In this extra for the RAMA Blueprints, we hear from three women who worked in the Real Alternatives Program's (RAP) CALLES Street Outreach program. We present this platica or dialogue to demonstrate how these two women, through consistency and relentlessness can lead to effective street outreach support services in response to community violence.

We talked with Donna Saffioti Johnson, the "Condom Lady" who began working at Horizons in March of 1988, and Michelle Alvarez Campos, a San Francisco Native, mother of two, practicing licensed clinical social worker who previously worked as a case manager with the CALLES program at the RAP.

Their story is one of the most underlying truths about this street intervention work, where there isn't a clear cut response plan in face-to-face engagements. They must rely upon their training, gut feelings and personal experience to bring forth the best traits within each human being they encounter. RAP's Calles program originally began as the Barrio Patrol in the late sixties to monitor police activity, provide safe passage for youth and guide youth development.

This episode was produced, written and edited by Darren J. de Leon and host Socorro Gamboa for the 5 Sisters Audio Garden. Please consider donating to RAMA Blueprints by visiting CARECENSF.org. Thank you and please share this show with 2 people.

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{\b\fs48 eXtra: Street Rapport and Response: 3 Women of CALLES in Platica 2\b0}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ , You are listening to the RAMA Blueprints podcast, extra Street Rapport and Response: Three Women of CALLES in Platica.}

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{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ In this extra for the RAMA Blueprints, we hear from three women who worked in the Real Alternatives Program's CALLES Street Outreach program. We present this platica or dialogue to demonstrate how these two women, through consistency and relentlessness can lead to effective street outreach support services in response to community violence.}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{\cf1 [00:01:00]}

{ and the establishment of late night programming for this marginalized population. She's also a substance abuse counselor for youth dealing with substance use and related issues. And a Joven Noble trainer. }

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{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Michelle Alvarez Compos is a San Francisco Native, mother of two, practicing licensed clinical social worker, and the program director of La Cultura Cura at Instituto Familiar de La Raza. She previously worked as a case manager with the CALLES program at the Real Alternatives Program. Their story is one of the most underlying truths about this street intervention work, where there isn't a clear cut response plan in face-to-face engagements, but how they rely upon their training, gut feelings and personal experience to bring forth and identify the best traits within each human being they encounter.}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ This type of work needs to be done with compassion and corazon in the spirit of In lak'ech, }

{ tú eres mi otra yo, you are my other self. The RAP principle of dignity and respect is clearly practice with their approach. RAP's Calles program originally began as the Barrio Patrol in the late sixties to monitor police activity, provide safe passage for youth and youth development.}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ It would eventually develop into the Community Response Network and some of the elements of the CALLES program have found its way into the Biden Harris community violence investments. }

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{ I am your host, Socorro Rambo, and here are our guests, Michelle Alvarez and Donna Ste Johnson.}

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{ Hi, weLcome you guys.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ Welcome. Thank you for having us again. Yeah, }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Thank you, all right. We're going to have a conversation today and we're going to talk a little bit about Calles and talk about some of the work you both did. And first of all, I want to commend you and thank you both for everything have done and what you're currently doing in community but let's bring some of it to light, we wanna, }

{ we want the people to know about, the interventions we want people to know about the processes and, what it took to do that kind of work. And also some of the lessons that we learned, right? We all learned some lessons from it and we grew from it. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ So let's start. Let's talk a little bit about, for example, during the times that you both were working out there and doing that work, there seemed to be a very deep period of time where lots of young people were being shot. let's just talk about that process. Once a shooting took place, how did the team get activated? What were some of the processes that were done? And how you eventually intervened with the family.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ You know, it's, a challenging and, a I got to go back to my brain, right. To think about like, what was the response like? And, I think in the beginnings it was. there was a response. I think that's important to say versus there was no response.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ And when, you know, we were told about someone passing or a young person being a victim of community violence, }

