What are the key skills researchers need to thrive in today's fast-paced market?

In this episode of the Greenbook Podcast, host Lenny Murphy welcomes Bianca Johnston, who shares her journey from a hybrid research and marketing role at Shopify to launching her own research consulting and education company. Bianca discusses the importance of bridging gaps between research and business functions, the impact of AI on research, and her vision for helping non-researchers and junior researchers improve their practices. The conversation delves into the future of the industry, the evolving role of researchers, and Bianca's upcoming ventures. Tune in for an insightful discussion on integrating insights into strategic actions and navigating the changing landscape of market research.

You can reach out to Bianca on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Bianca for being our guest. Thanks also to our producer, Natalie Pusch; and our editor, Big Bad Audio.

Hello, everybody. It’s Lenny Murphy with another edition of the Greenbook Podcast. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to spend it with us. And as usual, when I say ‘us,’ I don’t mean my multiple personalities, I do mean a guest. And today’s the best type of guest in my mind because it’s somebody that I’ve never spoken to before, so it’s so exciting. So, join me in welcoming Bianca Johnston. Welcome, Bianca.

Thanks, Lenny. Good to be here.

I hope that you continue to feel that way.

[laugh].

Now, normally I introduce title and company, but we’re actually having this conversation while you’re in a little bit of a transition mode. So, I’m going to let you—

Yes—

Actually, talk about that.

—for the [laugh]—yeah, for the past four-and-a-half years, I’ve been with Shopify, first as a researcher, and then more recently into a bit of a hybrid research marketing role. But tomorrow is my last day, and I’m going out off on my own to do a bit of research consulting, freelancing, and also research education company. So, I’m super excited. I’ll take a couple of weeks off and then sort of get into it. So yeah, a bit of a transition phase for me right now.

Well, let’s talk about that for a minute. So, the hybrid role between research and marketing. Tell me about it, yeah.

It was a bit more of a function of me [laugh]. It wasn’t like this is—Shopify is—like, one of the great things about it is we have, we call it the jungle gym, the ability to sort of move around where you could have the most impact. And I was supporting—from the market research team—supporting our offline marketing team, and worked very closely with them in a sort of semi-embedded model for a couple of years, and then from there, decided it would be fun to sort of join the marketing team and sort of start actioning the insights that I have, like, spent the last few years developing. So, it was, like, a marketing role, but just because I had all that research background, and sort of started interacting with this team, as a researcher, I still kept a little bit of sort of that research. So, I ran creative testing and stuff like that.

So, I took a few things because I didn’t want to let go of, like, my passion of research [laugh], while I joined. So, it was only a hybrid role because I kind of forced it to be, but it was really fun that way. And then I sort of got to develop the insights, kind of repackage them in a way that I knew my marketing counterparts would really be able to action, and then start to develop creative strategies and messaging from those insights. So, it was very cool.

Very cool. So, you’re a double threat?

A little bit, yeah [laugh].

Yeah. Yeah. So, is that—now that you’re going out and launching your own consultancy and educational business, is that I assume in forming that positioning of, look, let’s think about the connective tissue between—

Totally.

Insights only exist to drive marketing. So—

Exactly. So, I found it really helpful sitting—when I was on either side of that fence—knowing what the other side did in the day-to-day, what they needed, what their KPIs were. And so, that’s part of—I kind of have two audiences for this sort of educational offering. One will be kind of like tech employees and founders who need to do research, don’t have a researcher in-house, and are sort of doing it wrong. So, that’s kind of like getting from zero to one.

And then the others are people who are researchers, maybe more early-stage career, who—I really believe in this breaking down the barriers between these different departments, and found really some interesting ways to do that at Shopify. And part of it was the nature of that culture, but really want to help people figure out ways to kind of, I guess, break down the silos and have those departments working together, whether it’s quant and qual, whether it’s market research and UX research, whether it’s market research and marketing or product or UX. So, just sort of getting that more collaborative view, understanding those stakeholders, it’s just going to make the impact so much greater. So, that’s sort of informing a lot of that, kind of, getting from one to two on your research practice, sort of becoming that partner to the business.

