Transcripts
Welcome to lottery dreams and
Speaker:fortune. My name is Timothy Schultz.
Speaker:This is an interview with lottery
Speaker:lawyer Kurt Panouses.
Speaker:Now, if you want to watch this
Speaker:interview, we will put a link to the
Speaker:YouTube channel in the show notes.
Speaker:But without further ado, let's get
Speaker:to the interview.
Speaker:So I am so excited to be
Speaker:joined here by Kurt Panouses.
Speaker:He actually is the
Speaker:lottery lawyer.
Speaker:He is one of the most renowned
Speaker:lottery lawyers in the United
Speaker:States, and he
Speaker:has represented some major, major
Speaker:winners, including some billion
Speaker:dollars winners.
Speaker:People have won hundreds of
Speaker:millions.
Speaker:I'm just so pleased to welcome Kurt
Speaker:Panouses to the program today.
Speaker:How are you doing?
Speaker:I'm doing great.
Speaker:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker:Yeah. Thank you so much for for
Speaker:joining. So for people
Speaker:that aren't familiar, how many
Speaker:lottery winners roughly have you
Speaker:represented and how did you get into
Speaker:this?
Speaker:I believe last time I looked it was
Speaker:a little over 50.
Speaker:I mean, even we're talking about
Speaker:early April of of this year.
Speaker:I've already helped six winners,
Speaker:so far this year.
Speaker:How did I get into it?
Speaker:Well, probably,
Speaker:mid to late 80s.
Speaker:I received a phone call from an
Speaker:attorney here in town that said,
Speaker:hey, Kurt, I have a client
Speaker:that called me. I did a divorce form
Speaker:years ago.
Speaker:He never paid me, but he called me
Speaker:up and said, hey, I can now pay you
Speaker:because I won the lottery.
Speaker:And he just said, I'm a family law
Speaker:attorney. I don't know what to do
Speaker:here. Can you help
Speaker:this person? So I said, sure.
Speaker:And, you know, I got into it.
Speaker:I got to look at the state of
Speaker:Florida laws at that time and
Speaker:realized that it's appropriate
Speaker:at that time to claim it.
Speaker:And across their different rules.
Speaker:Back then, you didn't
Speaker:have the option of taking the cash
Speaker:lump sum. You had to take the
Speaker:annuity. So we went through that
Speaker:whole process, and I learned
Speaker:a lot of of the process, thinking
Speaker:back when I had other clients
Speaker:that came to me because once I did
Speaker:one, people heard about it and they
Speaker:said, okay, let's call them next
Speaker:time. And I started putting some
Speaker:stuff on my website, and the next
Speaker:thing I know, I was getting calls on
Speaker:a regular basis.
Speaker:What I found out was,
Speaker:when you just worry about the
Speaker:claim and you don't look
Speaker:down the road, there was a tendency
Speaker:to miss things.
Speaker:And and so for that particular
Speaker:client, they went up with
Speaker:a group of friends.
Speaker:They party all the way up there.
Speaker:They came back, they party.
Speaker:And they went through because they
Speaker:didn't have any counseling.
Speaker:They went through that first annuity
Speaker:payment so quickly.
Speaker:You know, they ended up, going
Speaker:to a place and selling out their,
Speaker:their, their ticket at that time
Speaker:because they needed the money
Speaker:upfront.
Speaker:And again, I learned in the
Speaker:process that you just can't be
Speaker:looking at a claim.
Speaker:You have to think in the future
Speaker:of where the client's going to be.
Speaker:So it's been really helpful to have
Speaker:those early days to,
Speaker:you know, to learn from.
Speaker:And that's why I always tell people
Speaker:today what you need is an
Speaker:experienced attorney.
Speaker:You know, I had a I had a person
Speaker:that contacted me not too
Speaker:long ago that said, hey, I
Speaker:live in Georgia, but I went to
Speaker:Florida, bought a ticket on
Speaker:vacation. Now I'm back in Georgia.
Speaker:So do I need a Georgia attorney
Speaker:or a Florida attorney to help me?
Speaker:My answer was, you need an
Speaker:experienced attorney.
Speaker:And, you know, we went through the
Speaker:process of of analyzing
Speaker:the issues where the ticket was
Speaker:purchased, because those are the
Speaker:laws that that, dictate
Speaker:how you can claim it.
Speaker:So it's the state that you actually
Speaker:purchased to take it in.
Speaker:Is, is the is the state laws
Speaker:that you need to make sure that
Speaker:you're familiar with and that you
Speaker:comply with?
Speaker:Yeah, in every every state is
Speaker:different. And I know a lot of
Speaker:people are interested.
Speaker:There are viewers from all over the
Speaker:world, but people that are in
Speaker:the United States are interested in,
Speaker:how to claim it anonymously in
Speaker:different states, have different
Speaker:rules.
Speaker:I want to get into that in a second.
Speaker:But first of all, for people that
Speaker:aren't familiar, what is the
Speaker:largest?
Speaker:What are a couple of the largest
Speaker:prizes that you have helped people
Speaker:claim? And what about the smallest?
Speaker:Well, I mean, I've claimed, with
Speaker:a California ticket that was $2
Speaker:billion, the largest one ever.
Speaker:So I was involved with that,
Speaker:with that case, as far
Speaker:as the smallest. Yeah.
Speaker:I received a phone call locally here
Speaker:from a teacher, and,
Speaker:it was $50,000, a
Speaker:lump sum.
Speaker:Or she could get $4,000.
Speaker:I think it was for a month for life.
Speaker:And so we talked about all the
Speaker:issues. And normally I'm someone
Speaker:who will always say, take, take the
Speaker:lump sum, pay your taxes and be over
Speaker:with. But with this particular
Speaker:teacher, I just said, hey, listen,
Speaker:adding a couple thousand dollars on
Speaker:to your annual salary and you're
Speaker:getting ready to retire.
Speaker:Makes a lot of sense to do it that
Speaker:way. Pay a little bit more in income
Speaker:tax or the same amount that you've
Speaker:been paying so far.
Speaker:And that way, if you lived to be 90,
Speaker:you keep getting these payments.
Speaker:In myself, I like to
Speaker:tell clients at least $1 million,
Speaker:and then it makes sense to bring
Speaker:someone in to help.
Speaker:Yeah, and if you win
Speaker:a major jackpot, theoretically
Speaker:tens of millions or hundreds
Speaker:of millions.
Speaker:I mean, how do you determine
Speaker:whether. Because in the United.
Speaker:Dates you can you reference to
Speaker:earlier, but you can choose the cash
Speaker:half right away lump sum option
Speaker:before taxes or the annuity
Speaker:which is all of it over a period of
Speaker:something like 29 years.
Speaker:So how do you determine
Speaker:which, somebody
Speaker:should take? Does their age matter?
Speaker:What happens if you're in your 20s?
Speaker:Yeah, obviously someone in their
Speaker:20s. I would do differently
Speaker:than someone in their 60s.
Speaker:That's pretty much already retired.
Speaker:What we have to remember is,
Speaker:these lump sum amounts have changed.
Speaker:You know, back in 2021,
Speaker:when I helped $1 billion ticket,
Speaker:the cash lump sum at that time
Speaker:was $760 million.
Speaker:So about 76%
Speaker:today. This last week, we had two,
Speaker:two major winners, one
Speaker:in new Jersey, I think it was, and
Speaker:one in Oregon.
Speaker:And both of those were billion
Speaker:dollar tickets.
Speaker:But if you looked at them, the lump
Speaker:sum in both cases was like $480
Speaker:million, less than 50%.
Speaker:And that's because the states
Speaker:are only allowed to invest this
Speaker:money in in safe
Speaker:types of investments, which are
Speaker:five year treasuries.
Speaker:And back in 2021,
Speaker:the treasury rate for five
Speaker:year treasuries was under a fraction
Speaker:of 1%, like 10th, a 10th
Speaker:of, 2/10 of a 1%.
Speaker:Today, the treasuries are
Speaker:4 to 5% so
Speaker:that inflation affects our
Speaker:lump sum. And I wrote an article
Speaker:about that about out, you know,
Speaker:taking your lumps with the lump sum.
Speaker:But so that's that's the first
Speaker:question is, is will
Speaker:the client be comfortable in
Speaker:their life with
Speaker:taking the lump sum.
Speaker:Or should we really look at the
Speaker:annuity if it's going to be really
Speaker:substantially more money that they
Speaker:that they need for their life
Speaker:expectancy, most people will
Speaker:take a lump sum.
Speaker:From a legal perspective,
Speaker:I just tell the clients this way
Speaker:right now, the most you're going to
Speaker:pay an income tax is 37%
Speaker:at the federal level.
Speaker:And then if you live in a state
Speaker:where there's a state tax, you have
Speaker:to pay a state tax.
Speaker:Florida, we have no tax.
Speaker:But, you know, basically
Speaker:it's a 37% tax.
Speaker:Where are we going to be as a
Speaker:country in 4 or 5
Speaker:years? And I tell them back
Speaker:in the 1970s,
Speaker:you know, I was I was just
Speaker:graduating from high school and
Speaker:going to college at that time.
Speaker:Never realized it because never had
Speaker:to really consider be concerned
Speaker:about it. But the highest income tax
Speaker:bracket at that time was 90%.
Speaker:So, you know, will we go back
Speaker:to those days?
Speaker:You know, that was war stuff.
Speaker:Will we go back to those days?
Speaker:Are we going to have other issues in
Speaker:this country that's going to require
Speaker:more income tax?
