We are all desperate for a deeper connection with an authentic community. In this episode, Eric and Courtney explore American cultural associations with terms like church, minister, and community.

Now is the time for a new approach to spirituality and conscious connection. We're asking ourselves and you - how do WE create that? Psanctuary's new mushroom minister ordination programs are also touched on in this episode.

Let us know how you approach exploring and connecting with spirituality and life's bigger picture in the comments.

___________________________________________________

🤸🏽 Psilocybin Says Website: www.psilocybinsays.com

📰 Subscribe for insider emails!: https://www.psilocybinsays.com/subscribe

🎙️ Psilocybin Says Podcast (new episodes every week):

-iTunes: https://apple.co/3s0cx9Q

-Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3AJY99J

-YouTube: https://bit.ly/3W1W0iW

💬 Join Psilocybin Says Discord conversation: https://discord.gg/vcf82pmRv6

🍄 Sacred Mushroom Church and Community: https://www.psanctuary.org/

Legal Disclaimer: Psilocybin Says does not endorse the illegal use of psilocybin or any other substance.

Courtney

Hey. Hey. Welcome back to another episode of Psilocybin says.

Eric

A bunch of centers.

Courtney

Oh, is it time for confession? All ready to.

Eric

Accept the mushroom as your Lord and savior?

Courtney

If you say I should.

Eric

Burn the hell otherwise.

Courtney

Oh, gosh, the mushroom was cool.

Eric

Eric Osborne and Courtney Rose. We are not crazy dogmatic, psychedelic, spiritual gurus. We are regular old people who started a psychedelic search like regular people do.

Courtney

Isn't that what cult leader leaders? That sounds like something you would say. I'm just saying I'm open to, you know, if that's what I am and I find that out, then I will be open to you. Not.

Eric

You can't be a cult. You can't leave. You can't leave a cult. It's like they won't let you leave. You can leave Psanctuary any fucking time you want. I'll give a shit.

Courtney

Yeah.

Eric

There's been people that have left. There are some people that we've asked to leave. There's people that we've asked to stay. There's the. Whatever. It's. It is a community of faith centering around mushrooms that have been historically regarded as sacred for millennia. And that's what we're talking about in this episode today is, oh, the fall of religious life.

Eric

Oh, man. Like, you know, I'm coming out of the Catholic Church for years and years and years, still processing a lot of trauma. We know that a lot of people see Psanctuary. They're curious about it and they think, uh, church hard. No. We just want people to understand that it's not your grandpa's church.

Courtney

Oh, gosh, no, I even. Yeah, we even talk about your grandparents here.

Eric

I didn't mention in that in the episode that my grandmother, like, months before she died, she told me, Eric, you'll always be Catholic. That's a fucking.

Courtney

Cult. Sure. Grandma is a British serum. Not right now.

Eric

Your grandma. But now.

Courtney

Yeah. So this is a really important conversation to have where we're at as a society and our spirituality and where we're at just being ultra sensitive to bullshit and craving authenticity like we're pretty much all of us are like, even if we won't admit it. So yeah, we dive into that and this episode kind of touch on Psanctuary as minister programs, because that's kind of what had us talk about this whole topic of what is a minister and like the perceptions around church terminology and how are we reframing that, redefining it.

Courtney

Reclaiming those terms. So sure hope you enjoy the episode. If you're not watching on YouTube, please know there's a video of us out there talking about this so you can go to YouTube. That's psilocybin, says and check out the podcast there. Make sure to like the video if you like it. It sure does help us help people find the video.

Courtney

If you like it, subscribe if you really like us and that way you'll be notified when we put new videos out. Leave us a review and let us know there which you not saying you will.

Eric

Be granted access to the eternal pearly gates of mushroom heaven, if you will, but leave us a five star review with commentary.

Courtney

That's right. Elise in the psilocybin says reality. Yeah, the pearly gates await you, so hope you enjoy. Though when I meet a minister on the street, I just imagine Gordon is walking down the street and I'm like, I bump into somebody and I'm like, Oh, hey, what's your name? What do you do? And they're like, I'm Billy Bob.

Eric

Oh, we're still with Billy Bob. A big lobster with us. All right.

Courtney

And I'm a minister. I feel like my first reaction would be to figure out how to get away as quickly as possible. Like, great. Now the next thing you're going to tell me is that I'm not living right and I need to change my ways, my sin and ways. And I just don't want to have a conversation like that.

Eric

It's kind of like like catcalling, you know? Like catcalling has never worked. This never worked. And yet guys still do it. And judging and condemning someone has never been a way to win them over. And yet it's still so frequently practiced.

Courtney

I suppose judging them, condemning them and threatening them with death has kind of worked. Yeah.

Eric

Yeah, well, damnation worse than death. It's after you die, it's still going to suck.

Courtney

Right? Yeah, both of those things. But I mean, like during the, you know, crusades like that once. Yeah, that actually murder was like, you're going to practice the religion we practice and do what we say. We're like, you're we're going to kill you.

Eric

Look, it is totally understandable why the vast majority of modern America has GTF owed the church, you know, I mean, it's like you look back at historically what religions have done, and it's appalling that it's even spoken of in the same context as a spiritual organization that we can justify slaughtering millions of people in the name of, quote, God.

Courtney

Is not something that the Catholic Church like as of today has like acknowledged, like they made these statements, but he passed over theirs or.

