The advice your cousin got when she applied five years ago might not apply to you anymore.

Laurel Miller is an assistant professor at Point Loma Nazarene University, and she's watched this process shift. Clinical hour expectations have moved. More programs are taking applicants straight out of undergrad than they used to. What was true in 2015 isn't automatically true now.

What hasn't changed is what makes someone stand out: professionalism, real life experience, and resilience. She can tell in an interview who's been through something and who hasn't, and she's honest about why that matters in this job.

We also spend time on choosing programs. Check accreditation status - provisional versus continuing - and understand what that means. And don't write off newer programs. They often have smaller cohorts, faculty who are extremely invested, and less competition for a seat.

What we cover:

• How clinical hour expectations have changed over time
• Applying straight from undergrad versus taking time
• Professionalism and resilience as admissions criteria
• Reading a program's accreditation status
• What newer programs can offer that established ones can't
• What faculty notice about applicants that applicants don't realize

Resources:

PA Program Map: https://www.thepaplatform.com/pa-platform-map

Free PA School Application Timeline: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/free-application-timeline

PA School Interview Guide: https://www.thepaplatform.com/physician-assistant-school-interview-guide

Pre-PA Counseling: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/pre-pa-counseling

Mentioned in this episode:

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We always love getting to hear from faculty and that's what I have for you today.

We're going to hear from Laurel Miller,.

An assistant professor at Point Loma Nazarene University and she has great insights into everything you need to know for this application process.

Welcome to the Pre PA Club Podcast.

If you want to learn how to become a physician assistant, you're in the right place.

I'm your host, Savannah Perry.

Let's get to it.

I want to tell you about this.

Week's sponsor of the podcast, Picmonic.

If you are just starting PA school or maybe you even have a whole semester under your belt at this point and you're still trying to figure out what the best way to study is for you and what resources to use, highly recommend looking into Picmonic.

This is a great resource because it combines a lot of different learning styles.

You have these quick two minute videos where you're being told a story, you're listening, you're watching, you're learning about these characters to help you understand and remember all of the facts that you're learning during PA school.

It's a lot and we know that.

So it's really helpful to reinforce what you're learning and then you can track your progress by doing tons of different review multiple choice quizzes to make sure that information is sticking.

I think that's one of the biggest things that helps you be successful in PA school is making sure that you not only know the information, but that you can apply it.

By repeating this information, you'll really feel like you are reviewing the appropriate info at the right time and you can choose the subjects you want to learn about.

You can review things throughout your time during PA school.

So the question banks are exactly what you're going to need and they're going to test the knowledge in the same way that you're going to need to.

Know it for boards.

So it covers everything that you'll be tested on and is a great resource to use throughout PA school.

We have some blog posts about Picmonic and you can check out their videos.

We'll put information in the description on how to sign up or at least look into it and see if it's a good fit for you.

Use the code the PA platform for 20% off at checkout.

Welcome to the Prepa Club Podcast.

Thank you so much for tuning in and listening.

I'm Savannah Perry, your host and resident Dermatology PA Pre PA coach, whatever you want to call me, you may hear my sidekick with me today.

My little seven week Old sidekick helping me out with podcast record I just had my second baby so I'm on maternity leave right now, going back to work later in a month or so.

So we're getting some quality time in.

And if you follow me on social media, sometimes I share some little sneak peeks of of him just being cute.

And being a baby.

But today's episode will be so good.

We're going to hear from Laurel Miller.

She's a PA who works at Point Loma Nazarene University as an assistant professor and she has worked in multiple different areas and specialties as a PA and then moving into academics.

So we just talk about that, talk about what programs are looking for, what she sees students struggling with.

And you know, that insider look into PA schools I think is what we all want to hear about to make sure you're on track and that you can do as much as possible to make yourself, you know, what schools are looking for and to see if a school is a good fit and learn about how to do that.

So that's our goal.

We love having faculty on our podcast to share with you guys.

So this is a really great interview and episode that I think you will enjoy.

We'll get into that in just a couple seconds.

I wanted to update you on some things coming up.

So we It's August right now.

If you're listening in real time, we are right in the middle of interview season.

It is definitely picking up.

So we are happy to help with mock interviews.

We have the PA School Interview Guide and just don't forget you can use that code Future PA for a discount on any of our services on the PA platform.com if you ever are trying to schedule an interview and don't see a time that works for you, please send us an email and our coaches are happy to accommodate.

