In our latest episode, Jenn and Mistie encounter a book that challenges both of their comfort levels. We grapple with the intricate dance of power dynamics and consent, while dissecting the book's representation of master-slave relationships, pet play, and the broader impact these narratives have on the BDSM community but also in a true alternative lifestyle relationship.

Content Highlights:

• Curious but total Mindfuck
• Struggling with how to respond to this book
• Is this really our rating?

Jenn's Rating: Darkness 5, Spicy 5, Overall 1 but 4 for the first 60%

Mistie's Rating: Darkness 5, Spicy 5, Overall 2 or 3

NEW DARKNESS SCALE UPDATED JULY 2, 2024 - 5 Skulls

Other Books Mentioned: The Handmaid's Tale, Perfect Strangers, The Ritual

Maya. He said gently, you haven't got this straight. She looked up. This is not a reciprocal arrangement. It's not about giving you a kinky good time. If all goes well, I'll own you body, mind, all of you. If you're going to be my property, I need to know what I've got, what you're good for, like buying a dog. Is it the right kind for what I want? Does it have the right disposition? Can it be trained? And today we are talking about, as she's Told by, annika Jacob I said that very confidently, but I don't know if that's actually how you say her name.

I think that that's about right. That's what I would say. I struggled with this book not because of the content. I struggled because of the writing style. Have you ever read Margaret Atwood, the Handmaid's Tale? No, I feel like the writing style was like that and I struggled because it was hard to determine who was talking at points.

Who was talking?

What they were talking. That's why it took me freaking forever, because it was hard to stay within the story when I'm struggling. Okay, wait, I got to go back a page. Wait, who's reading? How does this transition? Yeah, yeah, it just wasn't.

The flow was not well done yeah, so that's the that's the first thing I didn't like about it, the most basic thing ever. Okay, so let's talk about how you came across this book first, before we jump in. I mean, you don't, we don't to if you don't want to, cause I've never heard of this author, like she doesn't have a website, like there's nothing anywhere except for won an award that you shared with me that I've got.

Well, and I didn't realize it had it had won an award until I can't even remember what we were looking at. We pulled it up on Amazon. Which how is this allowed on Amazon? And like other things aren't, maybe because it's lax popularity, I don't know. Anyway, I happen to see where it won an award.

And this is obviously an author that like didn't pursue it full-time or it's doing something else under a different pin name or something, because there isn't a lot of works that she has. And I tried to read another one of her works and I dnf'd it because I couldn't handle. It's kind of the same thing, like I couldn't handle the writing style of it yeah, I don't.

I understand why they recommended this, but it's it's not orgasm denial in a good way. Oh well, okay, we should start with. We're probably going to say some things that are not plenty correct and they're going to piss people off. This should not surprise you. If you've been with us this long for season. You know know, our second season.

Yeah, I mean, we cover a lot of like dark romance.

I Okay. I think I think she missed too many Mixed too many kinks and that bothers me. Like Master Slave is one kink, then like the pet thing. I don't even know if there's a real word for it. Is there a word where you treat?

yeah, it's a pet kink right it's pet play.

I'm like yeahpe is like one step close to bestiality. Right, the bestiality is just having sex with the animal, but they're making a human pretend that they're an animal. So do they really want to be with the human or do they really want to be with the animal?

I mean, I feel like that's where I get confused.

I mean, I don't think, at least in my I can see where some you could argue that in some cases Like I know part of it is like my ignorance, because, you know, I don't know, because I don't live the scene, but I just feel like it's a fine line, or maybe just I'm being weird and it's not.

No, I don't think you're being weird. I think when you get into like, well, okay, let me just. I think the first thing we have to like, maybe establish, in my personal opinion, is that this book is not an accurate representation of a typical like master slave BDSM relationship.

In my opinion, in books that we've read. No like, just in general in like in the scene.

Yeah, like, even if you have, like a master-slave relationship, like there's still, like you have hard limits, you have boundaries, the the quote-unquote slave in the relationship has choices they make prior to going into it, even if it's an, even if it's a complete power exchange. And none of that exists here. She consented to give up her choice and to give up. Basically. She consented to not consent, regardless of what it was.

I think you're right. I would hope that you are right. Okay, that would be my hope is that you are right. Okay, that would be.

My hope is that you are right I yeah, okay, that helps set the tone Well, and that's that's just based on you know, just research I've done in the king the community over the years. Like you look at any any type of like bdsm kink, you know, whatever community blogger forums, whatever, and everything is negotiated beforehand, like bdsm is there's, like there's a consensual safe there's. There's another saying like css is like what the bdsm community typically lives by and it's consensual, safe and and sane. So like there's a lot of things in this book that cross those lines. So again, I don't think I don't think you're looking at like a typical BDSM relationship in this book.

This is something that takes it well beyond sane or safe.

Even really honestly the bds7 community. They have like rules that the community lives by and it's like it has to be consensual, it has to be safe, it has to be sane. So like, for example, there's, you know, there's, there's a act that you can see where, like they would have their slave or their sub or whatever, like lick shoes, but in case that can be not safe if you've been walking around, you know, in the New York subway or you know wherever. So you have to take into consideration like is it consensual, is it safe and is it sane in order for it to be like what the BDSM community deems true BDSM, or crossing into the line of abuse or, you know, not typical BDSM, which is, I think, where this book lands so I think this book calls into question if it were a real master slave relationship, because I think that's one of their moral dilemmas that they have at the beginning when they meet in the chat room is well, is it really a slave if I'm still making decisions because the whole point is not to.