Eric

Yeah, I'm sure they said sorry somewhere along the line.

Courtney

Oh yeah, sorry. Like we'll try and try.

Eric

500 years ago. Sorry about that.

Courtney

Yeah, we probably again.

Eric

Are still not safe yet, but, you know, at least we're not killing entire populations. No, it's atrocious. But it's not just the Catholic Church. It's across the board. I think ultimately it comes down to the abuse of power. Right. And religious spiritual authorities, no air quotes, authorities have claimed this proprietary ship over someone's eternal self. It's a fucking lie.

Eric

There's no there is no way, point blank period, Amy, And that any single organization or leader has any authority over my eternal self. And it is absolutely baffling to me that in mass we have bought into that.

Courtney

It is baffling. It's very it's it's baffling. It's interesting that we do that. We can lose that awareness, that consciousness so quickly. Like, I mean, we come into this world and we're just kind of believing whatever we're told and whatever is going on around us, we're just kind of absorbing it, doing it, and at the same time, like we are sovereign beings, like we're all we're oftentimes not aware of that, that we are like inherently like free beings.

Eric

I think most of us are that right?

Courtney

Which is what it seems to come down to. Like, if you're going to believe that you're this God, this being is like controlling you and has the ability to damn you forever, you're clearly not remembering that.

Eric

No, I don't think so. It's not. The same goes for an allegiance to a particular political affiliation or I don't know any type of group that is able to, you know, put a dogma down that says if you go against these rules, then you're no longer one of us, which is a basic in inherent human need, is to be part of a group.

Eric

And so social ostracism, ostracization is one of the most readily available high performing tactics to prevent individuals from behaving independently.

Courtney

I remember being in the mushroom space for like the one of the first handfuls of times and feeling that that social that terror, that because of showing who I am, I'm going to be ostracized like that. The people that I'm with are no longer going to want me if I'm truly me and.

Eric

Then in the mushroom.

Courtney

Yeah, the people in the mushroom space with me and like that's the worst. I think that is like the worst feeling that comes up for me in the mushroom space when it does come up is, is that I cannot be me for some reason like this, that paradigm just blasting in my face and there's nothing probably more gratifying than getting like realizing that's a hoax.

Courtney

Like, that's a lie. Something that I believe that's not true.

Eric

Well, and if someone is incapable of accepting you as you are, that's really a reflection of their own judgment on himself or it is on you, which I think is a valuable perspective to take into this. But it's something that comes up for me plenty of times, particularly when I'm like facilitating for other people, you know. Now there's also the in that role, you know, getting weird gives permission to others to get weird as well.

Eric

So, you know, I kind of play with that. But many times when I have taken mushrooms with people and I'm not necessarily there to be a support, I'm just part of the group that comes up for me as well. You know, am I going to get to weird? I'll get weird quick, Right.

Courtney

But which I'm grateful for.

Eric

Well, I'm and maybe it's maybe it's, you know, a benefit that I bring just to the founding of this organization. You know, we've talked a lot about how do we prevent Psanctuary from becoming dogmatic, How do we prevent Psanctuary from becoming a cult of personality, you know, and thinking even in terms of after we're gone, you know, and the desire to have an organization that can outlive us?

Courtney

Yeah. I mean, getting weird is that is such a vague term because there's weirdness that's like not only uncomfortable but like inappropriate. And then there's like, weirdness that is welcoming.

Eric

You know, like, that's that's a slippery slope because when I'm working with people and someone like, God, I, one of the weirdest things I ever witnessed was a 75 year old man that attempted to suck his own cock for 45 minutes. Right. And like.

Courtney

He.

Eric

Was like, totally naked. That's a good point. And trying to give himself a blowjob. It is. And and talking about his addiction to porn at the same time, it was a very you know, and I felt like it was a great honor to be there and to not be uncomfortable and to allow it to just be what it was, to just be there as a support.

Eric

And Casey, you know, went too far, which there were multiple times that I had to prevent him from, you know, harming himself. Um, accidentally by like rolling on cactuses and shit like that.

Courtney

But sure, I was really and I'm glad you are clarifying that. It's like a really good topic to talk about it, just that whole thing of like inappropriateness, quote unquote, and weirdness in the mushroom space. I was really referring to though, as a leader, like a whole a space holder. Yeah. Getting weird in like the spectrum of that for sure is very different than for somebody you're holding space for.

Courtney

That's like deep in it in the mushroom space. So just to clarify that.

Eric

Yeah, no, I definitely restrain myself, but you know, like hugging trees or I don't know, there's several like I could think of specifics that I have done knowing that it was going to be perceived as a little weird, but also that it was going to give people permission to go beyond that boundary.

Courtney

But in the spirit of a bird.

Eric

Yeah, I've just.

Courtney

It's a common one, I would.

Eric

Say, for gossip.

Courtney

I've been a prophet, beta bird, many of you.

Eric

I've done a lot of purging, I've done a lot of purging in front of people. So that they know that it's okay, you know?

Courtney

So. All right. So back to meeting a minister on the street and what if, like, what if you were walking down the street or, let's say, in like a coffee shop.

Eric

And likely to.

Courtney

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're in a coffee shop and you meet somebody and they're like, Oh, yeah, hey, I'm a I'm a mushroom minister. I'm a psychedelic minister. Oh.

Eric

You know.

Courtney

What?