We'll try to make it work for you.

We know sometimes these invites can come a little last minute and we don't want you to miss out on practice because of that.

We are doing a webinar that is coming up on August 24th.

It'll be at 8pm That's a Thursday.

Then this webinar I'm so excited for it is going to be an faq.

But we are revealing something we've been working on very hard for a while now that is just like revolutionary and will make your life so much easier.

I'm so excited.

I use it a lot now and then you're going to get to use it.

Ah, it's going to be so cool.

So all Right.

Hey, like it's, I can't, I can't talk about more.

I'll reveal it.

And I'm terrible at keeping secrets.

So anyway, August 24th, be there.

And then if you follow along on social media, we will be posting about it as well.

And yeah, it's going to be good.

So that's going to be also just general faq, so answering questions, those can get a little crazy if you've been to one before, but would love to have you and try to get your questions answered and shed some light on this crazy process.

We also have mapcon coming up.

I've mentioned that, that I'm speaking at in October in Baltimore.

If you're going back to school to your pre PA clubs, we would love, you know, like if a group of you came.

We're planning some meetups, some prepa meetups.

For Friday and Saturday.

If you want more info on that, just email me and we'll add you to the list to make sure that you know all the details when it's time for that and it's gonna be a good time.

All right, we'll jump into our interview and as always, feel free to reach out, send me an email.

Reach out on social media.

I would love to hear from you, especially if you're listening to the podcast.

And I will see you guys next week.

Yeah.

So my name is Laurel Miller.

I'm currently a professor at Point Loma Nazarene University.

Our first PA school in San Diego.

Finally got PA education down here and we'll be graduating our first class this year.

So I'm learning a lot in that respect, but I am definitely a clinician learning to be an academic person.

So my love is being a clinician.

I graduated from USC so State in California and have always worked in emergency medicine and also at the same time worked in family practice.

So mostly specializing in women's health within family practice.

So it's been great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I definitely want to hear more about how you got into academics, but going back, what kind of brought you to the PA profession, how did you find out about it?

What took you on that path?

Yeah.

In undergrad?

Well, I'm sure many people listening are in this same space, but trying to find those spaces to volunteer and to get into an area of medicine.

I was doing some research in the emergency room in Fresno where I was doing my undergrad and met a pa.

So it was always pre med going towards medicine, but that was kind of this Big global picture.

I didn't quite know where within medicine I was going.

So I met a pa.

He was great.

I didn't realize what a PA was.

I had never met a physician assistant before.

So I asked him a lot of questions and he was really helpful.

He ended up writing one of my recommendation letters because I stuck really close to him with all the shifts I kept doing in the er.

So I was one of those students where any opportunity I took it.

So hey, we.

I mean, we need someone helping on Friday night.

Great, I'll be there.

Can I come early?

Is it just, you know, all of those experiences and being around people that are in medicine help shape what you want to do and we're all different and so we find that by talking to different people.

So he was the first PA and then I met several others and also had a lot of physician friends and so kept kind of going back and forth and filled out like I'm sure many people do too.

It's like, which way is the best way?

I don't know if there is a best way.

It's just the way that you choose and then you make that you own that decision and keep going forward.

So I filled out a DO application and PA and then never submitted the DO for whatever reason.

You know, just a lot of self reflection and thinking and I'm really happy what I chose.

Nice.

Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's common, that back and forth.

And then I think you kind of explained it like you have the.

I think it's a common prepa mentality of like, I want to do it all and like, yes, I'll be there.

And you know, I think PAs tend to be like go getters, which I appreciate.

But so when it came time to, you know, you decided on PA and moved towards the profession.

How has the application process changed since you think you applied versus now?

Yeah, I can remember applying and it wasn't.

People had to have a really high number of hours, clinical hours, and so those were hard to find in a space of that in between of graduating, getting your bachelor's, not yet, having a lot of experience to get a great clinical job, but then wanting to be a pa. Where do you get those hours?

So that was.

The hours are really high.

I feel like those have come down a little bit just to accommodate the large amount of people coming straight out of school.

There's a little bit more of an attitude when I applied of, you know, you need to.

We aren't taking people straight out of undergrad.

Go and Go and get some experience.

Go get your feet wet.

So we definitely, I know at our school have, have accepted coming out of undergrad.

Most people, though, still have a few years.