Speaker:So the first thing I tell people is
Speaker:you need to pay the tax now 37%,
Speaker:or you could pay as high as 56%
Speaker:down the road if we change our tax
Speaker:laws because it's the year that you
Speaker:receive it, that you pay the tax.
Speaker:So that's number one.
Speaker:And then of course, number two,
Speaker:the concerns that you have today
Speaker:going through this process, you
Speaker:know, claiming this ticket,
Speaker:if you take the annuity, you're
Speaker:going to go through some of those
Speaker:same feelings 29
Speaker:more times.
Speaker:You know, you're going to be
Speaker:questioning, am I going to get the
Speaker:check? When's the check going to get
Speaker:here? Is it coming from the state?
Speaker:Is my state solvent to pay the
Speaker:money?
Speaker:You know, so a lot of people will
Speaker:say, hey, from from a control
Speaker:standpoint, I would like
Speaker:to just pay the 37%, be
Speaker:done with it and be on with my life.
Speaker:There's plenty of money there for me
Speaker:to live comfortably.
Speaker:And, you know, like this last,
Speaker:this last week with these $2 billion
Speaker:tickets out there, after you
Speaker:pay the taxes at the federal
Speaker:and state level and the lump sum
Speaker:amount, they're still going to end
Speaker:up with around 300 million
Speaker:after all the taxes.
Speaker:And then the question is, if I took
Speaker:the 300 million and I invested in
Speaker:4%, I would get $12
Speaker:million a year.
Speaker:So if I if I spend
Speaker:$12 million a year, I'll still have
Speaker:that 300 million in the investment
Speaker:account. Am I okay with that?
Speaker:If you're okay with that, then
Speaker:let's just take the lump sum and
Speaker:move on, as opposed to
Speaker:wondering about whether I'm going to
Speaker:get that next check.
Speaker:What's the tax rate going to be?
Speaker:What happens if I die?
Speaker:If you die with these annuity
Speaker:payments, all that gets lumped
Speaker:up together and you have to pay a
Speaker:transfer tax on it.
Speaker:So, you know, for most
Speaker:people, taking the lump sum
Speaker:and getting it over with is a
Speaker:smarter way to go.
Speaker:Hey, you know, I'm not going to be
Speaker:able to, to make good
Speaker:decisions.
Speaker:I'm concerned about the spending
Speaker:habits that I have.
Speaker:Then what will we'll consider the,
Speaker:the annuity at that time.
Speaker:But seldom do I really want to take
Speaker:it in.
Speaker:Those seldom cases when someone does
Speaker:take the annuity and they want to
Speaker:transfer it to somebody, does that
Speaker:have to be in a will or how does
Speaker:that work?
Speaker:Well, most states, just
Speaker:have you sign a form when you, when
Speaker:you claim the ticket and you
Speaker:can designate a beneficiary and
Speaker:just have to keep that, you know, in
Speaker:place.
Speaker:Some states will say, hey,
Speaker:give us a trust document, we'll
Speaker:accept it and we'll pay.
Speaker:You know the benefit. There's really
Speaker:trust, but you don't lose the money.
Speaker:So if there's 28
Speaker:more payments or 29 more payments,
Speaker:someone's got someone that you
Speaker:designate is going to get those 20
Speaker:or 29 more payments.
Speaker:The question is how much tax is
Speaker:going to be paid on.
Speaker:And you you actually are
Speaker:a CPA.
Speaker:You you are also an
Speaker:accountant. So you kind of have a
Speaker:unique niche in not
Speaker:only helping people claim the
Speaker:prizes, but you have
Speaker:a background as a CPA.
Speaker:My first seven years out of college
Speaker:was as a CPA, and
Speaker:I went into the tax end of it.
Speaker:Worked with one of the big eight
Speaker:accounting firms at that time in
Speaker:Chicago and, you know,
Speaker:was really doing tax planning and
Speaker:tax compliance work.
Speaker:So there is not an income
Speaker:tax return today that I have not
Speaker:personally filed and filled out.
Speaker:So while I don't do
Speaker:that for these clients from
Speaker:the early stages, I can keep that
Speaker:circle small because I know
Speaker:how it will affect them and
Speaker:how to discuss the issues with them.
Speaker:And then of course, after we
Speaker:claim it, that's when I'll bring
Speaker:in a compliance,
Speaker:CPA firm to help us
Speaker:with the filing of the tax returns.
Speaker:That's when I'll bring in a
Speaker:specialist that, you know, depending
Speaker:on what state that you're in.
Speaker:There's certain things I can and
Speaker:can't do as a Florida attorney,
Speaker:but helping clients with a claim I
Speaker:can do.
Speaker:You know, some people every day.
Speaker:People they don't need a bunch of
Speaker:people in white shirts,
Speaker:you know, and ties coming down to
Speaker:visit with them and tell them,
Speaker:you know, how they're going to get
Speaker:them this great return.
Speaker:They may just want, hey, you know,
Speaker:a 3 or 4% return.
Speaker:$300 million is.
Speaker:I'm good with that.
Speaker:You know, I don't want to take any
Speaker:risk. I don't want to invest in
Speaker:in, you know, like that attorney
Speaker:in New York, he ended up,
Speaker:you know, get involved with the
Speaker:financial end of it and started
Speaker:investing client monies to get them
Speaker:double digit returns and and got
Speaker:involved with the wrong people and,
Speaker:you know, clients that went 300
Speaker:million or 100 million or even 50
Speaker:million, they're going to be good.
Speaker:You know, you just got to keep them
Speaker:from getting in trouble.
Speaker:And you need to add to to
Speaker:their problems. So, you know,
Speaker:getting a decent return, 3 or
Speaker:4% spending, they're enjoying their
Speaker:life. That's what you want to do for
Speaker:them.
Speaker:You know my understanding when
Speaker:it comes to the cash
Speaker:or the annuity.
Speaker:Correct me if I'm wrong because the
Speaker:annuities are in such a conservative
Speaker:low interest rate
Speaker:that that is one of the main
Speaker:motivators. Why most people choose
Speaker:the cash option, because you can
Speaker:invest it in something a little
Speaker:higher and get a way higher return.
Speaker:Would you agree with that?
Speaker:When financial people get involved,
Speaker:you know the bankers and the
Speaker:investment people, they always
Speaker:say, well, you know, let's
Speaker:take the lump sum because I
Speaker:can outperform, I can outperform
Speaker:the market, I can outperform the
Speaker:market. You're not trying to
Speaker:outperform the market.
Speaker:You're trying to outperform five
Speaker:year treasuries.
Speaker:And so you know again today
Speaker:if someone wins you know it's
Speaker:April of 2024.
Speaker:I can go down the street to any any
Speaker:financial institution and get a CD
Speaker:for 5% basically.
Speaker:So I mean, that requires
Speaker:no effort, no investment advice.
Speaker:And maybe for someone right now,
Speaker:that's what they want to do.
Speaker:They just want to be in money
Speaker:markets and, and CDs
Speaker:until this election is over with.
Speaker:And they know which way our country
Speaker:is headed. And and so,
Speaker:you know, you need to listen to your
Speaker:client. You need to find out what
Speaker:the client wants.
Speaker:They don't sometimes they don't want
Speaker:complications.
Speaker:They don't want they don't want to
Speaker:find out that they should have all
Speaker:these different types of
Speaker:investments.
Speaker:You know, so I try to match the
Speaker:people up with a couple
Speaker:of options for them.
Speaker:Let them meet and then talk to the
Speaker:client, go, okay, you know, you've
Speaker:talked to 2 or 3.
Speaker:They're all good.
Speaker:Which one do you like better and
Speaker:why? And let's move on.
Speaker:Let's set up our accounts with them.
Speaker:And sometimes we'll say,
Speaker:hey, let's not put all our eggs in
Speaker:one basket. Let's put 50% here,
Speaker:put 50% here.
Speaker:And after a year or two, we can
Speaker:combine them, if we decide
Speaker:to we don't want to just use one
Speaker:investment group.
Speaker:Just want to go back just a
Speaker:little bit.
Speaker:When you mentioned worrying
Speaker:about whether the check is going to
Speaker:come in, if you hit a major lottery
Speaker:jackpot, do those
Speaker:do they typically come in and checks
Speaker:in the United States or are they
Speaker:wires or how is that paid in?
Speaker:And secondly to that, in addition
Speaker:to that, where does the initial
Speaker:payment go to?
Speaker:Because you certainly
Speaker:don't want to put that in a checking
Speaker:account in a bank that's not
Speaker:insured.
Speaker:What's your.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Well let's answer the second one
Speaker:first. And you know, I've said
Speaker:before, you get this big check
Speaker:from the lottery, your state
Speaker:lottery.
Speaker:This is not the time that you want
Speaker:to go down to your local credit
Speaker:union and make a deposit.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Now, nothing about about credit
Speaker:unions. They serve they serve the
Speaker:population in a very good way.
Speaker:But you want to use private bankers.
Speaker:You want to use investment people
Speaker:that are used to dealing with
Speaker:big dollar amounts and big
Speaker:investments for families.
Speaker:So every state's different.
Speaker:And you would think in 2023,
Speaker:2024, in
Speaker:the world that we live in and it
Speaker:would just be a wire transfer.
Speaker:You know, most, most states
Speaker:require.
Speaker:Like two weeks, sometimes
Speaker:longer. Some states are longer.
Speaker:They have to do supposedly do all
Speaker:their due diligence and all this
Speaker:stuff, and they'll either
Speaker:send the check or they'll wire
Speaker:the money.
Speaker:There's a couple of states that I
Speaker:dealt with, you know, out west
Speaker:that you walk out of the office
Speaker:with that check.