Eric

I'm an automatic. Honest to God, I would have my own reservations. I would be like, Oh, yeah, you are. Are you now?

Courtney

Oh, I guess. Well, for you personally, being so deep in the psychedelic space, that's understandable.

Eric

No, I don't think it's that much different for me. And believe me, Miles, I think that we all have inherent stigmas in us. The the concern or question of whether or not it is culty would come up for me immediately will be without a doubt. Um, honest to God, the majority, the vast majority of people who I have met that have been self-proclaimed shamans or healers or all of that are, um, you know, not exactly what I would consider the epitome of a stable, grounded person.

Eric

Um, so I would have some questions there. It would be very dependent on how the individual holistically presented themselves, you know, uh, so I want to say that I would be open minded, but, and I think I would be to a, to an extent, as I am to the extent that I am with pretty much everybody. I'm an inherent skeptic.

Eric

I'm from from go. I'm just pretty skeptical. I take people at face value, but I am usually skeptical about this to say it like I'm usually skeptical about people's depth of experience, especially in something like psychedelics or kind of other worldly metaphysical stuff. Whereas the majority of the people I feel like, who proclaim themselves to be a thing or have just did their toe in and have kind of taken on this identity.

Eric

So I'm acknowledged now, I would be I would be very skeptical and I would probably stereotype the person. Hopefully I would quickly check myself. And if they were, you know, able to maintain a coherent conversation and they felt authentic and I didn't get the heebie jeebies or whatever, then I think I would probably begin to be more curious.

Eric

The same, though, really is can I just finish this here? APPLAUSE If someone tells me that they're a minister, like a just a Christian minister, I'm usually like my initial response is, Oh, you're a judgmental, you know, whatever.

Courtney

Right?

Eric

But then if I talk to them and I can feel that they are actually like, very caring and sincere.

Courtney

Mm hmm.

Eric

And not trying to tell me how to live my life from go, then I'm no, I'm going to think differently about it.

Courtney

Yeah. This is such a great topic of conversation because like before this episode, when we were talking, before we started recording, we were talking about what we were going to talk about and touching on the topic of dogma and how like I was referencing. For me, that's been something that's been a major turnoff in getting involved with faith organizations and I as I was talking through it, I was saying like, Well, it's hard for me to see Psanctuary is really ever going there and being dogmatic just because of how we're starting.

Courtney

However, just this short conversation, I'm realizing like I have a lot of judgments towards groups of people like, yes, the minister thing, like Christian ministers. That's like pretty triggering for me. I know for a lot of other people. Like I just I you know, how many of us have seen the dude on the soapbox, just like going at it on college campus or wherever the hell they are.

Courtney

And however, through Psanctuary meeting ministers from Christian backgrounds who are cool as can be and really open minded and interested in approaching things differently and getting a different perspective on the bigger picture has been really cool and surprising to me. And something I want to be more open minded about is like actively welcoming those people in. It's like, I got the same thing with doctors.

Courtney

Like, I mean a doctor and I'm like, Oh, like, what are you going to tell me to do that? I don't want to do or I don't agree with, because that's happened so much of my life, but not each one of us is created equal.

Eric

Then that's where psychedelics are in such an interesting space, because on the, you know, the clinical side there is that same maybe even more potential for dogma. And on the religious side, you know, that exists as well. But psychedelics fit, particularly since I'm going to belief it's so neatly right in the middle that it provides an opportunity for both disciplines to come together and come together with a different approach.

Eric

There will be both psychedelic religions and, you know, clinical practices that have a our way or the highway approach as this matures because of my own maturity and growth. And so I'm in space, I believe that it's eventually the majority will move towards the center because if you are practicing with the mushroom, then you will learn relatively quickly that you ain't got it all figured out.

Courtney

Yeah, my.

Eric

Question there is, or my suspicion, however I should say, is that the religious organizations that the administrators of those organizations will be much more likely to actually participate in, you know, consumption of the sacrament. Whereas the majority I feel like it's likely that the majority of clinicians will not actually take the substance themselves. And so we may see a little more rapid evolution in psychedelic religious practice than we do in clinical practice.

Courtney

Mm hmm. Yeah. Coming from the model of like, the models are inherently so different. Like traditionally with a mushroom practice, the person administering is oftentimes consuming communing as well to be on that same energetic space. But like therapists or clinicians, not therapists, but like psychiatrists and people that prescribed medication or like usually not taking it along with their client or patients, which.

Eric

I think is another reason that the the masses themselves will also gravitate towards the religious use model, because you want to know that you're working with someone who knows what they're working with, and you're going to see that much more prevalently in the spiritual communities. And there's also just the reality that the research has already shown. Thank you, Roland Griffiths.

Eric

Courtney

So we've gotten this question often in the group Discovery calls, which is part of the membership process, the Psanctuary opportunity for people to ask all their questions or as many as they can fit in. In an hour, this question of why on earth are you all using these, like classic, stigmatized religious terms like cleric, minister, Church like because people say like I was definitely rubbed a little wrong when I saw that because I have that trauma with a religion.

Courtney

And oftentimes it's Catholicism and like Christianity of different sorts. But so, like, could could you talk a little bit about that, like our choosing of the term minister when it comes to your new programs and the way we've done things? Yeah.