So I think maybe this was written to challenge that or to show that it's not true. But I yeah this book, man. It really fucks with your head it it.

it I feel, feel it's like I'm so glad I made you read this also. Sorry, but also thank you, um, because I read it and I I was okay until there. I'm trying to think. Once he took into consideration like she did not want to be with women and he still made her be with women. That really bothered me. Yeah, like I get it. I get why I understand that she consented to not consent this entire time, like she gave up all of her autonomy and for her, like if he hadn't forced her to be with the women, she would have felt like she had failed him anyway. So like that dichotomy just fucks with me so much.

No, I don't think so, because he, I think. I agree I did not like that at all, because I think that he should have took her comfort into well-being on some of these things and he should have been able to read the signs, because he's always talking about I need to be able to read her to check. So if you can see that it's, then you knew and you could have changed the parameters of what was taking place without her feeling that way or forcing her to feel that way. That's the thing I think a lot of it was forced to make her feel that way.

Well, I think what I think for her. She wanted to give up autonomy in a place that she felt safe For him. He wanted complete, utter control of someone in as many ways as possible, and by him forcing her to do that, it was his way of asserting that right, quote, unquote, that he owns her, it didn't matter what her comfort level was.

And that really more than anything in the entire book, which has so many lines crossed.

That bothered me the most, that and the whole making her into an animal thing. I okay, so I skimmed that. The last, what is that?

like 100 pages, 50 pages, 75 something when we're talking about when she's a dog, when she's a cat or when she's a horse that once they go out cat or when she's a horse.

That once they go out to the country farmhouse.

Oh yeah.

And they're there for like two months. Is it two months or a month? It's a while.

About two months. Yeah, July and August. I think they make her into a pony yeah.

Yeah, yeah that I skimmed through quite a bit. Through quite a bit because because, again, and unless the animal aspect and more the like, constant, like force to perform for the women I'm surprised he even shared her at all I was too that I felt like that went against his grain yeah, I, I don't care that they're his brothers. Yeah, no, I didn't, I didn't care for that, didn't care. But again, I think it just goes back to him Asserting that ownership.

I mean, but he didn't need to, he owned her.

I completely agree. I think it. I think it actuallyened their like, the building of their relationship.

Uh-huh, I'm not going to lie. It was hard to imagine some of the shit that they were doing and the things that he put on her doing and the things that he put on her I. I couldn't. It was hard to imagine because I've never seen anything like that or read anything like this to this extent. I mean, I've read some master slave books before, but not I can appreciate his check-ins with her, even though she didn't like them. Yeah, but at the same time.

Okay, so the whole point is that she doesn't like them. Yeah, but at the same time okay. So the whole point is is she doesn't want to have control, she doesn't want to make decisions, she wants somebody else to do that for her. But I feel like when you're in an environment like that for long bouts of time, you become conditioned. So even if you wanted out, you're conditioned to stay in.

And doesn't he mention that at some point in it that she's going to get to a point where, like, she can't leave him, or maybe he doesn't?

I don't remember. I'm glad that they put a timeline on it.

Yeah, Because the first like arrangement is a year right.

With check-ins every three months or something like that yeah, and I'm glad that he still allowed her to be outside of the house and to have friendship and to work. So that was that I feel like is a positive but but I don't, I, yeah, I don't. I have so many problems with this book and this mindset and Well, I think this is because I have the.

I think I have the same, probably issues with it that you do, but what I kept coming back to is she consented.

I know.

Like it's what she said she wanted and she continued to agree to the relationship at every check-in. And even at the last check-in that you see in the book, she says she doesn't want the check-ins anymore, she doesn't want a way out anymore.

I mean she initially, but again, like I don't know, I really I think I could handle everything except for the pet stuff Her eating out of a dog bowl, her using the kitty litter box, him walking her like a dog outside in the backyard. Her using the kitty litter box, him walking her like a dog outside in the backyard. That I was never sucked into this book at any one given moment.

I was never curious, I was never, I was never. With this book I I just yeah, yeah, I can't, I can't. I think maybe if it was, I want to say this is probably a lie. I want to say if it was written better it might have been okay, but I still don't think I would have been okay with it. Like who the fuck was he texting?

like most of the fuck, was he texting His brother Most of the time?

Was it Seven Sven? Whatever, yeah, sven.

Yeah, I think that's who he was texting the majority of the time. I do think he texted that one woman that he worked that was on his crew for a while. I can't remember her name Val.

I did not like her.

Yeah, I did not care for her either.

I was really surprised that he allowed other people to be abusive to her too.

Yeah.

Because Val was very. I think everybody else was mildly okay, it was just Val.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't. I mean, if we just? Okay, so let's just walk through the book because I don't feel like I can pinpoint things. So they meet in the chat room. She asks a question that piques his interest of is it really master or slave? If I have a say in it, you know it's a conundrum, catch 22 whatever they meet at a party, they have instant attraction. They sleep together the first time, like they date, while she finishes her education, which I thought that was really good. He forced her to finish. He's like no, your education is important, you're gonna study da, da, da, da. Yeah, like there were some things that were just contradicting of him being in total control that he still, you know, I don't know, maybe I just have a stereotype in my head that a master-s slave relationship. He wouldn't want her to have that education or to finish it, or you know, the job or the friends I think that's one thing that I actually liked about him probably the only things is that he?

he did make sure, especially in the beginning, that he placed guardrails basically on the ramp up. Wow Well, really far with that pun.