I love that. And I think it’s a skill set and perspective very much needed in the industry. And especially now is the barriers are coming down across the board in how technology is enabling that now. I would assume at Shopify, that you have access to a hell of a lot more data than just surveys, and focus groups.

Definitely, yeah [laugh].

Yeah. So—and you mentioned how the synthesis. So, how are you thinking about that, especially now—let’s go ahead and break the wall and say AI—now that we have this new tool that allows for synthesis in a much more efficient way, kind of, what’s your perspective in bringing these things together for greater marketing effectiveness?

Yeah. Well, it’s kind of like two parts to your question. One is sort of the different disciplines. So, for that, like, we did many projects where you’re involving, you know, market research, but also product research and also the data team. And anytime you can sort of get that triangulation across data sources, and buy-in from those different teams and all their stakeholders, it’s just going to be that much stronger and more compelling. So, that’s kind of like the first part.

And the second part with AI [laugh], like, where do I start? I’m still exploring, right? Right now the level that I’m at is, sort of like, level one [laugh] of how do we get to a version one faster, right, utilizing it that way. So, the tedious tasks that researchers historically have spent longer amount of time on, we can do that quicker, I can draft up a first draft of a questionnaire much, much quicker. Analysis, you can get that first draft, and then—or sort of that first round of analysis—always check it because we’re still at the phase where sometimes it lies—but you know, we’re getting to that V1 faster.

From there, it’s just sort of, we’re at the Wild West a little bit. Like, we’re figuring out how to take it to the next level beyond that. At least I am. And so, part of what I’m going to do in my time off, I don’t really rest very well, so I will be digging into this a lot more, and experimenting with different tools, and platforms, and sort of getting more of a POV on it because it’s super exciting for our industry. I lean towards optimistic versus pessimistic because I think what it’s going to do is actually enable the researcher to do more of the strategic work that I’m such, like, a proponent of.

But we really need to know what we’re dealing with. And I think we’re still in the research on research phase. Like, I like to run something through AI and then, like, see how it compares to an actual study, for instance, like, synthetic data versus, like, real participants. And so until, you know, I do more of that testing, and there’s more sort of official research on that, I’m still, like, I’m still in the learning phase. And I think a lot of us are.

Yes. By necessity. I agree. I think the differences, though—tell me whether you’re you sensed this—previously thought we’ve got time to go through this testing phase, right.

Yes.

We’ve got a couple of years. Nope, I don’t think we have a couple of years [laugh].

No [laugh]. It’s yesterday. I know, it’s so true.

Like, a few days, maybe a few months. Right. That acceleration is just palpable.

It really is. It’s a good point. I’m glad you brought it up. Like at Shopify, they’re very pro AI, and they’re like, you know, “Figure out how to get it into your workflow, figure it out.” And for me, it was always just, like, “But everything else is still moving so fast, so I need to really, like, set aside the time to make”—you know, because it’s a learning curve, and you have to—it takes longer before it takes shorter. You have to set up the systems, figure out the prompts for whatever you’re doing in order to save the time. And so, sometimes that is the hump to get over. And meanwhile, you’re right. It’s like ChatGPT 5 is coming out, and [laugh] I’m still, like, “What’s 3.5?” So, yeah [laugh], we got to move quickly.

I literally just started utilizing Copilot in the last two weeks. Which was a conscious decision, right? I’ve been resistant, not from the standpoint of, look, obviously, it’s my job. I get all of the benefits, I get all of that. I am very concerned about me becoming lazy and dependent on the technology. And I’ve had to find the use cases where that was not—where clearly the benefits from an efficiency standpoint outweighed the potential liabilities for me in terms of my role or what I’m trying to do, or even just my view of myself as a [laugh] as a professional.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I relate to that so much. A couple examples. I took my kids to a theme park last—I’m in Canada, Canada’s Wonderland, [laugh]—last Friday, and we were meeting up with some different families. And I’m like, I just have no sense of direction because I’ve been relying on Waze for the past how many years [laugh].

