In this live season-two finale recorded at MOHAI, our host and guest dig into how Seattle was made, from tectonic plates and the Ice Age to the glaciers that deposited our city’s hills, to how land-speculating settlers shaped the ground beneath the city by regrading Denny Hill and creating the Lake Washington Ship Canal.

Tune in for a fascinating conversation about deep time, terraforming, and how understanding history can deepen our relationship with, and sense of belonging to, the place we live.

This episode is hosted by Tony Williams and features guest Vikram Prakash.

Curated HistoryLink article set for this episode includes:

• Denny Regrade (Seattle) - HistoryLink.org by David B. Williams
• Vashon glacier begins to melt and recede from Puget Sound region and Columbia Basin around 16,900 years ago. - HistoryLink.org by Jennifer Ott
• Harvey Pike starts to dig a canal connecting Seattle's Union and Portage bays in the 1860s. by David B. Williams

Additional HistoryLink resources for this episode:

• Lake Washington Ship Canal (Seattle) - HistoryLink.org by David B. Williams
• Seattle City Council passes ordinance for first large-scale grading of a Seattle street on June 8, 1876. by David B. Williams

Check out ArchitectureTalk, a podcast hosted by today's guest, Vikram Prakash, that explores issues in contemporary architecture and architectural thinking:

• www.architecturetalk.org

For more Field Notes episodes and other HistoryLink podcasts, visit:

• HistoryLink.org Podcast Page

Vikram Prakash in front of a live audience at MOHAI, the Museum of History and Industry on the shores of Lake Union in Seattle Vikram is an architect architectural historian theorist and podcast host working as a professor of architecture at the University of Washington he colors outside of the lines you might expect he's written books on colonialism and architecture he's designed sci-fi art installations that would be impossible to build just for the fun of it and he's hosted more than 160 academics and artists on his podcast Architecture Talk with his breadth of interest and knowledge it was tough [00:01:00] to figure out what we wanted to focus on for the live show but I think we found a pretty interesting rabbit hole to dive down it's kind of about the terraforming of Seattle how humans help mold the landscape here and how we can build a deeper relationship with the land we live on enjoy

Tony: How's everybody doing tonight? Come on, you can give me a little more than that. So hi, so, um, my name is Tony Williams, and I am the host of HistoryLink's podcast, Field Notes. Um, for those of you who haven't listened to Field Notes, what you need to know about it is that it's a podcast about history in place here in Washington.

Uh, I moved to Seattle, um, from Minneapolis about three years ago, so I know almost nothing about local history. So I get to be the dumb guy walking around, going to cool places, and talking to very smart people about, uh, the history of this place we find ourselves in. And tonight, that smart person is Vikram.

Vikram: Well, I'm... I don't know about the smart people, but I got you beat on when I moved here. I moved here 30 years ago.

Tony: That's awesome, and what have you learned about this place that we've lived since then?

Vikram: You know, the thing I've learned about this place is how to make it my... I'm by, by bloodlines from South Asia, from India, but as a historian, I've been thinking about a new sort of archeology of history, like where do you belong?

Tony: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the deeper that we engage with the place’s history, the more we become engaged in that place.

Vikram: Somebody introduced me to this idea of, you know, making your history the history of the pl- land that you're living in, and it's, it's powerful also in the sense that it also, uh, challenges and recasts the idea of insiders and outsiders, the...

You know, if you are there, and you, uh, uh, you know, in a sense have respect for the ancestors that occupied that land, then you become of the land.

Tony: Absolutely. So before we get into the bulk of the episode, uh, I want to do a little something special. So if you can close your eyes for a second

Lake Union looks much the same, but there are no ships moving through on their way to the sound because there's no canal for them to move through. But mostly it feels recognizable, except for one bizarre difference. Just a few blocks south from here, the peak of Denny Hill looms over us. It's absolutely massive, two hundred and twenty feet tall.

And bit by bit, over the next thirty-four years, they'll wash away more than eleven million cubic yards of dirt until Denny Hill disappears entirely. You can open your eyes. So Vikram, let's talk about the Denny Hill regrade. So what was the Denny Hill regrade?

Vikram: Exactly as you described, it was this, uh, massive hydraulic engineering project to remake the topography of this area just south of us.