Very accurate though.

Yeah, yeah, I mean to her actually moving in and living that 24 seven. You know he tests and living that 24-7. You know he gave her certain parameters and rules and she kind of learned a very small amount of what it would look like with him full-time in the beginning, while still having education. And that's one thing that has always intrigued me about true BDSM relationships is having a dom that has, like, your best interest in mind. So they, like they put rules on like you need to eat healthy 80% of the time, you need to work out four days a week, you need to finish your essay on time, you need to. You know those types of things. And then you're punished when, like, you don't meet those requirements. And I'm just like, hmm, you know, if I had somebody that was kind of like punish me if I didn't work out, I'd probably work out more.

Right.

So with that kind of stuff, that type of relationship has always again intrigued me, where I'm like, okay, you know I could see the appeal there, so I really liked the setup and I think that's how I got like not hooked, but definitely intrigued. In the beginning I was like you're tricked, like okay, he's, he's really setting this up to like give her a choice to make sure that she is consenting to this relationship and ensuring that she still, you know, gets her education, has her job, is doing what she needs to do on her own. And even when she moves in, like all of her money gets put in a separate bank account. He doesn't touch it. He doesn't even touch it for her stuff. He completely takes care of her for that year and she would have an entire year's salary to go live her life if she decided to opt out of the relationship.

So I think he set that up or the author did a good job of like setting all of that up. It was I'm trying to. The kitty litter box was definitely like I did not like that at all. I did not like that at all. Yeah, I guess in that aspect of the pet play, like going outside, like all of that I didn't care for, like leash, collar restraint, like all of that I can handle, but like leave the potty stuff alone or go to the bathroom like a normal human.

I mean I could, even I would have been okay still with the chamber pot, I guess, but that just yeah, there were so many things that just rubbed me the wrong way. That was the biggest one, besides the end with the females like that, just I don't understand how you find that attractive or sexy.

Well, and again she really struggled with that. I you know, every time he would take like he I mean he would like really take treat her more and more like a dog or more and more like property. You know, it was like the quote that you mentioned her self-autonomy always reared up.

Mm-hmm, because it's human nature to do that as a human Right. Yeah, I think my issue, another issue with it is once he's molded her and she becomes the perfect, whatever idea he has in her head, what's next? Because I think it's more about the control and the molding her into it than it is her act being it, and once she becomes it fully, what is he still gonna want?

Do you think that's even possible? Because if she was living it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, then I would agree. But he's insistent that she keeps a job, that she has relationships outside of their home. Like she's in that relationship, we'll say 18 hours a day, you know, but she still has. She still has to go out in reality. I still don't think that I don't. I don't know that she would ever fully become.

I mean that's quite true.

But I just I mean that's quite true, but I just I'm with her on her thought process because you know, sometimes he could read her she would be like, oh my gosh, she's not going to want me anymore after this and he would subtly reassure her this isn't going to change.

But I just, I don't know, it's like a gut feeling, which I could be wrong, obviously, and I say that and the only reason why I feel like it's reinforced is because at the end, at the barn, where he doesn't sleep with her, makes her sleep in the barn. And I'm like, and even though he kind of had that thought, oh she's not here, how am I supposed to sleep without her here? But he could sleep without her there. And I'm like, and I, even though he kind of had that thought, oh she's not here, how am I supposed to sleep without her here? But he could sleep without her there. And I think that's the problem that I had was that he was able to sleep without her next to him for eight weeks or two months or whatever it was. That's a long time.

Yeah.

So there's a disconnect there, and I think that's why.

There's no way, there's no way. If I was in a serious relationship or, you know, not as serious as theirs, obviously, because I don't think I could ever do that, no, ever. And I say never, ever, ever with a steal no, no, no way, absolutely no, anyways. But if I was in, in, you know, they've been together, it's practically been a year and you're okay, even if it's for whatever play you're doing. And that was another thing. Their big thing was is oh, we don't want to play games, we don't want to play mind games, but then he ends up doing it anyways. Making her pretend to be an animal is play, because she's not really one. Making her pretend to be a pony and drive you guys around for your fun because you want to go on a picnic is play. It just irked me. It irked me. I was like you're lying and maybe you don't think that it's play because whatever is in your head, but you are playing pretend.

Yeah, I don't think you're the only person I could ever suffer through this book with me I mean like I don't even think I would consider this a romance. No, I don't.

It's definitely it's erotica. For sure it's not romance, it's erotica.

Yeah for sure. And there was nothing. Even though this book is going to sit with me for a very long time, or us. I didn't connect to this book at all in any way, shape or form. Yeah, some of the toys were kind of interesting the shield and the chastity. I was really concerned he did not like having sex with her. There was more oral in this book, I think, than I have ever read ever. I literally think they only had vaginal sex like maybe three times. I don't even think I'm exaggerating when I say that Okay, when she moves in, obviously when she's at the apartment, I think they have sex like two or three times.

Once she moves in, though it's like barely like two or three times.

Once she moves in, though, it's like barely like two or three times but again I think for him he gets off more on seeing how far he can push her, seeing how far he can like, how much he can control, more than anything else I don't disagree with that, but he used her mouth quite a bit well.

Yeah, because he's still getting aroused.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that, but he used her mouth quite a bit well.