Eric

Everything that we are. Yeah. I think there's going to two sides to that coin. One is the obvious. This is the legally accepted language of a religious organization and while we don't believe that to be a recognized faith practice or spiritual practice, that there has to be a certain language used. We recognize that we function within a society that does require that.

Eric

So but that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean that it's just a workaround either, because what I have found is someone who was very turned off by the word church, very turned off by the word God. Oh, like, man, I used to cringe when I heard the word God. And now, like I was having a conversation with a therapist yesterday who was a kind of a religiously trained therapist.

Eric

And when he said, God, I found myself thinking like, yeah, feeling like good inside. And it has been really rewarding and powerful to reclaim that language that when I was a child was so powerful and so meaningful to me. I had a deep love for God as a kid. I understood that as a love for nature and a love for community.

Eric

And now I understand it as a love for my existence, for consciousness, for exploration. But it's, uh, it's really wonderful and honest. Honestly, it's the language that we have in the West that most closely fits with within my experience. I mean, there's like multiple mushroom experiences where, you know, it felt like God was talking to me. Mm hmm.

Eric

You know, so I feel valuable in terms of, like, the things like minister and cleric and all that kind of stuff. Minister was a little more challenging for me until someone one day said you, you or someone was talked about their grandpa being a minister and how they used to be as a kid. They were. It was the thing, you know to me how they were like.

Eric

I always felt proud too, when when they told people that their grandpa was a minister. And I thought to myself, Ooh, my grandkids will be able to say that their granddad was a psychedelic minister. I fucking dig it. I think that.

Courtney

One of the first ones.

Eric

Yeah, yeah.

Courtney

Terminology. Yeah.

Eric

And really, you know, as I've been meeting and working with other retired ministers or former ministers and reflecting on the work that I've done, not just in Jamaica but back when I was working in the restaurants and I was, you know, spreading the good news of the mushroom and trying to just gently help people come towards this thing and trying to provide encouragement and just be a caring ear, you know?

Eric

Then I have come to understand that really, I've always been, you know, ministering to my community. You're distracted on your phone there.

Courtney

I'm like, I was looking at the term ministry. I'm just curious about Webster Yes, about this.

Eric

Multiple times you read it from two.

Courtney

So one, who is authorized to perform religious functions in a this says Christian church, especially a Protestant church. But there's also terms like. Prime Minister. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a part of administering. Yeah, exactly.

Eric

So that's what I ultimately bring it down to is administering the sacrament. Um, and then, you know, when you think of when I think of ministering to the populace, it's really trying to be a word of encouragement to remind people that we are much more than just our bodies.

Courtney

Yeah, for, for me, with our new minister ordination programs, which are each designed to, like, perform different functions, I'm seeing the term minister as more of an empowering and empowering title, like one that's like I see a minister in these capacities as being someone who's like spreading and like helping empower others. Like instead of trying to put others in a box, which is how I've previously experienced the term minister.

Courtney

And in this light, under this umbrella, yeah, I'm seeing it as more of like a kind of like a coach like, but has a coach that is legit, that has experience enough experience to perform that specific level of function for that. Minister. Um, so yeah, it's interesting. Like the whole experience of reclaiming these terms has been a really interesting experience for me personally, not being somebody who's participated really in church my whole life.

Eric

Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, you know what hit me in this? Oh, reclamation process was that we in me being the minister of Psanctuary, we were in many ways inadvertently perpetuating the same perspective that has been associated with typical ministry. You know, you have to come to me to get access to this sacrament. And and that's the antithesis of what I want to bring into this movement, period.

Eric

I'm in there, you know, disclaimer There will always be people who need a therapist or a clinician for this work. There are individuals who need real, real care and attention during the process, after the process, before the process. And and that's really important to note, not just saying that, you know, across the board everybody should just be taking mushrooms on their own.

Eric

But the vast majority of people out there, the vast majority of people out there, especially with a little bit of education, a little bit of harm reduction, can slowly move in to their own personal experiences, you know, graduating the dose as time goes on and keep it very safe and be their own minister. You know, again, that's the problem.

Eric

I feel like one of the big problems with traditional church is that you've got to go to the guy to be your access point.

Courtney

Mm hmm.

Eric

Right. I don't want any part of that. And so I have a lot of confidence, at least while we're here and managing the the show, a Psanctuary that it will not become a stagnant, dogmatic organization as we've already seen so many areas where we can improve. And we have made those improvements where we can open up access and give people their own authority.

Eric

And that's what this is really all about.

Courtney

Yeah, And to clarify for us and people listening, like the intention all along has been to keep not only keep people safe in the way that we have previously done things, not only here with Psanctuary, but in Jamaica. The whole idea was to provide a space that's safe and supportive for anybody who wanted to have that sacrament experience experience with the mushrooms.

Courtney

And so this new evolution of Psanctuary, I think is like founded in for me, I feel like a personal liberation, like a personal understanding that I, I trust myself more now than I ever have. And trusting that with with support, like with assisting and providing that support for people being a leader in that way and like, let's form more support, more access and like set people free to trust themselves because there's that sweet spot of like when we trust ourselves and trust the process and others do as well that are close to us, then there is less risk, there's less chance of things going awry because there's that energy of trust and trust in the

Courtney

process for sure. So yeah, that's a pretty big shift.

Eric

I mean, even in Jamaica though, I used to say to people like, I don't want you feeling like you're dependent on me. You come here. When when people came to me to work with mushrooms in Jamaica, I would always say, like, my goal is for you to gain comfort with the medicine so that you go home and continue working.