So, that is what I’m worried—I do I share that, like, sense of worry. I also really like every [laugh] stage of the research process. I love analyzing, you know, data tables or transcripts. And I have a pro—I do. Like, I mean, that’s—I’m in the right job.

But like, that’s part of my process of, like, developing the story. Things come up, right? And so, I’m interested to see how that’s going to develop. Now, I’m like, okay, this has been—obviously, it’s faster. You can’t not take advantage of it, but I’m like, okay, here’s a synthesized AI summary. Am I still going to get those same sparks of aha moments as an insight in the same way, or will I have to reframe my process? So yeah, lots to think about.

Yes. Yes. And well, we [don’t want to 00:09:12] go too far down the—[there’s 00:09:14] enough conversation around AI. But I think, kind of, the subtext I’m picking up from you, and your experience, particularly with this dual role, is firmly understanding the how, but transitioning really into the so what, into kind of the sense-making. And even a tie that back to our previous point, I think that is the value-added skill for us, going forward for our industry.

Yes. Yeah.

You know, there’s the technical component of how and that’s going to be important, but it’s not nearly as important is, what does this mean, what do we do with it, and what are the business implications?

Absolutely. Yeah, and I think I thought I got that, and I did to an extent as a researcher, but it wasn’t until I, sort of, came over to the marketing side, and I sat down to write a brief, and I was like, “Okay,” [laugh] you know, like the blank page syndrome. And I’m like, “Okay, what are we doing?” And then you go into the research, and then you go into, like, you know, the business metrics, and you go into the product. And I think there’s, like, a middle artifact or piece between, sort of, a research deck and what the marketing team needs to put together to create creative, or strategy, or whatever it is. And that’s sort of a bridge that I’d like to help people connect.

And it’s different in every case, so it’s not—I haven’t, like, developed a framework or a system yet, but it’s something I’m going to be spending some time thinking about is how do we break that down into pieces that are—you know, speak the language of your stakeholders a little bit more than research report and done and on to the next. And so, yeah, that’s kind of what I’m interested in, that bridge between.

Do you think that will be—because I’ve heard you talk about creative a lot, and… I mean, I’ll just say it, I just—boy, I would not want to be in the creative industry right now. I’m so glad that I am not because I’m aware of companies that are taking the traditional creative, testing it with AI creative that is created on the fly in the [laugh] in the test platform. And invariably, it seems like the AI creative is winning. And I’m aware of marketing platforms that you give them a brief, and it creates everything from scratch out of there, and functionally, our roles are editors. And if I think about that from the standpoint of, it’s data-driven, it’s synthesizing the information, it’s optimizing that, and those are tactical components, it still leaves the strategic aspect.

So, my sense is that the more tactical the function is, the more it is just going to be usurped by AI over a period of time, and we will continue to have to shift even more into this role of tapping into intuition, into you know, dot-connecting, you know, those things at a higher and higher strategic level. Does that resonate or do you think, “Oh, quit being dystopian, Lenny?” That’s not where we’re going.

[laugh]. I mean, you know, it depends what side of the bed I wake up on in the morning. Some days, I’m really pessimistic about it all. Some days, I’m more optimistic. And the optimistic side, we could tell a very similar story for research, right? The optimistic side is that to prompt these things, you need a skill set. Like, I wouldn’t want non—and this has happened, democratization of research, and I’m, like, down for that, but part of my educational offerings will be about making sure people aren’t making the common mistakes, right?

Yeah. Yeah, well, so I—you have kids, so I’m sure that you will get this reference, right? When everybody’s super, nobody will be.

[laugh]. Yeah. Participation trophy.

Yes, right? So, just that quote from The Incredibles, I just—it comes back all the time now in thinking is that—that’s the world we’re going towards potentially. And I love your spin on, but that’s just going to create another opportunity. So yeah, that’s a great way to think about it. And I have to say even, you know, looking at some of the creative that I’ve seen that’s been AI generated, it is technically amazing, but it’s not like, “Oh, that’s so emotionally resonant,” right?

Yeah. Does is make you feel anything? Like, yeah [laugh]. I mean, that’s what works.