Yeah, because he's still getting aroused yeah, I don't know, and it like I didn't think because I didn't read the blurb. You just told me to read this book, so I read it um so I had no.

I mean, besides the master slave thing, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Yeah, so at first, you know, you're kind of like okay, there's the cuffs. You know there is the orgasm. Now where he puts her on the board and just lets her go for an hour, like to punish her for getting off while she was in her sleep. Like, really Like dude, come on, like I get it, but at some point, I don't know, it was really weird.

Yeah, yeah.

I feel like there's a lot of things to say. I just don't know what to say now I did.

You know, I think it's one of those books that, like, if you're gonna read it, read it for like, maybe challenging your way of thinking up, you know, or I don't know, but yeah, there were a lot of things and that and and like I guess that's one of the things that kind of bugs me, that it won a bdsm erotica award somewhere, because I don't consider this like what, what I think if someone in the I would love to know, like I want to talk to like a practicing dom or a practicing dominatrix, and be like I want you to read this and then I want you to tell me all the things that are not going well, like all of the lines that are crossed, because I mean I obviously, I say obviously, maybe it's not obvious, but like I have, I am not in the BDSM community.

I have never been in the kink community. All I have done is research, you know, in my own ways, but from everything that like I've read, this wouldn't this isn't considered true BDSM. So I would love to know someone in the community, like what's their opinion on it?

Okay, so again, this could be me not knowing, but I thought master-slave was completely different from bdsm well, no, not necessarily like.

You can have a master slave relationship within a bdsm relationship, because bdsm is bondage, domination, sadism and masochism yeah yeah, so you can have.

I mean, there's a. There's a whole bunch of different types of relationships you can have within a BDSM community. You can have like total power exchange, which is what this is, but again, this is beyond what typical total power exchange is. Again, you talk about your hard limits. You talk about you know the things that like, basically, you do like a red, yellow, green list. You know like things. You will ask Like her red would be women. And that happens all the time.

Yeah, I got it. I mean, I'm pretty sure I got a lot rolling around in my head. It's really hard, like it's really hard to dissect and like dig in because, one, we're not a part of the community. Two, never experienced anything like that. So we have the stereotypes and the prejudice against what is right, what is not right, and so it just this book is a mind fuck yeah and not necessarily that's what I was about to say.

Yeah, not in a good way at all. Yeah, like I really. When did I just finish it? Friday or Saturday, almost a week.

It took me to read this book me a week, because well, yeah, the writing style sucks, but also or sucked, but also like the material is, it was not up until now granted like I think the kitty box. Litter had already played at that point so I didn't care for that. But I could like, like, okay, whatever, I'll just skim it, but like after the bluegrass festival, I feel like it just.

Escalated very quickly.

Yeah, and it like I didn't like everything. After that point I was just like this doesn't feel Natural, or right.

Yeah, like it doesn't feel like a continuation of them building like trust, control, you know that kind of thing, because I feel like up until that point he was, he was owning her in ways that like she received pleasure at some point. You know like in some, in some way, in some scenario, and after the, the festival, all of her pleasure. I don't know that she or she got off at Christmas, but like that was it for the rest of the book, you know.

So I'm just like I don't. Like I understand you want to own somebody, you want to control some. I can get, I can get that. Okay, I'll give it to you. Like everything leading up to that point, Okay, I'm cool with it. But like, even if you own somebody and you have like this type of relationship, they should still and I'm, and maybe maybe that that was the point Like they should still receive pleasure and satisfaction, was the point like they should still receive pleasure and satisfaction, and I feel like that didn't happen at any other point.

It almost felt like the author decided to change the trajectory of the story without going back and like making it match yeah yeah, there was he he had.

He was cruel at points up to that point, but after that point to me and I guess that's where I really started to struggle it just became cruelty.

Just for the sake of it.

There's no rhyme or reason and no reward, yeah and no, no reward. You know like I again do. She obviously gets off on pain. So I can understand again, can understand it to an extent. But if you put somebody in that situation and you're constantly cruel and there is no reward, there is no pleasure, like that's when, like I, can't suspend belief anymore, because why would somebody continue to choose to be in that type of relationship? Even if they want that level of control, she still would have expected pleasure at some point. Or do you think she stays because the level of pleasure she gets when it's allowed? I can't see that.

No, I can't, I think, because at this point, now again, that's what I was worried about, that conditioning of the conditioning yeah. He's giving me what I want. I've never found it from anybody else.

Yeah.

This is now. It's this you know vicious cycle of this is what I asked for, right? She's conditioned herself. This is what I asked for, so this is what I deserve. And I don't think her friend Nikki was asking the right questions about it, because at this point and I think maybe that was why there was that flip because now you know, hey, I'm a stranger, here's my candy. I've already got you in the van, like now, I just need to shut the door. And once the door shut, then I don't need to give you the candy. No more, I've already tricked you into being here.

Yeah.

But I do have to say, though he was upfront with her at the very beginning you will be humiliated, you will be degraded, like he told her ahead of time, but knowing it and living it are two separate things which I think he tells her too, because he said humiliated, degraded, abused, like he would be cruel for the sake of being cruel, and and again, like there was plenty of that.

But every time, until the bluegrass, until after the bluegrass festival, she always got pleasure at some point, like always, and then and before that they also still had interactions of being in a real human relationship.