I think just as a personal decision to want to work in some area of medicine before kind of solidifying what they want to do.

Another huge change is definitely all the online changes.

So the, the interview process is definitely different.

I remember, you know, it's a lot to go somewhere physically to interview for every school that, that you are applying to.

So I think that's a good change because it allows a lot more people to, to look at multiple schools and not have to choose where do I want to put my money to to get to a school.

Are you also doing virtual?

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I think, I think most of the.

I'm on the east coast.

I think a lot of the schools around me are still doing virtual also.

But it actually gives a lot more flexibility to everybody.

Yeah.

One of my colleagues is just finished a study on whether virtual interviews are effective, whether students like them, whether faculty like them.

And kind of overall, the overarching was, yes, let's keep the virtual interviews.

There's ways to find out what you need to about an applicant.

The applicants can still feel connected to a school and if they're, if they really like that school, then there's going to be options of coming and visiting in person and figuring out post interview.

So, yeah, good fit.

Yeah.

And I think there's a comfort level too.

So one of my medical assistants recently had an interview that was virtual.

And it was funny though, because she was like, I don't want to do it at home.

I'll be too comfy.

I gotta like, came to the office and did it in the physician's office because she was just like, I can't do it at my house.

So I thought that was funny.

She was like, it's just too, like, that's too weird.

That makes sense.

That makes sense.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

So when you got into.

I know you said you're like first and foremost a clinician.

Did you see yourself getting into academics or was that something that just kind of evolved?

Yeah, I think leadership was always a space I wanted and kind of gravitated towards whether it was in a clinical scenario being, you know, one of the lead pas or being in meetings with people making decisions.

But from an early Start, I started having student shadows and you know, that's an area schools are always looking for.

You know, it's easy to graduate and then want to go work and forget that there's lots of other people behind you needing training and needing to see especially now what, you know, real learning, hands on.

So I started having students and love teaching from a clinical side in whatever area I was working in.

And we didn't have a program in San Diego.

So a colleague of mine said, you know, let's.

Would you be interested in starting even the conversation with a local university to help them get a program?

It's like, yes.

Not seeing like, you know, the trajectory wasn't let's help them and then I can get hired.

But so I started learning a lot about academics, the other side of academics.

Not the just teaching diagnostics and hands on skills, but all of the other development of curriculum, the critical learning, the critical reasoning that happens.

How do you, how do you make an effective clinician teaching wise?

And there's a lot that goes into it and just the, all the policies behind academics and all the administration side of what happens behind the classroom learning.

And that was really interesting.

So slowly, once the program was accepted and we did start interviewing for positions, we hired an incredible director who thankfully said, hey, I want, I want you to stay on.

I will teach you everything I know, which was such a gift.

And.

That's how I ended up in it.

And that's also.

You can translate into, you know, in a medical scenario too.

Sometimes hiring a new grad is great because you can train them exactly how, how you want them to work in that environment.

And that's kind of how it worked here too.

It was like, let's, let's know home grow a team that we all work together and we're all on the same page.

It's been a really great thing developing in the program.

So.

And I still worked clinically a little bit and one of my favorite things now is to pick up shifts where my students are working and see the product of what we've been teaching.

And, and it's been really fun seeing them in a clinician role.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, we, I think one of the biggest compliments I got as a PA after I graduated was I had three different faculty members refer patients to me and I was like, this is like, this is very full circle.

Like clearly, you know, they trust me and think we both did a good job.

So that was really cool.

Whenever, whenever.

That, that is, yeah, it's great.

Yeah.

Because looking at them.

I'm like, these are my future colleagues.

And yeah, I want to train people that I trust and would refer to.

And so that's great.

How fun.

Yeah, it was really cool.

So, thinking about.

So I think it's interesting for prepa students because that's a lot of who I'm talking to most of the time who maybe don't understand or see everything that goes into creating a PA program and understand how extreme, extensive and complex that process is.

And I think gay schools are.

So there's just so, so many check marks that have to happen before a program can kind of take off.

What, like when, when a student is looking at maybe a newer program, someone that's provisional or in their first couple years, what, what kind of things should they be looking for or asking?

Should they have any reservations about that program or are there benefits to that?

Yeah, yeah, we have a lot of questions about this because currently we're provisional accreditation.

So what that means is you have to go through five years as a program before you can be fully accredited.

So there wasn't anything wrong that happened.

It's just kind of the standard.