Speaker:I mean, they they cut it right
Speaker:there.
Speaker:Even if it's even if it's millions
Speaker:of dollars.
Speaker:That's. Yes.
Speaker:You you walk out with that, check
Speaker:that that. So and
Speaker:the other thing is a lot of people
Speaker:are starting to play online.
Speaker:And so what they'll do is
Speaker:within a day or two, they'll just
Speaker:put the money in your online
Speaker:account. Now I think that that's
Speaker:kind of scary because now
Speaker:I got a whole bunch of money.
Speaker:So I might say, well,
Speaker:you know, I want a week ago, let me
Speaker:go ahead and buy a thousand more
Speaker:tickets, you know, because it's
Speaker:it's it's monopoly money.
Speaker:And so that's a concern, but every
Speaker:state's a little bit different.
Speaker:Most states take a couple of weeks.
Speaker:A lot of states will issue the check
Speaker:right away. I know Wisconsin issues
Speaker:checks right away.
Speaker:Washington issues checks right
Speaker:away. You walk out with the checks.
Speaker:Most states, it takes a couple
Speaker:weeks.
Speaker:Like Florida. It takes about ten
Speaker:days. Check.
Speaker:It's wired. They actually have you
Speaker:show up at the office with
Speaker:a form signed by your financial
Speaker:institution that's notarized,
Speaker:and they'll even call that financial
Speaker:institution before you leave that
Speaker:day, just to make sure the account
Speaker:set up and, and the money
Speaker:can be wired to they want the,
Speaker:the bank number and the routing
Speaker:number and all that stuff.
Speaker:And they want it signed off by a
Speaker:banker. So they know that they've
Speaker:sent it to the right place.
Speaker:You have to remember when this money
Speaker:comes from the state lottery to,
Speaker:you know, you're winning account,
Speaker:the account that Kurt set up for you
Speaker:in the trust or the LLC, whatever
Speaker:we did or the group, you know, I set
Speaker:up these accounts for these people.
Speaker:I'm the representative to keep them
Speaker:anonymous.
Speaker:And so the check comes in
Speaker:and it goes into the bank account
Speaker:or the investment account
Speaker:that I've created for them, with
Speaker:their permission, obviously.
Speaker:But then that institution
Speaker:may hold it and say, wait a minute.
Speaker:I know this came from the state.
Speaker:I know it's lottery money, but
Speaker:we gotta hold it seven days
Speaker:for it to clear before you have
Speaker:access to it.
Speaker:So a lot of times what I'll do is
Speaker:I'll find out what the
Speaker:state lottery,
Speaker:department uses for their checks,
Speaker:and we'll open up the account
Speaker:at that bank.
Speaker:So that way, when the money comes
Speaker:in that day, the bank
Speaker:can immediately contact the state
Speaker:lottery and get it approved
Speaker:and get the money released.
Speaker:And so therefore, you know, you're
Speaker:not losing the interest on the seven
Speaker:days, and the money's there in your
Speaker:account. Again, that all comes with
Speaker:experience.
Speaker:Yeah. I imagine you've learned so
Speaker:much over the years from doing
Speaker:this one follow up question
Speaker:real quick.
Speaker:The you mentioned the private
Speaker:bankers. When people
Speaker:have private bankers,
Speaker:when they have theoretically
Speaker:hundreds of millions coming in.
Speaker:Where are those bankers putting the
Speaker:money? Is that like some sort of a
Speaker:brokerage account?
Speaker:Like what? What type of account?
Speaker:Because.
Speaker:You know, you're not putting it in a
Speaker:bank where it's a, you know,
Speaker:limited to the protection.
Speaker:They have it in an investment
Speaker:account, which is a separate
Speaker:fiduciary relationship.
Speaker:So there's no risk to the assets
Speaker:being if the bank goes on there,
Speaker:there's no risk.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So what the what
Speaker:these financial institutions will do
Speaker:is, you know, some of the smaller
Speaker:ones will actually go out
Speaker:and do a nice portfolio for
Speaker:the client. So, you know, they'll
Speaker:tell the clients, hey, listen,
Speaker:we're going to invest your money.
Speaker:We're going to invest it in, in
Speaker:companies, you know, you've
Speaker:heard them.
Speaker:So they're going to go out and say,
Speaker:okay, we're going to take 15%
Speaker:of your funds, and we're going to
Speaker:invest it in tech stocks.
Speaker:So you're going to buy Microsoft,
Speaker:you're going to buy Apple, you're
Speaker:going to buy you know, you're going
Speaker:to own shares and all these things.
Speaker:So when you get your statement it's
Speaker:going to say you own 2000
Speaker:shares of Apple.
Speaker:You own 2000 shares of Microsoft,
Speaker:you own 2000 shares of this.
Speaker:And so they'll put 15% in the tech
Speaker:industry. They'll put 15%
Speaker:in medical companies.
Speaker:You know, your Pfizer's your
Speaker:Merck's, your Stryker Medical,
Speaker:you know, all these things.
Speaker:And so when the client gets the
Speaker:statements, number one, it'll be
Speaker:diversified tech, medical
Speaker:consumer staples, you know,
Speaker:a little bit of real estate.
Speaker:So they'll have a giant portfolio
Speaker:put together and you'll have 70%
Speaker:of it basically in stocks
Speaker:that you've heard of.
Speaker:And all those stocks, they'll tell
Speaker:you I won't buy a stock
Speaker:unless it's paying me a dividend
Speaker:to own the stock.
Speaker:Do most clients that you have
Speaker:that have won major
Speaker:prizes, have they retired?
Speaker:What do they are you able to say?
Speaker:I know they've most
Speaker:of them have claimed anonymously,
Speaker:but what have they
Speaker:gone on to do or are they still
Speaker:working, or are you able to say.
Speaker:In the early days it was kind of
Speaker:funny because, you know,
Speaker:the dollar, the dollar wins
Speaker:were not as what they are now.
Speaker:It's it seems like in the last ten
Speaker:years, we've gotten these
Speaker:super jackpots that didn't exist
Speaker:before.
Speaker:So in those early days,
Speaker:if someone got,
Speaker:you know, received $1 million
Speaker:a year, that's a lot
Speaker:of money. But after taxes, you
Speaker:know, I would tell them, hey,
Speaker:let's not quit our job right away,
Speaker:because back then, you were worried
Speaker:about your medical insurance, you
Speaker:know? So let's make sure
Speaker:that, you know, you take a leave of
Speaker:absence from your job.
Speaker:Let's go out, make sure you get a
Speaker:good, medical review
Speaker:and get all your tests done to make
Speaker:sure that there's nothing lingering
Speaker:there that you didn't know about.
Speaker:That's going to cause a lot of
Speaker:expense.
Speaker:So let's go get all these tests
Speaker:done. Let's go out and get an
Speaker:individual policy in place.
Speaker:And then you can then you can quit
Speaker:your job and go on.
Speaker:But I've also told people that have
Speaker:won a lot of money that we're still
Speaker:working.
Speaker:They told me, oh, I love
Speaker:my job. I'm going to stay at my job
Speaker:and I'll go, okay, I tell you,
Speaker:I'm going to give you six weeks,
Speaker:because in those six weeks,
Speaker:your boss is going to tell you or
Speaker:whoever your supervisor is going to
Speaker:tell you to do some, and you're
Speaker:going to look at your statement that
Speaker:day and you're looking at your
Speaker:statement. You can tell that
Speaker:supervisor, now I'm out of here.
Speaker:So, yeah, when when they see when
Speaker:they take a look at their money,
Speaker:when it's there after 4 or 5 weeks,
Speaker:you no one stays at their job.
Speaker:You know, I, I, I
Speaker:hear about these stories,
Speaker:you know, I watch it on TV
Speaker:that, you know, this group one.
Speaker:And they all stayed at their job.
Speaker:You know, I
Speaker:have never seen that.
Speaker:I've never seen that.
Speaker:This is the biggest financial
Speaker:decision you're going to make in
Speaker:your lifetime.
Speaker:We need to have a plan, and there's
Speaker:no do overs.
Speaker:So this is the time to put a plan
Speaker:together, understand the plan
Speaker:and follow the plan.
Speaker:And it's more than just the client.
Speaker:You mentioned Winston Wolf from
Speaker:Pulp Fiction, and I see behind you
Speaker:you have a mega million. INS.
Speaker:Check for a wolverine.
Speaker:It's a little bit different, but the
Speaker:Wolverine AFL club,
Speaker:it was, I believe, $1 billion prize
Speaker:for mega millions that you helped
Speaker:them receive on behalf
Speaker:of a group, I believe.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that.
Speaker:Go ahead.
Speaker:I was gonna say. So that was
Speaker:interesting because, you know, that
Speaker:was a call that I received
Speaker:probably within, 48
Speaker:hours of the drawing.
Speaker:So I got a call right away and,
Speaker:and they said, hey, we
Speaker:did some investigation.
Speaker:We have the winning ticket, we want
Speaker:to talk to you.
Speaker:And so we started the
Speaker:process of talking.
Speaker:And, you know, I said, hey, let me
Speaker:do a deeper dive in the Michigan.
Speaker:You know, I went to law school,
Speaker:Michigan. So I kind of knew a little
Speaker:bit, but I never really looked at
Speaker:the Michigan Lottery laws.
Speaker:And so so I'm going online
Speaker:and checking some of the stories.
Speaker:And here's the person from the
Speaker:Michigan Lottery out there saying,
Speaker:well, in Michigan you
Speaker:have to be a natural person to
Speaker:claim lottery.
