The Suicide Prevention Lifeline number is 1-800-273-8255

In this Part II episode we build on the conversation of Part I in Episode 9. We are weeks further into the #COVID19 pandemic and continue our review of statistics and trends surrounding this type of loss, particularly with social distancing and isolation.  Numbers and trends only tell part of the story. Guilt is an emotional experience that accurate or not can cause a suicide survivor to bear responsibility and shame for things they have absolutely no control over. As a suicide survivor Marshall gives heartfelt insight and advice that anyone feeling the weight of guilt from the loss of a loved one should not miss.

The only thing missing from our conversation is you! We welcome your comments, suggestions and questions! Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation!

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Website: http://hopethrugrief.com.

Subscribe & Share: https://hope-thru-grief.captivate.fm/listen

Jordan Smelski Foundation: http://www.jordansmelskifoundation.org

Tune in for new episodes every Thursday morning wherever you listen to podcasts!

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical or mental health treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately. The Suicide Prevention Lifeline number is 1-800-273-8255

Thank you

Marshall Adler

Steve Smelski

Hello everybody.

Thank you for joining us today.

This episode, we decided that with a lot of things that are going on

in the news, that we would go back and touch on the subject of suicide.

Again, we did a part one a few weeks ago, and we'd like to call this episode about

suicide and it'll be a part two version.

And there's been a lot of things in the news lately.

And just to take a back and bring up what we touched on in part one,

we talked about the complex issues.

Number of statistics to grow number of cases, no common component.

It's hard to decipher why, and then talked in depth about the iceberg analogy.

I shared a personal story.

Marshall did.

So one of the things that is often been upfront for me, and

I don't know, I don't understand suicide as well as Marshall does.

He's right a lot more than I have.

But it's the consequences, not only to the people who are

injured or die from their attempt.

It also affects the rest of the family and the community.

And that can be through shock, anger, guilt, and depression.

And the last episode, we talked about the fact that they would be considered

suicide survivors, and then those that actually attempt suicide and survive may

have serious injuries or broken bones, which can have longterm effects on health.

Obviously, Marshal, this affects a very large number of people in the U.S.

right now.

What are your thoughts around dealing with the shock, the anger, the guilt,

and the depression as a suicide survivor?

Steve, that's an excellent question.

And there's so many different facets to suicide that are so incomprehensible.

I know you and I have talked both on and off the camera on the show about

losing a loved one suddenly versus somebody that has a terminal debilitating

longterm disease, where you know that the end result is going to be their

passing and there's different dynamics with both and which is worse than, it's

hard to tell .With suicide and it's sort of bittersweet when you said I

know more about suicide than you do.

Unfortunately, I wish I didn't, but I do because that's how Matt passed.

And I just decided that I have to spend the rest of my life learning as much as I

can to not only help me on my journey of grief, but to try to help others that have

either lost loved ones through suicide or find some type of medical technology

that will eventually help diagnose, treat, and hopefully some take cure whatever

the entity is that causes suicide.

So it's a real complicated question.

And I think I will just tell you.

And I'll tell a little joke here.

What'd you think you always have to use humor?

You know, I'm not a doctor, I don't play when I'm on TV.

But I obviously can't give medical advice, but I've talked to literally

hundreds of people that have lost loved ones to suicide and thee every suicide

is different, but the overwhelming common factor that I've seen is that

the people that have lost love and the suicide, didn't see it coming.

And I've been amazed by how many people that have told me that even

when their loved one had previously unsuccessfully attempted suicide, where

they knew that this person had attempted didn't succeed were still alive.

But when they actually did this and took their life, they were shocked

because I think what happens is if somebody is at the point where they

have made the decision to take their life, I've heard so many people and

I'll say this with Matt, absolutely.

I literally talked to him.

It was probably the day before he passed and he was funny and upbeat.

And looking forward to the future, Matt was doing his own content

with movies, things like that.

The day that he passed, we think that he literally launched new YouTube channel

with some of his original content.

Oh wow

And you're saying, why in the world would you launch a new

YouTube channel with original content if you're not going to even survive the day.

Because again, this is just my personal philosophy.

I think that people that have suicidal ideation is a battle that

they have to fight every single day.

And they know that there will come a day when they're gonna lose that battle.

Maybe it's today.

Maybe it's tomorrow, maybe it's a week, a month, a year, a decade from now.

They don't know.

So I think they live their lives the best they can being as productive

as they can for as long as they can, until they lose that battle.

And I'll just talk about Matt.

About a year before that passed, there was a very good female friend

of Matt that passed by suicide.

