Shownotes
If you tend to procrastinate on important but not urgent tasks (or those that your brain finds tedious), you are not alone. Some tasks, like tax preparation and folding laundry, are nearly universal in triggering resistance, so it’s time to embrace strategies that allow us to get sh*t done, without shame.
The popularity of body-doubling (also called virtual co-working) is partially due to the growth of remote work, but mostly due to the need for non-judgmental accountability.
After sampling several body doubling platforms, I decided to partner with Focused Space, an innovative company that combines body doubling with mindfulness practices and a virtual community.
In this episode of ADHD-ish, I am joined by Focused Space’s Becca Groner. With a background in improv comedy and a deep understanding of ADHD tendencies, she brings a human-centered approach to productivity and teamwork, which you will experience in our conversation.
By emphasizing community, flexible accountability, and personal well-being, platforms like Focused Space are paving the way for a more connected and productive future for individuals and teams.
Fun Fact: Several members of the Focused Space community were able to finish writing books during their virtual coworking sessions. 📚✨
Be sure to listen until the end for a special partnership announcement offering listeners a free month of Focused Space, and valuable resources like the Procrastination Playbook.
So grab your headphones, and let's get started on creating a more joyful, connected, and productive work environment.
Mentioned by our guest:
Give body-doubling + community a try: Use this special ADHD-ish/Focused Space partnership offer: Get one month free + 25% discount after that! https://bit.ly/3X2DvOJ
Transcripts
H: When we say virtual co-working or body doubling, there's probably many other terms. Those are the 2 I'm most familiar with. What we are talking about is getting work done with accountability. What's your definition for body doubling?
G: Yeah. Diann, I think that's very well said. I would say for me personally, body doubling, I always say, like, what if you're doing your laundry and you really don't wanna do it, and you just call a friend? It makes it go by faster, and you're able to accomplish it and feel better about it so body doubling is like that. You can either be on the phone, you could be on video, or you could be at a co-working space in person. And having that feeling of being around other people, maybe are also working on something or doing something like a chore, they are gonna help you to get that thing done faster. Even if they don't know they're helping you get that thing done, you're all helping each other, stay accountable and feel better about, being productive.
H: It's so funny that you mentioned laundry because it almost feels like laundry is like this universal thing that people procrastinate on, they resist. Some people flat out avoid. They will be turning their underwear inside out and reusing it like, they just don't wanna go there. And I know there's probably, like, a lot of feeling of, like, I must be the only weirdo who feels that way. But that was actually the very first thing when the very first body doubling session I ever went to. And there were a number of different people there. It was we were all in our little Zoom screens. I swear to God, probably a third of the people were doing their laundry.
G: I believe that.
H: A laundry party, you know? So what are some of the other things that you find that people are it's just not gonna get done if it isn't done this way?
G: Oh my gosh. Well, taxes is huge. And I should mention, I'm a host for Focused Space, which is a body doubling platform, digital co working space. You can use lots of ways to describe it and we work with teams. We also work with individuals to get stuff done and help them, to feel more productive during the day. And so some folks that I've worked with on there finished books, which is so cool.
H: Reading or writing?
G: Writing. We've had, I think, at least 4 people finish their book using body doubling in our community. And a few of them have actually mentioned Focused Space in the foreword of their book saying I couldn't get this done without you guys and without this community. So it's been really cool to be a part of that. I have not started writing a book yet, but I feel like maybe I could. I could do anything because I have this power of community and accountability, and, I have the time and space set aside with other folks who might be cheering me on or working on their own things that are similar and or totally different. Maybe I'm writing a book, you're doing laundry. Equally satisfying to get to do that with someone else rather than feeling alone and doing that on an island where it might not get done in the same amount of time.