Speaker:So you can't claim it in a trust.
Speaker:You can't claim it, and I'll say, so
Speaker:we will know who the winner is, and
Speaker:we'll be able to tell he's on the
Speaker:news telling everyone about this.
Speaker:So I'm looking at these at
Speaker:these rules and the laws and,
Speaker:and I said, well, you know,
Speaker:you have to be a natural person.
Speaker:I understand that, but
Speaker:am I not a natural person?
Speaker:I said, of course I am.
Speaker:So I went back to the group and I
Speaker:said, hey, listen, I think there's a
Speaker:way to do this after looking at the
Speaker:laws. And so we all
Speaker:agree that that's how we're going to
Speaker:do it.
Speaker:I flew up to Michigan.
Speaker:You know, we we spent a lot of time,
Speaker:a couple weeks putting this whole
Speaker:thing together.
Speaker:And we looked at choices.
Speaker:And, you know, one of the other
Speaker:things that I found out is
Speaker:in doing this work, every
Speaker:once in a while, you just can't
Speaker:go in there as the lottery
Speaker:attorney to help people, you need
Speaker:to bring your sidekick in.
Speaker:And that sidekick has
Speaker:to be someone that comes in as a
Speaker:litigator, ready to
Speaker:file what they need to file.
Speaker:And so you have to put that into
Speaker:place.
Speaker:And so I actually brought a
Speaker:litigation attorney with me
Speaker:because I started dealing with
Speaker:the attorney general's office who
Speaker:represents the lottery,
Speaker:that you with every state gambling
Speaker:and lottery is, is is
Speaker:run by the state
Speaker:attorney. So the, you know, the
Speaker:attorney general's office.
Speaker:So I started dealing with them and
Speaker:they were kind of pushing back a
Speaker:little bit like, hey,
Speaker:we know where you're going, but we
Speaker:don't think. And I'm like, oh, I
Speaker:don't care if you think, you
Speaker:know, I'm just looking at it as I'm
Speaker:looking at your rules and your rules
Speaker:allow for this.
Speaker:And so I created
Speaker:a group, and I came
Speaker:in with group rules like a club,
Speaker:and, and we gave it a name,
Speaker:and we put names
Speaker:down, and everyone signed it,
Speaker:and I walked into that office,
Speaker:and, you know.
Speaker:Well, actually, initially
Speaker:what happened is I went up to
Speaker:Michigan. I said, I we're ready to
Speaker:claim I'd like to come in today
Speaker:so we can make the claim.
Speaker:And I was told, well, you can't come
Speaker:in today.
Speaker:Well, we'll call back tomorrow.
Speaker:So the next day I woke up
Speaker:and called them. I was in Michigan,
Speaker:so I was just, you know, I'm not an
Speaker:hour and a half away.
Speaker:And so I just said, hey,
Speaker:you know, I called yesterday, I want
Speaker:to come in today to claim.
Speaker:And they said, well, you can't come
Speaker:into claim call tomorrow.
Speaker:And I said, well, why can't I come
Speaker:in to claim? And they go, because
Speaker:we're we're just not ready for you.
Speaker:And I go, well, you know, it's been
Speaker:three weeks. I want to claim this
Speaker:ticket.
Speaker:Well, no.
Speaker:And I think they knew where I was
Speaker:going and they were trying to
Speaker:postpone it, and,
Speaker:so they can deal with it.
Speaker:So then I said, listen,
Speaker:I'm going to be there tomorrow at
:00, and I want to come
:in there and claim the ticket.
:And I'm telling you right now,
:either I'm going to claim the ticket
:or I'm going to send the winner's
:home, and I'm going to call a press
:conference outside of your lottery
:office and call the people I know
:from NBC and ABC
:and have them there.
:And I'm going to tell the people
:that the state of Michigan does not
:want to pay the lottery winners.
:And, you know, of course, they
:said, no problem, we'll see you
:tomorrow at 10:00, blah, blah, blah.
:So, you know, I went there and,
:I brought I brought an attorney that
:was ready to file an administrative,
:you know, motion
:for, for this relief.
:And, so we created
:a club.
:We went there as the as
:the representative of the club.
:I signed all the paperwork, I did
:everything, and of course, they
:said, well, okay, but we need to
:have a picture.
:And I said, well, I'll take the
:picture. So I took a picture with
:the with the lottery
:advisor, you know, the head of the
:lottery at that time, he's since
:retired and moved on as a judge.
:And there's the two of us holding
:the check together.
:And when the when the picture came
:out, they removed them from the
:picture. So it's just me holding the
:check like this.
:And it was kind of really weird.
:Oh my gosh.
:You know what I'm line is,
:you know, the way we did it.
:We comply with their laws.
:They didn't. Like it.
:You know, it came
:to a push or shove.
:But the bottom line is, the clients
:were able to get these funds,
:and they're living their life, and
:they're so happy, and they
:they're enjoying life, and they're
:doing things for the community.
:In a silent way.
:To help out the community.
:They're in southeast Michigan and,
:and other places.
:And so it all worked out well,
:and I did I did the
:holding on the check and
:have done a couple of interviews on
:it, and, no one knows who the
:winners are, and that's a good
:thing. So.
:Yeah, that that seems that seems
:very wise.
:And on this show
:I've interviewed quite a few lottery
:winners and some
:of them, well couple anyway.
:You know, they've done interviews
:anonymously.
:So and I've also
:I offered people, you know, we can
:blur your face. We can disguise your
:voice completely respect that.
:Or if they don't want to do an
:interview, that's fine too.
:But, I respect
:that. But how do you stay anonymous?
:If you you mentioned
:it in California and Florida, but
:some states in the United States,
:they say that you cannot.
:So are there any states where that's
:just not an option, or do you think
:is there always a way or
:so.
:Some states make it very difficult,
:very hard. But as I always as
:I've said, you need to also find
:out from your clients,
:you know, a little bit about them.
:So, like, if I run into
:anyone that happened
:to be in law enforcement or
:something like that.
:Well, you know,
:I think you can have a really good
:reason for them to be,
:they will claim it anonymously
:because I had someone who
:was a prison guard, and, and
:he was and the state said we get
:to disclose.
:And I said, well, you disclose
:he's this guy's in trouble, you
:know, with what he does for a
:living. He's in trouble, his
:family's in trouble.
:And so, you know, we went to the
:attorney general's office.
:We talked about it, and they allowed
:it. They, you know, they allowed for
:it to happen. I another state that
:said, hey, you know,
:you win these, these
:dollars for life.
:But we were saying it's only 7
:million. Our state law says
:it has to be over 10 million before
:we allow the person to be anonymous.
:So since our lump sum amounts
:only 7 million, we get to identify
:who the winner is.
:So I walked in there with,
:three, three, reports
:from, you know,
:mathematicians that basically
:said that my client was in his
:mid 20s, that one
:$365,000
:a year for life, that the value of
:that was like 18 million.
:And so, you know, I went in there
:and said, it's not a $7 million
:win based on his life expectancy.
:It's, you know, 18.
:And they go, okay, well, you know,
:so you have to you have to
:you have to research.
:You have to look, I tell the
:clients, how much is your privacy
:worth? I mean, that's the question,
:you know, do you, do you want to
:give me more time?
:Do you want to give me a little bit
:extra funds so that we can do it
:this way? Or do you just want to go
:in and client that's that's your
:option. I you know, I can't
:I can't change it for you.
:But tell me what you want.
:That's very, very interesting.
:And for people that
:are watching this, perhaps
:a future lottery winner,
:what should you do if you win?
:A major lottery jackpot or even
:hundreds of thousands or 100,000
:or millions.
:What should you do?
:What are the steps?
:So, you know, every state
:lottery, office
:says selling the ticket.
:They'll even say, sign the ticket
:before you go home.
:You know, before the lottery
:drawing. Sign the tickets on the
:back of the ticket.
:Well, they do that because,
:you know, if you sign the back of
:the ticket in a lot of states,
:that's how you have to claim,
:because the tickets a bearer
:document and whoever fills
:out the claim form and estimates the
:ticket and, and they'll say,
:well, sorry.
:Yeah, I know you wanted to go talk
:to companies this, but, you know,
:that's not going to help you now
:because you signed the ticket.
:So I always tell people, do
:not sign the ticket.
:Okay.
:Am I rationale for that is,
:again, I want to know
:where this client
:believes they're going to be
:a year from now.
:Okay. As I said, I'm always this
:forward looking plan.
:So not just the claim.
:Where are you going to be a year
:from now? Who would you have helped
:out? You know, said brothers and
:sisters, as a children, you know
:who's part of this.
:So that way we can do the tax
:planning, the transfer
:without it being a gift and using
:your exemptions for
:better purposes, like for GST
:purposes, generation, skipping tax
:purposes rather than for
:just transferring over to a family
:member. So I want
:the back of the ticket to be a
:canvas.
:And I'm the painter, I am
:Michelangelo, and I want
:to go to that canvas, and I want to
:have a plain canvas that I could
:paint this picture of where the
:client wants to be.
:So if someone.
:Signed the ticket.
:It's real hard to paint over that.
:Okay, so. So I like to take it to
:be blank.
:I tell the client, you know, make
:a copy of the ticket for the front
:in the back. So that's all I would
:need to do my work and then
:take a selfie with the ticket.
:Hold it right next to you, take a
:selfie and say, okay, here's my
:face. On this day, I have this
:ticket, and here are the numbers.
:I can read them and then put the
:ticket in the safest place.
:You know, because we
:will not need the ticket until the
:day of the court.