Eric

I do. We do not need more codependency. If you want to come back and engage in our community and you want to spend money here in our community and support this, you know, on that level I am in. Thank you. It is welcomed. You know, love, love, love, love, love. Having people that continue to come back in to the physical community and help build it at that level.

Eric

But it's always been for me about because that's how I started I didn't have you might teach me and I would have benefited from that and I want to be able to share my knowledge, but I still would never want to be beholden to someone else and have to practice and do all the things that they do and all the way that that usually, you know, tends to go.

Courtney

Right. And it's just not realistic. Like, I mean, for for us at this point as an organization, like our members are in 40 plus states, it's like there's no feasible way that if they even if everybody wanted to always have another minister and cleric or other people, other members present with them, it's just not the way it is right now.

Courtney

So even just like that point alone that we were realizing that so many people were like kind of feeling like they were jumping off a cliff, Like I well, like I'm to the point of like, I'm not waiting any longer and I cannot realistically get to Kentucky. And so I'm going to eat mushrooms tonight and. I know. Don't know what I'm doing.

Courtney

Like, I wish there was like more of a process and a setup for me. And so it feels really good to be able take people through that and allow people to like, work out all of the fears and all of the questions and stuff for a duration of time before they actually eat mushrooms.

Eric

I mean, look, big dose. The psychedelic experience is one of the most personal private, sacred, unspeakable experiences that anyone can have. Nobody else can tell you what that's about. Nobody else should be trying to tell you how to do it. So to let it be on its own. And the fact is, the vast majority of people do not need any intervention during the experience itself.

Eric

It's afterwards that that community and that support is really crucial. You know, so there's a narrative that's being formed around psychedelics right now that I think in many ways is still trying to perform that gatekeeper function. You have to come to me, you have to pay these fees. This is how it works and that is not how it has to work.

Eric

That's I don't even believe that's how it's supposed to work. I look, we're already seeing it. And the more we have these communities supportive models where it's equal people, people on equal, you know, level, level ground coming together, having their experiences and in showing up for each other when it's needed. But ultimately, everybody having their own very private like that LSD trip I did recently like that there was no way that I could tell the individual who I was with, what I was experiencing, nothing.

Eric

It was solely personally for me. So that's the empowerment that I want to bring into this is, is, you know, individual opportunity to explore their relationship with the mystery without someone telling you them what it is.

Courtney

Yeah, it's like you're saying so vastly for each person and each communion with the mushroom each time we partake in that, it's like, what? That was the rest of my voice. You see.

Eric

That coming?

Courtney

Sometimes it's is similar. Is pretty similar. But if I had something like this, if I had a program like this, like a this type of program that we were putting out there to our members, the minister program with a group of people that was eager to experience consciousness in like a whole new way with each other in an intentional way.

Courtney

If I would have had that 12, ten, 12 years ago for the accessible rate that we're offering now, like, I can't imagine I would pass that up honestly, like paying for the certificate that I paid for. And friggin I mean, let's not even talk about my college degree, how much that cost me. But I mean, it just feels kind of like a no brainer for me personally, because I was craving so hard.

Courtney

I felt so alone. Like I had people that I knew that were messing around with psychedelics, but it was in more of a spirit of like, let's party and like, experience an altered state and move on with our lives and not talk about it, which, you know, whatever, that's fine if that's what you're going through. But I really wanted an intentional like, let's dig in.

Courtney

I want people to hold me accountable. I want to do that for other people. I want to hold space. I want to like, figure out how to do that. And nobody I knew except for until I met you was doing that. And then how many years was it till I met somebody that was even interested in doing that as well?

Courtney

So to think of getting together with like 50 to 100 other people, Oh my gosh, it sounds so dreamy. Like, yeah.

Eric

No, that's that's a that is a certain goal to see us having 50 to 100 or more people coming together and dosing in mass, you know, at a at a manageable level, not.

Courtney

Not even just dosing when I'm talking about like just hopping on is like having a weekly like just putting myself back in that place I was in as a 22 year old woman who like, was ready to explore and felt like what I wanted to explore. I was the only one who, like everybody I talked with about it, was like, Oh.

Eric

Well, I'm doing that in our community.

Courtney

And we're still and it's still that's still where where we're at. I mean, it's different. We're still we're in a much more accepting place to even mention psychedelics now versus just ten years. But like when I putting myself back to when I decided to get a wellness coaching certification, that was the closest I could come to at that time.

Courtney

I could find to a group of open minded people who were curious, deeply curious, authentically about other people and their experience without some type of like prescription or back of the mind. Like I'm going to tell you what to do as soon as you finish talking type of way. Like I wanted to learn how to hold space for people and myself without telling them what to do.

Courtney

I knew that 12 years ago.

Eric

Well, you know, it's going to be funny. The we're going to see, I'm sure of it as we're going to see so many people spending $10,000 to train to be a facilitator. And they're going to find out that it is not for them. You know, we've we saw that a lot in Jamaica. Therapists who went through this and other programs, API and stuff, and they came down and they'd be like, you know, this is way harder than I thought.

Eric

This is not what I thought it was. And so I think it's really wonderful that we're kind of offering a more a softer approach so people can, you know, invest minimally, get in there and find out is this even what I want to be doing for other people, or to what extent do I want to do this for other people?

