Many church leaders feel crushing church growth pressure—the constant anxiety that if you don't reverse decline or manage outcomes perfectly, you've failed. But what if that pressure is actually destroying the very connections you're trying to create? Dr. Andy Root and Rev. Kara Root discovered this truth on a 63-mile pilgrimage through Scotland with their teenagers. As they learned to let go of control in parenting, they began to see how the same dynamic plays out in pastoral leadership. When consultants use decline statistics to scare congregations into action, when the main issue becomes lack of growth instead of the Word of God, something shifts: pastors become managers and God becomes subtle.

In this episode, Andy (Luther Seminary professor) and Kara (pastor at Lake Nokomis Presbyterian Church in Minneapolis) talk about what it means to create space for God without trying to manufacture the moment. They discuss "semi-controlled experiences" in worship and prayer, where you can create conditions but can't guarantee the encounter. They share what it means to be dialogue partners instead of managers with your congregation. And they reflect on what a 300-year gap in church leadership at the ancient monastery of Lindisfarne taught them about who really holds the story. If you're exhausted from church growth pressure and the weight of trying to control everything, this conversation offers a different way forward.