I think that's also the starting point of where he wanted her less human less talking. See, this is why I'm saying does he want the human or does he want the animal? I was really confused by that because after that point you don't need to be talking. Sometimes you're sleeping in the bed, sometimes not. You're at the foot of my bed. You're in the crate. I created a crate for you. That's where you're going to stay. It's where he put her. It was more into.

you are an animal and not a human yeah maybe that's why he doesn't do a lot of vaginal sex, because maybe he knows that it's a human, so that's why he only does the mouth, because then it would be really weird if, oh, you're a kitty cat and I'm fucking a cat or horse or whatever, like I don't know, it know it just. Yeah. So I agree, that was a good. That was a good point in the story of after that, when he like flips a switch.

Yeah.

I really thought he was using her and was going to betray her. I really thought it was all a setup for some research and at the end he was going to be like, okay, I've got my research, we're done.

I think I would have hated that more than what actually happened.

honestly, or maybe during the research, he falls into it and he likes it and he stays. Yeah, that would have been interesting. Okay, totally random thing that I hated about this whole entire book that really pulled me out is their fucking arguments about housing and politics.

That was very. It's almost like she was like this book should have a plot somewhere. Let's put it here. It's not even a plot no, it's not, but I think it was a way for the author to show how smart and educated Maya was, even though she was turning into property, because she's the one that ends up coming up with the final solution that actually works yeah, anyways, total random.

I hated that. It was stupid. I would pull all of that out. I skipped a lot of that. I was like, but actually it was really hard to skip, like you couldn't skip because the transitions were so fucking ridiculous. Anyways, just a little tangent that popped up in my head as we're having this discussion, of him turning her into an animal. Yeah, yeah, it was. I don't hate it, but I don't love it, like I don't even know what to do with this. I don't know if.

I would ever recommend it to anybody, unless they were like legit looking at master slave.

Even then.

This is forever always going to be the first thing that pops into my head when people ask about master slave, even like purpose, I mean I. This is forever always going to be the first thing that pops into my head when people ask about master slave. Nothing else I've ever read is going to pop up into my head. It's going to be this one. Okay, there's no washing it out of the brain, it's there, it is rooted. It has taken up space. I will never get that space back. Okay, it's not going nowhere. This is one of those books that just stick with you, regardless if you like it or not. I'm pretty sure, Jenn, I guarantee you, if somebody said, hey, have you read any master's slate books? You might not say it, but this is the first thing that's going to pop in your head. Is this?

one. Yeah, I mean yeah, it'll probably be the first one that pops in my head, but no, I would never recommend literally anybody else read this book.

No, my first question would be are you reading this for knowledge or for pleasure? Because if you're trying to read for pleasure absolutely not. If you say knowledge then I'm going to be like are you okay with a mindfuck, a legit mindfuck? Because if you're not okay with a mindfuck of a book taking root in your brain because it's never going to go away, you cannot read this book. You just cannot.

You can read it for curiosity, but it's forever going to taint a piece of your soul. It just is. There's no way around it. Yeah, I struggled with a lot. Yeah, I struggled with this so much. Yeah, I I need you to find who recommended this book to you so we can invite them on the podcast and have a discussion it wasn't even somebody that recommended it to me. I just saw it in the Facebook group, because I don't think this book's going to go away for quite some time.

Yeah, okay, so we won't be able to invite him or her because it was an anonymous member.

Good for them but upsetting for us.

Yeah, yeah, they were anonymous and she was asking because of the orgasm denial well, you definitely get that in spades.

He does not like her getting off at all yeah that that was not hot man the don't. I mean, it was so hard to imagine, like oh.

And all the piercings down there.

I couldn't even tell you what any of that was.

Yeah, so I, yeah, I.

Did you Google?

I tried. I don't know what she. I don't know if what she created actually exists because he has so many things custom made for her yeah. I mean, I obviously like you, I know chastity belts exist and that kind of thing, but I couldn't find anything close to what she described okay, so.

I'm like a thing because and that was one thing that I saw in one of the reviews, I think that was like that when he, when she was pierced, that that was like a line that the that reader really struggled with and I didn't disagree like she's just gonna be strapped down with no anything and pierced how many times eight six or eight yeah that was the least of my concerns.

They were more.

I mean, I understand that could be triggering, but they were more oh yeah, there were definitely more, more than but, and I and again, it wasn't something that that I noticed at the time, but what she said said that she was like. I was like, yeah, well, that's actually a really good point.

And the thing with the nipples, like they he pulled and like tugged a lot on the nipples and like having them be in weight. Look, I was in a lot of pain reading this book and it wasn't even happening to me. Okay, I did not enjoy it. Oh, it's funny, I'm just uh.

and yeah, the constantly, constantly being in the corset was interesting yeah, like the corset and then whatever strap thing he had her in. I couldn't, I couldn't.

That was another thing I've had a really hard time picturing I just thought it was a corset or like a bodysuit, I don't know.

I think I think she had to wear a corset along with some type of like strap harness thing. Maybe I'm wrong.

No, she had lots of harnesses at some point.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just I don't yeah, Well, thanks for centering through this book with me. You're welcome. It was an experience. I'll give you that it was definitely an experience.

I will never forget that she wants to.

I appreciate the caveat.

I don't disagree at all. I like I said basically I was okay with everything and even enjoyed some of the scenes up until after the bluegrass festival. After the bluegrass festival, it just.