Eric

Because it's it's going to not always going to be a bottleneck of tons of people who are getting certified as facilitators. And there's, you know, not give me enough treatment centers for them to operate in, but they're going to find out that it is very different than how it's taught in the classroom, you know.

Courtney

Eric

Old models to the psychedelic. I know.

Courtney

Yeah. It's like my generation is definitely telling their kids, like, probably good that you don't go to college, right? That's probably a really wise choice right now. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a whole different like this is a whole different paradigm that we're entering into. And so there's like, there's that aspect of it and then there's the fact that it's been illegal, like this specific thing that we're teaching institutions are teaching professionals to do right now.

Courtney

These professionals can't get the experience in that profession. It's unlike and it's unlike even, say, going to school to be a doctor, because most of us have seen doctor. We've been seen and treated by doctors our whole life. So we at least have that experience of being on the other side of it, or like a nutritionist or a personal trainer or whatever it is.

Courtney

It's like usually if we're choosing to go that route, we've at least experienced that route enough times to be interested in investing like $30,000 plus all this energy into it. But now it's like these people, many people are like, I don't know, like it's been illegal, so I can't legally participate to even know if the experience is for me.

Courtney

And so the additional protection that like this, this route offers people to at least get the firsthand experience like themselves.

Eric

So I wonder if, you know, the IRS or any of the programs in Oregon have a protocol for when old men try to give them of blowjobs.

Courtney

I would say if if anybody listening who's serious does not have that protocol.

Eric

Here's what to do.

Courtney

When you come to think of it. That's not technically in our operations guidelines right now, but there's too many like, there's too many weird things that have happened, in my opinion. But every single one.

Eric

Where we are to trust the process unless there is physical harm, you know, threatened. So I continue to trust that process and allow for that woman wants to go through a list of all the weird shit that I've seen that would probably not be taught in any of these classes.

Courtney

If you're interested in that, go ahead and sign up for the minister. Program for Eric provides anecdotal stories of many sorts.

Eric

I will be telling lots of stories of weird stuff.

Courtney

Without mentioning any names. Of course. Of course, of.

Eric

Course, of course. But you know some I mean. And that's beautiful healing that individual. I laugh about it, but he had powerful healing. And I know that there we've talked about this already, you know, a porn addiction and whatnot that is a is prevalent in our society. And to my understanding, you know, I spoke with him up to two years after that, and he had not no longer had that that that problem.

Eric

So.

Courtney

Yeah, I was a really sorry.

Eric

You know, it's okay. I just it was just really wonderful to be able to be in that position and to be there for him while he worked through his stuff, you know?

Courtney

Mm. Yeah.

Eric

We had to move everybody else away.

Courtney

Right. Of course that is. And the training typically, just generally when people get.

Eric

It's like it's.

Courtney

Not really, really out there how to manage the group around them.

Eric

Um, I just, I just loved the idea of what this is all become going to become. It's not only going to drastically shape reshape this, you know, in process of forming psychedelic culture, but we have an opportunity to drastically shift what it means to be a member of an organized religion that has had so much baggage associated with it.

Courtney

I want so badly for our grandchildren to like, to really want to talk to us about things, ideas that are outside the box, like not like maybe stigmatized ideas and feel like like this is something I want to bring my grandma and my granddad. Yeah, because they'll encourage me to, like, help work this out. Like a.

Eric

Good story. Good.

Courtney

Yeah. I just I don't. That's something that I've wanted so bad in my life is to feel like the people that have helped raise me, like my parents are really accepting and open to lots of things. And but my grandparents have not been, for the most part, as sweet and loving of people as they are. They're they've been, you know, kind of paralyzed by their religious beliefs in a lot of ways.

Courtney

And it's made it really hard to talk with them about my own ideas. And yeah, I just I want the opposite for our generations for sure. Everybody really.

Eric

For sure.

Courtney

What I imagine the world.

Eric

I mean, to even think about like you brought up in the earlier in conversation, if you go to a minister typical minister and you tell them whatever your sins, you know, we had a confession. We'd be on a box and face to face with a priest and tell them how many times we did kill ourselves a month or whatever.

Eric

You know, all this stuff. I, I want to see a world where you come to a minister or a religious leader or a spiritual leader having an internment, and you tell that person whatever it is, and they're just like, okay, you know, I mean, I.

Courtney

Had yeah.

Eric

Got.

Courtney

Like setting yourself up for that. Come in to confess, confess for the things you've done wrong is like go and had.

Eric

When the whole thing, like the whole thing with Jesus is that you know, Jesus didn't recognize ns what the Bible says, you know. And so like the behavior that is so antithetical to the teachings I think is something else that it just guy has to overall, we need to see an end to that. You know, I'm thinking right now, particularly of an individual in our church who during a mushroom service, you know, told me something.

Eric

I mean, it was the most personal. I couldn't I was so honored, honestly, that this person would share this information with me. That would have been categorically condemned. I mean, it wasn't like a murder or anything like that, But, um, it was kind of a personal issue that they, that they had behavior that they had engaged in that was, you know, for all intents and purposes would have been very shameful.

Eric

All would have been condemned. And to be able to look that person in the eyes and say, you don't have anything to be sorry for and mean it because this person was a child, was so young and this weight that they had carried around for probably 20 plus years at that point that they felt like was so bad and it was was a a deep need for affection and connection.