H: Getting done in the same amount of time, I think that's a really crucial point because the way I've been framing it is it's probably not gonna get done at all. But maybe it will get done eventually, but it'll get done with just a fuck ton of, like, self recrimination and shame and just negative self talk and all the angstiness that just makes the thing, whatever it is, just so heavy and so daunting. But getting it done more quickly, not only this satisfaction of just crossing it off your list, but, like, making it feel lighter and easier and friendlier and, dare I say, even a little bit fun, if it's something that you really hate doing simply because you take the shame out of it. And you're partnering with other people who also need the same thing. Like, you're not the only one by a long shot.
G: Exactly and I love that you said, like, that it could be more fun and enjoyable, like laundry. It's never gonna be fun. But if I'm with some other people, it might be a little bit more fun and joyful and that's what I try to bring into the sessions. What I lead with Focused Space is, like, how can I cheer people on and make them feel empowered and excited for that task or goal that they've been dreading or that chapter that they've been putting off of their book? And we just wrote, me and one of the other hosts at Focused Space, we worked on a Procrastination Playbook or resource so that we could support some of the common things that we are hearing and that we ourselves were feeling.
Like, I just don't wanna do this thing. I just can't hold myself accountable. So in those moments where maybe you can't find a body double or join community session with whatever platform you might be using for body doubling, finding ways to just, like, get that first step and work towards your goal and feel accomplished in a small way versus tackling something big, which can feel really daunting and scary on its own.
H: It's probably one of the number one reasons why people don't start something because they make it too big right? Like, I have ADHD, I work with people that have ADHD. You consider yourself ADHD-ish. You have a sister that has ADHD. At least half of the clients and members on Focused Space, which I am a partner with, also have ADHD. But, like, you don't have to have ADHD to need accountability. You also don't have to have some big, like, shameful, scary, daunting thing. It's just normalizing the fact that everybody has to do stuff they don't enjoy, like all of us.
For some people, it's harder. But nobody enjoys all of their daily tasks. Nobody enjoys all of the things they need to do in their job, in their business, in their life, in their relationships. Nobody does and I think other than shame and other than feeling I should be able to do this, what else do you think stops people from taking advantage of a community like Focused Space or any of the other similar apps that offer body doubling or virtual coworking? What stops people from just saying, you know what? I need this, and this makes sense, and I'm gonna do it.
G: Yeah. I think the overwhelm of work on its own. I know I come from a product management background. So I was in so many meetings all day, meeting with all sorts of teams and teammates. And there's you just get overwhelmed by how much time you're spending already looking at a screen Diann in these meetings and talking to people. And maybe I'm not an introvert, but I have a lot of colleagues who've been introverts. And it can be really overwhelming, again, to be on meetings when you just wanna kind of close off, heads down, get your work done.
And so I think that can lead people to not really want to engage with body doubling or digital co-working or even in person co working because they're like, I am too introverted or I'm too overwhelmed by my day already. What I think is really cool about Focused Space is we are all about introverts. We a lot of our members will join with video off. They might not chime in on our chat while we're doing our co-working sessions. But they're still getting that accountability and community without needing to be super involved and super, you know, alive and awake during a community session. And then there are some extroverts who are chiming in and saying, I worked on this or I got this done or nice job, Diann.
I see that you're finishing up your goal. And then the host, in general, is talking you through the session and starting with the meditation and then getting into, the actual silent co-working. So I think that would probably be a barrier to entry if you're an introvert or if you're already feeling overwhelmed by your workday. And one thing we're starting to do is work with teams because we see that maybe a whole team might need to, have that extra push, and not necessarily to, like, be more productive, but just to feel more connected maybe and feel like their workday is not just a total slog of this meeting, then this meeting, then this project, then that goal.
But being able to be a part of something a little bit larger, that's not just your workday as you know it of logging on to Zooms and logging on to Slack and feeling like it's a little bit more joyful, it's a little bit more of a community than what you're used to and what we know from working from home throughout the pandemic or even before then. I think what me and my sessions and what some of our other their hosts at Focused Space and even our competitors, what we're all trying to do is make work feel a little bit better, whether you're working for yourself or you're working on a team.