I could not have a cup of tea. All right, so are we ready to rate. Yeah, because we could probably talk around in circles. I mean, yeah, so darkness, I'm giving it a five. It's horrible and that's saying something from me. Yeah, like the relationship is toxic and abusive, like the orgasm denial, the punishments, the treating her like an animal, like fucking dark and twisted yeah and not in the good way yeah and then spicy fuck, I don't know I mean, I feel like you have to give it a five.

I'm not okay, so we have to talk through this. The spicy right. So, yes, there are more than three sex scenes, but it's obviously very kinky and there's multiple partners. I don't like this.

Well, okay.

Yeah, exactly, I'm glad we're on the same page, Jenn.

I'm just I'm trying to, I'm like, I'm trying to again like for, okay, I don't know if I wanted this to go out publicly up until after the bluegrass festival. I loved it like I could 100 be okay in the majority of the scenes up until that point okay, I don't disagree because I think that's where I think that's where my rating would come from and maybe that's.

The caveat is like after the bluegrass festival, I don't get like yeah I don't care for it at all, but up until that point I was good to go okay no, I can.

I can agree with that, and I think that's part of the problem too is because we're left on a sour note.

Yeah.

That's where I go, because it's the end, like we forget, because it's like a million fucking pages of crap and bullshit when you only needed like 300. Maybe 400.

Oh, 100%? I don't even think. No, I would say, like, cut the politics out. Like I would. Okay if I could rewrite this. I would cut the politics. I would have the scene where she's uncomfortable with the women. He picks up on it and cuts it. No longer shares her, no longer pushes her in that direction. You literally build on the control the relationship the rest of the time. I feel like she could have gone in so many other directions with it after the Bluegrass Festival and where she went just killed the rest of the story for you.

Fan fiction that's what I'm hearing that you and I are gonna write together.

I'm just saying, I mean because I I feel like this concept of having somebody be in complete control, like I think it's so intriguing when it's done consensually, safely, insanely, and I don't think this book qualifies.

Yeah, what was his name? Don't remember. Yeah, I don't either. Is it Thomas or Andrew or Andre Andre?

uh, I think it might have been entree anson anders anders.

Okay, thank you okay. So I mean, yeah, five, not willingly or happily, which I guess is the point of the book oh, that was. That was really funny, or maybe I'm just really tired no, it probably was funny that was really good this whole ratings is not going to be what we want, but I will concede the five stars for spicy spicy uhhuh.

I find it very intriguing that this book's rating on Amazon is a 3.8 and has 247 reviews. I feel like that is a very high rating for.

Such a small number of reviews.

For such a small number of reviews and for the content.

I mean, hold on, what is this book called? As she's Told, I like the other cover better. I think it's pretty.

With her or with the chain.

Well, I like the chain.

But I wish it was green.

I just don't want to look at somebody's butt. Well, on Goodreads it has over 1,800 ratings and less than 160 reviews. Oh, I'm sorry. It says it was first published in 2008, but on Amazon it says it was published in 2016. So I'm wondering if they're? It's only available on kindle. You can't get it as a book, can you? I don't think so well, that's even more interesting. Okay, so 2008. Sorry, I was looking at Amazon when I looked up the year.

Okay, I thought it was older. So what is that? Like 15 years, I can't do math.

I can't do math either.

I love this one review. I feel like it's very long so I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I feel like this sums it up perfectly. The first two words in her review says fascination, repulsion. And that is 100. And she also sums this up and I feel like I wish I could. Okay, I just want to make sure I give credit. So it's K8, number eight. Kendall is the publisher of this review and at the end she wraps it up really well. She says do I recommend this read? Well, that would depend on who is asking my opinion. Are you wanting to read about alternative sexual lifestyles? Do you want something that will test your own beliefs and boundaries? Are you willing to be strangely fascinated, much like a train wreck happening in front of you that you cannot look away from? If you answer yes to these questions, then you may want to try this book. If you say no, then run far, far away and fast. This is not for you.

Yeah.

And I feel like that's pretty much yeah yeah, that sums it up.

Thank you for reading that and sharing, and thank you, k8, for publishing your review on it see, like her review, basically like covers everything I think we would want to say like this part she says this book delves so deep into the boundaries and limits of a willing slave relationship that I cringed outwardly at sometimes my stomach churned as the book moved on. That's when I thought it could not get any worse. I was mistaken. At one point I wanted to cry for the cry for the injustice of it all. Yet the character of Maya wants everything that is dished out to her by her chosen master in Anders. Throughout the read, I kept marveling in the fact that this was basically a consensual relationship, one that Maya chose to have and chose to stay in. I know and that's where I think the mind fuck comes in is like you're like, oh, this is awful, but you're like but she's choosing this again multiple times.

She chooses this yes, oh man and I think that's that's the biggest. So then, oh my god, I know we said we're gonna be like wrapping it up, but but I think this is where my head went and again it kind of goes back to like I can be such a logical, literal person. I'm like, okay, I want to know her backstory. Like how was she raped? Like because he has a relationship with her parents and she continues having a relationship with her parents. Like she seems to have a healthy, normal relationship with her parents. She seems to have a healthy, normal relationship with the outside world. But but like, is it like and like kind of like what we talked about in the very beginning? Like is this genetics? Is this? This did something, did something terrible happen, and this is how she's dealing with it?

Like maybe it's just a chemical imbalance.

I mean, I I think well, okay, I want to say I don't think there is anything wrong with somebody wanting somebody else to be in control of the majority of your life, like giving up that autonomy, like I, that's something that like I could not do it myself. But there are definitely things that I'm like. If someone came up to me and was like, hey, if you do X, y and Z and I make the decisions for you on X, y and Z and this is your reward, I'd be like okay.