And I don't know if you all seen these old drawings, kind of bird's eye views of Seattle, which show the city well-populated, well-occupied, lot of buildings, horse carts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And one of the first things that John Reps taught us about these drawings were they were mostly advertising, which is that they were created to create the image of a city as a successful, prospering town so as to attract settlers to come in, you know, uh, be part of the town and invest in the real estate.

But at that time, that was not an asset because you didn't have cars and such, such.

Tony: Yeah, 'cause you have to walk up that hill every day .

Vikram: 'Cause you have to walk up the hill or you gotta pay for the horse cart or, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. So the, the, the drawings that they had showed this area as largely flat, but it wasn't largely flat, so they had to make it largely flat, and that's what they were doing.

Tony: I mean, this scale of regrade, of taking the topography of a city and completely, like, reexamining it, was this a common thing that was happening in different cities around the United States at the time?

But this was a particularly northwest-y, Scandinavian kind of a thing. A lot of that generation of, uh, immigrants or white settler immigrants of this area had significant background in land reforming from Europe. So they knew how to, you know, run canals, how to move water, how to move the earth, how to rebuild land, how to, you know, uh, claim land o- uh, from o- ocean fronts.

So they felt that they had a certain, you know, whatever you want, cultural, technological advantage, and they thought they would utilize it in this area, uh, to their advantage.

Tony: And we talk a little bit about that in, um, the first article of the three that we're gonna talk about today. So can you talk a little bit about this, um, this article by David B. Williams that we selected for this episode?

Uh, so in fact, if you go, you know, when you go down Dearborn, you know, and there's that kind of a cut and that bridge that goes over, you know, you've seen from one side of the hill to the other. That's what shows you. That bridge was actually a road at one point, but that's about when they stopped to, to do the regrades because it wasn't penciling out economically.

Tony: Yeah. So I mean, and when you get rid of a mountain like that, or at least a big hill-

Vikram: Mm

Tony: what do you do with the land?

Vikram: Yeah. We are sitting on it right now. So this is reclaimed land right here where, where, where MOHAI is. Uh, all the land, uh, where the waterfront is, that's all reclaimed land. And of course, as you know, most of Sodo is in one form or the other, uh, reclaimed land. So what they would do is they basically hosed the hills down, right?

With these, you mentioned, it was nice to hear 10 feet long hoses-

Tony: 10 feet long nozzles ...

Tony: It's kind of mind-blowing, though, I mean, to think of, okay, well, not only was all of this, all of these hills shorn down, right, to ground level or to a much lower level than they were-

Vikram: Well, just so a little much lower level. It wasn't all the way to the ground. Yeah, yeah. Just, just for the record, yeah.

Tony: But, you know, there's an analogous sort of raising of all of the sea floors-

Virkam: Yeah, yeah

Tony: you know, in the sound right on the outside, right? So that it all gets to this very digestible, very real estate sellable-

Vikram: That's right ...

Tony: you know, level space.

Vikram: Right, right, right, right, right, right.

Tony: And it sounds like some of this work was done with, uh, steam shovels, right? Um, and some of it was done with dynamite, but the vast majority of it was really done with these massive hoses, right?

So what, what, what is it about hoses that what really interested me, which is what took me into the geological side, which is that they could hose away the hills because these were basically clay hills. I mean, I'm simplifying a little bit. Uh, uh, they were glacial deposits, but they weren't like solid bedrock or anything.

Tony: Like sandcastles

Vikram: like sandcastles, I guess.

Tony: So let's go back, um, to the deep time, um, and talk about sort of the volcanic origins and the tectonic origins of this space, right? 'Cause, I mean, again, it seems almost bizarre to think about, okay, you've got all these massive hills, but they're all sediment. You can wash them all away.

So how did we arrive at that? Um, how did this whole area become formed in the first place?

Vikram: Well, it's a long and complicated story. As you probably know, there is a massive, uh, trench in the middle of the Pacific Ocean which is, you know, spouting lava, which is pushing the Pacific plates out on both directions, right?

But this has nothing to do with the, our hills, by the way. This is just part of the prehistory which is that, you know, uh, the northwest, our area, is, A, impacted by this, uh, tectonic movement. And we have essentially, uh, you know, the Juan de Fuca plate subducting, going underneath the North American plate.