You're provisionally accredited.

It means you passed the first part of accreditation, which is great.

If you, if a program doesn't pass the first accreditation application, no one will be able to apply to them.

Sometimes you have to look for.

If a program is under probation, it, it means some, you know, there was something on their accreditation that is being looked at closely.

Not all of those are bad.

Sometimes it's, you know, having different clinical sites.

And so we're lucky to have a board that looks really carefully at every program to make sure everything is in line.

You know, do you have the appropriate sites?

Are students learning under people that are trustworthy?

What are you teaching everything under our standards?

Are you covering every, you know, organ system?

How are you assessing students?

So it's very.

We could have an hour long conversation about accreditation, but currently we're under our second, second accreditation application.

So in the first five years, a program will.

Will go through three different applications.

So those.

That a new program is under a lot of.

Of a microscopic look.

So the second application looks at.

Okay, you said you were going to do this.

How are you doing it?

What.

How are students performing?

How are you assessing them so students can feel, I'm sure, very micromanaged or like, why are we doing another survey?

Why are we being tested on this?

Why?

This seems like busy work.

This seems like, you know, why do I have to learn this in the program?

But Everything most PA programs do, I know we do, comes from standards that are put out that say you must teach these things and you must assess them.

So that assessing is a little bit left up to the individual university and program, but it comes from somewhere that we're being told to do these things.

Yeah.

And the standards change this year.

So a lot of programs that have been established for years and years are having to revamp their program and look at their curriculum again, which is challenging for something that.

It's like, we've done this for 15 years.

How are we going to include this and this and diversity and all the equity stuff that's coming in.

New standards about bedside manner and cultural competency and humility, all of those things.

Professionalism.

So there's a lot of new stuff that's coming out that all programs are being held to, not just new programs.

But that's a big question for applicants.

Is, is it safe to apply to a program that is provisional accredited and a brand new program that hasn't received provisional accreditation?

That is.

That's a little risky.

So look at their leadership.

Where does their leadership come from?

Where does the medical or the program director, what's their history?

Have they opened programs before that were successful?

Where does the other faculty come from?

And usually people with experience, they know what to do in opening another program.

But once the school is provisionally accredited, anybody can go on probation.

But it's more of a likelihood they're on the right track.

They've passed through the first iron gates.

And it's not much of a word, as much of a worry in that.

Yeah.

When I've heard from students who have gone to provisional programs, some of them really like it because.

Because they feel like they're kind of part of that foundation and able to kind of build that program and give feedback.

And maybe their feedback is a little bit more well received than a very established program that has been doing things the same way for a long time.

So I've heard.

I've heard a lot of students really enjoy going to.

To newer programs and have had great experiences.

And I try to remind students too.

I went to a very established program that had been around since I think the 70s, and they still change things every year.

Like, and they're just trying to get better and keep up with the standards and make sure that everything is the best it can be for the students.

And sometimes that's changing the schedule or changing the way things are taught or organized.

And so we were, you know, very flexible throughout PA school with, with a Lot of that.

So thinking about people who are wanting to go to PA school, what do you feel like makes a PA school applicant stand out either in the application process or interviews?

What kind of gives you an idea of someone who would be successful in PA school?

Yeah, there's a. I mean, that's a.

It's a big question, but I think it kind of boils down to we've seen hundreds of applicants now in the interview side of things, thousands in the.

In the paper side of things, but to actually meet students.

And I think the thing that stands out the most is professionalism.

So it's a huge thing.

As you know, working, working clinically.

Sometimes your, your reputation and your professionalism supersedes your clinical ability, which is crazy.

But there are people that will not get a referral, that are so intelligent, but based on.

On how they present themselves.

So show up to an interview or any, anything that you're corresponding with a school with a high, the highest level of professionalism you can.

I don't think that you can be too professional, too dressed well, you know, all of too polite on an email, say thank you.

Make sure to address people the right way in an email.

Not one where, you know, different things that, like, that will make you stand out a little bit.

Oh, this person's really professional and polite.

And then another thing that stands out is just someone that has a little bit of life experience and some grit behind them of why they're choosing what they're doing.

And you know, they can make it through a really hard program.

And that doesn't have to mean that people have gone through a horrible situation in life.

But I think anyone, everyone's situation will be different.

It's how you spin it.

So if you can talk about how your biochem class was really hard and how you got through it, great.