And I think again, just trying to put this all together, I

think Matt was in love with her.

And what happened is she attempted suicide and survived and put out so many thank

yous on social media, to the people that supported her after she survived

a suicide attempt that she felt she had a whole new viewpoint on life, a whole

new philosophy, a whole new arsenal of tools to fight suicidal ideation.

If you saw those things say, wow, this is fantastic.

She's really came close to the abyss and stepped back and what happened?

I think within four weeks later, she did attempt to succeed and she passed.

So even though she attempted, and people knew, she attempted people were

shocked that she passed by suicide because of all of the statements she was

giving to her friends and loved ones.

Showing that this would never happen again when she could

have been fighting it daily, not knowing what day they would happen.

So for the survivors to think that the coulda shoulda, woulda

would have changed the outcome.

I think it's number one, not healthy.

And number two, I think is probably delusional.

Because somebody that loses a loved one to suicide.

And I've said this many, many times, if you could have stopped it, you would

have you didn't because you can't.

And you know, Matt was 3000 miles away, but we just saw him.

He was here in Orlando and I put them on the plane.

Less than two weeks before he passed and he was the happiest that

I've seen him in his adult life.

And I just told him how proud I was of him.

And he told me that he finally learned that it's not what

happened to you in life.

It's how you handle it, how you cope with it.

And as a parent that's music to your ears.

Cause that's what we all have to do.

You can't control.

It's going to happen to you.

It's how you deal with the challenges of life.

Matt really dealt with the challenges in a very brave way and living

a life of kindness and purpose.

And so when he passed, we were so shocked because every outward sign

was that this was something that would never, ever, ever happen.

To him or to us and it did so whatever guilt feelings of, I should've done

this, should've done that, that exist with people have lost levels of suicide.

I think over time, the ones that I've talked to have

all realized it's a fallacy.

You can't control that any more than you could control.

And I said this before somebody with a Glioblastoma brain tumor

and it's a Gioblastoma brain tumor is a horrific brain cancer.

The medical technology has doesn't have a cure for, and to think that

all my loved one, if they ever got it, I'd be able to control that.

So they won't pass away.

That's fantasy thinking because John McCain passed

from it, his family loved him.

Ted Kennedy passed from it.

His family loves him at a very good friend of mine.

Bob Felice, wonderful guy, his family loved him, he passed from it.

So I think this is just a corollary of the same condition in the sense that whatever

brain disease, chemical imbalance, whatever name you want

to put on, it is not the important thing.

The important thing is that medical science doesn't have a diagnostic tool

to identify it a treatment to help with the symptoms or a cure to prevent it.

Given that , I think the guilt and the sense of cause with the

guilt, the underlying premise is that I could control this.

You can't, you never did.

So your question or your answer to that question

raised two other questions for me.

You pointed out that on the day that Matt died he had actually started a

YouTube channel, brand new one with his own content, which means he woke

up that day, never contemplating or thinking that was in the plan.

Right.

He actually went to a movie that day ,also, could he saw pictures

of it and he was critiquing the movie, man was this incredibly

sophisticated, incredibly intelligent, incredibly knowledgeable film expert.

And he would dissect films like a biologist will dissect the molecule.

It's just incredible the way he did it.

And it literally was that day.

So I don't think he had any idea that he was not going to survive the day.

It just wasn't on the radar screen.

It's all it was.

Wow, I guess I hadn't heard it explained that way before.

The second question that your first answer gave me was those

that attempt suicide, but survive.

Obviously that there's going to be physical or emotional or psychological

problems from based on how far close they got to it, which could actually

affect them the rest of their life.

So from our standpoint, looking in, you're like, oh, that's awesome.

They didn't now they got a new lease on life, but that's really

not the way it works is it?

It's like putting a bandaid on a raging infection.

If you've got a raging infection, it's a bacterial infection.

You're going to need an antibiotic to fight it.

A bandaid, it may feel better because it's pushing it down or doing

something with it, but it's not a cure.

And I think the whatever, again, whatever the disease process of suicide is, I don't

know if a unsuccessful attempt alters the timeline of the, of the disease.

It may delay it.

It may change his progression for a while, but I don't think it cures it

because I've talked to many people.

Who've had loved ones perform multiple suicide attempts unsuccessfully,

and then eventually pass where they suicide that unfortunately succeeds.

Wow.

So let's, let's switch gears a little bit here.

I've been since we had that first episode, I've been reading and noticing articles

on suicide, mental illness, depression.

There was a report in The Washington Post showing coronavirus pandemic is pushing

America into a mental health crisis.