:And on those days, you
:know, in most cases, I
:don't travel up with the client
:because they, they, you know, they
:kind of like the idea of, of, hey,
:I know this guy.
:I know he's my attorney, but I
:feel more comfortable driving up
:separately or flying, whatever
:we do, and we'll
:meet at a location someplace, some
:public location where people
:are expecting us to meet.
:And at that point in time,
:you know, I'll tell the client,
:okay.
:Let's get into my vehicle.
:My vehicle's a rental vehicle.
:If anyone takes the license plate,
:they're not going to know it.
:So leave your vehicle here.
:Get in here. You got the ticket?
:You got your driver's license.
:We'll go to the office.
:And, you know, that's when we'll
:we'll do the claim.
:So that way, they're walking in with
:me. I always tell them,
:I know COVID's over.
:Good time to still wear a hat.
:Good times. Still wear sunglasses.
:And no reason why you can't wear a
:mask. Because, you know,
:you may still be worried about
:Covid. So, you know, let's mask
:up. Let's go in so no one can take
:your picture. I've had people even
:wear some wigs because once they get
:in there, they just have to show
:their I.D. and they can take this
:stuff off for one minute, put it
:back on.
:I mean, today's day and age,
:it's so easy to walk through an
:office and go wash and take a
:picture of someone. So, you know
:you're young enough to be looking at
:someone. So?
:So I always tell them, you know, do
:it this way.
:We'll go in.
:We'll do the claim.
:We have a plan in place.
:We'll follow the plan.
:We'll do the claim.
:And then once we've done that claim.
:And that's why I said, don't sign
:the back of a ticket. Let's, let's.
:And many times I see the ticket for
:the first time the day of
:the flight. And that's when I put
:whatever we need to put on the back
:of the ticket. At that moment when
:we're inside the lottery office,
:because I don't want to be
:responsible for this ticket out of
:time. And so, you know, after
:the claims are with them, we sit
:down, say, okay, claims over
:with, you don't have to worry about
:it. Everything's off your shoulders.
:You can now breathe.
:You're anonymous.
:Now, let's start talking about the
:first option of many
:times. You got 60 days
:to do the lump sum or annuity.
:Let's make sure that we're clear on
:that. Now that the ticket has been
:transferred in, you've had a little
:bit more time to think about it.
:Let's go over the reasons why we
:want one or the other.
:Let's do that.
:Let's make sure we have the bank
:account set up so the money can be
:transferred in properly, because
:that might take a day or two.
:Let's get that done.
:And then let's start thinking about,
:you know, the early uses of the
:money, if anything.
:You know what?
:What are we going to use the money
:for?
:You know, immediately or,
:or where should we be
:with our investments?
:Let's slowly get into the stock
:market. You don't want to say, hey,
:I got 100 million.
:I'm getting in today.
:100 million is going in on on April
:11th. Now, you want to
:slowly get in and you want to put
:a couple of thousand dollars in each
:week, get into the market in a slow,
:slow, methodical way.
:Follow the plan.
:You know, all this stuff.
:So the only thing I ask people right
:now is, hey, after you call
:me and say, I need your help,
:I'll just ask for a copy of the
:front of the ticket so I can verify
:that they actually have a winning
:ticket, because that's happened to
:me a couple times.
:The first time it was a couple
:that thought, you know, they thought
:they had a winning ticket.
:And, you know, I, I ruined the
:vacation because,
:you know, even on the golf course, I
:was sending emails and text back and
:forth between my office and that,
:on a vacation.
:And I get back to the office
:and I contacted the Florida Lottery
:and I said, hey, I'm representing
:the clients at one mega I take.
:It's already been claimed.
:And so I go, no, no, no.
:And so I finally asked him,
:I said, hey, can you bring the
:ticket in? They came in.
:And what they had was
:it was the results of the,
:of the, of the day before
:they went to the 7-Eleven and
:someone said, hey, here's the
:winning numbers. And they gave him,
:I gave him the ticket and they
:thought that was their ticket.
:So on their numbers matched.
:And so they actually thought they
:had a winning ticket. They didn't
:know I felt so bad because,
:you know, they thought they had won.
:It was a young family.
:And, you know, I spent a bunch of
:time, I just said, hey, listen, you
:know, I can't charge you.
:You know, I feel so bad
:for you. So that's happened.
:Those are that's one of the worst
:stories ever. But, that's why
:I asked for a copy of the ticket
:today before I spend a lot of time.
:That would be heartbreaking.
:That would be heartbreaking.
:No.
:You know, you know, worse
:than that, believe it or not, is I
:had a couple of guys in
:in the state of Arizona that
:religiously they played the
:lottery every Friday night.
:You know, it was their it was their
:plan.
:They would go bowling.
:They were bowling partners.
:They they went bowling.
:They had a couple beers that pizza.
:And they would get their lottery
:tickets, which were for the next
:week, which at that time for
:Powerball was it was Saturday
:night and Wednesday night, Saturday
:and Wednesday.
:So they had the same numbers.
:They always bought it.
:Here's my ticket for Saturday and
:here's my ticket for for Wednesday.
:So they bought these same numbers.
:And of course what fate what
:happened is those same numbers
:that they always played for all
:these years.
:Powerball came out with a
:Monday drawing for the first time a
:little over a year ago, and of
:course, they didn't know about it.
:It wasn't really advertised, so they
:didn't buy a ticket for Monday.
:They'd spotted for Saturday and then
:and then Wednesday.
:And of course, their numbers came
:in, all six of them with
:the Powerball.
:It would have been a couple hundred
:million.
:And, you know, I had to tell them
:I go. That's the saddest thing I've
:ever heard, but there's nothing we
:can do about it. So you can even
:buy a ticket for Monday night.
:So you mentioned a couple these
:heartbreaking stories.
:How two people that actually do win
:big, how do they react
:when you meet them?
:Like if you meet them?
:I don't know if you meet them at a
:hotel or how do people react
:when they first meet
:you and you fly to their location to
:read go.
:All a little bit different.
:I had a client that,
:I flew up, talk
:to them.
:It was only like a, I think a 3 or
:$4 million when only,
:everyone would take that.
:But, you know, one of their flew
:up there the day before,
:got up in the morning, was
:supposed to meet him at 10:00.
:They showed up right at 10:00.
:Met him in the lobby.
:First time I physically met them.
:We talked on the phone, saw a couple
:zoom meetings. But first of all, I
:physically met him, and I said, hey,
:this particular state,
:you don't have to go with me.
:I can do it by myself.
:I just need your information.
:So they gave me their IDs.
:They gave me this ticket, which was
:unsigned on the back.
:I mean, 3 or $4 million ticket,
:unsigned. Bare document gave it
:to me, and I just said,
:okay, stay right here.
:And I said, I'll tell you what.
:I want you to follow the whole thing
:without being there.
:So I gave him the other phone that
:I have, and, and we,
:we FaceTimed.
:So they were holding on to this
:phone. I walked out, walked
:couple blocks to lottery office,
:walked in, signed in, went up
:to the office, did the claim
:for them while they were watching me
:on the phone.
:Technically I could have just given
:them a phone and and walked off
:and and gone and claimed that
:even though attorneys by
:nature are supposed to be trusted
:professionals.
:And so I put the clients first.
:Unfortunately, it's been a lot of
:bad people that have done things
:that should have done things.
:Hmhm do they
:adjust to their new reality?
:Okay. I mean, as far as you know.
:It's tough, you know, because they
:they, as
:one of them said to me, Curt,
:I'm learning how to be
:rich. I'm just learning.
:You know, I was comfortable before
:I was retired.
:I had everything I needed in
:retirement.
:And then all of a sudden, I got this
:big boost.
:And, you know, I
:never joined an elite
:country club, even though I like,
:I like playing golf.
:So this particular person
:got two memberships, you know, has
:a membership in the every day blue
:collar, country club.
:And then he's got one at this elite
:place.
:And when his friends come in town,
:he goes and places the blue collar
:one. You know, if if it's just
:him or a special guest, he'll
:go to the elite one and go play.
:Yeah. He doesn't care that he pays
:$30,000 a month in fees
:because it doesn't mean anything to
:him.
:Yeah. If we'll go someplace to
:a resort where you have to
:have a caddy. I remember the first
:time we went to a place where it was
:caddies only, and so
:we got done with the round, you
:know, I reached into my pocket, got
:a couple hundred dollar bills out
:and gave the county hills.
:Hey, what are you doing?
:And I go, well, tip in the county.
:Well, how much did you do that?
:And I go, don't worry about it.
:Took care of it for both of us.
:Well, I want to know how much you
:tip them, because, you know, I want
:to know. So I told him so.
:Then he reaches into his pocket and
:gives the caddy another couple
:hundred dollars. And I'm like, God,
:you didn't have to do that.
:And he goes, well, I wanted to.
:And so he goes, you know, the money
:doesn't mean anything to me.
:I want to help out. So so, you
:know, the county was overjoyed
:because he had no idea what was
:going on.
:You know, you go out to dinner and,
:you know, he goes, hey, you know
:wine better than I do.
:You order a bottle of wine.
:So I go, okay, so I order a
:$300 bottle of wine.
:So then the question was, well,
:what do I tip for a $300 bottle?
:One, I never I never bought a bottle
:of wine over $50 and,
:you know, $50.
:I'll pay this much in tip, but
:what's the appropriate?
:I don't want to be I don't want to
:be too much.
:Then again, I don't want to be too
:little. So, you know, they learn,
:you know, and like with a lot of
:clients that when these big dollar
:amounts, you know, the first thing
:that the first thing I
:suggest to them is now they're able
:to do what's called concierge
:medicine. So instead
:of waiting at a doctor's office, you
:pay a fee every year.