If you can talk about your mom who struggled with cancer, okay, that's your story.

But how.

How has it made you stronger?

And then how have you.

Have you grown from it and now left behind it?

Not still struggling with it?

It's just showing some grit in, in any area.

Because PA school is hard, you know, so there's a.

A lot of information at once and for a long period of time, having to do things in front of cameras and in front of people and then go on and do them in a clinical year on real people, It's a lot.

So you know what can make you resilient during that time and how can you communicate that to an admissions team in first in your writing and then if you get an interview.

So that's great advice and I love your point on professionalism.

I'd like to echo that for anyone shadowing or just emailing pas.

Yeah, we've.

I've had some interesting emails come through.

We've had some interesting shadowing experiences.

Um, at my old.

My old office, we had someone show up in jean shorts to shadow the doctor was like, I'm so sorry.

Like, you gotta go.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like, you know, just things like that.

So, yeah, it's.

It's definitely.

And you wouldn't think it happens, but it happens.

It does.

It does.

Yeah, it does.

People have shown up in our office in things that I'm like.

And I think I. I've gotten better at saying, like, you know, this.

What you're wearing is inappropriate.

I care about you as in your future of your professional life.

You can never show up in something like that again.

It's like, oh, my goodness, I didn't know.

So correct your.

Correct your friends and your colleagues.

But, yeah, definitely professionalism.

Yeah, it's something we keep talking about.

So, yeah.

So, thinking about PA school, was there any specific area that you struggled with in PA school or any areas that you see students struggling the most?

I think the way students study changes in PA school, and we tell them that in the beginning.

Right.

And it's almost like you have to go through it to go, oh, you're right.

I need to change the way I study.

Traditionally, in undergrad or even other master's programs, you memorize all the material.

It's like, I'll take my PowerPoint, I'll rewrite it, and then I'll rewrite it again, and then I'll say it, and I need to learn it for the test, and then it's gone, and then I move on.

But in PA school, it's like, no.

Every single thing you learn builds on itself.

And then we refer back to it, and you have another patient, another case that had something from that previous test that you just learned.

You need to keep it.

That's.

How do you learn it for using in your career is different.

So it's.

There's no one book that's going to tell students everything.

They're all on the search for it, but it doesn't exist.

You know, what's that one book that will tell me everything?

Nope, there's not.

You personally have to research everything that's on those objectives and then come back and you can write your clipnotes or you can use the clipnote version of a book, but if you don't understand what they're saying in a list type of format of each disorder, it doesn't matter.

And you know, clinically you want to be able to describe why you're ordering a test or what that result means from a pathophysiology mindset.

So yeah, the study is definitely different in PA school.

And I learned that I remember creating a group and, and, and relying on my like a close group of friends to get work done because I knew I couldn't handle all of it myself.

And so it's learning to work as a team even as a PA student before you're working as a team, as a PA of, of holding each other accountable and doing work together and researching things together.

And yeah, I didn't.

A lot of students are really nervous about something we call Osce's.

So is that post traumatic for you to hear that word?

Oh yeah.

I like, see I loved the practice stuff.

Like I, I feel like that made everything more real.

Like it for me like solidified it a little.

I mean it was stressful but I, I liked the hands on more than the.

In the books.

Yes.

Yes.

And you're right, there's, there's that student that's like, let me do it right.

Yes.

And then there's the.

I need more information.

I will never know it all.

Yeah.

And that's a hard thing for students too is we have lots.

Every PA student is a type A high achieving want to do well.

No one comes into PA school saying, you know, I'll just squeak by.

So everyone wants to know more about every disorder they learn about.

There's just not enough time.

That's where you'll, when you get a job someday, you can spend your whole career researching things and so realizing like I, I'm going to learn as much as I can and then I'm going to move on.

But Oskies.

Yeah.

Being being filmed I think is, is hard for a lot of people.

I don't want to watch myself, I don't want to hear myself.

You know, and, and having to interact with a patient and be graded is really challenging.

But they do so well and grow so much.

You know, watching from the beginning to the end, it's really fun to see that, that transition.

Yeah.

And it's, it's kind of the question of I get a lot is like I don't feel ready for clinicals, I don't feel ready for rotations.

Is that normal?

And I'm like 100%.

You will never feel ready.

Learning from a Book like, you just got to go do it.

And then you'll realize you know more than you think you know, and you'll learn so much.