Do you think that is absolutely true and where do you see that going?

I think it is absolutely true and I'll just

answer this in two different ways.

As you know, I've spoke of Dr.

Lorna Breen, who was a ER physician in New York City who was an incredible person

and during the worst of the worst of the worst of the pandemic in New York, she

was literally obsessed with trying to save people and apparently there was one time

that she was distraught and they had to tell her, you know, you've got to take

care of yourself, but I think somebody said that she was seeing people literally

in the waiting room waiting to be seen that eventually died in the waiting room.

Right.

Seeing a doctor.

Because it was such a tsunami of cases and it really, really adversely affected her.

And she eventually was taken by a psychiatrist friend.

And it's my understanding from reading the media reports to her home in

Charlottesville, Virginia, where she was admitted at the university of

Virginia medical center with her family.

I think she was hospitalized for 9 days and was discharged and then came home

and took her life, which to me shows two things about the control thing.

Obviously , there's an example of what I was talking about in the sense

that she was in a wonderfully safe.

excellent university medical research center.

The University of Virginia is one of the finest universities in the

world, a wonderful medical center.

And she was there, obviously I'll draw observation and if they had known what

would have happened to her, obviously they would have done something to

do what they could do to prevent it and they didn't because they didn't

see it or they couldn't stop it.

So the control thing to me just shows you, Oh, even experts in the medical field.

Can't control it.

Can't control that's number one.

But number two is I think there's going to be two different things going on

from the two different population basis.

I think that the first line responders and medical professionals that have

dealt with the tsunami of cases and I've seen such death on such a large scale.

I've heard many of them give interviews saying that they believe that they

have PTSD and they will be having PTSD, but they can't even deal with it now

because they got to try to save lives.

But after this is all over it cause PTSD, as we know is Post

Traumatic Stress Disorder.

So they're still in the middle of the trauma.

So it's almost like pre-post, they haven't gotten there yet because

it's still, we're still in the trauma the pandemic is still here.

But once the dust settles, I think the longterm effect on the medical responders

is going to be very, very profound.

And the I know that the family of Lorna Brene or father was a medical doctor

and her family set up a charitable fund specifically to fund mental health

treatment for medical people, first responders, because they, more than

anybody else know how severe this can and probably will be for their population.

So that's a subset that I think is truly going to be unfortunately

dealing with issue of suicide in the larger societal picture.

My fear is that younger people and older people are going to be at risk

because older people, as we know, many times get lonely because they have

lived a long life, many of their loved ones, their friends are not around.

They don't have ability to socialize because of physical impairments or

whatever you add that now with the social distancing requirements and inability to

have human contact through the pandemic.

I think that's going to have an adverse effect that could affect

the suicide rate among older people.

But the flip side of that coin is younger people because younger people

may not have the coping mechanisms to deal with such a catastrophic change in

their lives, in the sense that so many people at a young age their friends,

their social interactions take a much greater importance in their life than

it should, including social media.

How many likes she gets and with no human to human contact, no touching, no hugging.

That could be exacerbated because all they're going to be dealing with is what

we're doing now, talking to machines.

I see you see me we are interacting, but not in the normal sense the way humans

have been interacting for thousands and thousands of years saying hi to

each other, being close to each other, shaking hands, pat each other on the

back, hugging . All that is prohibited now because the pandemic requires it.

So again, I don't know how that is going to affect, but I have seen

studies just starting now how suicide rates this year are already higher than

they were last year at the same time.

And I think the third issue to be looked at, which is a

medical issue, is that I know Dr.

Breen's family thought that the virus attacked her brain and could have been a

contributing factor in her suicide because there, you know, because it's a novel

coronavirus, it's a new virus, medical science doesn't know exactly where and

what part of the body is being attacked.

So there are neurological issues dealing with this, and that could be another

factor leading to increase suicides.

That was going to be my next question

cause I had read some things.

Her dad was a medical doctor as well, and he said she'd never been suicidal

before and never thought about it.

And he had that question, could it have been a medical

reaction from the virus itself.

Which is a whole nother ball game that we have no data on tobacco or

history long enough out to see what the effects are going to be interesting.

So I also read that there was another article.

I think this one was on CNN and it was an episode on suicide.

And they said there's a couple of reports that have been out saying that one in

four young people between the ages of 18 and 24 have actually thought about and

contemplating suicide since March of 2020.

To me, that is, that's a scary number.

It's horrific!

I ,you know, so much of data and polling is what somebody is willing to tell you.

So that's 1/4 of the people contact were willing to say

yes, I have suicidal ideation.

How many people have suicidal ideation, but they're not gonna tell the pollster.