{ as well as a family being a victim of that violence, our way of to respond was to really go straight to the family and provide as much support as we could, whether it was food, whether it was just being there. And as things progressed, the response shift. One was responding out in the street immediately, right. If it happened to be an evening, we're out there responding immediately to an incident of violence and being there intervening or standing back, depending on whether we got permission from the police, to divert other kids that were there, divert other people, and also to expand and make sure there wasn't any type of retaliation, I think is really important to talk about because we didn't want one, one incident to become two incidents. So responding shift, it really depended whether we're responding straight on the street or if it was something later on we found out about and it was like how to respond to the family. I think in the }

{ beginning it was just the fact of responding. And I think a lesson, a big lesson learned was in those early times was, sometimes that response was really overwhelming, not only for the family, but it was overwhelming for the individual workers in a different way.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ Right. talking about traumatic experience, whether we're there seeing or witnessing something, a removal of a body or a body being on the ground. And I say that was overwhelming because we were kind of learning. We're learning as we go. We're training as we're going. And, sometimes it became overwhelming to the family because we didn't know who was talking to the family and sometimes it was multiple people.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So I think, not that we wanted to become seasoned in this work and in the response, but we did learn to coordinate and delegate a little bit better. I remember, you know, specifically, depending on who the youth was and whether there was a community worker that knew them, we made sure that community }

{ worker, if they were capable, we always checked in. Is this something they could be the kind of like the lead person to communicate with the family only? That way the family didn't have multiple people, or service providers contacting them, but just one, and that they would be the lead. And then we had other people then delegated other tasks, whether it was, connecting them to victim services, whether it was bringing them food, whether it was responding to the youth, their other youth that might have been also part of that, or some of the youth that were friends of the young person that was victimized.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So we were able to delegate things a little bit differently, and I think that was something really important to learn. As well as who's going to be at the hospital to respond, I think is really important because sometimes everyone would show up, and then You know, people react very differently. Even workers reacted differently. Some of your workers became traumatized and they were the ones we }

{ had to deescalate from the situation versus other workers might've been more calm and collective and they, a better match to be at the hospital. So I think those are the things that kind of come up immediately in my head }

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ And one of the things that was also important was the aftermath in terms of the youth on the street because there was a huge upsurge in substance use. And when people are grieving, that alcohol will fan any kind of anger that's there, any kind of grief. And so that, and trying to divert the youth from different things, so we would take them, we would take them out of the area.}

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Or another thing that was helpful, some, in some cases, it didn't always work out that way. Families did not want the youth at the service or at the wake. And when that would happen, sometimes they still go and, those felt like that was kind of disrespecting the mother's wishes or whatever, but in many cases they did observe it.}

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ And what we would have to do, not have to, but want to do is a circulo afterwards where, }

{ and we, they would be hosted in different places where people could be and do ceremonia and then also just. Let out their grief, tell their stories, because when you don't have that process somehow, well, you don't have closure. And somehow it's not as real for some folks if they don't get to see the body or to go through that process of grief. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ So you mentioned the circulo. And I've always thought that the circulo, the circle, the gathering after an incident like this was real critical to the healing, right? Part of the processes of when we're doing, when we were doing the intervention and, and responding was also, as Michelle so eloquently put it, she said that, everybody had a role, right? And then there was the role of the mental health specialist, right, the person. Talk a little bit, Donna, about what that circle might look like. Kind of the process of that circle, like, who came together? Who facilitated it ? And what it did for some of the young people? }

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Okay. Uh, well, it depends on, it }

{ sounds weird, but which part of town it }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ was on. Yeah, go ahead. }