Eric

And so to be able to just wipe that away and, you know, we talked a little bit before this recording about, you know, how I forgot how you worded it. But basically we were saying something like, how do you how would someone gauge whether or not they could trust a psychedelic minister? And that's a really important thing to bring up.

Eric

And because there will be so many kinds of people that see this as an easy avenue and ultimately it should be, and ultimately everyone's personally accountable and responsible for the choices that they make and the communities they engage with. But you know, how what what kind of tools can we give to our listeners so that they can have a greater level of awareness that they're actually, you know, putting themselves under the care of someone who is authentic and sincere and compassionate and not just, you know, trying to rope in more followers?

Courtney

Yeah. I mean, I would say listen to your intuition, listen to your gut, like your gut feeling. And try and pay attention to the difference between your head telling you what you should feel versus the actual feeling that you feel about someone really, whoever it is, but particularly when you're putting yourself in a really vulnerable situation with someone that you don't know super well and like ask questions, ask a lot of questions.

Courtney

I mean, that's a big reason why we do this podcast, is to put ourselves out there as authentically as we can and help people get to know us. And oftentimes that takes like when people come to Psanctuary all the time and they say, like, I've just been urged on like 15 of your podcast episodes and that's why I'm here.

Courtney

Like, I was very skeptical. And then I found the podcast and listened to you all and I just like couldn't say no to myself in this. And like, that's the feeling that I want for everybody. When you're working with whoever it is, any kind of professional person or like getting into any kind of relationship with somebody like that feeling of, yeah, yeah, that's what I want.

Courtney

Just like when you're thinking about it and wanting, wanting it and it's undeniable versus like, this is something I should do. I think. I think I should do this. You know, I don't want that for anybody.

Eric

Doesn't make sense.

Courtney

Yeah. Asking a lot of questions and just being patient and listening to the responses and listening to yourself. How do you feel with the response, even if you don't know a lot about the particular category of person? Like in this instance we're talking about psychedelic professionals say, you know, really nothing about psychedelics, but you know a lot about yourself and you know a lot the relationships you've been in in the past in people that you've dealt with.

Courtney

And so even if you like, as you're finding questions come up and you're asking them and the topic is foreign, you'll still be able to feel from somebody like the energy coming through them, even if you can't logically gauge if like the answer is right or wrong, like it'll feel a certain way.

Eric

That's a good point, because in this work, particularly, it's easy for in an academic intellectual sense for someone to pass off, you know, a semblance of deep knowledge like, oh, they really know psychedelics because they can tell me all the research and I don't know anything about psychedelics. And they've clearly done their research. But yeah, what's the feeling?

Eric

What's the underlying feeling? Because this is energy. It's all I mean, all of it is, but particularly working with psychedelics, you're going to be exposing yourself to the energetic field of others and opening your field up to others for access. So it yeah, that's really, really which is another reason I think that these minister trainings have a lot of value is because you can practice with buyers self and the safety of your own home or with people that you trust.

Eric

You don't have to go and expose, you know, your deepest self to strangers immediately. You can get a little more comfortable with that, you know, weirdness, that exploration, that unknown, and then start to move more into communities that maybe you're not as familiar with.

Courtney

Mm hmm.

Eric

I wish I would have thought about that years ago. I would have known the power of my intuition.

Courtney

It's a practice. Sure is. Yeah. I love that we're I feel like as as a large entity of people being right now, we're moving into this space of, like, extreme sensitivity to bullshit.

Eric

I think so. I think so.

Courtney

With all the advertising that we're just bombarded, we've been bombarded with, it's like we're just desperate for authentic people and experiences. Like, All right, yeah, sure. I've been told that a hundred times by somebody who told me they knew what they were talking about and should have known what they're talking about according to everything that was on paper.

Courtney

And yet I still got totally fucked. So I like we're getting we're like coming into this waking up period around authenticity and like, feeling.

Eric

I think you're right. I think in particular politics is showing that to us. You know, we have been, you know, fed this two party system for so long and it has got to becoming painfully clear to the majority of the population that neither one of these sides are on our side. Now, there's good people in each whatever every church has good priests, every political designation has, you know, well-intended public servants.

Eric

Every police force has good police men and women on staff. So you know, you don't want to I can't overly generalize, but I think we are seeing society wide that we've been used against ourselves. You know, they've the from advertising social media, politics, news, education in so many religion in so many spheres, the natural instinct, the natural inclinations of humans towards tribalism, towards connectivity, towards ethical behavior has in ways been weaponized and turned against us.

Eric

So personally, big part of my ambition with Psanctuary is to, you know, put that power back into the hands of the individual. The organization should stand as a protective umbrella. It should stand as a resource for community and individuals. But as far as, you know, an individual's personal belief system and their personal spiritual practice, that is an entirely an internal process.

Eric

And so I love I love so much what we're doing not just for psychedelics, but for the religious community overall.

Courtney

Yeah, me too. The number of people on discovery calls that come in and when it comes time to share, like what do you hope to gain out of participating with Psanctuary? Being a member, it's like 60, 70% of the time. People say, I have been afraid to explore what my like spirituality, what that means for me for I mean, sometimes it's like since they were a child or in the last ten years or, or however long it's been because of being so hurt by religion.

Courtney

And it is such an honor to feel like people feel safe enough to come in to the space that us and so many other people have helped us cultivate with Psanctuary to that again and just like, start asking questions and like, feeling. Mm hmm.