So that could be the floor, not the ceiling.

Yeah.

Which it's evem worse.

And again, and how many of those people will actually act on that to be

determined, but that's not a good number.

No, it's certainly not a good number.

You touched on something earlier talking about wondering if I should of seen

signs or if I should have seen it coming.

Could I have prevented it and you've pretty much come

out and said, absolutely not.

They're going to go through with it.

There's no way you could have seen it ,contemplated, known or changed it.

What do you say to the survivors and the parents and the

friends and the grandparents?

I mean, you and I have been in grief for a while and we know

guilt can be a very big part of it.

We worry about things that are completely out of our control.

And somehow you put yourself in the middle of it and say,

wow, I should have known that.

Or I could've prevented that if I just, and it's like, I think

it's nonsense to take yourself there, but we all think about it

at some point in our grief journey.

What do you say to them as far as giving them hope?

I know there's several Bible verses that I've found.

Which talk about your days are numbered their number before you

were born, not after you were born.

And so as a parent, is it, is it even worth taking the time and

effort to go there and think about that or as a brother or a sister?

I mean, those are dark thoughts and it's a bad place to go and dwell in.

It is in it's interesting.

You mentioned the Bible because being Jewish, I 've spent my entire

life going to holiday service for Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur.

Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish new year.

Yom Kippur, a day of atonment , but they're 10 days apart.

And the prayer book, my entire life I've read it.

And I really amazed how this resonates with me now that in the Jewish religion

at the beginning of the year, it's stated that it's already written

who shall live, who shall die, who shall be content, who shall have

difficulties it's already in the book.

And again, the control that we think we have is an illusion

and probably a delusion.

Maybe it helps us sleep well at night.

I think we can control things when we can't.

If that helps people sleep.

So be it.

But the sense of control again is such a difficult concept because I think it

all is going to do is lead to guilt.

And I think the thing that I decided to do was to make my emphasis and

looking at what Matt did during his life, how we live, not how he died.

Because after he passed away, we've been inundated with people calling

us, texting us, emailing us, stopping by our house, telling us what a

wonderful human being Matt was and how he positively affected their lives

and change our lives for the better.

And he was on this planet for 32 years and I think he knew he

wasn't gonna live a long life.

And so he was going to make the most of his time here.

And in the end of the day, none of us are here a long time.

And isn't it the lesson that we all have to learn, we're all here a short time.

you better make it a good time by making the place we live on

this planet earth better than it was when you, before you came.

And because of that, Any guilt that I think a suicides survivor has,

should be looked at differently because the guilt, I think, is a

offshoot of the control fallacy.

And if you let go of the control fallacy, because at this

point you lost your loved one.

You can't rewind the videotape and say, let's go and do a reshoot here.

That's not going to happen.

So it's just negative emotion.

That's probably going to hurt you when you need to be emotionally,

physically, and mentally as fit as you can be to deal with grief.

Number one, but also number two, I don't think you love don't

want that to be done to hurt you.

They were not doing anything to hurt their loved ones.

It was just, again, whatever you want to call that illness, brain disease, whatever

chemical beltway we want to call it.

It was just the timeline of that disease process.

And I think realizing that would help deal with any potential grief that somebody has

and concentrating on the the dash between the birth and the death of somebody, its

all that counts when you remember them.

There's a saying in the Jewish religion, may their memory be a blessing and Matt's

memory is a blessing because I was blessed to have him for 32 years of I saw him.

He was a wonderful human being.

He did incredible things for so many people.

During his time here for that, I'm thankful.

Do I wish he was here?

Of course I do.

Cause he, I loved him and he was one of the funniest people

I've ever met in my life.

And I really miss seeing him every day and I miss his humor.

He made me laugh every single day, but that doesn't change

what I have in my heart.

Doesn't change what I have my memory.

It doesn't change all the good work that he did.

So I think my words of wisdom to somebody lost a loved one when they passed by

suicide is that you can concentrate on the dash, how they live, not how they died.

Interesting comment.

I think Dr.

Hunter actually mentioned that during one of our episodes with him.

Let me ask another question.

I found a document out on the CDC website and it says they've created

a package of info called preventing suicide, a technical package of

policy programs and practices.

So I've glazed through it.

I've looked at some of the different articles and stuff on it.

And they show a strategy and approach for preventing suicide.

And I think there's like seven items on the list.

Is that even possible?

You know, again, I say again, it a little humor here.

I'm not a doctorate who don't play one on TV.

I've got my own personal viewpoint about how.

The suicide prevention that medical science has done

results in effective treatment.