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Um, so if it was, it was in the lower mission, we had them at Horizons. We also had them at the Boys and Girls Club and, uh, I think MNC one time maybe. we would just call it together. We'd have a table, we'd have the food already. We'd have food donated or we'd cook. It would be everybody bringing so that everybody can eat. We generally have a table with photographs and memorabilia. It's all pretty much like an altar. And, we'd sit definitely in, in a circle and people would start to talk. And I noticed in the beginning, a lot of times it was the young women that would voice and the men would be rather stoic and just sit there and kind of, because in some ways too, they didn't really trust the process. This was a learning process because I know even a lot of times with passing the smoke. They would say, what is that and why are you doing that? And then, uh, later they would, }

{ I remember one little group, they kept thinking sage was stage. So they say, you got any more of that stage that you can give me? Cause I've been, I've been hella stressed and I really need that stage. So, um, but you know, always like explaining the meaning of, of the different practices and stuff and just being patient. And sometimes just sitting in silence because if, if we get nervous and we kind of think we had to keep it moving, and whatever. But sometimes just sitting there and just being together in each other's presence, then things would come out. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Oh, I want to talk a little bit about something you mentioned, Michelle, and, and, because of these traditions that Instituto and RAP, you know, put on the streets, the copal, the sage, you know, the circle, you mentioned families, right? And so let's talk a little bit of what that intervention looked like for a family. Maybe like an example of how you all would have worked with the family. Uh, maybe it was a young person from the lower }

{ mission being from the, the name of the streets would be that way, right? It would be from, 16, 19, 20, yeah, all that area. And because we are in the mission district in San Francisco and the upper mission being from this way, yeah, 21st on. So was there a difference in how that was dealt with? }

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ I think there's differences and similarities, right? The first part is respecting the family spiritual their own spirituality. So we did have some families that may not have been Catholic, and then we had some that were Catholic. Um, I think Donna talked about definitely, you know, being really respectful of what were the family's wishes during those wakes, right?}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ When they came, I think, responding to the lower end of the mission, I vividly remember a young man, an older brother, his, his younger brother had passed six months prior due to community violence as well. And then when the older brother passed, it was so }

{ interesting because the response was a little bit different because, I think it was 1999 if I recall, August of 1999, and at that point that was, close to when RAP was kind of closing down, but there was still some work being done out there, and I recall getting a call from one of the young people that associated more in that area, and about this young man passing and, and then that they needed something.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ And I remember going out there and responding individually. And the young people had already an altar out. They already had an altar out, and they just wanted the medicine, meaning they wanted the sage, they wanted something to put on that altar, they wanted someone to come out and do a little circle. So I remember responding to that, and whoever was there, we just stood there in a circle for not very long time, just a short amount of time, and just had some palabras and, and just reinforce }

{ like how they could grieve. Reminding them that, you know, how do they honor them in a positive way? And at the same time, letting them give themselves their message about not wanting to go out there and retaliate, but like. holding them to that space and then leaving the medicine for them, I think was important. So, whether it was leaving a sage bundle or some resin for them to utilize in that place where they're going to be gathering. I think that was one of the things I do recall about, a response that was really familiar in that way. and it was interesting, even if you came to the upper side of the mission, I think after a while, a lot of the young people already knew what to do. They didn't need us as far as so much as responding to like, we're going to do this, they kind of knew what needed to happen, but they needed someone to help them facilitate it.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So it really shift a little bit as it became more familiar. in the community. Again, not that we wanted it to be familiar, but it was definitely a need to fill }

{ that part of the healing process, that part of letting them grieve in a different way. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ So part of the work is developing rapport, right? So when you think about the young people, you know, initiating the altar or initiating a circle or calling Donna and saying, Donna, we need you or yourself. and you already see the altar, right? You get there and whoa, I mean, they're, you know, they're learning. They've been watching and observing, right? That's one thing we learned about the youngsters is that they're observing and they're watching. That's why some of them are now executive directors or they're now running their own organizations, right?}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ But I want to explore this a little bit when you mentioned about what were some of the interventions to, to deescalate, right? How does a team and imagine both of you guys being together and you, you know, how did you deescalate? What were some of the conversations, examples of conversations, you know, in the heat of the moment, right? Some youngsters are like, yeah, this and that and this and that. What was the process to deescalate? You know, talk a little bit about that. }