:It's it's like maybe
:$5,000 a year.
:I think it's been as high as 7000.
:Some as low as 3000.
:How would you pay this fee?
:And this doctor's available for you
:24 seven.
:And so if you're not feeling good,
:you can go into their office or
:you can call them on the phone, zoom
:and tell them what's going on.
:Yeah. And what they'll do is they'll
:put a box together for you.
:And this box has all these different
:medications and things, and they'll
:tell you, hey, based on how you're
:feeling and what you tell me, you
:may have Covid.
:So in the box there
:is a blue box.
:And in the blue box there's these
:pills. And so I want you to take
:two of these and then call me
:tomorrow. You know so so they
:give them certain medications
:that that's prepackaged,
:that they tell them what to do and
:they can call up whenever they want.
:So the concierge medicine is really
:big. You know, they'll still get
:their insurance policy, but they
:have a concierge doctor that will
:talk to them 24 seven.
:You have to wait in line.
:You don't have to wait a week to get
:in to see them. It's immediate.
:So that's number one.
:Number two. Big thing is, is
:obviously getting the security for
:their health in place.
:So that way, whether they're at that
:house or we buy a new house for
:buying a new house, I'll set it up
:in a land trust so no one will know
:who owns the house, and we'll do it
:that way. So, yeah, give them some
:privacy.
:So, you know, again,
:they'll they still may own their own
:house. Don't just say I'm going on a
:trip. I'm going on vacation, and
:they'll go to their other house, you
:know, for the summer, for the
:winter, whatever it is.
:You know, the next thing I'll talk
:to them about is. Hey, you have
:enough money here that I know
:you're flying first class, and
:that's great.
:Well, how about flying Netjets?
:How about flying?
:You know, you
:know, one of these private,
:companies where you just go
:to your local airport, you're on the
:plane and you're going, I mean, you
:know, you don't have to wait.
:You know, you can do your own thing.
:And so a lot of them will do that,
:because what I do is after
:the first year or two, second year,
:I get the investment first and say,
:okay, what exactly
:was our income?
:What what was the dividends and
:interest? What did we earn.
:And give me that number.
:So we get that number and then I'll
:say, what do we spend.
:You know, take all their, all their,
:you know, all their expenses on
:their credit card.
:What was expense?
:Well, this number.
:So you made 12.
:You spent five.
:That means you got $7 million,
:that you're not even touching the
:principal anymore. That we can use
:for whatever you want to use it.
:Whether it's making gifts to people,
:whether it's going to charity,
:whether it's, whatever you want to
:do, you know,
:spend, you know, if you don't spend
:your kids. Well, so let's, let's do
:some let's take a trip.
:Let's enjoy life while you can.
:You know, with these people that,
:that when lots of money,
:they start saying, well, I'm going
:to do this charitable gift plan.
:And so they want to talk about a
:foundation and I'll go,
:well, you know, foundations are
:nice, I do them, I set them up for
:people. But a foundation requires
:work, you know, requires employees.
:It requires people doing this.
:Are you going to do this?
:No. I'm retired.
:I'm not doing it well.
:Are your kids going to do it?
:I don't think they're qualified.
:Okay, well, if they're not going to
:do it, then why are we doing a
:foundation?
:Why not set up a a donor
:advised fund at a community
:where you have all your stocks
:that are, you know, increased in
:value instead of selling them
:and having capital gains, just
:transfer a stock holding to your
:donor advised fund so you get the
:dollar for dollar, deduction.
:And then you tell the donor, advised
:one to pay this to
:make a distribution to this charity,
:but do it anonymously so someone
:doesn't even know where it came
:from. So all you have to do
:is make a phone call, call me, and
:I'll do it for you.
:You know. So.
:You know, again, it's it's
:helping these people accomplish
:their goals and and
:doing so in a private,
:anonymous manner, because I'm
:convinced that the
:way to be successful
:in life, after winning the lottery
:and to not having any issues
:is to stay anonymous.
:If if it gets out that you won,
:there's going to be so many
:pressures on you from family,
:from friends, from people
:that just know of you, that
:want to talk to you, that want to
:make a request. I get requests all
:the time from my clients for for
:donations, you know?
:I'm a veteran.
:I lost my job.
:I got a family.
:I need some help.
:I need I need someone to put money
:into my my business.
:You know, can you get one of your
:clients to to give me $10
:million or.
:I'm sorry, $10,000 so I can,
:you know, keep my business afloat?
:You know, it's hard to help people.
:And I've gotten messages from
:clients, from from
:people that are trying to meet
:with my clients that say,
:if I don't get this money, I'm going
:to kill myself.
:You know, I mean, how do you say no
:to those people? It's hard, but you
:have to. And so the the best
:way to do it is to not even let them
:know that you exist.
:And people do come
:out of the woodwork for
:some lottery winners.
:But if you claim it anonymously,
:do they, to your knowledge, do they
:still some people at least deal
:with, that with
:friends or family?
:If the word gets around
:or how do they does it change
:relationships or do you?
:You know, obviously obviously you
:have to be careful who you tell and
:how you tell. You know, there's some
:cases out there where, you know,
:there were some divorces and,
:and so, you know, the,
:the, you know, to protect
:the child, the family
:said that they, that they needed
:to tell the mother of the child who
:was divorcing their son
:that, that there was money,
:that they were going to set up.
:And so they, the the mother signed
:a non-disclosure agreement.
:And then, of course, she tell
:someone in her family, you tell
:someone else, you
:know, turns into litigation.
:You know, all you can do is if you
:tell someone trying to get
:a non-disclosure agreement put in
:place, at least you have something
:to hang your hat on at that time,
:there's always a chance that it gets
:up. And, so that's
:why you have to have these other,
:other, like, side
:road plants just in case, have that
:burner phone have have things
:available so that if you have to
:leave, you know, you can leave
:quickly.
:You know, whatever, whatever's
:necessary. Sometimes, you know,
:that's like plans, but still it
:happens and you need to leave the
:area.
:That that makes sense and do
:quite a few lottery winners move,
:you know, after they win.
:Well, I try to tell them not to,
:because that would bring because,
:you know, if it says,
:you know, someone in
:in, you know, this, this city,
:won the lottery and this little town
:won the lottery, and everyone's
:looking around for, you know, who
:was that? Who got the new car, who
:got this? You know, if all of a
:sudden you pack up and leave, you
:know, that's a different story.
:But if you keep your house
:and you just go out, you said, hey,
:listen, I've retired.
:I'm gonna spend half the year here,
:and half the people understand that.
:You know, there was a old
:movie a long time ago.
:And it was humorous.
:It was called Wacky Ned Devine,
:and it was, about winning
:the, the Irish Sweepstakes.
:And so these two guys,
:we're trying to find out who
:who was the person that won
:the little town.
:And so they threw a party,
:and then they were analyzing who
:didn't show up to the party,
:or what changed them in the little
:town and found out it was a guy
:who never showed up to anything
:after they started this whole
:process.
:And they went to his house and
:he was in front of the TV in his
:chair holding the ticket.
:And the TV was all or, you know,
:was off base, or they were
:scratching.
:And he realized that they realized
:he had a heart attack watching,
:watching the numbers.
:And so then they took the the ticket
:and they tried to pretend they
:were him to claim the money.
:So, it's a funny, funny show
:to watch. But again,
:that's what people do.
:People in small towns
:want to know who was it?
:That one in our small little town,
:you know, you they have these press
:releases now with these big dollar
:amounts. You see them.
:And right next thing, the whole
:lottery office is there at this
:little grocery store, this little
:7-Eleven or gas station,
:and they're doing this big party,
:and they give $100,000 check to the
:owner of the station or the grocery
:store. You gotta match that stuff
:up, because we've had some
:litigation in that area on
:California where, you know,
:the times were not correct,
:near both people going to the store,
:both people claiming to own it, and
:the ticket gets owned by the one
:person. So, you know,
:it's it's crazy.
:You know, money makes people funny.
:I can't think of a better person to
:win sometimes than some of my
:clients that have won in listening
:to. Their stories, and
:their relationships, people
:who were.
:Childhood sweethearts,
:that, you know, were not married
:before.
:And now the money allows them to get
:married because, you know, they were
:they were separate.
:They were childhood sweethearts, but
:one got married somewhere else and
:got divorced and now is together.
:But they're getting alimony so they
:can't get married.
:But now they're able to go get
:married because they all morning.
:Money doesn't mean anything to them
:because they got this lottery money.
:So some of these stories that you
:you hear about and you
:become part of their family, you're
:just so happy for it.
:And, and so, yeah,
:I got some of that. I got some of
:the best clients, if not the best
:clients in the whole world when I
:look at it.
:And, so I'm happy to do what I do
:for a living.
:That's wonderful.
:And what a unique niche.
:You have you
:mentioned that some of the larger
:clients, that some
:of them feels like family,
:that you're really close to them.
:Do you find that people
:have a difficult time trusting
:attorneys? Because on this
:podcast, we get comments
:from some people that
:are skeptical because
:they've never, you know, had that
:kind of money and they don't know
:what to do with it. And they see the
:horror stories and media.
:So how do you find
:what do you tell someone that's
:skeptical of having someone help
:them behind the scenes, or to find
:the right person?
:You know, it used to be
:if you were a CPA, you were held to
:this highest standard in the world.