This is what gives us all the volcanoes, et cetera, uh, and all the seismic activity in our area. But what is also specifically important to know about that is it's not just that plate going under. Our area is composed not of one solid piece of the North American plate. It's composed of a series of smaller plates that were kind of smashed into the northwest and compacted into this area.

But over the last 10 million years or so, we have, uh, had the last, uh, major glaciation. You know, the Earth goes through s- phases of cooling and heating and, and so on, which produces- Which causes the ice to move down and gives us the ice ages with, with that guy looking for that nut. Do you know what, what was the movie?

Tony: Ice Age.

Vikram: Ice Age.

Tony: The movie Ice Age.

Vikram: The movie Ice Age. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

Tony: With our, with our saber-tooth squirrel friend.

Vikram: With our squirrel tooth friend.

Tony: Yeah. So that brings us to sort of the age of glaciers-

Vikram: Yeah ...

Tony: um, right? Um, which is the, the Pleistocene. Is that how they pronounce it?

Tony: Jennifer wrote the article on it. Jennifer, do you know how to pronounce it? Pleistocene. Pleistocene.

Vikram: Pleistocene.

Tony: Pleistocene. Great. Okay. So, um, this does actually lead us to our second article-

Vikram: Yep. Yep.

Tony: Yep ... um, which was written by Jennifer. All right. Uh, and it's called, um, Vashon Glacier Begins to Melt and Recede From Puget Sound Region and Columbia Basin Around 16,900 Years Ago. So, um, you know, tell me about the Ice Age and its, its effects locally.

Vikram: Right. So this last ice age, the ice moved south and, uh, basically covered this land. Now, the, the astonishing thing, fact is, you know, you know, but I wonder if everybody knows how high the ice was above us, like right here. Do you have...

What would be your ballpark about how high do you think-

Tony: Shoot a guess ...

Vikram: uh, the glacier-

Tony: A mile?

Vikram: A mile.

Tony: Not quite that high.

So it's a massive amount of ice, which means it's heavy, it's powerful, and it transforms the entire landscape because it isn't just sitting there. It is moving. It is constantly moving w- in its own time, uh, back and forth, right? Uh, which is why basically, you know, we have, if you go to Ballard and Phinney Ridge and, and ev- everywhere, you know, we've got roads going like this, north and south.

There are these erratics. These have come down all the way from Canada.

Tony: Yeah, like the huge boulders-

Vikram: This is- -that you see that just- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they just, they were brought down by the glaciers.

Tony: Yeah, which is fascinating to me 'cause, like again, when you think about rocks or geology being in a, in a particular place, I tend to think of that as being something that happens on the order of millions or billions of years, right?

But with a lot of these, you know, the most recent stuff dropped off by the glaciers, it could maybe only be 20,000 years old or 30,000 years old in its current place, right?

Vikram: Uh, yeah. No, that's, it has to be less, yeah, 10, 15,000 years. I don't know the exact number, uh, of the basi- various erratics in the area.

But yeah, that's the number we're talking about.

Tony: Yeah.

Vikram: Yeah.

Vikram: Well, I described them as glacial poop. I don't think it's a- ... it's a technically acceptable term, but, uh, but it's-

Tony: I think it's pretty accurate, though. So explain to me, like, how, you know, these massive hills of glacial poop get deposited.

Vikram: Uh, well, the, uh, uh, the glaciers have all the sediment that they're carrying with them, and they, uh, you know, they're basically sculpting the land, uh, as they're moving.

So it is both eroding away and it has brought a lot of deposit with it, which it is put- placing down, uh, on top of the areas that don't get eroded away, basically.

Tony: Yep. And so all of those sedimentary deposits, you know, get created and create all of these hills around, and that's why we're able to wash them away, right?

Vikram: That's why you are able to wash them.

Vikram: No, no, volcanically formed is so tough. Yep. That's the landscape we have in Eastern Washington that we have one of the world's largest, uh, basalt flows. Uh, and that's solid rock. Uh, that's not easy to, uh, erode. Yeah.

Tony: Totally. Um, so tell me a little bit about how, uh, the landscape, you know, starts changing from this barren tundra that we have during the Ice Age to, uh, what we have today.

Vikram: Yeah, so that's also a fascinating chapter. So as essentially the Northern Pacific warms up, you know, the ice recedes, the temperatures rise.