Yeah.

I'm good, you know. So, like I don't think I think all of that is totally fine, I think it's think all of that is totally fine, I think it's. I think it's normal for some people. I think we're again it. Just I think this crosses too many lines for there not to be something. I hate using the word wrong because maybe, maybe it is conditioned, you know, I think maybe it goes back to being conditioned like she was on it, like she was good with it for so long and like he was giving her what she wanted. By the time it got cruel, she was already, she had already given so much autonomy up she didn't even know how to get out of it.

At that point, maybe, yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree with what you said like having the control lifted, and I I think part of the problem again is that she put too many kinks in here and that's why the lines are not clear. That's hard to have that boundary, that line, which is why I think she was, she was, conditioned at this point and I think even with his check-ins, his check-ins are not at some point, they're not enough, because her whole goal now is your pleasure. So why am I going to tell you something that you don't want to hear? Because I know you don't want me to leave, which is why I don't think her friend Nikki was asking the right questions for a check-in, and that probably they needed a third party person outside of their relationship. Their core friends and maybe from the community where they met at the party to do a mental safety check, are both of you okay.

Not just her, but him too.

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, that's a really good point. I'm actually a little mad at myself that I didn't consider him.

I mean because can you imagine having that much control and power over somebody that goes to your fucking head? And maybe that's why he had the flip switch. There's nobody checking in on both of them. Yeah, that he's surrounding them with people who are, I don't want to say, intimidated, but if you put all of all their their group, he's the dominant over all of them. There's nobody there to challenge him.

Neither one of his brothers would ever challenge him, and not in a way that is enough to get through to him well, and I think part of why he wasn't more involved in the community is because it's not part of a typical or normal BDSM relationship. Yeah, you know, because I mean that's like yeah.

We could go on and on.

We could, I mean. But, like again, I'm glad I could make you suffer through this because I wanted to talk to someone about this book and like dissect it and like psychoanalyze it so much. But there is literally no one in my life that I would love to read this book, except for you.

I don't know anybody else, except for you two.

Yeah, and you would not have like if you had read this first. I don't think you would have given it to me.

No, I wouldn't have.

Yeah.

No, absolutely not. I don't think you would have given it to me. No, I wouldn't have.

Yeah, no, absolutely not that I made you read it probably because you are the dark you're, you are the dark and twisted one between the two of us yeah, but yeah, no, I would have never.

There is nobody I know. I actually, that's all. I would probably make my sister read it, just so I could talk to somebody about it, but she wouldn't read it. I don't think that she would, so I would be alone in my suffering.

Well, and just so we know that I'm a fair person, I did tell you like if it got to be too much like 100%. I did not want you to continue reading it. Just just throwing that out there for the audience so that they know I'm no Anders.

I mean there is. I honestly there were. I mean it was already rough to begin with, but the fact that you recommended it and the caveats that you gave, there's no way that I was not not going to finish this because this was a discussion.

Yeah.

The discussion made itself Like yeah. There's just no way. So it just took me a long time.

That's okay.

And, yes, a week is a long time for me to read one book.

Okay, Okay. So Darkness 5, Spicy 5, with the caveat that we find it a good spicy up until after the Bluegrass Festival.

And so what's the rating? So I feel like it's going to have to be a split rating. I was going to say it was going to have to be a split rating because obviously I was shocked by this book and so five is you shocked me. But then I have to think, if I give it a five because I do have people who follow my reviews not that I'm like special or anything Do I want them reading this book because I gave it five stars? Even with the split rating, I don't think that I can mark like five on like my Goodreads, because I I agree, you do not want anybody going into this book blind yeah and I can't.

I it's obviously not a four. You know a three is yeah, it's good check it out like, no two is like and then one is no like there's, no, there's. I can't give it any stars.

I think it goes back to like our conversation when we rated Perfect Strangers, like just because it was shocking, and even like a holy shit, you got us moment For me. I think I said the same thing or similar thing in that episode, like you don't get a five just because you managed to like shock the hell out of me. You get a five when it's done well.

This was not done well.

And yeah, and neither was Perfect Strangers. So, like again, I feel like this book had the potential to be a very interesting discussion on, like, how far does a master slave relationship go? Like, how do you push those boundaries master-slave relationship go? How do you push those boundaries? How can you continue developing control over somebody over a long spans of time? I feel like there's so many different ways this could have gone and where she brought it, just ex-nayed everything that came beforehand.

So with that, I would probably say a two.

Really.

A two or a three, maybe a three, I don't know.

Why? Because it's fascinating, yeah, or because of everything leading up to Bluegrass Festival, or because it's fascinating.

I'm going to say because it's fascinating, because I agree with you everything up into the bluegrass. While I don't agree or was on board, I could understand because it fit within the narrative that the author had created. Yeah, and it hadn't branched off into fucking crazy town. And again, little things that we didn't like, which is with any book. There are little things that we don't like throughout the story. So I think a two or a three, but I also say a two or a three because, irregardless of that and we know this, for me I'm's tainted the whole story. Yeah, it it has. So I don't know which one. I would have to, and I'm definitely gonna have to write up a review for this book and within my review, it may determine which way I go. Like I needed I need the star rating to be an intention getter, but I also need the review to be. Like I need you to read this first before you take in consideration what my star rating is yeah, yeah, yeah.

What about you?