Like, so much.

Yeah, so much so.

And these students you're talking to are mostly pre pa, right?

So, yeah.

And then it'll be like, the pre PA students who have gotten into school, and then now they're gonna like, okay, well, you still have to help me.

I'm freaking out.

What do I do?

And so they'll.

They'll definitely with.

With questions about, you know, what to study and how to.

How to feel prepared.

I get a lot of the ones of, you know, that imposter syndrome of I, you know, don't feel like I can do it or, you know, I'm trying so hard.

I feel like I'm not getting things and just a lot of reassurance that that is completely normal.

And I feel like the majority of PA students go through that.

And I saw it with myself, and I saw it with my class, and I've seen it with other classes, like, go and help with my program, where you have that transition period, like you were saying, like, figuring out how you're going to study, figuring out who your people are.

It's so different than anything else.

It's so different than undergrad.

It's.

It's just not.

You can't prepare someone.

I can't tell you what to expect.

You got to get in it and then realize those things for yourself and figure out how to navigate it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I know for our.

For me, like, I had an advisor, one of our faculty members, who was just so helpful for me.

And that's what I tell people.

Like, use your faculty.

Use your advisors.

Like they are there for you.

Because I would go to her whenever I was kind of in the trenches and feeling like I, you know, wasn't going to be able to climb out of it to get her.

Use her experience and use her insights and that mentor person.

And it was so helpful, and I think so.

Like, that's one thing that I think is also hard.

Like, when you look at program websites, all this stuff starts running together.

Like, it all.

They all start to look the same.

Like, the missions kind of sound the same.

The are kind of the same.

Like, what do you.

Is there anything that you feel like students just love about your program or that stands out that people may not necessarily get from looking at the website or would want to know about?

Yeah, I do agree with you.

I think a lot of them sound the same, and it's easy to say that we care about underserved and giving back and all these things that all of us are strive to do.

So we, we took it a step further at Point Loma and said, let's put it in our curriculum.

So it's not an option of.

We know you come in caring about all these things and you have volunteer hours.

We're going to keep doing that throughout PA school too.

And so there's mandatory volunteer, which is interesting.

Mandatory volunteer, but having them go out and experience the community in, in ways that they haven't yet maybe make them uncomfortable.

Because once you get into the emergency room working after you graduate, it can be quite a shock of wait, I did not sign up to take care of X, Y, Z, all of this when, when we could do a better job.

I think of training clinicians to have some empathy and compassion while in school.

So we do things.

We have a whole three weeks.

We call it a service month in the didactic year where students are paired one on one with an organization in San Diego to, to work with all sorts of populations.

Refugee immigrants, sex trafficking, tortured victims.

Like, we have somebody that works with a lawyer.

Lots of unsheltered populations.

We're lucky in San Diego to work.

We're a border town, so we're borderlands and we have access to a lot of disparities.

And so not only learning from a textbook, we're.

We're taking it a step further and going, okay, now you've learned about this.

Go out and experience what the, you know, Somali refugees are experiencing.

Go out and experience what, what it looks like to live unsheltered and how hard it is to take medicine that is refrigerated.

Where do you put it?

Working on street teams?

You know, street medicine has become a reality here.

It's become a paid job.

And working on some of those teams going, what do I do with all these challenges that I learned this is how you treat this.

And it's not working in the field.

So I really, really like that about our program.

Our program director was amazing at supporting the vision that we all had to keep students in a service arena.

And the students have really responded well, too.

It's been fun to see them learn in sometimes areas where they're like, why are you putting me here?

And then going back to volunteer in these places of domestic violence and all of this, working with our city and state attorneys on issues.

And some of them got to do some really cool projects with our elected officials.

And that helps pa's world get out into Our community.

What's a pa?

Who are you?

Why are you helping?

That's been really fun.

And clinical opportunities have come out of that also.

So we.

I really value that at Point Loma.

And then students have really liked the small class size too, which I know is not unique, just our program, but they've, they've liked the family feel of Point Loma especially.

So we're also.

One other thing that is a little different than what I learned is we're a small symptom based program.

So you come in and so we teach from patient has a cough.

Instead of going.

Instead of the objectives reading.

You know, all the things with pulmonary, it's like, oh, this.

The patient comes in with wheezing.

What could these be?

Patient comes into the cough.

What could this be?

Kind of mirroring clinical, like patient comes in with whatever.