Right. It’s more like, “Wow, this is great,” but I—just—“Everything is fake? Wow.”

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that’s cool that a computer was able to make that, but yeah. Is it making me buy something?

Right. Right—

Probably not [laugh].

—the messaging. So, you’re entering the market with this new consulting and educational offering at a really interesting time. So, kind of thinking about this conversation that we’ve just been having, give us the pitch. So pretend—

Oh, jeez [laugh].

You have an audience, these maybe prospective clients. So, give us the pitch.

Well, audience one is sort of a lot of people I’ve seen throughout tech companies—and this—sorry, this is not the pitch. I wasn’t ready for this.

[laugh].

I’m going to take my two weeks vacation first and then think of the pitch. But I should have, should have thought of it. A lot of what I talked about on LinkedIn is—I think I have, like, a little tagline, like, “Do research right.” I’ve seen so many—again, the democratization of research—so many self-serve platforms, now we have AI and all this data, you can do anything, you find a way to do anything on the internet. But that means a lot of people who’ve never been trained in this field are collecting data, and they’re thinking, “I’m doing great. I did a survey. Look at me. I’m going to go run with this. I’m going to go make decisions based on this.”

But then I’m seeing, oh well, that was an N of 6. That’s not [laugh] a robust sample size. Or, you know, mmm, you know, the way you ask this question, when you just ask the person, “Would you buy this?” Not going to stand in reality. And so, I’ve seen over many different environments over the past several years, many of these mistakes are happening, and I just want to help people, kind of, do it right so they’re not making bad decisions, and they’re not throwing away money. And so, that’s sort of audience one. So, that’s sort of like the non-researcher, helping them kind of level up into research, zero to one.

The one to two is people who’ve taken—you know, junior researchers, perhaps they’ve taken a course, they know the basics, they know research one-on-one, they’ve run studies, and it’s really how to, you know, level up their impact. And this is everything we were talking about being a partner to the business: how do you position things for execs? How do you get buy-in to even conduct the research? When do you just kind of do it and ask for forgiveness later? What kind of methods are you choosing? Do we need to, sort of, invent new methods?

But I think often we’re moving so quickly in research, and it’s just, like, “Oh, another intake? Let’s do another survey.” Well, let’s step back and make sure. Is this the right method? Can we bring something from, you know, UXR that they’re doing? And so, really just about that cross-functional, interdisciplinary craft and leveling up your research game to get promoted faster, to make more of an impact, and to sort of like, be the hero. I think researchers are often sort of like, relegated to the side, or we like that, sort of, behind the curtain, and it’s like, no, let’s get out there and show what we can do because we’re a smart bunch.

That’s very cool. Now, so being Canadian, are you friends with Karina Pepin or with Annie Pettit?

Karina and I are LinkedIn friends, yeah [laugh]. We did a LinkedIn Live together once. Yeah, no, we just connected through both posting on LinkedIn and enjoying each other’s posts. So, we’ve met virtually a few times, and I’m a big fan, and I love the conversation that she’s driving forward on data quality. It’s so important.

So, [laugh] the obvious connection is, oh, you’re all three Canadian women. No. That’s—

Yeah. [laugh]. We’re a big country, but yeah [laugh].

[laugh]. Right.

We got one out of two [laugh].

Right. You get the right answer. [laugh]. No, what struck me is there’s definitely a need for a new educational training offer like you’re describing. And I think there’s a few other people—and that’s why I mentioned both Karina and Annie—that have dimensions to that.

Yeah. I would love that. Yeah, I’m on sort of a mission to find those people, so if anyone else comes to mind, you let me know [laugh].

I will. And have we had a conversation about having an expert channel on Greenbook with any of your content?

No.

Well, I—there we go. So.

All right [laugh].

All right, we’ll follow up on that.

Okay. Okay. Excellent.

Yeah.

Love it.

Just the world is changing, and that’s why we do the podcast, that’s why we do so many of the things that we do is to understand how the world is changing, and bringing great, smart people together like you that are helping to create that new future. We’re not going to do it. I’m not going to create training materials. I’m not a—you know, that’s not my ability whatsoever, but we certainly want to connect folks like you to the rest of the world because it is a need. And a need that’s only going to increase. So anyway, I didn’t think this was going to turn into a sales pitch for me to you of, like, “Please come and, you know, let us help amplify”—

Oh, good. We’re going agenda-less [laugh].