So the rain started with the receding of the, uh, ice. And once the rain started, the rivers started, right? And with the rains then also came all the forests, right? So all the forests started to grow around 10, 12,000, uh, years ago. Uh, and we then got the salmon. So then all the salmon came and the salmon started to run up the rivers.

This is all one interconnected, uh, ecological zone. You know, the salmon runs in northern Japan and the salmon runs here in the Pacific Northwest. These are all connected- And one of the things that's interesting for me, uh, just as an architectural historian, which has nothing to do with our thing, is, you know, there is even connection with the old housing types of some of the indigenous people here in the Pacific Northwest and the really old, uh, uh, communities of Japan from way back.

But anyway, that's a, that, that's a side, aside-

Tony: Oh, no, no, no ... note. We're going down that rabbit hole- ... for sure. Because when we started talking about this in prep for tonight, I was like, "Wait, what do you mean there are similarities between, you know, indigenous people in northern Japan, uh, in that age," right, 15,000 years ago here?

So it's a way of building, and that's the same way of building you find in many places over here and in Japan, uh, at about the same time. Now of course, that is when, when the ice recedes, but there is still a connection, is when the human animal walks across, uh-

Tony: The Bering Strait ...

Vikram: the Bering Strait. That's right. The land- That's right ... bridge. That's right.

You would just be like, "Oh, we keep heading east, and we keep heading east, and now we're heading south," right? But what do you think would've prompted people to do that?

Vikram: You know, it's, it's, it's astonishing that we did that. You know, for almost, let's say at least 200,000 years, advanced human animals were, we were quite happy in Africa, 200 to maybe 300,000 years.

It depends on, you know, how you say when we started. There are all kinds of cutoff points. But for a long time we were happy in Africa. And we spread all over Africa. We dealt with all kinds of climate change that happened over time. And we had prosperous communities, which is why even till this day, the highest diversity of language, uh, and peoples is still in Africa.

Tony: It's gotta be a flood. That's why everybody's got a flood myth. It's gotta, it's gotta be a flood. There's gotta be a flood.

Vikram: It's gotta be a flood. And maybe there were some factors, but there's nothing, like, obvious. And we used to think, well, we moved out, we settled, you know, as close as we could, you know, Mesopotamia, and that's like, "We're done, we're done, we're done.

You know, the first-- between the first and second wave of people who left Africa made it all the way to Australia Like, so the indigenous people of Australia are really ancient. Like, why? I mean, there was no shortage of land, guys. I mean, there's plenty, plenty of land. Uh, there was a lot of food. They were mostly moving along the coast, so there was plenty of fish.

There was plenty of everything else that they needed. Climate was okay most of this time. But there's something about us. We were building city- not cities, we were building settlements everywhere. It's not like we just kept moving. Some people would stay, and some people would keep moving. Some people would stay, some people would keep moving.

Tony: But, I mean, I think, like, there's a modern analog, too, which is neither of us are originally from here, right? So why did we come here? R- we- I know I didn't come here because Minnesota was, you know, suddenly devastated by some, uh, well, it was devastated by a massive plague, but everywhere was devastated-

by a massive plague, unfortunately. Um, you know, but I didn't move here because Minnesota got hit by a meteor or something like that. I moved here because I had friends here, and it sounded kinda cool, and they moved out here because they had people out here- Hmm ... and they probably moved out here because, I don't know, they heard it was pretty.

Vikram: So I've just finished a book in which I talk about this, but I, I make the assertion we are as much a settling animal as we are a migrating animal. It's just both of them are wired deep into our DNA, and maybe it has got to do with our long, uh, history in, as, uh, hunter-gatherers. But somehow that's there.

You know, so this is what we have been doing for an extremely long time. And I romantically like to think that this has got to do with curiosity.

Tony: I mean, I think it has to, right? I mean, one thing I think it's very easy for us to forget as modern human beings is just how old our species is. Uh, you know, again, like you said, anatomically modern human beings, we're not even talking about Homo erectus or- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

You know, it's hard to say for sure because we don't have anything written down, but all of these people would've been as smart, as creative, and have as rich inner lives probably as we do today. And when we think about the grand arc of human history, we're talking about 5% of our time as a species that we've been on this planet.

So that's really an interesting thing to me every time I'm like, "Oh my God, why is my screen time still going up?" Like, why am I doom scrolling? Why can't I stop myself from looking at the latest thing the administration has done? It's like because like my brain is not set up for this. My brain is set up for wandering around in the forest and throwing sharp sticks at deer.

