need to be involved and you don't want to create a situation where Very senior people are just in an enormous amount of show and tells the whole time that, you know, that's not going to work either. So it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a conundrum. I think it can work and we had some, we had some success in Hillington with, with that approach.

But I'm going to pick your brains on, on how we might be able to do that at a slightly bigger level rather than just at the project and program level. More at the.

Yeah, it's a really good point and I think there's really something about intelligent risk taking. So, so, so I think the biggest challenge in local authority is, isn't actually capacity or capability really, it's risk taking.

We don't like to take risks because obviously with risk comes a level of accountability and you know, you've got to own that.

But I think there's really something about intelligent risk taking and I think that also links to decision making thresholds and to what extent can we start realizing and recognizing that we trust the next here?

So whether it's deputy directors or whether it's directors or heads of service to have a level of decision making that will get us to a place where we don't need to worry because the overall goal is still the same and it will work in an agile way. And then it will only come to us at key milestone points which may not be every two weeks because that's.

But every few months so that we can touch base and almost leadership feels a bit more comfortable with. Not everything needs to come to leadership at a decision point, but everything just comes as a.

Actually we want you to be a part of this and not just a decision maker at the end.

And I feel like we're really there with Bexley from some of the conversations that I've been having so far and some of the boards that I've gone to where either it's been curated or it's just naturally there in their culture anyway. But it's quite refreshing to see that they actually quite like things coming back regularly and touching base and that side of things.

And, and it is hard because there are, there's a never ending list of CLT items and you know, things like that.

But actually I do think organizations need a recognition that there is a new way of working now and there is a question there for corporate leadership on the threshold with taking risks and the threshold we've taken decisions and the level of trust, autonomy and, and ownership they're prepared to give the next tier down to Enable this new way of working.

I think that's very well said and I agree with all of that. I think another thing for me is more ruthless prioritisation of what we're actually doing.

Oh, absolutely.

Rather than just pretending that we can do everything. I mean, you can do everything. You just can't do it all at once. That's how it works.

And I think sometimes you fall into the trap of agreeing to too many things and pretending like they're all going to be able to move on at the same speed.

We've done project amnesties in lots of local authorities and you get, you know, you've got the registered agreed list, which is already way too long. And then you get the ones that come out of the woodwork when you do the amnesty.

And you've got hundreds and hundreds of projects and improvement projects. And that's just not realistic, is it?

And I think that's so important because, you know, we're looking at the transformation team structure at the moment in Bexley. And what I'm really doing is breaking up as you have transformation, you have delivery, which is your change and improvement.

You have the analyst part, BAs and user experience and mapping, and you have PMO, which is your assurance.

And I think one of the challenges is not just the merge of PMO and transmission, but also the merge of change, improvement and transformation, because they're very different. And to that end, I feel like actually it will never be transformation if there isn't a sense of prioritization.

And that will never be anything more than a set number of priorities.

And I think having someone in the organization that is really comfortable with setting those boundaries for you or, you know, or, or, you know, sometimes it's harder to do that when you're working with an organization as opposed to when you're in the organization.

But identifying the person who can set those boundaries and have that sense of prioritization really clear with leadership, of here's the things that will get you the highest impact the quickest with the ease of implementation, at least we believe let's focus on these things and then we'll go to the rest.

And you know, that sense of phasing and is really important and I think it's actually really enabling for leadership to have someone do that for them as well. I think all too often, because we're afraid to set those boundaries, we almost just take it as, you know, let's just get on with it.

And actually when we're a bit more bold, bold and we go in and we say okay, so of all of these, we've got a prioritization matrix and these are the big hitters.

Yeah.

That is really likely to make a difference. Let's focus on these things before we come onto these things.

Is, is, is actually really bold and, and I think, I think there's something there that we don't do enough and we should maybe explore more.

Yeah, very well said. So look, we're, we're coming to the, to the end of this. I've got some Quick Fire questions for you.

Oh, God. Okay.

And who's the person that's most inspired you in your career?

Oh, wow. I would say John Underwood, who was my first ever manager in local government.

And I think moving, like I said, from voluntary sector to the sixth floor, working on strategy, I would have left within the first couple of weeks if it wasn't for him believing in me so much. It just takes someone to believe in you. That's all it takes. And you know, look at my career now and I will forever be grateful.

I'm so sad because he passed away. Oh, shit. And, and he was amazing. So. Yeah, always him.

Okay, John Underwood. That's lovely. What about.

Is there a piece of research that you've read at some point in your career or maybe a course or something like that that you still think about or you still, you still apply when you, when you're doing your work?

Wow, these are really big questions for quick. I know.

It's not that quick, really, is it? I mean, obviously agile. We talked a lot about Agile, but.

Yes. Do you know, I would probably go for agile. And credit to you because. Actually, no, honestly, I just say that to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

These are preempted. But no, honestly, it has reshaped the way that I deliver transformation to this day.

And I think I didn't at the time realize the impact and the relevance it would have today.

Nice. And then what do you want your legacy to be in local government? These are not at all.

These are huge. We should have started with this.

I need to work on the Quick Fire questions. It's not Quick Fire.

Yeah. I think the legacy I want to leave is the strength, the real strength in having a voice at the top table. That is different.

That is different, I think.

What do you mean by that?

So I think what I'm trying to say is if your voice is different to the status quo, that's an amazing thing.

And whereas before it used to be perceived as a problem, I actually see it now as a huge value and we need more of those bold and unique voices who are open to saying, actually, no, I'm not sure we can all agree to this for so and so reason, you know, so long as it's valid. But I think for me, it is being able to demonstrate that actually having the voice that represents and is different is a really good thing.

And it really makes us reconsider and rethink in the best way possible.

I think it's a really lovely place to leave it. Aisha, thanks so much for agreeing to do this.

Thank you so much for inviting me.