As a lawyer, I'm always very evidence-based and the unfortunate

statistics, the facts show that suicide is increasing at an alarming rate.

So however you want to slice or dice it, excuse me.

That's my dog barking.

And there's a, there's a thunderstorm approaching.

So I apologize.

However you want to slice and dice it.

The numbers show that the suicide rate has increased regardless of what

preventions or what treatments were done.

So I think we have to look at it that hopefully medical technology will

increase the effectiveness and the treatment modalities that can help people

with suicide and help those that have lost loved ones to suicide, to deal

with philosophers, suicide loved one.

But I think it's a work in progress to say the least, because the

numbers unfortunately are increasing, not decreasing, which is never

good for any disease process.

So, Marshall, let me ask a last question today on this episode.

So we're dealing with a pandemic we're dealing with isolation.

We're dealing with something that can actually cause physical and mental issues.

The viruses itself, I mean, a lot of people are saying they've got blood

clots in the brain and in the lungs.

As a parent in the U.S.

and you've got children that you're worried about, especially seeing the

numbers 1 in 4 or of that age group, 18 to 24, 25 could be contemplating it.

What do you, what do you tell him?

What do you recommend?

What can they do?

You know, I think all you can do is your best in the sense

that, you know, as a parent, your number one job is to protect your

children and again, I think it's the illusion and the delusion of control.

You know, I'll just tell you, my father was a complete realist and my mother

wasn't and my mother's mother was this tiny little woman who had a very

powerful personality from Eastern Europe.

And she used to tell my father that she hopes and prays and wants

nothing bad to happen to her children or children's children's and her

children's children's children.

And my father would just say that that's all good and well, but unfortunately you

can't control if something bad is gonna happen to your children, your children's

children's or your children's children.

And my dad used to be sort of funny about that, but as I've been

on the path of grief with Matt's passing, I realized my dad was right.

And all you can do is do the best you can for what you think is best

for your child band obviously get to a mental health professional.

If you think it's worded, if you think you've got to call 911, call 911.

The only alternative that you can really see that you can respond

to, if you think there's a crisis developing is medical intervention.

And is that a guarantee?

Of course not ,as I just answered the suicide numbers are increasing and if

medical technology, medical science had an answer for it, it'd be going down.

They're not going down.

The numbers are going up.

It's just, it's a fact.

But it doesn't mean you don't try to get somebody, the treatment

that you think they need.

So as a parent or as a child, if you see a parent yourself, or a spouse, or a sibling

,or a cousin or a friend or anybody that you think is struggling with mental health

issues in general or suicidal ideation in particular, get them to a mental health

professional expert as soon as possible.

Is that going to guarantee that there won't be further issues?

There won't be further problems or that there won't be a tragic

situation that could unfold.

Of course not, because it happens every day.

You know the number of veterans in the United States taking their lives.

If I remember correctly, it's about one an hour.

We've been doing this podcast for this episode about an hour now.

Statistically ,the probability, is it somebody somewhere, some veteran

in this country could have taken their life during this hour that we

just did this episode and the medical technology that we're dealing with

as one of the most sophisticated medical systems in the world.

It's not bringing the suicide numbers down, they're going up, but you

have to be very proactive and get medical, mental health professionals

involved as soon as possible.

If you think there's an issue that could result in suicidal

ideation or suicide attempt.

Thank you for sharing that.

And I know, as a dad who's lost his son.

I used to have the guilt because I felt as his dad, I should have protected him and

I should have kept them out of harm's way.

I should have known.

And you realize there's so many things out there you can't, you

can't keep track of all of them.

So where I actually thought I could protect my son, I found

out the hard way I was wrong.

I couldn't.

So thank you for sharing that today.

And I hope that helps some of the suicide survivors with the guilt that they

carry, because I don't think there's any way after you've lost a child that.

You could ever not realize you had no control to begin with.

So Marshall I'd like to thank you for coming on today's episode and

covering this very difficult topic.

We've got some other things that we'd like to discuss in the future.

And just wanted to say thank you for joining us today.

And Marshall, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic.

Well, Steve, thank you so much allowing me to talk again.

It really helps me a lot and you and I have been friends for such a long

time and we've been able to talk about our grief journey together.

And I really always appreciate your friendship and your willingness to

listen and talk about issues that are part of the grief journey.

So thank you for allowing me to talk today.

Thank you everyone.

Have a good week.

Have a good week everybody ,stay well.

Thank you for joining us on hope through grief with your

cohost Marshall Ader and Steve Smelski

We hope our episode today was helpful and informative.

Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

and will not provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.