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ }

{ Well, sometimes, first of all, if someone is really amped up and, um, and possibly under the influence, I'd hydrate them, first of all, okay? And I would, a lot of times, I like to walk and talk with people.}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Oh, yeah. }

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Because that's one good way, you know, your brain can say, okay, calm down now or chill, or even if you can convince them of that. Um, but walking burns out the stress hormones and just listening and taking them a lot of times away from the thing because a lot of the energy would feed off and especially if there were stories that were circulating and different things going on, you wanted to really be careful to kind of keep that down because so much has happened because of, you know, people talking at different times and repeating things that weren't necessarily true. And then, you know, because you've seen those generations of stories that you hear about when anything goes down. So, that kind of thing, um, I used to like to take youth to the beach. There's nothing like going to the beach and building a bonfire. }

{ And, um, beforehand we'd meet somewhere and we could write, like they could write, um, A letter pouring out their grief, or they could write, sometimes people were angry at someone for dying, or, uh, sometimes they felt guilty because they hadn't said something, or I remember one night after one of the brothers died, someone was talking to me on the street, they felt responsible because they said, I'm the one that introduced him to this substance, and if he hadn't been on one that night, he'd still be alive cause he got caught slipping. So things like that. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Yeah. when you think about de escalating someone, I mean, even in general, right. When someone's having an anxiety issue, there's steps, with young people. It's a little bit, uh, como se dice, undetermined, right? You don't know exactly, I guess depending on the mood, right? And also depending on the circumstance. So, I recall being in the van and getting out of the van and I saw you }

{ many times take a kid and walk away. You go walk with somebody. So when both of you were working, you know, and doing this kind of work, and probably still do it on occasion, right? Something does happen and you're called upon your expertise. what kind of an impact did that have on you? What were some of the self care? What was the process for yourself? Somebody calls it, I give myself a good sacudida, you know, I give myself a limpia. how were you handling some of that? }

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ You know, you know, to be forthcoming, I was much younger back then and self care wasn't something that was really utilized a lot. I think particularly at the agency, we would have a debriefing circle amongst staff. So that to me was a level of self care. We weren't calling it that we were calling it debriefing, right? And we would debrief and it would give us a space to really also grieve that loss to a certain extent away from the family, away from the youth. So then we had }

{ this different space. so that for me, other forms of maybe self care back then was staying connected. I think the connectivity between my colleagues, my staff, I think was really important, but it was not connected during work. It was being connected away from work, right? Even though that's what connected us was the work. Being able to do other things, I think was important.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ And sometimes those things were unhealthy. And sometimes it was just a space, a place where we could just conversate about what the vision, what our dream was. And I think that was a form of self care because it instilled hopefulness. And that, you know, that hopefulness is something really key. So I think that was really helpful back then. And I know later on, and then Donna probably might know more about this. There was a shift where the service providers actually got more self care. I know the drumming got implemented and a certain amount of time. So then staff would come in to drumming }

{ circles in order to like release any, anything that was going on emotionally for them.}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ And Donna, talk a little bit about. Well, first tell us how you dealt with it and then a little bit how it involved to coming here to Instituto and sitting with Dr. Sal Nunez, and Roban San Miguel in those circles. }

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ That was key because we didn't have that at the very beginning. And I remember when that started, We always would go out and unless you were really sick or whatever, but I remember when we'd sit, we would all check in and we'd all speak and, you know, pass the smoke and do all that. And they would always say, if you don't feel up to it, if something is going on, if you cannot be there, stay with us and enjoy the circle and then you should go home. Because it wouldn't be safe for any of us, if one of us was out there and not at their best. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ And were there some moments where you felt unsafe? }

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ Absolutely. Yeah. I, I, you know, I think that was something, at least when I started doing the Calles's program, that free time }