Eric

Mm hmm.

Courtney

Feeling that.

Eric

Mm.

Courtney

Yeah. They get.

Eric

It. Thinks it for me, what comes up and where. I feel like in many ways we stand apart and gratefully so is in our ability as a community to hold space for any conversation. I don't know. I don't care what it is. I want people to be able to come to just share where they're at on any given topic.

Eric

It's just a conversation. That's all it is. Your ideology is not threatened, your lifestyle is not threatened. Someone is just trying to work through their process. So for me, particularly, sexuality was such a major, majorly stigmatized topic that was so important to me on a physical level. Little did I know how important it was to me on a spiritual level anyway.

Eric

So there's just so many things that we can provide for communities that are so different than traditional religions and will help to break down that stigma and stereotype. I mean.

Courtney

Gosh, yeah, that was like having a member on the Discovery call today say that she was she enjoyed pole dancing and like took me like her.

Eric

To be a member of our church.

Courtney

I'm like, yes, I love that you felt like you could share that here. Like, that is so cool. I would love to have more like conscious sex conversations because it is like it is kind of why we're all here. Bordello So many things.

Eric

I'm looking forward to You haven't you haven't seen it in the manual that I've been creating, I don't think yet. But in so in the self-care, in the chapter on self-care, I did actually include a small blurb around, you know, sexuality as a part of self-care, you know, And I think it's just so important. And we talk about all aspects of our lives, even, you know, like this whole like in America, we've had this thing of don't talk about politics and religion.

Eric

I just always want to say fuck that, fuck you and fuck that. These are two of the most important aspects of our lives. They impact every corner of our existence. And you're supposed to tell me that I'm not supposed to talk about this because someone may have a differing view.

Courtney

Well, I understand that to a large degree, because it's the way that we talk about things. And that's like, you know, coming back to.

Eric

Don't talk about politics and religion from a judgmental, accusatory, closed minded mindset. Let's talk politics and religion, but let's talk about it from a curious, open minded perspective, right?

Courtney

And like in help being, people see that that is an option. Because I coming from the perspective of my curiosity and compassion towards other people, like I mentioned my grandparents earlier and I mentioned that I want our grandchildren to be able to come to us as their grandparents and ask us questions and stuff. And I also want that for us.

Courtney

I want us to feel like as grandparents and I want that for my grandparents, I would love for them to feel like this expansiveness that comes with letting go of preconceived notions and judgments that aren't really serving us anymore, like letting go of that. And that experience is so amazing and freeing. And so it's for everybody and it's, it, it, it's going to take us all working together and it's like breathing through a lot of things and helping to teach each other how to do these things.

Courtney

Because I really do believe that if we all knew, if we knew how to engage peacefully and with curiosity and conversation, we would be doing it. I think it's it's that we most of us just have no idea. We weren't taught we didn't have an example of of that. We had no communication training and or example set and so that's like one of my biggest personal missions with Psanctuary and like our circles online and person and all the events that we have is like setting that example in a framework to be able to, to know how to do that, because it takes a lot of practice when we're programed deeply.

Courtney

Our nervous system is just like so tuned to just reacting. It is it's a muscle that it takes strengthening in practice to learn how to relax our nervous system and just be with feelings that come up. So I have lots of compassion for people that get super triggered about politics for sure, and launch off into like lots of not so kind of things.

Eric

If we should have a like a political discourse workshop.

Courtney

Yeah, I think that would be really good.

Eric

I'd love leading that.

Courtney

I think I think that's something that probably people would be so, like relieved know to experience something like that. How do I do this?

Eric

It's incredible service to offer the community, you know, because then you can then take that and apply that all day, every day, you know? Yeah, I think we're doing something that is way bigger than we are able to comprehend. Definitely. And we talk about it like we see how big it is, but every time we talk about it in more depth, it's like, Oh no, we're we're just scratching the surface.

Courtney

Totally know we've already like this. We and this the people involved in this, it's like made such a big impact on I mean, I could name like probably people off the top of my head that like I've seen make such behavior positive shifts in themselves, in their lives in the past year or two since like stepping into community intentionally with Psanctuary.

Courtney

So yeah, it's really wonderful.

Eric

Thousand ministers, we want to ordain a thousand ministers this year. We will I want to see a thousand people in the United States who are expressing and embodying their psychedelic sovereignty, be their own minister.

Courtney

Oh yeah.

Eric

Love it.

Courtney

Sounds awesome.

Eric

That's really awesome.

Courtney

Wait for more conversations like this.

Eric

I was way like.

Courtney

That'll be a couple days. Thanks for listening y'all.

Eric

Thank you all so much for listening. And, uh, if you feel so inclined, come and join us for a Sunday service. It's open to everyone on Zoom. The access is on the what? The home page of Psanctuary.

Courtney

Psanctuary.org. It's all there.

Eric

Yep.

Courtney

Sanctuary with a P.

Eric

If you want.

Courtney

Not P.Sanctuary.

Eric

Just Psanctuary.

Courtney

Sanctuary. Like psilocybin, like psychology. You know. Psanctuary. Yeah.

Eric

So weird to me that.

Courtney

I told you as going.

Eric

To be called it. You're right.

Courtney

You're just Psanctuary.org. That's all there.

Eric

Till next time.