VIkram: And something about it, we had made our way all the way to the tip of South America, uh, by 10,000 years ago.

Like- What, what's with us, Matt? Uh-

Vikram: Yeah ...

Tony: anyway. Um, this next age is sort of when, as you said, the rainfall starts coming about, um- Yeah, a- ... and it, the Pacific Northwest starts looking the way that we were expecting. Right.

Vikram: Right. And, and the interesting thing is, you know, this generation of first generation and second generation, the people who settled, the w- we call the indigenous people of the Pacific Northwest, that we, Sora just, uh-

Tony: Duwamish folks, yeah

But at, till, until very recently, until the late 19th and, and well into the 20th century, you could literally go to these rivers while salmon were running, close your eyes and put your hand and grab a fish and say, "Honey, I've got the dinner," you know, whatever it was. Uh, there was s-so much salmon. So much salmon.

And so they were never short of food. Uh, and that's how many ways the potlatches, et cetera, took place because they were like, "Well, we gotta, you know, get together and get to rebuild community and talk to each other or get some m- weddings done," this, that, everything, and, uh, and redistribute a certain amount of wealth.

The, uh, you know, old Haida homes were also carved out of the earth. The most sacred point was the middle where there would be a fire in the middle around a huge pit. So you can see the memorialization of the geography and with it the geology and the ecology that supported their life in the design of the houses.

Tony: Yeah, the architecture is dependent- Yeah ... on all of these natural geological and environmental changes that we've been talking about.

VIkram: That's right. That's right. That's right.

Please don't sue me, MOHAI. Um, Chesiyahhu was the last Duwamish chief, um, who lived at the south edge of Lake Union. Um, and you know, obviously we're just north of this massive public works project of the Denny Hill being regraded, but we're also just south of one, right? Lake Union was not always a through port, you know, for people to be able to move from Lake Washington to the sound and vice versa.

And so canoes back in the day would be used, um, because you could transport things across Lake Washington, then you could portage them a smaller amount of distance to Lake Union and then portage again, um, to Lake Washington itself. But we're gonna talk a little bit about the, um, the development of the Lake Washington Ship Canal in a second.

You know, to the extent that your architecture, your beliefs, your culture, your way of being is all informed by that place. And I think that the settlers also ended up having to adopt some of that, you know, especially in, like, the washing away of the hills, right, in response to the way that the geology's set up.

But a lot of the time it's much more focused on fixing the things about the natural environment that they don't like as opposed to, uh, growing to be in a relationship with them.

Vikram: Well, yeah. I mean, uh- Settlement in the West, you know, and there were many factors, uh, uh, driving it and, uh, informing it. Uh, but certainly one of the key factors was, uh, property, uh, ownership, uh-

Tony: Land speculation

So that then connects, you know, uh, slowly to the Denny Regrade story that I-- that we started off with, which is that, uh, you know, it was a speculated land speculation driven thing of making sloping land, uh, less sloping or flat, let's just say, and producing new land at lower real estate values, which could also potentially be bought and sold.

So, uh, so that's how two things happened, which is A, we transformed the Duwamish, which was a massive delta, you know, basically a huge swampy area, uh, which had a huge volume of water that used to come out of the Duwamish. Uh, we wanted to reduce the volume of water that would flow into the Duwamish, come out of the Duwamish, and be able to claim the land around it.

And so this was a two-in-one, uh, kind of a solution, uh, which is that the idea was that by building the cut, by connecting, uh, Lake Washington to Lake Union and then from there to Puget Sound, A, that would create a navigable pathway, and B, it would more importantly lower the level of Lake Washington That was very important because it was lowered, you know, six feet six feet or eight feet, uh, which significantly reduced f- first reduced and then completely, uh, dried out the Black River you know, which was the little river that used to connect Lake Washington to the Duwamish So by lowering the, uh, the, the, the lake and connecting it this direction, not only did we make that navigable, we were able to, you know, [00:38:00] um, uh, canalize it and reclaim the, the land on both sides. And-

Tony: Yeah, build around it, make it more useful to us.

Vikram: Yeah, and then the Black River died. So that river's gone.