{ between who's going out was so critical. It wasn't just passing and passing the smoke. It was really about being mindful about what our intention was going to be when we're out there. So it was about really being present. And yeah, there was a lot of times, and I think it was always reinforced or reset or. if you feel something in your gut, don't keep it, share it. and it didn't matter who it came from. So if I jumped out of the van and we were somewhere and I was like, Ooh, I don't feel good. I needed to let someone know. I was like, you know what, something doesn't feel right. Let's get out. And no questions asked. And we would retreat and let's go somewhere else to another area and vice versa. If Alfredo Bojorquez said, Hey, this is not a good place to be at. Maybe he saw or observed or felt something. We, it wasn't about questioning him. It's about, okay, that's the move. We're going to now jump back into the van or let's divert from this area for now. And we'll come back later on and maybe we'll feel }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ safe.}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Let's talk a little bit about that pre, right, Donna. }

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ }

{ Well, one of the big mistakes I made during that pre time was, okay, I became known as the condom lady cause I was doing HIV. Early intervention and stuff, and I had a stash, and I had a stash of other things as well, but I remember I was so eager because everybody on Friday nights, like a lot of times, people would come up and they'd say, well, I have a question. I have this kind of thing going on down there, and I want, you know, and they were asking questions about referrals and services. But one time we pulled up on the other side of Potrero. We were, I think, by San Bruno. And I see a bunch of guys on the porch and I'm just so eager and so I swing open the van door and everybody ducked and a couple people were strapped and they pulled out. And so I learned never to do that. Be intentional about how I leave the van that they can see. We'd have the front window open so they could see who was in the front seat. Not having some crazy woman just like, you know, come flying out the back of the van. and there were a lot of lessons like that also like different times with. Eventually learning to }

{ check people sometimes for substances. Cause when Chemo was big, I was driving a bunch of kids one time and I started feeling queasy and I noticed a weird smell and then all of a sudden I realized what it was, pulled over because now I'm under the influence, have to confiscate it. So that. You know, there's just a lot of things you learn through mistakes. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ So Chemo is what? }

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Chemo would, would just basically a substance huffing, whatever you, and at that time it was this octane booster. And even on the bottle it said, feel the difference, which with, in a star. And I always kind of wondered about that advertising. And they would sell it to, they would settle it to little kids on bicycles and stuff like that. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ So you just mentioned something that's really important to talk about. You know, you're in the van, you're with a bunch of kids. There's always somebody that's going to say something, right? Or maybe not. So you suspect somebody had a, had a weapon. How would, how would you guys go about doing that? }

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ Well, I would say before anyone got in the van, we always remind them, }

{ especially when we did a group intervention and it's something planned and we show up to the meeting spot to pick up a particular group. Then we made sure before anyone got in, we would remind them, if you have anything that shouldn't be in the van, we go over the rules, then get in the van. And more, most of the time, some kids would have to go take a little walk and then they would come back. So that was always important. If we happened to divert someone and they jumped in the van and they had something, then we would ask them to, you know, we would ask them to step out. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ We will return to our podcast after this quick message.}

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{ Believe it or not, I was an original RAP student. RAP was an organization that placed youth into nonprofits to help out nonprofits and they sent me to, the La Raza Silk Screen Center on 16th Street, and that's where I became a silk screen printer. So I really owe it to them to send me there when I was like 17. and I became an artistic director there, }

{ uh, eventually. This is Herbert Sequenza of Culture Clash. You are listening to the Raza Blueprints podcast. Hola comunidad. My name is Socorro Gamboa. }

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{\b\cf5 Darren:\b0}

{ I'm Darren J. de Leon. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ We're the co producers of the RAMA Blueprint Podcast. We need your support. This project is documenting the important history and archiving the oral histories of many people in this community, especially the Real Alternatives Program and their influence in the Mission and citywide. }

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{\b\cf5 Darren:\b0}

{ With your help, we can continue to create more. programs just like this. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ It's important to tell the story and to document how our people are influential and laying the foundation for community activism. The only way we can make this happen is by you giving from todo corazón. }