:And then we went through a couple of
:years there in the 80s
:where, you know, CPAs
:were doctoring books and,
:you know, so CPAs fell
:and then, you know, lawyers maybe
:got a step up. But, you know,
:I tell people you should do your due
:diligence. First of all, yeah, you
:shouldn't just be hiring me just
:because, you know, you
:know, I'm out there, because there's
:a lot of attorneys out there.
:Again, the question is, who's got
:the experience?
:Yeah. I tell people, I would love
:for you to talk to some of my
:clients. The problem is no
:one knows who my clients are, and
:that's by design.
:So if you go to my website
:and you look at it,
:it'll say, if you want to look at
:past winners, you know, click here.
:And you go to that and it says,
:you know, they're not disclosed.
:Sorry. But you know, that's all
:by by intentional,
:process on my part.
:You know, there's a couple of bad
:eggs all the time.
:There was a guy in New York that
:did, I believe,
:in his career.
:He probably did some really good
:things for clients.
:And then the problem was, he
:stepped out of being a lawyer, and
:he said, hey, I'm watching
:these financial people.
:And when they come in, they're
:making 20, $30,000
:a month, you know, handling the
:investments. I can do that.
:I can do better for the clients.
:So he got involved in in an
:area that was outside of his
:training.
:And when he did that, he got
:involved with organized crime.
:And, you know, the premise was
:I could help this little lady
:get 20% return on her
:million on $1 billion.
:Well, a little lady does
:not need a 20% return on $1
:billion. You know, she couldn't even
:spend $1 billion if she wanted to,
:you know? So stay in your lane,
:you know, do what you do best.
:You know, I just happen to have the
:background as a CPA and
:an attorney and a trust in the
:state's attorney and board
:certification, where
:I have lots of things to lose.
:So all those disciplines come
:together to keep that circle so
:small during the initial stages that
:I don't need anyone else to help me.
:If there's someone there that brings
:me in, sure, I'll work with them.
:But I want to be in control of
:everything because I know what to do
:with the individual states.
:Like, I got a call in Pennsylvania
:one time for $500 million,
:win.
:And it was from a law firm,
:and they said, hey, we want to reach
:out to you. And I go, okay, so
:we are we have a zoom meeting with
:the client and the client's CPA.
:And, you know, I said, well,
:this is what I would suggest in
:Pennsylvania based on their law.
:And the CPA stood up and goes,
:that's not going to work, because,
:you know, you can't claim in a trust
:disclosing the trust.
:As I said, yeah, I read that and
:that's fine. But it's not just going
:to be your typical trust.
:It's going to be a trust with some
:lawyers in it with LLCs.
:And I go as members and I go,
:I go, we're going to we're going to
:mix it up. They're not going to
:know. We walked, we go into
:the office over there.
:Eventually the attorney and myself
:walk in. The client didn't even go
:and he stayed out in the car.
:We went in, took care of business,
:came out and, and,
:you know, gave the client the check.
:And he was happy as could be.
:He didn't even have to walk inside.
:We did all the work for him.
:And, you know, that CPA looked
:at me and said, never thought you
:could do that. And I go, well, you
:know, that's why everyone brings me
:in. So whether I'm called
:by the client to do this stuff or
:whether it's another law firm that
:brings me in, I'm okay.
:As long as we can take care of that
:client. That's all I'm interested
:in. I don't care if there's someone
:else there with me.
:If that's what. That's what the
:client wants. If the client wants
:their friend as the attorney to walk
:in with me or they're professional,
:I'm good with that.
:It's not about an ego.
:It's about helping.
:And doing the right thing for them.
:And, you know, I'm just
:I'm just happy to have the client
:and have the experience.
:And, so, you know, it's
:it's, everyone's
:a little bit different.
:Their methodology is different, as I
:said, that attorney.
:You know, I know he was doing good
:work, but he got involved with the
:wrong people, and and you
:can't cross that line.
:And, you know, there's a lot of
:attorneys out there that do this
:work. Unfortunately, a lot of them
:are like personal injury attorneys.
:So they're looking at it as
:like an injury, and it's not
:it's it's sudden wealth,
:but sudden wealth through
:through a transaction
:that there some tax and you have to
:put in, you know, the planning
:with future generations
:to make sure that you we all have
:this exemption out there right now
:worth $13 million.
:You know, if we use that $13
:million properly, $13 million
:can be used for children and
:grandchildren. So there's no second
:tax.
:And so you want the right attorney
:that has the experience to help you
:with the right, you know, all these
:disciplines that need to be done,
:all these issues that need to be
:dealt with.
:In in that 13 million
:exemption.
:How does that mean you
:can literally give away.
:So not taxed on 13 million.
:So back in the early mid
:80s, 1980s
:the exemption amount at that time
:was $600,000.
:And the first came out.
:Then after a couple of years, well,
:I was in law school and all that, it
:increased a little bit each year and
:following going up to about $1
:million in 1990, whatever it was.
:And then it it
:suddenly started going together,
:started increasing a little bit
:more, and it got to,
:$5 million.
:And then in one year, 2010,
:which coincidentally, was the year
:that Steinbrenner passed away, the
:owner of the Yankees, there was no
:estate gift or transfer tax.
:So it was an unlimited amount of a
:wealth that you could transfer.
:So when Mr. Steinbrenner died,
:he transferred the whole Yankees
:organization to his family, and
:there was no transfer tax unlimited.
:Well, right after that, the
:exemption came back into place at $5
:million. And it was there for a
:little bit of time.
:And then, you know,
:I don't want to get politically
:here, but when Trump took office, he
:doubled all the exemptions.
:So they went up to to $10 million,
:and then they were still increased
:for inflation. So right now, today
:in 2024, it's a little
:over $13 million that any one of
:us can give away without any
:transfer tax.
:No gift tax, no no death
:tax if we die.
:So we have the ability to leave 13
:million.
:What's going to happen, though,
:is in another year, in order for
:Congress to pay for this stuff, they
:have to put a sunset provision.
:And so at the end of 2025,
:it's going to go back down to $5
:million. So but right now it's 13.
:So you have 13 million
:I have 13 million.
:And we can use it.
:But if we use it up, but by making
:a gift to a family member then
:we've used it. So I would rather
:have that family member be part
:of the winning group.
:Okay. Like the group
:ticket or part of the trust
:part of the LLC holding the
:fractional interest so they don't
:have. So dad can say, hey,
:I want to take care of my, my, my
:four kids.
:So dad claims the ticket and
:he's got 60% in
:each one of his four kids each get
:10% each.
:So that's 100%.
:So we filed the claim that
:way. They had 60 each
:kid 10%, and we go in.
:So now the kids pay their tax on
:their 10% and then they
:since tax on the 60%.
:But dad now still has the whole 13
:million that he can use.
:So instead of using it to transfer
:to his kids, he can help out a
:brother.
:He can use up.
:He can do some generation skipping
:planning for his grandchildren,
:great grandchildren.
:So there's no second tax on it.
:So there's a lot of a lot of
:planning that goes into this
:that we want to take advantage of.
:And that's why I keep saying I
:use a forward looking method
:for doing this.
:And this is where a lot of
:attorneys, they're just doing it for
:the clay.
:And you know, that's fine.
:But their clients afterwards,
:like I had a client.
:Well, it turned out it wasn't my
:client.
:I met with the person.
:I met with him in my office.
:We talked and I made several
:suggestions to them, and they said,
:okay, I'll get back to you.
:And then they call me and said,
:well, we decided to go with this big
:law firm, and they're planning.
:And they claimed the ticket in a
:and a Delaware LLC.
:And I said, well, I call
:the client up. I go, listen, I saw
:that you claim the ticket and
:Delaware LLC.
:Congratulations, I said, however,
:I never would have used the Delaware
:LLC, and we talked about
:it at the meeting. And I want you to
:know that we discussed it and I said
:I didn't like it, even though you
:like the concept of hearing
:about a Delaware LLC or a Wyoming
:LLC.
:Because you thought that that gave
:you a little bit more protection,
:but you created an entity
:that has that's based in
:a state that. US income taxes.
:Delaware.
:So when you claimed in Florida,
:you know there's no Florida tax.
:But since it's a Delaware entity
:doing business in Florida has to pay
:Delaware tax.
:So subjected this big ticket
:to Delaware income tax.
:I just want you to be aware of it.
:And so you probably
:voluntarily paid $30
:million for no reason.
:You know, but I'm just telling you,
:I never would have done that.
:And I want to make sure, you know,
:that I didn't discuss that with you
:at the time.
:And I told you not to do it that
:way. And, if you need
:help in future, give me a call, you
:know, so we'll see what happens
:there.
:For people that are watching this or
:listening to this, that play the
:lottery. We have some people that
:play in what are called pools,
:groups of people that actually play.
:So do you have
:should they have rules or
:should they have something
:decided upon?
:Like do they think?
:I always tell people when they talk
:about a lottery pool.
:Pools are fun.
:I mean, you can have a good time at
:a pool, but a pool always has a deep
:end. And in the deep end there's
:risk. And so,
:you know, you gotta look at a
:lottery pool being the same thing.
:So the concern I always
:have a lottery pools is,
:is what if someone got left out and
:there's there are.
:Several cases out there, you can
:research where there was always
:someone that got left out, and so
:they end up filing an objection
:filed with the state and the states.
:I say, wait a minute until this gets
:resolved. We're not paying anyone
:because we don't know who we're
:supposed to be paying.
:So it drags on and on
:and on, and eventually they
:end up, you know, after after
:hard feelings and things
:being said, they eventually work
:the person into the agreement and
:give them something.
:But everyone, everyone
:had to wait a long time for it.
:The problem that I have is, is
:people don't do the pools the right
:way. So there should be
:a set of rules.