H: You've just said so many things. I hope I don't forget all of them in my response and reflection because one of the things I really love about Focused Space, and I think you guys are really, really thoughtful about this, is that you and I are extroverts. So we're gonna be like camera on. I even did my hair and makeup when I come to the meeting. Like, camera on, energy on, interaction on. Like, I'm gonna take advantage of the opportunity to say what I'm working on, what progress I made. I'm gonna soak up all the cheers. I'm gonna soak up all the hearts and the high fives and the good for you and you go girl and add a girl and all that because that is what my brain needs and frankly my personality.
But other people are not like that, don't need to be anything like that. And so for them, they can have, like, a quiet sense of community. Camera off, mic off, chat off. They don't I like, you know, they're there because they register for the meeting. But community for them does not require them to be interactive. It's just, as you say, dedicating the time, scheduling it, planning for it, showing up for it, and making a decision on how they're going to use that time. Nobody needs to see them for it to work. And you mentioned earlier that you don't even have to know who the other person is.
Body doubling or virtual co-working is totally different than any other kind of meeting we might have. Because stop me if I'm wrong, but one of the things I hated most about working in organizations before I went out on my own was so many meetings that really served no purpose. Like, there were meetings for the sake of having meetings, and you would spend sometimes half your day in meetings during which nothing got done. In many cases, nothing even got decided. It got rolled over to the next meeting. And then you've gotta fit your work in to whatever part of your day is left over after the meetings have taken up most of it. Co-working, you're actually getting something done during the meeting time, which to me totally changes the way it feels. It's a meeting that's not a meeting because you actually need what you've done.
G: I love that way of thinking about it, Diann. And one thing that I'm really excited about is when we have a team that's working with Focused Space and everyone's bought in, and then they all can share their goals with each other for the day. And so they can see, like, hey, my goal is to be heads down, no meetings day for me. And once you see that on the platform, you're able to all jump into a community session and all be bought in and on the same page of we're using our time more wisely, and we're communicating better than we would if we were in this meeting. Especially for the introverts in the meeting or the ADHD-ish in the meeting who are maybe not really…
H: Paying attention.
G: Right. So this feels like, to me, the future of work, which I know is, like, everyone's talking about their own version of the future of work with AI and all these other ideas of hybrid models, etcetera. But the future of work to me is feeling more connected, more communicative, less meetings. It's been really interesting to be a part of this conversation as a member of the Focused Space team. And it's interesting to see what management values too because sometimes what they're valuing is not necessarily the productivity, but it's the team culture.
And so a lot of companies figure out ways to do an all hands or to bring folks back to the office more regularly with new policies. But they're not necessarily always saying we need our workforce to be more productive. They're saying we need our team to feel more like a team and right now, it feels so disconnected. And that's one thing that that we've been finding as we talk to more companies and we talk to more of leadership.
So and I like that kind of leadership, the kind that's the people oriented, not the let me burn my people out for the sake of productivity and make them get back on their commute or, you know, try to force this idea of, a certain type of productive culture. So that's one thing I've been really appreciating is working with folks who are interested in what we're doing is they're not all about that meeting quota. Yes, we gotta run a business here. We gotta make things move. But at the end of the day, we're all human, and we're all trying our best. And all we need to do and can do is just empower each other to do our best work in the way that's gonna work for us.
And if that means body doubling, going into an office, or working weird hours because you've got a lot of other stuff going on at home, then that can be okay. So those are the types of leaders that I think are actually gonna take us into the future of work, and then I hope to see continually espousing those ideas at their companies and being promoted into leadership so that we can see that kind of culture start to thrive throughout the future of work in different companies.
H: I could not agree with you more, and I honestly believe I might be off my nut here, but I really do believe that what's good for us is good for them. What's good for the workers is good for the business. I really don't think most people are at odds with their employer. They maybe just don't feel like they're playing on the same team. Like if they don't feel they that their contributions are actually acknowledged or that they matter, if they feel they're just a cog in the wheel, if they feel they're just a pawn on the chessboard, if they feel they're just a spot on the org chart and that literally anybody else will do, just, like, take me out and put someone else in, like, I don't even matter, of course, you're not gonna get their best.