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{\b\cf5 Darren:\b0}

{ So we ask that you click the donate button and give any }

{ amount because any amount will help. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ We are grateful, humbled, and thank you for what you're doing in the community and continue to support you by you supporting us. Gracias. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ And remember to listen is to heal. }

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ We are back. You are listening to three Women of CALLES in Platica.}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Let me just push a little bit more. one of the things that happens in that van or in the van or doing outreach when we talked about safety. is camaraderie, right? And how you build that camaraderie and that trust with the staff.}

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{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ And, we all walk in different ways. And I think that what would you say was the nuclei, the core, that held that group together, how did you kind of keep that camaraderie, that core going? to kind of build that, system of trust within the staff.}

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{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ That was a fine line I walked, because remember they were always labeled that }

{ RAP was Norteño and, and Horizons was Sureño, though actually we served mostly Norteño clients at that time. but a lot of what helped me was that fine line. I would just show that my confidentiality, my integrity, and what also helped me was I was going up twice a week to Juvenile Hall. So I got to know a lot of people up there. And when they were up there, they would be in my group or I would come and see them, like if family wasn't able to come see them. So you take the work out into the different programs and visiting them when they're, when they're inside and different things like that, so. }

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ The fine line is really interesting because not everyone had that level of being neutral, even within our staff. I know there was a lot of lessons learned within that. RAP took the risk of really, providing leadership development by really being able to get young people jobs, really an opportunity to work. But to also be that in between communicator between the different groups. }

{ So I think that was important as well. And sometimes it was challenging to actually being neutral.}

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{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So I think the way I kept the fine line is I had a lot of experience being at different schools prior to me joining Calles. So a lot of people knew me to be at the different schools to kind of help young people stay in school and kind of not be truant and those kinds of things, and that really helped me a lot.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ I grew up on one part of the neighborhood, but really worked on a different part of the neighborhood before I started working at RAP. So I kind of knew young people throughout the whole neighborhood, which was really helpful. And that, you know, that fine line is really important. And keeping that confidence so if a young person shared something, keeping that to myself and not going out there and sharing it with anyone was super important. And I think that's how a lot of trust was built. Also, because I had worked at other agencies before, I got to see some of the youth, when they were much younger, childhood age, anywhere from 5 }

{ to maybe 10. And then later on, once they hit their teens, I might have come across them again. So that's how I was able to build relationship and community. }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Very important. How many years have you both been, in community work? And that can include some of the other work that you did, too, so, How many years now, Donna? }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Well, I've been at Horizons 33, but I was at Jamestown before that, and another agency. Okay. So it's been about 40 years or so. About 40 years. }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ And in those 40 years, the span of 40 years, I know you probably have a number of stories, what we call the wall of fame, if there's maybe a young person that really, really is a highlight. I know there's probably hundreds, out of the Calles's work, out of your work on the outreach, is there someone that comes to mind?}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Well, there's a number of people who have gone on to do beautiful things, whether like through their, their work, a lot of times becoming, community leaders or through their art and their music and different things. There's been a lot. And what's really been }

{ great is the times, this is horrible to say, but there's sometimes like when everybody is trying really hard with someone. And it doesn't feel like it, I never give up, this is what I always tell them, I'm not going to give up. Cause sometimes they'll apologize when certain things happen and say, no, that's never, I'm not going to give up on you. But when the time goes on, you sort of get this thing that it's not going to end well. And there's those like late nights when like those fears pop into your heart and your head and then they go on. One day, like I was standing at a bus stop waiting to go up to juvenile hall and this big guy comes running towards me and I was like, whoa, okay, I'm kind of ready. And, um, he goes, I don't think you remember me, but you, when I was really little, you taught me how to read. He goes, you changed my life and little things like that. he had been one of the kids that when I took a group to the zoo, I hear my name over the loudspeaker. They asked me to come report because our, }