[laugh]. [crosstalk 00:20:11]. Our audience is used to the free-flowing aspect of these podcasts.

That’s awesome [laugh].

I want to be conscious of your time as well as the time of our listeners. So, what is your view on what’s the future look like over the course of the next five years? One, for you: what is your objective? You think, here’s how I want this to manifest? And then secondly, after that, the industry as a whole?

Yeah. Well, I’ll start with me, that’s easier [laugh]. That’s something I’ve thought about a lot. I’ve spent my whole career, like 13, 14 years so far in large corporations, doing basically supplier-side research within a client-side environment. So, always end-to-end.

Which was like always really great. I learned the full process, but had access to you know, those internal partners, and the other forms of data. So, I have loved that, and worked in a variety of industries doing that. But my last company, as I mentioned, was Shopify and there I got to study, from a researcher standpoint, entrepreneurs. And so [laugh], that’s for me the next three, five, however many years.

I want to kind of start my own business, and try out entrepreneurship. I kind of like caught the bug after a few years, kind of learning more about that world. So, that’s what it is, for me. I’m also very into, like, you know, post-Covid flexibility, remote work, everything, just like the power of the internet. I have made so many friends just on LinkedIn, we go for dinner, we go for coffee, I’ll be like, “Hey, bye, I’m going to meet, uh [laugh], going to meet a friend from the internet. See you if I come home.”

But like [laugh], it’s such an amazing time to start an online business and just make those connections with people. So, that’s for me, sort of, like charting my own path, not really sure what it looks like. Sure, there’s going to be lots of things that I haven’t even thought of, but very excited. And like I mentioned, there’s going to be an educational component, sort of like a done-with-you model of, like, education, plus, you know, some coaching, and then I’ll do a couple of, sort of like, freelance consulting, more like end-to-end projects a year because I just want to stay in it and love that work. So, that’s what it looks like next for me.

Are you going to use Shopify to launch your own site and—

To host.

—to—

Well, yes [laugh].

Yes [laugh].

Most likely [laugh].

Of course.

As an alumnus, yeah [laugh]. Yeah. And for the industry, like, I mean, I think we touched on a lot of it. And I’m hoping to give some more thought to this over the next few weeks, but you know, as we mentioned, AI is changing it. I think the importance of a strategic researcher is what’s necessary in that world to be able to understand when this is good data? How do I validate it? When do I use it? When do I not use it?

And similarly, that cross-functional, sort of, engagement with other disciplines. We can’t be in a silo anymore. We can’t fear that. And then also just like a bit of a PR plug for researchers, sort of, being their own promotion vehicle internally, and sort of—I know when I started, for many years in my research career, I was sort of—I liked being on the background. I like being the supporting player, kind of like helping and, like, “Here, do this, do this,” but I didn’t want the spotlight.

And I don’t know, a lot of researchers I know fit that profile as well, not to stereotype the whole industry [laugh], but I saw that there was a limit to my impact when I did that. And so, I decided to, sort of, figure out how do we promote our work more? How do we kind of get in the room earlier? And part of that is just understanding that the other departments, and how they work, and what matters to them. I’m hoping that’s the future of the industry as well, a little more, like, kind of rah-rah PR for the researchers slash strategists slash insights people.

I agree, and I think that’s what we’ll—we’re going to bifurcate. Well, we already are, right? Probably the bulk of the revenue is going to be on the tech side, but the bulk of the value creation is going to be on the consultancy side. So yeah, I think that’s where—we’ve been going that way for a long time. AI is just accelerating it like it is everything else. So, kind of, wind down. Where do you look for inspiration? So, what gets you excited? Besides the work stuff, right? Let’s set that aside. What else?