Of course, they're gonna be quietly quitting. Of course, they're just gonna dial it in. And I think even before the pandemic and apart from, but in addition to working remotely, people don't, by and large, feel connected to their employers. I coach people who own businesses, who are largely neurodivergent people. And sometimes those conversations, when we first start working together, come down to, how do I inspire my employees to work harder? How do I get them to buy in to, the mission and vision of the company? I don't really think it's, how do I get them to do? Because chances are, we're not offering people something to attach to that has value to them.
Now, honestly, there are gonna be people, and there's nothing wrong with this. There are gonna be plenty of people who really they'll do any job. They don't really care, they're not looking to their job to give their life purpose or meaning or significance. They just need to meet their financial needs and provide financial stability and security for themselves and their dependents. So they'll do anything, they don't really care. I think that's actually a much smaller number than the norm. I think most people want to work for companies where they feel like whatever they do at whatever level, that they're being there, they're being a part of the team actually matters, actually makes a difference. Because then that sort of it's like it activates your creativity. It activates your drive.
G: I love that, and it makes me think of improv comedy, which I teach as well outside of my hosting at Focused Space. I teach at a theater here called Third Coast Comedy Club in Nashville and also for a nonprofit called Unscripted. And when I talk to students, a lot of what they get out of this is that we're all working together, and we're all part of something larger than ourselves, just like the type of team culture that we would like to see in the world, is, yes, forming this, what I call group mind. I want a lot of other improv instructors talk about them.
How do we all and not in, like, a culty way, but how do we form together one singular and collaborative way of thinking where we're all building something together, and we're all creating a scene or creating a montage of multiple scenes or stage picture that complements each other where everyone's equal. There's not one star. You know, it's not a theater production. It's not a stand up comedy. It's truly an ensemble and a group that is a cohesive you're creating art cohesively. And, it doesn't always have to be funny too with improv. It just feels really good when you're with a group of people and you're all on the same page, and you get to make something together.
H: I'm so glad you brought up your improv work, because I know that's something else that you do, you've done for over a decade and you're very, very passionate about. And I've noticed that a lot of people with ADHD are attracted to improv even if they haven't gotten into it. When we first moved from Portland out to the Palm Springs area, I was looking for an improv group. And I haven't found the right one yet, but I thought, you know, maybe I'll just I'll just take a class and do stand up and I realized exactly what you're saying is true. I know how to be funny. I know how to tell stories. I know how to make people laugh.
I know how to make fun of myself. Like, that's already a skill I have. But the skill of being part of an improv troupe is the ability to, like, not have to be the star of the show, not have to be the center of attention, not have to be the one who frankly carries the burden or the responsibility of making the scene work. You are one of the performers. You are part of the group, and you really develop this intimacy and this interdependency, combined with risk taking. Because I think one of the things that that's attractive to me about improv is that if you're gonna be any good at it and if you're not gonna be any good, like, why bother?
Like, I think it's the ability to take risks and be vulnerable with others in a communal setting. I can see so much potential to develop a lot of things that people that are ADHD-ish sometimes lack, a greater self awareness, greater self acceptance, greater management of our rejection sensitivity, better at kind of, like, reading the room and being dialed in on what's going on with other people instead of always in our own head, and also being able to bounce back from the inevitable mistakes, missed opportunities, and failures.
Like, all of those things, those are things like even as a therapist, I was helping people with ADHD work on. But improv may just be the perfect container, and you don't have to sit on a therapist couch. Like, I'd love to know what your thoughts about that because I know you are also a mental health advocate, and you probably have a lot to say on the topic.
G: I've, yeah, I'm in complete agreement with everything that you just said. And I also, had the chance to sit in on an Improv For Anxiety class. We offer 1 through the nonprofit Unscripted, I mentioned. And, there's a mental health therapist who is in every class and is helping to dissect and, reflect on the ways that the improv exercise is taught, come back to managing anxiety, managing being in the moment. And I think a lot of that can also apply to someone who's ADHD-ish. And, also, I think there's a lot of ways that folks who are ADHD-ish are gonna excel at improv because we're so good at context coaching.