{ and they weren't that big, they were extorting money off the passengers on the zebra train, right? And so we got kicked out, of course, things like that. And one other time, someone I saw who made this great evolution, like personally and spiritually and everything. I was sitting in the church because things were really dark. And he, he had seen me go in and he came up and he put his hand on my shoulder and he just started talking and I had really expected a bad outcome from him. And I hate to even say that, but sometimes }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ But it's real. }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Yeah, it is real. And it was just beautiful. Those kind of moments are really special. }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Michelle? }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ I've been working community since I was, you know, 16, 17 straight outta high school. and there's definitely a lot of successes. I love the story Donna gave about someone coming back. You know, when I worked at the Boys and Girls Club, I did a lot of tutoring there and I did a lot of, girl services with younger girls. So that was always something that, that would come back sometimes, and people }

{ change.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So sometimes, you know, you don't recognize who comes around. So I've been in situations where someone like, I really don't remember them sometimes. And then until I start talking to them more or they open up, then I was, I realized, Oh, I know who you are, you know, so it's so interesting. it reminds me of when I was working with this young man, and he was really involved out in the streets and he ended up being detained for a really serious crime. And we were really advocating for him not to be sent to Department of Juvenile Justice Board, CYA back then. And, 20 years later, his baby cousin remembers me coming to the home to do a home visit. And I wouldn't have recognized this person 20 years later at all. But those circles are so important.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So, it just speaks to, you know, the integrity of the work, the genuineness of the work that I delivered for whatever reason back then that it can come back to you in different ways. There's a lot of young people, I always wonder what }

{ happened to that young person, you know, did they make it, did they not make it? Those, those things actually do come up quite often. And sometimes you'll get a little surprise about someone and, and that's just wonderful. And it's so interesting because that little boy now is a director at one of the other agency. He's on the board, I think a board president at a different agency that does youth services still. So just to see like. And not that I did a direct intervention with him as a youngster, but he recalls me doing something with his older cousin, who was much older than him and working really with the aunt that was his caretaker. So those kinds of stories are so important because it kind of almost comes full circle to a certain extent.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ You know, we always talk about young people and their mentors. part of the goal of this podcast or of this documentation is to talk about the staff, right? And so is there a few people that might've inspired you or one, you know, that maybe had an influence on you. And then in the same vein, I would like for you }

{ to say how would you like to be remembered? What is the legacy that you would like to be known by?}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ ​Well, just say with the mentor, one of my greatest mentors are the youth, learning from them, being open, being admitting when I don't know shit, right. And, uh, and, and asking questions and listening, um, definitely Roban And you, Sal, and then a lot of people from the teams, you know, like, Fred and Ray and, uh, Ricardo. I mean, a lot of people, Jesus, a lot of people that I'm not doing, um, that I'm not even thinking of now, but I used to love those, uh, love those nights when we would roll.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Joana, uh, Bermudez Hernandez, and uh, John Torres too. Yeah. But a lot of these folks just like influencing, I, I, that's more than mentorship, I guess, but I, I learned all the time. I, I look forward to seeing them. I shared a lot of things with them. Sometimes, like when you were talking about getting that gut feeling, I remember one night pulling people off the street because }

{ my gut was screaming. I tried to get the kids off the street. Nobody was listening, and I finally physically grabbed and we went to the van. But just, yeah, but the youth, too, are definitely mentors.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ And if, and if, how would people talk about Donna? Just a second. }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ I have no idea, but. }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ What's your legacy, Donna? }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf4 Donna:\b0}

{ Well, I really, really do put my heart into my work. And in fact, I'm kind of close to tears now because a lot's been going on lately. and I am committed. I'm also just like, I'm like what they say about little kids wanting to be a sponge. I always want to learn more and hone what I do and pick up more skills. I've been trying to listen a lot more. I'm kind of quiet a lot of times anyways, but, uh, practicing that more and that I'm not going to give up. I don't care what happens, well, I'll be honest, there have been times where I was just had to shrink into a corner and lick my wounds, but it wasn't, it }