I think I'm probably going to shock you. What do you think my rating is going to be?

A four.

I'm actually going to give it a one.

Okay, that's not shocking at all. Oh, okay, never mind, then be a four, I'm actually gonna give it a one.

Okay, that's not shocking at all. Oh okay, never mind, then. I thought it would be the four, the five, the shocking no, I think if I could rate, I keep saying like my quote out of this is gonna be like how many times every time I say, up until after the bluegrass festival, you have to take a shot, we'd all be very drunk. I also wish I could find like quickly find like roughly what chapter or page number, but that's the one where he locks her in the closet right. Uh-huh.

Okay.

Yeah, up until then I would say it's a four Because, like you said, there's parts of it that I don't really like. You know, like some of it pushes, you know what I think would be acceptable, but, like you said, suspending belief and like kind of seeing, like how the nature of their relationship works, okay, I'll give it, you know, four. Up until that point, the entire book. I can't give it more than a one because it's just, it's just too, it's just too much, it's just he, it just pushes. It pushes too many boundaries, it's too, even though she consented to the non-consent, her lack of enjoyment, willingness, whatever to be shared with the women, like I, just I can't get into any of that I was trying to find the festival.

I, I think it's. I think it's chapter 16, folk Fetish. Did you say chapter 15? 16. It could be like 15, 16, because 15 is out of bounds, so literally the halfway point.

Really, is it the halfway point?

Yeah, because there's only 33 chapters. Well, 33 is no end, but I did find the chapter titles interesting.

Yeah, 16. So Well, and I guess, actually now that you oh my gosh, what?

As I was looking for the chapters, I also found the popular highlights, and so one of the quotes is you seem to have forgotten what you're here for. You're not here to wallow in erotic trances. You're not here to float around indulging yourself in subspace. Your purpose is to serve me. Is that clear? You are a thing for my use. That's your function. Doing as I tell you, that's your first and only priority.

Body and brain, sexuality, all of it, all the time for me Got that that's when she loses track of her route back home and she ends up coming late.

Yeah, and forgot to call no. She gets home on time, but she didn't call him no she came home late.

She got home late Because if she had called him and said hey, I'm going to stop. I don't think I mean the punishment wouldn't have been as severe, but because she didn't call him. Yeah, so through Chapter 17 is everything after that is where and yeah, you're right, it's at 57%.

Yeah, everything after that is where. And yeah, you're right, it's at 57. Yeah, I might even go on to say just looking at the the chapter titles that it might be chapter 24, sea of change, where there's a pivot, because that's at the point to where she was like when she met Seven.

Sven.

Whatever, I think this might be the part where she's like he didn't say no. He had more of a tone that said not now.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe.

But I also found this other quote within that chapter because it's a popular highlight my fine piece of property. He kissed her up her throat, the side of her face, my own thing. His voice was a deep, unhurried chant in her ear You're mine to lend, but you'll always come back to me. You won't belong to anyone else but me. A breath sighed from her and her eyelids relaxed. He continued to stroke and croon an owner's lullaby All mine, I'll use you as I please. I'll use you and lend you and take you back. Mine, absolutely not.

Okay, yeah, because in chapter 18, that's when Anders gets into the car accident, and that was one thing that Anders actually did really well is he set up guardrails to, if anything were to happen to him, that because our readers don't know this she has no way.

like, once she comes home, she does, uh, whatever her chores are for that day, and then she has to lock herself in whatever he's decided for that day and there's no way for her to escape out of those binds. And those binds are typically some type of shackle, or she's locked in to a wall or a crate or whatever. So, like anything happens to him, she could literally starve to death, but he put the guardrails in place to make sure that she was taken care of if he were to, you know, anything were to happen to him.

so I think again, that's something that, like, he considered when entering the relationship he did get good on that yeah, so yeah, somewhere around the 60, 65% mark is where things go south.

Yeah, the vibe changes.

Yeah.

Okay, I'm pretty sure we'll come back to this conversation with this book quite a bit. I'm wondering if this book is going to beat the ritual now and how many times you mentioned it no, I mean, I mean, this book fascinated me oh for sure like fascinated me, like.

I was so ready to psychoanalyze this book and I've so enjoyed our discussion on it. The ritual just straight pissed me off. It was boring. It had the same exact sex scenes, and that was the other thing. Like this, this book is erotica, right, so like, but the thing that she did well is, every single time there was any type of sexual scene, it changed. There was never a repeat of anything, and I think and and that that's one thing that, like drives me crazy with other books that have a lot of sex in it is it's like it's the same thing over and over the ritual. Literally it was just 500 pages of the same 20 scenes.

Sorry, Jenn, I love you. I didn't mean to get you worked up, that wasn't my intention.

I do want to read, not the center, whatever. The next one was the third one.

Yeah, the third one.

All right, so you're giving it a two or a three. Probably a two you're giving it a two or a three, probably a two. I'm giving it a one, unless I can rate just the first 60, and then I would give it a three I would say put that in your review, if you write a review not really all right audience.

we do not recommend you read this book unless you want to be weirdly, strangely, disgustingly fascinated with the relationship. Otherwise, stay far away. But if you do read it, let us know where the darkness writes with you and we'll see you next time.

Thank you for joining us on the journey into the shadows of love, where dark romance stories come to life.

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Until then, embrace the darkness and let the stories continue to stir your deepest desires.

This is Mistie and Jenn signing off from Bones of the Storie.

Transcribed by https://podium.page