Or we're not good at it, but we can hold a lot of context. And we're good at connecting all these pieces together in a way that others might not be able to. And so that makes us easy to perform or rehearse or try out improv because we can be so in the moment and also bring back pieces that then delight, our fellow improvisers or the audience if we're performing. And so I really like that part of improv is being able to connect all these different things and bring them back, or sometimes you might hear that's called a callback.
And there's also that validation piece of if we can make people laugh, that's a huge dopamine hit. We're able to really enjoy and appreciate what we're doing on stage or in a rehearsal. There's also the newness aspect for ADHD-ish. It's important for us to have that newness factor and enjoyment out of what we're doing, and that's been really neat because every time you improvise, you're coming up with something new, and it's gonna be totally different from what you've already done.
H: Oh, I love that. The novelty seeking and also you know, I've always thought because I'm pretty impulsive. I've always thought that was a bad thing. Certainly got me a lot of negative feedback in my formative years. But now I choose to think of that impulsivity as, spontaneity and willingness to take a risk, willingness to fail, willingness to make a mistake, willing to, like, have the joke not land or to introduce something into a conversation that I think is fucking brilliant, and it just goes nowhere.
But we become more resilient when we learn how to try things regardless of whether we get a reward or not, the reward comes in the fact that you tried the reward comes in while I put myself out there. And yeah, maybe somebody didn't pick up on it. But I put myself out there. Like, did you notice that? Like, I did that and even for a person who is more shy or more reserved or more withdrawn, I would also think that body doubling or co-working might be a great place for people to develop a little bit more comfort and a little more skill interacting with others in impeccably safe space.
G: Mhmm. Yes, definitely. Just knowing that there's someone there, don't need to interact with them, but they're there might give you a little bit of comfort. And then if you keep coming back, maybe you might start engaging with that community because as you feel more comfortable and safe, you're able to make someone else new feel more comfortable and safe and or share what you've been up to all this time that you might have been a little bit quieter than other folks in the community.
H: And you can pace it your own way. Like, there's one of the things I really like about how you do this compared to the other platforms is there's a lot of freedom. There's a lot of flexibility as we've been talking about how you can kind of customize your experience of the community according to your own needs, wishes, wants, preferences, and priorities. But you also create enough structure in the container that it's not like we're not free ranging it. You're not just showing up, like, I hope something happens here. It's like the way you start with the meditation, the way you start with the check ins. It's like there's just enough guidance that people don't feel like they need to figure everything out.
Like, you provide that, but it's enough structure. And I think of it more of an invitation than obligation. Like, okay, we're gonna start with this. You don't have to meditate if you don't want to. Twill your thumbs. You can stare out the window. You can balance your checkbook. Like but this is how we're gonna start. And it's like you get to do what you want, and you don't have to do what you don't want. And I think, the flexibility of that, but also the structure of it. Because I don't know about you, Becca, but I do best with structure. I just don't like that that's the case.
G: I completely get that. And one thing I'll mention is that we usually host an hour and a half sessions throughout the day. And even on the weekends, we have even longer sessions, and we use the Pomodoro method, which has been helping folks with ADHD for a while now to add some of that structure. And so each session we have has 25 minute sprints following that Pomodoro technique. And you can do one sprint and then head out, or you can do half a sprint ff it's not if you gotta run, you gotta run. It's very calm and welcoming. So you don't have to have all the structure, but it is there.
So that I like to say at the beginning of a session, we've got 3 25 minute sprints. If you wanna do one thing for each sprint, great. If you wanna do one thing the whole time, also great. But we're gonna have breaks, and we're gonna stretch a little, breathe a little in between each of those 25 minutes so you're not so bogged down and on your computer the whole time, staring and not getting things done as joyfully and maybe easily or productively as you might with those breaks and with that added structure. I wanted to add too, like, we have structure sometimes in our day, entrepreneur or not, based on our work schedules and our meetings and our bosses.