Oh, like outside of, like, my—okay, well, when I’m not hanging on LinkedIn [laugh] I’m hanging on the other social media. No, so I don’t do TikTok because I know if I do—I have kids, I have to, like, just I have to spend some time with them, and I know that’s a rabbit hole. But I do, when I’m on Instagram, I sew in my spare time—which I don’t have a lot of—I sew clothing, like, just for fun. And so, I get a lot of inspiration from the Instagram community on that. And I also—I am forever a city dweller, I live downtown Toronto, but I’ve been lately been, like, called to nature and farms, so I just I get my fill by looking at, like, homesteaders on Instagram. I’m like, “Oh, they’re making their own sourdough, and, like, they have full gardens.” And so, I’m like, oh, maybe one day I’ll do that because it seems very appealing. I need more nature in my life. So yes, sadly, I get it from a tiny screen [laugh].

So, that’s really interesting. I think that is a trend. And we are examples of that as well. Two years ago, two years in July, we moved from our suburban Atlanta swim-tennis community, and bought a ten-acre homestead farm in South Central Kentucky.

No.

Yes.

Oh, my gosh.

So, that is—

Tell me [laugh].

—the life that we—well, our listeners have heard me go on and on about that. We can have an offline conversation. But yeah, we’re living that life. We’re very busy right now with planning, and my wife has, like, 200 seedlings that we’re going to be getting in the ground this weekend. And—

Oh, my gosh. Yes. Okay, offline, we’ll talk more about that because I need to know [laugh].

It is an interesting life. Most of my neighbors are Amish, so if that gives you any indication. So—

Got you [laugh].

But what about that? What’s that calling about? What appeals to you about that?

Well, I live in a row house. I’m very attached to my neighbors, I have a concrete patio in the front, and a little concrete patio in the back with a grass rug. Like, I just need more greenery [laugh]. And yeah, you know, you can get to the parks, but I can’t just open the back door and be, like, “Run children. Go.” I have to go take them to a park. So, I just think—we have a—my in-laws live up at their family cottage, and so that’s all on a lake, and we get our nature fix in the summer, but I think just a little more nature in my life is kind of what I need. Because I spend a lot of time looking at a screen.

It’s so interesting, though, I think that is a macro trend. And I do think it’s a byproduct of 2020, and there’s a long tail to that if people just reassessing. And as technology accelerates, right, like, okay, we’re, we are entering into sci-fi world, right? We can s—there’s going to be robots around us, and you know, we’re maybe not quite at the Jetsons level, [laugh] right, but it’s coming. And how do you balance that out?

And, you know, having this more connected, organic, authentic type of life experience, especially, you know, when you have kids. Anyway, yeah, a whole other conversation on that.

Totally [laugh].

All right. Anything else that you go to? Any books or shows or anything else that you just think, all right, this just gets me charged up and ready for the world.

Shows right now, I went through a real, real, like, Irish TV hilarious shows Derry Girls was one, and Bad Sisters was another. So, I went through a real phase recently. Those were hilarious. And then I’m reading, kind of, similar to my kind of cross-disciplinary thing that I’m trying to do in work, I’m reading a lot of books across other industries, whether it’s, you know, behavioral science—well, it’s connected to ours—all things that are tangential, but sort of not directly research books, you know, broader topics on branding and marketing and stuff like that. So, that’s what I’m into these days.

So, where can people find you, Bianca? Obviously, LinkedIn, since [laugh]—

LinkedIn is the place. And I don’t have my personal website up yet, so I will eventually, and add a link to that from my LinkedIn. But yeah, just Bianca Johnston on LinkedIn is the best place to find me.

All right. Well, thank you so much. This has been—

Thank you.

—a real pleasure. Best of luck. I know that we’ll talk again because—

Absolutely.

I’m going to recruit you to create content for Greenbook on training. So [laugh]—

Yeah, this was really great. Thanks so much, Lenny.

Appreciate it. Thank you. And on that note, this will wrap up this edition of the Greenbook Podcast. Thank you, as always, to our producer, Natalie, to our editor, Big Bad Audio, to our sponsors, and mostly to you, our listeners because without you, we wouldn’t be having these conversations. So, that’s it for now. We’ll catch you on the next episode. Bye-bye.