:And the first thing is, is that
:if we're all putting money in.
:If you're not there.
:Do you have a surrogate that has the
:responsibility to put money in for
:you because you know or
:you're not there? So, you know,
:let's say everyone put in 20 bucks
:and there's, you know, five
:people and then all put in 20 bucks,
:we have a hundred bucks.
:So we go to the store and we buy
:$100 with lottery tickets.
:And, you know, a couple of them
:won a little bit of money.
:We didn't win the jackpot.
:But now we have, we have we
:have $18 of winnings.
:So what happens at $18, $18?
:I could go out to everyone so they
:all get their equal share.
:Why did you continue to buy tickets
:with at $18 and everyone else puts
:in $20 again, and
:then everyone puts in $20 again?
:No, you got $36 and $40.
:And what happens to this?
:Is it a new lottery pool every time
:you do this? Or is it different?
:If someone doesn't show up, are they
:included automatically?
:Is there a surrogate that puts in
:for them?
:What if they if they were sick or
:they were disabled for a while and
:they were out of the office for a
:couple of weeks on vacation
:and the surrogate forgot to put it,
:you know, so there's so
:many. I just don't like lottery
:pools. But if you're going to do it,
:make sure it's in writing.
:Make sure everyone has a copy of the
:ticket ahead of time so that,
:you know, because there was a case
:as well where a lady
:lady bought tickets for the group
:like she was supposed to when she
:bought her own tickets.
:And then there was a
:drawing and she said,
:hey, one of the tickets won, she
:said. But it wasn't part of the
:group's tickets. It was my ticket.
:And you know, no one knew.
:She went out, bought tickets for
:herself, you know, and you
:need to make sure everyone has a
:copy of the ticket and
:they're all in.
:And, you know, I just don't like
:pools for that reason.
:They have worked for some people.
:But again, it's really a concern
:as to if it goes on
:and on and on.
:What do you do with that money
:that's been one. Is it been
:disseminated or is it buying
:more tickets?
:And you have to have a rule that
:says if you're not physically
:in and you didn't you didn't do
:something by 5:00 that day,
:you're out, you know.
:So it's very clear.
:Yeah, that that
:makes complete sense.
:And, you know, we see these
:major lottery jackpots.
:Most people will wait until,
:you know, weeks or months, sometimes
:right before the deadline to claim
:the prize.
:But once in a while, and there was
:just one in Oregon once
:in a while, it happens very quickly,
:within just a couple of days
:where someone will go into the
:lottery office right away with the
:winning ticket, even if it's worth
:hundreds of millions potentially.
:So is that theoretically
:time to get your ducks in a row, or
:does it take.
:What are your thoughts on that?
:I think you know, to
:if you win $1 million, you can go in
:right away. It's not a big deal.
:You win $100 million or $1 billion.
:I really think to
:do it the right way,
:it takes at least two weeks.
:Because you really have to be
:talking to the client again,
:find out where they're going to be.
:Unless they live in this little
:cocoon by themselves.
:They don't have any friends.
:They don't have any family.
:You know, you really have
:to take a look at the state law,
:find out what you can and can't do.
:Talk to the person about friends and
:family and who they would want to
:help. Again, they still have $13
:million that they could have, that
:they could have helped someone out
:with who they want to do it with
:their own tax dollars.
:What do they want to do it by
:spreading this wealth over family
:members. So,
:anyone that goes in that quickly,
:what that tells me is that
:they're they're just not a good
:planner.
:And if they're going to do that that
:quickly, they're probably going to
:be taken advantage of at some time
:down the road because they're not
:putting any time or effort into
:into the process.
:And if you don't plan,
:appropriately, like
:like I had a client, that one,
:he called me up and said, hey, I
:want a scratch off.
:I go, great, how much is going to
:cost? 5 million.
:I go, that's fantastic.
:Congratulations.
:He calls me like December,
:December 7th or something like that.
:And I go, okay.
:I go, I go, when
:do you want to go? And he goes,
:well, he does like to get up there
:as soon as possible and go, oh,
:that's a good idea. And he goes,
:why? And I said, I'd rather go
:in January rather than now because
:the scratch off no one knows when to
:scratch it off became winter.
:Why would you want to pay your
:income taxes so quickly when
:you do it a couple weeks later, and
:you got the use of the money for the
:whole year before you, before you
:pay the taxes, he goes, oh, that's a
:great idea. I never thought about
:it. So, you know, little things
:like that. Just as to timing,
:you want the right person there and
:you want to have a game plan and you
:want to follow the game plan.
:We are here with Kurt Panouses.
:Kurt, where can people find you
:if they want to,
:contact you about a future lottery
:win or learn more about you
:physically?
:I'm in Florida.
:My my long term wall practice
:here as a board certified Wills
:trust. The state's attorney is
:Kurt@Panouseslaw.com.
:It's my last name
:Panouses law.com,
:but I also am shifting over to
:just being this lottery lawyer
:CPA.
:So I have a second and
:I'm kind of using it more and more.
:It's called Kurt
:Kurt@lotterylawyerCPA
:all one word lotterylawyercpa.com.
:And my phone number for lottery
:clients is area code (321) 676-3733.
:That's (321) 676-3733.
:That phone goes right here.
:I'm the only one that gets it.
:This is all I communicate with those
:clients afterwards.
:And I'll get them to send me
:photos of the ticket.
:And we do everything, like this way.
:Set up a couple zoom calls.
:Give me a couple weeks.
:We're ready to go.
:I drop everything and we go, and.
:And, you know, I tell the clients
:when we. When we do this, this
:should be a fun experience.
:This should be like going to Disney
:World. Go to do the climb.
:You should have fun.
:Once we do this and you turn over
:that ticket all the way, it's going
:to be off your shoulders.
:You'll be able to breathe.
:You'll be able to sleep at night.
:Just let's do it the right way.
:So.
:Yeah, I, as I said, I enjoy doing
:this work.
:I love the clients.
:They're happy no one died.
:You know, you get paid right away,
:so it's always good.
:Yeah, they're happy to pay.
:And so, it's it's a great,
:great niche that carved out and,
:and, and it's a fun niche
:as well at same time.
:Absolutely, absolutely.
:And you were surrounded by so many
:winners.
:For anyone that is playing
:the lottery, that is listening or
:watching to this today, what do you
:have any advice for
:lottery winners that are hoping
:to win?
:Well, you know the
:the problem with play the lottery
:is. Is it allows people
:to dream, but
:it's such a small chance of winning
:that, you know, people sometimes get
:their dreams get shattered.
:I love the fact that the lottery is
:out there because it allows people
:to to to dream and hope
:and and be thinking about
:stuff. Just don't overspend
:what you should be doing.
:You know, especially when the
:lottery gets with bigger.
:Yeah, you can buy more
:tickets, but it doesn't really
:increase your chances, you know?
:So either it's going to hit or it's
:not going to hit.
:You know, there's no there's
:no difference between quick picks
:and picking your own numbers.
:Although I did have a client that
:had won a couple times and,
:you know, he played a certain game
:and he kept picking his numbers and,
:you know, he won, but he, he
:he was spending $75,000
:a year buying lottery tickets.
:He said, I go, I go, that's
:a lot of money. And he goes, well,
:I'm not married, don't have any
:kids.
:I don't have any devices, I don't
:drink, I don't do drugs.
:You know, this is my this is my fun
:time. And I go, okay, I understand
:it. But $75,000
:is a lot of money to be spending.
:So don't overspend.
:Do it with responsibility.
:And, and if you happen to win,
:you know, just stay yourself.
:Don't don't change.
:You know, keep that circle
:as small as possible.
:People that know get the right group
:behind you or have someone that
:knows how to put the group there.
:And just.
:Yeah, try not to to
:talk about it, because that's how
:you're going to get in trouble.
:And be a target.
:Just play within your means.
:Basically.
:That sounds very wise.
:And it only takes one ticket for
:a chance to win, as cliche
:as that is, it's true.
:And you can never win unless you buy
:a ticket too, I found out, so.
:That's right. That's right.
:Curt Panas, thank you
:so much for your time today.
:Is there anything else that you
:wanted to say today that I just
:don't know enough to ask, or that
:you just wanted to say today?
:You know, you know,
:again, the process.
:You know, keep the circle small.
:Don't sign the back of the ticket.
:You know, get good quality people to
:help you, get a support staff
:in there to help you as well.
:And and make this, this,
:this decision about going to
:the lottery that day.
:Make sure it's planned out
:and that it's a fun day for you
:because, you know, it should be fun,
:should be a day that you
:enjoyed.
:And make sure that you still
:do this in a, in an environment
:where you're protected, covered up,
:whatever you need to do.
:So that no one could find out who
:you are.
:It's all part of the planning
:process. Get an experienced person
:to help you and enjoy the
:experience. It should be a lot of
:fun.
:Well, anything is possible.
:Thank you so much for your time
:today.
:I greatly, greatly appreciate it.
:We will link to your websites in the
:description of this video.
:If you're watching on YouTube or in
:the show notes of the audio,
:podcast. But Kurt Panouses.
:He is a beacon of wisdom
:and very, very experience.
:We're so grateful here for your time
:today. I really, really appreciate
:it. Such a pleasure meeting you.
:You're welcome. Thank you so much.
:So that was my interview with Curt
:Penzias. Now, what did you think
:of this interview?
:Let me know by commenting under
:the YouTube video.
:There is a link to it in the show
:notes, along with all the other
:important links.
:I love checking out your comments.
:As always, thank you so much for
:listening today and thank
:you for your support.