So, like, tell me about how this whole canaling project got started, right? This idea that, like, "Okay, we're actually gonna successfully..." Because it's a pretty wild story.

Vikram: Well, I actually don't know mu- that much about this, you know. You should tell us, Tony.

Tony: Uh. I mean, it's, it's fascinating. So this guy, um, Harvey Pike, right, um, is very much in this line of land speculators.

So I think a lot of people think of European colonization of the West as being a project of true settlers, of people who, you know, move and are like, "Hey, we're gonna have our little house on the prairie, and we're gonna start farming there, and that land's gonna stay in our family for many generations."

So it was much more like a startup culture than it was like somebody going and developing their farm in the middle of nowhere and keeping that farm, right? Um, I think that gets left out of a lot of the discussion of American colonization and the westward expansion. Um, a lot of these people were, in effect, venture capitalists, right?

Which is, of course, what the first European colonies in North America were. They were venture capital funded colonies, right? They were here to make money. So people move, and they're like, "All right, you know, we're gonna seize this particular bit of land," or, "We're gonna claim this particular bit of land, and then we're gonna start developing it."

And basically, like, with a bunch of, like, with a pickax, he just, like, goes out there- ... and starts, like, trying to single-handedly dig the Montlake Cut. And, um, so he started trying to do this in 1861. Um, and was bartering, like, manual labor for land other people were claiming in order to have this kind of chaotic dream that he was gonna single-handedly dig the Lake Washington Ship Canal and then sell it to question mark for question mark amount of money.

Um, but of course, that project was taken up by the government and, uh, other assorted industry folks, and, uh, the Lake Washington Ship Canal opened to boat traffic in 1916. So I think, like, that's another example of the fascinating desire that we have as people of controlling this environment and thinking about what's possible as far as, you know, how we're able to impact our individual environment.

Make it sellable. And I mean, Vikram, what do you think, like, it means for us to, to be here? I mean, I just have a sense of awe, I think, for not so much even the human alterations to the environment, but that like, you know, they seem like such a big deal, but they're only possible because of all these broader geological timescale transformations that happened.

And when you realize that actually the indigenous people and everybody came here, came through here first, and there's a very specific, still active, uh, uh, geological and historical record which is forming, uh, it gives you, uh, a different appreciation of history. You know, what- how do we account for history, and what does belonging become?

You know, if I was to insist, then I'd say, well, I'm South Asian, uh, or, you know, as an American, you know, I kinda grew up in the, uh, Northeast. Uh, but by a different narrative, you know, I c- I... That's how I think of it.

Tony: Yeah.

We're looking north. You know, the south is to us. It's wonderful that this boathouse, uh, you know, faces kind of north-south because it's in the direction of the glaciers. It's in the direction of the movement of, of things. Uh, and in that sense, our alignment right now in this direction and the city's general alignment like this, uh, and the difficulty of the alignments like, you know, e- east-west, uh, connects us to a deep, deep, deep narrative.

Uh, that's how I like to think of it.

Tony: Absolutely. And um, all of it is in the past, but I think, like, if we can try and understand a little bit of what brought us to where we are today-

Vikram: Mm ...

Tony: right, that is what I think creates that sense of belonging.

Vikram: Right. Right.

And just like meeting a new friend, we're just like, again, over time you learn a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more about the various people that they've been and the circumstances that they've come around and, um, so Vikram, I just wanna thank you for helping to teach me, um, about the long history, right?

Not just the, the shallow human stuff. You know, the, um, the sandcastles that we built here, but you know, how the sand got here in the first place. So thank you so much, Vikram. Um, thank you so much to Mohai, uh, for having us. Um, and, um, thank you all for coming and listening to us musing about geology and built environments for a couple hours on a beautiful Wednesday night.

Have a great night.

Vikram: Thank you very much.

It really helps us out. Special thanks this episode to MOHAI, the Museum of History & Industry, and everyone over there who helped make the live show such a success. Very special thanks to my guest, Vikram Prakash. You can find his show, Architecture Talk, wherever you get your podcasts or at architecturetalk.org.

And you can find his experimental architecture projects at officeofuncertaintyresearch.org. HistoryLink: Field Notes is produced, engineered, and hosted by me, Tony Williams. It's edited by Sierra Fitch. Executive producers are Elisa Law, Taelore Rhoden, and Jennifer Ott. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you later this year for season three.