What's your differential?

It's not all.

In neurology, if it's dizziness, it can be lots of things.

So yeah, that's been great.

We've had great feedback.

Is that the same as problem based learning or is that a little different?

It is problem based learning is more of like in groups.

And we do have case based, problem based learning too, a little bit separate from our lectures.

So our, our lectures and.

And faculty guided instruction is more symptom based.

And then we have case based learning too, where they're working through an actual patient.

Yeah.

Interesting that.

I feel like that would encourage way more critical thinking than what we call Death by PowerPoint.

Where.

Yeah, you're sitting there, it's like, this is bronchitis.

Here's the, the signs and symptoms.

This is the diagnostic test.

This is the treatment.

Right?

Okay.

Yes, let's move on.

Yes,.

A lot of that.

Bit of problem based.

And that's awesome.

Well, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing in your time and I think hearing kind of some of those insights about the program and especially the background of academics, I think is really helpful to helping students kind of understand what all goes into a PA program that they may not.

May not really know about when they're looking at all of these different options.

So I think this is super helpful to share and.

Oh yeah, it's recording my sign.

But yeah.

And if we can ever, you know, help get the word out about your program, I'm sure you get plenty of applications.

But if y' all are doing anything, trying to get info sessions or whatever, like, please let me know.

Yeah, share.

A lot of our, A lot of our students are California.

That's great.

I mean, the big I'm, I'm blown.

Away by the, the, the caliber of applicants we get.

They're amazing.

And so all of you listening, I mean, I didn't do this before.

Ph.

So it's great for people to be investing in yourself, to get more help, to become more professional, to, to make your application look great.

You can't go wrong getting a coach and somebody to walk alongside a journey that feels overwhelming at times.

So.

And you said something earlier too, about current students too, and their confidence level and the imposter syndrome.

And that also happens.

We have lots of those.

But I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing either.

There's a balance of, like, that confidence.

And if you're overconfident, I think we're going to miss things and you're going to have a wake up call that might involve patient safety in the future or, you know, of course, if you're not confident enough, we need to boost you up.

But there is that weird in between of feeling like I know my limits, but I'm also very confident in what I know.

And that comes when you graduate and start working too.

I had one of my first bosses told me, watch out because you're really confident right now.

You want to do everything.

You want to run this and that and take all the difficult patients and you feel like you know a lot and you do, but you don't have the experience yet.

And all of a sudden, around five to seven years of being a pa, you realize how much you don't know, which is ironic because then all of a sudden you have years under you.

He's like, it's coming.

And it does, it comes and you go, oh, my gosh, there's so much to learn.

I have limitations.

I've seen bad outcomes.

I've had hard things happen.

So it's okay to feel in an in between space.

Sometimes that discomfort pushes you into a good space.

Yeah, we talk about that a lot, like knowing what you don't know.

But I will still bring my collaborating physician in and just, you know, get her her, you know, reassurance that I'm on the right track.

Even if it's something I feel good about just to provide better patient care.

I mean, if I have any inkling of a question, it's not going to hurt anything.

To do that, so.

And sometimes we also just like to put our heads together on interesting cases.

But, yeah, I think.

I think that's the.

The kind of humbling thing about medicine is realizing that you will never know everything ever.

Like, there's always something new, and after you've been in it a while, to seeing how medicine changes and having to keep up with it, like, there's always something new going on.

So it's true.

Yeah, but it's fun.

Keep it fun.

Keeps it.

It is.

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much.

And we'll put all the information about Point Loma in the description of the episode, too, so everybody can.

Can find out more about the program.

And that's great at what you guys are doing.

That's great.

We'd love to have anyone interested check us out.

No, I'm.

I'm sure you'll have plenty of people kind of looking.

Looking into it and.

Yeah, looking to.

I think the more hearing directly from the programs is something a lot of students just feel like they don't.

They don't know how to reach out or they don't.

They just don't do it because they are scared.

I'm like, don't be scared.

Just do it.

But they're kind of scared.

So I'm like, the more we can just share about different programs and kind of help people find the best fit, we'll try to get.

Get the word out.

That's great.

Well, thank you for everything you do and for having me, and thank you.

For agreeing to give up some of your time.

And I'll send you the links and everything once.

Once we post.

Okay, Sounds great.

Have a good rest of your week.

Thank you.

All right, you too, Savannah.

Thanks.

Bye.