But it's different when you have structure plus accountability down to that word we were talking about earlier. Because accountability from your manager and the company is not the same kind of accountability I get from a body double or a host on Focused Space or a new friend that I've found in in the Focused Space community. It's gonna feel a lot different when I get that kind of accountability versus the accountability of something I feeling maybe tied to?
H: And I think you guys do such a good job of normalizing that it's just easier, better, and frankly, more fun to get things done this way. Like, why do you have to white knuckle it, just don't, doesn't have to be that hard.
G: Exactly. There's a better way, and, hopefully, we can make the conversation, a part of, this future of work conversation of this actually is gonna be the future of work. It's again, not white knuckling it and making things feel a little bit more communal, connected, celebratory. Even if it's just doing laundry, even if it's writing one page of that document that you've been putting off, I think there is a way that we can all accept that sometimes just sitting with another person and getting tiered on is going to make this better whether or not, again, you have ADHD or you're ADHD-ish. You'll probably feel pretty good about something, even if you haven't finished it fully by the end of a community session that we host, for example. You'll still have that community cheering you on and having your back, in a way that you might not have on your day to day life at work.
H: Most of us need to have our own back and want to be celebrated. Like you often talk about cheering people on, and you in particular are really exceptionally good at that and really enjoy that with the natural part of your personality. And I think that's another thing we need to normalize is that, hey listen. I got news for you. I don't care how old you are and how much of a grown ass human you think of yourself as. We are all little kids that need a sticker or a cookie or a pat on the head, and there's nothing wrong with it. Like put yourself in a situation where you can get the cookie, you can get the sticker, you can get the pat on the head, and you can give that to other people too because it's freaking normal.
Like, we need to stop acting like, well, I'll celebrate when I accomplish something really massive. No, you won't. No, you freaking won't. Because celebrating movement, celebrating momentum, celebrating effort, not just results, is just not a normal part of our culture. It's part of, like, this whole Puritan work ethic that so many people are raised with and how it's been drilled into them. And then people end up doing all kinds of weird things to reward themselves that are dysfunctional and unhealthy because we've taken the normal way of saying, hey good job. And made that a sign of, like, immaturity or weakness. It's like, I say bring back the sticker charts for grown ups.
G: Yes. I will totally give you a sticker. I will definitely.
H: Mayby you and I need to need to do a joint venture and create sticker charts, for grown ups. I would totally be down for that.
G: I'm in. I'm so in.
H: So as we wrap, we have a special offer using my special code. I want you to be the one to introduce it.
G: How exciting. Well, I'm so glad that we're partnering with you, Diann, and I can't wait for some of our community members to check out your podcast too. Speaking of which, the code that anyone listening can use to try out Focused Space is ADHD-ish, and you'll get a free month of Focused Space. So full 30 days of accountability, getting cheered on by me and Diann. And from there on out, you'll get 25% off the rest of your membership month to month. See you on it.
H: And who doesn't like a deal? Like, as long as you're gonna get all these other benefits, get the deal. So make sure you use the code. I'm gonna link to that in the show notes. I'm gonna link to all of the things that Becca and I have talked about, obviously, including Focused Space, where she teaches improv in case you happen to be in Nashville and everything else. And can you tell me, do you know when the Procrastination Playbook is going to be available for Focused Space members?
G: Yeah, so it's already available. If you go to our site, we have a download section, and it's one of our downloads, that you can get. And we have lots of fun exercises in there that make procrastination, easier to beat. You can't eliminate procrastination completely if I've learned anything, but you can tackle it in some new fun ways. So I hope folks can check that out, and I'll give you the link for that too.
H: Fantastic. I love that you called it a playbook, by the way, because, like, more play in case you haven't and for those in the back, in case you haven't heard the message, in case you haven't understood the assignment here, more play and more fun, right? We gotta get it done anyway, so let's make it more playful, more fun, and more connected. Love it.
G: Me too. Well said.