{ didn't last very long, but it was necessary to continue, but yeah, but I'm not going to give up.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ And Michelle? }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ You know, Roban is, you know, she was my first clinical supervisor, so Roban San Miguel definately was a mentor. In general, just foundation, you know, who I am and someone I look up to just professionally. I think when it comes to Calles. You know, definitely I learned so much from Alfredo Bojorquez, um, and Ray Balberan and even the early folks, you know, I always think of Mario Salgado because he was, you know, I was very young. I was probably 21, probably like in his forties, which is still young, but for me back then it was old. Then Mario was always really intent, you know, he, he was really good about that confidentiality. And I always was very admired the way he did his work around just HIV and those really delicate things. So, and I learned from him, like how to have fun is so }

{ important in the work, the importance of enjoying it.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So, you know, those are different things. And then I didn't get to work with Ernesto, very much, but I did learn from Ernesto. The fact that breaking bread with young people is just so important. And I would totally agree with Donna. I mean, I'm always learning from young people. at the age I am now, I, I learned to step back. I like to step back and let the younger folks really step up on purpose. I don't like to be the first one to volunteer someone. I like to step back and I want to give other people that opportunity because that's what I learned a lot in this work is that if you don't give people the opportunity to step up, then they won't.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So it's so important. I've done this for such a long time that, it's important for not just the, the veterans or the elders to always do the work, but really to let the young people to see how they're going to form it because they bring something different and new to it. So. Definitely always learning from that. I appreciate that, }

{ that part, right? And I'm always learning. I know I'm, I'm in other community circles and I'll say that I'm always learning from the youngsters regardless. and that to me is more important because it's about listening to them and what they, what they observe. And how they, they check us as adults too, in our own contradictions or like, Hey, young people have so much information just around intersectionality and all those other things. So it's really important to listen to them. }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ And if there was something, somebody would say, Michelle? }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ I don't know what they would say, but I think if I would want to be known for my Nebula, my palabra, my integrity. I think you even asked this question before, and it's always about keeping my word the same way I learned not to make promises I couldn't keep. So, what I say needs to be what I do. What I do needs to be what I say. So, you know, walking the talk, but talking the walk is both important.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf3 Michelle:\b0}

{ So, I think just, you know, being known for my integrity, there's, }

{ I think. A lot of backstories, and those backstories aren't probably up front, but those are just as important in different ways. }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ I want to thank both of you for sharing your wisdom and your hearts with us today. You know, if someone were to ask me, who are my mentors? Without hesitation, I would say you both are, Michelle and Donna. You see, working on them streets with those youngsters and doing the work created a bond. And I'll always be grateful to both of you for teaching me and working alongside of me.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ See, we gotta learn from each other, que no? And the way we learn is being humble and accepting that sometimes we just don't know. And so, we learn from each other. And we work together by being transparent and lifting each other up through thick and thin. Gracias for continuing to do the work }

{ that you do.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ For giving of your mind, of your body, and your spirit to the movement, the movement of social justice, of youth justice, and always keeping in the forefront, dignity and respect for all humanity. Thank you again. We've been speaking with Michelle Alvarez Campos, Donna Safioli Johnson. I am your host, Socorro Gamboa.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ So humbled. Gracias. Ometeo. All power to the people.}

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\pard \line \par}

{ }

{\b\cf2 Socorro:\b0}

{ Thank you for listening to this Extra, which is intended for the listener to get a deeper understanding of the series as a whole. This extra was produced and written by Darren J. de Leon and Socorro Gamboa for the 5 Sisters Audio Garden. Please subscribe, like, and share our podcast with two other people. If you would like to donate to the RAMA Blueprint Podcast, please visit }

{ CARECENSF.org and remember to listen is to heal All power to the people. }

}